[00:00] <LaserJock> argg, still not working
[00:00] <no0tic> persia, can I merge criticalmass? I saw you're the last uploader
[00:02] <LaserJock> sistpoty: you built  these packages on intrepid?
[00:03] <sistpoty> LaserJock: yes
[00:03] <sistpoty> LaserJock: that is... partly... I build them using an intrepid pbuilder
[00:03] <LaserJock> k
[00:03] <sistpoty> (though I'm behind one day or so, due to the mirror)
[00:05]  * norsetto thinks he will call it a day
[00:06] <LaserJock> sbuild doesn't like them (doesn't look specific to the packages though)
[00:06] <LaserJock> I'll try with pbuilder
[00:06] <norsetto> no0tic: persia is in Japan, so he might not be on line right now
[00:07] <norsetto> g'night all
[00:07] <no0tic> norsetto, night
[00:11] <ScottK> sistpoty: Saw you core-dev application.  Good for you.  It's about time.
[00:11] <sistpoty> thanks ScottK
[00:12] <LaserJock> sistpoty: huh, works with pbuilder
[00:12] <sistpoty> :)
[00:12] <ScottK> sistpoty: You might want to point at an update to your wiki page that describes all the cool stuff you've done.  While I'm sure the MC members know a lot about it, the tech board may not.
[00:12] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if it's some sort of weirdness with intrepid right now or what
[00:13] <sistpoty> ScottK: I deliberatly didn't do this... as my rationale is basically, that I don't intend to fix main stuff (unless, it's broken, and once again core-devs did not a job as good as I expect them to do)
[00:14] <ScottK> sistpoty: OK.
[00:14] <sistpoty> (which really concerns me recently)
[00:14] <ScottK> sistpoty: You didn't ask for endorsements, but I intend to give you one.
[00:15] <sistpoty> ScottK: that would be nice. thanks! :)
[00:15] <LaserJock> sistpoty: so basically Main QA?
[00:15] <sistpoty> LaserJock: not really, I rather believe that there have been too many packages included into main, which shouldn't be there in the first place
[00:16] <ScottK> So I was at the Apple store tonight buying my wife her Mother's Day present (she has a Mac) and I think I talked the guy at the store into trying out dual booting to Ubuntu.
[00:16] <sistpoty> LaserJock: it somehow overlaps with the fact, that main packages aren't necessarily covered by canonical support
[00:16] <sistpoty> ScottK: cool, congrats :)
[00:18]  * sistpoty admits a big failure of ubuntu: I didn't manage to get the beamer to work under kde during the conference I visited this week :(
[00:18] <LaserJock> sistpoty: what kind of packages do you think shouldn't be in Main?
[00:19] <sistpoty> LaserJock: that's a tough question... let me check a few instances
[00:19] <LaserJock> sistpoty: btw, did you know the two copies of smburi.py are not the same? there is a small diff
[00:19] <ScottK> sistpoty: Laptops, projection screens, and Kubunty Hardy are problematic.  See the release notes about dual screen operations.  The best I've done so far is to hard lock the machine.
[00:21] <sistpoty> LaserJock: didn't check this actually... thanks for the note
[00:23] <sistpoty> LaserJock: for example, I guess that there's no reason for libsdl1.2 to be in main (and its rdepends). As it has many rdepends, I'm not entirely sure though. Of course there are other libs which used to live in universe and have got adapted to main later one, but shouldn't be there as well imho
[00:25] <LaserJock> sistpoty: pitti did a whole lot of work to get uneeded stuff out of Main
[00:25] <LaserJock> for hardy
[00:25] <sistpoty> LaserJock: smbury.py diff seems to be ok for me (afaict it drops "smb://" when it hits it)
[00:26] <LaserJock> sistpoty: so it's good like it is then?
[00:26] <sistpoty> LaserJock: imho yes... at least it will install then, so it's better than the current state
[00:27] <sistpoty> LaserJock: I haven't checked though, if system-config-printer-kde still finds smburi.py
[00:27] <sistpoty> (wouldn't know how to do that right now)
[00:35] <LaserJock> sistpoty: uploaded, thanks
[00:35] <sistpoty> thanks LaserJock!
[00:45] <wgrant> sistpoty: That's a failure of Kubuntu, not Ubuntu. xrandr works really, really well normally.
[00:46] <sistpoty> wgrant: most probably, yes
[00:46] <ScottK2> sistpoty: He's right.  Our KDE3 displayconfig doesn't use xrandr.
[00:47] <wgrant> Rather unfortunate that it wasn't convinced to :(
[00:47] <ScottK2> Not crashing routinely was major progress.
[00:47] <ScottK2> We did achieve that, so it's at least reasonably functional with a single screen.
[00:47] <sistpoty> it didn't help me when I needed to present s.th. on a recent conference (whith an ubuntu sticker on the laptop *g*)
[00:48] <ScottK2> We do intend to have it taken out and shot for Intrepid.
[00:48] <ScottK2> sistpoty: The release notes have some useful hints.
[00:48] <sistpoty> ScottK2: yes, of course :)
[00:48]  * sistpoty needs to go to bed now... cya
[01:09] <LaserJock> tbielawa_dinner: did you updated the FSF address in the bibus files?
[01:09] <LaserJock> *update
[01:09] <RAOF> Ok.  Why does the compiz application switcher leave my windows slightly blurred? :)
[01:31] <Laney> RAOF: I had that for a short while after Hardy released. Some update seems to have fixed it now though.
[01:32] <Laney> I worried that my eyes were going for a bit
[01:34] <pwnguin> hmm. the mythbuntu theme is pretty nice, exept for the tri-color gnome-panel
[01:36] <RAOF> Let's see how it compares to my current chocolate nodoka theme.
[01:40] <RAOF> pwnguin: It should go all the way with the dark theme.  The light-grey dropdowns from the black panel looks silly, IMO.
[01:40] <pwnguin> yea
[01:40] <pwnguin> but you can fix that
[01:41] <pwnguin> change to shiny-black ;)
[01:44] <RAOF> You know, I could learn to love Debian pink.
[01:46] <pwnguin> ...
[01:46] <pwnguin> I always thought those colors were chosen to look good on a twenty year old CGA monitor or solaris workstation or something
[01:46] <RAOF> It goes quite nicely in the mythbuntu theme with darklooks everywhere else.
[01:47] <Jazzva> pochu: ping
[01:48] <pwnguin> darklooks is too flat
[01:49] <RAOF> Agreed.
[01:49] <RAOF> Nodoka does reasonable dark themes.
[01:49] <RAOF> (Gah!  Still need to write that RFS)
[01:50] <pwnguin> nodoka?
[01:50] <RAOF> Yeah; fedora's gtk engine/theme.
[01:53] <ScottK> Any distro that picks brown as it's primary theme color really has no place to pick about other's choices.
[01:53] <pwnguin> who's picking?
[01:53] <ScottK> "I always thought those colors were chosen to look good on a twenty year old CGA monitor or solaris workstation or something" didn't sound like a compliment to me?
[01:53] <pwnguin> oh right
[01:53] <ScottK> So that would be you.
[01:54] <pwnguin> debian magenta i think is worse than orange :P
[01:54] <ScottK> Dunno.  All my desktops are a nice pretty blue color.
[01:55] <pwnguin> besides, dark orange is a fairly unique and identifying color
[01:55] <pwnguin> its usually pretty simple to pick out an ubuntu screenshot ;)
[01:55] <wgrant> I quite like our orange.
[01:55] <wgrant> It's better than OldHuman brown.
[01:55] <ScottK> It's definitely unique.  I won't argue that.
[01:56] <ScottK> superm1: You around?
[01:56] <ScottK> superm1: Never mind.  Got my derivates mixed up.
[01:57] <pwnguin> he is the mythbuntu guy, no?
[01:57] <ScottK> He is.
[01:57] <ScottK> I want an Ubuntu Studio guy.
[01:57] <pwnguin> oh. (i orginally brought up the mythbuntu theme)
[01:57] <ScottK> Right.  This is a different topic.
[02:00] <LaserJock> I like the browns
[02:01] <LaserJock> I'm not fond of the heavy blue and greens
[02:02] <pwnguin> the problem with dark themes I think is the web
[02:05] <LaserJock> pwnguin: how so?
[02:07] <ScottK> I think the problem with themes period is my teenage children come up with stuff that makes my eyes hurt.
[02:07] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:08] <LaserJock> I like dark colors
[02:08] <LaserJock> I prefer black/grey backgrounds
[02:08] <RoAkSoAx> dark colors are not good for our eyes xD :)
[02:08] <LaserJock> they aren't?
[02:08] <RAOF> LaserJock: Because the web is uniformly black-on-white, so looks outrageously bright in a dark theme?
[02:09] <LaserJock> RAOF: why would they depend on the theme?
[02:09] <RAOF> LaserJock: They don't; that's the problem.
[02:09] <LaserJock> really?
[02:09] <RAOF> When the rest of the theme is light-background, dark text, it's not a huge contrast.
[02:10] <RAOF> When the theme is dark background, light text, the black-on-white web looks insanely bright.
[02:10] <LaserJock> I guess when I switch from FF which is black-on-white to my terminal which is white-on-black it's a big change
[02:10] <LaserJock> but that doesn't really depend on the theme
[02:11] <LaserJock> the theme really only affects the window title/border
[02:15] <LaserJock> so is white-on-black or black-on-white better for your eyes?
[02:16] <RoAkSoAx> it is better to use light colors
[02:16] <pwnguin> LaserJock: like RAOF says, the rest of the desktop is fairly dark, so a huge white WWW canvas is way brighter than the rest of the screen
[02:16] <RoAkSoAx> i've had dark colored themes... and my eyes got tired more often
[02:16] <RoAkSoAx> than when using light colors
[02:17] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:17] <LaserJock> well, I guess maybe my problem is "rest of the desktop"
[02:17] <RoAkSoAx> believe me i spend almost like 16 hours a day in front of a computer :D
[02:17] <LaserJock> I run all my windows maximized
[02:17] <pwnguin> right, so when you alt tab, it's huge
[02:18] <LaserJock> so if I'm looking at FF it's all white
[02:18] <LaserJock> RoAkSoAx: as do I
[02:18] <pochu> Jazzva: pong
[02:18] <LaserJock> but I haven't figured out a good combination
[02:18] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, do you use glasses??
