[00:09] <cjwatson> seven more characters ...
[00:11] <azeem> cjwatson: Canonical should buy the w.ubun.tu domain for the wiki, to safe /topic pace
[00:11] <azeem> space*
[00:11] <cjwatson> heh
[00:12] <azeem> you could do s#dapper/feisty/gutsy## now, maybe
[00:12] <TheMuso> crimsun: Ok, with the changes in the config file for pulse, using dmix, the startup sound starts playing, but then stops.
[00:12] <TheMuso> crimsun: This is on my amd64 box.
[00:13] <crimsun> TheMuso: hmm, so "cut off abruptly"?  Interesting.  Any ~/.xsession-errors or syslog debugging?
[00:13] <TheMuso> crimsun: Actually, pulseaudio crashed.
[00:14] <TheMuso> Hang on, I only used the config change. I'll ahve to rebuild it.
[00:16] <crimsun> hopefully you don't [still, possibly] have pcm & ctl pulse set in an asoundrc :-)
[00:17] <TheMuso> crimsun: Nothing is set asoundrc wise. This is a fresh install of hardy amd64, as of last night.
[00:17] <crimsun> ok
[00:22] <TheMuso> crimsun: Ok, same behavior. Pulse/alsa via dmix work fine, but no startup sound.
[00:22] <TheMuso> Checking gnome-sound-properties now to see if I still get the caching error.
[00:22] <TheMuso> Yep, I do.
[00:22] <crimsun> does it show it in ~/.xsession-errors or elsewhere?
[00:23] <TheMuso> Let me check.
[00:26] <TheMuso> crimsun: Only that the sample is too long/sample caching errors from the startup sound.
[00:26] <crimsun> that's odd.
[00:26] <crimsun> I'll try with a fresh user.
[00:27] <TheMuso> All my tests have been conducted on fresh installs.
[00:28] <TheMuso> crimsun: http://www.pastebin.ca/1003438 from syslog
[00:31] <crimsun> TheMuso: ok, for sanity-check, please pastebin your /etc/pulse/default.pa
[00:32] <TheMuso> crimsun: http://www.pastebin.ca/1003445
[00:35] <crimsun> ok, that looks good
[00:35] <cjwatson> azeem: but I already got enough space so there's no need to optimise further
[00:36] <crimsun> TheMuso: I can't reproduce it on any hardware locally, but I'll try to chase it down with a desktop cd
[00:36] <crimsun> TheMuso: thanks for testing
[00:36] <TheMuso> crimsun: I'll test on other boxes with other sound hardware as well.
[00:36] <TheMuso> crimsun: np.
[00:37] <azeem> cjwatson: oh come on, it's only 0:30AM and you're done with optimzations already!?!
[00:41] <Keybuk> I wish there were a way to tell valgrind not to bother about child processes
[00:41] <Keybuk> of course there's a zillion reachable bytes when I exec(), I'm hardly going to bother freeing them, am I?!
[00:42] <slangasek> you should obviously be freeing them in a fini
[00:43] <Keybuk> I personally consider exec() to be a great big free() from god
[00:43] <Keybuk> I have similar feelings about exit()
[00:44] <alex-weej> youtube does JS detection of a flash plugin and directs users to Adobe's web if not found
[00:44] <alex-weej> and it's quite common expectation that "go to adobe.com" is the way to install flash if a user doesn't have it installed
[00:44] <alex-weej> i was thinking we could subvert the whole thing by installing a sort of stub flash plugin
[00:45] <Keybuk> alex-weej: I've been nagging adobe about that
[00:45] <alex-weej> about providing instructions on using APT?
[00:45] <alex-weej> or about providing their own debs?
[00:45] <Keybuk> about improving that general experiance
[00:45] <Keybuk> if you land at that page in Ubuntu, it should just work
[00:45] <alex-weej> well i think the blame lies partly on web developers
[00:45] <Keybuk> ironically including a flash animation on that page would make it work
[00:46] <alex-weej> yeah
[00:46] <alex-weej> so how about we create a stub flash plugin that will respond positively to the detection routines
[00:46] <alex-weej> yet will trigger the proper installation
[00:46] <Keybuk> is that possible?
[00:47] <Keybuk> and would there be odd side effects?
[00:47] <alex-weej> i don't know why it shouldn't be
[00:47] <johanbr> Youtube seems to detect Gnash correctly, so I'm sure it's possible.
[00:47] <alex-weej> and swfdec
[00:47] <alex-weej> i think it just detects if there's a handler for the MIME object type
[00:48] <alex-weej> it may be easier to circumvent that inside mozilla
[00:48] <alex-weej> but doing it with a stub plugin may be less intrusive
[00:48] <johanbr> And I suspect it might be more fruitful to nag Google than Adobe.
[00:49] <alex-weej> why Google?
[00:49] <johanbr> Well, their Youtube division.
[00:49] <alex-weej> oh, of course
[00:49] <alex-weej> but there is still a lot of other websites that do detection
[00:49] <alex-weej> they think they're being clever
[00:49] <alex-weej> and all make the fatal misassumption that "go to adobe.com" is a universal instruction
[00:51] <alex-weej> so if it's possible, what's the consensus? good idea?
[00:52]  * Nafallo votes yes
[00:58] <alex-weej> or can anyone think of a better way of dealing with the JS detection?
[01:00] <sladen> alex-weej: find some individual example pages, and just see what they're doing
[01:01] <sladen> alex-weej: they're all going to copying each other, so after 5-6 combinations it should be possible to have covered the bases
[01:02] <alex-weej> IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.6"))
[01:03] <alex-weej> maybe that's user functions...
[01:03] <alex-weej> oh wait it's VBScript, haha
[01:03] <alex-weej> for IE/Win on one particular site (www.anjunabeats.com)
[01:04] <sladen> simplest way is  <embed ...>Go to <a href="http://www.adobe.com/">Adobe.com</a></embed>   which is what the Beeb appear to be doing
[01:04] <alex-weej> navigator.plugins["Shockwave Flash"]
[01:05] <sladen> alex-weej: Or, provide the plugin.  And as soon as it gets called in anger, call out tothe install assistent
[01:05] <alex-weej> sladen: doesn't that method trigger the plugin installation tho?
[01:06] <alex-weej> sladen: what, my original suggestion? :)
[01:06] <sladen> alex-weej: The example above will display  <a href...>  in the case that the embed is not run
[01:07] <alex-weej> yes but the <embed> will trigger the install assistant anyway, right?
[01:07] <sladen> alex-weej: I guess so :)
[01:07] <alex-weej> even if it says "go to adobe.com" :(
[01:07] <sladen> don't know.  try lots of things
[01:07] <alex-weej> apturl and collaboration from adobe may be the best long term strategy tbh
[01:08] <alex-weej> there is still some worth in not jumping the gun when the plugins array is looked ats
[01:08] <alex-weej> *at
[01:12] <cjwatson> ok, 3300-odd lines of dpkg diff left to deal with one way or another; bedtime
[01:12] <cjwatson> actually, more like 2800 when you discount the stuff at the top that I know I'm keeping
[01:13] <soren> cjwatson: You're doing the dpkg merge?
[01:13] <cjwatson> yes
[01:13] <cjwatson> I mentioned it earlier
[01:13] <soren> Ah, I must have missed it as I ran out the door.
[01:13] <cjwatson> you haven't started, have you?
[01:14] <soren> Oh, dear god, no.
[01:14] <cjwatson> ok, good, I didn't fancy merging two merges
[01:14] <soren> I'm surprised there's that much of a diff, though?
[01:14] <soren> Triggers landed in Debian now, right?
[01:15] <soren> That used to account for most of the merge.
[01:16] <soren> packages.d.o confirms my suspicion.
[01:16] <cjwatson> they reindented it on the way in so it's taking a while to verify
[01:16] <cjwatson> I don't want to just assume it's the same, that no bug-fixes got lost, or that there's no upgrade handling to do
[01:18] <soren> YEah, I've run into that a few times, too. What I've done a few times was to run the two files through "diff -w" and let that weed out the formatting differences.
[01:19] <cjwatson> I'm doing that kind of thing, sure
[01:19] <soren> *shrug* I'm sure you'll work it out.
[01:19] <cjwatson> it's not all just whitespace though
[01:19]  * ScottK is glad to find out the whole triggers mess did not in fact cause a fork between Debian and Ubuntu in the package.
[01:20] <soren> Well... It did for while.
[01:22] <Keybuk> ugh, merges ;)
[01:25] <Keybuk> was it something I said? :)
[01:27] <ScottK> Heh
[01:27] <ScottK> How is the merger of MoM and DaD coming along?
[01:28] <Keybuk> I have some patches
[01:28] <Keybuk> I'm still getting MoM back on her feet
[01:29] <jdong> 20:27 < ScottK> How is the merger of MoM and DaD coming along?
[01:29] <jdong> *grin*
[01:29] <jdong> you walked right into that one ;-)
[01:30] <ScottK> jdong: Did you find out if today's LP upgrade includes fixing the breakage in Main backports?
[01:30] <jdong> ScottK: sorry, no time
[01:30] <ScottK> I guess we'll know shortly.
[01:32] <RzR> cjwatson: as saifouch
[01:32] <RzR> ouch
[01:39] <Amaranth> kees: why is bug 223865 a compiz bug? looks like gnome-screensaver just isn't locking fast enough
[01:40] <Amaranth> also, why is ubottu allowed to see security bugs?
[01:40] <kees> Amaranth: it's not a private bug
[01:41] <Amaranth> I thought security meant private
[01:41] <kees> Amaranth: no, security is security, private is private.  :)
[01:41] <kees> Amaranth: anyway, I haven't investigated it, but I can't reproduce it _without_ compiz
[01:41] <Amaranth> Can you reproduce it _with_ compiz?
[01:42] <kees> g-s should be locked prior to hibernation.  yeah, my hardy laptop flashes the screen for me too
[01:42] <Amaranth> I can only successfully hibernate when I get rid of the nvidia driver so I can't test hibernation with compiz
[01:42] <kees> Amaranth: ah, I'm on ati
[01:42] <Amaranth> Does it happen when you use metacity compositing?
