/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/05/09/#ubuntu-devel.txt

mathiazkees: while trying to merge ipsec-tools I got this error - cc1: warnings being treated as errors00:55
mathiazpolicy_token.c: In function '__libipseclex':00:55
mathiazkees: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11039/00:56
mathiazkees: is this related to the new hardening flags ?00:56
james_wmathiaz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags <- -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 seems to be relevant here.00:57
mathiazjames_w: thanks :)00:59
andrew___Who is it that actually decides what goes onto the Ubuntu CD, and how do us mortals go about understanding (and potentially altering) their reasoning processes?01:05
andrew___As opposed to universe etc.01:05
_MMA_The Tech Board and or Desktop team I believe.01:08
_MMA_And nothing from Universe goes on to the disks.01:08
Amaranthnot true01:09
mathiaz_MMA_: well - it depends which iso you're refering to01:09
Amaranthxubuntu is in universe01:09
_MMA_Oh jesus. Nit-pick. He said Ubuntu. ;)01:09
Amaranthhehe01:10
_MMA_So :P01:10
* Amaranth pokes _MMA_01:10
mathiaz_MMA_: it was true that nothing from universe could be on the cd. But this has been changed during the last release cycle so that xubuntu, ubuntustudio and other derivatives can be built01:10
Amaranthubuntustudio is in main, no?01:11
TheMusoNo.01:11
TheMusoIts the primary reason that universe packages can be on disks.01:11
Amaranthmost of it is :P01:11
_MMA_mathiaz: I'm sorry. You obviously don't know who you're talking to.01:11
andrew___The reason I'm asking is that to some extent the remote recovery issue is about defaults and policies rather than optional components, and I'd like to understand a little about that side of the process.01:11
_MMA_andrew___: I think people like Colin are the best resource for that.01:12
_MMA_A post to ubuntu-devel-discuss might be in order.01:12
andrew___There've been a few on the issue already :)01:13
Amaranthwhat, specifically, do you want changed?01:13
andrew___Well, I'm still going through the understanding stage...01:14
andrew___I've been bugging anyone that will listen for the past few days about ways to do better tech support for friends.01:14
mathiazandrew___: technically, a ubuntu-core-dev has to make a change to the seeds - so you'd have to convince a core-dev to make that change.01:15
Amaranthcore-dev has access to the seeds?01:16
andrew___How do they tend to feel about new packages getting accepted into main?01:16
_MMA_No. It's not that simple. It is a team decision.01:16
mathiazAmaranth: yes01:16
Amaranthandrew___: To get a package into main you have to file a main inclusion report01:16
andrew___Do they prefer packages that are small, or well established, or well-maintained...?01:16
Amaranthandrew___: then you need to talk to the relevant team01:16
Amaranthif it's in main it should be well maintained and have no crazy security issues01:17
mathiazandrew___: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionProcess01:18
andrew___Thanks - I think that's what I needed to know.01:19
Amaranththat page is no longer valid01:19
andrew___Or at least, it'll shut me up for another few hours :)01:19
Amaranthnot everything in main is supported by canonical01:19
mathiazAmaranth: huh - that page is still valid IIRC01:20
Amaranththe steps are right, the reasons are not01:20
mathiazAmaranth: what do you refer to by 'supported by canonical' ?01:20
stdincommercially supported by commercial support people, commercially :)01:23
=== foka_ is now known as foka
_MMA_mathiaz: ie: There are things in Main you can't get paid support from Canonical on.01:31
pwnguin_MMA_: im sure if you name the right price you can?01:34
jdonghmm, compiz runs a LOT slower with DDR-533 unmatched sticks of RAM01:36
jdongon the GMA950.01:36
jdongtime to revert this setup01:36
pwnguingma950 uses RAM?01:37
jdongpwnguin: GMA950 uses only RAM01:37
jdongpwnguin: it has no dedicated graphics RAM01:37
_MMA_pwnguin: Who knows. I haven't talked to the support guys enough to know.01:37
pwnguinim sure handing off hard stuff to the CPU doesn't help01:37
jdongpwnguin: so I guess having dual-channel interleaved RAM is important01:38
pwnguindouble throughput is important -- 3d stuff is very bad at caching01:38
jdongoddly seems like Firefox is the only major offender01:39
jdonghmm01:39
* TheMuso has never liked shared RAM.01:40
pwnguinlots of pixmaps in ff01:40
vlowtheranyone here willing to help me debug a kernel-related suspend/resume problem on 2.6.24-17 on Hardy?  It appears to be scheduler-related, but debugging it beyond what I can see in the log is a bit tricky.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/212660 has details -- the short version is that suspend/resume last worked properly on 2.6.24-12 for me.01:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 212660 in linux "kernel 2.6.24-16 fails suspending" [Undecided,Confirmed]01:41
TheMusovlowther: You may get more help in #ubuntu-kernel.01:41
vlowtherheh, did not know that channel existed.01:42
vlowtherI will ask there.01:42
pwnguinTheMuso: that assertion is tenous at best01:43
pwnguinvlowther: you may get better help in the ubuntu-kernel mailing list.01:44
vlowtherpwnguin: indeed.01:45
pwnguinas far as i can tell, the ubuntu kernel team uses IRC to communicate with other ubuntu kernel team members, and anyone else's best hope is getting ogarasawa's attention =(01:46
TheMusopwnguin: ?01:47
pwnguinTheMuso: i'm just suggesting that i see unanswered calls for attention plenty in that channel.01:47
vlowtherwn that case, why bother with a public channel at all?01:48
TheMusopwnguin: Right.01:48
Amaranthwell, this channel is the same way, really01:49
pwnguinexcept nobody says "go to ubuntu-devel for bug help", that I know of01:50
vlowtherwell, I come here because people only want to look at easy things on #ubuntu01:57
mathiaz_MMA_: do you have example of such packages ?02:20
mneptok_MMA_: got an example?02:20
mneptokhahahahahahahaha!02:20
* mneptok bops mathiaz on the nose02:20
AmaranthI did before hardy02:24
Amaranthmaybe that's changed now, i dunno02:24
mneptokAmaranth: examples of unsupported packages in Main?02:24
Amaranthyeah, xubuntu stuff :P02:25
mneptokuh ..02:25
mneptokfark you, too. ;)02:25
mneptok*smewch*02:25
* mneptok beams brightly at Amaranth 02:25
* Amaranth gets confused02:25
pwnguindo i have someone on ignore? cuz this isnt making sense =/02:26
mneptokAmaranth: you had me wracking my brain for Main packages i didn;t think of.02:26
mneptokand then ... "Xubuntu."02:26
LaserJockpwnguin: same here ;-)02:26
mneptokthere is no support for Xubuntu.02:26
mneptokany pacakges. at any time.02:26
mneptokso the slap was for making me start to actually think ;)02:27
LaserJockI believe there are other packages in Main Canonical doesn't support02:27
LaserJockand Xubuntu is in Universe now right?02:27
mneptokLaserJock: do you have an example?02:27
mneptokLaserJock: 'cos i don't02:27
LaserJockwell02:27
mneptoki'm not saying i couldn;t have overlooked something.02:27
LaserJockdo you have a list of things Canonical *does* support? :-)02:28
mneptokpackages in Main.02:28
mneptoka short list of vital Universe stuff.02:28
mneptokthat's it.02:28
mneptok(slmodemdaemon, when that was in universe)02:28
LaserJockMain/Universe is not how Canonical support is defined02:29
mneptokit is here.02:29
LaserJockhow interesting02:29
LaserJockmdz said it wasn't02:29
LaserJockand I would think he'd know02:30
mneptokLaserJock: like i said, it doesn;t break out exactly along repo lines02:30
LaserJocksure02:30
mneptokLaserJock: but we still use repo names to define things02:30
mneptoklike "a few critical packages from Universe"02:30
LaserJockmneptok: and some Main packages that aren't supported ;-)02:31
mneptoki know of none02:31
mneptoki await an example.02:31
mneptok(not to make that sound like a stupid challenge)02:31
crimsun(I presume a support contract w/ Canonical overrides component lines anyhow.)02:31
LaserJockwell, is abiword and gnumeric supported?02:32
mneptokyes.02:32
LaserJockyou sure?02:32
mneptok*blink*02:32
LaserJockwell, stupid question02:32
LaserJockbut I wasn't aware that it was02:32
mneptokall fourteen users of both apps are entitled to support.02:33
* mneptok runs02:33
LaserJockoverall I'm not sure that Canonical knows what's supporte02:33
LaserJock+d02:34
mneptokwe do not fully support anything with a non-Free license02:34
mneptokas we cannot guarantee resolution02:34
LaserJocksure02:34
mneptok*with* a free license, it basically breaks out along repo lines, but with some exceptions. hence mdz's comment.02:35
mneptokpersonally, i'd like to stop supporting GUI environments and server daemons. when i mentioned it, sabdfl asked me to wait in the lobby for the adults to finish their conversation.02:36
andrew___If I allow untrusted users SSH access to an account on my computer, where the account is in a chroot jail, they can only run a specific command I specify (not a shell), and remote and X11 forwarding are disabled (but local forwarding is enabled), have I compromised the security of my computer in any way?02:37
LaserJockmneptok: well, there have historically been examples like Xubuntu02:38
mneptokXubuntu != Ubuntu02:38
LaserJockso?02:38
mneptokCanonical Support offers commercial support for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Edubuntu02:38
hi5For bandwith challanged users, it'd make sense to just download the compressed differences between an old package in the apt cache and a new version of a package. Could an rsync method driver to apt be a solution, for instance?02:39
_MMA_mneptok: re: "Example packages" when Xubuntu went to Universe there was a big chat in here and people like Matt Z. Colin and Scott R. mentioned a good few I believe. Besides the previously mentioned Xubuntu packages. Making a list of unsupported packages was mentioned but I don't know if anything came of it.02:39
LaserJockright, but Xubuntu was in main and dragged in quite a bit02:39
mneptok_MMA_: Xubuntu is not supported. therefore, its packages, regardless of repos, are not supported.02:39
LaserJockright02:39
mneptok_MMA_: it's not that "stuff in Main is not supported." it's that "Canonical only supports certain variants"02:40
_MMA_Sure. But that was under contention at the time.02:40
LaserJockbut you asked for packages in Main that aren't supported by Canonical02:40