[02:18] <pwnguin> tab or switch virt desktops and bam, sore irises
[02:18] <LaserJock> RoAkSoAx: contacts, yeah
[02:18] <pwnguin> i coud imagine this making your eyes sore after a few hours
[02:18] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, that's why you don't feel it.. i don't use any kind of glasses
[02:18] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:19] <pwnguin> esp with the monitor as the only light source in the room
[02:19] <LaserJock> RoAkSoAx: well, my eyes are read and kill me
[02:19] <persia> sebner: No reason to restrict yourself to a MOTU for gmsh.  Any coordination is good, and if you can't get anywhere, we can also merge it next time.
[02:19] <LaserJock> I just haven't figured out how to make it better
[02:19] <persia> no0tic: If you haven't already, please feel free to merge criticalmass
[02:19] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, same as mine.. but everytime i had dark colored themes... my eyes got more tired and red
[02:19] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:19] <LaserJock> maybe I should change my terminal then
[02:21] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, the only thing i use in black*/white combination is my terminal
[02:21] <tbielawa> evening
[02:21] <Jazzva> pochu: I did a test-build of tracker, and cleaned it after... the diff between that and the original from mom shows that ./src/libtracker/tracker-client.h is removed. But, if I don't build it and clean it, the file stays there. It is auto-generated, on the other hand..
[02:21] <RoAkSoAx> and my theme is the uUbuntu default
[02:21] <LaserJock> RoAkSoAx: well, that's what I spend most of my day using
[02:21] <Jazzva> pochu: Any ideas? Is that ok?
[02:21] <LaserJock> so wouldn't I want it black-on-white?
[02:22] <pochu> Jazzva: will it be generated on build?
[02:22] <LaserJock> tbielawa: hi, did  you see my question fro a while ago?
[02:22] <Jazzva> pochu: I'm building it again, to check... I suppose it is
[02:22] <tbielawa> LaserJock: no I did not, please ask it again
[02:22] <pochu> Jazzva: if so, that's alright, yes. It shouldn't be there in the first place but that's an upstream thing and it's ok
[02:22] <LaserJock> tbielawa: did you modify all the FSF addresses?
[02:23] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, if for example you have the screen all black with white letters... wont affect
[02:23] <tbielawa> LaserJock: yes I did
[02:23] <pochu> Is there any way to know what packages build-depend on another one?
[02:23] <LaserJock> tbielawa: I'd suggest doing it as a patch
[02:23] <RoAkSoAx> but if you have a theme that has combination of black colored and maybe some light colors it will affect
[02:23] <Jazzva> pochu: Ok, thanks... I'll submit a debdiff for tracker soon.
[02:23] <pochu> something like 'apt-cache rbuilddepends <package>' would rock :)
[02:23] <LaserJock> RoAkSoAx: well, what do you mean by "theme" here?
[02:23] <pochu> Jazzva: ok, thanks!
[02:24] <Jazzva> no prob :)
[02:24] <ScottK2> pochu: grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends,Build-Depends-Indep,Depends -s Package libclamav-dev -n /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Sources
[02:24] <LaserJock> pochu: look in ubuntu-dev-tools, I seem to remember there being such a script
[02:24] <RoAkSoAx> LaserJock, let me take a screenshot :)
[02:24] <tbielawa> LaserJock: I can include the patch I generated and mailed upstream. Proper procedure would be creating a debian/patches dir and adding an action in rules?
[02:24] <ScottK2> pochu: Just put the package you're interested in where I had libclamav-dev
[02:25] <LaserJock> tbielawa: yeah, I'd suggest using dpatch for it
[02:25] <tbielawa> LaserJock: thanks for the guidance, I'll read up on dpatch
[02:26] <LaserJock> tbielawa: if you need help ping me
[02:27] <RoAk> LaserJock, this is my laptop's desktop, and is a bad combination of colors: http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1779/screenshotot5.png
[02:27] <pochu> ScottK2, LaserJock: thank you!
[02:28] <LaserJock> RoAk: ok
[02:28] <tbielawa> RoAk: teh contrast! it burns us!
[02:28] <pochu> ScottK2, LaserJock: there's /usr/bin/reverse-build-depends from ubuntu-dev-tools too :)
[02:28] <LaserJock> RoAk: I would probably do something like that
[02:28] <pochu> ScottK2: which does exactly your magic, but it's easier to remember ;)
[02:29] <RoAk> LaserJock, yeah i like dark colors too but i really hurts eyes more than having a lighter colored theme...
[02:30] <wgrant> I ran a dark theme with some custom default CSS for a while, but websites really don't like it.
[02:30] <pwnguin> RoAk: rounded edges shouldn't round on fullscreen =/
[02:30] <RoAk> pwnguin, it ain't full screen :)
[02:31] <RoAk> LaserJock, it is because of the combination of dark and light colors what affects your eyes.. it is better not to use such combination
[02:32] <RoAk> but if you use glasses... you might not feel the difference.. since i don't i do feel it =(
[02:33] <LaserJock> RoAk: here's my current screenshot:http://laserjock.us/files/snapshot1.png
[02:33] <LaserJock> sort of the opposite of yours
[02:34] <pwnguin> somewhere i have a shot where i made wip3out the default font
[02:34] <bluefoxicy> argh wine has no sound unless I kill whatever's using alsa
[02:34] <pwnguin> it looks neat in places, but irc aint one
[02:34] <wgrant> bluefoxicy: s/alsa/PulseAudio/
[02:34] <pwnguin> bluefoxicy: isn't that sorta how alsa works?
[02:34] <bluefoxicy> wgrant:  I killed pulse
[02:34] <bluefoxicy> it's still not working.
[02:34] <LaserJock> RoAk: so should I rather use white-on-black for my terminal so everything is light?
[02:35] <RoAk> LaserJock, maybe not... but i would change the white messages to a  more grey than white color...
[02:36] <RoAk> LaserJock, i also use black terminal... it does not hurt me... what it does is everything else.. as my screenshot of xchat
[02:37] <wgrant> I can't stand white terminals.
[02:38]  * tbielawa runs translucent white on black terminals
[02:38] <RoAk> wgrant, me neither
[02:39]  * pwnguin runs green on black
[02:39] <LaserJock> RoAk: so is the white of the xchat the problem in your screenshot or is it the black everywhere else?
[02:39] <LaserJock> pwnguin: ewww, I can't do that
[02:39] <LaserJock> I tried and it gives me bad eye strain
[02:40] <pwnguin> works great on my 2001FP
[02:41] <RoAk> LaserJock, the black makes the white appear more brigth than usual... and since i have that combination is like if i was looking to directle to a flash light in the complete darkness
[02:41] <RoAk> *looking directly to a flash light in the complete darkness
[02:42] <tbielawa> http://csee.wvu.edu/~tbielawa/screentoday.jpg
[02:43] <tbielawa> figured i'd follow suit since we
[02:43] <LaserJock> tbielawa: that's similar to the kind of thing I'd do
[02:43] <tbielawa> 're all showing off our screens :)
[02:43] <LaserJock> although I like more solid backgrounds
[02:43] <tbielawa> I just bought a sub to digitalblasphemy and I  think that background's my favorite so far
[02:44] <pwnguin> you know, I found a wiki article on how to make those with gimp
[02:45] <wgrant> I very rarely see my background. All my windows are fullscreen most of the time (probably from using ion3 for a significant period)
[02:46] <LaserJock> wgrant: same here, from primarily using laptops with crummy resolution
[02:47] <RoAkSoAx> both my laptop and desktop computers terminals look like this though: http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5781/screenshotlh1.png
[02:47] <pwnguin> http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_GIMP_Fractal_Backgrounds
[02:48] <wgrant> That's a few temperature sensors.
[02:49] <pwnguin> http://jldugger.deviantart.com/art/Dualism-Ubuntu-79575306
[02:50] <RoAkSoAx> wgrant, my sensors you mean?
[02:50] <wgrant> RAOF: Yes.
[02:50] <wgrant> Er, RoAkSoAx.
[02:50] <RoAkSoAx> wgrant, yeah.. my mainboard does not support my processor officially so i have to monitor how it goes :D
[02:50] <pwnguin> aha, found it
[02:51] <pwnguin> http://people.cis.ksu.edu/~jld5445/wipeout.png
[02:51] <RoAkSoAx> wgrant, check the volts http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6415/screenshot1an6.png
[02:51] <wgrant> that terminal just killed me, I think.
[02:53] <pwnguin> yea, it was ... unusable
[02:54] <RoAkSoAx> yeah
[02:54] <tbielawa> pwnguin: was that even english?!
[02:54] <RoAkSoAx> i think it was old egipcians language :P xD
[02:55] <RoAkSoAx> gerogliphics? (i'm not sure if that is the word nor even the correct spelling )
[02:56] <ScottK> pwnguin: That's almost as hard to read as what my teenager's come up with (although for the 14 year old pink is much more prominent).
[02:56] <wgrant> OMG PONIEZ
[02:57] <tbielawa> it's not fair to tease like that, wgrant
[02:59] <ScottK> wgrant: I didn't show her the Kubuntu April Fools release for a reason.
[02:59] <ScottK> RoAkSoAx: You'll want to change the password in that screen shot.
[03:00] <RoAkSoAx> ScottK, which one?
[03:00] <ScottK> RoAkSoAx: Kidding.  There isn't one.
[03:01] <RoAkSoAx> ScottK, ahah phew.. you worried me :P
[03:01] <ScottK> ;-)
[03:01] <tbielawa> you had me searching
[03:01] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, yeah i was searching too... lol
[03:09] <ScottK2> So if I have a package that uses quilt, why is removing an un-needed patch and removing the patch name from series not sufficient to get the patch not used to build the package?
[03:17] <tbielawa> decisions... sit at home drinking alone, or drink alone at the bar
[03:17] <tbielawa> ?
[03:17] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, go to the bar and look for someone to make you company :
[03:17] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: :)
[03:18] <RoAkSoAx> that's what i'm going to do anyways xD
[03:18] <tbielawa> nice
[03:19] <tbielawa> There's a CD release show for a local band @ my favorite venue + watering hole, I think I'll check it out
[03:20] <RoAkSoAx> here is the same thing as every saturday.. hang out in multiple bars :D
[03:21] <tbielawa> We need a good west virginia ubuntu gathering
[03:22] <tbielawa> get everyone to come to morgntown, have a grand ol' time
[03:22] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, how is WVU, good place to study?