[01:43] <jdong> oh is that the bug that locking the screen isn't actually a blocking command?
[01:43] <Amaranth> no, that was fixed long ago
[01:43] <Amaranth> first with a hack in compiz, then properly in the X server
[01:43] <jdong> ah
[01:48] <Keybuk> I do hope that my little bzr push didn't take down LP ;)
[03:22] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh, so you're the one to blame!
[03:23]  * ion_ sings "Blame Keybuk" to the melody of "Blame Canada"
[03:29] <TheMuso> A curse on projects with no officially known vcs repo, no bug tracker, and no one place to find patches. It is not fun jumping from distro to distro just to get patches for a package.
[03:29] <Keybuk> TheMuso: sadly that means you just cursed most of base ;)
[03:30] <StevenK> Haha
[03:30] <TheMuso> Keybuk: I only had one package in mind when I said that, but I'll take your word for it.
[03:30] <Keybuk> TheMuso: which?
[03:30] <TheMuso> dmraid
[03:30] <Keybuk> eww ;)
[03:31] <Keybuk> e.g. where's the fsck home page? :)
[03:31] <TheMuso> Yeah well we have Microsoft to thank for that mess.
[03:31] <TheMuso> In not allowing software RAID 1-5 to be used in consumer OSs.
[03:32] <StevenK> I could have sworn e2fsprogs has a home page
[03:32] <ajmitch> StevenK: you mean some antique page on gnu.org or similar?
[03:32] <StevenK> Ah, I was thinking of fsck.ext[23], not fsck itself
[03:51] <ffm> How do I report a bug against the ubuntu release notes?
[03:51] <ffm> It's a major omission, that hda>sda from dapper to hardy.
[03:54] <Hobbsee> slangasek: ^
[03:56] <bd_> hmm, they enabled libata by default?
[03:56]  * bd_ has been on custom kernels precisely to use libata for a while now
[03:56] <TheMuso> bd_: Libata has been enabled since edgy.
[03:57] <bd_> TheMuso: really? I could've sworn it was using legacy IDE for my cd-rom not long ago...
[03:57] <TheMuso> bd_: I think it depends on the chipset.
[03:57] <bd_> possibly
[03:58] <bd_> I mean, my sata drive was on libata ofc
[04:03] <ffm> so..
[04:10] <bd_> ffm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug choose "I don't know" for the package
[04:10] <ffm> bd_: I'm triaging, already filed.
[04:11] <bd_> ah
[04:11] <LaserJock> I would think a bug report would not be the best place to do that
[04:14] <bd_> where else would it be reported?
[04:14] <LaserJock> ubuntu-devel mailing list would be the most appropriate I would think
[04:14] <ffm> LaserJock: You can report bugs in ubuntu-website
[04:14] <LaserJock> ffm: I'm fully aware of that
[04:15] <LaserJock> but the release notes are not written by the ubuntu-website people
[04:15] <ffm> LaserJock: Unfortunately I'm not at a full session right now, and email is down.
[04:15] <ffm> LaserJock: Who writes thems?
[04:15] <ffm> then
[04:15] <ffm> them
[04:15] <LaserJock> the release manager
[04:15] <ffm> LaserJock: Who is...
[04:15] <LaserJock> slangasek
[04:15] <LaserJock> which is why Hobbsee pinged him
[04:15] <crimsun> (I think ubuntu-devel-discuss@ is more appropriate, actually.)
[04:16] <LaserJock> crimsun: yeah
[04:16] <ffm> Do I have to subscribe to post to the lists?
[04:16] <TheMuso> I thought launchpad was down...
[04:16] <ffm> I'm already swamped fronm wiki-en-l.
[04:16] <TheMuso> Oh it should be back up by now
[04:16] <crimsun> ffm: no, the post will just be moderated
[04:21] <ffm> Ok, any of you people here mods that can get me through the posting queue quickly?
[04:23] <ffm> (Thanks for all the help, btw)
[04:29] <cody-somerville> Gah. My city is flooded :(
[04:30] <cody-somerville> This is a picture of downtown: http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v238/99/87/556140141/n556140141_2901289_3517.jpg
[04:30] <cody-somerville> I wonder how I'm going to get to work in the morning.
[04:31] <StevenK> cody-somerville: Swim
[04:31] <LaserJock> cody-somerville: :(
[04:32] <LaserJock> we're having an earthquake swarm here
[04:32] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it gives you something to talk about, at least :)
[04:32] <LaserJock> ;-)
[04:33] <cody-somerville> I dunno if you can see those facebook pictures but here is another startling one: http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v238/99/87/556140141/n556140141_2901238_9117.jpg
[04:34] <LaserJock> holy cow
[04:34] <cody-somerville> Here is a funny one: http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v238/99/87/556140141/n556140141_2901205_7289.jpg
[04:35] <jdong> intrepid coming soon?
[04:35] <jdong> :)
[04:47] <TheMuso> jdong: Colin shortened it earlier to make sure all the needed bits would fit into the topic.,
[05:49] <RyanPrior> Is Intrepid open for upload?
[05:54] <StevenK> Not yet.
[05:54] <RyanPrior> I'm seeing Intrepid packages in the Ubuntu package search...
[05:54] <bd_> RyanPrior: yes, it's currently being prepared
[05:54] <RyanPrior> Alright, cool.
[05:54] <bd_> right now it's mostly the same as hardy, but several core toolchain packages are being updated
[05:55] <bd_> once they're in, it'll be opened up for universe sync and normal uploads
[05:55] <RyanPrior> Exciting. :-)
[12:20] <squid_> why does apt-get upgrade wait for a friggin minute or two before understanding "this host is down, lets try another" ??
[12:21] <squid_> this is very annyoing..
[12:22] <cjwatson> standard TCP timeout I imagine
[12:22] <cjwatson> you don't need to add colourful language either
[12:24] <squid_> cjwatson: how anamic
[12:24] <cjwatson> referring to what? (I assume you meant anaemic)
[12:24] <squid_> s/anamic/anaemic/
[12:25] <cjwatson> in some environments it does take quite a while to make a TCP connection, you know
[12:25] <squid_> cjwatson: care to provide an example?
[12:26] <cjwatson> so timeouts are always a trade-off between speed of detecting when a host is really down, and coping with slow links
[12:26] <cjwatson> err, very heavily loaded networks of course :)
[12:26] <squid_> don't be too colorful and add smileys when you speak, you might raise the channel temperature (laugh)
[12:27] <cjwatson> if you object to the timeouts in TCP, you can address your complaints to its authors; it doesn't really make sense to fiddle it application-by-application
[12:30] <knewt> don't know if there's somewhere else that would be better for this, but doesn't seem to be anyone on #ubuntu able to help. security.ubuntu.com, although pinging ok, isn't responding to http
[12:32] <cjwatson> knewt: I *suspect* it's just very slow, but at any rate #canonical-sysadmin would be the best place to enquire about sysadmin issues
[12:32] <squid_> cjwatson: a better way to deal with that is to do multipe runs. eg. you try all hosts for archive.ubuntu.com and wait only 2 seconds between each. then next round you increase that delay drastically, to allow for slower links to get a chance.. see? it's not a good idea in general to shove responsability over to someone else saying "this is a fact of TCP" etc. i'm sure it could be handled if one bothered.
[12:32] <knewt> cjwatson: ta
[12:33] <cjwatson> squid_: which would substantially *increase* general network load and seems rather anti-social
[12:33] <cjwatson> it's sort of the equivalent of a child bouncing up and down in the back seat shouting "are we there yet?"
[12:34] <squid_> cjwatson: perhaps so, but would allow for better usability for a lot of people on fast lines
[12:34] <squid_> cjwatson: you are most colorful.
[12:34] <cjwatson> you're welcome to select a different mirror which is less heavily loaded
[12:35] <squid_> i don't know how, and i'm somewhat familiar to ubuntu
[12:35] <squid_> expecting that from your users is not a good solution
[12:35] <cjwatson> System -> Administration -> Software Sources
[12:35] <squid_> also that info is not given while i'm waiting for a connection.
[12:36] <cjwatson> it might allow for better usability if it just did it for you, but I think you'll find that if it did it for everyone it would make matters worse rather than better
[12:36] <squid_> you seem to not listen and rather provide quick fixes - i may be talking to myself. anyways i have things to do
[12:36] <cjwatson> what a nice chap
[13:07] <snikker> when i insert a cd/dvd in a second dvd drive, the system don't mount it and in dmesg, i've got this: http://pastebin.com/m1cc3d71c
[13:46]  * lamont wonders why his ctl and shift keys magically quit working under X
[13:46] <Hobbsee> lamont: oh, you're still getting that?
[13:47] <lamont> well, not sure when the previous reboot was...
[13:48] <lamont> Sun Apr 27 19:20
[13:48] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[13:48] <Hobbsee> my version of that got fixed.
[13:48] <lamont> mind you, it actually was working inside of the windoze client in vmware
[13:48] <lamont> and ctl-alt-backspace provided no love, since it included ctl
[13:49] <hwilde> my motherboard is making beeps like space invaders running on the livecd
[13:52] <Hobbsee> lamont: hit hte logout icon.
[13:52] <lamont> yeah - that's how I eventually escaped...
[13:52] <hwilde> and it keeps logging out of the gui like ctrl+alt+backspace or something
[13:52] <lamont> since ctl-alt-f1 suffered a very similary uh, issue
[13:53] <lamont> hwilde: neat
[13:55] <hwilde> yes it would be interesting if my current development did not depend on this functioning normally
[13:56] <hwilde> I didn't even know the onboard buzzer could make such an array of beeps
[14:02] <cjwatson> hwilde: that's happening on one of my systems, but under general load as well as just on the live CD; I blame a loose connection somewhere but haven't investigated
[14:03] <hwilde> cjwatson, in the terminal it is registering keypress charcters  ^[[C^[[C^[[D
[14:03] <hwilde> but I unplugged the kb and mouse and it continued
[14:04] <cjwatson> soren: do you happen to remember what was actually wrong with dpkg when you fixed it like this?
