[00:00] <LaserJock> I would love to see some stats on exactly what percentage of users have -backports enabled
[00:00] <persia> LaserJock: I'm not sure if rushing -updates helps right now, as we'd break anyone using unison as part of their migration effort to hardy.
[00:00] <persia> (unless we rushed -updates of a new upstream to all supported releases, but that's tricky)
[00:00] <LaserJock> it just seems like a big issue to leave to -updates
[00:01] <LaserJock> -backports rather
[00:01] <slangasek> mkrufky: the bug is currently marked as 'verification-needed'; a proposed fix is available but no one has confirmed that it works, could you please do this following the process on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates?
[00:01] <persia> LaserJock: Yeah, well, exactly two developers (jdong and I) were paying attention to it at all, and neither of us noticed when Debian uploaded to request a sync.
[00:01] <LaserJock> but as you say, we could maybe copy from -backports to -updates
[00:01] <mkrufky> argh
[00:02] <slangasek> mkrufky: since it's hardware-specific, we're more dependent than usual on users for the verification of the fix
[00:02] <mkrufky> slangasek: *I* proposed the fix
[00:02] <Jazzva> Anyone willing to review a merge proposal for ksimus - bug 225499? Thanks :).
[00:02] <mkrufky> slangasek: i can propose it AND confirm it?
[00:03] <ScottK> LaserJock: My thought was to get Unison into -backports and then copy into -updates from there.
[00:03] <slangasek> mkrufky: yes - AFAICS there are currently /no/ confirmations that the package that was uploaded to -proposed correctly fixes the issue :/
[00:03] <jdong> ScottK: why are we copying backwards-incompatible things into updates again?
[00:03] <slangasek> mkrufky: so having your confirmation would put us well ahead of where we are now
[00:03] <mkrufky> that sucks, slangasek -- i cannot roll back to gutsy -- i am on hardy now
[00:03] <LaserJock> ScottK: that does have some good reasoning to it I guess, although ideally -proposed would be just as good
[00:03] <ScottK> Jazzva: At this point in the cycle I'd be a lot more impressed with you getting the changed incorporated into the Debian package so we can sync it next month.
[00:03] <mkrufky> slangasek: im a kernel developer -- i have to stay current
[00:04] <slangasek> mkrufky: ah :/
[00:04] <LaserJock> ScottK: but my guess is that -backports has a lot more users than -proposed ;-)
[00:04] <ScottK> LaserJock: Ideally, but the threshold to get into backports is lower and we can at least point people there if they have problems while we sort it out.
[00:04] <mkrufky> slangasek: i am one of the maintainers of v4l-dvb kernel subsystem, *and* I work for the hardware manufacturer of these boards
[00:04] <mkrufky> slangasek: is that enough?
[00:05] <slangasek> mkrufky: well, what we're looking for is confirmation that the package that the kernel team uploaded really fixes the issue - that no mistakes were made integrating the updated firmware
[00:05] <ScottK> slangasek: Would you be willing to please accept the unison source backport for hardy-backports?
[00:05] <jdong> can we really not find 3 people with said hardware to confirm the SRU?
[00:05] <slangasek> ScottK: can it wait to Monday?
[00:05] <mkrufky> slangasek: in my experience, people report bugs when things are broken, and they keep quiet when things work.  in the bug report, it was explained where to find the new firmware, and where to put it.  i would assume that users simply installed the new firmware and decided to not care to report the success
[00:05] <ScottK> slangasek: Yes.
[00:05] <jdong> IMO *wave business cards* ==> instant fasttracked updates out of standard procedures == wrong...
[00:06] <mkrufky> slangasek: :-(  all i can say is that the 262144 firmware will no longer work -- we disabled it in the upstream kernel
[00:06] <ScottK> jdong: Was that aimed at me or mkrufky?
[00:06] <mkrufky> and i cant roll back to gutsy ...
[00:06] <jdong> ScottK: not you
[00:06] <ScottK> K
[00:07] <slangasek> mkrufky: quite plausible, but then that leaves us stalled with regard to the SRU process; we don't push updates out to all our users, including the many users without this hardware (== bandwidth + download time), without at least getting some confirmation that it's a valid fix
[00:07] <mkrufky> jdong: im not trying to fastrack this -- i reported this over a year ago
[00:07] <Jazzva> ScottK: Ok, I'll try. Thanks :)
[00:07] <jdong> mkrufky: understood, but there is an established verification procedure
[00:07] <mkrufky> too bad nobody gave the attention while gutsy still was current
[00:07] <jdong> mkrufky: and I'm trying to understand if it's truly prohibitively difficult to find 3 people to test/verify the fix?
[00:08] <slangasek> ScottK: then wait to Monday it shall; I'm quite thoroughly occupied with SRU triaging at the moment :)
[00:08] <ScottK> No problem.
[00:08] <mkrufky> i gave my knowledge to the bug tracker, i gave the bug and i gave the solution.  i am not offended if nobody wants to test it.  it sucks for the users that dont know how to google for answers
[00:09] <mkrufky> slangasek: thanks for explaining
[00:09] <slangasek> sure
[00:09]  * mkrufky goes home ... ttyl
[00:09] <mkrufky> oops
[00:09] <mkrufky> no..
[00:10] <mkrufky> slangasek: another tidbit of info just crossed my desk
[00:10] <mkrufky> Hauppauge licensed these firmware imaged to canonical
[00:11] <mkrufky> Hauppauge gave canonical the correct firmware image, ubuntu found their own and shipped something other than what was agreed on the license
[00:11] <mkrufky> anyway, it doesnt matter  -- hardy and intrepid have the correct images
[00:12] <slangasek> hrm, does that imply there's no license to distribute this older firmware version?
[00:12] <nxvl> ScottK: ping
[00:12] <nxvl> ScottK: i see that vim as already been merged from sid
[00:12] <nxvl> ScottK: and the change i wanted to add has ben already added
[00:12] <nxvl> ScottK: so now i just need to ask for a backport?
[00:12] <slangasek> also, if there's not a general license to /re/distribute the current firmware, then we may have a problem vis-a-vis the firmware's location in the archive...
[00:13] <mkrufky> a license + correct firmware was provided.  ubuntu shipped other firmware.  i filed bug 99107 immediately.  saw no action.  users send bug reports to v4l / dvb mailing lists, instead of launchpad // users get new firmware, everybody is happy
[00:13] <mkrufky> would have been nice to remove the intermediate step
[00:13] <mkrufky> for the future all is well
[00:13] <persia> mkrufky: If you really want to verify, you might try installing it from a liveCD (doesn't affect the installed system) and reporting the success.
[00:14] <mkrufky> persia: good idea -- i'll do so over the weekend
[00:14] <mkrufky> anyway, we need not waste any more time on this today -- thanks for the info
[00:15] <mkrufky> gotta run...
[00:34] <ffm> What's the first entry of a ubuntu changelog?
[00:34] <ffm> (for a new package)
[00:36] <azeem> something like " * Initial packaging"
[00:36] <azeem> I think
[00:37]  * persia prefers " * Initial Packaging (LP: #nnnnnn)"
[00:44] <ScottK> Although that doesn't actually close the bug when uploaded.
[00:44] <ScottK> nxvl: Sounds right.
[00:46] <persia> ScottK: No, but it provides a reference.  The bit about not closing the bug is a bug, as I see it.
[00:46] <persia> (plus it's good practice for looking at preparing a -1 for upload to Debian, where the bug does get closed)
[00:47] <ScottK> Right.  Wasn't suggesting it shouldn't be there, just that people should be aware that it didn't follow the principle of least suprise very well.
[00:48] <tbielawa> good evening folks
[00:48] <persia> Principle of least surprise?  Launchpad?
[00:49]  * persia likes launchpad, really, and is happy to use it, but finds it a constant source of surprise.  In humans, this is a good thing, so with appropriate anthropomistion, LP must be good.
[00:50] <LaserJock> lol
[00:50] <ScottK> jdong: nixternal successfully uploaded source backports today, so you may want to see if you have the powah too.
[00:52] <ScottK> persia: I'll just say that my opinion of launchpad's design seems to be pretty consistent no matter which part of it I'm looking at.
[00:52] <persia> ScottK: Ah.  Then you're not surprised.
[00:53] <ScottK> Some of the special ways tend to suprise me, but the overall tenor of the design is not suprising.
[00:55] <jdong> ScottK: oooh!
[00:55] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what to think about LP
[00:56] <ScottK> I expect it's just for Universe packages jdong.
[00:56] <LaserJock> I've used bugzill a tad with Gnome and Fedora
[00:56] <jdong> ScottK: ok
[00:56] <LaserJock> and it seems ok, but not really spectacular
[00:56] <tbielawa> I'm used to RT
[00:57] <azeem> trac ftw
[00:57] <ScottK> I suspect that the database engine part of it is really good.  Keeping so much data synchronized with pretty low latency is a tough thing.
[00:57] <tbielawa> still finding out which buttons to push in LP :)
[00:57] <ScottK> I just find the user facing part of it really hard to deal with.
[00:57] <LaserJock> I don't mind it too much
[00:58] <ScottK> I could forgive a lot more if the U/I were just faster.
[00:58] <LaserJock> sometimes it's "nifty", sometimes it's "bummer", but in general it gets the job done
[00:58] <LaserJock> I don't seem to have any problems with UI speed
[00:58] <LaserJock> maybe it's the connection I'm on
[00:59] <ScottK> I'm sitting on a 10mb internet pipe.  I don't think it's that.
[01:00] <jdong> LaserJock: it's launchpad's fault
[01:00] <jdong> I'm on a 100mbit connection with a 78ms latency to their server
[01:00] <jdong> they take roughly 3-5s to answer any given bug tracker query for me
[01:01] <LaserJock> hmm
[01:01]  * cody-somerville blames python.
[01:01] <ScottK> cody-somerville: I don't think that's it.
[01:02] <wgrant> ScottK: There's no data to synchronise - it's all on one Postgres server.
[01:02] <wgrant> I think with the amount of data some queries have to handle, it'd be hard to make it a whole lot faster.
[01:02] <ScottK> I think it's excessive interest in a whizbang pretty web u/i and little interest in usability
[01:02] <jdong> cody-somerville: heh I doubt it's python, google seems to make it work just fine :)
[01:03] <LaserJock> jdong: 3-5s for searches?
[01:03] <wgrant> jdong: Almost no user-facing code is Python, apparently.
[01:03] <wgrant> Mainly internal development tools.
[01:03] <jdong> LaserJock: yeah
[01:03] <jdong> LaserJock: the minimum search time
[01:03] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't do many of those, let me try it
[01:03] <jdong> LaserJock: more complex queries take bloody longer
[01:03] <LaserJock> I just go to individual pages
[01:04] <ScottK> Even with those.
[01:04] <ffm> Hey, how do I create a REVU account?
[01:04] <ScottK> I look at a PTS package page and how fast that loads and an LP package page and the wait difference is substantial.
[01:04] <wgrant> ffm: Join ~revu-uploaders, and upload something.
[01:04] <ffm> wgrant, I joined, but my auth is not accepted.
[01:04] <ScottK> !revu | ffm
[01:05] <LaserJock> ok, I guess I just did a search and it took 12s
[01:05] <wgrant> ScottK: They're completely different. One has to perform DB queries, and one is static pages.
[01:05] <ScottK> wgrant: That's an implementation detail.  As a developer the perform similar functions for me.
[01:05] <ScottK> the/they
[01:05] <ScottK> One with waiting, one without.
[01:06] <wgrant> True.
[01:06] <LaserJock> I guess speed just doesn't matter for me too much
[01:06] <wgrant> Note that you can tell if it's LP or you by looking at the end of the HTML for any edge page.
[01:07] <LaserJock> "at least 59 queries issued in 12.04 seconds"
[01:07] <ffm> wgrant, the wiki page isn't too clear.
[01:07] <wgrant> LaserJock: Ow.
[01:07] <wgrant> Nice quick queries.
[01:07] <LaserJock> it's a bit of a slow day
[01:07] <wgrant> ffm: You need to upload something before you get an account.
[01:07] <ffm> oh....
[01:08] <jdong> wgrant: haha
[01:08] <jdong> that's a GREAT response time :)
[01:08] <LaserJock> I really like PTS
[01:08] <LaserJock> but overall Launchpad does quite a bit more
[01:08] <ffm> wgrant, is "Not running dinstall." a normal output message for dput?
[01:09] <LaserJock> though i'm not sure if all of it's needed
[01:09] <jdong> yes, that's normal
[01:09] <wgrant> ffm: Correct.
[01:09] <ScottK> LaserJock: It does do quite a bit more and it is also much better integrated.
[01:10] <LaserJock> I don't find BTS to be as easy to look at
[01:10] <ScottK> But, at what cost.  I mostly end up typing urls/tab completing to navigate, so all the whiz bang navigation features don't actually manage to help me much.
[01:10] <LaserJock> but it's got some good features
[01:10] <LaserJock> do the whiz bang navigation features get in the way?
[01:11] <wgrant> IMO Malone is better than BTS, except for the slowness and lack of version tracking.
[01:11] <ScottK> I think they're a big part of the page renderin gtime.