[03:23] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: I don't feel very challenged but our engineering college is ABET accredited.
[03:23] <tbielawa> The famed couch burnings of the past don't happen as much anymore. but if you're looking for a party scene, we got that too
[03:23] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, cuz i might be doing a Masters Degree in the US and i'm between IIT, WVU and FIU
[03:24] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: in what field, CS?
[03:24] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, yep
[03:24] <Jazzva> pochu: Uploaded debdiffs for tracker, bug 229146
[03:24] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, if i choose FIU i might go for Telecommunications and Networking
[03:25] <tbielawa> WVUs got a talked up Masters of Software Engineering Path
[03:25] <tbielawa> I'd say its worth checking out for sure
[03:26] <tbielawa> we have professors from a wide range of disciplins int he cs field as well. we've got a lot of ground breaking stuff going on for a cozey mountain town :)
[03:26] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, i really don't like software engineering path.. i preffer telecom & networking
[03:27] <RoAkSoAx> i would be an International Student
[03:27] <tbielawa> I don't know off hand anyone in our department that specialized in those fields
[03:27] <tbielawa> we have plenty of international students, especially at the graduate level
[03:28] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, yeah i've seen that CS masters there are not related to telecom & networking, but IIT and FIU are...
[03:28] <tbielawa> what is FIU?
[03:28] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, yeah.. i have to apply for an schoolarship too
[03:28] <RoAkSoAx> Florida International University
[03:29] <tbielawa> oh god -- florida *vomit* sorry... I moved out of that state as quick as I could, you may end up loving it if you attend university there
[03:30] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, i was on vacation there winter 2007... (january trough february) and i really liked it... lots of party... and since i have family there.. might choose FIU
[03:30] <tbielawa> awesome
[03:30] <tbielawa> well folks, I'm heading out. time to check out the venue
[03:31] <RoAkSoAx> have fun tbielawa
[06:49] <RoAkSoAx> O_o
[06:49] <tbielawa> its strange to me that this room is never under 180 participants, yet I can identify the.... 15 people who speak regularly
[06:50] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, werent you going to a bar_
[06:50] <RoAkSoAx> ?
[06:50] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: how'd your night go? Is it even night to you?
[06:50] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, yeah 12:50
[06:51] <RoAkSoAx> how about you?
[06:51] <tbielawa> oh wow, so you're on central time (or something close). I just got back! The three bands just stopped playing.
[06:51] <tbielawa> I had a good time
[06:51] <RoAkSoAx> im at utc -5 ... should be close to Central time but without daylight saving
[06:52] <tbielawa> My typing is impared. I've never typed drnka on a ergonomic keyboard before
[06:52] <RoAkSoAx> and rock on... i didn't go out cuz i remembered that i have examen tomorrow 8am
[06:53] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: I went out because I had my _last_ exam today :) Wound up talking to my manager at the bar/venue for a few hours. Good conversation was had
[06:54] <tbielawa> he mentioned grootboot. My mission tomorrow is to find out what it is and does
[06:54] <RoAkSoAx> cool!! i have a CCNA Module 1 exam.... so i decided not to go out
[06:54] <tbielawa> CCNA exam
[06:54] <RoAkSoAx> yep, module 1
[06:54] <tbielawa> You made the intelligent decision
[06:55] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: what does your handle even mean?
[06:55] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, handle?? my nickname you mean?
[06:55] <tbielawa> Yes
[06:55] <RoAkSoAx> nothing at all
[06:55] <RoAkSoAx> it just came to my mind once
[06:56] <tbielawa> oh
[06:56] <tbielawa> Mine's short for "Timothy Bielawa" quite original don't you think? :p
[06:56] <RoAkSoAx> yep, i used to be ^4nDr3s but i stayed with this
[06:56] <RoAkSoAx> ahaha
[06:56] <RoAkSoAx> yeah lot's of people do that...
[06:57] <RoAkSoAx> some take it as an standard for user control in organizations
[06:57] <tbielawa> dholbach comes to mind
[06:57] <RoAkSoAx> emails, user accs. etc...
[06:57] <tbielawa> ya. that's what we do for user accounts @ work to
[06:57] <tbielawa> *too'
[06:57] <RoAkSoAx> yep, it's kind of and standard
[06:58] <RoAkSoAx> so, you studying CS?
[06:58] <tbielawa> if you search teh intertubes for 'zokosiman' or 'zoko siman' you might dig up stuff I've done in years past.
[06:59] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: ya. I'm a CS and mathematics dual major. I added Math this last semester.
[06:59] <RoAkSoAx> Undergrad?
[06:59] <tbielawa> And you?
[06:59] <tbielawa> Yes. Undergrad, going for B.S.
[06:59] <RoAkSoAx> cool.. i obtained my BS in Systems Engineering (Which would be equivalent to CS in Peru)
[07:00] <RoAkSoAx> on january
[07:00] <pwnguin> systems engineering == CS?
[07:00] <RoAkSoAx> so now i'm finishing my thesis.. and they apply for an schoolarship in the US :D
[07:01] <RoAkSoAx> pwnguin, in Peru... Systems Engineering would be the equivalent to CS in the US
[07:01] <pwnguin> so systems engineers in peru study compilers and Big O notation
[07:01] <pwnguin> huh
[07:02] <tritium> Systems engineering != CS, no
[07:02] <jdong> pwnguin: you ain't gonna reduce us CS'ers to compilers and big-O, are you?
[07:02] <jdong> pwnguin: we might be the worst at achieving the big O ;-)
[07:02] <pwnguin> jdong: i think theres a common experience around such things
[07:02] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: You would loooooooove my job at the university
[07:02] <pwnguin> cs is theory and that's the theory ;)
[07:02] <RoAkSoAx> i've seen the Masters Curricula in FIU for CS, and its very similar to mine in Peru
[07:03] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, what do you do?
[07:03] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx:  Put briefly,  I'm a system administrator for the computer science department.
[07:03] <RoAkSoAx> cool
[07:03] <pwnguin> jdong: laugh all you want, but any presentation of software in a journal would be remiss if it doesn't analyze the runtime
[07:04] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa,  yeah i would love your job
[07:04] <tbielawa> But the part you would enjoy is beyond that. hold on for a minute and I'll get a URL for you
[07:04] <RoAkSoAx> tbielawa, i don't wanna work just yet until i get my thesis done... but i was working last year developing software for a financial institution in my city
[07:05] <jdong> pwnguin: I'm here limboing 6-2 (EE+CS)... consider me an onlooker ;-)
[07:05] <tritium> systems engineering is a very broad term, practiced by many disciplines, including degreed engineers
[07:05] <RoAkSoAx> tritium, it is a broad tearm, but in peru it's realted to informatics (software development, AI, and networking)
[07:06] <tbielawa> We're developing a infrastructure platform. The senior design group this year demonstrated the first implementation of it:  https://launchpad.net/loud-platform
[07:06] <tritium> RoAkSoAx: really, it goes beyond just informatics, and involves the integration of subsystems, requirements management, etc.
[07:06] <RoAkSoAx> depends on the university... but it is pretty much similar to CS
[07:07] <tbielawa> mok0 is details exactly what we're developing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MortenKjeldgaard
[07:07] <tritium> It is similar to CS, but not identical.  It is utilized on mechanical systems, electrical systems, electromechanical systems, etc.  Much more than just software systems.
[07:07] <pwnguin> i think you two are talking about different things
[07:07] <RoAkSoAx> tritium, yes, it does, the term does... but as i'm saying... in Peru.. they use it for all the related to CS
[07:08] <tritium> RoAkSoAx: I understand what you're saying
[07:08] <pwnguin> his degree and "Systems Engineering as practiced in the US"
[07:08] <pwnguin> my point is simply that what's important to a CS degree is computation theory
[07:08] <RoAkSoAx> tritium, in peru there's one only university that use CS as the name of the carreer... few use Informatics Engineering.. and most of Universities use it as Systems Engineering
[07:08] <tritium> pwnguin: international, really: http://www.incose.org/practice/whatissystemseng.aspx
[07:09] <pwnguin> tritium: i'm only familiar with the US =|
[07:09]  * jdong personally thinks CE/IT/SE are distinct from CS
[07:09] <jdong> then again I'm also thinking from a US perspective
[07:09]  * tbielawa nods at jdong
[07:09] <tritium> Wikipedia's Systems engineering page isn't bad either
[07:10] <pwnguin> software engineering, at least at my university, is sort of a weaker "we program but dont think as hard about it" deal
[07:10] <jdong> pwnguin: nah I wouldn't say that much
[07:10] <RoAkSoAx> jdong, i do too that-s why i think it should be renamed to CS, but they put it in Peru like Sys.. ENgine.. because it was "more commercial"
[07:10] <RoAkSoAx> whatever that means
[07:10] <jdong> pwnguin: CS just looks at it from a more theoretical point of view
[07:10] <tbielawa> we have 'information systems' in the WVU business college
[07:10] <jdong> pwnguin: while SE tries to approach a "real world working solution ASAP" way
[07:11] <jdong> pwnguin: actually.... 6.005 (my SE course) is approaching it from a "let's make all the students commit suicide" way.
[07:11] <pwnguin> heh
[07:11] <tbielawa> 0_o
[07:11] <jdong> and it's working.
[07:11] <pwnguin> oh my
[07:11] <jdong> the last weekly project took me 40 hours to complete
[07:11] <pwnguin> we run the operating systems class that way
[07:11] <jdong> and I consider myself to be a fairly experienced coder
[07:11] <jdong> lots of kids were spending significantly longer
[07:11]  * tbielawa is glad he's not a business school manager
[07:12] <jdong> one property of MIT computer labs.... you will notice starting from 5PM people bringing sleeping bagsi nto the lab.
[07:12]  * RoAkSoAx is glad he want's to be a sysadmin and networkadmin :D
[07:12] <jdong> that was one of the weirdest sights during my first term
[07:12] <pwnguin> but we don't work our students on the thesis that they're MIT students dedicated and super intelligent
[07:12] <tbielawa> jdong: 2 things: (1) you're in MIT? (2) you'd work in it/cs there?