_MMA_No. I don't think it's that cut and dry either.02:40
LaserJockor did I get the question wrong?02:40
mneptokLaserJock: Main/Xubuntu is not the same as Main/Ubuntu02:40
_MMA_ As I said others had examples.02:40
LaserJockmneptok: so?02:41
mneptokso, when you say "Canonical supported stuff in Main" it assumes a variant that actually has support.02:41
_MMA_I want to get jackd back into Main to be able to build PulseAudio packages that can work with JACK. I doubt that will get support from Canonical.02:41
LaserJockmneptok: when people say "Canonical provides support for Main" it implies that *all* of Main is supported, right?02:42
andrew___hi5: Isn't that what jigdo does?02:42
hi5andrew__: I don't think so, but i might be wrong02:42
mneptokLaserJock: Canonical provides support Main packages on supported platforms.02:42
mneptokLaserJock: therefore, if you install a Main package on Sid, no dice.02:42
hi5that's more for dividing iso files into .debs and recompiling afaik02:42
LaserJockmneptok: Canonical provides support for most of Main on supported platforms02:43
hi5it doesn't provide 32/64K diff from one .deb to another02:43
hi5and it's not for apt02:43
LaserJockhowever, I again don't know that it matters much02:43
_MMA_LaserJock: At one point I thought on ubuntu.com it wasn't as clear as that. Hence all the confusion about Xubuntu.02:45
_MMA_I think a bug was even filed.02:45
LaserJock_MMA_: the website says "The main distribution component contains applications that are free software, can freely be redistributed and are fully supported by the Ubuntu team"02:47
_MMA_bug 17267202:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 172672 in canonical-website "http://www.canonical.com/projects claims that Xubuntu is supported by Canonical" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17267202:47
_MMA_Looks like it's been fixed. SHould close the bug.02:48
pwnguinone should note that the Ubuntu team and canonical are not identical sets02:52
hi5Re:rysnc method driver for apt. The context of this can be anything from people over sat connections, 3rd world countries (like iraq where there is no fiber, or copper backbones/lines since the ground is so hard it's almost impossible to run it so everything is expensive sat. based), or saving bandwidth / speeding up updates 1000x for all users / saving money to run repos. Are there no thoughts?02:52
LaserJockpwnguin: exactly02:52
LaserJockwhat goes in main is independent of Canonical02:53
andrew___hi5: Depends how much work you're planning to put in.02:53
LaserJockthough it certainly works well for Canonical to use Main to define support02:53
hi5andrew__: Well, I've spent days getting enough info to formulate that question properly.02:53
andrew___hi5: Yeah, I know that feeling :)02:54
pwnguinhi5: so this means you're doing investing time, or does it mean you're in it for the long haul?02:54
hi5Annoyingly, people's response of "bandwidth is cheap" is highly beside the point, and innacurate for most of the non-western world.02:54
andrew___hi5: What's the average size of the binary diff between two versions of the same package?  How does it differ between packages?  How does that compare to the diff between source packages (a la Gentoo)?02:55
pwnguinif you're merely looking for counterpoints, CPU time isn't cheap either.02:55
pwnguinandrew might have a point -- .debs are compressed and may not make good rdiff candidates02:56
hi5So I'm pretty invested in this. I should note that I've receive many responses to contact the various devel lists however I'm not a developer. Hence my apprehention about contacting a dev list which a.) may not care b.) would be annoyed I'm just a (l)user02:56
hi5However, after much research it appears no such solution exists... which is very surprising to me considering how obvious this seems02:56
hi5(even to a new user)02:56
awalton__it may seem obvious, but the solution is definitely non-trivial to implement.02:57
andrew___As to (b), I'm not much more than a (l)user myself.  If they start picking on us, we should unionise ;)02:57
hi5awaiton: Why? nobody has been able to tell me why?02:57
pwnguinim not familiar with how rdiff works, but it may require a non trivial amount of disk space02:57
awalton__hi5, better idea: try it. realize just how hard it really is.02:57
LaserJockdoesn't it take quite a bit of CPU on the server as well?02:58
andrew___hi5: I'm not sure of the technology details, but here's a thought experiment based on how I would expect it to work:02:58
pwnguinLaserJock: indeed02:58
pwnguinoh dear02:58
andrew___Imagine a 10MB binary split into 1024 10KB chunks...02:58
hi5Well, real-time decompression of binaries on the server end, and similar on the client end mean you dont't need 20x the server space i'd think02:58
hi5but that was a theoretical concern i also had02:58
hi5though, hdd space is still cheaper than bw for a repo's purpose02:59
LaserJockI'm fairly sure the current servers basically out of space02:59
pwnguinif there's fifty versions you might upgrade from02:59
andrew___Version n+1 of the file inserts a single byte at the front of the first chunk....02:59
andrew___this causes every single chunk to appear different, and need to be re-downloaded.02:59
awalton__ideally, packages would be distributed over something like bittorrent, where you don't care so much about compression and on-disk space, but focus on the perfect reproduction of the file and various locations of retrieval. at least, IMO.02:59
LaserJockif you imagine having to house diffs for all packages for all versions it can be pretty significant03:00
pwnguinLaserJock: wikipedia is enlightening03:01
hi5awaiton__:no offense, did you even read my post?03:01
pwnguinbasically, it's compute intensive because it network computes the diff03:01
hi5Seriously, empathise with someone outside of your country for a moment.. bit torrent doesn't solve a bandwidth issue for a single node. It merely distributes it among many similarly bandwidth endowed nodes03:02
pwnguinhi5: wouldn't a CD be just as / more effective?03:02
hi5pwnguin: yes, i can see that being a minimal issue03:02
pwnguin"minimal"03:02
hi5pwnguin: a cd would not be effective03:02
awalton__hi5, the best way I can sympathize with you is to say, I don't want you wasting any bandwidth on bad downloads03:03
hi5a cd as a compromise would be a tad bizarre to me in fact03:03
pwnguinthat "minimal" issue of CPU use very well may kill servers on upgrade day03:03
pwnguintake one server and add a couple hundred / thousand users and bam, instant problem03:04
LaserJockpwnguin: almost for sure03:04
awalton__bittorrent is designed so files don't 'fail' during download. time sensitivity can come from using the absolute best compression available (something like lzma), but using something like binary diffs is almost never a good idea due to just how tricky they are to get to work...03:04
hi5so, this avoids the topic at hand doesn't it?03:04
hi5I think those are administrative issues, and ones that aren't impossible to deal with03:04
pwnguinwhat?03:04
hi5cpu load vs bw load03:04
pwnguinCPU is an administrative problem?03:04
hi5etc03:04
LaserJockhi5: but you wondered why it hadn't been implemented03:04
LaserJockthat's one very good reason03:05
hi5First, less defensively folks, is there consensus that this isn't implemented somewhere?03:05
awalton__that's for you to answer. but I doubt it.03:05
hi5It seems many people say "use jigo" or "debian already does that" and such03:05
andrew___I'm not aware of anything like that for binaries.03:05
pwnguinive seen about a billion attepts at alternative apt transports03:05
pwnguini think i saw an apt-rdiff03:05
hi5http://www.tjansen.de/debiff/ comes to mind03:06
andrew___Source downloads are a different matter, because that's a much easier problem to solve.03:06
pwnguini know ive seen an apt torrent03:06
hi5pwnguin: same03:06
awalton__someone tried apt over bittorrent before, but it was pretty poor :/03:06
hi5awaiton__: there's better alternatives to that too. it works fine for me ;)03:06
awalton__the idea wasn't bad though, it's just hard to make work.03:06
hi5agreed03:06
awalton__binary diffs on the other hand, are almost impossibly hard to make work on a widescale.03:07
pwnguinthe BT problem is one of availability -- you need to be able to trade chunks across packages03:07
andrew___hi5: If you don't mind trading a lot of CPU for less bandwidth, how do you feel about downloading source and compiling it?03:07
awalton__pwnguin, that's not such a hard problem once you realize you have a captive set of mirror servers across the globe to act as seeds...03:07
hi5ah, a good point about client end cpu03:07
hi5seems then patching would be possible via using deb-src?03:08
hi5I still think it's not apple-apples though. Compiling an OS, vs cpu use for making diffs of binaries is not comparable03:08
pwnguinhi5: thats not at all the point though. the point is you're asking ubuntu and mirrors to spend massive CPU on behalf of users, and he countered with a scenario where the user spends instead ;)03:09
hi5well, bandwidth bills are already an issue03:09
pwnguinkinda03:10
pwnguina lot of university institutions donate to the cause ;)03:10
hi5so, i don't see why a bandwidth -> cpu tradeoff would be so unheard of03:10
awalton__you might be better off with the postal system if bandwidth is that big of a problem...03:10
pwnguinhi5: more fundamentally, I'm not sold on rdiff substantially improving the bandwidth problem03:10
StevenKhi5: Usually since it's CPU hit on both ends of the pipe.03:10
hi5right, but donate != free03:10
hi5it's still costly03:10
hi5just not costly to someone on a wester DSL line03:11
hi5(again, a tradeoff does exist)03:11
pwnguinthere is no free lunch03:11
StevenKhi5: And server administrators tend to not like process that constantly chew CPU.03:11
pwnguincanonical offers something close with the CDs though ;)03:11
andrew___The claim being made is that binary diffs are a hard problem.  You can accept that, or explain what you're not understanding about the problem, or go and prove everyone wrong, but (without wanting to be rude), just dismissing the claim doesn't work.03:11
mrechi, anyone here who knows about that broken ubuntu alsa configuration?03:12
hi5andrew__: the claim being made is unsubstantiated03:12