[01:11] <StevenK> I tend to type out a full URL, like a source package, and then navigating from there.
[01:11] <LaserJock> wgrant: the version tracking was what I was thinking of
[01:11] <LaserJock> StevenK: me as well
[01:11] <wgrant> StevenK: I think that's normal use.
[01:11] <wgrant> Does anybody know how to get to a sourcepackage page otherwise?
[01:11] <LaserJock> ScottK: you think? I have no idea
[01:11] <LaserJock> wgrant: yes
[01:11] <wgrant> Oh! How?
[01:12] <LaserJock> From the Launchpad front page
[01:12] <LaserJock> you go to the Ubuntu page
[01:12] <ScottK> LaserJock: Mostly I know it seemed much slower after they rolled out the beta css based pages.
[01:12] <LaserJock> then search for the package
[01:12] <LaserJock> then find the right one in the search results
[01:12] <wgrant> Ah, so that searches sources?
[01:12] <LaserJock> and binary I believe
[01:12] <wgrant> Wow.
[01:12] <LaserJock> it can get really messy
[01:12] <azeem> does packages.u.c have a link to the launchpad page?
[01:13] <wgrant> That's one fugly list.
[01:13] <ScottK> Yes.  It does although there's no guarantee that an exact match will even be in the first 100 results.
[01:13] <tbielawa> does anyone have any apps they used to query and interact with the LP platform?
[01:13] <ScottK> azeem: No.  P.U.C is not done by Canonical.
[01:13] <StevenK> ScottK: Some of the time has to be attributed to Firefox's rendering, since it doesn't actually begin rendering until it has the full source in a parse tree
[01:13] <wgrant> It also seems to think that it should put inexact matches first.
[01:13] <tbielawa> seems like there is at least two I saw for debian tracker
[01:13] <azeem> ScottK: but sponsored by it I thought
[01:13] <tbielawa> something, gui
[01:13] <LaserJock> azeem: no
[01:13] <slangasek> azeem: no, djpig runs it up until now
[01:13] <slangasek> (and he wants out :)
[01:14] <azeem> slangasek: he can do whatever he wants with a .u.c site?
[01:14] <azeem> well, ok
[01:14] <wgrant> tbielawa: python-launchpad-bugs works sort of, but a proper Launchpad API is coming RSN®
[01:14] <wgrant> And has been for ages.
[01:14] <LaserJock> azeem: he hosted it personally
[01:14] <LaserJock> azeem: I assume packages.u.c was a redirct
[01:14] <ScottK> StevenK: True, but Firefox's ideas about rendering aren't new.  They are an aspect of the system in which LP lives and should properly be considered in the design.
[01:15] <LaserJock> wgrant: I think it actually may be RSN :-)
[01:15] <wgrant> Firefox's rendering isn't *that* sluggish.
[01:15] <wgrant> LaserJock: It has been deferred repeatedly.
[01:15] <wgrant> But we might see it for 1.2.5, I guess.
[01:15] <LaserJock> wgrant: I know, but I have semi-reliable sources
[01:15] <ScottK> Konqueror wants all the images downloaded before it will show you anything (just to increase the fun factor).
[01:16] <wgrant> ScottK: Even if you specify the size?
[01:16] <ScottK> I haven't actually investigated it much.
[01:16] <ScottK> I just watch the number of images increase in the lower left corner until it says x of x images downloaded and then the page appears.
[01:17] <tbielawa> wgrant: it's a library, that makes me sad. no app yet
[01:17] <LaserJock> jdong: btw, thanks for the HandBrake suggestion, today I got Bourne Supremacy and Pirates of the Caribbean on my iPod :-)
[01:18] <wgrant> tbielawa: Correct. It's too slow.
[01:18] <jdong> LaserJock: fantastic to hear :)
[01:18] <jdong> LaserJock: now let's pounce on lucidfox the next time he comes in :)
[01:18] <jdong> LaserJock: he was the last person to attempt packaging it IIRC :)
[01:19] <LaserJock> oh, that would be nice
[01:19] <LaserJock> I went the route of least resistance and got the OS X version
[01:20] <tbielawa> lets hear some good stories. does anyone have any bug trackers they are quite fond of?
[01:20] <jdong> LaserJock: ah :) that's nice too
[01:20] <jdong> tbielawa: as a developer I enjoy /dev/null
[01:20] <jdong> it makes my life happier
[01:20] <tbielawa> :-|
[01:20] <LaserJock> I like gmail+tomboy :-)
[01:21]  * slangasek runs away
[01:21] <jdong> rofl
[01:21] <crimsun> there are no boogs.
[01:21] <ScottK> To put the speed/convenience question in perspective, yesterday I was checking Ubuntu diffs to see if I could request syncs and I just started looking at the Ubuntu patch in PTS rather than try to find anything out about the package from LP.
[01:21] <jdong> I like using OpenOffice Base
[01:21] <jdong> it's faster than launchpad
[01:21] <ScottK> It was easy/faster.
[01:21] <jdong> (sadly that's probably true... too...)
[01:21] <tbielawa> oh this is neat, OOB
[01:22] <LaserJock> ScottK: it really bugs you that much?
[01:22] <ScottK> I actually like bugzilla.
[01:22] <LaserJock> bugzilla isn't too bad
[01:22] <ScottK> I can pull up the Ubuntu patch and review it faster than I can find the debian/changelog info in LP.
[01:23] <LaserJock> but to be honest I'm more confused by bugzilla's ui than I am with LP's
[01:23] <ScottK> Yes.  As U/I's go, the current LP U/I isn't extremely confusing.  I just think it's more confusing than that pre-beta U/I.
[01:24] <ScottK> So it's on a down hill slide.
[01:24] <LaserJock> anything Sourceforge is rough for me
[01:24] <ScottK> There trackers aren't so great.
[01:24] <LaserJock> their email archives and bug tracking are uggg
[01:24] <tbielawa> SF is rough
[01:24] <ScottK> Yeah.
[01:24] <tbielawa> admining a project there is sick nasty weird the first time
[01:24] <LaserJock> I've done a little with savannah, it's not too bad
[01:26] <slangasek> nxvl: I don't understand your last follow-up to bug #189616
[01:32] <ffm> Hey, my package hasn't appeared on REVU, and its been 30 mins.
[01:37] <ffm> Hello...
[01:37] <sladen> ffm: has it appeared now.  You spoke just after an xx:30
[01:37] <sladen> ffm: Hello...
[01:37] <ffm> sladen, No.
[01:39] <sladen> ffm: what was your upload?
[01:39] <sladen> last it there is kgrubeditor
[01:39] <ffm> sladen, "thinkcspy" was the package name.
[01:39] <sladen> what was your dput command to upload it?
[01:40] <ffm> sladen,
[01:40] <ffm> sladen, dput revu thinkcspy2_2.0.0alpha1-1_source.changes
[01:41] <wgrant> ffm: Have you had the keyring synced since you joined the team?
[01:41] <persia> slangasek: Surely s/i be/it be/, no?
[01:41] <ffm> wgrant, no, would that be an issue?
[01:42] <wgrant> ffm: It would.
[01:42] <slangasek> persia: tried that already, it doesn't clarify it for me :)
[01:42] <wgrant> I'll sync it, then you'll need to try again.
[01:43] <persia> slangasek: Ah.  I read it as a request for the upload to the PPA to be reviewed and processed as a possible SRU.  I may be mistaken, but it somehow seems wrong that if the software isn't working as shipped for that bug reporter that a custom fix is applied.
[01:44] <slangasek> persia: oh, well, it certainly is in line for SRUhood, but turnaround on testing (since we're not to the bottom of the bug yet) is probably faster using a PPA for now
[01:45] <persia> slangasek: Makes sense: I'm just trying to interpret the comment :)
[01:45] <slangasek> persia: you may be right, thanks :)
[01:51] <ffm> wgrant, still no dice
[01:51] <ffm> but I'll wait a while.
[01:52] <wgrant> ffm: The sync just finished.
[01:53] <jdong> 'da SRUhood :)
[01:53]  * jdong likes that
[01:55] <wgrant> ffm: gpg: Can't check signature: public key not found
[01:55] <wgrant> ffm: What's your Launchpad username?
[02:02] <ffm> wgrant, ~ffm
[02:03] <wgrant> ffm: The key you used is not associated with your Launchpad account.
[02:03] <ffm> oops.
[02:05] <ffm> wgrant, fixed.
[02:06] <wgrant> ffm: The keyring is resyncing. I'll advise you when to upload again.
[02:07] <nxvl> slangasek: as i understand it, mathiaz fix it, and upload it on his ppa
[02:08] <nxvl> slangasek: but i don't understand if he's going to include it on hardy or just publish the patch inthere
[02:09] <slangasek> nxvl: he's provided a test package that will allow us to /verify/ whether we've identified the problem; we haven't gotten to the root of the problem yet
[02:09] <nxvl> slangasek: oh! ok ok
[02:09] <nxvl> slangasek: but did you know if mathiaz reproduced the problem?
[02:09] <ffm> wgrant, I don't have to resync my keys, do I?
[02:09] <nxvl> slangasek: cause i can't
[02:09] <wgrant> persia: I believe all MDT stuff is up and running on Intrepid now.
[02:09] <wgrant> ffm: No.
[02:10] <slangasek> nxvl: we think the problem is one of hitting a login limit, that wasn't enforced in the dapper version of dovecot
[02:10] <persia> wgrant: Excellent.  If you don't mind, I'll remove the "currently offline" :)  How about UEHS?
[02:10] <slangasek> nxvl: so mathiaz can reproduce hitting the limit, yes
[02:10] <nxvl> ScottK: mm, i think i better wait until ibex+1 is announced and fix this "issue" on ibex
[02:11] <wgrant> persia: I've already removed that.
[02:11] <nxvl> slangasek: so, the problem is that the default value of the limit is rejecting connections?
[02:11] <wgrant> persia: UEHS will take some time longer. It needs various extra bits and pieces like PostgreSQL.
[02:11]  * nxvl downloads the package
[02:11] <persia> wgrant: Heh.  I guess I hit cache.
[02:12] <slangasek> nxvl: the problem is that a) there's no logging to let you know you've hit the limit, b) the enforcement of the limit is an upstream "bugfix" post-dapper that has effects that were surprising, c) login processes may or may not be reaping properly, we don't know yet
[02:13] <wgrant> ffm: Try to upload again, please. Tell me when it's done, so I can process it immediately.
[02:13] <wgrant> Ah, done already, I see.
[02:13] <nxvl> slangasek: that's what i thougt
[02:13] <persia> Regarding UEHS, not such a hurry: according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule we've about 9 weeks for open clears, and another 9 for reviewed clears.
[02:13] <ffm> wgrant, I just tried and got a 553 error
[02:14] <wgrant> Gah, it just hit another indentation issue.
[02:14]  * wgrant fixes.
[02:15] <ffm> wgrant, done.
[02:16] <wgrant> ffm: Yay, it didn't crash this time.
[02:17] <ffm> wgrant, woot
[02:17] <wgrant> ffm: It's on revu.ubuntuwire.com now.
[02:17] <ffm> wgrant, I see. Thanks muchly.
[02:17]  * wgrant throws some whitespace at RainCT.
[02:17] <nxvl> slangasek: so the fix for now is to warn the user about this issue but not to "fix" it?
[02:18] <slangasek> nxvl: potentially so, yes
[02:18] <slangasek> well - dovecot should log something when it hits the limit
[02:18] <slangasek> so that it's easier to troubleshoot
[02:19] <nxvl> slangasek: yes, but if i want a limit (i.e. 50 connection) i want that there is 50 conections, not less
[02:20] <nxvl> slangasek: but that's an issue in dovecot, not ours
[02:20] <ffm> wgrant, so, how do I ask nicely for my revu to be revu'ed?
[02:21] <wgrant> ffm: I don't deal with that side of things much, so I'm not sure.
[02:21] <ffm> Anyone else?
[02:22] <nxvl> btw
[02:22] <persia> ffm: No information has yet been announced for REVUing for intrepid.  For hardy, there was a special day once a week (Mondays) during which there was a commitment to review packages, and some packages were reviewed more often.  You might paste the REVU URL here, but I doubt many developers will be reviewing before UDS.
[02:22] <nxvl> does anyone knows what was about the tread of splitting mentors in 2 groups?
[02:22] <nxvl> persia: sis you remember this?
[02:23] <nxvl> s/sis/did
[02:24] <persia> nxvl: I think that our indomitable Mentoring Facilitator became swamped with the discrepancy between mentoring requests and mentoring offers, and hasn't had time to follow-up.
[02:24] <slangasek> nxvl: currently, there's no evidence that the connection limit is lower than what is documented; part of the problem is that there are some perverse IMAP clients in existence that make multiple connections
[02:25] <nxvl> slangasek: that's what i'm talking about
[02:25] <nxvl> slangasek: i know the issue is on the clients
[02:25] <nxvl> slangasek: but there must be any way to make it work as it is
[02:25] <nxvl> s/is/should/
[02:26] <nxvl> persia: mm, that's bad
[02:26] <nxvl> persia: it would be really nice to have pre-motu mentors
[02:26] <slangasek> nxvl: if you mean associating multiple client connections with one another so that they don't count against the login limit, then I don't think that's either practical or reasonable
[02:26] <persia> nxvl: Write up a plan and check with the Mentoring facilitator.  There's a decent chance that you could be part of getting it implemented.