[07:13] <jdong> tbielawa: (1) yeah, I'm a 2nd year undergrad in EECS (2) I do work as a sysadmin of 50 or so Ubuntu laptops for our intro to EECS course
[07:14] <pwnguin> jdong: i sorta take issue with the entire OO design. programs are a set of instructions for a computer, not a collection of things. OO (which I hereby equate with Software Engineering) seems very database centric =(
[07:14] <tbielawa> jdong: speaking frankly, I think that's badass :)
[07:15] <tritium> I'm not a big fan of the title "software engineer," as so many who claim that title are not degreed engineers.
[07:15] <RoAkSoAx> jdong, how much did you obtain in your GRE to get accepted there?
[07:15] <pwnguin> wtf
[07:15] <tbielawa> I think pwnguin just openened a box that shouldn't have been
[07:15] <pwnguin> undergrads aren't grads
[07:15] <pwnguin> grads take the gre
[07:15] <jdong> RoAkSoAx: undergraduate, no GRE
[07:15] <jdong> tbielawa: thanks, I'm flattered :)
[07:16] <RoAkSoAx> jdong, oh right, so in STA's?
[07:16] <jdong> pwnguin: well OO is not the buzzword anymore...
[07:16] <RoAkSoAx> SAT's*
[07:16] <jdong> RoAkSoAx: my standardized test scores, I can only say are average
[07:16] <jdong> I think my best set of SAT scores were the low 2300's/ high 2200's
[07:16] <RoAkSoAx> jdong, i see.. here they say that if i get a really hi GRE score i could get to MIT
[07:16] <pwnguin> wasnt 1600 a top score?
[07:17] <tbielawa> pwnguin: yes
[07:17] <jdong> pwnguin: it's 2400 now, They moved the SAT II WRiting test into the main SAT
[07:17] <pwnguin> fun
[07:17] <jdong> pwnguin: so we can lurn our grammarz and stuff
[07:18] <pwnguin> meh. i got a 5 on the AP so i dont have to do that kinda crap :P
[07:19]  * tbielawa didn't take standardized tests until _after_ high school
[07:20] <jdong> I envy you :)
[07:20]  * tbielawa fails @ keeping up with 'the man'
[07:20] <jdong> standardized testing sucks
[07:20] <RoAkSoAx> tell me i have to take the GRE if i ever want to do a masters degree in the US
[07:21] <jdong> almost all schools require scores for it
[07:21] <tritium> RoAkSoAx: correct
[07:21] <RoAkSoAx> yeah
[07:21] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: if you want to do masters then taking the GRE is a necessary step
[07:22] <RoAkSoAx> yeah but vocubulary part is just too tedious to study xD
[07:22] <tbielawa> :(
[07:22] <pwnguin> i recall reading a few years back they caught a ring of people cheating at the computerized GRE stuff so they basically said "no tests this year"
[07:22] <RoAkSoAx> i should have taken it on march... but i was to lazy so i might take it this month
[07:22] <jdong> pwnguin: ETS is pretty evil about that
[07:23] <jdong> pwnguin: they've yanked AP programs at schools locally before because a teacher gave grader-perspective tips.
[07:23] <pwnguin> interesting
[07:23] <pwnguin> oh i should note
[07:23] <RoAkSoAx> i would have to take the paper based.. if i want to take the computer based i will have to travel like 14 hours by bus or 1 by plane to another city
[07:23] <tbielawa> :(
[07:24] <tritium> RoAkSoAx: I'm old enough to not have ever had the computer based option ;)
[07:24] <pwnguin> apparently my English teacher uses me an example of why you should take the AP
[07:24] <RoAkSoAx> tritium, lol...
[07:24] <pwnguin> "I had a student that I thought had no chance at it, but he came out with a 5"
[07:24] <jdong> pwnguin: LOL
[07:24]  * pwnguin damn near failed that class in HS
[07:25] <RoAkSoAx> lol
[07:25] <tbielawa> pwnguin: What is your nationality?
[07:25] <jdong> pwnguin: I didn't take it because I knew I wouldn't be doing well
[07:25] <pwnguin> United statesian
[07:25] <jdong> pwnguin: you didn't take AP Geography did you?
[07:25] <tbielawa> oh

[07:25] <pwnguin> jdong: nope. not sure it existed
[07:25] <pwnguin> oh
[07:25] <jdong> pwnguin: it doesn't
[07:25] <tbielawa> then I LOL at this because I am also and did terrible in english classes :)
[07:25] <pwnguin> jdong: you've never heard of USian?
[07:26] <tbielawa> except I got a 2 instead of 5 in AP :'(
[07:26] <pwnguin> heh
[07:26] <tbielawa> *ap english
[07:26] <pwnguin> well they do all this ridiculus stuff like write down these note cards about books you read
[07:26] <tbielawa> http://galleries8.petiteteenager.com/3/nikkysdreams/vivorange/3.jpg
[07:27] <tbielawa> FAIL
[07:27] <pwnguin> so you can study before the test for the essay question
[07:27] <jdong> pwnguin: our AP English class made us write impromptu essays every meeting of the class
[07:27] <tbielawa> fail
[07:27] <tbielawa> no you
[07:27] <jdong> pwnguin: the moment I heard that, I decided to back out
[07:27] <tbielawa> do not want
[07:28] <pwnguin_> man
[07:29] <pwnguin_> my internet died about the second that pr0n link hit =/
[07:29] <RoAkSoAx> i had to write essays every day for over 2 months
[07:29] <RoAkSoAx> for the GRE prep.
[07:30] <pwnguin_> anyways, I pretty much never did that stuff with cards or studying. Test day I just broke out the good old tom sawyer
[07:30] <RoAkSoAx>  me too lol
[07:30] <tbielawa> I apologize
[07:31] <pwnguin_> tbielawa, you hit the internet so hard there my screen session failed
[07:31] <tbielawa> I see your're on a pwnguin_ name now
[07:31] <pwnguin_> local irc
[07:32] <tbielawa> I'm embarssed about what jsut happened
[07:34] <pwnguin_> its wierd though, being smart. I had a job during school at a movie theater, and a coworker says, Hey, congratulations
[07:34] <pwnguin_> turns out i was in a local paper for national merit commendation
[07:34] <RoAkSoAx> pwnguin_, i had the uggliest job ever when i was in the US... general labor
[07:34] <RoAkSoAx> at a resort
[07:35] <RoAkSoAx> un MN under 10 below
[07:35] <pwnguin_> well
[07:35] <pwnguin_> you win
[07:36] <RoAkSoAx> yeah
[07:36] <RoAkSoAx> worst job ever
[07:37] <pwnguin_> its also wierd when people say they know you, but you dont know them.  it's not like i ever ran out on a field while an announcer read my name. but that's mostly over, hurray
[07:38] <RoAkSoAx> lo
[07:38] <RoAkSoAx> l
[07:38] <pwnguin_> maybe I was "that guy"
[07:38] <pwnguin_> "you know, the wierd one"
[07:38] <pwnguin_> anyways, this doesn't have much to do with motu-ing
[07:39] <RoAkSoAx> well guys have to.. i have an my CCNA module 1 exam in 6 hours.... and it's mothers day!!
[07:39] <RoAkSoAx> peace out
[07:39] <pwnguin_> is the debian sync window open yet?
[07:39] <tbielawa> pwnguin that was me. I heard those words verbatim once
[07:40] <pwnguin_> tbielawa, but in my recollection, there were far WIERDER people than I
[07:40] <tbielawa> RoAkSoAx: hope you do welll. see you another time
[07:40] <RoAkSoAx> thanks tbielawa see ya around
[07:40] <pwnguin_> dude carried all his books around on a collapsable luggage cart
[07:41] <pwnguin_> oh, i did kick miss teen kansas in the back once while playing hacky sack
[07:42] <tbielawa> ??
[07:42] <tbielawa> kick as in, with your foot?
[07:43] <tbielawa> that's intense
[07:45] <jdong> tbielawa: I'm pretty sure miss Teen Kansas isn't an IRC user!
[07:45] <jdong> :)
[07:46] <tbielawa> lol
[07:47] <pwnguin_> well, it was a stray sack
[07:48] <pwnguin_> duty calls to put forth a best effort. unfortunately her back was in the way
[07:49] <tbielawa> lol
[07:49] <tbielawa> on the note of MOTU....
[07:49] <tbielawa> anyone know a good dpatch tutorial
[07:49] <tbielawa> ?
[07:51] <pwnguin_> use quilt?
[07:52] <tbielawa> pwnguin: ?
[07:53] <pwnguin> ive seen several developers say that quilt is a better patching system
[07:53] <tbielawa> 2 items then: (1) why do you recommend quit (2) do you have URLs to nice tutorials on quilt?
[07:54] <tbielawa> pwnguin: looks like (1) was answered
[07:54] <jdong> pwnguin: it's IMO much tougher to use.
[07:55] <jdong> tbielawa: is there something that man dpatch doesn't answer?
[07:55] <pwnguin> jdong: really? they looked about the same to me
[07:56] <jdong> pwnguin: I thought dpatch was eaiser to use
[07:56] <jdong> pwnguin: quilt is certainly more powerful
[07:56] <jdong> but the UI is a bit overwhelming
[07:58] <tbielawa> i'd love to continue this conversation we're all having but I must /sleep
[07:58] <tbielawa> good night all
[08:03] <Hobbsee> mutter, quilt.
[08:04] <Iulian> G'morning
[08:21] <LucidFox> jdong> I used to use dpatch, now I use quilt because it doesn't require a special format for patches
[08:22] <LucidFox> also I like the fact that it doesn't open a separate shell session, and I found the command sequence for editing patches easy to memorize
[08:22] <Amaranth> just make sure you stick export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches in your .bashrc
[08:25] <LucidFox> ah, indeed - thanks for the advice, I used to type it manually :)
[09:21] <RAOF> Anyone want to review a fun new Gnome Do package?
[09:22] <Hobbsee> woo!
[09:22] <RAOF> Aha!  A victim!
[09:22]  * Hobbsee wants to use it, but not review it.
[09:23] <Hobbsee> dream on.
[09:23] <Hobbsee> i'm not reviewing anything with mono in it.
[09:23] <Hobbsee> . o O { why does it need a review anyway?}
[09:23] <RAOF> How about something with debhelper 7? http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-cli-apps/gnome-do
[09:23] <persia> RAOF: How different is it from the last Gnome Do package?