[14:04] <cjwatson>   * Fix wrong call to open in Dpkg/Control.pm that makes using a different
[14:04] <cjwatson>     control file than debian/control fail horribly.
[14:04] <cjwatson> soren: your change seems to have been:
[14:04] <cjwatson> -    open(CDATA, "<", $file) || syserr(_g("cannot read %s"), $file);
[14:04] <cjwatson> +    open(CDATA, "< $file") || syserr(_g("cannot read %s"), $file);
[14:04] <cjwatson> soren: but three-arg open should work perfectly well, so I don't quite understand
[14:08] <geser> cjwatson: that was as dpkg broke create-dbg-syms
[14:08] <cjwatson> geser: I'm aware of that, but *why* did that break? As far as I know those two lines are equivalent
[14:09] <geser> iirc create-dbg-syms used stdin as $file
[14:09] <cjwatson> ah
[14:10] <geser> and the three-arg-syntax didn't parse - as stdin but as a filename
[14:10] <cjwatson> so the changelog is misleading
[14:12] <hwilde> cjwatson, do you have a serial or usb tty connected to that machine?  try disabling brltty.  the beeps do not occur until that process loads on startup
[14:12] <cjwatson> hwilde: no, I don't
[14:13] <hwilde> cjwatson, "detected unknown HandyTech model with ID 28" says brltty
[14:13] <cjwatson> it's not anywhere near that predictable, it seems to be heat-related
[14:13] <cjwatson> sounds like we have wildly different problems
[14:13] <hwilde> cjwatson, brltty is grabbing one of my serial->usb inputs on the tty and trying to read its input like it's abraille touchpad
[14:37]  * lamont wonders where the 'smake' package went in hardy?
[14:37] <azeem> are you missing it?
[14:37] <broonie> lamont: Licensing issues with upstream?
[14:38] <lamont> broonie: I'd have expected it to land in multiverse?
[14:38] <azeem> lamont: Debian dropped it as well
[14:38] <broonie> Would it not get automagically kicked when it vanished from Debian?
[14:39] <Amaranth> cody-somerville: Head for higher ground :)
[14:40]  * cody-somerville wades towards Amaranth riding a wild mountain goat.
[14:42] <lamont> Hobbsee: and my USB thumb drive still doesn't automount, since consolekit has decided that I don't need any sessions
[14:55] <cjwatson> broonie: ish
[14:55] <cjwatson> semi-automagically anyway
[14:58]  * ogra wonders why he has a ubuntu package search item in his FF searchbar but no LP bugs item :/
[15:46] <johmathe> hi there
[15:46] <johmathe> I've a problem, I'm trying to backport a package from debian lenny to ubuntu 6.06LTS
[15:47] <johmathe> So I take all the .dsc .diff.gz and .orig.tar.gz
[15:47] <johmathe> dpkg-source -x package.dsc
[15:47] <johmathe> dpkg-buildpackage and dpkg -i package
[15:47] <johmathe> everything works perfectly untill the package installatio
[15:48] <cjwatson> what's the error?
[15:48] <johmathe> when I install the pacakge I get this error : Template #1 in /var/lib/dpkg/info/mimedefang.templates does not contain a 'Template:' line
[15:48] <cjwatson> that's probably slight changes in po-debconf
[15:48] <johmathe> It apparently because the file has 4 blank lines before to begin
[15:48] <cjwatson> let me just have a quick look and confirm
[15:48] <johmathe> when I remove the lines, it works
[15:49] <cjwatson> johmathe: right, to backport it, after dpkg-source -x, edit debian/templates and remove the comment block and the subsequent blank line from the start of the file
[15:49] <cjwatson> then build
[15:49] <johmathe> ok nice
[15:49]  * johmathe tries
[15:50] <cjwatson> debconf/po-debconf (I forget exactly where the change was, sorry) have got a bit more liberal since 6.06 and people have started taking advantage of that fairly widely
[15:52] <johmathe> ok it appears to works
[15:52] <johmathe> cjwatson: thanx a lot
[15:52] <cjwatson> you're welcome
[15:57] <cjwatson> Keybuk: can MoM be taught to look at experimental for certain nominated packages?
[15:58] <Keybuk> it can
[16:01] <cjwatson> Keybuk: can we do it for dpkg (once there's a dpkg in experimental, but there will be)?
[16:04] <Keybuk> yes
[16:04] <Keybuk> tell me when I need to add it
[16:06] <cjwatson> ok, will do, thanks
[16:26] <hwilde> !help
[16:26] <hwilde> !ask
[16:26] <hwilde> there we go
[16:27] <Spads> !HALP
[16:27] <hwilde> lol
[16:29] <hwilde> cjwatson, is vfat supported automatically in the install cd when detecting partitions?
[16:29] <cjwatson> hwilde: should be, yes
[16:33] <BenB> hi... I am trying to install ubuntu from a USB stick, but it's a tough ride...
[16:34] <BenB> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick fails entirely, at least with 8.04. the boot image is not even found by syslinux, it seems to try to put full paths into 8.3 filenames, resuling in a "install./vm" instead of "install/vmlinuz"
[16:34] <BenB> got past that, but more problems later on. gave up.
[16:34] <BenB> now I try to use https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html
[16:35] <BenB> but the ISO file copied to the USB stick (FAT), as instructed there, is not found.
[16:35] <hwilde> ... because the installer does not have automatic vfat support
[16:35] <BenB> when I got into a shell, and did mkdir /source; mount /dev/sda1 /source/, it says "Invalid argument". same with -t vfat. when I do modprobe vfat first, it works. I'm told that's a bug?
[16:36] <cjwatson> hwilde: *blink* more details?
[16:36] <hwilde> there BenB  finally got around to it :)
[16:36] <cjwatson> oh, er, you two are working together
[16:36] <BenB> even then, the installer does not find and use the iso file. I have no options in the installer menu to make it use that, only options about mirror servers.
[16:36] <hwilde> install wouldn't work until he modprobed vfat
[16:36] <cjwatson> ok, I'm on the phone, can you please stick around and I'll get back to you?
[16:36] <BenB> cjwatson: sure
[16:37]  * cjwatson notes that iso-scan does at least try modprobe vfat
[16:37] <BenB> I'd be really nice to have ready-made USB stick images in addition to the ISO images, given that USB sticks are very common these days and appropriate for initial install.
[16:38]  * BenB will try iso-scan on the shell whiel cjwatson is on the phone
[16:38] <cjwatson> erm
[16:38] <cjwatson> iso-scan isn't a program you can run easily unless you're familiar with d-i, so don't do that :)
[16:38] <cjwatson> I'm just thinking out loud
[16:39] <hwilde> and whatever you do, don't call it gparted :)
[16:39] <BenB> yeah, noticed now :)
[16:40] <BenB> hwilde: right. I'm not a friend of anything that parts my harddrisks.
[16:41] <Lightkey> tkamppeter!
[16:41] <Lightkey> ;p
[16:41] <hwilde> you scared him off
[16:41] <Lightkey> definitely
[16:54] <cjwatson> BenB: ok, so firstly the quick answer: I definitely agree that we should have an easier way to get USB images. I don't think it can really be ready-made images, because that means we essentially double the number of 700MB blobs we're shipping around, which would be difficult from an admin point of view, but I want to ship an application for Linux and Windows that does the conversion in one step
[16:55] <cjwatson> BenB: secondly, boot-usb-files is unfortunately not all that clear, so let me check what you're doing. I assume that you're following the "flexible way" approach (or you wouldn't be copying in an ISO file). It unfortunately doesn't link to the proper places to retrieve vmlinuz and initrd.gz; where did you fetch those from?
[16:56] <hwilde> how about a java applet that you click on that takes over your windows machine and installs ubuntu? :)
[16:56] <BenB> hwilde: haha
[16:56] <BenB> cjwatson: I did:
[16:57] <BenB> 1. zcat boot.img.gz > /dev/sdb1; mounted it and noticed that the filesystem is only 16 MB large. so, next try:
[16:58] <BenB> 2. gunzip boot.img; mount -o loop boot.img /mnt/1/; mkfs.vfat /dev/sdb1; mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/2/; cp -a /mnt/1/ /mnt/2/
[16:58] <cjwatson> (1. would actually have worked, it'd just have retrieved *everything* over the network)
[16:58] <BenB> cp ubuntu-...804....iso /mnt/2/;
[16:58] <cjwatson> which boot.img?
[16:59] <BenB> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy/main/installer-i386/current//images/netboot/boot.img.gz
[16:59] <BenB> (linked on https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html )
[16:59] <cjwatson> ok, you have to use hd-media in order to add an .iso image
[16:59] <cjwatson> I apologise that the documentation is not clear here
[17:00] <cjwatson> you either use netboot and no .iso image (in which case it retrieves everything over the network) or hd-media and an .iso image (in which case it uses it)
[17:00] <BenB> fine with me, as long as the next person won't run into the same problem :)
[17:00] <BenB> ah, clear
[17:00] <cjwatson> I'll update the documentation, though I'd appreciate it if you can try this out to confirm that there's nothing else I've missed
[17:00] <BenB> of course
[17:01] <cjwatson> though it would help me if you could file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/installation-guide/+filebug about it so that I have a handy justification for the stable update
[17:01] <BenB> ok
[17:02]  * BenB tried that, will take a while
[17:02] <BenB> tries
[17:02] <cjwatson> hmm, hd-media is a 256MB image
[17:02] <cjwatson> that's not especially convenient
[17:02]  * ogra thinks we should just have an option in gfxboot in the future: create USB installer from CD :)
[17:02] <cjwatson> you have to make a filesystem of the right size with mkdosfs and copy the files in
[17:02] <cjwatson> ogra: how were you planning to boot as far as gfxboot without a CD? :-)
[17:03] <ogra> cjwatson, you need a machine with CD indeed, but then it will just dump the squashfs onto an usb key and make it bootable :)
[17:03] <cjwatson> let's just leave it at "an application" for now. :-)
[17:04] <ogra> well, i guess we'll discuss it in detail in prague :)
[17:04]  * ogra is just brainstorming
[17:05] <BenB> ogra: I'd prefer something where I don't have to run any executables on the preparing machine.
