[03:11] <greg-g> just noticed this today: the drop down arrows for editing the details of a bug has changed to the text "[edit]" on edge.  Edge only, not the main version.
[03:13] <kiko-afk> greg-g, just shift-reload.
[03:14]  * greg-g hangs head in shame
[03:14] <greg-g> thanks :)
[06:28] <LaserJock> poolie: ping
[06:29] <poolie> pong
[06:31] <LaserJock> poolie: I just filed the bug on flags for broken vcsimports
[06:32] <LaserJock> poolie: what do you mean by "branch details" page?
[06:32] <LaserJock> I can't find info for "last time it was mirrored"
[06:32] <LaserJock> or if there was an error
[06:33] <LaserJock> I'm looking specifically at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/gchemutils/trunk
[09:00] <mpt> Gooooooooooooooooooooood morning Launchpadders!
[09:33]  * wgrant pokes LP.
[09:33] <wgrant> Hm, working again.
[09:57] <katkin> nxvl: ping
[11:25] <mantiena-baltix> hello all
[11:26] <mantiena-baltix> Anybody knows why I don't get an email from rosetta with exported translation ?
[11:27] <mantiena-baltix> carlos told me yesterday, that I will get, but after about 25 hours I still don't get :(
[11:36] <mantiena-baltix> maybe po/mo export function is broken again ?
[11:55] <mantiena-baltix> cprov, wgrant: maybe you know what's a problem is with launchpad po translations export ?
[11:58] <cprov> mantiena-baltix: no, sorry.
[12:01] <mantiena-baltix> :(
[12:02] <mantiena-baltix> What should I do ? report a bug ?
[12:03] <cprov> mantiena-baltix: yes, it's always a reasonable step when you have spotted a problem :)
[12:06] <mantiena-baltix> cprov: agains which product ?
[12:08] <cprov> mantiena-baltix: rosetta
[12:39] <mantiena-baltix> kiko__:  maybe you know why I don't get an email from rosetta with link to exported po translation?
[12:39] <wgrant> mantiena-baltix: Poking random people ever half hour is probably not the best way to go about it.
[12:39] <wgrant> *every
[12:40] <wgrant> Either file a bug or ask a question on rosetta.
[12:46] <mantiena-baltix> wgrant: kiko__ is no random ;)
[12:53] <Hobbsee> mantiena-baltix: he's not a rsoetta dev, though.
[12:54] <mantiena-baltix> Hobbsee: but he helps me sometimes ;)
[12:58] <wgrant> He also only reconnected from a timeout.
[12:58] <wgrant> And has a very long tail.
[12:58] <wgrant> So he's probably not actually here.
[13:00] <mantiena-baltix> yea, it seems so
[13:45] <Hobbsee> mrevell: ah, thanks.  the mail is out :)
[13:45] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Hmph?
[13:48] <Hobbsee> mrevell: lp 2.1.4 release notes
[13:48] <Hobbsee> er, 1.2.4
[13:49]  * Hobbsee decodes the LP speak
[13:49] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Yeah, I guessed you meant that :) Thanks for the thanks
[13:51] <Hobbsee> mrevell: you're welcome
[13:51] <Hobbsee> mrevell: is it customary now to not list all the bugfixes in each LP release?
[13:51] <Hobbsee> mrevell: and only the highlights, even to the mails to lp-users?
[13:52] <mrevell> Hobbsee: I was just about to ask you what you think of the new format. The thinking goes like this: in the main release announcement, we're focusing on the big changes but linking to the milestone so people can see everything that's changed if they want to.
[13:52]  * Hobbsee nods
[13:53] <Hobbsee> mrevell: there are certainly people who do want to be able to skim through various sections of changes, but i'm unsure it's worth the extra effort required to transcribe those fixes.
[13:54] <Hobbsee> mrevell: if anything, i'd say you definetly need to put it into normal-user-speak, not launchpadesque.  I don't think the previous issues had as much of a problem with this.