pwnguinandrew___: i think that IF you managed to undo the ar compression on packages, you'd probably see some great gains in bandwidth03:12
awalton__hi5, google it. do some research into the issue.03:12
hi5so without being rude (which you are) it's not helping me. besides, this isn't my personal pet peeve. i'm trying to help03:12
hi5i don't think many ppl understand this03:12
pwnguinhi5: as a challenger to the status quo, and a champion of the under championed, you'd be well off to substantiate the opposite03:13
hi5i've seen this topic brought up many times before, and it's odd how there's a peculiarly hostile reaction to it. sorry for being new, i just don't understand why this issue sticks out like a sore thumb03:13
LaserJockhi5: I believe the Canonical sysadmins have said that it'd probably be too CPU intensive with what we have now03:13
pwnguinif all rdiff/rsync does is transfer modified blocks, compression is likely to nuke that idea in hurry03:14
hi5laserjock: I appreciate the response, and I've been trying to figure out if that's the case03:14
LaserJockhi5: people *have* looked into this issue and it's not that we're saying "it can't be done" but just that "it's probably not feasible at this time"03:14
mrecdoes anyone know if the alsa drivers got recompiled for ubuntu hardy or are they just taken from debian?03:14
LaserJockalthough there are significant other concerns about some techniques03:15
pwnguinmrec: whats the version of alsa?03:15
andrew___hi5: In fairness to you, there is an issue that this doesn't scratch the itch of many developers, because they tend to be behind fat pipes (or they wouldn't have been able to learn enough to become developers).03:15
hi5laserjock: interesting03:15
LaserJockandrew___: I honestly don't know that that's totally true03:15
hi5andrew___: yes, this is part of my aggravation. if i had dev skills, i'd work on this. I'm actually reading "Computer Programming for Dummies" right now sadly03:15
LaserJockI know of devs on dialup03:15
hi5if i get the skills, i'll work on this03:15
mrecpwnguin: that's a good question...03:16
StevenKLaserJock: I'm in Australia, which is worse.03:16
awalton__hi5, that's probably why you don't appreciate just how difficult it is, no offense.03:16
pwnguinhehhaha03:16
hi5it annoys me how selfish and unempathetic ppl can be (no offense to anyone here, it's a general sentiment i get though sometimes)03:16
mrecI cannot compile external modules against the ubuntu hardy kernel because the alsa headers seem to be out of sync with the binary files03:16
hi5awaiton__: well, i don't know if you appreciate how easy it can be03:16
LaserJockhi5: on the other hand, you'd be surprised I think at how unselfish and empathetic people can be03:16
awalton__hi5, I've done binary patching before, I can tell you just how hard it is.03:17
mrecwhoever build that kernel didn't know what he did03:17
pwnguincalling people selfish and unempathetic strikes me as arrogant, on the other hand ;)03:17
awalton__hi5, it's especially not trivial when you realize just how many users there are, how many different versions are in the field, and how hard quilting binary diffs is..03:17
mrecbuilt*03:17
awalton__hi5, if it were trivial, it would have been done years ago, and thusly not an issue.03:18
andrew___hi5: I think you need to be reading a book on statistics rather than programming, actually.  If you can show that debiff will reduce bandwidth by X% and increase CPU usage by Y%, we can have a proper debate about whether it's worth it.  Until then, we're all just hand-waving.03:18
awalton__*not be03:18
hi5awaiton__: andrew__: well, i can appreciate the science and bit swapping of binary comparisons a lot03:18
pwnguinhi5: andrew is right. if you can demonstrate that rdiff is a win or at least a substantial tradeoff, you'd have far fewer opponents. and possibly a few volunteers03:19
hi5however, tools for doing this already exist it seems03:19
hi5so it's not like the wheel needs to be reinvented. so i consider some of those points red herrings03:19
hi5well, without implementation, statistical theory is pulling numbers out of my arse03:19
hi5i need a test bed03:19
hi5and i'm trying to build one!03:19
awalton__hi5, just because a peg exists, doesn't mean that it necessarily fits the whole...03:19
awalton__*hole03:20
hi5right, that's a platitude03:20
hi5not a response to the problem at hand03:20
awalton__think about it this way: ever had to downgrade a package?03:20
hi5lol03:20
hi5yes03:20
hi5it's a PITA03:20
jdongpwnguin: just confirmed, switching from 1x2GiB + 1x1GB @533MHzz --> 2x1GB @667MHz made a HUGE difference in GUI performance03:20
awalton__hi5, think about doing a reverse binary patch.03:20
hi5:)03:20
pwnguinjdong: is anyone surprised? ;)03:20
jdongpwnguin: I sure am03:20
jdongpwnguin: I didn't expect noninterleaving RAM to have such a big performance impact as to make compiz UNUSABLE03:21
RAOFjdong, pwnguin: As am I.03:21
jdongI mean, it scrolled at 3 lines a sec in Firefox03:21
pwnguinyou upped the MHz, and dual channeled it03:21
andrew___hi5: this is a very rough methodology, but try this: check the version history for all the packages in Ubuntu, and see how often they're updated...03:21
jdongpwnguin: it was dual channeled03:21
jdongpwnguin: just not interleaved (striped)03:21
pwnguinwhat?03:21
hi5andrew__: i'm listening03:21
jdongpwnguin: popular benchmarks "cited" a 5% difference in performance03:21
jdongpwnguin: what I saw was more like a 75% difference03:22
pwnguinjdong: popular benchmarks use gma950 now?03:22
andrew___Then download the current and last-but-one version, compute the diff, and divide by the number of days between updates...03:22
jdongpwnguin: popular benchmarks OF the GMA95003:22
ajmitchjdong: that sounds seriously broken03:22
jdongajmitch: idn if it's an EXA bug or what03:22
andrew___That should put you on the road to a very rough number for bandwidth saved/day.03:22
jdongajmitch: OS X felt the same speed03:22
jdongjust Ubuntu crumbled without matched RAM03:22
andrew___Then you publish that, it gets ripped to shreds for being unscientific, you come up with a better methodology, and after half a dozen iterations, people start agreeing with you.03:23
awalton__then calculate the average frustrated user who got smited by a bad binary patch vs. the average user's anger of having to wait a few extra minutes for a package...03:23
andrew___awalton__: wait for the numbers.  The conclusion might be something that nobody expects.  Like, 90% of bandwidth goes on OpenOffice, and splitting that into yet more packages would cut bandwidth in half.03:24
awalton__(keeping in mind, of course, that the user who got bitten by a bad binary patch now has to download the whole package over again, or hope their file system does automatic revisioning.. or hope for a miracle of some other kind)03:24
pwnguinjdong: how do you dual channel sticks of differing size?03:25
jdongpwnguin: the access to RAM is distributed across to both channels independently, but they are not interleaved (i.e. striped)03:26
jdongpwnguin: from what I understand on Intel dual channel and interleaving are not the same03:26
pwnguinhmm03:26
pwnguinive only got AMD, this may explain things03:26
jdongpwnguin: the AMD K8 memory controller might treat the situation much differently03:26
pwnguinheh, in my experience, i cant boot incompatible ram03:27
pwnguinif they wont interleave, it wont boot =/03:27
awalton__the hidden horrors of on-core memory controllers -_-03:27
andrew___hi5: I already have that methodology licked: it doesn't account for the popularity of each package.  Multiplying by the results from popularity-contest will give you a (decidedly biased) way to deal with that.03:27
pwnguinawalton__: its' a fairly good win too in a lot of cases03:27
hi5hmm03:27
awalton__pwnguin, oh of course.03:27
awalton__pwnguin, just not the panacea that everyone makes it out to be...03:28
pwnguinas far as compiz performance difference goes, can more than one process render at once?03:28
pwnguinif not, then the idea that dual channel non interleaved should be fast might block right there =|03:30
jdongpwnguin: I'm not sure. It could also be Compiz or EXA doing something underneath that is bandwidth intensive on RAM03:31
jdongpwnguin: because clearly OS X coped with it fine, just Ubuntu whenever Firefox is visible slows down to like 15fps03:31
pwnguinyou mean like rendering to a texture and then rendering again?03:31
jdongpwnguin: I'm not sure, I don't nearly understand enouhg about the backend to make that judgement03:32
jdongpwnguin: but at any rate, my 3GiB setup finds happy home in a mobility radeon x1400 system :)03:32
jdongpwnguin: at the same time I had both systems open, I also transplanted an ipw3945ABG into the macbook03:32
jdongwhich shall be interesting :D03:32
pwnguinhow do you transplant a wifi chip?03:33
jdongpwnguin: both are mini-PCIe03:33
jdongpwnguin: it was a straightforward swap minus fidgeting with antenna connectors03:34
pwnguinwait, do any macbooks ever come with ipw?03:34
jdong pwnguin nope.03:35
pwnguinheh03:35
jdongpwnguin: so I've created a transvestite mac. I think.03:35
pwnguin"osx sucks, my wireless card works fine in linux!!"03:35
pwnguinjdong: a frankentosh03:35
jdongpwnguin: lol currently, wifi support in OS X is a TODO03:36
jdong(wow, how many times do you get to say *THAT*?)03:36
pwnguinI had a friend who build a mac from refurb parts03:36
awalton__sit in the osx86 rooms, you'll see it a lot.. ;)03:36
jdongawalton__: true03:36
pwnguinhe mentioned that "it mounted into an ATX case just fine after drilling a few holes in the mobo"03:36
TheMusopwnguin: Surely other changes would have had to be amde to the back of the case for connectors etc?03:40
pwnguini have no idea, i didnt question him too hard after that03:41
TheMusoheh right.03:41
pwnguineven though it was on the floor and apart, i had seen it working previously03:41
pwnguinwe built and debugged nachOS on it03:41
awalton__heh, surprisingly Macs have been pretty standard PCs for years.03:42
awalton__the newer ones are even close to ATX inside..03:42
TheMusoawalton__: The mac pros? I woulln't think they were.03:42
TheMusowouldn't.03:42
jdongTheMuso: they are pretty similar to server xeons03:43
sladen"pretty standard" would not be the phrase that would come to mind03:43
jdongTheMuso: at least the one that I peeked inside03:43
