[19:58] <Solarion> ello.  :)
[19:59] <phoenix24_> Hi bryce!
[19:59] <bryce> heya!
 QUESTION: Can you please explain, How do I get an backtrace for X ?
[19:59] <phoenix24_> exactly, thanks
[19:59] <rzr> :)
[19:59] <bryce> this walks you through doing that - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Backtracing
[20:00] <CLEARviewF> hi!
[20:00] <bryce> if it's unclear or confusing in any parts, let me know so I can improve the docs (it probably needs some)
 QUESTION: are there hopes that some day nvidia or ati etc will provide some opensources drivers too ?
[20:00] <rzr> bryce: QUESTION: are you about to build radeon drivers snapshot too ?
[20:00] <phoenix24_> I'll let you know, I'm up for another talk now
[20:01] <rzr> bryce: no need to answer this question is in all FAQ
[20:01] <bryce> AMD/ATI recently hired alex deucher, the -ati driver maintainer, so in a large sense they're directly supporting that driver now
[20:01] <bryce> nvidia also employs the -nv maintainer iirc, so they are also providing support
[20:01] <rzr> ati used to commit on xfree i recall 
[20:02] <bryce> in both cases though, the drivers "belong" to Xorg, not to the companies
[20:02] <phoenix24_> Is this the reason, ATI radeon driver is no longer proprietary ?
[20:02] <bryce> rzr, yes a -ati snapshot page is on the todo list.  Probably a few weeks away (post UDS likely), as I'm in the midst of rebuilding my dev box and doing sru's / backports /etc.
[20:03] <rzr> ok nice, i'll test them
[20:03] <rzr> since there is a regression on tvout
[20:03] <CLEARviewF> ﻿QUESTION: i have some bugs in reproducing sounds with my CREATIVE AUDIGY SE SOund Card in Hardy, i think it is about some bug between the new KErnel and the new system PULSE AUDIO, isn't it right?. i have a question about X crashing with my sound system in Hardy averytime a minimize/maximize a window, or when there is no sound and then suddenly a sound come up it come with a noise.
[20:03] <bryce> The ATI -fglrx driver is still proprietary and there are 0% chance of that changing
[20:04] <bryce> CLEARviewF: pulse audio errors are outside my domain, but if it crashes X that is definitely of interest - check out the backtracing link above for getting a full backtrace, and put in a bug report about it
 question: has tv-out improved at all?
[20:06] <bryce> I posted some directions for manually enabling S-Video here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config
[20:07] <bryce> in general, I think S-Video needs more attention though.  It's not high on my own todo list though (input issues are more pressing), but could give directions for anyone wishing to hack on some code
 QUESTION: What are the actually tasks, permissions and functions of ~ubuntu-x-swat?
[20:08] <rzr> if it maters that's the bug i'm tracking : https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12007
[20:09] <bryce> the ubuntu-x-swat team is primarily for bug triaging.  So it has some additional permissions and functions for setting bug properties beyond what regular reporters can do
[20:09] <CLEARviewF> bryce: i don't know if it is crashing against X or against Compiz. But almost avery thing a do with the windows it make noisly sounds. When i don't touch the windows, everything goes well, accept when sound go from quiet to loud.
[20:09] <bryce> we don't assign tasks, but generally it is a team you join if you wish to work on bug triaging for X
[20:11] <pwnguin> the -nv driver guy does some wierd stuff though
[20:11] <bryce> rzr, cool thanks, I'll update the Config page accordingly.  You might also look on the bleeding edge X page to see if Tormod has posted a newer -ati git snapshot
[20:12] <rzr> will do, but time miss :)
[20:13] <johanbr> bryce: What are your thoughts on the nouveau driver? For instance, will that be the preferred driver for any nvidia cards in Intrepid?
[20:13] <bryce> CLEARviewF: weird, that almost sounds like a hardware problem like an IRQ collision or interference...  I think you need a kernel developer to help with this
[20:13] <pwnguin> johanbr: i kinda doubt that. nouveau needs some special libraries that aren't stable yet
[20:14] <bryce> CLEARviewF: I would suggest you post a detailed bug report about it, and mention it to ogasawara (the kernel team bug triager), and she'll take it to the kernel team or let you know what other info to collect
[20:14] <johanbr> I see. Thanks.
[20:14] <pwnguin> johanbr: RAOF has a ppa with the packages though, if you'd like to try it
[20:14] <bryce> heya pwnguin :-)
[20:14] <pwnguin> morning
[20:15] <johanbr> pwnguin: Well, I have a 5x card which I understand is not well supported yet.
[20:15] <pwnguin> i think sabdfl changes his ask mark schedule to dodge tough questions ;)
[20:15] <rzr> bryce: is  https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers bleededge page  ?
 QUESTION: when does Ubuntu-X implement kernel-based drivers?
