[00:00] PriceChild: for the most part [00:37] hi, i help with the #ubuntuforums-beginners team and during our meeting the issue of security was brought up, and also the lack of knowledgge of security in #ubuntu -- i was wondering if i could get a !security factoid with this link in it plz -- http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=510812 -- what do you think? [00:38] !security [00:38] If you feel the need to adopt security measures for your system, check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Security - See also !root, !firewall and !server [00:38] forum threads in bot links should be avoided IMHO, if at all possible [00:38] relevant information should rather be added to the wiki [00:39] that's the actual documentation, after all [00:39] LjL, -- ok, il get a link added to the wiki from those links ty [00:42] goodnight everyone, reach me by email if you need me, i'm still unlikely to be on irc often right now [00:42] night LjL [00:42] *sigh* [00:42] nightey luv [01:00] In ubottu, ikonia said: !no mirror-info is "details on your Ubuntu repository mirrors can be found in /etc/apt/sources.list. Remember you must edit these with root privileges and run "sudo apt-get update" after wards to pickup the changes [01:03] There wasn't any discussion on irseek on the Ml was there, just the decision on it? [01:04] I'm going through the irclogs. for the discussions we had on it [01:10] PriceChild: i thought i read something about it when i got home after leave [01:10] or i was away when i saw it [01:11] the main discussion is at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/12/20/%23ubuntu-ops.html [01:12] I think there was some before that, and a lot in PM. [01:12] * gnomefreak not even sure who, why, what, and how IRSeek came about and what interest does a commercial company have in our logs? [01:14] seeing that any company anywhere on the planet can recursively wget the logs from our own logging bots, what's the problem with IRSeek, anyway? [01:14] my main concern on it is what interest is it for company i dont really see any need to have a company log our channels [01:15] different to grep search logs than log it for whatever reason [01:15] damn that was fast [01:16] I'm writing a page for the wiki, you can add viewpoints i miss in a minute [01:16] afaik irseek are just like a google for IRC [01:17] * mneptok tootles off for dinnah [01:59] FloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (clone flood) [02:02] bazhang: best to just let staff deal with it, not much we cab do [02:02] stdin, okay thanks--could not enter them as users at any rate (no tab complete) [02:06] bazhang: what client do you use? [02:07] xchat Seeker` [02:07] any decent client should have tab complete [02:07] * mneptok makes the obligatory "CLI clients are superior" unhelpful comment [02:08] not for those bots Seeker` [02:08] mneptok: irssi ftw [02:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IRSeekDiscussion [02:08] please add points [02:09] Seeker`: i'm so irssi biased i use a GUI client with a "make it look like irssi" script :) [02:09] (when i use a GUI client) [02:09] bazhang: bots are just uses too, they were probably k-lined before you could tab them [02:09] * Seeker` notes the irony of the "No discussion" comment just below the huge title saying "IRSeekDiscussion" [02:10] stdin, that is what I had suspected thanks :) [02:13] meh [02:14] I'll reword it... I know what I want to write, I just don't know how to write it. [02:14] bazhang: staff is sometimes quicker than the bots ( on very rare occasions ) [02:15] thanks nalioth :) [02:20] PriceChild: "This page is for the summary of any IRSeek discussion" or something similar [02:22] sleep time [02:31] PriceChild: could you just name it "man wget?" :P [03:05] MenZa called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic (Battlefrank) [03:15] 03:15, time to stop working on the bot and sleep probably [03:16] sleeep. [03:16] btw, a bzr branch with my changes is at https://code.launchpad.net/~tsimpson/ubuntu-bots/tweak if you like them grab them ;) [03:17] bot-grabbing in public is illegal in some countries you know ;-) [03:18] I live in a freedom loving country, we can grab all the bots we want :p [03:19] stdin: well I can too but my lawyer says I should shut up [03:19] stdin: it's the pushing and merging that'll get you into trouble though. [04:11] jdong: who will protect you when the metal ones come for *you*? and they will ... [04:12] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1435090770451224720 [04:30] mneptok: you're going to be in prague? [05:41] Amaranth: eye yam [05:41] (sorry, commute-lag) [05:42] * Amaranth cancels flight [05:50] Amaranth: Prague polar bear Internet surveillance whores some night? [05:50] http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/30/big-brothel-internet.html [05:50] whoa [05:50] * Amaranth uncancels flight [05:50] ;) [05:51] you can't make a phrase like "Prague polar bear Internet surveillance whores" up. [07:21] so [07:21] good morning [07:28] anybody in here interested in some action? [07:28] well if you are head over to ##windows [07:29] mynetdude: why are you bring up other parts of the network here? [07:29] /me yawns [07:29] lolz... they've been feeding a troll for nearly 4hrs now [07:29] "have fun" [07:29] I've only been there for the last 20 mins [07:30] yeah I know it :D [07:30] dang lots of plusses here [07:30] mynetdude: but what does that have to do with the Ubuntu channels? [07:30] !idle | mynetdude [07:30] mynetdude: Please keep in mind that this channel is for operator/abuse questions only, and we ask you to part when you have no further business here, in order to keep track of users with pending inquiries. [07:31] mynetdude, so how can we help you? [07:31] tonyyarusso, cpudan80 told me to come here if help from an op was needed [07:31] ah ok well he didn't tell me that either [07:31] mynetdude, for ubuntu channel [07:31] ##windows [07:31] Ubuntu ops, oddly enough, do not op for Windows. [07:31] wrong place head on over to #freenode and look for a staffer [07:31] that's not an ubuntu channel [07:31] have a nice day [07:31] well I understand that, obviously no ircops here either? [07:32] alright if thats how you want to shoulder it... peace [07:32] for this channel everyone with a voice [07:32] maybe, maybe not [07:32] how odd... [07:32] na - someone having fun [07:32] cpudan has some misunderstanding about the governance of the network [07:33] wow [07:33] buh? [07:33] hmm? [07:33] there is no cpudan [07:33] wanted to invite to prevent further misconceptions [07:33] /wii cpudan80 [07:33] ack [07:34] /wii golf [07:34] so I just cleared out my mailq of spammerz [07:34] closely followed by some /wii tennis [07:34] * ompaul goes to work [07:34] cheers [07:46] !repomirror [07:46] Go to "System", "Administration", and "Software Sources" and choose "Other" from the drop down box. Then choose "select best server" and your system will choose the fastest mirror for you automatically. [08:17] is everyone having a "after meeting" hangover? [08:19] Myrtti: yes, the rope is hanging over the rafter. [08:19] how did it go? [08:19] Morning all [08:20] I just started to cry after the first 20 minutes and had to leave [08:20] what happened at the meeting? [08:20] I started to think that I'm not emotionally cabable of handling such ... slander is the first word that comes to mind [08:21] and once again considered resigning as an op [08:21] it's my weak point [08:21] steady on, dear. [08:21] Myrtti: you should have stayed, it got more circular [08:21] Myrtti: you could have left there dizzy [08:22] I felt seasick already [08:22] * mneptok twirls nalioth lightly around the floor [08:22] getting more dizzy would not have helped [08:22] * nalioth pirouttes mneptok off the side of the ship [08:23] *thud* dinghy [08:23] * jussi01 throws mneptok a rope [08:23] be more kind to yourself, mneptok, you're not dinghy ( no matter what anyone says ) [08:24] i think the term jono likes is "fucking batshit" [08:24] /me sighs [08:25] talking of jono [08:25] mneptok: haven't we spoken about taht before? [08:25] nalioth: hmm wha'? [08:25] has the language in lug radio cleaned up at all? [08:25] mneptok: let us watch our language :| [08:26] nalioth: this channel is now "family friendly" at all times? [08:26] yes [08:26] it was one of the things discussed yesterday before I left, I believe [08:27] really? when did that take effect? [08:27] I've cussed here only once [08:27] after S left [08:27] i saw references to not using epithets in reference to others. [08:58] *sigh* [09:01] mneptok: after the CC meeting. [09:03] * Hobbsee ponders if emma really will reform, after being told to stop by sabdfl, and will actually behave like a good ubuntu user. [09:03] perhaps [09:08] * Daviey wonders if certain ubuntu ops will reform, after being told by sabdfl to stop [09:09] probably [09:09] as it is, a lot of the comments have been apologised for. [09:09] and i've not seen them again. [09:09] i think there's useful stuff that will come of the further discussions, including about channels that allow suboptimal things, like personal attacks and stalking. [11:06] kuahara in #ubuntu