[02:26] <nxvl> slangasek: mm, yes, you are right
[02:27] <nxvl> slangasek: well, a warning should fix the problem, now the sysadmins know whats going on
[02:27] <nxvl> persia: i will talk to norsetto tomorrow or in the worst case at UDS
[02:28]  * ScottK is still looking for some evidence that the mentoring program is helping.
[02:28] <nxvl> persia: because i plan to become a MOTU this release cycle, and there are lots of things i must learn about being a motu
[02:28] <nxvl> ScottK: don't
[02:28] <nxvl> ScottK: there isn't any :D
[02:28] <nxvl> ScottK: at least the way it is now
[02:29] <ScottK> That's my expectation.  I didn't think it was a great idea to start with and haven't seen anything to change my mind.
[02:29] <nxvl> ScottK: as you said before, ubuntu-classroom should't exist as well as the motu-mentors list
[02:29] <ScottK> ubuntu-classroom is different as that's for all kinds of things.
[02:30] <nxvl> it only splits the community in contributors and developers
[02:30] <nxvl> which shouldnt't happend
[02:30] <persia> I'm not sure I'm opposed to the motu-mentors mailing list, but it's purpose has become confused with the MOTU Mentoring program.
[02:30] <nxvl> persia: and what was about this 3th team you were proposing
[02:30] <ScottK> persia: I don't see the need.
[02:30] <nxvl> persia: the monkeys of the universe or something like this
[02:30] <ScottK> I don't know what need motu-mentoring list provides that the regular motu-ml can't cover just fine.
[02:31] <persia> ScottK: I believe the idea was to support assistance outside of IRC, so that if nobody here could answer the question, it could be asked somewhere.  It's not used that way.
[02:31] <ScottK> Right.  I think that's on topic for the regular list.
[02:31] <ScottK> I don't see a need to segregate such mails.
[02:32] <ScottK> Back in a bit.
[02:33] <persia> ScottK: Makes sense.  Like I said, I'm not sure I'm opposed, whereas I was certainly opposed to how the MOTU Mentoring program started (although I can imagine there existing a solution)
[02:35] <persia> nxvl: That was an available identity for Prospective Decelopers are listed on https;//wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers, and might have carried some set of permissions to reduce the number of things a prospective developer need do to "sign up".  I've been convinced that it's not that useful until LP-based mailing lists are more central, and the LP entitlements matrix is less opaque.
[02:36] <tbielawa> whoa
[02:36] <persia> s/are/as/
[02:40] <nxvl> mm
[02:41] <nxvl> that makes sense
[02:41] <nxvl> well, i will wait until i feel ready to become a motu to start thinking in those things
[02:44]  * jdong grumbles about firefox mouse gesture usability
[02:45] <jdong> they implemented 8-way directions
[02:45] <ScottK> nxvl: You might consider joining the new universe-contributors team.  I think you've certainly got a good record of sustained contribution.
[02:45] <jdong> such that if you drag left and in the process go down 10 pixels, it registers as south-west-ish
[02:45] <tbielawa> is there a tolerance setting?
[02:46] <jdong> tbielawa: looking now, but settings are no excuse for poor defaults
[02:46] <ScottK> jdong: I find that most of my Firefox usability issues are solved by using Konqueror.
[02:46] <nxvl> ScottK: i was asking about it, it is already implemented? cause daniel was looking for a name for it
[02:46]  * nxvl opens LP
[02:46] <ScottK> nxvl: Look at the archive for the motu council mail list.  There are already several applications being processed.
[02:46] <jdong> diagonal tolerance: 60%
[02:46] <jdong> so if you're within 60% of what's considered a "diagonal" then it registers a diagonal.
[02:46] <ScottK> jdong: Firefox is an example, IMO, that didn't know when they were done.
[02:46] <jdong> lovely.
[02:47] <tbielawa> ...dpkg was cool, simple -- effective... pdebuild is frustrating
[02:47] <tbielawa> *dpkg-buildpackage
[02:47] <jdong> tbielawa: pdebuild is more advanced though
[02:47] <tbielawa> Ya
[02:47] <jdong> tbielawa: it has to set up an entire virtual ubuntu install
[02:47] <tbielawa> I am forcing my7self to use it so I can make this intrepid build
[02:47] <jdong> tbielawa: and for that, it's MUCH better at testing
[02:47] <ScottK> FF was supposed to be a simple/lightweight alternative to the Mozilla suite, but it hasn't been that for a long time.
[02:47] <jdong> tbielawa: from personal experience I've screwed up test build results before because my host system has a few 3rd party packages
[02:48] <jdong> using pdebuild/pbuilder is very important to proper development :)
[02:48] <tbielawa> jdong: so you figured out your pbuild pretty quick then huh
[02:48] <jdong> ScottK: firefox3 fixes most of their resource usage issues, but the hardy version shiped with some nasty bugs
[02:48] <jdong> such as the urlclassifier sync lag
[02:48] <jdong> ScottK: I do love konqueror. its UI is truly non-blocking threaded
[02:49] <ScottK> tbielawa: There's a script in ubuntu-dev-tools called pbuilder-dist that assists in automating a lot of the pbuilder setup.  You might look at that.
[02:49] <jdong> tbielawa: well it took me a while to get started with it but afterwards it becomes second nature
[02:49] <tbielawa> ScottK:  ohhhhhhm I'll check that out right niow
[02:49] <ScottK> FF 1.0 was great.  The ones since then, not so much.
[02:49] <nxvl> ScottK: mm, i will search documentation about the process :S
[02:51] <nxvl> damn i need to prepare my list of contributions and find some sponsors again
[02:51] <nxvl> i will hit the motu council at UDS
[02:51] <nxvl> :D
[02:51]  * nxvl loves prague
[02:53] <persia> nxvl: UDS is precisely the wrong time to formally apply to the MC for anything.  Best times are end-UDS through about BetaRelease.
[02:54] <nxvl> persia: but at prague i can cry in front of you :D
[02:55] <persia> nxvl: Well, if you really, really, really have a desire to do so.
[02:56] <nxvl> persia: i'm just joking
[02:56] <nxvl> at pregue i will present peruvian LoCo team to the LoCo Council, 2 presentations are quite to much for a week
[02:57]  * nxvl writes his applications for -contributors
[02:57] <persia> nxvl: What's your LP ID?
[02:58] <nxvl> persia: nvalcarcel
[02:58]  * persia can never remember how to spell valcarcel
[02:59] <nxvl> persia: i have problem with your lastname too, so we are ok :D
[02:59] <persia> nxvl: You already have all the rights and priveleges appertaining unto the -contributors team.  Unless something changes, no point applying.
[02:59] <nxvl> i do?
[03:00] <nxvl> how?
[03:01] <nxvl> oh!
[03:01] <nxvl> ok ok
[03:01] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, i'll try follow your footsteps... you are my idol... lol hheheeh
[03:01] <nxvl> so, you mean that even not being part of contributors i already have all the privileges -contributor gave to new people
[03:01] <tbielawa_smk_brk> ScottK: pbuilder-dist is _exactly_ the kind of tool I was looking for
[03:02] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: go learn some packaging and shut up
[03:02] <nxvl> :D
[03:02] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: i don't see you name on the changelog
[03:02] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: so go and merge something
[03:02] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, i will i will as soon as i finish stuying for my CCNA exan later tonight
[03:02] <tbielawa_smk_brk> ScottK:  it felt earlier like making one change was going to equate to manually making it a few different ways (inprepid, debian, etc) if I was going to be a nice dev
[03:03] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: i'm hearing that since hardy....
[03:03] <wgrant> RoAkSoAx: Chapter, subject, or final?
[03:03] <RoAkSoAx> wgrant, chapter 10 and 11 of Module 1
[03:03] <RoAkSoAx> CCNAv4 Exploration
[03:03] <wgrant> Ah, that evil v4.
[03:03] <ScottK> tbielawa_smk_brk: Great.  Thanks LaserJock and RainCT (not here right now).  That's their work.
[03:04] <nxvl> tbielawa_smk_brk: pbuilder rocks
[03:04] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, at least i try one this time.. and got a sync :)
[03:04] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: yep, at least
[03:04] <RoAkSoAx> wgrant, yeah v4... it's fun :)
[03:04] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: that's why i'm not going to aqp to slap you
[03:05] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, some guy that has a company here wants me to help him doing conferences about ubuntu and stuff so i might be needing you here in a couple months :P
[03:06] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: if it is weekend, there is no problem
[03:06] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: BUT my girlfrind goes with me :P
[03:06] <RoAkSoAx> nxvl, haha ok i will let you know... :)
[03:11] <nxvl> RoAkSoAx: not, really my girlfriend doesn't need to go, but it will be great if she goes :D
[03:27] <persia> Anyone feel like some testing?  Tracking down anything in http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/unchanged/unchanged_since_warty that doesn't work in one way or another would make for a fairly easy target.  If nothing else, some of these would benefit from having -dbgsym packages, and many might FTBFS.
[03:31]  * nxvl looks
[03:31] <TheMuso> persia: Whats the best approach for getting a -dbgsym package?
[03:31] <wgrant> TheMuso: Rebuild.
[03:32] <TheMuso> I thought as much, but wanted to be sure.
[03:32] <persia> TheMuso: Upload it.  If I remember correctly, we've only build -dbgsym since mid-feisty or so, so anything not updated since edgy or earlier that would generate a symbols table (e.g. compiled C or C++) doesn't have one.
[03:32] <persia> s/build/built/
[03:32] <TheMuso> Right.
[03:32] <ScottK> persia: It might be nice to have the union of that list and the FTBFS list from wgrant
[03:33] <ScottK> wgrant's Hardy rebuilds
[03:33] <persia> wgrant: Is that possible?
[03:34] <kees> TheMuso: if you install "pkgbinarymangler" in your build chroots, you'll get -dbgsym packages locally
[03:34]  * persia gives complete credit for the unchanged_since_quux lists to wgrant
[03:34] <TheMuso> kees: Right, I'm just weighing up whether the package I'm looking at needs them, and I don't think so.
[03:34] <persia> kees: Right, but these are packages that haven't been rebuilt in the archives in the past few years, meaning any apport reports are useless.
[03:34] <wgrant> ScottK: I can try to arrange that.
[03:35] <wgrant> Hm, Warty really was quite a while ago!
[03:35] <persia> (and isn't it "pkg-create-dbgsym" that needs to be in the chroot?)
[03:35] <ScottK> Then maybe we make an automatic removal request script and feed that list into the removal script.
[03:35] <wgrant> UEHS almost seems to be working now.
[03:36] <persia> ScottK: Why removal?  A number of them are doc packages or data packages, and still valid and useful, unless you're looking at an intersection, rather than a union.
[03:36] <kees> persia: yeah, sorry, I was trying to say you could verify it builds and get local dbysyms at the same time
[03:36] <ScottK> Right.  I said untion, but was thinking intersection.
[03:36] <ScottK> union even
[03:36] <persia> kees: Sure, but for these, it's likely that they won't get -dbgsym by natural attrition anytime soon, so it might make sense to force it.
[03:37] <kees> persia: right, absolutely.
[03:37] <persia> ScottK: Ah, for intersection, I'd agree it's an interesting list for a look, but some of the FTBFS could be easy, and the binaries may be in use (just because we didn't rebuild it doesn't mean we didn't ship it, and users don't use it)
[03:38] <kees> I did something similar for main during gutsy to get the stack protector activated.
[03:38] <persia> kees: Actually, you'd probably like to see even more rebuilds, to use your shiny new flags :)
[03:38] <kees> I'll likely do it again for intrepid
[03:38]  * kees phears hiss flags a little
[03:38] <kees> er his
[03:38] <wgrant> Heh.
[03:38] <wgrant> Rightly so.
[03:38] <persia> heh
[03:38] <RoAkSoAx> i would like to do an easy FTBFS :) since im just learning packaging =)
[03:40] <persia> RoAkSoAx: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ is a good place to start, although I don't know how many easy ones will show up before the autosync really gets going.
[03:40] <RoAkSoAx> persia, thanks =)
[03:51] <persia> Did the fortran transition not complete for Hardy, or is http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ not correct?
[03:52] <wgrant> persia: That looks fine to me.
[03:52] <wgrant> Odd to see that g77 is gone, though...
[03:54] <persia> The two that made me wonder were g77 and libgfortran1
[03:57] <ScottK> persia: We finished in -updates.
[03:58] <persia> ScottK: Ah.  OK.  Just skew then.  Is everything from updates in intrepid now?
[03:59] <ScottK> persia: I'm pretty certain not as I know I have at least one upload to do.
[04:00] <persia> ScottK: OK.  Do you know if anyone is tracking it?  Be a shame for the autosync to stomp on something.  I'm up for a few blind uploads if there's a list to track.
[04:01] <ScottK> persia: Not sure.  I considered that a motu-sru responsiblity.