[17:05] <BenB> (apart from stock ones like zcat)
[17:05] <cjwatson> I think that will be rather difficult for us unfortunately, although it could easily be set up such that somebody else can build it for you
[17:06] <BenB> ogra: requiring a CD-ROM is definitely a stop-gap.
[17:06] <BenB> cjwatson: that wouldn't help (security). but I guess a script that can be run on any random linux would be fine, too (preferably as user, not root).
[17:07] <ogra> BenB, i'm totally on your side here, i'd lobe to provide ready made dd'able images for usb keys :) but colin has a very valid point about size and space
[17:07] <ogra> *love
[17:07] <cjwatson> security> no different from downloading the image from us
[17:07] <BenB> I understand that most mirrors care more about disk space than traffic :)
[17:07] <cjwatson> assuming it were properly signed and such
[17:07] <BenB> yeah, if signed, sure
[17:07] <cjwatson> it's really just that we're almost on the edge of the amount of data we can cope with on releases.u.c right now
[17:08] <BenB> (signed by ubuntu)
[17:08] <cjwatson> and often in excess of that amount on cdimage.u.c
[17:08] <BenB> udnerstood
[17:08] <hwilde> when I boot up it gets to grub, then it says "mount: only root can do that"  over and over.  then it says  "mkdir cannot create directory /var/run/network: Read only filesystem"
[17:09] <hwilde> then it boots up
[17:09] <hwilde> the files appear to have the correct permissions and ownership... it's not a read-only filesystem... what am I missing
[17:18] <hwilde> why does it tell me read-only filesystem :////
[17:20] <cjwatson> BenB: so, I ran mkdosfs and syslinux on my USB stick, mounted it, copied /dists/hardy/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/vmlinuz and /dists/hardy/main/installer-i386/current/images/hd-media/initrd.gz from the archive onto it, created syslinux.cfg with the two lines mentioned in https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html, copied ubuntu-8.04-alternate-i386.iso in, booted it, and it ...
[17:20] <cjwatson> ... works fine
[17:20] <cjwatson> BenB: (actually, I lied slightly there, the "USB stick" was really a loop-mounted file that I booted in kvm)
[17:21] <cjwatson> hwilde: perhaps the kernel encountered errors and remounted the root filesystem read-only as an emergency measure? check dmesg
[17:22] <cjwatson> hwilde: (note that /etc/mtab might still show it as read-write)
[17:30] <hwilde> ah I guess that's it....  why does grub use UUID which can't be ported from one system to another instead of just /dev/hda1 ?
[17:30] <Mirv> is there someone who could "release" Gobuntu 8.04, since http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/gobuntu/releases/8.04/ is empty? I guess the last daily would be just fine. of course, there seems not to be currently active development but since it's being advertised, it's funny that the release is missing
[17:31] <Mirv> there are some questions about the release on gobuntu-devel mailing list, but seemingly no-one awake who could do something about the releae
[17:33] <Mirv> or if someone has any pointers on who should be contacted for the release to be done, since it gives a bad impression if it's completely missing
[17:39] <cjwatson> hwilde: because /dev/hda1 changes depending on the whim of the kernel (including the specific driver used for your disk and on multi-disk systems the order of device discovery)
[17:40] <cjwatson> Mirv: Gobuntu has had very little (I think practically no) contributed development effort, and to my knowledge nobody has tested its images
[17:40] <cjwatson> it was expected to be mainly a community-driven effort, but hasn't really lived up to that
[17:41] <cjwatson> (for a variety of reasons, I'm not trying to assign blame)
[17:41] <hwilde> it's assigned medium priority on the hardy blueprint
[17:41] <hwilde> everyone is busy on the high priority
[17:41] <cjwatson> Mark's mail to gobuntu-devel a few weeks ago was an attempt to figure out its future
[17:41] <BenB> cjwatson: ok. tried it, using the same method as I did before, just with hd-media/boot.img.gz on the same server
[17:41]  * cjwatson -> dinner
[17:42] <hwilde> is Ted Gould around?   https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cleanup-audio-jumble
[17:42] <BenB> cjwatson: now I at least have the option to use local packages / ISOs (why not give that manual option in both installers?)
[17:42] <cjwatson> Mirv: that said, if it actually gets tested it probably could be released
[17:43] <cjwatson> BenB: unfortunately they conflict for awkward reasons, so it's not possible
[17:43] <BenB> cjwatson: it still doesn't work, though - it tries to mount all my disks (which is a bunch), but apparently not sdk1, where the ISO is, and finds no ISO. I see no option to pass the ISO path manually.
[17:43] <BenB> cjwatson: I can see the ISO on the shell, it's in /hd-media/ubuntu-*.iso
[17:44]  * BenB is having dinner, too, BTW :)
[17:44] <BenB> (and it's cold, because I tried this :) )
[17:45] <ogra> hwilde, that spec is quite outdated
[17:45] <Mirv> cjwatson: yeah, there's really no contributions in gobuntu, and indeed Mark's e-mail sparked discussion. but the release just shouldn't be left "in the air", instead decided if announcement about "no gobuntu 8.04" should be done or something
[17:45] <ogra> hwilde, i hope we can get something up to date together for sound stuff during UDS
[17:46] <Mirv> or, "gobuntu is now achieved by pressing F6 twice in the boot menu and selecting Only Free Software"...
[17:46]  * BenB makes a note of that
[17:46]  * BenB wants only Free Software
[17:46] <hwilde> ogra, yeah that's what i'm thinking but it says  Completed:  	2008-04-24   by: 	Ted Gould
[17:47] <ogra> well, i guess that means just that pulse eneterd the desktop back then
[17:47] <ogra> *entered
[17:47] <ogra> s/back then/during hardy/
[17:48]  * BenB makes a wave for pulse
[17:49] <ogra> pulse still needs lots of love ... but at least kida works
[17:49] <hwilde> ogra, any idea if this bug might be fixed?  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/131439
[17:49] <hwilde> i've got sound, but if you queue multiple sounds they don't wait for each other to finish
[17:49] <hwilde> the event handling is borked
[17:49] <ogra> CS5536  isnt that one without alsa driver ?
[17:49]  * ogra looks at the bug
[17:50] <Mirv> maybe I'll post something on gobuntu-devel anyway
[17:50] <hwilde> ogra, alsa project is tracking the same bug   (sign in guest mode to view)  https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view.php?id=3288
[17:50]  * ogra sighs abou FFs cert exception handling
[17:51] <hwilde> accept temporarily :/
[17:51] <ogra> yeah, i did
[17:51] <ogra> and i remembered right, thats the one without alsa support, oss only until alsa fixes that
[17:52] <ogra> some of my ltsp users have these sadly
[17:52] <ogra> ah, there is apprently a patch
[17:53] <hwilde> nah
[17:53] <hwilde> that just forces it to play at 48k
[17:54] <ogra> -	if (dmix->type == SND_PCM_TYPE_DSNOOP)
[17:54] <ogra> +	if (dmix->type == SND_PCM_TYPE_DSNOOP ||
[17:54] <ogra> +	    ! dmix->bindings)
[17:54] <ogra> that one ?
[17:54] <hwilde> i've recompiled it a dozen different ways
[17:54] <hwilde> when you send a sound to the amd geode, it returns the finished event immediately
[17:54] <hwilde> it doesn't wait until the sound is finished playing
[17:54] <hwilde> so if you queue up multipel sounds, it jumbles them all up together and it sounds really stupid
[17:55] <hwilde> i've standardize the bitrates, frequencies, converted them to .mp3, ogg,  played them through different libraries, etc
[17:56] <hwilde> I think it's just a hardware bug in the amd geode companion, but that blueprint got my hopes up :)
[17:56] <hwilde> "Fix the Linux audio mess once and for all"
[17:56] <hwilde> where did you get that dmix->bindings patch
[17:56] <ogra> from the alsa bug
[17:57] <hwilde> link?
[17:58] <ogra> the one you gave me :)
[17:58] <ogra> err, no
[17:58] <hwilde> the only patch on that page is "Set a fixed rate (48000 Hz )"
[17:58] <hwilde> where did you find that dmix patch
[17:58] <ogra> the one linked from the lp bug you pointed me
[17:58] <ogra> to
[17:59] <hwilde> where???
[17:59] <ogra> i'm just talking to a thin client manufacturer in #ltsp who sells devices with the CS5536, he says it works fine ....
[17:59] <ogra> i wonder where the difference is
[18:00] <hwilde> it works fine in Windows :p
[18:00] <hwilde> seriously tho where is the link to that patch with dmix
[18:00]  * BenB waits for cjwatson 
[18:01] <hwilde> the only links on the launchpad #131439 are to alsa track #3288 which are all about forcing 48KHz.  there is nothing about dmix there
[18:01] <ogra> i clicked on one fo the links in the bug you gave me,
[18:01] <hwilde> you're telling me there is a link on that page ubottu just gave that has a patch with that dmix code?
[18:01] <ogra> hmm, even more people in #ltsp confirm to not have probs with cs5535
[18:02] <hwilde> I do not see it - i've clicked all the links
[18:02] <ogra> i tell you that i clicked on the alsa link in the bug, had to click on "guest account" and it took me to a page with that patch
[18:06] <hwilde> will you give hte url or not :/
[18:06] <hwilde> the alsa link https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view.php?id=3288  does not have anything about that dmix
[18:09] <hwilde> ogra, cmon I want to see that patch
[18:25]  * jdong wonders how the heck g-p-m calculates power usage...
[18:25] <jdong> rather, charge time.
[18:25] <jdong> there's no way the integral of this charge time graph comes out to 5 hours
[18:31] <BenB> hey, jeos is cool.
[18:31] <jdong> it is very cool
[18:32] <jdong> a fast way to get a stripped down Ubuntu up and running
[18:33] <Caesar> pitti: any chance #225333 can get fixed in Dapper?