awalton__they're close.. the mountings are a bit off, but I managed to put a normal PC board in mine03:43
jdongI had to put it back together when IS&T gave me a stare for disassembling a public terminal03:43
sladenthey have an x86 chip in them, yes.  But so does your washing machine and the space-shuttle booster rockets03:43
jdongsheesh!03:43
pwnguini recently saw a similar minded, though less capable, person who had affixed an apple logo sticker to an acer laptop03:43
pwnguinpeople03:44
awalton__then again I love apple's hardware, so I probably stick out...03:44
awalton__I'd use them exclusively if I weren't kentucky poor...03:45
pwnguinyou know, ive had to help look after some macs at a community college, and they don't hold up well03:45
pwnguinbut perhaps im comparing university lab use to my own standards03:46
awalton__mine have.. well, with the exception of the stupid frat kid who thought it would be a good idea to shatter my iBook's LCD...03:46
awalton__the powerbook I had before it held up to some pretty severe torture though03:46
jdongpwnguin: we have a lab that's all kerberized Macs and they hold up very well from both a software and hardware point of view03:47
jdongit's okay03:47
jdongit's decent hardware, not the best, not the only decent ones03:47
* jdong has a 1 year old macbook that's holding very well to constant abuse03:48
pwnguinwell outside the halls of MIT we have to deal with the evils of preferred vendors03:48
awalton__my condolences.03:48
jdongpwnguin: lol we to. 50% HP 40% Dell 10% mac03:48
pwnguinever heard of atipa?03:48
jdonggesundheit?03:48
pwnguinexactly03:49
jdong:)03:49
andrew___hi5: I don't suppose you could have a community of people that lack bandwidth who collectively keep a memory stick current?03:49
pwnguini dont think its coincindence that atipa spelled backwards is "a pita"03:49
RAOFSo, I've just helped someone unbreak their 3d in #ubuntu-bugs because they installed the fglrx-control package, thinking that it would be awesome.03:49
hi5andrew__: sorry, i've been reading stuff to implement the idea i think is more rational03:50
RAOFWhat it *actually* did was install xorg-driver-fglrx, not set it up, and break their 3d.03:50
hi5if this topic is still being discussed, i'll need to read back in a few to see if any useful ideas have emerged03:50
andrew___hi5: As in, Alice has the stick Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, Bob has it Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays; when Alice has the stick, she keeps [A-M]* current.03:50
hi5else, it appears i'm still on my own so03:50
hi5right, i understand andrew__03:51
hi5that's insane03:51
andrew___Not discussed, just me :)03:51
andrew___How so?03:51
hi5*oops, well.. no offense, that's insane03:51
pwnguinso is downloading a gigabyte of updates over dialup :P03:51
hi5large scale... 100,000 people in iraq won't do that03:51
pwnguini have a question03:51
pwnguinhow do you know that?03:51
hi5thanks for the idea, i just don't think you understand the scale03:51
RAOFIt would be nice to be able to not break people's systems, or at least flag some sort of warning.03:51
andrew___Yeah, you'd have to do it on the LUG level or something.03:52
hi5sorry if that sounded a tad asscorbic03:52
pwnguinyour dns says minnesota03:52
hi5yeah, well or setup a local server for repos03:52
hi5a fork of current debian / ubuntu etc used locally03:52
pwnguinhi5: have you actually consulted with the people you're presumablly attempting to help?03:52
hi5that's still what i'm after03:52
hi5for fuck's sake, screw it03:52
hi5get beyond the idea of help small group of ppl in africa, *i'm* someone that would be helped by this03:53
hi5so are MANY other's i've consulted in places like iraq03:53
hi5this is the solution they want03:53
hi5i'm sorry nobody in this chat can see why03:53
pwnguini can see why03:53
LaserJockhi5: I think we all understand the problem03:54
awalton__sure we can see why. it's the how we take issue with.03:54
awalton__saying "this would be cool" is awesome. doing that cool thing is often a lot harder.03:54
hi5well, no.. andrew said passing around a memory stick would be a solution. with all due respect, that's represents an extremely misunderstood notion of the problem03:54
LaserJockhi5: it's not that bad of an idea though03:55
pwnguinso is the problem rural minnesota or highly populated but underserved baghdad?03:55
LaserJockI know a lot of people do similar things in Latin America03:55
pwnguinive read the USB stick story on planet somewhere03:55
LaserJocksomebody sends a CD then it travels from town to town03:55
hi5physical media being passed around? i disagree.. there's invisible costs that are very high to that method03:55
hi5i'll admit it seems only advanced users in these circumstances understands the need03:56
andrew___I am assuming is that there are several people in a similar situation within walking distance of each other, but if that assumption holds, making it easy to use isn't a particularly hard problem.03:56
hi5which might mean that advanced programmer types see why this is a dumb idea (which is fine if it really is)03:56
awalton__it's not that it's dumb. it's just difficult.03:57
awalton__weighing the ideas, cost/benefit, it doesn't seem to work out to me. feel free to disagree and prove me wrong though.03:57
pwnguinoh i remember now. it was a story about distributing information in cuba by USB stick03:57
pwnguinguerllia sneakernet ;)03:58
andrew___pwnguin: guerilla is right - you're basically talking about a cell structure.  The IRA proved how well that scaled :s03:59
pwnguinso did al queda?03:59
pwnguin(and my dorm wing...)04:00
hi5awaiton__: appreciate the response, as I'm sure you hope I (or someone else) will also, I'll try and prove you wrong about that for the betterment and greater dispersion of gnu/linux.04:01
hi5hopefully it is as scalable as it still seems :)04:01
andrew___pwnguin: let's not get into an argument about whose terrorists are better ;)04:01
pwnguini wasnt sure if you were making a postive or negative claim there04:01
andrew___Who, me?04:02
pwnguini mean, the IRA claimed to give up / stop / disband / whatever04:02
pwnguinso anyways as an ignorant american i have no idea how well that scales04:03
andrew___Yeah, I'm just pointing out that cell structures are scalable.  The fact that the experts also tend to be bad guys isn't really relevant.04:03
hi5i just think the latency sucks04:04
hi5;)04:04
pwnguinwell thats a tradeoff ;)04:04
andrew___pwnguin: For the record, you're right.  The IRA stopped a while back, and so far as I'm aware, the place has been much better lately.04:07
hi5pwnguin: "so is the problem rural minnesota or highly populated but underserved baghdad?" just saw that. minnesota... you saw my IP? idk why I'm bouncing off a mn server atm, never have before. short answer: shouldn't matter.04:29
pwnguinwell they're two different problems04:30
pwnguinand yes, irc broadcasts dns unless you request a cloak04:31
hi5well, my pt is they shouldn't be held to two different standards. and i've never been to mn, just using the dns for various reasons04:34
hi5but it's water under the bridge unless you're driven by this issue as much as i am. otherwise, i've only got a few ppl interested so far i'm talking with and that's fine04:35
pwnguinwhy not? a dense and close knit community might accept different solutions than people living in rural MN or rural KS04:35
pwnguinrecall the seattle wifi project04:36
andrew___hi5: would it be fair to say that you've settled on keeping the current infrastructure but reducing the bandwidth?04:37
andrew___As opposed to weird-and-wonderful, highly location-specific solutions.04:37
hi5you mean as opposed to swapping flash drives to millions on sat. connections? yeah...04:38
andrew___Well that wasn't what I was proposing, but fair enough.04:39
pwnguinwhy is the target millions?04:39
hi5anyway, i fear the conversation here isn't constructive any longer except with those that have PMd me so if you really don't care about the issue, feel free to ignore what I've asked earlier and thanks for the info.04:39
pwnguini just wonder why this particular rdiff solution is important to the classes you presented.04:40
andrew___Yeah, I've said my piece w.r.t. reducing bandwidth.  I do wish you good luck, though.04:41
pwnguineither way, I'd love to read some concrete results04:41
pittiGood morning06:02
LaserJockmorning pitti06:02
ajmitchhello pitti06:03
cartman|officehi06:22
=== Arby_ is now known as Arby
geserGuten Morgen pitti06:32
=== asac_ is now known as asac
pwnguinso i found a hilarious lecture about rsync07:07
RAOFOrly?07:08
pwnguinby the author07:08
pwnguinhttp://ftp.gnumonks.org/pub/congress-talks/ols2000/high/cd2/2000-07-21_15-02-49_C_64.mp307:08
pwnguinhttp://olstrans.sourceforge.net/release/OLS2000-rsync/OLS2000-rsync.html <-- transcription07:13
arekmon ubuntu ftp there is a patch fixing somethings in 2.6.22 kernel - linux-source-2.6.22_2.6.22-14.52.diff.gz. I'm trying to find out where this patch is developed? Some repository I assume (where it's splitted into smaller logical chunks). Does anyone know where such repository can be?07:43
RAOFarekm: That'd be in the Ubuntu kernel git repository.  I'll dig up a link for you.07:43
RAOFarekm: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelGitGuide?highlight=%28kernel%2907:44
arekmthanks!07:44
siretartmorning folks!08:23
dholbachgood morning08:31
pittithekorn: argh, seems that p-lp-bugs fails all over the place :/08:31
pittihi dholbach08:31
dholbachhiya pitti08:31
mvohey dholbach08:32
dholbachhey mvo08:32
thekorngood morning, pitti and dholbach08:51
pittihey thekorn08:52
thekornpitti, do you have any hint on how to reproduce it?08:52
dholbachheya thekorn08:52
pittithekorn: I filed bug 228565 with an analysis and a patch08:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 228565 in python-launchpad-bugs "AssertionError: Wrong XPath-Expr in Secrecy.parse() '__xml'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/22856508:52
pittithekorn: (and a reproducer)08:52
pittithekorn: ever-changing LP *sigh*08:52
pittithekorn: I have more problems, but one after the other08:53
thekornpitti, this is already fixed in the .main branch by kees and bdmurray08:54
pittiah, great08:54
thekornand I think it was already uploaded to hardy, but I'm not sure08:54
pittimaybe only intrepid08:55
thekornyes08:55
pittigosh, the duplicate check pool is huge08:55