[04:01] <persia> ScottK: Hmmm.  I'm of two minds about it, but I can understand that assignment.
[04:01] <persia> Anyone from motu-sru tracking those?
[04:03] <ScottK> Dunno.  /me isn't in motu-sru.
[04:03]  * ScottK blames jdong.
[04:04] <persia> LaserJock, imbrandon, DktrKranz2, TheMuso, jdong: Anyone looking at pushing all the -updates into intrepid before autosync?
[04:05] <TheMuso> persia: I've pushed the couple of updates I was responsible for, but as for the others, I don't have time now, I will tomorrow however.
[04:05] <persia> TheMuso: Do you need a hand?  I've a signing key, but don't know what needs hitting (or if there is a list).
[04:06] <TheMuso> persia: I don't really have a list either. I was just going to go through my SRU bug mail and have a look, but as I said, I've no time today. As it is I'm about to head off to get ready to head out.
[04:06] <persia> TheMuso: Understood.  Have a good afternoon.
[04:07] <crimsun> pavucontrol will likely warrant hardy-backports.
[04:08] <ScottK> persia: I just forward-ported the one SRU I sponsored.
[04:10] <persia> ScottK: Great.  Just to expand on my "two minds" point: I think motu-sru has an interest in pushing them into intrepid as part of SRU management, and that motu-release has an interest in getting them pushed into intrepid before autosync so that the upload doesn't become invalid and gets tracked by the merge tools.
[04:10] <bddebian> Heya gang
[04:11] <ScottK> persia: It appears to me that autosync is running now, so part of that is OBE.
[04:11] <persia> ScottK: Ah.  Nevermind then.
[04:11]  * persia determines to be more careful to schedule available time between release and autosync start in October
[04:12] <ScottK> There's currently 15,000+ packages sitting in a needs building state, so I'm pretty sure that's autosync.
[04:12] <persia> That would be autosync indeed.
[04:12] <wgrant> The buildds should get through them much, much more quickly this time.
[04:12] <wgrant> queue-builder won't stall for 1.5 hours any more.
[04:13] <persia> wgrant: Why?  Better hardware, or lots of 10-second failures?
[04:13] <wgrant> persia: Soyuz not sucking so much.
[04:13] <persia> Ah, even better
[04:13] <wgrant> So we won't have buildds sitting idle for the best part of each hour.
[04:13] <Hobbsee> wgrant: you can't say that soyuz sucks.  or did suck.
[04:16] <wgrant> I think that queue-builder's performance six months ago was pretty good evidence that that part of Soyuz sucked.
[04:17]  * persia notes that "queue-builder has directly contributed to a significant improvement in Soyuz performance, with a reduction in machine wear, and increase in capacity that should allow for a larger volume of package improvements in the intrepid cycle" is what was likely meant by "Soyuz not sucking so much"
[04:19] <wgrant> Hah. Probably.
[04:20] <wgrant> Too many upstream sites are very slow :(
[04:21]  * persia wants a marketing droid module in filters
[04:22] <wgrant> You make a remarkably good one.
[04:22] <wgrant> I've not seen one better.
[04:22] <persia> wgrant: Yes, but it requires me to think.  Be better with cut & paste.
[04:23]  * ScottK imagines that dholbach's next community initiative (following up on 5 and really-fix-it) might be "Let's suck out the suckage."
[04:24] <persia> Erm.  That's just not good copy.
[04:24] <ScottK> You're a better marketing droid than I am.
[04:26] <Hobbsee> maybe ScottK will come up iwth a community initiative
[04:27] <ScottK> Actually I think that the get rid of kmos initiative has had (eventually) a remarkably positive effect on the community.  I claim credit for that one.
[04:29] <ScottK> Of course I had help ...
[04:32]  * bddebian hopes he never gets on ScottK's really bad side :)
[04:33]  * wgrant evicts bddebian.
[04:33] <persia> What?  How can one evict a deity.  Deities, by very nature, are supralegal
[04:33] <bddebian> What's with this wgrant stuff? :)
[04:34] <persia> bddebian: He's succombed to the irresistible force of identification.
[04:34] <wgrant> Did the DEHS devs deliberately break all but one of my ~20 diff hunks, or was I very unluck?
[04:35] <wgrant> *unlucky
[04:35] <Hobbsee> ScottK: nice.  but that was months ago.
[04:36] <Hobbsee> my community initiatives failed, so it's someone else's turn.
[04:37] <tbielawa> has anyone else had an issue with pbuilder-dist failing making a sid environment?
[04:38] <tbielawa> I don't like to ask but I'm not getting anywhere with it (going back to regular pbuilder --dist... --mirror..) now
[04:39] <Hobbsee> tbielawa: pastebin the erorrs?
[04:40] <tbielawa> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9672/
[04:40] <tbielawa> (same error occurs using pbuilder and pbuilder-dist methods)
[04:41] <pwnguin> is it really nessecary to duplicate AUTHORS in debian/copyright?
[04:42] <persia> pwnguin: Only the names and dates.  Other information need not be there.
[04:42] <pwnguin> fun
[04:43] <tbielawa> http://paste.ubuntu.com/9674/ here's the entire thing if you're interested
[04:43] <ffm> Any idea when the REVU instructions will be released for intrepid?
[04:43] <persia> pwnguin: Don't forget to reverify against all the source files as well :)
[04:43]  * nixternal is getting a headache updating all of these new kde4 packages
[04:43] <Hobbsee> ffm: they haven't changed...
[04:43] <persia> nixternal: Any idea when the next REVU day is scheduled?
[04:44] <ffm> Hobbsee, I ment the next REVU day .
[04:44] <nixternal> ya, I am going to shoot either the week prior to UDS or a week or 2 after UDS
[04:44] <nixternal> I am going to pick a day where I can be around that entire day w/o any interruptions
[04:45] <persia> nixternal: OK.  The more advance warning you can give, the more we can all prepare to also set aside time :)
[04:45] <ffm> !uds
[04:45] <ffm> nixternal, How about the week prior?
[04:46] <nixternal> ya, I am thinking the week prior may be best
[04:46]  * Hobbsee suspects merges are more important.
[04:46] <nixternal> I am going to schedule repeating REVU days either once a month or bi-weekly....work people to death!
[04:46] <Hobbsee> oh dear.
[04:46] <persia> Hobbsee: *more* important?  While I'm all in favour of working on bugs and updates rather than new packages, I'm not sure that the people who work on one are exactly the same people who work on the other.
[04:47] <Hobbsee> persia: well, at least for the core stuff, which the new packages build-dep on.
[04:47] <wgrant> Can people please test various bits of REVU as much as possible? There have been some changes lately, and I've fixed three issues in the past 24 hours, so there are likely more.
[04:47] <persia> nixternal: Once a month?  That'll be ~75-100 reviews each time!
[04:47] <nixternal> persia: how did you run it before?
[04:47] <nixternal> bi-weekly?
[04:47] <persia> Hobbsee: I don't imagine anything from REVU getting in until the third REVU day or so.
[04:48] <Hobbsee> persia: ah, that's true
[04:48] <persia> nixternal: 49 hours every Monday.
[04:48] <nixternal> hrmm
[04:48] <persia> biweekly might be better: I only got good attendance by reviewers every second or third week.
[04:49] <nixternal> ya, that's what I was thinking....attendance was an issue with prior REVU days
[04:49] <nixternal> did you have a REVU Day wiki page, or did you just add the date to the MOTU page?
[04:49] <persia> I'm just thinking that monthly is tight with only ~15 weeks.
[04:50] <ffm> Are the errors I get http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/thinkcspy2-0805030317/lintian something to worry about?
[04:50] <persia> I just updated the wiki pages to say it was every Monday, all timezones.  As we got closer to FeatureFreeze, I started sending weekly announcements of status of the REVU packages to the ML.
[04:50] <persia> ffm: Yes.  They ought all be fixed, or your reviewers will tell you to fix them.
[04:51] <ffm> "E: thinkcspy2_2.0.0alpha1-1_source.changes: bad-distribution-in-changes-file intrepid"
[04:51] <ffm> What should it be set to, persia ?
[04:52] <Hobbsee> ffm: okay, ignore that one.
[04:53] <persia> ffm: For an upload to Ubuntu, you want to start with -0ubuntu1
[04:53] <ffm> do I have to increment the change log each time I upload to revu?
[04:53] <persia> No
[04:53] <Hobbsee> no
[04:53] <Hobbsee> wgrant: argh. where's my root access gone on revu?
[04:53] <ffm> persia, Would that be something I want to fix now, or later when its uploaded to ubuntu?
[04:54] <Hobbsee> ffm: now.  save your reviewers typing.
[04:54] <ffm> Hobbsee, persia , what about the fullname error? Ignore?
[04:56] <persia> Why go wild!?
[04:57] <persia> ffm: You'll get complaints about that.  Ignore for now, but be prepared.
[04:57] <ffm> persia, match ubuntu-devel's topic.
[04:57] <ffm> persia, is this considered a NMU?
[04:57] <ffm> !nmu
[04:59]  * tbielawa forgot he has a Sun running Debian on the other side of his router
[04:59] <persia> ffm: It's an NMU because your version targets Debian.  After you fix a couple issues, build the source locally, and run `lintian -iIv foo_source.changes` to see the updated reports.  When it's clean, build a binary, and run lintian against the binary.  When that's clean, upload to REVU again.
[05:04] <jdong> hmm the new CFS seems to indeed help with interactivity
[05:04] <jdong> very noticeably
[05:08]  * Hobbsee starts merging
[05:14] <ffm> wgrant, you need to reapprove my updated package version?
[05:33] <Hobbsee> hmmm
[05:33] <Hobbsee> now, we don't need to keep compatibility this release, do we?
[05:34] <Hobbsee> because the LTS transition is done
[05:36] <persia> Hobbsee: We need to support upgrades from Hardy.
[05:36] <Hobbsee>     - In dput.cf, set ubuntu as default_host_main and change the name of the
[05:36] <Hobbsee>       ubuntu-revu stanza to revu for compatibility with previous Ubuntu
[05:36] <Hobbsee>       versions of dput
[05:36] <Hobbsee> persia: i would have thought the latter could be dropped by now?
[05:37] <Hobbsee> well, yeah, obviously
[05:37] <persia> Hobbsee: No, that's the sort of thing we carry forever, unless you want to retrain all the packagers to dput ubuntu-revu rather than dput revu and update all the docs everywhere.
[05:38] <Hobbsee> mmmm...seems silly, but OK
[05:38] <persia> I think there was a plan at some point to have REVU be used for multiple distributions, but it was introduced at an awkward time, and didn't really get very far, despite interst on both sides.
[05:38] <Hobbsee> right
[05:38] <Hobbsee> may as well bug debian to change hte patch, then.
[05:39] <persia> Hobbsee: Read the old bugs first: my (vague) memory is that there was a fair amount of discussion involved in the selection of "ubuntu-revu".
[05:40] <persia> Note that we're patching dput.cf anyway, so dropping one line from the diff isn't a huge savings in merge-effort.
[05:41] <persia> Also, if you don't use "revu", you might need to adjust the exception handler in dcut that effectively disables it for Ubuntu uploads.
[05:42] <Hobbsee> true
[05:44]  * Hobbsee throws it at a ppa
[05:46] <Hobbsee> hmm, not many merges for main this time.  good
[05:48]  * persia blames the incipient lenny freeze
[05:52]  * Hobbsee merges another one
[05:52] <Hobbsee> although i guess should do the universe ones first - at least, the ones i care about
[05:53] <persia> Well, maybe, but universe can depend on main, and main can't depend on universe.
[05:54] <Hobbsee> as in, so people don't steal them
[05:55] <persia> Hobbsee: Well, maybe, but are there really that many you don't trust anyone else to do?
[05:55]  * persia only has one merge which others oughtn't try, as it's a hopeless mess that requires background knowledge: freaktweak
[06:02]  * Hobbsee deals with atool.
[06:02] <Hobbsee> persia: yes, many, looking at this.
[06:04] <Hobbsee> persia: (merging into the debian-qt-kde stuff)
[06:06]  * jdong takes a peek at his universe pets
[06:06] <jdong> multiverse*
[06:08] <Hobbsee> yeesh.  ppa stuff is getting accepted a lot slower now.
[06:08] <Hobbsee> well, published
[06:09] <Hobbsee> no more auto-building-when-arriving now :(
[06:10] <Hobbsee> oh, i like that there's a # for "waiting" for each queue
[06:10] <Hobbsee> https://edge.launchpad.net/+builds is very nice
[06:20] <jdong> muahaha, x264 crack :)
[06:20] <nixternal> Hobbsee: that is nice
[06:21] <Hobbsee> nixternal: i thikn that's the neatest, cleanest, nicest version of that page that we've ever had.
[06:21] <nixternal> most definitely
[06:22] <Syntux> Good morning
[06:22] <jdong> ugh I don't feel like I'm doing very reliable multimedia merges at 1:30AM :D
[06:23] <jdong> but at least there's 5 months and 29 days to yell at me for it :)
[06:24] <nixternal> hehe
[06:24] <nixternal> I have been doing backports all day long in between power outtages
[06:24]  * Hobbsee ohpes not to break things.
