[00:06] AtomicSpark: you mean ".local"? [00:07] sounds like avahi at work? [00:07] which is unlikely to work for mail.... [00:19] nealmcb, yes. i think it only asked me when i manually set up ip settings. i missed it and it used dhcp. [00:20] also we use google aps for our email service. is there a way to set up the mail server to just send messages through that? i believe i did this before with exchange. [00:57] yup it's the router. heh. it actully works better if everything is dhcp and then i set the server's addy with static dhcp. then the router has the hostname. [00:57] mm tomatos [00:58] also i can set the "domain" on the fly ;) [01:30] New bug: #228460 in nagios2 (universe) "/etc/init.d/nagios2 reload kills nagios" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/228460 [01:31] yay? [01:32] duh? [01:32] lols with the unix passwd sync for samba, it didn't make me set the smbpasswd for one user but it did the other. [01:32] funny indeed [01:44] does the dhcpd that ships with ubuntu support ldap? [02:01] docta_v, i'm sure there is a way to configure it. not sure what you mean by support ldap. [02:10] zul: you may wanna check https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/quagga/+bug/176015 [02:10] Launchpad bug 176015 in quagga "BGP MD5 support regression" [Undecided,Fix committed] [02:11] zul: there seems to be a regression there. [03:00] jdstrand: you had some comments re bind9? [03:00] from a meeting today? [03:00] you still around? [03:14] Can someone look at my error i get in syslog http://pastebin.com/d3d4c0f1c ,trying to start bind [03:16] can't get bind to start it always says [fail] [03:17] Navop: looks like permission problem [03:18] who owns the file /var/lib/named/etc/bind/named.conf? what are the permissions? [03:18] I followed the steps in "The perfect server" found on page 4 [03:19] right hear http://howtoforge.com/perfect-server-ubuntu8.04-lts-p4 [03:19] Navop: i don't know what you are refering to, but i can see the error, you don't have permissions correct on that file [03:19] or a parent directory has permissions wrong [03:19] follow link, go to dns server [03:19] i don't need to read those instruction to tell you what your problem is [03:20] new at this, sorry [03:22] you have a permission problem, so you need to figure out why named can't read that file [03:23] can sysklogd output to an arbitrary program on its stdin ? [03:23] is there a patch of some sort so that ubuntu server will take advantage of more than 2 cores to the fullest? on htop proc1 is 100% and 2,3,4 are all 1-20% [03:24] jiqiren: will look at the step one at a time and figure out where i went wrong [03:25] Navop: is there a "bind" user on your server? [03:28] edited file bind9 so it will run as the unpriviledge user bind, chrooted /var/lib/named [03:37] jiqiren: just re-booted system works fine [03:50] Why is it in Open Office Calc that when I try to open a file via sftp, I am asked for my password a couple of times and then get a "General Internet Error"? Is it not possible to work on a file remotely via sftp? [04:04] hello [04:34] elapsed time - 16 seconds.... === RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAx [04:40] how can I make more lines of text fit on the screen when in cli mode? [04:41] I get this shiny, new, expensive monitor, and it looks like i'm in 230x320 [04:58] hotmonkeyluv: like on a virtual console? [04:58] no, like when you log in [05:21] ok, looking for some advice here: i have a pc-refurbishing-with-ubuntu hobby (nonprofit/charity; just me for now) and need an accounting and inventory module/program [05:22] was using sql-ledger, but it's a very dangerous program...what i can see as available as a subsitute is tinyerp or egroupware, both of which are very large programs/suites, for large organizations [05:22] does anyone have experience with these, or a suggestion for something else to install on my ubuntu servers? [05:23] How is sql-ledger dangerous? [05:23] you're allowed to delete things, and loa and behold, when you do, functions like 'backup' don't work anymore [05:24] I see. I haven't used either of those alternative solutions you mentioned about but Postbooks is another one to add to your list. [05:24] worked days to get it installed with very sparse documentation, had a whole inventory setup, and bang! couldn't backup [05:24] Postbooks? [05:25] not