[20:15] <bryce> rzr yup
[20:15] <rzr> ok
[20:16] <bryce> I'm hoping to see kernel modesetting as an option for -intel during intrepid, like RedHat released (but hopefully more functional)
[20:16] <bryce> I doubt it will be mature enough to use by default for Intrepid though.  Maybe Intrepid+1.  Depends a lot on how much work goes on upstream.
[20:16] <bryce> also it sounds like it will be some time before all the major drivers support it - and more before all drivers do
[20:17] <bryce> ok, I think I caught up to all the questions there
[20:18] <johanbr> Can kernel-based drivers coexist with the present-day model?
[20:18] <kees> S-Video works on ATI, it just needs a specific xrandr config option
[20:20] <rzr> kees: not on all , check my logs : http://rzr.online.fr/q/xrandr
[20:20] <bryce> johanbr: yes, the way they are implementing it allows the driver to implement both kernel and xserver modesetting, and let the xserver select which to use
[20:21] <bryce> I personally haven't looked into the details of the design, so can't say much more on it than that though
[20:22] <rzr> kees: unless you're ok to watch a movie like this : http://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=11136#bug.jpg
[20:27] <kees> rzr: hah, owwwchy
[20:29] <rzr> me eyes are bleeding but I'll get used too
[20:51] <CLEARviewF> bryce: maybe you have some time to help me about getting a Backtrace?
[20:51] <CLEARviewF> i mean, i have that problem with my sound
[20:55] <CLEARviewF> i has using Gutsy for a while (5 months) with a Santa Cruz Turtle Beach sound card, with no problems, then i try with the integrated sound card and, no problems but still bad sound quality....then i bought an AUDIGY sound card and installed Hardy there in the same machine with the new sound card
[20:55] <CLEARviewF> and the sound problem came up
[20:56] <pwnguin> what's this have to do with X?
[20:56] <CLEARviewF> pwnguin: the problem is that sound fails when X get more activity
[20:57] <CLEARviewF> example: when i minimize or maximize a window, there is a noise
[20:57] <bryce> CLEARviewF: that is likely not an X bug, but a hardware issue at the kernel level, that just seems to correlate to X behavior
[20:58] <bryce> CLEARviewF: you could also check and see if you have sound effects turned on for window actions (off by default afaik but can be switched on)
[20:58] <CLEARviewF> bryce told me that maybe is an IRQ problem, but it is still something to do with X or the Kernel that doesn't manage well the IRQ settings
[20:59] <CLEARviewF> bryce: thank you
[20:59] <CLEARviewF> how do i make a backtrace of this problem? i don't know how
[21:00] <CLEARviewF> bryce: ﻿how do i make a backtrace of this problem? i don't know how
[21:00] <pwnguin> backtraces are for crashing programs
[21:01] <pwnguin> step one is to identify the program that crashed?
[21:01] <pwnguin> or perhaps, identify IF a program crashed
[21:01] <CLEARviewF> pwnguin: how?
[21:02] <CLEARviewF> pwnguin: if there is just noise
[21:02] <bryce> CLEARviewF: like pwnguin said, a backtrace wouldn't be appropriate unless you can make it crash
[21:03] <CLEARviewF> bryce: if  a backtrace doesn't help me, what can i do?
[21:03] <CLEARviewF> ....instead...
[21:03] <bryce> ok, let me look for you
[21:03] <bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingSoundProblems
[21:04] <bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingIRQProblems
[21:04] <CLEARviewF> bryce: thank you
[21:04] <bryce> CLEARviewF: also a lot more at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[21:04] <bryce> CLEARviewF: this one too, for kernel issues - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
[21:05] <CLEARviewF> bryce: i feel sad to make oyou take your time to help me on this way, i am sorry, but thank you a lot
[21:05] <bryce> hey no prob, if it means one less bug eventually, then that's great :-)
[21:05] <CLEARviewF> bryce: my english is not so well, i am from peru...
[21:06] <bryce> CLEARviewF: also helping educate people in how to improve Ubuntu will be good for us all, since you can use the info for more bugs after this one :-)
[21:06] <CLEARviewF> bryce: nice to know you... i love linux and ubuntu is beautiful
[21:07] <CLEARviewF> thank you for all, to everyone
[21:43] <Solarion> is there any hope at all of having 3D on an ati+nvidia system?
[21:43] <Solarion> Or is there no peace to be had?
[21:44] <bryce> do you mean compiz?
[21:44] <bryce> you can force compiz on (there's a flag documented somewhere)
[21:45] <Solarion> I mean 3D
[21:45] <bryce> er, well not sure what you mean by that.  Yes, there's always hope.