pittithe retracers will have a fun time with catching up :)08:55
pittithekorn: hm, maybe I should stop using the hardy packages and just keep a checkout of main in the retracers08:56
pittithekorn: is there anything in the ubuntu branches except the packaging?08:56
pitti(I don't use the packaging anyway, I just copy the module directory08:57
StevenKGrm. And the PPA buildds are langpack'd again.08:58
thekornpitti, using the .main branch is a good decision08:59
pittithekorn: that will work for the 'outside' retracer, but of course not for the ones in the chroots09:02
thekornpitti, maybe we should think about an always up-to-date PPA09:04
pittithekorn: if we can (reasonably) count on API backwards compatibility, I could also do some dirty tricks as symlinking the outside branch checkout to the retracer chroots09:05
thekornpitti, I do not plan the change the API in the intrepid cycle09:08
pittithekorn: I might try that then09:09
pittithekorn: hm, attachment parsing is broken in hardy final as well09:15
pitti$ python -c 'import launchpadbugs.connector as Connector; cb = Connector.ConnectBug(); cb.authentication=".lpcookie"; b=cb(218113); print b.attachments'09:16
pitti[]09:16
pittithekorn: is that also fixed in .main?09:16
thekornpitti, tworks in .main09:18
thekornthe reason for this was yet another string change in launchpad09:19
pittigah09:19
=== Tweenaks is now known as Treenaks
pittithekorn: hah, that 'symlink to p-lp-bugs checkout outside of the fakechroot' seems to work09:32
=== gnomefre1k is now known as gnomefreak
pittithekorn: do you already have a test script which exercises the usual stuff?09:34
pittithekorn: which we could run after a new lp release (also of edge)?09:34
Keybukmvo: my System Monitor window is being shy09:35
Keybukfor no readily apparent reason, it's transparent09:35
wgrantp-lp-bugs should be a lot nicer in a couple of months, particularly with the lack of breakage from changes.09:35
pittiwgrant: do you know something about a stable XML-RPC LP interface? :-)09:35
wgrantpitti: With Python library included.09:36
gnomefreakKeybuk: i saw same thing in blam i upgraded to a PPA package of xulrunner-1.9 nad it fixed it09:36
gnomefreakbut mozilla should be relasing RC1 in next few days/week09:37
wgrantSystem Monitor != XUL09:37
gnomefreakwgrant: blam isnt xul either09:37
gnomefreakleast i dont think it is09:38
wgrantwilliam@irranat:~/Development/ivle/trunk$ apt-cache show blam | grep gecko > /dev/null && echo "Isn't it?"09:39
wgrantIsn't it?09:39
thekornpitti, I started some test here: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~bughelper-dev/python-launchpad-bugs/better.testing.errors09:39
gnomefreaknope its not from what show says09:39
StevenKwgrant: grep -q09:39
wgrantStevenK: That works too.09:39
pittithekorn: ah, cool09:39
wgrantgnomefreak: gecko!09:39
thekornpitti, I plan to add this in the intrepid cycle09:39
gnomefreakwgrant: http://gnomefreak.pastebin.ca/101253109:41
thekornpitti, sorry I'm of for a weekend at the nordsee now, but I think it should be not hard to understand how this works, it's basically python testing/run_tests --all09:41
gnomefreakit looks mono to me09:41
wgrantI smell a libgecko2.0-cil.09:42
gnomefreakwgrant: ok i missed that09:42
wgrantgrep doesn't lie.09:43
pittithekorn: right; thanks a lot, and enjoy the Nordsee!09:43
pittithekorn: with that much sun it should be fun09:43
thekornyes, of course09:44
=== Martinp24 is now known as Martinp23
pwnguinhmm10:26
pwnguinpreliminary testing suggests apt-rsync cannot work10:26
pwnguinat least, not without huge effort somewhere10:28
pwnguinhttp://jldugger.livejournal.com/6115.html for anyone interested in hi5's rsync stuff from earlier.10:51
lucentI haven't been following apt-rsync10:53
* lucent reads10:55
lucentpwnguin: oh geeze, they're talking about rdiff on compressed data?10:56
pwnguinto be fair, all you have to do is patch gzip to make it reset every so often10:57
pwnguini ran across a project to try that, with suggested losses of 3 percent compression10:58
pwnguinor you could decompress the whole mirror ;)10:58
pwnguin(and .debs I guess)10:58
lucentthat sounded silly when I thought to suggest it10:58
lucentbut yeah10:58
lucentforget Deb package system for a moment, and let's take Gentoo system of source code downloads as an example11:00
pwnguinsomeone already suggested that11:00
lucentit's still mind-boggingly difficult to track diffs between source versions11:00
pwnguinuuh?11:01
lucentsay you have a source-based dist11:01
lucentfoo user wants an efficient and minimal update to the data they already have11:02
lucenthow do you make a package management system which only grabs the diffs between one version of code and the next?11:02
lucentit's okay for one or two packages, but the storage and management of so many packages, it is a lot of CPU overhead11:02
pwnguinlets ask linus torvalds11:03
pwnguini hear git does this11:03
lucentheh11:03
lucentyes scm systems are brought in11:03
lucenthave you heard about making apt torrent'able?11:03
lucentlike p2p style11:04
lucentin your journal entry, I read that the problem is about bandwidth being expensive, so I'm going on a tangent here11:04
pwnguinthis was also brought in11:04
lucentwhen Ubuntu makes a release, I saw an unnacceptable slowdown in the mirror system to fetch updates11:05
pwnguini think the guy who suggested it was called selfish and unempathetic ;11:05
pwnguin;)11:05
lucent:(11:05
pwnguinlike i said, too much investment in the solution instead of the problem11:05
\shwho deals with NEWing before the weekend? :)11:06
pitti\sh: my archive day today11:08
pitti\sh: I just finished kicking fakechroot and the retracers, I'll start dealing with archive stuff now11:09
mvoKeybuk: your system monitor window is transparent? out of the blue? you opened it and it was transparent?11:14
Keybukmvo: yeah11:15
pittiargh, len(NEW) == 58411:15
Keybuksome kind of weird interaction with murrine11:15
KeybukI guess that the system monitor app is rgba-aware11:16
Keybukbut dunno why it ended up semi-transparent11:16
mvoKeybuk: I switched to human-murrine to test it - is that sufficient?11:17
Keybukprobably, yeah11:17
pittidoko: can we remove gcc-4.0 from intrepid? it was removed in Debian long ago11:17
doko"long ago" = this year, but yes, we can do that now11:19
pittidoko: I meant 'not just last week' or so11:20
Keybukmvo: does for me, yes11:20
pittidoko: ok, thanks11:20
* mvo tries it on a intel system11:20
mvoKeybuk: it seems to be ok on a nvidia11:20
wgrantIt's fine on hardy/i915.11:24
seb128pitti: when are the next language packs update planned? I think spanish users really would appreciate, we keep receiving bugs about nautilus crashing or displaying weird strings11:28
pittiseb128: can they test the PPA ones? I was told to hold off until LP translations fixes a serious bug with teh Firefox translatiosn11:28
seb128pitti: well, the strings have been fixing in rosetta sor ppa should be correct11:30
seb128s/fixing/fixed11:31
pittiright; as I said, I'm waiting for asac/jtv to give me thumbs up11:31
seb128ok11:31
seb128what is the ppa line to add again? I should not it11:32
seb128s/not/note11:32
seb128can't type today ;-)11:32
pittideb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-langpack/ hardy main11:32
seb128danke11:32
pittide rien11:32
=== Shely_ is now known as Shely
ograargh11:39
ogramvo, why did u-m's icon change to such a scary thing ?11:39
ogra(i had the nice star/sun a second ago, now there is a huge red arrow)11:40
james_wisn't that for security updates?11:40
ograoh, we have different icons for different purposes now ?11:41
pittiah, I just wondered about the same11:41
ograjames_w, right, thanks for the hint, installing only the security updates changes the icon back11:51
james_wno problem11:51
asacpitti: seb128: current state, waiting on decision from kiko for the cherry-pick11:52
hungerWhy are there so many pending builds for fakechroot in the intrepid build queue?11:56
ograbecause pitti plays around :)11:57
Riddellpitti: please give back strigi/0.5.9-111:57
pittihunger: many as in 3 (ok), or many as in 1000 (bug)11:57
pitti?11:57
pittihunger: yes, took me three uploads to get it really right, sorry11:57
hungerpitti: 3 in the top 4 pending requests.11:57
pittihm, it shouldn't build the old versions...11:58
pittiRiddell: done11:58
Riddellthanks11:58
hungerpitti: Oh, sorry. I missed the diff in the last digit of the version:-)11:58
* ogra wonders why he still didnt get the new vbox modules yet11:58
ograthey were uploaded days ago11:58
xivulon_ogra, you were working with loopfiles some time ago', correct?12:02
xivulon_do you have any link to your project?12:02
ograxivulon_, yes and i resorted to use vfat and syslinux to not waste more time on weird grub hacks12:02
xivulon_what was your project about, if I may ask?12:03
ograxivulon_, i didnt push the code up anywhere yet, its a specially custom image for the Classmate PC12:03
ograbut its very dedicated to the HW in its design12:04
xivulon_ogra, ok, was looking into bootable usb key/hd devices, and was wondering if there was any overlap12:05
ograhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/hardy/12:05
ograxivulon_, there wil be overlap for sure if we go towards intrepid12:05
ograi want to look into an easy USB image builder for this release we all can use12:06
mvoogra: yes, what james_w said12:06
xivulon_i was looking for grub4dos + liveCDiso + overlaid file via uninonfs to make a bootable r/w liveCD like environ12:06
ograits a general topic on the platform team spec list :)12:06
xivulon_ogra if I am around when that is discussed at next uds I will certainly attend12:07
xivulon_only there last 2 days :(12:08
xivulon_ogra I would think though that grub4dos should also work well for you12:10
xivulon_and possibly even grub212:10
ograxivulon_, you mean you will be in prague for the last two days ?12:10
ogragrub2 would be the way to go imho, but its not clear that will be ready in time for intrepid yet i think12:11
xivulon_ogra yes12:11
ograwell, lets see that we get the schedule adapted for this :) and at least have a session about it in the last two days then :)12:12
xivulon_that would be nice, thanks12:13
ograsince we'll run into probs with archive size by adding a full usb image my idea was to have a script on the liveCD that builds you one so you can easily generate a liveimage with ubiqiity on the fly fom the iso12:14