in synaptic i see [05:25] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postbooks [05:26] I haven't used that either, just heard mention of it at the last conference I was at. [05:26] sql-ledger should be removed from the repositories i think...one developer who wants to keep documentation poor and secrutiy holes present so people run into trouble, and pay him for support/documentation [05:28] hads: what type of conference? [05:28] linux.conf.au [05:28] i'm looking around on their site now...ahh, i see [05:30] ledgersmb is a fork of sql-ledger (both Canadian, like me) born out of a desire to improve documentation and security issues of sql-ledger, very similar still, but quite frankly, so similar i'm now scared off [05:31] and their site says...download deb package from sourceforge'....but there is no deb package [05:31] doesn't inspire one with confidence [05:33] dennister: you are either going to pay with your labor - or buy some kind of commercial software, personally I'd just buy Quickbooks or pay into one of those online accounting packages [05:34] Quickbooks? They have a Linux version now? [05:35] hads: of course not! [05:35] That's an odd recommendation in this channel then :) [05:35] jiqiren: well i paid with my labour re sql-ledger...i'm retired now with my disabilities, so do have time [05:37] dennister: I keep accounts for a private organization myself with very very low budget. I use pen, paper, and filing cabinet. [05:37] I just want something more solid, and something where i can export data if possible, instead of beign stuck with buggy, unusable software that i can't even backup...quickbooks makes you pay$ just to access your own data [05:38] jiqiren: are you an accountant? [05:38] dennister: I'm a dba [05:38] dennister: You might get better help in #ubuntu since it's more of a desktop type question. [05:39] ahhhhhh...dba's are similar to accountants in some ways...i used to work in HR :-) [05:40] hads: yes, i was in here earlier getting some excellent assistance with samba in hardy, and forgot to log out :) [05:41] jiqiren: b4 i go...i'm a big admirerer of pen & paper people...you really have to know what you're doing then...unfortunately, I can't read my own writing anymore :-) [05:41] g'night all [06:26] hey everone [06:28] hello everyone [07:23] hey, im running ubuntu server, i heard the desktop version can automaticly recognize my printer, but how do i get it to work from the server? (with samba as the obvious next step) [07:50] Help, I am at a remote location from my server, and it seems to somehow have gone down. [07:50] I can't SSH to it or anything. [07:51] I can SSH into my router and ping the server from there however, and it seems to be up ?!?! [07:51] But I cannot SSH or telnet into the server itself from any port, anywhere. [07:51] Any ideas? [07:52] has your server an external ip address? [07:52] No, it's behind my NAT router -- but all the ports are forwarded. [07:53] Try testing the services to see if they are responding. [07:54] well,.. probably not 100% correctly if you can connect from the router and not from the external location it's most likely a nat problem. [07:54] hads: what exactly do you mean by "testing" and "services" ? [07:54] HS-L: No, I said I can ping the server from the router, I can't connect to anything. [07:54] telnetting to other services than ssh [07:54] Well, what does your server do? HTTP? SMTP? [07:54] hads: It does a lot. [07:54] OK [07:55] telnet serveraddress portnumber_service [07:55] see if it responds [07:55] hads: I already said, I can't access it on any port from anywhere [07:55] OK then. [07:56] Not even from the router. [07:56] moin [07:57] The ONLY thing it is responding to is ping (from my router)... [07:58] and are you sure that your server has that ip address? [07:58] yes [07:58] it's statically assigned to 192.168.1.10 [08:03] please help, I need to get my server back online [08:03] People are trying, attitude helps a lot. [08:04] hmm? [08:04] stiv2k_: sounds like some problem in your router [08:04] stiv2k_: may be port forwarding rules are missing [08:04] Ali_ix: Then why can't I telnet to the server from the router? [08:04] stiv2k_: can you telnet to services fromyour router? [08:05] Ali_ix: No. [08:05] Ali_ix: I tried rebooting the router remotely... no difference. [08:05] stiv2k_: so you may blocked all ports