[06:25] <LaserJock> nixternal!
[06:25] <LaserJock> nixternal: you're alive!
[06:25] <nixternal> barely :)
[06:26] <Hobbsee> hmm.  it appears not
[06:26]  * Hobbsee will watch to see if it falls over
[06:26] <nixternal> I missed a killer event downtown this evening, so I am sitting in my office, enjoying a nice Chicago Ale working on KDE 4.0.4 backports for Hardy
[06:26]  * jdong wonders why the heck mp32ogg landed in universe
[06:26] <LaserJock> nixternal: I managed to pass off as you ok I think ;-)
[06:26] <Hobbsee> bwah?
[06:26] <jdong> its name strongly suggests functionality dependency on mp3 decoding...
[06:27] <nixternal> jdong: because nobody is maintaining it, and manchicken reviewed the code and it is perl garbage
[06:27] <nixternal> LaserJock: oh ya, how did that go? anybody show up?
[06:27] <jdong> more importantly, why is mpg123 in universe?
[06:27] <jdong> that's a mp3 decoder.
[06:27] <Hobbsee> jdong: i wonder if i can override it though...
[06:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: it was slow but there were questions and a few people
[06:27] <jdong> what's our policy on patent-encumbered formats?
[06:28] <jdong> I thought that would be multiverse
[06:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: I managed to go a full hour
[06:28] <nixternal> wow
[06:28] <nixternal> I was only expecting 30 minutes max...every other doc talk was always slow
[06:28] <persia> jdong: Doesn't patent encumbrance only apply to encoding?  What about rhythmbox?
[06:28] <LaserJock> it was, but then I just started rambling until somebody asked a question :-0
[06:28] <LaserJock> I think they were just asking them to shut me up for a while
[06:29] <jdong> persia: I thought we didn't decode mp3 by default, u-r-e installs such codecs from multiverse
[06:30] <nixternal> hehe
[06:30]  * Hobbsee bwah more....
[06:31] <Hobbsee> what on *earth* is going on here?
[06:31] <persia> jdong: Ah, right.  gstreamer.
[06:31]  * jdong wonders also why gst-fluendo-mp3 is in universe.
[06:31] <jdong> from debian/copyright:
[06:31] <jdong> Fluendo has got the relevant licenses to cover its own activities with the
[06:31] <jdong> Source Code but it is not authorized to sublicense nor to grant the rights
[06:31] <jdong> which it has acquired over the patents.
[06:31] <Hobbsee> oh.  found it.
[06:31] <jdong> In any case, this software license does not allow you
[06:31] <jdong> to redistribute or copy complete, ready to use mp3 software decoder binaries
[06:32]  * Hobbsee files a soyuz bug
[06:32] <jdong> made from the Source Code
[06:32] <jdong> ^^ doesn't that sound ridiculously non-free?
[06:32] <jdong> namely, what are we doing in Ubuntu with the package?
[06:32] <jdong> and we sure aren't Fluendo :)
[06:32] <LaserJock> geeze, just go ahead and kill the party ;-)
[06:34] <LaserJock> jdong: maybe you should do a "codec audit"
[06:35] <jdong> heh :)
[06:35] <jdong> I'm not sure about what our policy is supposed to be
[06:35] <jdong> and I don't really have the legal know-how to make an informed decision
[06:35] <jdong> but from what RedHat/Novell are doing, it's fairly certain at least in North America that even decoding of mp3/mpeg4 is encumbered
[06:35] <persia> jdong: Just file demotion requests for all of those, and subscribe ubuntu-archive :)
[06:37] <Hobbsee> jdong: which packages?
[06:37] <Hobbsee> argh!  someone took the freeze off!
[06:37] <jdong> mainly gst-fluendo-mp3...
[06:37] <jdong> Hobbsee: I haven't looked too deep into others, but cursory examination of its debian/copyright simply screams patent encumberance
[06:38] <Hobbsee> jdong: i can't do anything about it.  LP has not impleemnted it yet, methinks
[06:38]  * Hobbsee can only do new or unapproved packages.  or something
[06:39] <jdong> yeah perhaps I should catch an awake archive admin tomorrow to chat about it
[06:39] <jdong> I'm not sure what our rules are about patent encumbered stuff but we are very inconsistent about it
[06:40]  * jdong glares at vlc in universe which has a xvid and x264 encoder enabled....
[06:42] <Hobbsee> i         thought we'd be able to do them all now.  sigh.
[08:09] <tbielawa> some packages I find have a number and then a colon before the upstream release number, what does this indicate?
[08:10] <wgrant> Hobbsee: It's on a new more restricted server
[08:10] <wgrant> Hobbsee: Want me to backport lintian?
[08:12] <Hobbsee> wgrant: that woudl be good
[08:13] <wgrant> tbielawa: That's an epoch. It's normally used when upstream has changed their versioning scheme.
[08:14] <tbielawa> evil evil upstreams
[08:14] <wgrant> Hobbsee: REVU appears to be working otherwise? No more upload going missing?
[08:14] <Hobbsee> wgrant: dunno - i don't use it
[08:17] <RAOF>  
[08:18] <wgrant> Hobbsee: We don't seem to have a new lintian yet.
[08:19] <Hobbsee> oh
[08:20] <Hobbsee> i thought we did
[08:20] <wgrant> You could give us one.
[08:20] <Hobbsee> i could
[08:21] <wgrant> I merged it last time, IIRC.
[08:21] <Hobbsee> i have already done some merges today
[08:21] <wgrant> But can't do it right now.
[08:21]  * Hobbsee uploads dput, and will see fi it works.
[08:21] <Hobbsee> it should wokr
[08:21] <Hobbsee> i just can't seem to test it
[08:22] <wgrant> Note to self: check that uscan works with FTP before running it over thousands of packages.
[08:22] <Hobbsee> haha
[08:23] <persia> thousands?  Is it that many now between Ubuntu-local and QA-maintained?
[08:24] <wgrant> persia: No, but I failed to successfully merge my package limiting changes, it seems.
[08:24] <persia> Ah.  While I suspect the result would be an interesting list, I'm not sure we're up for it.
[08:25] <wgrant> No.
[08:47] <iulian> G'morning
[08:48] <tbielawa> alo
[08:59] <eike> morning revu-admins, a package i uploaded to revu can be removed since the version currently in debian sid should work just fine in ubuntu
[08:59] <wgrant> eike: Which package?
[08:59] <eike> the package name is pondus, it is not yet in ubuntu, but should be after the next snyc with debian
[09:00] <wgrant> eike: I'll archive it. Thanks.
[09:00] <eike> wgrant: thanks!
[09:11]  * Syntux whisper -> Canonical shop is so expensive 
[09:37] <proppy> oy
[10:06] <emgent> morning
[10:10] <tbielawa_sleeps> mornin'
[11:06] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hoi
[11:06] <Kopfgeldjaeger> could someone have a look at bug #147058 and my (very little) debdiff?
[11:09] <geser> looks good
[11:10] <Kopfgeldjaeger> nice :)
[11:11] <sebner> geser: In fact I really wanted to ask you about this .po thing. but understood it now. Will reopen is as a sync
[11:12] <laga> can i get some motu-sru love for bug #221921 and for bug #220087 please?
[11:13] <sebner> persia: I thought you won't comment on my application!?
[11:20] <persia> sebner: I didn't.  I was the second councilor to vote.
[11:20] <sebner> persia: ahh, nice ^^
[11:25] <highvoltage> soren: hey there. how often are there MC meetings?
[11:25] <bobbo> could someone have a look at bug 226088 please?
[11:26] <persia> highvoltage: Weekly.
[11:27] <sebner> persia: and every member has to vote?
[11:27] <persia> sebner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council
[11:27] <Q-FUNK> hi! is there any way to make requestsync use the local sendmail?
[11:28] <persia> Q-FUNK: It doesn't do that by default?  Are you using the -lp option?
[11:28] <Q-FUNK> persia: it seems to try to connect to some ubuntu mail host by default
[11:29] <geser> export DEBSMTP=localhost
[11:29] <persia> Q-FUNK: Set DEBSMTP
[11:29] <Q-FUNK> tried that
[11:29] <Q-FUNK> fails
[11:30] <geser> does your sendmail listen on port 25?
[11:30] <persia> mailserver = os.getenv('DEBSMTP') really ought to grab it.  Did you export it?  What error message?
[11:30] <Q-FUNK> connection refused.
[11:30] <Q-FUNK> yet e.g. 'mail' command works
[11:31] <persia> Q-FUNK: mail calls /usr/lib/sendmail.  requestsync connects to port 25 over TCP.  Maybe you need a different local mailserver?
[11:32] <Q-FUNK> I use nullmailer.
[11:33] <Q-FUNK> works with everything except requestsync, so far
[11:35] <persia> Q-FUNK: Does netstat -ntl | grep 25 report a listening socket?  Looking at the (brief) docs for nullmailer, I think it wont.
[11:36] <Q-FUNK> indeed not
[11:36] <persia> Right.  You've three choices.  1) Use the LP interface.  2) Use a mail-transport-agent that actually does SMTP, rather than just providing /usr/lib/sendmail.  3) Add an option to requestsync to call /usr/lib/sendmail to send the mail.
[11:41] <Q-FUNK> fair enough.
[11:54] <Kopfgeldjaeger> geser: will you also sponsor it?
[11:57] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: It may be worth checking that you have the right sponsoring team subscribed.  rmadison can be helpful.
[11:57] <Kopfgeldjaeger> persia: well, u-u-s is subscribed as lynx is in universe
[11:58] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: See, that's not what rmadison tells me.
[11:58] <Syntux> A packaging-related myst question; for example if someone wants to install Basket and wants to avoid installing all of the recommended packages http://paste.syntux.net/bin/33 and stick to the dependencies packages http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/basket  what would s/he do
[11:59] <persia> Syntux: Depends entirely on the front-end in use.  Most ought have an option somewhere.
[11:59] <Syntux> another question is why such package is packed with all of these recommendations and why apt-get almost forcing me to install the recommended packages?
[12:00] <persia> Syntux: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps and because "The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations. "
[12:00] <Syntux> I'm trying to get the developer/packager mental state when s/he packaged it, why s/he did that
[12:02] <Kopfgeldjaeger> persia: do you have a link about rmadison?
[12:04] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: `sudo aptitude install devscripts; man rmadison`
[12:04] <Kopfgeldjaeger> persia: ah, i see. apt-cache show lynx shows it's in main. but the maintainer is Ubuntu MOTU Developers... hmpf
[12:04] <MSohail> Hi all
[12:05] <Kopfgeldjaeger> persia: already in the manpage ;)
[12:05] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: In that case, that's a mistake by someone, and yet another issue you could fix in the package :)
[12:05] <Kopfgeldjaeger> jop. sure, will do
[12:05] <MSohail> I am trying to build kopete with jingle support. I am not able to figure out how to alter debian/rules for this purpose. Any advice anyone?
[12:17] <wgrant> persia: UEHS is revived.
[12:18] <persia> Woo Hoo!
[12:19] <persia> OK.  Anyone who likes investigating new upstream packages, please take a look at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_updated.html : there are 66 packages either maintained directly by us, or by Debian QA (who very rarely grab a new upstream) that need merging.
[12:20] <persia> Anyone looking for little stuff might want to try adding watch files to anything listed at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_watch.html : almost 800 to choose from, and some with examples available.
[12:21] <LucidFox> jdong, are you around?
[12:22] <persia> Special bonus points for people who add debian/copyright to the 39 packages for which it appears to be missing.
[12:24] <geser> how got 39 packages without a debian/copyright got included in the archive?
[12:24] <LucidFox> per geser
[12:27] <persia> geser: People were having bad days?
[12:28] <persia> It's definitely RC, and deserves SRU all the way back to Dapper (be nice to push back to Warty, if we could).  Debian would likely appreciate the patch if they carry the package.
[12:34] <Kopfgeldjaeger> is there a list of packages without debian/copyright?
[12:34] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: It can be extracted from ﻿ http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_watch.html
[12:34] <jpatrick> if they do not have a copyright, they would never get pasted the NEW queue
[12:34] <persia> Some might generate a debian/copyright, but I think that's not encouraged.
[12:35] <persia> jpatrick: Well, they are in the archive, so...
[12:35] <Kopfgeldjaeger> aaah, now i see
[12:35] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: If you're up for fixing them, it'd be a great improvement to our licensing situation.  Even better if you can add an upstream pointer, and a watch file :)
[12:36] <Kopfgeldjaeger> if that's everything :)
[12:37] <Kopfgeldjaeger> geser: there's a new debdiff in bug #147058 that also corrects the maintainer field as lynx is in main, not universe
[12:37] <persia> Well, some of those packages surely have bugs as well, and if you can fix them, that's even better.  For packages on the UEHS list, it's generally best to improve the packages as much as possible whenever you touch them, as they don't tend to have dedicated maintainers.
[12:37] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: I'll subscribe the right group for that then.
[12:38] <Kopfgeldjaeger> thanks
[12:51] <Kopfgeldjaeger> OK, I'm definitely too stupid. I looked in some packages with "N/A" in the list, but those on which I looked all have a copyright file... for example "dist-elements". it has a debian/copyright file (see: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/d/dict-elements/dict-elements_20001107-a-4.diff.gz )...