[09:23] <RAOF> Oh, yeah.  Because it's in Debian.  And as such, there isn't a previous package :)
[09:24] <RAOF> I should probably have flagged that in the initial ping :)
[09:24]  * persia isn't qualified to review things for Debian :)
[09:31] <persia> RAOF: On the other hand, I don't like your use of make.  Try:
[09:31] <RAOF> Hah!  This is why I pinged :)
[09:32] <persia> I believe you can drop dh $@ from everything if you use %;;, build::, clean::, install::, and binary-arch::
[09:33] <persia> Also, DH_VERBOSE should be unset for any thing planned for upload: that ought be set only when debugging, rather than a standard build.
[09:33] <RAOF> Yeah; that's the plan.
[09:33] <RAOF> I've never quite got the difference between : and :: in make syntax.  What does it flip?
[09:34] <persia> : defines a rule
[09:34] <persia> :: defines a rule overloading
[09:34] <persia> Using :: allows one to set additional steps or dependencies for a rule, when that rule is defined elsewhere as well.
[09:35] <RAOF> Ah, right.  So there's the catch-all %:, with overrides (for dependencies only) for the other targets?
[09:35] <persia> Using : means that the listing is the only definition of the rule, and the last definition in the list wins (make parses before processing rules)
[09:35] <persia> Right.  %: matches any rule not previously defined.  %:: indicates something that should be an additional step for every rule.
[09:36] <persia> You could also do something like DH_RULES := build clean install binary-arch
[09:36] <persia> and later use $(DH_RULES)::
[09:36] <persia> dh $@
[09:37] <persia> Which adds a call to dh with the argument matching the rule name to any rules listed in the DH_RULES definition.
[09:37] <RAOF> Right.
[09:39]  * persia dist-upgrades sid to determine if a watch file is sufficient for dh to provide a get-orig-source rule
[09:40]  * RAOF believes the answer is 'no'.  Good catch.
[09:40] <RAOF> So you'd prefer something like http://pastebin.ca/1014561
[09:40] <RAOF> ?
[09:41] <persia> %::
[09:41] <RAOF> Don't you need the rules defined somewhere?
[09:41] <persia> (ortherwise it doesn't overload the previously defined rules)
[09:41] <persia> No.  %:: defines every possible rule.
[09:41] <RAOF> Oh, :: _defines_ a rule if it doesn't yet exist?
[09:42] <persia> No.  It defines a rule whose name is a wildcard.  Anything matching the wildcard (everything) calls the rule.
[09:43] <persia> But you need the second colon to define the wildcard as override, rather than only applying when there is not another rule.
[09:43] <RAOF> Aaaah.
[09:43] <RAOF> Right, now makes sense.
[09:44] <persia> If one thinks in OO terms, using :: declares that the current definition inherits from any previous definition.  Using : declares that this is a new object, blocking the namespace.
[09:44] <RAOF> Right.  So %: matches any _undefined_ rule, %:: appends commands to every rule.
[09:45] <persia> That is my understanding.  While I have read the make manual, and written lots of makefiles, it's better to trust testing than my statement.
[09:45] <RAOF> Heh.  I've read the make manual, too, just without paying too much attention to : vs :: :)
[09:47] <RAOF> Or at least bits of it :)
[09:47] <persia> Mind you, %:: also appends commands to rules not elsewhere defined.  As a result, calling debian/rules supercalifragilisticexpealidocious will call dh ﻿﻿﻿supercalifragilisticexpealidocious, so long as %:: is defined as dh $@ (as $@ is a variable replaced with the current rule name)
[09:47] <persia> Right.  For an exercise in your understanding, please explain the difference between the use of = and := :)
[09:47] <RAOF> Oh, this one I know.
[09:48] <RAOF> := is simply defined once, whereas = is essentially recursive text substitution.
[09:48] <RAOF> Where that 'essentially' is hideously misleading.
[09:48] <persia> Well, almost.
[09:49] <RAOF> = will be evaluated each time the variable is substituted, too.
[09:49] <RAOF> Whereas I don't think := gets that treatment?
[09:49] <persia> := is defined at parse time, so it is guaranteed to be processed for every invocation, regardless of target, but is only processed once.  = is defined at runtime, and is processed at each substitution, which can be interesting when using FOO = $(shell increment-counter) or similar constructions.
[09:50] <persia> (or QUUX := $(shell mail-maintainer-your-personal-details) )
[09:52] <RAOF> QUUX?
[09:53] <persia> METASYNTACTIC_VARIABLES := foo bar baz quux
[09:53] <RAOF> quux.  Wow.
[09:53] <RAOF> I've often needed more than 3 metasyntactic variables.  Now I know about quux :)
[09:54] <persia> I only know 4, and have run out before.  Please advise if you encounter the next in the series.
[09:56] <RAOF> Hm.  I wonder if just defining %: dh $@ is enough there.
[09:56] <RAOF> How smart is dpatch.make, in other words.
[09:56] <RAOF> Or dh, I suppose.
[09:57] <persia> My memory is that it is considered incorrect to have two rules with the same name (including wildcard expansion) defined in the same makefile without using ::.  If nothing else, it may require significant use of make -p to understand what is being done.
[09:58] <sebner> persia: yesterday I looked at uqm. my debdiff tells me more than your last changelog entry ^^
[09:59] <persia> sebner: What's wrong with the changelog entry?  I didn't think I changed anything other than the .desktop installation and the menu file (and I wish upstream would stop complaining about wanting to define a special folder in the menu and have three or four executables, and just apply the patch already)
[10:00] <persia> sebner: Or do you mean the changelog for uqm-content?
[10:00] <sebner> persia: no uqm
[10:00] <persia> sebner: What did I miss in the changelog?
[10:00] <sebner> persia: you changed things in debian/control, rules .. without mentioning it
[10:00] <RAOF> persia: I mean - define no rules other than %: dh $@
[10:01] <persia> RAOF: You lose dependencies if you do that, but the dh manpage says that ought be sufficient for most standard packages.
[10:01] <sebner> persia: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11391/
[10:02] <RAOF> persia: Yeah.  So, I was in effect wondering whether dpatch has had the dh treatment; ie: whether the right commands are run in the right place automatically.
[10:02] <RAOF> The quickest answer to this question is of course to fire up my sid VM and see.
[10:03] <persia> sebner: Umm.  All the changes in debian/rules are about installing the desktop file & icon, and the changes to debian/control are about changing the maintainer and installing the icon.
[10:03] <persia> RAOF: There you go :)
[10:03] <sebner> persia: shareutils = necessary for installing the icon?
[10:04] <persia> sebner: Yep.  The icon is uuencoded in debian/, and so must be uudecoded at build-time.  This is required because the packaging format used for uqm doesn't support the addition of binary files.
[10:04] <persia> See debian/uqm.png.uu
[10:04] <persia> (and it's sharutils: no 'e')
[10:05] <sebner> persia: I see. ok then. but I just want to note that some sponsors wouldn't upload it if I attach this debdiff now ;)
[10:05] <persia> I used to just use an .xpm, but upstream complained, and wanted the .png as well.
[10:05] <persia> sebner: For what reason?  What's missing?
[10:06] <sebner> persia: Document *everything* in the changelog entry. So also the changes in debian/control and rules though they are only necessary because of the icon thing
[10:07] <persia> That's a waste of disk and archive space.  debian/changelog is a means by which developers communicate to end-users about the changes in the package.  It ought include a brief line describing each type of change, but it oughtn't matter which specific files were touched, or what was done: those are implementation details better understood from a debdiff.
[10:09] <sebner> persia: nevertheless I will adjust the changelog a bit and upload it then. You can review it then ;) maybe you also want to ACK bug 229088
[10:09] <persia> Joey uploaded again?  Excellent.
[10:10] <wgrant> persia: I saw an email recently to some Debiany list from some official person saying changelogs must say more than `Fix such-and-such'. They should say how it was fixed, and which files were touched, unless there were lots of them.
[10:11] <sebner> wgrant: well sometimes I whishes the same ;)
[10:11] <persia> wgrant: Really?  That's an interesting change.  Any pointer?
[10:11] <wgrant> As do I.
[10:11] <wgrant> It was a while ago, sorry.
[10:11] <wgrant> A month or two.
[10:11] <persia> Ah.  Not d-d-a, but that's the only wide-view Debian list to which I subscribe.
[10:11] <sebner> persia: btw, normally I wouldn't procress the this merge and sync since it doesn't seem that worth.!?
[10:12] <persia> sebner: Why not?  If we don't install the .desktop file properly, it doesn't appear in Add/Remove programs, and nobody plays the game.
[10:12] <sebner> persia: no. I mean the merge and sync of the new debian version. they don't contain that important changes ...
[10:13] <persia> sebner: Oh.  That's a release cycle timing thing.
[10:13] <persia> To my understanding, there are basically four parts of the release cycle, as it affects integration with Debian, as follows:
[10:14] <persia> Archive Open through Debian Import Freeze: merge everything, no matter how trivial.
[10:14] <persia> Debian Import Freeze through Feature Freeze: merge everything interesting, unless it might break something.
[10:15] <persia> Feature Freeze through Beta Freeze: merge anything interesting that is really wanted for the next release
[10:15] <persia> Beta Freeze through Archive Close: merge anything considered release-critical
[10:16] <persia> So at this point, everything gets merged.  Come DIF, we'll get picky again.
[10:16] <sebner> persia: I see though part 1 should be: Merge everything, no matter how trivial if debian is unwilling you accept our changes and we can't make a sync :)
[10:17] <persia> sebner: I guess.  Works either way.  In the case of uqm, I've been coordinating with the Debian maintainer and upstream for a significant number of releases.  No point waiting.
[10:17] <sebner> persia: I see
[10:18] <RAOF> Aww.  The dependencies are necessary.  No magic dpatch yet :)
[10:19] <persia> RAOF: You could create a magic dpatch: use := to check the version of debhelper installed at parse time, and then use if to have separate stanzas to do the right thing depending on the version installed...
[10:19] <sebner> persia: btw. Why is it "-rm uqm.png" and not "rm uqm.png"
[10:20] <persia> sebner: Because I don't really care if uqm.png cannot be removed, and don't want make to have an error if it fails to delete the file.  Imagine the case where debian/rules clean is called when the uqm.png file has not yet been created.
[10:20] <persia> (e.g. `debian/rules clean; debian/rules clean`)
[10:21] <sebner> persia: so the "-" is for ignoring errors?
[10:21] <persia> Yes.