ograd-i already supports USB keys with some easy fiddling that just needs some improvement12:15
xivulon_ogra, in early wubi days, I had this approach of using a LiveCD as is (squashfs) but replacing some files therein at runtime12:19
xivulon_the hooks are still there and it is well possible to do so12:19
ograwell, if you have unionfs on top, there is no prob to use three directories ;)12:20
xivulon_yes, I was using unionfs, to override default files, this is how I added loopfile support to the installer in 7.0412:21
ograwhat i do for the installer is simply using the squashfs as is in any case, have an ext3.img where i do my installer script specific adjustments and then in the end have both of these redonly merged with a tmpfs12:21
xivulon_I did something similar squashfs (ro) + tmpfs (rw) merged via unionfs, and then copying over the files from a folder (this spares me the trouble of having to create an ext3.img).12:22
ograthe installer dumps the squashfs in place and makes adjustments with mounted /cow in the target (the classmate keeps the readonly image, something you likely dont want for normal installs)12:22
xivulon_I think eee has a similar approach internally, ro fs + rw fs via unionfs12:24
ogralikely12:24
ograeven the eee has 4G12:24
ograthat would fit a scaled down normal install12:25
ogra(classmate has 2G in the smallest setup)12:25
ogra(and i have to squeeze 3G in there :) )12:25
xivulon_heh12:29
xivulon_well in fact I have to rectify my previous statements, in 7.04 even if support for livecd/squashfs + unionfs was in the code, I ended up using the alternate ISO for the actual installation12:42
emgentpitti: thanks for you work :)12:51
pittiemgent: you're welcome :)12:52
ograoh, fun, now i get why i dont have gotten any update to the vbox modules, apprently the last kernel update even removed the ones for -16  ... weird13:00
=== xivulon_ is now known as xivulon
pittiseb128, mvo: which was the good one? ccsm or compizconfig-settings-manager? the former is still in Debian13:07
seb128pitti: ccsm13:08
seb128pitti: and simple-ccsm13:08
pittihm, so shall I remove13:08
pitticompizconfig-settings-manager | 0.7.4-0ubuntu2 | intrepid/universe | source, all13:08
pittiand sync ccsm?13:08
seb128that's a question for mvo I guess13:08
seb128ccsm has no ubuntu change?13:08
seb128they are not the same thing, they are different software13:08
pitticcsm isn't in Ubuntu13:09
mvopitti: please don't yet - debian seems to have choosen a different name for the same thing13:09
pittiE: ccsm is trying to override compizconfig-settings-manager_0.7.4-0ubuntu2 without -f/--force.13:09
mvo(oh well)13:09
mvopitti: what version does debian have?13:09
pittihttp://packages.qa.debian.org/c/ccsm.html13:09
pitti0.6.1~gitsomething13:09
mvopitti: please blacklist it for now, that is a ancient version13:09
ogra(given that both broke my setup i'D vote to remove them all :P )13:10
pittimvo: ok13:10
mvothere is a effort in debian with compiz, but they decided to go a different route, e.g. not use cdbs13:10
* pitti spots bzr-dbus from syncing13:16
pittiWTH? :-)13:16
james_wworks nicely with bzr-avahi13:17
pitti. o O { libtheschwartz-perl ??? }13:32
pittipeople don't stop inventing crazy names13:32
thomheh13:32
thomthat's a good one. thank the livejournal people13:32
=== BenC__ is now known as BenC
=== ryu2 is now known as ryu
ograpitti, did the glib fix for not showing inaccessible mounts work for you in your ltsp tests ? even though i got confirmation from users i still see the issue in virtualbox14:12
=== jw2328_ is now known as james_w
pittiogra: yes, it worked for me (didn't I write so in the bug?)14:18
ograpitti, yes, you did14:19
ograi wonder why it doesnt work for me :(14:19
pittiogra: hm, I remember testing the one with the unmount menu14:20
ograah14:20
pittiogra: I don't actually remember testing the 'hide inaccessible' one14:20
pittiwhat's the bug#?14:20
ogra21037914:21
ograbug 21037914:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 210379 in glib2.0 "should not list mounts that the user doesn't have permission to use" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21037914:21
ograyou said you can verify14:22
pittiogra: right, I didn't test that yet14:22
* pitti does now14:22
ograbut not that you did14:22
ograbu i know at least two users from #ltsp for which it fixed the issue14:22
pittithat's actually easy, login as a second user, plugin an USB drive, it shouldn't appear for the first user14:22
ograone commented14:22
ograright14:22
pittiI do know that this was the case before, and you got a nautilus window and an error14:22
ograwell, in vobox i have a floppy icon on the desktop for every user and mounting an iso as CD shows up for everyone as well14:23
pittierk14:24
pittiI did that, and now my primary user has a completely white window here14:24
pitti(nautilus)14:24
ograsounds not right14:24
pittiand another completely white dialog box14:24
ograwhat about desktop icons ?14:24
pittigot it as well14:25
ogra:(14:25
ograi wonder why the two guys saw it fixed then14:25
ograi guess we need to look into that agin14:26
ogra*again14:26
ograthanks for testing14:26
* ogra gets glib and takes a look at the patch14:26
pittiogra: well, CDs might be a different case -- are they really mounted as 700?14:26
ograyes14:26
pittibut probably not if you have it in fstab14:27
pitti?14:27
ograand all in subdirs owned by the user in /media14:27
ografstab is different14:27
ograi have /media/ogar/cdrom and /media/test/cdrom14:27
ogra*ogra14:28
ograand i have a hardy cdrom mounted on the server which is actually supposed to show on all desktops14:28
mrecis there anyone here who knows about the latest kernel in hardy and how alsa is wired with it?14:30
mrecI'm getting a general protection fault when trying to load a module built against the sources of the latest kernel14:31
mrecso I'm actually just looking for sources which are in sync with the running kernel which comes with ubuntu hardy14:31
mrecI've got quite alot bugrequests because of that14:32
mrecthe solution for me would be to wipe out that kernel and set up my own one but I'd like to avoid that if possible14:32
pittimrec: apt-get source linux linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24 should give you the two relevant source packages14:32
pittimrec: linux is more or less teh upstream kernel, and l-u-m are third-party, and backported modules14:33
pittimrec: I believe that l-u-m has newer ALSA drivers14:33
mrecpitti: alsa is the problem yes14:33
mrecit's not in sync with the kernel sources which modules are normally built against14:33
pittidpkg -L linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24-17-generic14:33
pittimrec: ^ check this output whether the affected module/driver is in l-u-m or the kernel14:34
pittimrec: (that's the kernel from -proposed, BTW; you might have -16, which is hardy final)14:34
mrecyes I have 1614:34
pittimrec: btw, if you don't use hardy-proposed, it might be worth a try; -17 has several fixes which might also solve your problem14:34
mrecit's about empiatech hybrid analog / digital TV drivers14:35
mrecis there a chance to get them included even in final now?14:35
ograpitti, oh, its 755, my bad14:35
ograwtf14:35
pittimrec: see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24, the second-latest changelog14:36
ograwho changed that? grmbl14:36
pittimrec: that pretty much sounds like your problem14:36
pittiogra: 'changed'?14:36
ograpitti, it was 70014:36
ograchecking upstream bzr14:36
mrecpitti: ya I read through that one already, do you know when this will be in upstream?14:37
mrecurgency should be high actually14:37
pittimvo: it's not an upstream problem, it was an Ubuntu packaging bug14:38
mrecI could immediatelly add around 60 devices to ubuntu if this would work14:38
pittimrec: if you mean '-updates', not 'upstream', a week or two14:38
ograpitti, do i need a separate SRU for that one digit change in ltspfs or can that just go under coverage of the existing bug (i.e. can i just upload a fixed package to proposed or do i need extra paperwork ?)14:40
mrecpitti: ah well it doesn't seem to matter it's just a source change no binary one.14:40
mrecSo I guess to fix my problem I just need those sources14:40
ograpitti, http://paste.ubuntu.com/11110/14:51
ograpitti, confirmed, that fixes it14:55
jeromegdoes anyone know the name of the application which is launched in gnome when pressing ALT + F2 ?15:14
andrew___You mean the "run application" dialogue?15:16
jeromegandrew___: yep15:16
andrew___After a quick play with `ps`, I don't think it's an application at all.15:17
jeromegandrew___: i would like to find the sources of this dialog15:17
jeromegandrew___: yeah, it must depend on the panel or something like that15:17
andrew___Makes sense.15:18
pittiogra: it should become a separate task; anyway, I just added a comment; this is all very confusing15:30
pittiandrew___: I think it's produced by the gnome panel15:30
ograpitti, the ltspfs fix is mentioned in the gnome bug15:31
jeromegandrew___: just checked, it's indeed included in the gnome panel code15:32
ograpitti, /media/$USER isnt a mointpoint ;)15:33
pittiogra: oh?15:33
ogra /media/$USER/$client_device15:33
ograthats the actual mountpoint15:34
pittiogra: ah, I see15:34
pittibut shouldn't $client_device itself be 700?15:34
ograso so get indeed E_ACCESS :)15:34
pitti(by virtue of mounting with umask=700)15:34
ograhmm15:34
pittiogra: either way, I wonder why this change works for you, but not here15:34
ogradid you patch lbmount ?15:35
ograsbalneav, !15:35
sbalneavMorning!15:35
ograyoure alive :)15:35
sbalneav:)15:36
pittihey sbalneav15:36
sbalneavHey pitti15:36
ograpitti, lbmount creates the /media/$UID dir (if nonexeisting) on plug and removes it (if empty), i doubt just changing permissions will be a proper way of reproducing15:38
ograthe devices are all mounted 75515:39
ograwith user=$USER15:39
pittiogra: ok, if you actually *want* the devices to be umask=022, then I see why you need to chmod 700 the parent dir15:42
pittiogra: (in Ubuntu proper we mount devices with umask 077 by default)15:43
pittiogra: I am just saying that currently nautilus still tries to open a window for inaccessible devices for me15:43
ograpitti, i wonder why they appear as 022 :/15:43
ograit will only not open them if they are in a subdir15:44
ogradavidz refused to do it for all devices15:44