[18:33] <ScottK> For power usage it doesn't calculate, it just gets told (by HAL, IIRC).  Dunno about charge time.
[18:48] <Riddell> good talk effie_jayx
[18:48] <Riddell> hmm, no
[18:48] <Riddell> good talk evand
[18:53] <BenB> cjwatson: I filed about the tutorial https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/installation-guide/+bug/225348
[18:55] <soren> cjwatson: The difference is that the three-arg version doesn't accept "-" as the $file.
[18:56] <soren> cjwatson: I didn't realise until afterwards that the changelog was blowing the problem out of proportion.
[18:56] <DexterF> hi
[18:57] <DexterF> will the 8.04 live CD try to auto assemble linux md raid arrays from 0xFD partitions? if: how? udev? initrd? init.d? any way to make it not do that?
[18:58] <evand> thanks Riddell
[18:59] <BenB> duh!
[18:59] <BenB> could it be that it's impossible to mix the i386 boot.img.gz with an amd64.iso?
[19:00] <BenB> I only now realize that I did that
[19:01] <jdong> ScottK: seems like it profiles charge time like discharge time based on percentage readings polled from the battery
[19:01] <jdong> ScottK: though there appears to be a disconnect over how it parses its profiled data and how I parse the same data
[19:21] <BenB> cjwatson, hwilde: yes, in fact, that was my problem why the ISO was not found. I used the i386 boot.img.gz with an amd64.iso
[19:21] <cjwatson> BenB: ah, yes, that definitely wouldn't work!
[19:22] <cjwatson> and not to mention that you're probably booting with a 32-bit kernel and that won't be able to execute 64-bit binaries
[19:22] <BenB> cjwatson: "I just downloaded the file linked there" :)
[19:22] <BenB> will add it to the "fix tutorial" bug
[19:22] <BenB> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/installation-guide/+bug/225348
[19:23] <BenB> cjwatson: I'll also file a bug about a nicer boot.img.gz or other download which contains a script and everything (apart from ISO) needed to make a USB stick.
[19:24] <cjwatson> well, you can if you like although it's already on our UDS agenda
[19:24] <cjwatson> which will already get way more attention than a bug :-)
[19:24] <BenB> UDS?
[19:24] <cjwatson> Ubuntu Developer Summit
[19:24] <BenB> (this is my first ubuntu install :) )
[19:24] <cjwatson> it's our planning meeting in Prague later this month
[19:24] <BenB> cjwatson: actually, a script should not be needed, right? if you provide a boot.img.gz with a FAT size of 1 GB, I only need to mount it and copy the ISO into it.
[19:25] <BenB> (or maybe 800MB, given that ISOs are 650 something MB)
[19:26] <BenB> all I'd need is to download 2 files, an USB stick with 1 GB, an ability to mount it (even on Windows), and a raw disk write utility (may be problem on Windows, trivial on Linux)
[19:27] <BenB> then link the tutorial on the download page, and off into the flash age! :)
[19:28] <BenB> I guess I could even create the image (for i386 and amd64) and tutorial.
[19:29] <cjwatson> yeah, I was actually wondering the same earlier today
[19:31] <cjwatson> it might well make sense given that we don't ship netinst images
[19:31] <cjwatson> I think I might change that for hardy-updates
[19:33] <cjwatson> BenB: change in my local tree now, and d-i has to be uploaded before 8.04.1 anyway, so I ought to remember ...
[19:33] <cjwatson> BenB: there's been a rawrite.exe kicking around for ages
[19:35] <ogra> cjwatson, i always wondered if that supports USB disks
[19:35] <ogra> do you know ?
[19:35] <cjwatson> I admit I don't know
[19:35] <ogra> i was pondering putting it in the classmate install instructions ...
[19:36] <cjwatson> rawrite is from the dawn of time so it might well not
[19:36] <ogra> but i guess i need to find a windows install and just test
[19:39] <slangasek> omg, rawrite
[19:41] <highvoltage> now there's a blast from the past :)
[19:44] <zul> slangasek: heh talk about old school
[19:44]  * ogra goes back to celebrate this socialistic public holiday thats based on imperialistic riots :)
[19:51] <BenB> ogra: the *real* reason is that we want to have a day free when the summer starts :)
[19:51] <ogra> BenB, haha
[19:52] <Lightkey> omg is that Ben Bucksch? ;p
[19:52] <BenB> Lightkey: yes, it is.
[19:52] <BenB> where do we know each other from?
[19:53] <Lightkey> #mozilla.de
[19:53] <BenB> ah! :-) hey
[19:53] <BenB> vaguely remembered it
[19:53] <Lightkey> hey!
[19:53]  * Lightkey finger BenB too
[19:54] <ogra> lots of bored germans here curing their hangover today eh ?
[19:54] <Lightkey> a long time since Beonex ;p
[19:55] <BenB> yup.... I'm fine, though, still working on Mozilla stuff for various companies.
[19:56] <emgent> heya
[19:57] <slangasek> ogra: hrm, really?  I don't remember anything like that plug the last time I was in Czechia /or/ France; does that just mean my memory is going?
[19:57] <slangasek> hmm, echan
[19:57] <slangasek> :)
[19:57] <ogra> slangasek, they often ise the normal SCHUKO standard :)
[19:58]  * ogra switches oever as well 
[20:01] <Dozzman> erm
[20:01] <Dozzman> hello
[20:03] <Dozzman> i need some help with my raid configuration thingy
[20:03] <Dozzman> i boot into the 8.04 live CD but my raid is being seen as 2 seperate hard drives.
[20:04] <Dozzman> rather than 1 big volume
[20:04] <cjwatson> for RAID installation, you need to use the alternate install CD
[20:04] <cjwatson> the desktop CD installer doesn't yet support RAID
[20:05] <Dozzman> oki doki
[20:05] <Dozzman> ill try that
[20:05] <Dozzman> thanks man
[20:05] <cjwatson> you're welcome
[20:09] <BenB> succeeded in installing and booting Ubuntu.
[20:10] <BenB> cjwatson, hwilde: thanks!
[20:10] <cjwatson> great, thanks for the feedback
[20:10] <BenB> cjwatson: shall I create the images and tutorial, or will you do that anyways after "UDS"?
[20:10] <cjwatson> you're welcome to go ahead, and if we do something more formal later, all the better
[20:12]  * ogra is very much after it ... i dont want to have another super custom image to maintain for cpmc8.10
[20:13] <BenB> ogra: ?
[20:14] <ogra> BenB, i'm maintining the ubuntu image for classmate PCs
[20:15] <BenB> ogra: so, you're hoping to use the same USB stick installer image?
[20:15] <ogra> which makes an edubuntu desktop run in a 2G flash disk on 256M .... and indeed requires lots of customization that i'd rather not like to have
[20:16] <ogra> easy usb images by default will make my life easier :)
[20:17] <ogra> i wont be able to use the same but base on that easily
[20:17] <ogra> even though my focus would rather be on the desktop CD with ubiquity than on d-i
[20:17] <BenB> but you have that already, no? boot.img.gz. All I'm proposing is essentially to increase the default FAT size and update the tutorial.
[20:18] <ogra> no, i use a squashfs/unionfs setup
[20:18] <ogra> d-i doesnt help much here
[20:18] <ogra> even though i couls write a udeb and use d-i to dump the image in place and set it up
[20:18] <ogra> *could
[20:20] <ogra> hmm
[20:20] <ogra> thats actually a good idea :)
[20:36] <DexterF> will the 8.04 live CD try to auto assemble linux md raid arrays from 0xFD partitions? if: how? udev? initrd? init.d? any way to make it not do that?
[20:41] <ogra> he desktop CD doesnt do raid
[20:41] <ogra> (afaik)
[20:41] <hwilde> you have to hit the other options in the beginning I think F4 or something
[20:42] <ogra> itym alternate :)
[20:49] <emgent> norsetto: o/
[20:49] <norsetto> emgent: is that the right arm or the left one?
[20:50] <emgent> left :)
[20:50] <norsetto> emgent: ah :-)
[20:50] <emgent> right is bad IMHO!
[20:50] <norsetto> emgent: well, thats what they do in the city hall ....
[20:51] <Nafallo> ogra: does do raid if you manually install the correct stuff :-)
[20:51] <emgent> gh
[20:51] <ogra> Nafallo, desktop ?
[20:51] <emgent> i go to eat. see you later
[20:52] <Nafallo> ogra: graphical livething indeed.
[20:52] <ogra> ah, well, indeed after you'Re booted into the desktop you can set up raid :)
[20:52] <Nafallo> ogra: I've used it to recover things on mdraid+lvm logical partitions :-)
[21:10] <bryce> ted1: btw I put your wishlist up here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/DesktopWishlist - feel free to add as you think of things
[21:11] <bryce> ted1: once something is added to that page, I promise it to be implemented in under 42 minutes
[21:11] <ogra> 42 the answer to everything :)
[21:11] <ted1> bryce: Wow, can I have Intel drivers that work :)
[21:13] <bryce> ted1: that was done 42 minutes ago
[21:13] <bryce> ted1: maybe you missed out though
[21:18] <ted1> bryce: :(
[21:19] <pwnguin> well, i'd like to see wacom autodetect work, and apparently that needs hotplug
[21:19] <bryce> pwnguin: yup
[21:20] <bryce> pwnguin: I plan to put some time into wacom tablets in the coming months
[21:23] <ted1> bryce: Is X seriously going to use HAL?  Read only or write too?
[21:25] <jdong> ted1: doesn't X already use HAL for input hotplugging?
[21:26] <bryce> no, we found input hotplug to be too buggy during hardy so didn't switch over to it
[21:26] <bryce> ted1: that's the plan
[21:27] <bryce> ted1: however I think it's a mistake to switch until we have decent gui config tools
[21:27] <ted1> What is there to configure?  It's all hot-hot-hot ;)
[21:27] <ted1> bryce: So are you going to have a UDS session on that?