[10:21] <sebner> cool :)
[10:22] <persia> Mind you this can be abused.  It's best to only use on a single line.  Don't use it like "-$(MAKE) clean": for that it's better to have appropriate error management in the makefile being executed, rather than the meta-makefile.
[10:25] <sebner> persia: good to know :) Are you a fan of this game? It's rather strange for me ^^
[10:26] <persia> I spent many enjoyable hours playing that game, although now I've solved it enough times that I am still waiting to forget enough to play it again.
[10:34] <sebner> persia: ^^, debdiff uploaded :)
[10:34] <persia> sebner: Great :)
[10:37] <sebner> A pleasure
[10:40]  * LucidFox appreciates the addition of debian/clean in debhelper 7
[10:44] <persia> sebner: While I think that is sufficient, you've not actually indicated that you've added the icon in the changelog :p
[10:46] <afflux> morning
[10:46] <sebner> persia: Well, I'm just doing what you said. Don't make the debdiff too big :P
[10:46] <sebner> huhu afflux
[10:46] <afflux> heya sebner
[10:46] <persia> sebner: Yep.  I'm just poking fun because you wanted to list everything :)  No reason to change it.
[10:47] <sebner> persia: you wanted to keep as it is. I wanted to list everything. The result is somewhere in the middle :)
[10:48] <persia> sebner: Actually, I just didn't want to merge it.  Your update to the changelog is fine: the best bit is that your name will show up next time :)
[10:48] <sebner> persia: yeah. Everybody wants to load there merges on me ^^
[10:49] <sebner> *their
[10:59] <geser> sebner: it's called delegation :)
[11:00] <sebner> geser: hehe I see, and in the end I'm more often than you on DaD ^^
[11:01] <geser> sebner: till the next merge round you're hopefully a MOTU and can delegate your merges *g
[11:03] <afflux> sebner: btw glückwunsch  :)
[11:04] <sebner> geser: ^^, Personally I *want* to do merges. Unlikely that that I will delegate :P
[11:04] <sebner> afflux: thanks (danke) :)
[11:05]  * cody-somerville waves to everyone.
[11:05] <cody-somerville> Heya Gang :)
[11:05] <cody-somerville> Good Morning from Atlantic Canada :)
[11:06] <sebner> uhu cody-somerville
[12:03] <Laney> If a needs-packaging bug's upstream has discontinued development, should the bug be invalidated?
[12:16] <persia> Laney: Depends on the software.  If it's done, it might be useful.  If it needs lots of work, maybe it's not so useful.
[12:18] <Laney> persia: No, nobody had started work on it. I was looking for something to do and came across this one.
[12:19] <persia> Laney: My apologies for being unclear.  I meant that if the software is complete (upstream is done), it may be worth doing the packaging.  If there are issues with the software, or it doesn't work perfectly, or otherwise needs upstream work, it's not worth packaging if upstream is inactive.
[12:20] <Laney> persia: Ah, right. I guess I'll look into it then, thanks
[12:21] <persia> Laney: No problem.  Thanks for asking.  Also, if you come to the conclusion that the answer is that it should not be packaged, the correct status is "Won't Fix", rather than invalid, because it's a valid request to include the software, but the software won't be included because there's no support for fixing bugs.
[12:27] <Hobbsee> good evening
[12:29] <RAOF> Ood evening.
[12:30]  * Hobbsee is even on the correct timezone today.
[13:21] <ryanakca> hmmm... what are the links to MoM & DaD again?
[13:23] <sebner> ryanakca: http://dad.dunnewind.net/universe.php
[13:23] <sebner> ryanakca: https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
[13:24] <ryanakca> sebner: thanks :D
[14:49] <Arby> afternoon all, I've had a debdiff rejected for being too big.
[14:50] <Arby> where do I start looking for what's wrong
[14:50] <Arby> just saying it's too big doesn't help me a lot as a newbie to packaging
[14:51] <sebner> Arby: ask the rejecter ;)
[14:51] <laga> it'd help if you posted a link to the debdiff
[14:51] <Arby> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/14375900/kdevelop_3.5.1-1ubuntu1.debdiff
[14:51] <Arby> I had a lot of trouble getting this to actually build
[14:52] <Arby> the output of debdiff is still alien to me so I don't really know what I'm looking for
[14:53] <Arby> eventually got it to build by running make -f debian/rules buildprep then pdebuild
[14:53] <Arby> on the recommendation of a developer
[14:53] <Arby> sebner: I'll post a response to the bug report then, thanks
[14:54] <sebner> Arby: k, would you mind posting the bug number?
[14:54] <Arby> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdevelop/+bug/227939
[14:56] <sebner> Arby: well, true. a debdiff shouldn't be more than a few kb's. What are the steps you are taking to make a debdiff?
[14:58] <Arby> sebner: grab-merge from MoM, resolve conflicts, run debuild -S, run pdebuild,  then run debdiff new_version.dsc old_version.dsc
[14:59] <laga> what does MoM and DaD stand for?
[15:00] <Arby> MoM is Merge-o-matic I think
[15:00] <sebner> Arby: it should be. debdiff old_version new_version > new_version.debdiff
[15:00] <Jazzva> laga: Merge-o-Matic - http://merges.ubuntu.com, DaD is MoM alternative - http://dad.dunnewind.net
[15:00] <laga> ah, thanks
[15:00] <Jazzva> np
[15:00] <Arby> sebner: ok let me try that and see what I get
[15:03] <Hobbsee> erk.  don't relibtoolise for a start.
[15:03] <Arby> Hobbsee: I don't know what that means sorry
[15:03] <Hobbsee> Arby: running 'make -f debian/rules' will rerun libtool, which will do a lot of automatic file regeneration
[15:04] <Arby> Hobbsee: it was suggested by riddell
[15:04] <Arby> before that I couldn't get it too build at all
[15:04] <Arby> at least it builds now
[15:07] <Arby> prior to that command it was failing to build with this output,
[15:07] <Arby> http://paste.ubuntu.com/11422/
[15:08] <jerry> hi, everyone! I am new baby for ubuntu. Where could I get my first task ?
[15:09] <slytherin> I am having trouble with bash completion with almost all development tools like dput, pbuilder debdiff etc. Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong?
[15:09] <Arby> sebner: I made a mistake with the debdiff command I must have done debdiff old new because I get the same result
[15:09] <Arby> running debdiff kdevelop_3.5.1-0ubuntu2.dsc kdevelop_3.5.1-1ubuntu1.dsc >kdevelop_3.5.1-1ubuntu1.debdiff
[15:10] <RainCT> slytherin: to be sure, do you have bash-completion installed?
[15:10] <Arby> gives me an 8.4Mb debdiff
[15:10] <RainCT> (it was moved out of the bash package itself)
[15:10] <Arby> clearly I've stuffed up somewhere but no idea where
[15:10] <slytherin> RainCT: Yes I have. It works perfectly at my office machine but not my desktop
[15:10] <slytherin> I mean home PC
[15:11] <RainCT> slytherin: no idea then :(. what problems do you have?
[15:11] <sebner> Arby: debdiff new_debian new_ubuntu ;)
[15:11] <Arby> ho hum, I'll try again
[15:11] <slytherin> RainCT: It doesn't work. None of them suggestion any completion. Do you think my ~/.bashrc could be problematic?
[15:11] <Arby> :)
[15:12] <Jazzva> jerry: Hello, you can read a Getting Started guide at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted . The list of bitesize bugs, which should be easy enough for newcomers, is at http://tinyurl.com/6rnrky
[15:12] <RainCT> !packaging > jerry
[15:12] <RainCT> jerry: check the pages that ubottu will tell you
[15:13] <Arby> sebner: that gives an 8.8M debdiff, I'm getting worse :)
[15:13] <RainCT> jerry: if that gives you no clue on how you may help, you can ask for mentor.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring
[15:14] <jerry> thanks, Jazzva, RainCT. I wish I could provide some help. I wonder if I could find anything free on the net and try packaging it into ubuntu...
[15:14] <sebner> Arby: would you mind if I give it a try?
[15:14] <RainCT> slytherin: . /etc/bash_completion 2> /dev/null
[15:14] <jerry> Oh, mentring will be great.
[15:14] <Arby> sebner: feel free
[15:14] <RainCT> slytherin: I've this line there (was there by default)
[15:14] <RainCT> slytherin: there = in .bashrc
[15:14] <jerry> I will try mentor see if anyone could give a hand..:)
[15:14] <sebner> Arby: If it works here I will help you with it ;)
[15:14] <slytherin> RainCT: What does it actually do?
[15:14] <Arby> sebner: it probably means I've basically screwed up the merge :)
[15:15] <Arby> it was bound to happen sooner or later :)
[15:15] <sebner> Arby: We'll see
[15:15] <RainCT> slytherin: load the bash completion
[15:16] <RainCT> slytherin: (the . is to run the command on the current shell, and /etc/bash_completion defines some completion rules and loads the files from /etc/bash_completion.d/ too)
[15:17] <Jazzva> jerry: There is a list of needs-packaging bugs: http://tinyurl.com/5mc7n3 . But, I would advise you to get familiar with the debian packages structure and how it all works first. Read the pages ubottu sent you.
[15:17] <slytherin> RainCT: Found the reason. What you told me was there in .bashrc but commented. Also it is commented in /etc/bash.bashrc
[15:18] <slytherin> RainCT: Is it supposed to be commented by default in /etc/bash.bashrc?
[15:18] <jerry> thanks, Jazzva:) I think I will start with debian packaging first.
[15:18] <RainCT> slytherin: oh.. that's evil
[15:18] <RainCT> slytherin: a better default would be    if [ -f /etc/bash_completion ] ...
[15:19] <RainCT> slytherin: I don't know, haven't done any clean Hardy installation myself
[15:19] <slytherin> RainCT: Yes, that is what is present, but commented. Should I log a bug?
[15:19] <slytherin> RainCT: It is not clean hardy install, it is upgrade
[15:23] <slytherin> jerry: I suggest that you try to fix small bugs first. You will learn a lot. :-)
[15:23] <sebner> Arby: *testbuilding* but it seems it's working. I'll guide you then
[15:23] <slytherin> jerry: I mean problems in packaging. try to work on merges
[15:23] <ryanakca> to build test packages for intrepid (merge), should I create an intrepid schroot, or can I test build it in hardy?