[21:45] <Solarion> As yet, I can have either the ATI card have 3D and have x crash if I try it on the nvidia screen, or have 2D-only ATI and nvidia do 3D
[21:45] <Solarion> stupid proprietary crappy drivers
[21:46] <bryce> heh yep
[21:46] <bryce> drivers make our lives fun
[21:46] <bryce> are you trying to do multi-card?
[21:46] <Solarion> I am doing multi-card
[21:46] <bryce> getting X going on more than one card is particularly buggy at the moment
[21:46] <Solarion> the caveat is that I don't have multi-3D capability
[21:47] <bryce> I think in Intrepid or Intrepid+1 we'll get the infrastructure in place to be able to support multi-card better
[21:47] <Solarion> cool
[21:47] <bryce> I expect it will require a lot of bug work to make it reliable
[21:47] <Solarion> I will see how I can help out
[21:47] <Solarion> I have to get graduated
[21:48] <bryce> :-)
[21:48] <bryce> pre-congrats
[21:48] <Solarion> there's a mountain of mole-hills between there and here
[21:49] <bryce> yup
[21:50] <bryce> I used to run triple-head on two cards with Xinerama back pre-Gutsy, and long for getting back to that
[21:50] <bryce> http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/triple-head/
[21:50] <Solarion> it actually works pretty well, save for 3D and random bugs in the higher-level software
[21:51] <Solarion> it's certainly not easy to achieve, tho
[21:51] <bryce> Solarion: if you can make sure we have good solid bugs on each issue in LP, and make sure they're reported upstream, that'd help a lot (and I'd be willing to assist in any point as well)
[21:51] <Solarion> I basically have an xorg.conf that I've been nursing through each release
[21:51] <Solarion> sure
[21:51] <Solarion> I actually have a 3-head display atm
[21:52] <bryce> Solarion: how many screens do you use for that?
[21:52] <Solarion> bryce: three
[21:52] <bryce> also, are you able to move the mouse back and forth between them all?  (that's what got me)
[21:52] <Solarion> I actually prefer 3 separate screens
[21:52] <Solarion> yes
[21:52] <bryce> is it with Xinerama or Xrandr?
[21:52] <bryce> I'd be curious to see the xorg.conf, I wouldn't mind testing it on my own gear
[21:53] <Solarion> Neither
[21:53] <Solarion> http://digitasaru.net/xorg.conf
[21:54] <Solarion> I still have an arklogic card and a rendition card that I used to have in there
[21:54] <Solarion> took those out of the xorg.conf file, tho
[21:55] <Solarion> getting this setup to work is certainly a minefield of kablooey sorts of bugs
[21:55] <bryce> wow, yeah I bet
[21:55] <Solarion> bryce: what cards are you using in that 3-head config?
[21:55] <bryce> two ati cards
[21:55] <Solarion> with xrandr for all of it?
[21:56] <bryce> 2 screens - one xrandr for the lower two, and a separate screen for the upper
[21:56] <bryce> however I had mouse pointer trouble.  I could move it to the upper screen, but not back.
[21:56] <Solarion> right, I see there
[21:56] <Solarion> the problem is that you're doing a hybrid setup of straight X screens and xrandr outputs
[21:57] <Solarion> there lies madness.  I tried it when I went to Hardy.
[21:57] <Solarion> I got the same results as you
[21:57] <bryce> also it seemed to be fairly fragile, although that was with a fairly early version of -ati, so it's probably stabilized a lot since then
[21:57] <bryce> yeah probably so
[21:57] <Solarion> if you look at your Xorg.log files, I'd wager you'd see color tiling being disabled due to your Virtual size.
[21:57] <Solarion> color tiling is only available 2048x2048 and lower in my experience
[21:58] <bryce> makes sense
[21:58] <Solarion> I got the same tearing effects as you
[21:58] <Solarion> the pointers still get confused, though it's highly sensitive how you enable the second ATI output through xrandr
[21:58] <Solarion> the tearing goes away with Virtual 2048x2048 or lower
[21:59] <Solarion> and all ofthe weird virtual effects
[21:59] <Solarion> With the Magically Correct Output Ordering (--leftof and friends) I got it so that my mouse pointer would *mostly* work
[21:59] <bryce> ah interesting
[21:59] <Solarion> 1) it'd hop halfway going from :0.0 to :0.1 output 2
[22:00] <Solarion> which iirc was --right-of output 1
[22:00] <bryce> yeah
[22:01] <Solarion> If the Magic Ordering wasn't followed, though, you'd get 2) which was that the pointer would go from :0.0 to :0.1 output 1 skipping output 2 no matter what the ordering (--left-of. --right-of) was.
[22:01] <Solarion> I *think* I could still get to it through :0.1 screen 1, but that's no way to live
[22:01] <Solarion> anyhow, I need to get home
[22:01] <bryce> yeah I have a conf call.  ok, ttyl!
[22:02] <Solarion> l8r