[21:28] <bryce> ted1: configuration is needed if the user don't want the defaults
[21:28] <BenB> cjwatson: I think this is all that's needed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/225402 , plus a better tutorial (which I can write)
[21:28] <bryce> ted1: I don't know what uds sessions there'll be, but input hotplug is high on our todo list, so stands to reason
[21:29] <cjwatson> BenB: ok, dropped onto the 8.04.1 list, thanks
[21:29] <BenB> thanks
[21:30] <ted1> bryce: Okay.  Do you know if GCC is doing a hotplug config tool for X already?
[21:30] <cjwatson> bryce: would appreciate your letting me know what your highest-priority UDS sessions would be
[21:31] <bryce> cjwatson: ok will do.  I've been gathering background data in preparation for that
[21:32] <bryce> ted1: not as far as I know.  gcc seems a bit slow even in picking up the xrandr gui, so I don't expect to see efforts from them towards an input config tool.  I could be wrong though.
[21:34] <ted1> bryce: Okay.
[21:34] <ted1> bryce: Are we encouraging hardware manufacturer folks to come to UDS?
[21:35] <ted1> bryce: I think it'd be useful for them to just hear the hallway chatter of how people hate their drivers ;)
[21:35] <bryce> ted1: heh
[21:35] <bryce> ted1: I suspect intel will have some folks there, I don't think amd or nvidia were invited
[21:35] <hunger> You should invite ati/amd then...
[21:36] <hunger> My damn graphics card is still not able to render 3D without crashing the whole box:-(
[21:37] <ted1> I'd say invite nVidia too.  It'd be helpful for them to see that we're not ALL trying to steal their IP.
[21:37] <bryce> hunger: well from what I've seen, AMD/ATI cares only about -fglrx
[21:38] <bryce> hunger: I spoke directly with alex deucher at XDC08 about the compiz crash bugs already, and he pointed me to a dozen patches
[21:38] <hunger> bryce: That does not support my damn card... it is a mobile fire gl which differs from supported cards by the pci ID.
[21:38] <sladen> ted1: it's been really good since Intel and ATI started showing up
[21:38] <bryce> hunger: unfortunately the ati-compiz-crash bugs lack backtraces and other detailed information that would help in tying them to fixes
[21:38] <ted1> hunger: You could probably fix that with a hex editor ;)
[21:39] <hunger> bryce: I never ran compiz... I need to work on my box:-)
[21:39] <bryce> hunger: I packaged up alex's recommended patches and asked on a bunch of ati-compiz-crash bug reports to test, but so far only 3 people did, and none found it fixed things for them, so...
[21:39] <hunger> But glxgears and similar stuff relyable crash the mashine.
[21:40] <ted1> sladen: I agree it has gotten better.  But more communication is key.
[21:40] <hunger> bryce: Which package is that?
[21:40] <cjwatson> kees: I'm not entirely sure why you said that bug 222667 isn't a bug report? It's not like the three-word reports that you usually mark that way
[21:40] <ted1> I think in general they think that things are going great for Linux, and that's just not the case.  There are a lot of holes they they could help with.
[21:41] <bryce> hunger: -ati
[21:42] <hunger> bryce: I am using that I think. Everything 3D crashes after about 30s.
[21:46] <kees> cjwatson: checking...
[21:47] <kees> cjwatson: err, I must have typo'd something -- I did a ton of bug triage yesterday.
[21:54] <ffm> How long will it be before a _very_ simple patch is accepted?
[21:54] <ffm>  gnome-vfs hard-codes its webbrowser as firefox sometimes, but not always.
[21:54] <ffm>  I fixed the two times it did, so that it used gnome-www-browser
[21:54] <ffm> How do I get it to qualify for a sru?
[21:58] <jdong> ffm: have you filed the necessary paperwork as per the SRU documentation on the wiki?
[21:58] <ffm> jdong, not yet.
[21:58] <ffm> jdong, where is said paperwork?
[21:58] <jdong> ffm: I'd recommend doing that first, as it's a key requirement before a SRU can be considered
[21:58] <ffm> !sru
[21:58] <jdong> !sru
[22:00] <jdong> starcraft
[22:00] <jdong> oh shoot
[22:00] <jdong> umm... I'm busy doing homework. pay no attention to the focus leak above.
[22:01] <ffm> Odd...
[22:02] <ffm> I'm able to apt-get source for gnome-vfs, but cannot find it in synaptic.
[22:02] <cjwatson> apt-get source operates on source package names; synaptic operates on binary package names
[22:02] <cjwatson> $ apt-cache showsrc gnome-vfs | grep ^Binary
[22:02] <cjwatson> Binary: libgnomevfs2-common, libgnomevfs2-0, libgnomevfs2-bin, libgnomevfs2-extra, libgnomevfs2-0-dbg, libgnomevfs2-dev
[22:04] <elmo> cjwatson: you can apt-get source binary too
[22:04] <elmo> it DTRT
[22:04] <cjwatson> true
[22:04] <cjwatson> still, ffm's comment is due to the other way round
[22:05] <cjwatson> as in, gnome-vfs won't be findable in synaptic because there's no binary of that name
[22:05] <ffm> Who do I subscribe to subscribe the main uploaders?
[22:05] <cjwatson> ffm: beware that much of GNOME has moved over to a new VFS framework called gvfs, so you might want to check that too
[22:05] <cjwatson> ffm: ubuntu-main-sponsors
[22:06] <cjwatson> (NEVER subscribe ubuntu-core-dev)
[22:06] <ffm> cjwatson, Ah.
[22:06] <ffm> cjwatson, why not?
[22:06] <cjwatson> because we'll shout at you
[22:06] <cjwatson> :-)
[22:07] <cjwatson> only ubuntu-main-sponsors has signed up to general patch review; there are people in ubuntu-core-dev that haven't volunteered for that
[22:07] <cjwatson> I only mention it because people do it every so often, or assign ubuntu-core-dev to a bug or something crazy like that
[22:08] <ffm> Ok, can someone upload bug #223922 to hardy-proposed?
[22:09] <hwilde> just go to ubuntu-bugs and ask them to review it
[22:09] <cjwatson> you might want to do it during European working hours when our main GNOME maintainer is around
[22:11] <ffm> Ok, can someone accept the bug into intrepid?
[22:11] <hwilde> so cjwatson ... shouldn't I get an error message or something if it's going into read only filesystem?  dmesg looks all normal
[22:11] <cjwatson> ffm: 22:09 <cjwatson> you might want to do it during European working hours when our main GNOME maintainer is around
[22:11] <cjwatson> hwilde: I'd have thought so, yes. It was just a guess
[22:12] <norsetto> hmmm, is that a green light to uploads for intrepid?
[22:12] <cjwatson> yes
[22:12] <ffm> cjwatson, ok... isn't the process to get into a devel release less restrictive?
[22:12] <jdong> sweet!
[22:12] <jdong> :D
[22:12] <LaserJock> \o/
[22:12] <cjwatson> ffm: yes
[22:12] <jdong> CRACK! CRACK! CRACK!
[22:12] <cjwatson> ffm: typically patches ought to be in the development release before being backported to stable releases
[22:12] <ajmitch> jdong: need sedatives already?
[22:12] <ffm> cjwatson, so, it wouldn't hurt to upload it? It can be reverted if it breaks anything...
[22:12] <hwilde> cjwatson, I made this install on a harddrive, then cp -apR everything onto a flashcard, and it preserved all the permissions and everything.  i've done this before but is there something special?
[22:12] <jdong> ajmitch: sorry just had a large cup of coffee :)
[22:13] <cjwatson> ffm: talk to the GNOME maintainer, who should be around during European working hours (third time I've said this)
[22:13] <ffm> cjwatson, Ok.
[22:14] <ffm> cjwatson, Would that be Sebastien Bacher?
[22:14] <cjwatson> hwilde: err, your filesystem will have a new UUID then, so you'll need to hunt down the old UUID and replace it
[22:14] <cjwatson> ffm: yes
[22:14] <cjwatson> hwilde: /etc/fstab at least, possibly also somewhere in the initramfs
[22:14] <hunger> hardy-backports archive has a broken signature according to aptitude.
[22:15] <cjwatson> hwilde: oh, not the initramfs, but the root= bit in /boot/grub/menu.lst
[22:15] <ffm> cjwatson, what's his irc? sbacher?
[22:15] <norsetto> ffm: seb128
[22:15] <hwilde> cjwatson, yeah I did that already - it boots grub fine, it mounts everything in fstab fine, but it's read only
[22:15] <cjwatson> hwilde: you can use sudo vol_id -u <device> to discover the new UUID
[22:15] <cjwatson> hwilde: ok, I'm afraid I don't know then
[22:15] <hwilde> no I hardcode it to /dev/hda1 so I can port the image to other systems
[22:15] <cjwatson> ffm: you can look this sort of thing up in Launchpad, usually
[22:16] <cjwatson> hwilde: are you sure your flash card is /dev/hda1? that would be unusual
[22:16] <ffm> cjwatson,  I did, his nick isn't on there.
[22:16] <cjwatson> hwilde: flash devices are often /dev/sd*
[22:16] <hwilde> it runs through an ide controller, so yes it's hda1
[22:16] <hwilde> and /home is hda2
[22:16] <hwilde> and these are both mounted fine
[22:16] <hwilde> but read only mode
[22:16] <hwilde> even tho all the ownership and permissions look fine to me
[22:18]  * cjwatson wonders how far the autosync will get
[22:18] <cjwatson> oh well, I'll leave it running overnight :)
[22:20] <bd_> ooo intrepid open
[22:20] <bd_> how long does the universe sync usually take to kick in?
[22:25] <LaserJock> a looong time
[22:25] <Keybuk> couple of days?
[22:33] <cjwatson> bd_: I've started it, but it usually takes a while to sort its life out
[22:33] <cjwatson> though it's up to f, which is pretty good going
[22:34] <LaserJock> cjwatson: does that include building? or just syncing the source?
[22:34] <cjwatson> just syncing
[22:34] <cjwatson> haven't flushed to the archive yet
[22:34]  * ajmitch imagines that building will take a good deal longer
[22:35] <cjwatson> correct
[22:35] <bd_> and sorting out NEW I suppose?