[15:23] <Arby> sebner: great, thanks
[15:25] <sebner> Arby: ok let's start. create a new folder for working with
[15:25] <slytherin> ryanakca: intrepid chroot
[15:26] <RainCT> slytherin: not a bug, someone just confirmed that it is enabled in a clean Hardy installation by default (with an if [ -f ... )
[15:26] <Arby> sebner: done
[15:26] <ryanakca> slytherin: thanks
[15:26] <sebner> Arby: copy your grab-merge thing into the folder and fetch the kdevelop files
[15:27] <Arby> fetching
[15:27] <no0tic> I'm requesting a merge for criticalmass, we added an xpm file and its content was in the debdiff, I deleted them, is it ok? anyone can take a look to my debdiff? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11423/
[15:27] <slytherin> RainCT: Then it is an upgrade bug. Because it is disabled and I did and upgrade from gutsy.
[15:28] <persia> no0tic: Does Debian include the .xpm file now?  If not, we still need it.
[15:28] <slytherin> anyway, leave it minor problem for me now
[15:28] <sebner> Arby: Dad or MoM. What you are using. does not apply the changes so you have to do it manually
[15:29] <no0tic> persia, no, it doesn't
[15:29] <Arby> sebner: ok
[15:29] <Arby> still fetching, slowly.
[15:30] <sebner> Arby: k, tell me if you are ready
[15:30] <persia> no0tic: The menu files use the .xpm icon.  If you don't include it, it will cause the menu to show a missing icon, which isn't ideal.
[15:31] <no0tic> persia, so the debdiff is responsible for the creation of the file inside the package?
[15:32] <slytherin> Can someone please give back ant?
[15:32] <Arby> sebner: ready
[15:32] <persia> no0tic: The debdiff is responsible for determining the changes between Debian and Ubuntu.  This may include additional files.
[15:32] <sebner> Arby: ok. look at the LP kdevelop page and and debian changelog. Tell me what changes you have to apply
[15:33] <no0tic> persia, ok, if you have time, please take a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/criticalmass/+bug/229260
[15:33] <slytherin> Hobbsee: Can you please give back ant? :-)
[15:33] <sebner> persia: you may forgot to upload uqm?
[15:34] <persia> sebner: Not forgotten, just not gotten to sponsoring anything recently.
[15:34] <persia> no0tic: At first glance, that looks better.  I'd need to test to be sure.
[15:34] <Arby> sebner: it seems to be the conflicts in the REPORT file and one other patch kubuntu_01_fix_missing_output.diff
[15:35] <sebner> persia: ah ok. was just wondering because we talked about the changelog some hours ago :)
[15:35] <sebner> Arby: -.- it's better to use DaD. I trust DaD more than MoM.
[15:36] <Arby> sebner: actually the patch has been moved upstream on a second look
[15:36] <sebner> Arby: yep
[15:36] <Arby> sebner: looking at DaD
[15:37] <JIan_Luo> hi everyone, I just MV myself to JIan_Luo from Jerry :) It seems there is a name collision.
[15:38] <Arby> sebner: DaD doesn't seem to report conflicts in the same way, where can I find that information?
[15:39] <sebner> Arby: shouldn't be one. let's continue
[15:39] <sebner> Arby: so what changes do you have to apply?
[15:40] <Arby> sebner: I don't know, I usually get that from the conflicts
[15:40] <sebner> Arby: well. Look at the LP kdevelop site
[15:40] <sebner> Arby: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdevelop
[15:40] <sebner> Arby: there are the latest changelog entries
[15:41] <Arby> reading
[15:43] <Arby> sebner: remove kubuntu_01_fix_missing_output.diff patch some build deps to check
[15:43] <sebner> Arby: Dad removed it already. but yes. check the build depends
[15:43] <Arby> and I think there is kubuntu_01_svn_724231_qmake.diff to add
[15:43] <Arby> I don't think that one has made it upstream
[15:45] <sebner> Arby: if it's still possible, yes
[15:45] <Arby> sebner: how do I know if it's possible
[15:45] <ryanakca> to build an intrepid chroot on Hardy, I need to install the intrepid debootstrap?
[15:45] <sebner> Arby: argh. sry. I mean necessary
[15:46] <sebner> ryanakca: no. it is in hardy backports
[15:47] <ryanakca> sebner: thanks
[15:48] <Arby> sebner: "kubuntu_01_fix_missing_output.diff" is still present in debian/patches but kubuntu_01_svn_724231_qmake.diff has been removed
[15:48] <Arby> I assume that means the second one is no longer necessary
[15:49] <Arby> sebner: and the first should be removed as it is redundant, correct?
[15:49] <sebner> Arby: keep in mind that DaD didn't any changes automatically so you have to check
[15:50] <Arby> sebner: I thought I just did, I'm missing something here
[15:51] <Arby> sebner: I'm comfortable that fix_missing_output is redundant so should be removed
[15:51] <Arby> if the svn patch is still relevant why would it be absent
[15:51] <Arby> sebner: shouldn't it still be present in the source files
[15:52] <sebner> Arby: no you shouldn't remove the fix_missing patch
[15:52] <sebner> Arby: debian took our patch, not upstream
[15:53] <sebner> Arby: for the svn patch. You have to check if it's still necessary of it's fixed now upstream since it's a new upstream version
[15:53] <Arby> sebner: I don't understand. That means that there are 2 patches that do the same thing in debian/patches
[15:53] <sebner> Arby: doing the same? which ones?
[15:54] <Arby> sebner: 02_fix_build_output_view.diff  kubuntu_01_fix_missing_output.diff
[15:54] <Arby> sebner: from the changelog that seems to be the same thing
[15:56] <Arby> sebner: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11428/ sounds the same to me, am I wrong?
[15:56] <sebner> Arby: seems so but keep it for now. Let's start with debian/control
[15:57] <Arby> sebner: for the build-deps I took the debian versions
[15:57] <sebner> Arby: why?
[15:57] <Arby> because I was always advised to favour debian changes
[15:59] <sebner> Arby: true but I think we want to keep our ones.
[15:59] <Arby> sebner: ok
[15:59] <Arby> changing back
[15:59] <sebner> Arby: I'm checking the patches stuff
[16:09] <sebner> Arby: argh. sry. how far are you?
[16:10] <Arby> looking through debian changelogs trying to find what this svn patch is actually for
[16:10] <Arby> changed the build-deps to the ubuntu versions and other bits in debian/control
[16:11] <Arby> sebner: Maintainer names, Standards Version etc
[16:11] <sebner> Arby: just adjust the Maintainer and the build.depends. nothing else
[16:12] <sebner> Arby: We don't want to introduce new changes if they are not necessary
[16:12] <Arby> sebner: but Debian have increased the standards version 3.7.2 -> 3.7.3
[16:12] <Arby> shouldn't that be included
[16:12] <sebner> Arby: ah. ok then. sry
[16:13] <sebner> Arby: now check if the svn patch is still necessary. It may was included in the new upstream version
[16:13] <Arby> sebner: I have http://paste.ubuntu.com/11431/ the rest of debian/control is unchanged
[16:13] <Arby> sebner: I can't find any mention of it outside debian/changelog
[16:14] <Arby> or what it does.
[16:14] <sebner> Arby: maybe. kdevelop bugtracking system
[16:14] <Arby> looking
[16:18] <sebner> Arby: hmm not necessary since it's also not in 3.5.1-0ubuntu1
[16:18] <Arby> sebner: doh, I should have thought of that :)
[16:19] <Arby> right, is that the patches done? what next?
[16:19] <sebner> Arby: AFAIK you also have to readd the ubuntu changelog entries
[16:20] <Arby> sebner: there are only those 2 and we've dealt with them
[16:20] <Arby> the others have all gone into debian
[16:20] <sebner> Arby: Yeah but you have to readd all of them
[16:23] <sebner> Arby: a tipp. take the changelog from the latest ubuntu package and add the missing debian ones. is a lot faster ;)
[16:24] <Arby> sebner: noted thanks, as far as I can see all the kubuntu patches have gone into debian bar the two we have discussed
[16:24] <sebner> Arby: yep
[16:25] <Arby> sebner: I think debian/control is sorted now at least until we get to testbuilding. what now?
[16:25] <sebner> Arby: if you have finished with debian/changelog run debuild -S -sa -us -uc
[16:25] <sebner> and debdiff then
[16:26] <Arby> sebner: ok just need to tidy up changelog
[16:26] <sebner> k
[16:26] <slytherin> sebner: what is us and uc option?
[16:27] <sebner> slytherin: so you don't sign it with you key
[16:27] <sebner> with the openpgp key
[16:27] <sebner> not necessary here
[16:27] <slytherin> sebner: what difference does it make anyway? When submitting debdiff it will be finally signed by someone else.
[16:28] <sebner> slytherin: true but it's useless
[16:28] <sebner> slytherin: so you don't have to type your password twice ,.. just a waste of time
[16:29] <slytherin> sebner: I use seahorse for password caching. :-)
[16:30] <sebner> slytherin: ^^
[16:31]  * slytherin time for dinner
[16:34] <Arby> sebner: done, debdiff new_debian new_ubuntu still gives me 1.2M debdiff, is that acceptable?
[16:34] <sebner> Arby: no really. post it somewhere
[16:39] <Arby> sebner: just for my information, what is the upper limit of 'too big' approximately?
[16:39] <Arby> a few kb could be 50kb or 900kb
[16:39] <sebner> Arby: few are 10-50
[16:39] <Arby> sebner: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/14450924/kdevelop_3.5.1-1ubuntu1.debdiff
[16:39] <Arby> only place I could put it sorry
[16:40] <Arby> sebner: the MoM report file shows other conflicts that we haven't touched. Am I supposed to just ignore those?
[16:41] <sebner> Arby: what conflicts?
[16:41] <sebner> Arby: you debdiff still seems to be b0rken
[16:41] <Arby> sebner: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11436/
[16:42] <Arby> sebner: br0ken in what way?
[16:42] <Jazzva> Arby: Please adjust content type to be text/plain, so it can be easily previewed in browser. You can do that by clicking "edit" in the left menu, next to the file page.
[16:42] <sebner> Arby: on LP. I changed it to "it's a patch". now it displays correct. Let me take a look
[16:43] <Arby> Jazzva: ok noted
[16:44] <sebner> Arby: well. I think you can remove everything except the changes of debian/control and debian/changelog from the debdiff
[16:45] <Arby> sebner: what criteria do I use to make that decision for myself in the future?