[13:55] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Interesting. Can you give me an example?
[13:55] <Hobbsee> normal users don't know what distro series are, etc, and they really don't see the point in learning the terminology when bug contact suddenly switches to bug supervisor, which only changes in some roles, but is the same in others
[13:55] <Hobbsee> or pockets
[13:56] <Hobbsee> 'multiple series' - people will just go "multiple series of what?  distributions?  releases?  oysters?"
[13:57] <Hobbsee> wgrant: your thoughts on the new format?
[13:57] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Hmm, yes, I can see that the word "series" can be problematic.
[13:58] <wgrant> wgrant: I liked the old format. Having the changelog actually listing the changes is useful, but also potentially confusing.
[13:58] <wgrant> Er, Hobbsee ^^
[13:58] <Hobbsee> mrevell: as for the format itself, from my, and i suspect wgrant's POV, i'ts a major regression.  Then again, we do do a fair bit of soyuz support between us, so need to know all the changes, which we don't tend to find out about in any other way.
[13:58] <wgrant> The milestone lists are good for that, but sometimes they don't list everything.
[13:58] <Hobbsee> it's certainly useful to be able to glance down the written lists, and see it written in plain english, too
[13:58] <mrevell> This is great feedback thanks guys.
[13:58] <wgrant> Is there a Launchpad glossary around somewhere, which should describe series etc.?
[13:58] <Hobbsee> mrevell: there were more, but that stood out
[13:59] <Hobbsee> wgrant: i have a philosophical problem with that.  if it's so complex it requires a glossary, which changes every once in a while...why not pick something obvious enough that people understand it to start with, rather than having to read a manual on how to use LP?
[14:00] <wgrant> I'm not sure that the Launchpad series concept is easily compressible into a word or two.
[14:00] <mrevell> Hobbsee: One of the the reasons for not including every bug fix etc was that people interested in those bugs would probably be subscrived to them. Is that a bad assumption, in your view? Also, I think we probably will produce a more traditional changelog alongside this.
[14:00] <Hobbsee> cprov: btw, we've had user confusion over both "what does edit dependancies mean", and "so, how do i make another ppa a build dependancy of my ppa"
[14:00] <Hobbsee> mrevell: i deliberately try not to subscribe to launchpad bugs that i'm interested in.
[14:00] <Hobbsee> mrevell: at least in the area of soyuz.
[14:01] <wgrant> mrevell: A thorough changelog would be most welcome.
[14:01] <mrevell> wgrant, I think you're right - series is hard to communicate in a compact form
[14:01] <wgrant> Particularly if it appears gradually over the release, so we can see what's new on edge/dogfood/staging.
[14:01] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Why do you prefer not subscrie?
[14:01] <Hobbsee> mrevell: mainly because i want to see them get fixed, because i'm interested in them, but it's depressing to watch them get bumped back over and over, and just contributes to more mail that i get from LP globally.
[14:01] <mrevell> wgrant: Yeah, that's something that I think we will be doing - i.e. regular updates of what's new throughout the cycle.
[14:02] <mrevell> Hobbsee: From what you know of other people, do you think that's a typical behaviour?>
[14:02] <Hobbsee> i can't really help them being bumped back - it's not my call - but i would prefer not to know exactly how much stuff i want to see is being pushed back - i'd prefer to be surprised about when it'll actually be done.
[14:02] <wgrant> mrevell: That would be very, very good.
[14:02] <Hobbsee> mrevell: i'm not sure.  I can't see that many users do subscribe to many launchpad bugs at all, actually.
[14:03] <mrevell> wgrant: I can't promise it for 1.2.5, but I'm hoping to be able to do it. I need to look at the most efficient way of doing it.
[14:03] <Hobbsee> mrevell: from what i've noticed, it's usually developers subscribed.
[14:03] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Developers of what? LP? or the project?