ops trolling about installing XP SP2 to random people. Asked multiple times to stop [11:13] /me observes [11:14] ahh your awake [11:51] tech0007 called the ops in #ubuntu () [11:52] !search angry [11:52] Found: [11:52] !search feed [11:53] Found: don't feed the troll, feedthetroll, launch-feedback, feeding the troll [11:53] * Mez gets killed [11:53] !search ops [11:53] Found: desktops, opabuse, laptop, ops-#ubuntu-mozillateam, ops-#kubuntu, desktopsearch, exploit, ops-#xubuntu-offtopic, ops-#ubuntu-nl, kerry [11:53] thats the one [11:53] kerry? [11:53] !kerry [11:53] Services to index files for fast searching include: Beagle (front-ends: beagle, catfish, gnome-main-menu, mozilla-beagle for !GNOME; kerry, kio-beagle for !KDE; beaglefs for !CLI) - Tracker (tracker-search-tool, libdeskbar-tracker for GNOME; tracker-utils for CLI) - Strigi (strigi-applet, strigi-client for KDE, strigi-utils for CLI) - Kat (for KDE) - Pinot (and pinot-applet for GNOME) - Doodle (for CLI) [11:53] !opabuse. [11:53] Factoid opabuse. not found [11:53] was what I was looking for... [11:53] but it isnt the same old factoid [11:54] !exploit [11:54] There are people around who think it is funny to abuse a bug in certain routers by sending invalid DCC commands. When bitten by this bug ops in #ubuntu remove users so they are no longer targets. To fix it have a look here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixDCCExploit [11:54] oh [12:05] Daviey, there is no #*ubuntu* ban on miss E. if there was she would not be in -uk, -meeting and all the other #*ubuntu* channels she's in. In the future, please be factual and avoid twisting things to vilify us [12:06] "us" [12:06] ? [12:13] elkbuntu: I got the impression there was a #*ubuntu* ban on her [12:17] -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has left #ubuntu-bugs [requested by Hobbsee: " you are not welcome here, nor in any other #*ubuntu* channel."] [12:18] I think the fact that the -uk ops were also questioned if they were going to ban emma agrees with my statement. [12:19] but hey, if i'm wrong - elkbuntu, are you suggesting each ban on emma stands on it's own merit for incidents that have happend within tjose chabbels? [12:19] Daviey, the -uk ops have been asked due to concerns expressed by one of your longer-term users. [12:19] *spell [12:19] nooo, it was asked way before that [12:19] the -us ops to my knowledge have not been approached. [12:19] meanwhile, saying one is not welcome does not constitute a ban [12:20] semantics [12:20] anyone running intrepid in here yet? chroot or system? [12:20] Daviey, the user's issue has been around as long as she's been in -uk [12:21] I can't see where you point is going, but if you want to continue it - i'll be free later [12:21] .win 13 [12:22] Daviey, i think you're refusing to see, as you've refused to help your fellow loco'er [12:24] elkbuntu: can you define who "us" is, please? [12:25] Daviey, err... you mean where i said -us? as in -US as in the United States version of -uk aka -UK? [12:25] no [12:25] please be factual and avoid twisting things to vilify us [12:25] ^ that "us" [12:26] Daviey, the main channel ops. [12:26] i don't think i was. [12:27] then why were you petitioning in the meeting? [12:28] elkbuntu: i note that neither you nor anyone else on the irc ops team approached me about emma being in -uk [12:28] because the fact remains, she is banned from most of the #*ubuntu* channels.. if she enters another one - such as #ubuntu-bugs, she is banned very quickly [12:29] popey, i was informed that you were approached. [12:29] by Hobbsee [12:29] who AIUI isn't on the irc council [12:29] i was informed that pricechild had too [12:29] sorry, i said irc ops team, meant irc council [12:30] at no point was I approached by anyone _saying_ that this had been escalated to the irc council [12:30] popey, one has to be on the council to bring an issue to you? you're close to 'choosing who to respect' here [12:30] no [12:30] I didn't say that [12:30] why should it have to be escalated before something gets done? [12:30] because the irc ops are involved in the issue [12:30] AIUI if the irc ops are involved in the issue it should be escaled higher [12:30] how are the irc ops involved in one user stalking another? [12:30] irc council being one step [12:30] cc the next [12:31] which irc op is involved? [12:31] the conflict has been between emma and the irc ops IMO [12:31] maybe I'm wrong on that [12:31] that's my interpretation [12:31] um... the person who is being stalked is not an op. [12:31] emma is not an op. [12:31] elkbuntu: If you stalk a