pittiogra: you mean it only checks /media/foo/bar, not /media/bar?15:47
pittiwhy on earth??15:47
ograright15:47
ograread the upstream bug15:47
ograits silly but no way to fix it if its true15:47
* pitti sends a rant to the upstream bug15:48
ograseems gnome-vfs was to hacked up to fail on hanging mounts gvfs is shiny and beautiful and the glossy shoeshine but will hang on E_ACCESS on stale nfsmount15:48
ograthats what the current tenor is apparently15:49
pittiogra: replied upstream and in the ubuntu bug15:53
ograpitti, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltspfs/ltspfs-trunk/revision?start_revid=wtogami%40redhat.com-20080428222323-en6gyfai5fzwdz8k&filter_file_id=lbmount.c-20060916234153-8xltobgv2a2xtqy1-315:55
ograpitti, explanation about the choice of 75015:55
ograeven though they didnt seem to take 0700 into account at all15:55
pittiogra: what's the group of those directories?15:56
ogralets see15:56
ograah, thanks for asking ... that was the missing bit, the dirs are root.$USER and 75015:57
pittiogra: weird15:57
pittiwell, if they are managed by a root process, it's ok15:57
ograno, bmount is suid root, remeber15:57
ograall fine that way15:57
ogra*lbmount15:57
pittiyeah, I said 'weird', not 'wrong' :)15:57
* pitti hugs ogra15:57
ogra:)15:58
pittiogra: so, I don't mind that ltspfs change, but I'd still like to see gvfs be fixed properly15:58
pittithe current behaviour sucks for multiple users15:58
ograpitti, your suggestion on the bug wont help ltspfs15:59
ograthey are no local devices15:59
pittiogra: right15:59
ograso that still needs special casing16:00
pittiogra: if you want the devices to be umask=022, it won't help either16:00
pittiogra: right, I agree16:00
hwildeanybody know why the story of why xmms was dropped ?16:00
pittihwilde: it's dead16:00
ion_And it was starting to stink.16:00
pittiand it had long-standing security issues nobody cared about16:00
ograimho gio should have a comparison list for filesystems and their capabilities anyway though16:01
ograand act accordingly16:01
=== jwendell is now known as jwendell|lunch
hwildeso is there a lightweight way to play shoutcast streams (without totem and the visualization) ?16:01
* cody-somerville wonders why synergyc performs so horribly in Hardy but not Gutsy. :/16:02
* ion_ typically uses mplayer-nogui, assuming shoutcast streams are just streaming MP3s.16:02
hwildeion_,  it's a url stream playlist   http://www.shoutcast.com/sbin/shoutcast-playlist.pls?rn=2916&file=filename.pls16:03
hwildeI just like the winamp look and feel of xmms :/16:04
pittiogra: processed (please upload to intrepid, too)16:04
ograpitti, debians ltspfs will have the fixes16:04
ograi'm starting t switch to syncs with the ltsp stuff where possible16:05
ograi just havent decided on ldm yet, thats ahy ltspfs still sits on mom16:05
ogra*why16:05
* davidm is back (gone 17:37:19)16:25
ion_davidm: Thanks for the info!16:26
jdavies!away > davidm16:26
hwildeKeybuk, iftab replaced by udev now?? :/16:37
Keybukhwilde: no16:37
Keybukiftab replaced by udev A LONG TIME AGO ;-)16:37
hwildeheh16:37
ion_:-)16:37
hwildeare there a set of tools I could be using to make an image that can be ported to multiple machines?16:38
ion_!away > ion_16:38
hwildenow I have to change UUIDs for the harddrives and MAC addresses in udev16:38
hwildehow do oem people build images to clone?16:39
andrew___hwilde: Have you tried asking in #ubuntu?16:43
andrew___My understanding is that they're better with support type stuff.16:43
=== danielm_ is now known as danielm
dholbachhwilde: maybe http://bethesignal.org/blog/2008/04/16/this-is-progress-iftab-vs-udev/ helps16:45
hwilde#ubuntu is just a bunch of noobs asking each other noobish questions... I don't even get responses there16:48
andrew___Fair enough, shows what I know :)16:48
hwildehehe16:49
hwildeI was not so much asking for support, but more asking how I might develop an image that could be cloned to multiple machines... so I thought maybe devel could help :)16:50
Ngisn't the correct way not to use images, but to use pre-seed installs, so that information is generated correctly?16:50
* hwilde writes down new vocabulary word "pre-seed installs" 16:50
hwildeNg, any link or resource about this?16:51
Keybukdholbach: typical jdub sillyness16:52
hwildeKeybuk, can't I just delete that file and trigger whatever builds that during the initial install and have it generate with the correct mac ?16:53
Keybukyes16:54
hwildecan you replace "whaver" in that sentence with what I should be looking for :)16:55
hungerIs it save to remove the gcc4.2 stuff when upgrading from hardy to intrepid?17:00
hungerWhat about the perl-holdback? I guess I need to wait for all the perl stuff in the build queue to get done?17:00
hwildeKeybuk, udevinfo -a -n eth0    doesn't work... how do I get it17:01
Keybukinterfaces don't have devices17:02
Keybukudevinfo -a -p /class/net/eth017:02
cjwatsonhunger: if you aren't able to work out the answers to those questions, please don't run intrepid yet17:03
hwildeKeybuk,  do you think its safe to take out the MACs and use DRIVERS=="e100" for eth0 and DRIVERS=="ath_pci" for ath0   http://pastebin.com/m770185db17:07
hungercjwatson: Add updates to hardy then so that I don't need to suffer from my package addiction ;-)17:08
Amaranth!amaranth17:08
ubottuStabbity stab17:08
hungercjwatson: Withdrawal sympthoms have set in;-)17:09
=== Shely_ is now known as Shely
cjwatsonhunger: I'm sorry, but this is still not the place to ask basic questions about how to deal with routine package upgrades in a development release, even if you think our update standards are wrong.17:10
cjwatsonhunger: if you upgrade through intrepid and don't have the ability to deal with this sort of thing, then your system is almost guaranteed to break beyond your ability to fix it17:10
hungercjwatson: I'll manage, no worries:-)17:11
hungercjwatson: I've been doing this since before breezy. I just don't know whether gcc 4.2 or 4.3 is the default nowadays.17:11
Keybukhwilde: I would just delete the file and let it be generated automatically17:12
Keybukthere's zero point writing that by hand17:12
hwildeKeybuk, I don't know how to do that17:12
hwildeKeybuk, I image the disks using ghost17:12
hungercjwatson: So far I have not seen that documented... but that probably is my own problem since I hate to use LP:-)17:12
Keybukhwilde: you don't know how to delete files?17:12
hwildeKeybuk, funny... after I delete it, what would regenerate it with the correct macs ?17:12
Keybukautomatic stuff17:13
hwilde!find gcc intrepid | hunger17:13
ubottuhunger: Found: gcc, gcc-4.1, gcc-4.1-base, gcc-4.1-doc, gcc-4.1-multilib (and 35 others)17:13
cjwatsonhwilde: so, do you think that was helpful ...?17:13
hwildemaybe if it displayed the other 3517:13
hungerhwilde: Thanks, but I do have the package list.17:13
cjwatsonhunger: consider for example 'apt-cache show gcc'17:13
hwildeKeybuk, seriously?  the udev rules will just rebuild themselves on the next reboot ?17:14
Keybukyes17:14
hwildewow17:15
hungercjwatson: Thanks. So not having cpp-4.2 deinstalled is a oversight and will be fixed at some point.17:16
cjwatsonhunger: why would we require the old compiler to be deinstalled?17:16
cjwatsonthat would be inconvenient for many people17:16
cjwatsonthe different compiler versions don't conflict17:16
hwildethat statement would be funny out of context17:17
cjwatsonif you've been doing this since breezy, you'll have seen this before17:17
hungercjwatson: I know. But in this system cpp is dragged in as a dependency, so it should get deinstalled.17:17
hungercjwatson: Ah, found it. libqt4-dev still depends on it indirectly:-) So I can indeed remove it. Thanks.17:19
hwildeKeybuk, can that rebuild be triggered without a reboot ?17:19
hungerhwilde: Remove the card or its driver.17:20
Keybukhwilde: yes, but if you don't know how, you don't want to do it17:20
hwildeKeybuk, heh thats what i thought17:20
hwildevery cool tho17:20
=== gnomefre2k is now known as gnomefreak
Keybukit'll generate it exactly the same as the one you just deleted, after all17:20
hwildenow if grub can just do the same I can delete the menu.lst :)17:20
hwildeKeybuk, no I can delete /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules from the image, and first reboot on the clone'd machine it will regenerate with the correct macs17:21
Keybukright17:22
hwildethat is freaking awesome17:22
=== jwendell|lunch is now known as jwendell
hwildeonly thing left is the UUIDs in fstab and grub.   am I losing anything by replacing the UUID with generic /dev/sda1 so it can be cloned to another machine?17:24
cjwatson/dev/sda1 isn't generic17:24
cjwatsonthere are still systems on which it will be /dev/hda117:24
cjwatsonif you don't care about that, then you aren't losing anything17:24
hwildenot on mine, they're all the same17:24
hwildethe older one is hda1 tho you're right17:25
hwildeif there's no benefit then why complicate things with UUIDs ?17:26
cjwatsonthere is a benefit17:30
cjwatson17:24 <cjwatson> there are still systems on which it will be /dev/hda117:30
cjwatsonI didn't mean purely older systems17:31
cjwatsonand also it made the transition vaguely sane17:31
hwildeahh I see17:32
Amaranthat install we can see that hda1 is / and hda6 is /home but if at upgrade time those change to sda1 and sda6 we have no way of knowing17:33
hwildeyeah17:33
Amaranththey might have changed to sdb because maybe you already had an sda, etc17:33
hwildethat makes sense17:33
hwildebut I can't clone UUIDs between systems, and /dev/sda1 works fine, so i'll just go with that17:34
Amaranthsure, in your case you know what your hardware is and can take such shortcuts17:34
jdonghwilde: I think the UU part of UUID makes that a bad idea.17:35
jdong:D17:35
cjwatsonwe know UUIDs are a bit unwieldy, but unfortunately they remain (AFAIK) the best solution to the problem at hand17:35
jdongoh nvm17:35
jdongmisread your sentence17:35
hwildesweeheh17:35
jdongthought you said you were going to clone the UUID from another system17:35
hwildeI wish17:35
Keybukif you insert a second drive, it may become sda117:37
Keybukwith your original sda1 now sdb117:37
Keybukand *boom* she vill not boot17:37
hwildeseriously?17:37
Keybukseriously17:38
hwildewhy wouldn't the new one have the new name17:38
Keybukbetter question17:38
Keybukwhy _would_ it?17:38
jdonghwilde: because there's no guaranteed order of initialization17:38