in server it self (iptables rules) [08:06] stiv2k_: Is noone around that can go and see what's on the console? [08:06] soren: nope [08:06] nmap the server see if it's offering any services, if not it may have hung. [08:06] stiv2k_: any KVM like system available? [08:06] Ali_ix: I don't think it has iptables... though i'm not sure [08:06] stiv2k_: And noone can reboot it? [08:06] nope [08:06] Wel, then you're screwed. [08:06] Ugh... shit [08:06] If you can't connect to it and noone can reset it, what's left to do? [08:06] I wont be able to go to reboot it until sunday [08:07] I just dont understand how it could have happened in the first place [08:07] stiv2k_: What's it running? [08:07] It was working fine, I was in an SSH session using irssi and streaming music [08:07] There's so many reasons. [08:07] then all of a sudden it just stopped. [08:07] soren: various services, HTTP, SMTP, IMAP, MySQL, IRC, NTP, SSH, BOINC... [08:07] stiv2k_: it is a sevrer or your home/office PC? [08:07] stiv2k_: Which OS? [08:08] ubuntu [08:08] ...breezy? [08:08] it was 8.04 but I hadn't rebooted it since about 85 days ago [08:08] so it never rebooted after the release-upgrade [08:08] Ali_ix: its a personal server in my apartment, nothing commercial. [08:09] stiv2k_: there might be some power/hw failue, the system rebooted, and endup in some boot time blocking errors, which is responding to icmp, but no services running [08:10] if you ask the right kind of people (or the wrong kind, depending on how you look at it), I'm sure you can hire someone to break into your apartment and press the reset button. Possibly steal a few things, too, but hey... [08:10] Or heat, or bad memory, or... [08:10] Ugh [08:10] that seems so implausible [08:10] heh [08:10] soren: nice soloution :) [08:10] it's been running perfectly for over 1 year now [08:10] stiv2k_: What's implausible? [08:11] impossible may be! [08:11] soren: how do hardware failures just happen like that [08:11] Hahah! [08:11] How else do you think it happens? [08:11] By definition. [08:11] I dont know. [08:11] dammit, I really need to access it [08:11] Do you think it sends you a letter that it'll fail sometime within the next few weeks, so you'd better replace something? [08:11] soren: I wish. [08:11] * hads giggles [08:11] stiv2k_: do you have any UPS or Stablizer there? [08:12] Ali_ix: No UPS. [08:12] It might just have kernel paniced. [08:12] stiv2k_: so power failure is possible [08:12] soren: I hope so... I wish there was a way to reset the damn thing. [08:12] Ali_ix: yes but it responds to ICMP PING [08:12] stiv2k_: 1-800-BURGLAR [08:12] Ali_ix: so I'd like to rule it out [08:13] stiv2k_: if it is so important you can user advanced server equipments, like APC panels or some KVM systems [08:13] Ali_ix: how would KVM work remotely? [08:13] IP [08:13] stiv2k_: like which most Datacenters provide for servers [08:13] Ali_ix: you mean some kind of IPMI card? [08:14] An IP addressable KVM or the likes. [08:14] HS-L: i just worked with such things remotely, dont know actually teh hardware [08:16] ah ok, in my servers i've got ipmi cards, that's sort of a ehhhh.. console via IP, but it can reset the power too [08:16] more info: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-freebsd-ipmi-login-session.html [08:17] http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/kvm-over-ip.html [08:21] kvm over IP eh? [08:22] I've never seen that in action [08:22] it's been 2 years since I worked in a datacenter though [08:22] hmm how do i setup CUPS on ubuntu server? [08:23] or is that not what i need to get my HP all in one officejet working? [08:23] fotoflo: which model? [08:23] 5608 [08:24] hpijs [08:24] fotoflo: did you tried hplip drivers? [08:24] if it's supported and USB, you should be able to just plug it in and it will be there for you to use [08:24] on ubuntu server? [08:24] if that's not happening for you, then there's more work to be done [08:24] oh [08:24] apt-get install cupsys non? [08:25] I was thinking of Ubuntu Desktop [08:25] got mixed up there [08:25] apt-get install cupsys ? [08:25] yeah [08:25] Temporary failure resolving 'cn.archive.ubuntu.com' [08:25] :( [08:25] wtf? [08:25] China? [08:26] what would be really neat is a KVM device that inlines with ethernet, for home and SOHO use [08:26] ok it resolved [08:26] odd [08:27] ok, once cups is installed, then it should automaticly recoginze my printer?