user, especially cross network - how can you be deemed suitable to deal with it? [12:31] i didn't say she was [12:31] where does 'the ops are involved' fit into one non-op stalking another non-op? [12:31] i said the irc ops are _involved_ [12:31] i asked _how_ [12:32] thats yet _another_ issue [12:32] i see two issues here, 1) between emma and the irc ops, 2) between one non-op and another non-op [12:32] the fact that Hobbsee came to talk to me about issue 2) is related to issue 1) of course [12:33] Daviey, who is stalking who now? [12:33] elkbuntu: Did you join another network where emma was on to call her a Liar and make accusations? [12:33] Daviey, she is showing up on servers hobbsee and i have been on for over a year [12:34] That statement is irrelevant [12:35] that statement is not irrelevent. i did not join anything to do anything to her [12:35] so you happend to fall into a channel where only she and another user were talking? [12:36] i followed up a report [12:36] all, allow me to clear up something, just so elkbuntu isn't referencing something 3rd hand that may get her into difficulty [12:37] I've had incidents in multiple channels where some of my peers on other projects have been "queried" about me, the projects I work on and some personal information (nothing of any warrent) [12:37] Some of that information has been referenced against me in public ubuntu channels [12:37] (against is the wrong word) [12:37] this information is dropped into conversations by emma at random times [12:38] I have made a complaint to the -uk staff about this topic [12:38] the issue was delt with in house as I'm told, so I've not progressed it any futher [12:38] who did you complain to? [12:38] ikonia: I never recieved this complaint from you [12:39] well, I complained to Seeker` directly, and then progressed it futher to popey that I wasn't happy with the outcome [12:39] Daviey: I've not complained to you direclty that I can remember [12:39] ok [12:40] ikonia: _I_ approached _you_ about the spat with emma [12:40] popey: no [12:40] popey: you never responded [12:40] I did, on april 18th at 11:18 [12:40] ditto :) [12:40] have you got a log of that conversation (not pulling on logs) I remember prompting you 2 - 3 times about it [12:40] yes, looking at it now [12:41] I also spoke to Hobbsee about it as she was the only available op around at the time and I believe she also took it up [12:41] took it up with you, I should say [12:41] she did, she approached me directly [12:41] and based on reading a few lines of one day of logs of -uk [12:41] she pretty much said I was unfit to op [12:41] thats not the issue I raised [12:42] i would make the log public if Hobbsee gives her permission [12:42] popey: Join the witchhunt, and all this will go away. [12:42] Daviey: I'm not doing a witch hunt, I'm just making it clear so that someone referencing third hand doesn't get things wrong/blamed [12:42] actually blamed is a wrong word, my mistake [12:43] does get any issue for getting a fact wrong [12:44] thats appreciated ikonia [12:45] popey: however the fact that a complaint is called a witchhunt, because the bigger and on going issues are not seen or aware is why I took it futher [12:45] Daviey: sorry to use your moment phrase as an example it is an EXAMPLE only [12:46] that was not a complaint/moan about Daviey's comment, just an easy example as it was on screen at this moment [12:46] i feel it's a witchhunt, yes, because in the same way Hobbsee thinks I'm reacting differently because the issue was with emma in -uk, I believe the ops are acting differently as a result of the people involved [12:47] however, this is all going over well trodden ground [12:48] Many of the op team are scared to do something about wrongdoings such as someone being stalked, because we'll be accused of harrassment, vendettas and witchhunts not just by the wrongdoers, but by people who argue someone's case for the sake of arguing to feel big. [12:50] is that aimed at me? [12:51] I've had it with the mud-slinging in here, on both sides. [12:58] * Hobbsee has no great problem with the log being given to those who are in here and talking, but does if it gets published somewhere for an eternity. [12:59] Last i checked, it was not required that i be on the IRC council to take up something that had been brought up with me, but not another member of the IRC council, as they were not at their computer screens. [13:00] If that is a requirement, I would ask that I be pointed to wherever all these rules and protocols are listed. [13:01] again, i didn't say that [13:01] well this is another