[14:03] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Sorry, forget that
[14:03] <Hobbsee> mrevell: er, yes, sorry :)
[14:03] <mrevell> Hobbsee: I got confused :)
[14:03] <Hobbsee> np, i was unclear.
[14:03] <Hobbsee> mrevell: i think there's a time and a place for both
[14:03] <mrevell> Do you think the new format was useful, though, if we had the old format too?
[14:04] <Hobbsee> right, yes, that's what i mean
[14:04] <Hobbsee> if the new format went to the blog, etc.
[14:04] <mrevell> So, we lead with the new format but make the old changelog available at help.launchpad.net/LaunchpadReleases/1.2.x and link to it from the new version.
[14:04] <Hobbsee> the lp users ML clearly has people interested in how launchpad is really giong, so i'd expect them to find the old-form more useful than the new one
[14:05] <Hobbsee> mrevell: it's useful to have stuff like that all in an email, for those who read email while offline / on pathetic connections / etc.
[14:05] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Right, that's an interesting point.
[14:05] <Hobbsee> so i'd suggest that the new format goes to the blog, and anywhere else, but the lp-users list gets the full version
[14:05] <spiv> Well, it's a matter of who the audience is.  I'm not sure what level we consider the launchpad-users list to be at.
[14:06] <Hobbsee> spiv: if they're using rosetta a lot, then they're probably interested in all the rosetta changes, in plain english, would be my view.
[14:06] <wgrant> I think the new form is good for launchpad-users, with the new one going to launchpad-devel, but that's of course private.
[14:06] <spiv> If we do put an in-depth changelog on a website, potentially we could make an RSS feed of that, and people that care can automatically fetch that feed an read it offline just as easily as email.
[14:06] <wgrant> Although launchpad-users people aren't as clueless as ubuntu-users.
[14:06] <Hobbsee> spiv: now there's a good idea.
[14:06] <spiv> Anyway, that's just some drive-by comments, it's bedtime for me!
[14:07] <spiv> I'll leave you in mrevell's capable (and probably better-informed) hands.
[14:07] <Hobbsee> night spiv!
[14:07] <Hobbsee> spiv: and well done for surviving a meeting with the evil Hobbsee with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!™
[14:07] <Hobbsee> :P
[14:07] <mrevell> hey spiv, thanks for the input :)
[14:08] <Hobbsee> mrevell: have you considered emailing lp-users to see which they'd find more useful?
[14:08] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Absolutely, and I will do. Thanks for the suggestion
[14:09] <Hobbsee> mrevell: it seems pretty clear about the rest of the places you release to, though
[14:09] <Hobbsee> mrevell: you're welcome :)
[14:09] <mrevell> Hobbsee: Yeah, I think the new format is best for most places.
[14:10] <mrevell> launchpad-users may be a different case, although the new format would still go there.
[14:10] <Hobbsee> yeah, it may be a good thing for both to go there.  i'm not sure
[18:28] <nxvl> katkin: hi
[18:40] <nxvl> gmb: did you have any news?
[18:41] <nxvl> gmb: i haven't receive any e-mail
[18:47] <gmb> nxvl: I spoke to the person who's responsible for the shop. They'll get in touch with you by email. If you haven't heard anything by this time tomorrow let me know and I'll chase it up for you.
[18:47] <katkin> nxvl: my colleague cezzaine will drop you an e-mail tomorrow to ask for more details from you and we'll look into it asap for you
[18:48] <nxvl> gmb: thnx
[18:48] <nxvl> katkin: alright!
[18:48] <katkin> nxvl: if you haven't heard from her by close of play tomorrow please drop her an e-mail : cezzaine@canonical.com and copy me in kat@canonical.com
[18:48] <katkin> nxvl: we'll get it sorted asap for you eitherway
[18:48] <nxvl> katkin: the problem is that the amount has been discounted, but i can't find the order on mi history
[18:49] <katkin> nxvl: discounted? taken from your account?