jdonghwilde: even on the same system drives could come up in somewhat nondeterministic order17:38
jdongI had one system with 5 drives where 2 of them would consistently swap block device names every boot17:38
hwildeso how does Dell do it?  They type in the unique UUID on every system??17:39
KeybukI would imagine that every Dell computer has the same root filesystem UUID17:39
Keybuksince it's a cloned image17:39
Keybuk(but maybe not, since that would lead to other problems)17:39
jdongKeybuk: I'd expect them to have a smarter way of generating them?17:40
jdong(I hope)17:40
Keybukindeed17:40
hwildethere must be oem tools to handle this...  I want them17:40
Keybukhwilde: oem-config17:40
Keybukthe installer has its own oem mode17:40
jdongit's not hard to programmatically get the UUID of a disk and replace placeholders in fstab/menu.lst with it17:40
cjwatsonoem-config doesn't handle UUIDs, though it does have hooks into which you can drop your own scripts to do that kind of thing17:40
hwildejdong, it is if the system won't boot.17:41
Keybukwhy wouldn't it boot?17:41
jdonghwilde: presumably it's done by the installer17:41
jdongas the last step of installation17:41
cjwatsonjdong: he's ghosting an image17:41
jdongcjwatson: ah.17:41
Keybukghosting an image copies the filesystem exactly, right?17:41
hwildeyeah if I was going to go through the installer everytime this wouldn't be an issue17:42
hwildeyes it copies bit by bit the entire flashcard17:42
cjwatsonfile-by-file, or at the filesystem level?17:42
jdongI'm guessing binary?17:42
jdong(at the file system level)17:42
Keybukhwilde: so what's the problem with UUIDs?17:42
cjwatsonhwilde: you may be missing the information that UUIDs are associated with a filesystem, not with the hardware17:43
hwildethey are not unique ?17:43
jdonghwilde: not if you clone them17:43
cjwatsonthey are unique to the filesystem17:43
Keybukhwilde: if you've bit-by-bit duplicated the filesystem17:43
jdonghwilde: the UUId is a field in the superblock17:43
Keybukyou would have duplicated the UUID too17:43
jdonghwilde: if you do a binary copy it duplicates the UUID17:43
mjg59hwilde: Didn't we have this conversation last week?17:43
hwildeI am struggling to remember said conversation, or the reason why UUIDs allegedly did not work...  i'll give it a shot17:45
Keybukare you sure you'll be able to support the systems you're cloning?17:46
hwildenah we have a support department for that17:46
hwilde:)17:46
jdong...17:47
andrew___I'm way out of my depth here, but is this something that LVM could help with?17:47
jdongI don't think LVMs are any easier to boot ;-)17:47
Keybukandrew___: same problem17:48
andrew___If UUIDs on normal drives are somehow hardware-specific, LVM UUIDs can't be.17:48
Keybukthe filesystem in the LVM has a UUID17:48
Keybukthe LVM PV has a UUID17:48
hwildeit sounds like everyone says to just use the UUIDs, and I can't remember why we aren't, so i'll try it17:48
Keybukand the drive the PV is on would still change names17:48
hwildewhere they never unique ?17:48
hwildelike back in 6.06 ?17:48
Keybukhwilde: *wah*wah*scary*UUID*17:48
Keybukhwilde: they are unique for each invocation of mkfs17:48
Keybukif you copy the filesystem image you make, the UUID is also copied17:48
Keybukthe UUID of every Ubuntu Live CD is identical, since we don't mkfs on each boot ;)17:49
hwildegreat then I can just clone them17:49
hwildebut... how do I find the UUID now to restore fstab and grub :)17:49
ion_UUIDFSVOUU17:49
Keybukhwilde: vol_id17:50
andrew___cjwatson: mind if I pick your brains a bit again?17:53
hwildeKeybuk, what kind of device path is it expecting?  it doesn't like sda /dev/sda sda1 /dev/sda117:53
hwildeKeybuk, nvrmind17:54
=== Shely_ is now known as Shely
cjwatsonandrew___: now is probably not the best time, I'm afraid18:14
djwon1kirkland: i hear you're trying to get a hold of me?18:16
kirklanddjwon1: hey there, i just msg'd djwong18:17
kirklanddjwon1: yeah, deneen pointed me to you about a power management driver you're working on....18:17
djwon1which one?18:18
djwon1there's two kernel drivers so far18:18
kirklanddjwon1: :-)  you tell me....18:18
djwon1ibmpex = old power meter hardware interface driver18:18
djwon1ibmaem = new (2006 onward) power meter interface driver18:18
kirklanddjwon1: ibmaem is targeted for 2.6.26?18:19
djwon1maybe.  it's in akpm's tree right now; don't know if he'll push to linus before .2618:19
djwon1alternately the hwmon maintainer might come back to life and push it to linus late in the rc cycle (he did for adt7473 in 2.6.25-rc2)18:20
kirklanddjwon1: gotcha18:21
kirklanddjwon1: is there some documentation overview you can point me to for ibmaem ?18:21
Amaranththe 2.6.26 merge window is over18:21
djwon1Amaranth: yes it is, but linus took new drivers after the 2.6.25 merge window closed, on the grounds that there weren't any regression possibilities18:23
vbabiy-laptopHey guys is there a way to manage policy kit for more then one computer remotely18:24
djwon1kirkland: yes there is, but the doc file fell off the patch :(18:24
kirklanddjwon1: ;-)  could you send something or a url my way?  kirkland@canonical.com18:24
djwon1sure18:24
kirklanddjwon1: deneen also mentioned a userspace component, written in python?18:25
kirklanddjwon1: still undergoing OSSC?18:25
djwon1who knows18:25
djwon1still wrangling with "IP concerns" or some nonsense like that18:25
kirklanddjwon1: fun, fun18:25
djwon1a year of meetings for 5 months of coding work18:25
kirklanddjwon1: is the userspace stuff necessary for the driver to do any good?18:26
djwon1tis not required18:26
kirklanddjwon1: can you tell me briefly what ibmaem does by itself then?18:27
djwon1reads air temperature/energy use registers from the BMC18:27
kirklanddjwon1: and logs them /proc or /sys?18:28
djwon1no logic involved, just simple ipmi commands18:28
djwon1and exports them via sysfs18:28
kirklanddjwon1: and the userspace code does something smart with cpu freq scaling based on that data in sysfs?18:28
djwon1the userspace program figures out correlations between cpufreq steps and power consumption so that you can set a power budget and constrain the system18:28
djwon1if you only care about _energy_ then it's usually best to run the system at full speed and then fall asleep, of course :)18:29
kirklanddjwon1: okay, cool.  well let me know when it makes it into Linus' kernel, and when the userspace stuff comes available.  i can help with the packaging, and getting the module build flag turned on.18:32
djwon1ok18:33
bigoninfinity: hi are you around?18:33
djwon1kirkland: the "old" ibmpex module seems to be turned on already in hardy18:38
kirklanddjwon1: yeah, I saw that18:39
djwon1old is a bit of a misnomer since we only stopped shipping systems with that interface a month or two ago18:39
kirklanddjwon1: when i saw that, i figured Deneen must have been talking about something newer18:39
kirklanddjwon1: is there a user space app necessary to make that information useful?18:40
kirklanddjwon1: or is that said code in the OSSC black hole?18:40
djwon1ibmpex is monitor-only, so lm-sensors 3.0 can pretty-print the readings18:40
djwon1er.. 3.0.218:41
kirklanddjwon1: gotcha.  i'm familiar with lm-sensors18:41
kirklanddjwon1: will lm-sensors be able to read ibmaem data, or will it need to be enhanced to do so?18:42
djwon1no enhancements to lm-sensors needed18:42
djwon1except for the parts that make it read power/energy sensors, which is part of the 3.0.2 release18:43
djwon1(if they've even released that yet)18:43
kirklanddjwon1: gotcha.  hardy ships lm-sensors-3.0.0-4ubuntu118:43
kirklanddjwon1: your new userspace code, are you seeking to contribute it to lm-sensors, or somewhere else?18:44
djwon1wishing i'd just contributed it to lm-sensors18:45
kirklanddjwon1: always easier to push to an existing project :-P18:46
djwon1someone got wind of it and said "This would be great to release on IBM's web site"18:46
djwon1*bam* legal approval hell18:46
kirklanddjwon1: my experience was a) write whitepapers and put those on ibm's website (developerWorks), b) write code and put it were it belongs, in properly managed/packaged open source projects ;-)18:47
djwon1hmm18:48
djwon1i might have an old tarball on kernel.org still18:48
djwon1nope, gone.18:51
djwon1sadly, the blueprint route is the fastest approach to getting it out18:52
djwon1though allegedly it's shipping in the idataplex18:52
* ogra giggles 18:54
* ogra giggles even loder 18:54
ogra*louder18:54
AmaranthOk, ogra finally had a mental breakdown.18:55
=== Shely_ is now known as Shely
ograopensuse uses my configure-X.sh script from ltsp as default way to configure X on their liveCD18:55
Amaranthhrm18:56
ogra(configure-x.sh is a very hackish sed script that just replaces vlues in the dump of X --configure output, nothing i'D use outside of ltsp)18:56
Amaranthyeah18:56
Amaranththat's....wow18:56
ograyeah18:56
ogra" it just seems faster than our sax2 tool, so for trial Beta3 live CDs are now using it"18:58
compbrainAnyone know the magic incantation in debian/control for a package to depend on libc6 used to build it?19:04
cjwatsoncompbrain: ${shlibs:Depends}19:10
cjwatsonunless you actually *mean* the version of libc6 used to build it, rather than the usual answer of the version of libc6 that will satisfy its symbol requirements19:10
compbraincjwatson: That was the one, thanks!19:14
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== nand_ is now known as nand
james_wI can't find a policykit mailing list, do they just use the hal one?20:33
james_walternatively, anyone here know how to debug why policykit isn't allowing an action? It's telling the app to acquire an authorisation to do it, when I already have said authorisation granted.20:35
=== bimberi_ is now known as bimberi
=== asac_ is now known as asac
Amaranthhow does the brainstorm site decide who is a developer?23:11
stgraberfunny, you are the second one to ask that today :)23:12
LaserJock:-)23:12
stgraberso, basically we (someone from the QA team) set you as Developer23:13
AmaranthWho is the QA team? :)23:13
AmaranthYou, I guess23:13
stgraberCanonical's QA Team + nand + me23:13
Amaranthalright then, can you set me as a developer?23:14
Amaranthdo you need my #?23:14
stgraberdone23:15
AmaranthOh, thanks23:15
stgrabernp23:15
=== asac_ is now known as asac

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