[12:51] <Kopfgeldjaeger> s/dist-elements/dict-elements/
[12:51] <persia> LucidFox: To reach a human, you'll do better with #debian-games@OFTC or debian-devel-games@lists.d.o
[12:51] <LucidFox> Oh.
[12:51] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: Interesting.  For some reason UEHS couldn't find it.
[12:53] <persia> Anyway, I think you're repeating bug #468810, and http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-games-devel/2008-March/006973.html
[12:59] <gnomefreak> anyone on a 64bit system with flash can you run locate libflashsupport  (someones whos flash is working)
[13:01] <crimsun> "working" or "stable"?
[13:01] <persia> gnomefreak: By "with flash" do you mean Adobe's code?
[13:01] <gnomefreak> persia: yeah flashplugin-nonfree
[13:02] <gnomefreak> crimsun: working as it flah is viewable
[13:10] <crimsun> gnomefreak: I'm not sure what you're attempting: it's supposed to be installed into /usr/lib/libflashsupport.so
[13:10] <gnomefreak> crimsun: 64bit needs it? and its installed in /usr/lib32/libflashsupprt.so
[13:11] <gnomefreak> is it needed in 64bit?
[13:11] <crimsun> gnomefreak: for nspluginwrapper?  That should be correct.
[13:12] <gnomefreak> crimsun: ok that what i was thinking as well
[13:12] <gnomefreak> thanks for comfirming it :) i had him/her mv swf lets see if it works
[13:35] <ffm> Hey, anyone care to review my REVU package? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=thinkcspy2
[13:35] <Kopfgeldjaeger> for i in *.desktop; do desktop-file-validate $i; done | wc -l shows 354...
[13:41] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: There used to be some scripts that did even more, but in general, carrying a patch to add a semicolon isn't so interesting.  Carrying a patch to add something to the menu and the Add/Remove programs wizard that would otherwise be missing is interesting.
[13:44] <Kopfgeldjaeger> but it surely wouldn't be bad if all desktop files would be valid :)
[13:45] <ScottK> No, but it may not be worth the additional maintenance overhead of maintaining a diff from Debian to deal with small problems.
[13:46] <Kopfgeldjaeger> does the Add/Remove wizard use the *.desktop files?
[13:49] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: Yes.  If the package doesn't have a .desktop file, and there's not a special exception in the app-install-data package, it doesn't get shown.  For universe, that basically means adding a .desktop file is required to have it show as an install option.
[13:49] <Kopfgeldjaeger> and if a package is in package x-cool-app, it is automatically included in the wizard?
[13:50] <Kopfgeldjaeger> *if a desktop file is in...
[13:50] <persia> x-cool-app?
[13:50] <Kopfgeldjaeger> example application.
[13:50] <persia> Ah, well, semi-automatically.  There's a tool that gets run to import them all once in a while.
[13:50] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ok
[13:51] <Kopfgeldjaeger> is there a list for packages without desktop files?
[13:56] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: There used to be a couple scripts that generated lsits, but the site is down right now.
[13:57] <persia> Also, it takes a little review, as many packages don't actually have a GUI, and so oughtn't have a .desktop file, and other packages are not designed for regular launch, but prefer to have an argument, and so ought be MIME handlers, etc., rather than having .desktop files.  On top of that, window managers are extra special.
[14:00] <persia> Kopfgeldjaeger: I found a backup of old content on the wiki.  I know the auto-conversion script doesn't handle the new menu format, by the candidate discovery script my be useful: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/DesktopFiles?action=recall&rev=58
[14:01] <wgrant> persia: On orko, I presume? I can grab a copy.
[14:02] <persia> wgrant: Indeed, although I never did port the autoconversion script to the new menu format.  StevenK's discovery script might have had an update.  It'd be in my home directory, but I don't have anywhere else good to host it now anyway.
[14:03]  * persia remembers the old way of tracking things: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/DesktopFiles?action=recall&rev=54  Despite any issues, surely Launchpad is better than that :)
[14:06] <rexbron> How often does the motu-sru team look at bugs?
[14:06] <persia> rexbron: anecdotally, almost daily, but there's a backlog, and tools to manage the backlog are in the very early stages of development.
[14:07] <rexbron> persia: cool, just curiouse as I just posted a patch and subscribed the motu-sru team
[14:30] <wgrant> REVU should have a sane lintian now!
[14:31] <persia> \o/
[14:37] <ffm> wgrant, define sane
[14:37] <MSohail> can anyone advice how i can alter debian/rules of kopete to include jingle support? i am working on hardy
[14:38] <wgrant> ffm: It recognises intrepid.
[14:39] <ffm> wgrant, wooh.
[14:39] <ffm> wgrant, do I need to reupload?
[14:39] <wgrant> ffm: No point - people know to ignore that message.
[14:41] <ffm> wgrant, woo! I'm lintian clean then.
[14:41] <persia> Well, it shouldn't be ignored: it often exists due to some other issue in the package, but in this case it's safe.
[14:41] <ffm> wgrant, bug http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/thinkcspy2-0805030620/thinkcspy2_2.0.0alpha1-0ubuntu1_source.changes gives me an error.
[14:41] <persia> ffm: Have you runb against your binaries as well?
[14:41] <ffm> persia, not yet.
[14:41]  * persia expects lots more changes
[14:42] <wgrant> ffm: That's normal. .changes files are very dangerous.
[14:42] <ffm> wgrant, what makes them so?
[14:43] <wgrant> ffm: They have a signature.
[14:43] <wgrant> Which can be used to do bad, bad things like upload to other places.
[14:43] <ffm> wgrant, ah.
[14:43] <ffm> persia, any idea how to fix http://paste.ubuntu.com/9747/ ? I'm not installing any actual exec binaries.
[14:45] <persia> ffm: Either don't use dh_make, or delete everything you don't need.  hand edit your copyright file to be nice.  Use dh_compress.  lintian -iIv would have told you most of that.
[14:45] <wgrant> I think the first part is the most important.
[14:47]  * persia again considers trying to update dh_make, but not with much spirit
[14:53] <ffm> wgrant, Use what instead?
[14:56] <ffm> persia, where should I put the "dh_compress changelog.debian" stanza? in build:, or install:
[14:58] <persia> ffm: You'll do better asking questions generally, as I'm likely to run out of answers at some point.  http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules is the likely source of your information.  You want to compress just before you create the .deb file.
[14:59] <persia> (and be sure to have all those targets: dh_make doesn't include some by default)
[15:40] <highvoltage> I just want to make sure I understand https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers right
[15:41] <highvoltage> universe-contributors are half-way-motu's, right?
[15:43] <stdin> universe-contributes is anyone who has contributed anything to universe
[15:44] <stdin> (and it was renamed to revu-uploaders a little while ago)
[15:45] <highvoltage> stdin: thanks, that kind of answered my next question too :)
[15:45] <stdin> I actually only realised it the other day ;)
[15:45] <sebner> stdin: anything = substantial ;)
[15:46] <stdin> well, now it just meant "anyone who can upload to revu"
[15:47] <sebner> stdin: no there is a new universe contributors group ;)
[15:47] <sebner> stdin: https://edge.launchpad.net/~universe-contributors
[15:47] <stdin> sebner: yeah, but I meant the old one
[15:48] <sebner> stdin: ok though that was not his question :)
[15:48] <stdin> it a weekend, I'm aloud to be a bit off :p
[15:48] <sebner> ^^
[15:48] <highvoltage> heh
[16:00] <bobbo> Debdiff up for Bug #226120 if anyone has some time to sponsor it
[16:26] <sucitrams> hi
[16:31] <highvoltage> hey sucitrams
[16:32] <Arby> afternoon all
[16:33] <Arby> I gather this is the place to be if I want to learn packaging :)
[16:34] <jpatrick> Arby: sure is
[16:35] <Arby> If I want to work on a merge I gather I'm supposed to contact the previous uploader first, is that correct?
[16:35] <Arby> prevent duplication etc
[16:35] <sucitrams> I'm new to packaging and have some questions: I updated the hibernate package from 1.97-1 to 1.99, and all worked fine.
[16:35] <sucitrams> But now I saw here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hibernate/1.98.1-1 that 1.98.1-1 is the newest Ubuntu version. It was released just 13 hours ago, and so it isn't in the repos. But shouldn't I update from 1.98.1-1 to 1.99? Sorry for my bad englisch :)
[16:37] <Arby> in which case, Tonio_ any objections to me attempting to merge konversation?
[16:39] <jpatrick> Arby: I suggest doing the merges, upload them somewhere and point them to JR
[16:39] <Arby> jpatrick: ok, by JR I assume you mean Jriddell?
[16:39] <jpatrick> Arby: yeppers
[16:40] <Arby> jpatrick: so first up I need to file a merge bug?
[16:40] <Arby> and how do find which component of debian the package comes from
[16:41] <jpatrick> Arby: http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/konversation.html
[16:41] <Arby> thanks
[16:42] <jpatrick> Arby: grab the debian source, merge Ubuntu changes as necessary and upload the new source package somewher and I'm sure JR (or some other core-dev) will upload
[16:42] <Arby> jpatrick: I'm trying to but it's going to be a lot of small steps
[16:43] <Arby> is the debian source what I get by running grab-merge.sh
[16:43] <Arby> I have a lot of wiki pages open and I'm just findin my way around
[16:44] <Arby> the new version is listed in debian unstable and testing, which should I refer to in the merge bug
[16:45] <Arby> ah, nvm.
[16:45] <jpatrick> Arby: the current in Ubunut is 1.0.1-4ubuntu6
[16:45] <Arby> found it in the changelog
[16:45] <Arby> jpatrick: yes, and there is a 1.0.1-6 available
[16:45] <jpatrick> Arby: you'll have to check what Debian included in -5, and -6, and bring those changes to Ubuntu if necessary
[16:45] <Arby> in progress
[16:46] <Arby> there's at least one patch that has been applied upstream
[16:46] <jpatrick> Arby: http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/konversation/news/20080121T134704Z.html
[16:47] <jpatrick> Arby: appears the Debian folk included our patches in -5, now you'll just have to check out -6
[16:48] <Arby> jpatrick: that was my understanding, I think I'm heading in the right direction
[16:48] <Arby> just need some time to work all this out
[16:48] <jpatrick> any problems/questions, just ask
[16:59] <Arby> in 'Please merge <sourcepackagename><debian-version> (repository) from Debian <repository> (<component>)' what should repository and component be for Debian?
[16:59] <Arby> Unstable and ? what
[17:00] <sebner> Arby: Unstable is enough ;)
[17:00] <Arby> ok
[17:00] <sucitrams> What I mean is, when someone fixed a bug in let's say version 1.0 in xy and I grab version 1.1 from the authors website of the program, the bug isn't fixed if the ubuntu-developer didn't inform the program author, right? So if I just get version 1.1 and package it, the bug still exists. How can i avoid this?
[17:02]  * persia likes to use "Debian unstable (main)" or "Debian unstable (contrib)", as needed.
[17:04] <sebner> persia: Then I might be too sloppy
[17:04] <persia> sucitrams: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/PackageUpdate
[17:04]  * Arby bookmarks
[17:07] <Arby> next question, I have patch.diff.DEBIAN and patch.diff.UBUNTU that are identical except for an extra indent on one line. Do I just delete the .UBUNTU file from debian/patches?
[17:07] <sucitrams> persia: thx, I'll read this
[17:38] <persia> ScottK: Recent traffic has caused me to agree with you completely about appropriate content for ubuntu-motu@ and the need for ubuntu-motu-mentors@
[17:39] <Arby> anybody able to help with my patch conflict above?
[17:39] <Arby> I think this is the last change I need to make
[17:40] <sebner> Arby: I suppose you can delete the ubuntu one
[17:40] <Arby> thanks, that's what I needed to know
[17:40] <persia> Arby: Depends on the language.  Some languages are whitespace sensitive, and so the extra indent might fix a bug.
[17:41] <sebner> Arby: persia is right, for example python is whitespace sensitive, for C it doesn't matter
[17:41] <Arby> as best I can tell this is C
[17:42] <sebner> Arby: then it doesn't matter
[17:42] <Arby> the line in question is
[17:42] <Arby> if ! test -f $kdepotpath; then
[17:42] <Arby> +# kdepotpath=`kde-config --expandvars --prefix`/include/kde.pot
[17:42] <sebner> looks like bash!?
[17:43] <persia> That would be shell, rather than C, but it could be make pretending to be shell.
[17:43] <persia> which file is being patched in the patch?
[17:44] <Arby> sorry, I'm new at this I'm not actually sure, hold on I'll pastebin it it's quite small
[17:45] <persia> Arby: It's never a problem not to know, it's only a problem not to ask when you don't know :)
[17:45] <Arby> !pastebin
[17:47] <Arby> debian version http://paste.ubuntu.com/9776/    ubuntu version http://paste.ubuntu.com/9777/
[17:47] <Arby> line 22 is the difference
[17:48] <persia> Arby: In the patch file, the lines at the top, starting --- and +++ indicate what is being patched, and show the relative date.