timesink. Thanks elkbuntu for raising this. [13:02] At least we clarified that emma isn't banned #*ubuntu* channels.. I think we've all learn't something there [13:03] Hobbsee: can you explain why she was banned from #ubuntu-bugs as an example? [13:04] Daviey: because it's an #ubuntu-wide, non-loco channel (as we do not circumvent you guys) channel ban. [13:04] obviously, she needed to stay allowed in -meeting, with the CC stuff. [13:04] hmm.. that is inverse to what wlkhas stated.. or have i missunderstood [13:04] and she's only been allowed here again recently. [13:04] s/wlkhas/elkbuntu/ [13:04] um... Daviey how does a main channel-wide ban equal an #*ubuntu* ban? [13:05] since there are #*buntu* channels that are not main [13:05] Well considering Hobbsee made reference to it in a ban/remove, i think it's wholly equal [13:06] Daviey, "not welcome" does not equate "banned from" [13:06] it's unfeasible to ban her in every loco channel, particularly as we are not the ops there. That much, is up to you people. I believe she's also in #ubuntuforums for the same reason. [13:06] Daviey: I think you're reading too much into it. [13:06] it does, when it's the remove statement. [13:06] Daviey, no, it does not. [13:06] our opinions differ [13:07] invariably. [13:07] however, an #*ubuntu*-wide channel ban for all channels that have the ubuntuirccouncil as the contact is probably more correct. [13:07] which, last i checked, should include -bugs, unless it hasn't changed over. [13:07] it seeems i took leave at a great time that way i didnt have to deal with her pms and whatever else happened [13:07] So my statement to the CC last night was justified. [13:07] gnomefreak: I envy you [13:08] Anyway, i honestly don't have time right now if you wish to carry on with this.. I'll be avaliable later if you so wish :/ [13:08] :) im sure ill end up in something simular at some point again [13:12] Daviey, asking once was fine, asking repeatedly was rude, especially since the answer was given. [13:15] * Hobbsee is starting to suspect that Daviey has a personal vendetta against her. [13:16] it's bad enough that emma does, and is attempting to harass me in multiple networks and channels which have no relation to ubuntu, but Daviey is an op, so should be above such things. [13:17] * Hobbsee also is starting to suspect that a subset of the -uk ops are on a witchhunt over a small subset of the ubuntu ops group, too. [13:18] Hobbsee, according to sabdfl, yes, as an op he should not have a vendetta on you. [13:18] asking [18:42] Hobbsee: why can't you just stop it? 8 minutes after anyone had last said anything, seems to just be wanting to incite trouble. [13:18] and the things in this log...very revealing. [13:25] not true Hobbsee [14:37] * Mez sighs [14:53] odd scorllback [14:55] PriceChild, My thoughts too [15:06] Mez: I fear the day we think the same. [15:06] PriceChild, ? [15:07] * jussi01 hugs PriceChild... [15:07] nuthin :P [15:07] hehe [15:07] PriceChild, that wasn't very nice :( [15:07] haha [15:08] xcell :( [15:17] * PriceChild huggles Mez [15:17] I will save my sarcasm for lrl :P [15:26] PriceChild: you kill him and the floodbot1... [15:27] jdavies: hmm? [15:27] PriceChild: lrl == ljl? [15:27] oh, wait, come back (bot2) [15:27] -1* [15:31] wb LjL [15:34] jdavies: I meant lugradio live [15:35] aaah, right [15:59] AlphaOmega in #ubuntu going to be a pain [16:00] ikonia: watching [16:00] thank you [16:01] and the desktop effects got stucked on zoom, thus, very closly [16:01] ha [16:01] he's gone all quiet, no problem. thank you [16:02] no problem [16:05] eep there is a CC meeting scheduled during UDS [16:05] gr8 [16:05] Also, why didn't anyone mention the bit about emma PM'ing people we ban? [16:06] didn't seem there was a point [16:07] You guys around atm, add points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IRSeekDiscussion !! :) [16:07] PriceChild: I have no opinion either way [16:08] Let it me, get rid of it, whatever [16:08] s/me/be/ [16:08] PriceChild: you got mine in there but im sure i can think of more if i try hard enough [16:09] btw ubuntulog is still around so why would we need to replace it? i thought the point of it was to replace ubuntulog cause it was gone [16:10] i did like thte interface to IRSeek logs [16:10] i think the main decision in allowing irseek in my mind is... "yeah it doesn't add much, but it doesn't hinder us and it seems petty to stop" [16:10] Amaranth: probably because most people weren't there, and it suited the -uk guys not to say stuff like that, to shake more dirt on us. [16:10] I didn't even know about the meeting :/ [16:10] That was, what, 14 hours ago? [16:11] was at 7am local time. it's 1am nwo. [16:11] so, 18, iirc [16:11] So I was around [16:11] the 7 years bothers me asa to why so long but its petty at this time since they had already stated they wont change that [16:12] i spoke to ariel more about that, with christel. They were talking about changing it to 2-3 years. [16:12] well atleast from the reply to emmas email [16:12] Of course, I didn't bother to tell emma to that, because i didn't want to start a few hours worth of query. [16:13] and of course, anywhere new that she is, where i turn up, she then starts defaming me [16:13] so i figured she could just live in ignorance. [16:13] honestly, I don't get the opposition. there most likely are unknown log-bots in #ubuntu anyway so what's so bad about letting the one we *do* know about log? [16:13] after the way she went at you in -party when i got home i didnt expect you to say much of anything to her [16:13] stdin: because it's israeli. [16:13] gnomefreak: i don't remeber the -party stuff, for some reason. [16:13] military [16:14] yeah, put on your tin foil hats [16:14] i remember her being annoyed at her getting banned for telling us how to do our jobs, and expressing her distaste at the other guy not being banned before she was. [16:14] my problem is because only bots ran by staff/ops in official channels the bots were official and no other bots now we are letting a non official bot in others will want to bring thier bots in [16:14] gnomefreak: there are still requirements on whether they can talk. [16:15] or set modes, etc. [16:15] ie, only some of the official bots can talk, adn no others [16:15] bots which are properly lobotomized are of little consequence. [16:16] the IRCC will need to ammend the guidelines to state that [16:17] i thought they did somewaht, but it would be nice if they did, yes. [16:17] * gnomefreak not really for or against it but i am trying to catch up on it since this all happened on my leave [16:17] there's certianly an on join message now [16:17] heh [16:19] stdin: the main problems are that it's israeli, and may end up using the logs for profit, as it's a side project done by a company. [16:19] IRSeek has used questionable methods in the past to log channels without permission [16:19] that kind of bothers me without knowing what they did [16:20] I'm curious to hear why emma is now okay with Irseek [16:20] most clients log by default, so anyone could do whatever they wanted with the logs they have of just being in #ubuntu [16:20] Pici: due to the email between her and ariel [16:20] Pici: because it doesn't log forever. [16:20] gnomefreak: it wasn't an email. [16:21] oh i thought it was [16:21] Pici: the fact that it can still use logs for profit, etc, emma has either forgotten about, or appears not to care about. [16:21] gnomefreak: nah, was in #irseek-victims - i was lurking in those channels for a while [16:21] oh he stated he didnt get to her email but they talked on irc (i dont have link anymore) [16:22] was interesting, particularly as i had questions of my own to ask. [16:22] how does ariel fit into IRC or ubuntu other than logging? [16:22] Hobbsee: in what way could a company (any company, not just IRSeek specifically) use the logs for profit? [16:22] i might be misspelling his/her name sorry if i am [16:23] stdin: datamining perhaps? [16:23] gnomefreak: ariel == cohead of irseek [16:23] gnomefreak: i always get it confused too [16:23] soundray called the ops in #ubuntu (kami) [16:23] so he has no ties to irc or ubuntu other than to log channels? [16:23] stdin: unsure. i'm sure that there's probably some way, if you could sift through and find useful information in it, for any given problem. [16:24] gnomefreak: he has an interest in logging irc to produce informatoin in a searchable way, and to let people tap into that resource, pretty much [16:24] they could do the same with the logs kept by ubuntulog [16:24] stdin: oh, of course. but it's a 'slimey israeli company' and therefore shoudl not be encouraged. So the argument goes. [16:25] well thats kind of what i mean why change what works? what do we (community) get out of IRSeek seeing as they are getting maybe getting something out of it [16:25] stdin: the argument never did make sense, although emma's essay covers some of the finer points [16:25] I think sabdfl made it clear that the discussion should not include the origin of the company [16:25] sure he did. [16:25] so, their argument on that is mute [16:26] the company being based out of anywhere should never be the issue [16:26] Indeed. [16:26]