\ [08:27] do i need HPLIP? [08:27] Get:2 http://security.ubuntu.com dapper-security/main cupsys 1.2.2-0ubuntu0.6.06.9 [2253kB] [08:27] Err http://cn.archive.ubuntu.com dapper/main libpaper1 1.1.14ubuntu8 [08:27] Temporary failure resolving 'cn.archive.ubuntu.com' [08:27] wierd, cn.archive seems to be going up and down [08:48] ok, ive got cups installed, hwo do i test my printer? [08:48] how do i know if it recognized it? [08:52] ok, ive got cups installed, how can i test my printer? [08:54] try http://localhost:631/ [08:58] hey, it works [08:58] unfortuatly i only have lynx on that machine... [08:58] and its not accepting connections from outside [09:09] fotoflo: echo "Hi I am a test" | lp -dPrinterName [09:09] I think? [09:12] phil: any idea how i can get that web thing to accept connections from a specified IP? [09:12] /etc/cups/somethingorother [09:12] there's a series of permit/deny lines [09:13] it may or may not be listening on lo0, would check /etc/default/cupsys or something too [09:13] those are generic ideas for debian based installs [09:13] I have *no* idea about what Ubuntu does [09:13] sorry, "lo" versus "eth0" not "lo0" [09:14] . /etc/default/cupsys [09:14] is empty [09:14] probably okay then [09:14] theres a [09:15] . /etc/cups/cups.d/ports.conf with a Listen localhost:631 [09:15] line [09:16] i added Listen 192.168.0.18:631 [09:16] and i can get in, but only to the first page [09:17] and there is serious latency [09:17] i get a 403 if i try anything but the index\ [09:18] Administrative commands are disabled in the web interface for security reasons. Please use the GNOME CUPS manager (System > Administration > Printing). /usr/share/doc/cupsys/README.Debian.gz describes the details and how to reenable it again. [09:18] looking good [09:22] hmm, followed the advice (added cups to the list of users able to read the group shadow) and restarted cups still forbidden [09:30] fotoflo: is 192.168.0.18 your servers ip or is it the client from which you want to access? [09:30] server ip [09:31] Have you ever seen a situation where an email that is being redirected with a .forward into a script terminates midway through the delivery. I can see the message arriving, I can see the script processing about 25%, then I see the message delivered and the connection from the sender closing. The script stops and does not finish. [09:35] fotoflo: actually I never tried to make the webinterface accessible from the outside [09:35] maybe it would be easier just to setup a sshtunnel and access from localhost [09:36] ... would that work? [09:38] Some background: I'm processing incoming email with a PHP script. The mail server is postfix. It's running Hardy. If I cat an email message to the PHP script as the user who's mail this is, all works as expected. [09:39] fotoflo: you're doing it wrong. [09:39] "Listen" is where the daemon listens [09:39] it must be "Localhost" or the IP address of an interface on THAT MACHINE [09:40] per the manual page [09:40] right, the server is localhost, i used its own ip address to listen on [09:40] check around for an example of allowing /admin connections to specific IPs [09:40] what's really sad is that CUPS doesn't accepd CIDR syntax [09:41] owh: PHP has a script timeout, perhaps you're hitting that? [09:41] so you're stuck if you want to produce a subnet access to the machine [09:41] hads: According to syslog the script runs in under 1 second. [09:42] owh: Guess not then :) [09:42] Listen 192.168.0.18:631 < that IP is eth0 [09:42] hads: Well, I did start thinking if some previous administrator set it to something stupid low. [09:43] i have my system 8.04 server with raid installed in a 2 GB CF card how can i take an image of the system with out shut down as a full back up including grub [09:47] dd? [09:47] i got it to accept connections, but only with major lag and admin is forbidden [09:48] oh only lag on forbidden operatiosn [09:50] Deeps, can you please help me in exact command, i will replace the /dev/sd* to the one i have. I mean what figure to put for count .. etc [09:50] my drive is 2 GB [09:50] dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb [09:51] or dd if=/dev/sda of=/path/to/network/share/cf.dd.iso [09:52] <\sh> does anyone have experience with 2x quad core opterons on hardy or