[17:48] <persia> In this case, you're patching cvs,sh, which ought be a shell script
[17:49] <persia> Take a look at the first line of kde/admin/cvs.sh to see what flavour of shell (sh, csh, bash, zsh, etc.)
[17:49] <Arby> looking for it
[17:51] <persia> From a quick glance, I suspect it doesn't matter.  I think the Ubuntu version is more readable, but it's not worth maintaining as a diff unless it breaks something.
[17:53] <jdong> LucidFox: sup?
[17:54] <LucidFox> I saw ffmpeg-free uploaded to NEW - am I to assume that Ubuntu is finally going to provide alternative ffmpegs?
[17:54] <Arby> persia: thanks I'll remove the ubuntu one then
[17:55] <Arby> then once I've done the changes I just run debuild -S or is there more to it?
[17:55] <jdong> LucidFox: unfortuantely no
[17:56] <jdong> LucidFox: ffmpeg-free is the replacement pkg for ffmpeg, debian renamed.
[17:56] <LucidFox> so ffmpeg is going to be removed?
[17:56] <jdong> LucidFox: likewise; ffmpeg-free generates the same binary package names as ffmpeg does
[17:56] <LucidFox> ah
[17:57] <jdong> LucidFox: I was combing through debian-multimedia last night; uploaded a new x264; wondering if we want the new xvidcore?
[17:57] <jdong> ours seems very out of date
[17:58] <LucidFox> oh, I was just about to ask if you were going to update x264 - didn't see it
[17:59] <LucidFox> as for xvidcore, sure
[18:03] <Arby> can anyone tell me what these debuild errors mean http://paste.ubuntu.com/9779/
[18:03] <Arby> do I need something extra installed
[18:03] <Arby> or set up
[18:04] <sebner> Arby: install cdbs
[18:04] <Arby> thanks
[18:07] <Tonio_> Arby: please go for konversation, no problem
[18:07] <Arby> I seem to also be missing patchsys-quilt.mk
[18:07] <Tonio_> Arby: and ping me for upload the package once possible
[18:07] <sebner> Arby: install quilt
[18:07] <Arby> Tonio_: well on the way (hopefully)
[18:07] <sebner> Arby: and patch
[18:07] <Arby> sebner: thanks
[18:09] <Arby> hmm, that seems all good
[18:09] <sebner> Arby: fine :)
[18:09] <Arby> I'll make debdiffs and upload after dinner
[18:32] <highvoltage> does the latest debootstrap know about intrepid already?
[18:33] <sebner> highvoltage: yes
[18:33] <devfil> highvoltage: no
[18:33] <sebner> ehm. ^^
[18:33] <devfil> sebner: yes? I tried yesterday and it don't know about it
[18:33] <sebner> devfil: I set up my intrepid pbuilder 2 days ago
[18:34] <highvoltage> sebner: I suppose you installed debootstrap from intrepid then?
[18:34] <highvoltage> sebner: because it isn't in hardy-backports yet
[18:34] <sebner> highvoltage: yes but it got backported
[18:34] <sebner> highvoltage: 6 hours ago ^^
[18:34] <sebner> highvoltage: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debootstrap
[18:35] <sebner> highvoltage: but yes I'm on intrepid
[18:35] <devfil> sebner: thanks for this info, I don't know why yesterday it didn't set up pbuilder for intrepid
[18:35] <pikini_> hi , I am a passionate programmer liking to contribute to ubuntu
[18:35] <highvoltage> sebner: ah, my local mirror updates every 6 hours, so I'll probably get it soon. thanks
[18:36] <pikini_> can anyone help me in explaining about Motu
[18:36] <sebner> np
[18:36] <sebner> pikini_: well MOTU isn't all about programming
[18:36] <pikini_> okay
[18:36] <sebner> pikini_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/
[18:36] <pikini_> I want to make some contribution to ubuntu , not specific to coding
[18:38] <devfil> pikini_: you can translate, create package, reply to answers by users etc.
[18:38] <sebner> pikini_: see link
[18:39] <bbyever> hi
[18:39] <bbyever> hi can i apply a .patch to a source, or turn it into a .dpatch ?
[18:42] <chillywilly> I thought there was a -17 kernel out that fixed the scheduler issues
[18:43] <pikini_> wat is a patch..?
[18:44] <jdong> chillywilly: yes, it's in -proposed
[18:44] <jdong> chillywilly: so far I'm using it for a day and it does seem to help
[18:44] <devfil> pikini_: a patch is a file that stores in it all the changes made on a file or files
[18:45] <chillywilly> ok
[18:45] <chillywilly> guess I'll finally bite the bullet and upgrae
[18:45] <chillywilly> upgrade too
[18:45] <chillywilly> jdong: what about the pulseaudio issues?
[18:46] <jdong> chillywilly: pulse can still be quirky to some people, apparently there's some efforts to work on fixing that
[18:46] <chillywilly> sudo apt-get remove pulseaudio? ;)
[18:47] <jdong> chillywilly: not that simple
[18:47] <jdong> chillywilly: pulseaudio replaced alsa-utils' sound card initialization
[18:47] <jdong> chillywilly: talk to crimsun about how to properly disable pulse. One person who tried that got no sound at all :D
[18:47] <chillywilly> that still makes me leery of upgrading
[18:47] <chillywilly> ok
[18:48] <Arby> what does this mean I actually have to do http://paste.ubuntu.com/9789/ ?
[18:48] <jdong> chillywilly: if you're leery, do wait for 8.04.1 ;-)
[18:49] <Arby> convert src.tar.gz --> orig.tar.gz then run debuild?
[18:49] <Arby> sorry paste is from a report file after running grab-merge.sh
[18:52] <superm1> jdong, i've been away for a bit w/o logging, did you answer me about rippedwire/handbrake-gtk in terms of packaging for inclusion in interprid?
[18:52] <superm1> *intrepid
[18:53] <jdong> superm1: no, but that would be nice to have packaged :)
[18:53] <superm1> jdong, well the gui part is easy enough to package.
[18:53] <superm1> the problem is that handbrakecli
[18:53] <jdong> one sec lemme go grab lunch :)
[18:53] <superm1> that it is dependent on
[18:53] <jdong> superm1: we can then talk about the cli's build system :D
[18:53] <superm1> alrighty :)
[18:57] <bbyever> could someone help me patch apt for this bug #202219 ? i cant} understand how the -p option works
[19:00] <chillywilly> is this accurate in removeing pulseaudio --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PulseAudio ?
[19:03] <Arby> Tonio_: debdiff attached to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/konversation/+bug/226180 for checking
[19:04] <Arby> Tonio_: this is my first ever package so expect a few screw ups
[19:04] <Arby> also, what happens next?
[19:05] <Arby> I'm following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging and it kind of stops after this point
[19:06] <sebner> Arby: unassign and set it to "confirmed", subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors
[19:08] <LaserJock> anybody know if people.ubuntuwire.com is up?
[19:08] <LaserJock> or near up
[19:08] <Arby> sebner: thanks, done
[19:08] <Arby> and now I wait
[19:09] <sebner> LaserJock: Currently unavailable
[19:09] <sebner> Arby: good :)
[19:11] <LaserJock> sebner: I realize that :-)
[19:14] <sebner> LaserJock: ok :)
[19:17] <Tonio_> Arby: no pb, everyone has a first package in his history ;)
[19:30] <Arby> If I try to set up pbuilder with 'pbuilder create --distribution intrepid' I get E: No such script: /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/intrepid
[19:30] <Arby> what am I doing wrong?
[19:30] <sebner> Arby: got the newest debootstrap version?
[19:30] <Arby> nope, where do I find that?
[19:31] <sucitrams> apt-get install debootstrap i think
[19:32] <Arby> that doesn't do anything
[19:32] <Arby> ah https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot?highlight=%28debootstrap%29 looks promising
[19:33] <sebner> Haven't used that ^^
[19:33] <sebner> Arby: you should wait until your mirror has the actual version
[19:33] <sebner> Arby: open hardy-backports
[19:34] <Arby> ok
[19:35] <RoAkSoAx> Arby, enable the backports on the sources and install it
[19:38] <Arby> mirror doesn't seem to have caught up yet
[19:39] <gnomefreak> someone on intrepid can you please run lsb_release
[19:40] <sebner> gnomefreak: No LSB modules are available.
[19:40] <gnomefreak> sebner: yeah thats what i get too i was just wondering if it was me
[19:40] <gnomefreak> thanks
[19:45] <gnomefreak> its not borked it should do that append a -a or a -c to lsb_release
[19:59] <bddebian> Heya gang
[20:01] <sebner> heya bddebian
[20:01] <bddebian> Hello sebner
[20:08] <bbyever> hi
[20:09] <bbyever> for patching apt for this bug #202219 what would be best, a patchsystem or patching the source directly?
[20:24] <pikini_> how to update a new package that has been released in the main ubuntu repository
[20:26] <laga> pikini_: fllow the SRU process
[20:26] <laga> !sru
[20:27] <pikini_> laga:wat is SRU...?
[20:28] <laga> pikini_: read the link: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[21:11] <bbyever> ﻿for patching apt for this bug #202219 what would be best, a patchsystem or patching the source directly?
[21:54] <norsetto> sebner: flightgear seems a fun merge to do
[21:55] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, would you help me with a merge ?? :)?
[21:55] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: sure, which one?
[21:55] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, im trying to merge blam
[21:55]  * norsetto checks
[21:56] <RoAkSoAx> the report shows that changes are needed in debian/control
[21:56] <RoAkSoAx> here: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9821/
[21:59] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: ok, before that, did you manually check the previous changes, and what is new in the current debian package?
[21:59] <bbyever> hi... i was wondering if anyone could help me with this... how should i patch apt for this bug #202219, using a patchsystem or directly patching the source?
[22:00] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, well in the changelog says that it is the new upstream version so should it be  a sync instead of a merge?
[22:01] <RoAkSoAx> (upstream release among other changes of course...)
[22:01] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: not necessarily, we might still have ubuntu changes that needs to be applied
[22:02] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, so changes should be done in the build-depends on debian control?
[22:02] <RoAkSoAx> debian/control*
[22:03] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: what are the ubuntu changes in debian/control and why were they applied?
[22:04] <RoAkSoAx> the last ubuntu changes are this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9823/
[22:04] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: I really mean the changes, not the records in debian/changelog
[22:05] <RoAkSoAx> i don't know, how can i see that ?
[22:06] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: you must know, otherwise you can't possibly do the merge. You need to open the file with the 1.8.4-3ubuntu2 patch
[22:07] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: this file will tell you which are the ubuntu changes applied to the base debian package
[22:10] <RoAkSoAx> this? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9826/
[22:10] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: again, thats just the changelog bit, I really want to know what changed in control, not the changelog
[22:12] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9827/  ???
[22:13] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: yes, now, what are the changes we made in Ubuntu re. the build-depends?
[22:14] <RoAkSoAx> change name of some packages and added others int eh build-depends?
[22:15] <RoAkSoAx> for ex libxul-dev (>= 1.8), to xulrunner-1.9-dev ??
[22:15] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: can you list to me which packages we added and which we changed, and more importantly, why?
[22:17] <RoAkSoAx> Debian : libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11) Ubuntu: libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11-3ubuntu4~asac6)
[22:17] <RoAkSoAx> Debian: libxul-dev (>= 1.8) Ubuntu: xulrunner-1.9-dev
[22:17] <RoAkSoAx> why, because packages in ubuntu does not always have the same names in debian?
[22:18] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: I think there is still an additional one
[22:19] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: well, this is possible, you can check it using apt-cache or p.u.c or lp
[22:20] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: no, I'm wrong, is just those you listed
[22:21] <RoAkSoAx> ok, so i've identified the changes... what next... verify the packages in the repositories and editing debian/control and then build source and generate the debdiffs?
[22:23] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: thats just one side of the changes, what about debian?
[22:23] <RoAkSoAx> notify debian of the changes?
[22:24] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: I mean, what are the changes that debian made to control w.r.t. the base version?
[22:27] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, debian split build-depends in several lines?
[22:27] <RoAkSoAx> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9832/
[22:28] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: yes, they also added some build-depnds, make sure these are ok for ubuntu (they should eventually cause an ftbfs if not)
[22:28] <RoAkSoAx> so i have to check for the packages added by debian in the ubuntu repos?
[22:28] <RoAkSoAx> and add them to the debian/control
[22:29] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: yes, once you do that, you are done, just manually solve the conflict in control as we just did
[22:29] <bobbo> what is the policy about adding your own changes (Bumping Standards version) to a package you are merging?
[22:29] <norsetto> bobbo: what do you mean your own changes? changes extra to the previous ubuntu changes?