[22:35] <cjwatson> WAY longer
[22:35] <cjwatson> that sucks up as much archive admin time as we're willing to give it
[22:35] <bd_> heh
[22:35] <cjwatson> though some Soyuz changes this cycle should make it quicker
[22:36] <bd_> fortunately the package I'm interested in is already in hardy :)
[22:36] <tonyyarusso> Slighly odd question:  Are certain UDSs more interesting than others?  For instance, before an LTS versus the first one after an LTS?
[22:36] <LaserJock> is MoM now showing Intrepid by chance?
[22:36] <cjwatson> tonyyarusso: I think the project is so big and complicated now that that sort of thing doesn't make a lot of difference
[22:36] <Keybuk> LaserJock: should be
[22:36] <tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Ah, okay.
[22:36] <LaserJock> Keybuk: awesome
[22:37] <cjwatson> tonyyarusso: I mean, the answer is probably yes, but I don't have a way to predict it in advance :-)
[22:38]  * tonyyarusso would love to go to one, but needs to convince someone the send him - maybe for Intrepid+2 I guess.  (Intrepid+1 would make me miss school, and I highly doubt Canonical would ask me to Intrepid's)
[22:38] <cjwatson> sponsored invitations have already gone out for Intrepid's, FWIW
[22:39] <tonyyarusso> righto
[22:40] <ffm> when's intrepid+1? more importanly, where?
[22:40] <tonyyarusso> Thing is, I don't actually write any code, but would like to be able to talk about ideas and work on tracking down the people that could make them happen.  Can also give input as a user/sysadmin, and maintain one (relatively minor) package (packaging only, not code)
[22:40] <Keybuk> ffm: first week of December, SF/Bay Area
[22:40] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: December?  I thought they were usually mid-Novemberish
[22:41] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: we've tried to move them a little further away from the release
[22:41] <sladen> tonyyarusso: ideally the spec process (and the phones, wiki and launchpad) mean that it *is* possible to participate and not be there in person
[22:41] <Keybuk> and then we had a fight, because of a little American holiday
[22:41] <Keybuk> and then we realised there was a german holiday
[22:41] <Keybuk> so it ended up a bit later ;)
[22:41] <ffm> Keybuk, hm.. still a bit far for me... but more doable than prauge.
[22:42] <ffm> Keybuk, howabout +2?
[22:42] <sladen> tonyyarusso: (I've managed, on the odd occasion when I haven't actually turned up in person
[22:42] <Keybuk> ffm: Europe somewhere
[22:42] <tonyyarusso> sladen: Theoretically, yes, but I doubt you can get as much done that way.  (Plus, if I'm here, I'm working, but if I'm shipped overseas, clearly I have to be doing those things instead of other stuff)
[22:42] <Keybuk> ffm: the May UDS is in Europe, the November/December one in the Americas
[22:42] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: hehe, gotcha.
[22:43]  * tonyyarusso votes somewhere in the Nordic countries for +2
[22:43] <ffm> Keybuk, Anything happening on the eastern coast of NA?
[22:43] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: we had a developer sprint in Norway last year
[22:43] <Keybuk> ffm: you missed Boston, which was the last UDS :-)
[22:44] <ffm> Keybuk, yeah, i was too young and not as involved.
[22:44] <Keybuk> pattern would indicate we'd likely be East Coast US or CA again in Nov/Dec 09 - but that's only an intelligent prediction
[22:44] <ted1> Why not somewhere in the middle of the US.  Denver?
[22:44] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: yeah, but I'd be useless at a dev sprint, whereas for UDS I could actually accomplish something.
[22:44] <hwilde> vegas baby
[22:44] <LaserJock> Iowa!
[22:44] <tonyyarusso> Minneapolis!
[22:44] <tonyyarusso> (Drupal has had loads of events here lately)
[22:45] <Keybuk> LaserJock: you'd have to find _something_ in Iowa ;)
[22:45] <Keybuk> ted1: isn't that the one with the airport that doubles as a future concentration camp for the new world order?
[22:45] <tonyyarusso> There's lots of corn.  And soybeans.  And pigs.  Oh yeah, and crazy Iowans.
[22:45] <ted1> Keybuk: ?  Oh, do you mean the tent design?  I actually like the design.
[22:45] <LaserJock> hmm, how about Hawaii? that sounds nice
[22:46] <mario_limonciell> LaserJock, +1.
[22:46] <mario_limonciell> i'll go back to IA for a UDS :)
[22:46] <Keybuk> ted1: http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html
[22:46] <LaserJock> Kansas City wouldn't be bad I don't think
[22:46] <mario_limonciell> but if you are gonna do midwest, Chicago or Minneapolis make sense
[22:46] <mario_limonciell> or KC yeah
[22:46] <ScottK> I like the Las Vegas idea.
[22:47] <tonyyarusso> (Who decides these things anyway?)
[22:47] <ScottK> KC would be cool too.  I grew up there.
[22:47] <tonyyarusso> Chicago wouldn't be bad - lots of Ubuntu there.  Mpls is closer to me though.  :)
[22:47] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: nobody really decides
[22:47] <slangasek> mario_limonciell: nah, Ames is totally better than Chicago or Minneapolis ;)
[22:47] <Keybuk> it depends what the options are really
[22:48] <Keybuk> if someone's scoped out a hotel, with great conference facilities, excellent bandwidth, has local area knowledge, is willing to help find needed things nearby, etc. then it tends to tip the books
[22:48] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: well, surely at some point some person makes a decision.  Or do you just feed a wikipedia cities list into a random number generator?
[22:48] <cjwatson> we usually give some general parameters to the Canonical admin (not sysadmin!) team and ask them to book us something
[22:48] <mario_limonciell> slangasek, yeah but there's more night time like stuff for out of towners in the bigger cities
[22:48] <Keybuk> we're back at SF because it's so easy to organise stuff there
[22:48] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: So, if I want it in my city, I should approach a venue and see if they're interested first?
[22:48] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: I imagine Mark has something of a say, as well as the COO
[22:48] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: or at least know that venues exist
[22:48] <tonyyarusso> (The University is big on this stuff - hosted the Drupal thing, runs Ubuntu in some departments)
[22:48] <tonyyarusso> (runs a mirror too)
[22:49] <ted1> Keybuk: Hmm, I didn't really realize there were conspiracy theories around the airport.  How fun.
[22:49] <Keybuk> LaserJock: Jane certainly cares about the cost ;)
[22:49] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: Is there somewhere I could get a list of all of the things we'd need, so I know what to look for?  Or a person to contact?
[22:49] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: believe it or not, we've never managed to host in a uni
[22:49] <Keybuk> they don't tend to have the facilities we need
[22:49] <Keybuk> Boston was at one point planned to be in MIT before it ended up at a hotel on campus instead
[22:50] <LaserJock> Google HQ was rather nice
[22:50] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: yeah, that's why I'd need to know the facilities requirements.
[22:50] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: big cheap hotel, conference rooms, lots of bandwidth, nearby restaurants, good breakfast and lunch service
[22:50] <LaserJock> a gigantic internet pipe for elmo to plugin into ;-)
[22:50] <Keybuk> willing to accept the fact that we are just going to overrun their entire conference area ;)
[22:51] <ted1> There's a Hyatt at the train station (not really, end of the public transit) in St. Louis that would probably satisfy those requirements.  I've done conferences there that went well.
[22:51] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: UDS isn't a talk/lecture style event
[22:51] <cjwatson> preferably not one that chucks us out of the conference area in the evenings
[22:51] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: lol.  Well, I thik we have a shot here at least.
[22:51] <Keybuk> so lecture theatres aren't that interesting
[22:52] <Keybuk> medium size (now known ubiquitously as "hunsaker sized") conference rooms
[22:52] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: how many people attend?
[22:52]  * ajmitch thinks that having UDS somewhere in .au or .nz would be nice for a change :)
[22:52] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: 100-200
[22:52] <Keybuk> ajmitch: you were at UDS Sydney, no? :)
[22:52] <ajmitch> Keybuk: sure
[22:52] <LaserJock> ajmitch: except for the sheep  and sucky bandwidth caps
[22:53] <ajmitch> I remember the badndwidth disaster
[22:53] <ion_> ajmitch: You must mean Tampere, Finland.
[22:53] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: it's not a guarantee of course, but having some locals willing to scope things out for the admin team really does grease the wheels
[22:53] <Keybuk> the less research and investigation work Claire has to do, the more Claire will favour the area ;)
[22:53] <Keybuk> Prague has been great because the locals are helping us find things nearby
[22:54] <Keybuk> e.g. equipment hire
[22:54] <norsetto> was it ever done in Rome?
[22:54] <cjwatson> not as yet
[22:54] <Daviey> join ubuntu see the world
[22:54] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: Claire?
[22:54] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: one of the Canonical admin team
[22:55] <Daviey> Claire Rocks
[22:55] <Keybuk> one of her jobs is organising UDS
[22:55] <LaserJock> Daviey: that's a cool quote
[22:55]  * norsetto notes down to talk with Claire at next UDS :-)
[22:55] <Keybuk> petit girl with an elmo fetish ;)
[22:55] <LaserJock> lol
[22:55] <sladen> London, Oxford, Sydney, Montreal, Middle of now-where pretending to be Paris Airport, San Franciso, Sevilla, Boston MA, ...
[22:55] <ion_> Rocks is an awesome surname.
[22:55] <cjwatson> London .uk, Oxford .uk, Mataro .es, Sydney .au, Montreal .ca, Paris .fr, San Francisco .us, Sevilla .es, Boston .us
[22:55] <cjwatson> sladen: you missed one :)
[22:55] <sladen> Brazil too I guess
[22:56] <Keybuk> sladen: you missed the bags of death
[22:56] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: The last Drupal event I went to was in the Campus Club - a catered dining room area that likely holds about 200.  Would that be the sort of thing you'd be going for for mingling, or just an open space?