[18:49] <nxvl> katkin: so i'm affraid you are discharging the amount and not sending me the order
[18:49] <nxvl> katkin: yes
[18:49] <nxvl> katkin: i will paste the line, give me 1 second
[18:49] <katkin> nxvl: ok, well we will look into it as soon as possible for you
[18:49] <katkin> nxvl: I'm leaving for the day now 
[18:50] <katkin> nxvl: in actual fact, feel free to write a mail to cezzaine copying me in now and we can get on to it first thing tomorrow
[18:50] <katkin> nxvl: thanks, bye
[18:54] <nxvl> gmb: their mails are {katkin , cezzaine } At c.c?
[18:54] <nxvl> oh! i miss on line
[18:54] <nxvl> gmb: nevermind
[18:55] <gmb> No worrie :)
[18:55]  * gmb can't spell...
[18:59] <Rinchen>  [19:03] <thumper> abentley: meeting time
[19:04] <abentley> Oh, that meeting.
[19:21] <Rinchen> changed mtg time to next week
[21:59] <cjwatson> Hey folks. Could a Launchpad admin please change /ubuntu/intrepid's upload status to "Development" for me?
[22:00] <cjwatson> I think it's spelled "Active Development" actually.
[22:08] <elmo> done
[22:10] <cjwatson> elmo: cheers
[22:42] <madyogi> :q
[22:51] <stdin> hmm, why did I receive build failure emails from someone else's (personal) ppa?
[23:19] <joh> What would be the bzr/launchpad equivalent of SVN tags? Series or branches?
[23:21] <mwhudson> well, the bzr equivalent is tags
[23:21] <mwhudson> i guess you could say the launchpad is series, sorta, though that more reflects a branch
[23:22] <joh> Ok, so what's the difference between a series and a branch?
[23:22] <joh> Say I wanted to "tag" my trunk branch as a release.
[23:22] <mwhudson> well, a series 'has-a' branch
[23:22] <joh> ok
[23:23] <joh> a series has one and only one branch?
[23:23] <mwhudson> yep
[23:23] <joh> So in a way a series only adds metadata and launchpad-specific features to a branch?
[23:23] <mwhudson> there is a concept of a 'release' in launchpad
[23:23] <mwhudson> (which is associated to a series)
[23:23] <mwhudson> but there's no way of saying this release is this tag in this branch
[23:24] <mwhudson> (you upload a tarball instead, generally speaking)
[23:24] <joh> Ok, so I first have to create a new branch, then a new release series and then link the tarballs to the new series?
[23:25] <mwhudson> i guess i don't know what you're trying to achieve
[23:25] <joh> Well, right now my release is shown under the "trunk" series
[23:26] <mwhudson> your options depend a bit on how complex your project is
[23:26] <joh> Not very complex, no
[23:26] <mwhudson> if you just have one line of development, releasing every so often, then having your releases in the trunk series sounds fine
[23:27] <joh> Ok, in what situations would it be a good idea to do otherwise?
[23:27] <mwhudson> well, like cpython
[23:27] <mwhudson> where you release say 2.5
[23:27] <mwhudson> then the mainline contains development towards 2.6
[23:27] <mwhudson> but there's still a line of development for 2.5.1, 2.5.2
[23:27] <joh> Ah ok
[23:28] <mwhudson> in general launchpad is imo pretty good at modelling really quite complicated development
[23:28] <mwhudson> it does make it all a bit overwhelming in the simpler cases though
[23:28] <joh> Yeah, my experience exactly
[23:29] <mwhudson> i guess the motivating example for lots of stuff in lp is ubuntu: that's pretty darned complex :)
[23:29] <joh> Hehe, yep :-)
[23:30] <mwhudson> it's probably the better way to go though, support the complicated stuff then try to make the simple experience better
[23:30] <mwhudson> rather than trying to build the complexity onto a simple system
[23:30] <mwhudson> though, well, arguments both ways i guess
[23:31] <joh> Yeah, makes sense.