[22:30] <bobbo> norsetto: I mean adding changes to an automated DaD merge
[22:30] <pochu> bobbo: I don't think there's a policy for that, but I'd say the general thinking is 'keep the delta as lower as possible'
[22:30] <bobbo> pochu: ok, thanks :)
[22:30] <pochu> so don't bump Standards-Version just for the sake of bumping it :)
[22:31] <norsetto> bobbo: if the change is important (fix a bug or a serious packaging error) then yes, if it is cosmetic (like bump standards version) don't
[22:31] <bobbo> pochu: norsetto: thanks :)
[22:31] <pochu> yw
[22:33] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: btw, I advice you to talk with asac about this merge, he should provide you with some insight I don't possibly have on the reasons for some of the changes he made and if they still apply
[22:35] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: don't just assume that dad did all the work, because in most cases it doesn't, it just blindly applies all the previous ubuntu changes without criteria
[22:40] <sucitrams_> gn8
[22:45] <Arby> I'm trying to merge koffice and I'm struggling to understand a conflict in debian/control.
[22:45] <Arby> the diff is here http://paste.ubuntu.com/9839/
[22:45] <Arby> anyone able to help
[22:46] <Arby> we seem to depend on (= ${Source-Version}) and upstream depend on (= ${binary:Version})
[22:47] <Arby> I'm not qualified to say which is correct
[22:48] <Arby> I also need to figure out if the Replaces/Conflicts on krita is still necessary
[22:51] <norsetto> arby: ${Source-Version} is deprecated, debian seems to be right
[22:52] <Arby> norsetto: OK so I should remove all the ubuntu lines? any idea on the krita entry?
[22:53] <norsetto> arby: my opinion count less than nothing, the package is in main, not universe
[22:53] <Arby> norsetto: you still know more than I do :) which makes your opinion count to me
[22:53] <Arby> Riddell: still around?
[22:54] <norsetto> arby: well, your sponsor might beg to differ ;-)
[22:54] <Arby> true :)
[22:55] <Arby> if he's still here we'll find out
[22:55] <pochu> Arby: I think it isn't probably needed anymore as that package isn't in Hardy, but I may be wrong
[22:56] <Arby> pochu: which 'it', the krita entry?
[22:56] <pochu> the kitra package, yes
[22:56] <pochu> so you don't need the conflicts anymore
[22:56] <pochu> as Hardy->Intrepid and Hardy->LTS will be ok
[22:56] <pochu> it was probably needed in Hardy for the Dapper->Hardy upgrades
[22:57] <pochu> but my KDE knowledge is almost zero so don't listen too much to me :-)
[22:57] <norsetto> pochu: rmadison seems to be of a different opinion
[22:57] <pochu> really?
[22:57] <norsetto>      krita | 1:1.6.3-4ubuntu7 |         hardy | amd64, i386
[22:57] <norsetto> krita | 1:1.6.3-4ubuntu7 |      intrepid | amd64, i386
[22:58] <pochu> hmm...
[22:58] <pochu> emilio@saturno:~$ apt-cache madison kitra
[22:58] <pochu> emilio@saturno:~$ rmadison kitra
[22:58] <pochu> emilio@saturno:~$
[22:58] <pochu> that's strange
[22:58] <Arby> erm kitra?
[22:58] <norsetto> pochu: are you in gutsy?
[22:58] <pochu> nope, Hardy
[22:59] <pochu> ah
[22:59] <pochu> krita/kitra
[22:59] <pochu> :)
[22:59] <Arby> what is madison?
[22:59] <norsetto> pochu: :-)
[22:59] <pochu> still, it's probably not needed as it's << 1:1.4.2-7
[23:00] <norsetto> arby: rmadison -- Remotely query the Debian archive database about packages
[23:00] <Arby> norsetto: thanks, useful to know
[23:01] <norsetto> arby: but does the same for Ubuntu, actually its patched to default to ubuntu in hardy
[23:02] <RoAkSoAx> ok thanks very much norsetto  :)
[23:02] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: de nada
[23:03] <Arby> I'll leave the krita entry for now.
[23:03] <Arby> if it's wrong I'm sure I'll get told quick enough :)
[23:04] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, oh, one last question... i should look for the packages in the Intrepid repos right?
[23:04] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: for what?
[23:05] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, when looking for the packages needed for the debian/control
[23:05] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: yes
[23:06] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, and in the changelog... i should put all the new packages added... or name changed and like that?
[23:06] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: whatever changes you have carried over from the previous ubuntu package + any other you did yourself
[23:07] <bobbo> can someone have a look at bug #226287 to make sure i did my first merge right?
[23:07] <RoAkSoAx> ok cool, gracias =)
[23:07] <sebner> bobbo: why don't you just subscribe u-u-s and wait?
[23:07] <norsetto> bobbo: just subscribe u-u-s, nobody will jump to your throat :-)
[23:07] <sebner> norsetto: hihi
[23:08] <norsetto> bobbo: well, sebner might (never steal a merge from him....)
[23:08] <norsetto> sebner: hi, oh master of the merges
[23:09] <sebner> norsetto: hehe, Yes never steal one of my merges but I only start jumping to once throat if my merges are ignored for 2 weeks -.-
[23:09] <sebner> norsetto: huhu :)
[23:09] <sebner> No, at least I start annoying my sponsors ^^
[23:11] <norsetto> bobbo: it is actually better to list all the remaining changes
[23:11] <sebner> norsetto: you didn't comment at my application and now it doesn't matter any longer but I'm awaiting for comment for my MOTU application ;)
[23:11] <norsetto> sebner: what do you mean?
[23:11]  * bobbo goes away to rewrite the changelog
[23:11] <sebner> norsetto: my universe-contributors application. you were to lazy
[23:12] <norsetto> sebner: ahh, I see, well, talk with whoever moderate that list, he obviously didn't like my email
[23:12] <sebner> norsetto: nice joke ^^. no as I said it's not needed any longer so don't worry
[23:13] <norsetto> sebner: I wish they would take this moderation more seriously, some email to ubuntu-devel really do not pertian there
[23:13] <sebner> heya jono our great community manager
[23:14] <jono> hi sebner, thats very kind of you :)
[23:14] <jono> how are you?
[23:14] <sebner> jono: fine. just making fun with norsetto :P  and you?
[23:14] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, if for example, a package in the debian Build-depends has gtk-sharp2 (>= 2.8.0) and the version of the package in the ubuntu repos is 2.12.0, should i change it to... or leave it like the debian Build-Depends
[23:15] <sebner> norsetto: for my MOTU application I'll post the irclog so you can't blame the moderation any longer :P
[23:15] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: in principle leave it as is, otherwise it may hurt backports for no reasons
[23:16] <norsetto> sebner: to tell you the truth this really irks me, I think I will unsubscribe to all ubuntu ml
[23:16] <Riddell> hi Arby
[23:16] <sebner> RoAkSoAx: don't introduce anything if it's not really necessary
[23:16] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, and for example, this one in debian is: libmono-dev (>= 1.1.17) and in ubuntu 1.2.6+dfsg-6ubuntu3 ??
[23:16] <sebner> norsetto: don't like them?
[23:17] <norsetto> sebner: quite useless frankly
[23:17] <Arby> Riddell: trying to fix a conflict in debian control for koffice
[23:17] <Arby> Riddell: could you look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/9839/
[23:17] <Arby> and advise what is the correct resolution
[23:17] <sebner> norsetto: I know you will make an exception for me :P
[23:18] <Riddell> Arby: use the debian version
[23:18] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: what do you mean, that we changed to that version or that that version is the ubuntu current one?
[23:18] <Riddell> Arby: maybe look in the changelog and see if there's a reason for that conflict, but I'm pretty sure it'll be obsolete
[23:19] <Arby> Riddell: I couldn't find a reason
[23:19] <Riddell> Arby: actually keep that conflict in, it looks recent
[23:19] <Arby> let me double check
[23:19] <Riddell> take the debian version otherwise
[23:19] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, in the debian Build-depends shows libmono-dev (>= 1.1.17), but when i browse for that package in the Intrepid repos it showed that the version is: 1.2.6+dfsg-6ubuntu3. So should i change or leave it like the debian build-dep
[23:19] <Arby> Riddell: what about the krita in replaces
[23:20] <Arby> should that stay too?
[23:20] <norsetto> [00:15] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: in principle leave it as is, otherwise it may hurt backports for no reasons
[23:20] <Riddell> Arby: yes
[23:20] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, oh ok, because in the patch of the older Ubuntu version, the differences where Debian : libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11) Ubuntu: libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11-3ubuntu4~asac6) so i thought i had to change it
[23:21] <Arby> Riddell: thanks, I'll make a debdiff shortly and attach it to the bug report. is it OK to ping you to check it?
[23:21] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: it is possible that for that asac has a rationale
[23:22] <sebner> gn8 folks :D
[23:22] <sebner> jono: may jokosher rocking :D
[23:22] <crimsun> RoAkSoAx: the rationale is listed in the changelog for gecko-sharp2 0.11-3ubuntu4.
[23:22] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: most probably it is needed to be sure that a certain feature is available, or to avoid a ftbfs, but I don't know for sure
[23:23] <Arby> Riddell: does  http://paste.ubuntu.com/9853/ look correct to you?
[23:23] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, ok, and i should keep the changes made in the last ubuntu version regarding to: Debian : libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11) Ubuntu: libgecko2.0-cil (>= 0.11-3ubuntu4~asac6) and Debian: libxul-dev (>= 1.8) Ubuntu: xulrunner-1.9-dev
[23:23] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: I think so
[23:24] <bobbo> norsetto: Does http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9854/ look better?
[23:25] <norsetto> bobbo: a bit more verbosity could make it even better :-)
[23:25] <bobbo> norsetto: cool thanks
[23:25] <Arby> I assume a 15M debdiff would be considered 'too big'
[23:25] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, and here, i noticed this "mono-mcs (>= 1.1.17) | c-sharp-compiler" in the last ubuntu version, but in the intrepid repos there is no c-sharp-compiler pacakge... so should i leave it or remove it?
[23:25] <Arby> now why would it be that big,
[23:25]  * Arby ponders
[23:27] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: leave it, it will never get to that since mono-mcs is in the repo
[23:27] <Riddell> Arby: that paste doesn't look incorrecet
[23:28] <Arby> Riddell: thanks debdiff on it's way
[23:28] <Riddell> Arby: I expect most of that debdiff will be changes to Makefile.ins etc?
[23:28] <norsetto> Riddell: 15 M of makefiles? Thats kubuntu for you :-)
[23:29] <Arby> Riddell: over to you there I'm afraid the contents of debdiff are gibberish to me
[23:29] <norsetto> Riddel: btw, do you know of any way to avoid that kde autofiles drag in all the cruft they do?
[23:30] <Riddell> norsetto: that'll be phased out now with kde 4
[23:30] <norsetto> Riddell: ok, but for kde 3 there is no hope?
[23:30] <Zelut> could someone help me figure out what depend I'm missing, resulting in this error:
[23:30] <Zelut> Checking for X libraries:  Xlibs not found at -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib64 -L/usr/local/lib -lXext -lX11 -I/usr/local/include or Xlibs headers not found
[23:30] <Riddell> norsetto: not really
[23:30] <norsetto> Riddell: zut, ok, thanks
[23:31] <crimsun> Zelut: presuming it uses autotools, pastebin config*.log
[23:31] <crimsun> Zelut: it's likely missing something besides libx11-dev
[23:31] <Arby> Riddell: debdiff added https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/koffice/+bug/226281
[23:31] <Arby> to be torn apart at your leisure
[23:32] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, ok, so i check the debian/control generated by the script, and shows this packages: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9857/ . But in the debian version they include these other packages(besides the ones of the ones in the pastebin): "intltool, libmono-cairo2.0-cil, libgnomeui-dev (>= 2.2) " . These other packages should be included in debian/control right?
[23:32] <Zelut> crimsun: yeah, I have libx11-dev there and I can't seem to track down the other one(s)
[23:32] <Arby> and with that I'm off to sleep
[23:33] <Riddell> thanks Arby
[23:33] <Zelut> crimsun: the configure.log is not found (trying this from within pbuilder)
[23:33] <Arby> Riddell: all feedback welcome
[23:35] <crimsun> Zelut: please use the shell hook.
[23:36] <crimsun> Zelut: i.e., /usr/share/doc/pbuilder/examples/C10shell
[23:38] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: if it is so then you really have to take the debian one, and make yourself by hand the two necessary changes
[23:39] <crimsun> hmm, in the name of streamlining bug triaging, we should tighten the sysv-rc versioned dependency [for multiuser semantics, see the TearDown spec]
[23:40] <crimsun> it is insufficient to simply include sysv-rc (>= 2.86.ds1-14.1ubuntu2)
[23:41] <crimsun> for whatever reason, some people grab some Debian version of sysv-rc, e.g., 2.86.ds1-54, which will still fail using multiuser
[23:42] <norsetto> Zelut: another possibility is to look what header or pkg-config files configure is searching for, and making sure that the relevant binary package (apt-file is handy for this) is listed as a Build-Depends
[23:44] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, ok so, my debian/control looks like this now... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9860/
[23:47] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: looks good to me
[23:51] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, what about my changelog: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9863/
[23:52] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: you should not list the debian changes, only the ubuntu specific changes
[23:54] <RoAkSoAx> norsetto, oh i thought i should put the changes made from the last Ubuntu version... so what should i put there?
[23:58] <norsetto> RoAkSoAx: as i said, all the ubuntu changes, so, all the previous ubuntu changes being carried over + any new one (if needed)