[22:56] <sladen> Keybuk: meh, how could I forget :)
[22:56] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperSummit
[22:56] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: would be somewhat large for mingling I would have thought ;)
[22:56] <cjwatson> missing the old ones
[22:57] <Keybuk> London and Oxford weren't really UDS
[22:57] <Keybuk> though Oxford does fit the model we ended up with
[22:57] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: well, you can always huddle in one corner - 200 would be the "fire department defined" capacity, but it's plenty cozy (we probably had 30)
[22:57] <cjwatson> Oxford was
[22:57] <cjwatson> (due to model rather than intent, yes)
[22:57] <Keybuk> I'd vaguely attempt to insert Brazil into that as well
[22:57] <ajmitch> tonyyarusso: how many smallish rooms though?
[22:57] <Keybuk> since that was a key early planning meeting
[22:57] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: the important part is to have lots of little rooms where people can BOF
[22:58] <LaserJock> it's annoying to have 10 BOFs going on in the same room, can't hear a thing
[22:58] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: http://towers.corinthia.cz/data/events_corinthia/events_corinthia_1b.jpg
[22:58] <tonyyarusso> ajmitch: Hundreds - just depends how far away they are.  This is a campus that houses 65,000 students.  Plus, there are a dozen or so related state schools within the metro area.
[22:58] <Keybuk> that is allegedly a 3D of the area we have for prague
[22:58] <Keybuk> except that it's been split into rooms for us
[22:58] <Daviey> Dosn't look that big!
[22:59] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: ah, I see.
[22:59] <sladen> 2003-04 London,  when was debconf in Brazil, Oxford was August?
[22:59] <Keybuk> http://people.netsplit.com/~scott/events_corinthia_13.png
[22:59] <tonyyarusso> How many conference rooms + how many mingling rooms?
[22:59] <Keybuk> err
[22:59] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/events_corinthia_13.png
[22:59] <cjwatson> I've edited DeveloperSummit to add the history
[23:00] <tonyyarusso> What's required in terms of A/V, etc. ?
[23:00] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: hotels tend to charge a fortune for that kind of thing
[23:00] <cjwatson> (though "first Canonical meeting" is stretching it given that that was pre-name)
[23:01] <Keybuk> were we still weirdos then
[23:01] <Keybuk> or had we moved to warthogs
[23:01] <cjwatson> no
[23:01] <cjwatson> warthogs
[23:01] <cjwatson> also $COMPANY
[23:01] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: What would you want if it was free?
[23:01] <sladen> there's a picture somewhere with Canonical written (along with a dozen names) on a whiteboard
[23:01] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: projectors, PA for the talk area, etc.
[23:01] <Keybuk> sladen: I have that picture somewhere
[23:02] <sladen> one day I'll write a book ;)
[23:02] <soren> What's the canonical (har) way to avoid starting a daemon on the buildd's if its package is installed as a build dependency?
[23:02] <Nafallo> /go #canonical-sysadmin
[23:03] <Daviey>  /go #fail
[23:03] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: Any idea what the budget is for the facilities?
[23:03] <tonyyarusso> or, "make us an offer"?
[23:03] <Nafallo> Daviey: indeed.
[23:03] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/dscn0999.jpg
[23:04] <bd_> soren: policy-rc.d
[23:04] <bd_> see /usr/share/doc/sysv-rc/README.policy-rc.d
[23:04] <norsetto> famigghia!? Oh dear ...
[23:04] <bd_> .gz
[23:05] <tonyyarusso> norsetto: You noticed that one over "Cockfeelers"?
[23:05] <norsetto> tonyyarusso: petricore?
[23:05] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: Cock FOSTERS
[23:06] <tonyyarusso> norsetto: I don't know what that means.
[23:06] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: Um, oh.  Is that better?
[23:06] <Keybuk> for some reason, the fact that there is a suburb of London called "Cockfosters" highly amuses Australians
[23:06] <Keybuk> and that the train they get on from the airport has "Cockfosters" written on the front
[23:06] <Keybuk> and that the announcer says "This train is for Cockfosters"
[23:06] <ajmitch> I wonder why
[23:07] <soren> bd_: Hmm...
[23:07] <tonyyarusso> Keybuk: Now, this one goes off the picture, but is that "YOURMOM" I see on the right?
[23:07] <Keybuk> I will carry the image, to my death bed, of jdub, arms spread wide, at the top of his voice exclaiming "YES! I AM A COCKFOSTER!"
[23:07] <bd_> soren: pbuilder does this, if you're looking for an example :)
[23:07] <soren> bd_: The postinst is already using invoke-rc.d
[23:07] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: don't think so, can't remember
[23:07] <bd_> and debootstrap temporarily uses it
[23:07] <cjwatson> Keybuk: that's a lot of top of voice
[23:08] <soren> bd_: Er.. I don't see how that relates to my problem?
[23:08] <cjwatson>  * command was 'dpkg-source -sn -x /home/lp_archive/syncs/intercal_0.28-1.dsc'
[23:08] <cjwatson>  [dpkg-source output:] dpkg-source: error: Expected ^@@ in line 3 of diff `/home/lp_archive/syncs/intercal_0.28-1.diff.gz'
[23:08] <cjwatson> E: 'dpkg-source -x' failed for /home/lp_archive/syncs/intercal_0.28-1.dsc [return code: 2304].
[23:08] <soren> bd_: Oh, I lie. It doesn't depend on sysv-rc, so there's no invoke-rc.d
[23:08] <cjwatson> of all the packages to fail
[23:09] <soren> bd_: I still don't see what pbuilder or debootstrap has to do with anything, though.
[23:09] <bd_> soren: Just saying that they make use of the same mechanism to disable init scripts
[23:09] <bd_> so if you were looking to see how it's set up, there you are
[23:10] <soren> bd_: ...but I'm not doing anything akin to pbuilder or debootstrap. I'm the package maintainer. Never mind, I've worked it out.
[23:10] <bd_> soren: sorry, from the original question I thought you were setting up a chroot or something...
[23:11] <soren> No, no, not at all :)
[23:12] <soren> I just had a package that got pulled in as a b-d and it caused the build to fail because it was trying to start a daemon.
[23:12] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/dscn0998.jpg
[23:12] <Keybuk> ^ I have to throw that one up simply because it's so amusing
[23:12] <Keybuk> "Who are these people? Why are they so young? And why do they all have so much hair?!"
[23:12] <cjwatson> "why are they all haggard and ancient-looking now?"
[23:12] <tonyyarusso> How much older is Mark than the next one?
[23:13] <norsetto> keybuk: why are they so happy ... seems almost like a funeral ....
[23:13] <cjwatson> "the next one"?
[23:13] <tonyyarusso> That is, assuming he's the oldest.
[23:13] <Keybuk> norsetto: we knew what was coming
[23:13] <cjwatson> oh, righgt
[23:13] <cjwatson> no, Mark isn't the oldest there
[23:13] <Keybuk> tonyyarusso: oh, Lamont would definitely be the oldest in that
[23:14] <LaserJock> Keybuk: dang, jdub's got those devil eyes
[23:14] <tonyyarusso> ah
[23:14] <norsetto> I bet the 5th from the left is cjwatson
[23:14] <cjwatson> norsetto: yes
[23:14] <Keybuk> norsetto: assuming you ignore mdz (sitting down) then yes
[23:14] <norsetto> keybuck: yes, only those standing: ah ah, gotcha
[23:15] <LaserJock> is that fabio on the far right?
[23:15] <Keybuk> it is
[23:16] <norsetto> keybuck: and you would be?
[23:16] <Keybuk> norsetto: next to Fabio
[23:16] <norsetto> Keybuk: closed eyes?
[23:16] <Keybuk> yeah
[23:16] <Keybuk> I hate camera flashes
[23:17] <norsetto> Keybuk: you are much younger than I expected (or at least, you were :-))
[23:17] <Keybuk> everyone says that
[23:17] <Keybuk> I must have been 23 in that picture
[23:17] <LaserJock> just a little kid
[23:17] <Keybuk> and annoyingly slim too *sigh*
[23:18] <ajmitch> that is an interesting photo
[23:25] <Keybuk> :-)
[23:25] <Keybuk> half of us are still here
[23:29] <cjwatson> more than half, 9/14
[23:29] <cjwatson> though only 8/14 continuous ;-)
[23:30] <Nafallo> oooh
[23:30] <infinity> I just love elmo in that picture.
[23:30] <Nafallo> :-)
[23:31] <infinity> I miss the razor-free, basement hippy look.
[23:31] <Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
[23:31] <Robot101> hmm, this photo makes me think we've not done a very good job of recording collabora's history
[23:33] <infinity> Robot101: No basement hippy photos of you guys in the early years?
[23:33] <Keybuk> Robot101: there must at least be photos from that debconf?
[23:33] <Keybuk> I liked that debconf
[23:33] <Keybuk> even though I didn't actually have a bed for the entire week
[23:34] <Robot101> Keybuk: heh, yes
[23:34] <Robot101> incorporated 20/07/05
[23:35] <Robot101> gotta get planning that 3rd birthday party
[23:35] <Robot101> its juuuust after GUADEC
[23:35] <Keybuk> that sounds about right
[23:36] <Keybuk> I vaguely remember it being my birthday on the flight back
[23:37] <lamont> Keybuk: good to see my picture is getting around...
[23:39] <lamont> and yeah, I'm definitely the oldest in that picture
[23:43] <persia> soren: For aolserver4, the package was split into a -core (with the interesting bits from a build-dep perspective) and a -server (with the actual server).  Were I responsible for a new split, I'd probably use libfoo, libfoo-dev, and foo, with foo as the server.
[23:44] <norsetto> lamont: ok, next UDS you have a picure with me and scottk, will make you look a baby
[23:44] <lamont> heh
[23:44]  * lamont has met ScottK 
[23:45] <zul> I would hope so
[23:46] <lamont> heh
[23:46]  * lamont won't be in Prague though
[23:47] <zul> lamont: that sucks
[23:48]  * LaserJock imagines people asking norsetto "heah, are you Mark's dad?" ;p
[23:48] <norsetto> LaserJock: grandad even :-)