dapper? :) [09:53] Deeps, thanks [09:56] hey [09:56] anyone still here that I was talking to earlier? [11:05] lamont: no, don't need anything in particular-- just thinking of how to manage packaging for both debian and ubuntu and remembered bind9 [11:20] I can't understand why everyone seems to think using passkeys for ssh instead of passwords is such a good idea- doesn't that just mean that anyone else who gets on my laptop can ssh to any of my servers/ cat ~/.ssh and have the [11:21] key? [11:29] You encrypt you passkey.. [11:29] *your [11:30] With passwords, anyone can bruteforce their way in. With pubkey auth, only people with access to the private key can get it. [11:30] Er.. Can get in. [11:30] (that's what you get for typing while lunching) [11:39] Yeah. jords; passphrase-less keys are a bad thing. [11:45] owh: regarding initscripts, let's just post that patch to the list, rather than directly to the maintainer [11:45] kirkland: Which list? [11:45] good question.... [11:45] owh: let me find the right one [11:46] firestarter problem since i removed it , then instaled kmyfirewall. removed it. and reinstalled firestarter. http://pastebin.com/m723ea818 some apps like firefox or etherape are not runing too. help? [11:47] owh: i'm looking over http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html [11:47] owh: http://lists.debian.org/debian-lsb/ [11:47] * owh is trying to debug to a dead-line, can you please email me? [11:48] Unless you know why a php script would be terminated before completion when postfix invokes it on delivery? [11:48] owh: sure, no problem [11:48] SMTP -> postfix -> .forward -> pipe -> php://stdin -> script [11:48] owh: anything in error_log ? [11:48] No, the script just stops midway through, or stdin isn't filled with the email. [11:49] owh: change your .forward to write to a file [11:49] With tail -f /var/log/syslog and lots of php errorlog entries, I can see the email arriving, the script starting, then the email connection closing. Then that's all. I don't see the script finish. [11:49] owh: then manually cat to | script [11:50] owh: and you should be able to see the php error out [11:50] kirkland: This script needs to parse the email and make it into a .csv. [11:50] There are no php errors. I can cat the email to the script on the commandline and all works as expected. [11:50] hmm [11:50] It's like postfix kills the process. [11:50] memory problem? [11:51] Fsck, I hope not. [11:51] No, that would be very strange. This VPS was built with MySQL and a full LAMP stack. I removed MySQL altogether. [11:52] how many MB is the input email? [11:52] Its 2737 bytes. [11:53] /proc/meminfo tells me that LowFree is: 209252kB [11:55] owh: fyi, i mailed the list [11:55] At the moment there are times where even sleep(10) as the first command doesn't guarantee that the whole message has arrived. I'm really stumped. [11:55] Tah [11:55] owh: definitely not a memory problem then [11:56] I'll edit the original message and send it when I've licked this issue. [11:56] i was wondering if you were processing a 10G email or something [11:56] Nope, just an ittybitty satellite tracker message. [11:56] The script runs for less than a second. [11:57] How can I tell if postfix is really killing the script? [12:00] I'm reading about the postfix pipe command, there is a deamon_timeout, but it's set to 18000s [12:00] owh: have you checked the postfix logs? [12:00] owh: /var/log/mail.* [12:00] They appear to be identical to syslog [12:02] relay=local, delay=10, delays=0.23/0/0/10, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command: cd ~ ; ~/readmail.php) [12:02] I wonder what 0.23 means [12:03] owh: okay, sill questions... [12:03] ~ is perms 755 right? [12:03] as is readmail.php ? [12:03] and you have the php-cli installed? [12:04] all this works because running your script by hand works? [12:04] kirkland: Yeah, it's running, I can see the entry in the logs - the script is riddled with error_log() entries. [12:04] Yes [12:04] owh: so next i'd pipe it through strace [12:04] strace ~/readmail.php [12:05] strace ~/readmail.php > /tmp/out [12:05] kirkland: You mean, change the .forward? [12:05] owh: yeah, if that's the only way to reproduce the error [12:05] Hmm [12:07] * owh has just shot a message at it, it will take a mo. [12:09] That didn't work: (delivered to command: (cd ~ ; strace ~/readmail.php > ~/strace)), but there is no content or any script debug output [12:10] It could be memory. Lemmie see if I can generate some output. [12:12] kirkland: Just read your email, it looks like you already sent it, am I reading that correctly? [12:12] owh: yes [12:12] kirkland: Then my brain isn't all fuzzy just yet :) [12:12] ;-) [12:18] memory_get_usage reports 786432 bytes [12:18] * owh thinks it's running out of memory. [12:20] Hold on, thats 786kB, I've got 256Mb [12:20] lol [12:21] * owh is used to 6502 CPU's with 64K :) [12:22] Two questions: 1) How to fire up the curses GUI for configuring the network [12:23] 2) How do I know which nic is which? [12:23] 8.04 LTS server [12:26] <_ruben> 1) you dont .. 2) pull a cable and check the link status with ethtool? [12:27] 1) dpkg-reconfigure etherconf i believe [12:27] Or look at dmesg. [12:27] 2) unplug one of the cables, and check which one still has a link with ethtool / mii-tool [12:27] and/or from syslog [12:27] and/or dmesg [12:28] !show etherconf [12:28] Factoid show etherconf not found [12:28] !info etherconf [12:28] Package etherconf does not exist in hardy [12:28] heh [12:28] Deeps: Yeah, I cannot find it either. [12:29] that was the name of the debian package, it was in ubuntu too [12:30] up until edgy it seems [12:31] so ethtool -g eth0 [12:31] right? [12:31] ethtool eth0 on it's own [12:33] looks like for reconfiguring you'll have to do it manually through the interfaces file now [12:36] Thanks guys [12:36] thats a bit silly removing etherconf [12:37] I agree [12:37] I think they should have a curses gui for everything! [12:37] lol [12:37] you probably need to start to learn to code curses then :) [12:38] first I have to learn the ins and outs of command line firts [12:38] first [12:38] anyway thanks for the help, back to the grindstone [12:39] owh: http://lists.debian.org/debian-lsb/2008/05/msg00000.html [12:40] kirkland: That's the first message this month, it's a busy list - not ;) [12:40] mmm [12:51] New bug: #228489 in quagga (main) "Please sync quagga 0.99.9-6 (main) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/228489 [12:59] jdstrand: ah, ok. I have one branch for debian and one branch for ubuntu (and util-linux is a much better example than bind9, which is generally converged..) [13:00] I don't separate out subdirs into their own VCS, since historically that has just caused me to want to go postal. [13:01] I _do_ commit to debian/ and to !debian/ separately, so that merges are less painful, and cherry picking for upstream is better [13:03] lamont: cool, thanks [13:04] (and yes, util-linux upstream is git, and was what pushed me over to migrating all my packages from cvs/arch/bazaar (not bzr) to git [13:04] somewhere in 2006 or 7 [13:05] * jdstrand nods [13:12] firestarter problem since i removed it , then instaled kmyfirewall. removed it. and reinstalled firestarter. http://pastebin.com/m723ea818 some apps like firefox or etherape are not runing too. help? [13:26] firestarter problem since i removed it , then instaled kmyfirewall. removed it. and reinstalled firestarter. http://pastebin.com/m723ea818 some apps like firefox or etherape are not runing too. help? [13:30] flotishu_: do you have the /etc/firestarter dir? [13:30] sommer i have installed fs now . yes i have the dir [13:31] flotishu_: and the /etc/firestarter/inbound/outbound subdirs? [13:31] no [13:31] $ sudo dpkg -l firestarter [13:31] Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold [13:31] | Status=Not/Installed/Config-f/Unpacked/Failed-cfg/Half-inst/t-aWait/T-pend [13:31] |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) [13:31] - [13:31] cd /etc/firestarter [13:31] user1@computer1:/etc/firestarter$ ls [13:31] non-routables [13:32] flotishu_: try sudo apt-get install firestarter again [13:33] is already installed [13:37] apt-get --purge remove firestarter; apt-get install firestarter [13:39] flotishu_: ^^ ya.... thanks Deeps [13:40] hm [13:40] nop. same problem [13:41] it happend after i installed kmyfirewall. [14:00] firestarter problem since i removed it , then instaled kmyfirewall. removed it. and reinstalled firestarter. http://pastebin.com/m723ea818 some apps like firefox or etherape are not runing too. help? [14:05] <\sh> sudo iptables -L -n ; sudo iptables -F ? [14:05] <\sh> check what's in your iptables table...and flush it ... [14:09]