[16:45] <Arby> i.e. how do you know that's a safe thing to do
[16:46] <sebner> Arby: well there are that big changes because 1) some things are autogenerated 2) ubuntu packaged the version and so we have differences.
[16:46] <sebner> Arby: but we want to have the debian version we just apply the changes what are really necessary
[16:47] <Arby> hmm, sounds like something you have to 'just know'.
[16:48] <sebner> Arby: in case you don't know, just ask here
[16:53] <Arby> sebner: all I have left in debdiff now is http://paste.ubuntu.com/11437/
[16:53] <Arby> does that look ok to you?
[16:54] <Arby> it's 11k now
[16:54] <sebner> Arby: upgraded build-depends kdelibs4-dev, libcvsservice-dev 4:3.5.8 -> 4:3.5.9
[16:54] <sebner>   <-- did you do that or debian?
[16:55] <Arby> I did that, we discussed earlier
[16:55] <Arby> I took debians build deps and you said to keep ours
[16:55] <Arby> sebner: those are what was different
[16:55] <pochu> Arby: you can put the Homepage just once in the source stanza
[16:55] <sebner> Arby: then you don't have to mention that ;) You should mention the python and the other thing you changed
[16:56] <pochu> Arby: in fact it's already there, so remove the ones from the descriptions
[16:56] <sebner> pochu: Yeah. pochu helps me.
[16:56]  * sebner hugs pochu 
[16:56]  * pochu hugs sebner back :)
[16:56] <Arby> slow down folks :)
[16:57] <sebner> Arby: btw. I'm no MOTU, pochu is ;)
[16:57] <Arby> sebner: you've lost me on the changelog
[16:58] <sebner> Arby: I thought it's clear *g*. Just ask if you are not sure
[16:58] <pochu> Arby: now dpkg understands a Homepage field in the source stanza, so you don't need to put it in the description.
[16:58] <Arby> sebner: why do I not record those differences? I thought that was the point
[16:58] <LaserJock> anybody here know of to flush the disk cache?
[16:58] <Arby> sebner: no, not that the build deps
[16:59] <sebner> Arby: you have to mention everything you change in you changelog entry
[17:00] <Arby> sebner: yes and the versions of those library packages are different in ubuntu than debian
[17:00] <Arby> so I thought I should note that
[17:00] <Arby> am I wrong
[17:00] <sebner> Arby: yes but we go back to the debian version so it's ok and you just have to mention the remaining ubuntu changes
[17:01] <Arby> that seems odd but fair enough
[17:01] <sebner> Arby: DaD somebody ***** up the package
[17:02] <sebner> Arby: We have the debian version. and normally you only have to change the python and the other thing. That's what you have to mention
[17:02] <Jazzva> Hey, pochu... Care to look at tracker debdiff? It's not big :)
[17:02] <Arby> sebner: the other thing?
[17:03] <sebner> Arby: Upgrade build-deps to libdb4.6-dev, python2.5
[17:03] <pochu> Jazzva: yeah, I'll have a look if no main sponsor does it before :) although they will have to look at it anyway, as I can't upload it ;)
[17:03] <Arby> oh that thing ok
[17:06] <Jazzva> pochu: OK, it's bug 225499. I thought it might be easier for them to approve it, if they see a comment from MOTU and previous uploader :). Thanks for your help with these merges.
[17:06] <Jazzva> ugh
[17:06] <Jazzva> bug 229146
[17:07] <Arby> sebner, pochu: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11442/ <-- that ok with you two before I upload it
[17:08] <pochu> Jazzva: I'll probably review it and ask either seb128 or pitti to sponsor it, as they have touched the package before too
[17:09] <pochu> Arby: you are still adding those Homepage fields in the description... you can remove that delta :)
[17:09] <Jazzva> pochu: Ok... I'll be off for a while, another voting here in Serbia...
[17:10] <Arby> pochu: ok apart from that?
[17:10] <pochu> Arby: and you are still upgrading the kdelibs4-dev and libcvsservice b-d. If you are keeping that delta, mention it in the changelog
[17:10] <sebner> Arby: and you changelog entry should be http://paste.ubuntu.com/11444/
[17:10] <sebner> pochu: they shouldn't be keept
[17:10] <sebner> *kept
[17:11]  * Arby <- lost again
[17:11] <pochu> well I don't know that as I haven't looked closely at it and I don't know why they are different
[17:11] <Arby> one person says keep that one says don't
[17:11] <sebner> ^^
[17:11] <sebner> Arby: the best is to ask the last uploader
[17:11] <pochu> Arby: I say, either keep it and mention it in the changelog, or don't keep it and don't mention it in the changelog
[17:11] <pochu> Arby: right now you are keeping it, but don't mention it, which isn't fine
[17:12] <RainCT> uhm.. PPA's have become fast :)
[17:12] <sebner> pochu: it's horrible to package at our own and then go back to debian -.-
[17:12] <sebner> RainCT: sounds great :)
[17:13] <Arby> I'll check with the last uploader and see what he says
[17:14] <sebner> Arby: maybe I/we confused you. always better to talk with the last uploader, especially in such cases
[17:15] <Arby> sebner: I think I'm just finding all the things that aren't/can't be written down anywhere because they're different for every package
[17:15] <Arby> there seems to be an awful lot you have to just know
[17:15] <sebner> Arby: don't worry. you'll learn :)
[17:17] <ScottK> Arby: This is also why all changes must be documented in debian/changelog.  It makes it much more possible for someone else to pick up and continue.
[17:17] <ScottK> It's also why there is value in the same person getting first crack at a merge.  They know what needs to be done usually.
[17:18] <sebner> ScottK: maybe it's also not that good to start with kdevelop or something similar
[17:18] <Arby> ScottK: I asked the previous uploader before I started
[17:18] <Arby> and he said fine
[17:18] <ScottK> Arby: Which is a good practice (the asking) that I try to encourage.
[17:19] <sebner> Arby: that only means that it's ok for him, not that's an easy one
[17:20] <Arby> sebner: fair point but I have done other simpler ones previously that were successful
[17:20] <Arby> this was just the first debdiff that I'd had rejected
[17:21] <sebner> Arby: well, also the encoding was somehow b0rken
[17:21] <Arby> not sure why that was
[17:21] <Arby> could be me not using launchpad properly
[17:22] <Arby> sebner: thanks for you patience, it's much appreciated
[17:22] <Arby> *your
[17:23]  * Arby goes off to do something less stressful for a while
[17:23] <sebner> Arby: np. I'm now universe-contributor so I should know some things ^^. No, I remember when I started.. So np and keep up you work
[17:24] <no0tic> :) is good to hear that, I think to be stressful too, with all my questions :)
[18:41] <ryanakca> I'm attempting to merge 'john', however, I'm unsure about some of the differences in the rules file. Do I stick to the Ubuntu changes, or the Debian changes? (Default achetecture/etc)... http://paste.ubuntu.com/11461/
[18:44] <ryanakca> Also, why can't I 'grab-merge.sh kio-apt' ? It complains about not being able to read REPORT, and it doesn't download anything...
[18:46] <LaserJock> ryanakca: you might want to ask the Debian maintainer and/or Ubuntu person who did the changes
[18:47] <ryanakca> LaserJock: ok, thanks :)
[18:48] <ryanakca> LaserJock: and a more general packaging question. If the Depends includes debhelper (>= 4.1.0), can I bump it up to the current debhelper version, or once again, check?
[18:49] <LaserJock> hmm
[18:49] <LaserJock> unless you actually need a new debhelper version I'd probably leave it
[18:49] <ryanakca> ok, thanks :)
[18:50] <zul> do do do
[18:58] <LaserJock> zul: dubey dowah
[18:59] <zul> hey LaserJock how goes it?
[18:59] <LaserJock> oh, alright
[19:00] <LaserJock> trying to do redo my bzr linux tree performance testing for the 3rd time
[19:00] <ryanakca> Whats the component of http://packages.debian.org/sid/kiosktool ? (kde) ?
[19:00] <zul> LaserJock: sounds like fun im just watching tv and hoping Liam doesnt wake up
[19:00] <LaserJock> ryanakca: what do you mean by component?
[19:01] <ryanakca> LaserJock: whatever is ment by https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging?action=show&redirect=Merging#head-32f94fb74efce0c3a0123e984fc5292245272e32 ... I'm trying to file a merge bug for it
[19:01] <ryanakca> s/ment/meant/g   .... and sorry for the long link, ;)
[19:02] <LaserJock> ryanakca: that'd be the Debian component
[19:02] <LaserJock> ryanakca: check on packages.qa.debian.org/k/kiosktool.html
[19:03] <ryanakca> LaserJock: thanks :)
[19:03] <LaserJock> should be "main"
[19:07] <pochu> bah, exaile's upstream ships a debian/ folder...
[19:07] <LaserJock> pochu: is it a good one?
[19:09] <pochu> LaserJock: haven't looked at it as we already have one, why?
[19:10] <LaserJock> it might be useful
[19:10] <LaserJock> sometimes upstreams do a good job with debian/
[19:10] <LaserJock> it's a shame to just toss it
[19:11] <ryanakca> ok, while that one is building, anybody know why 'grab-merges.sh kio-apt' fails? Its listed on MoM.
[19:12] <pochu> LaserJock: heh, looks up-to-date, they even have a PPA: https://edge.launchpad.net/~exaile-devel/+archive
[19:12] <pochu> and they take care of fixes in old releases too :)
[19:13] <LaserJock> ryanakca: works here
[19:15] <ryanakca> LaserJock: hmm... http://paste.ubuntu.com/11467/ ... *tries in a new directory*...
[19:16] <pochu> hmm, they are packaging exaile as a native package...
[19:17] <pochu> so if I can convince them to not do that, we are all done :-)
[19:23] <emgent> heya people
[19:29] <LaserJock> hi emgent
[19:40] <no0tic> anyone willing to sponsor/take a look to a merge? :) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/criticalmass/+bug/229260
[19:41] <pochu> LaserJock: exaile's upstream copied our debian/ dir
[19:43] <geser> no0tic: I would use the new Homepage field and not put it into the description
[19:43] <no0tic> geser, Homepage: in debian/control ?
[19:44] <geser> yes
[19:44] <no0tic> geser, ok, I'm changing it
[19:46] <pochu> bah, so our exaile diff.gz is a diff against upstream's debian/, which is a copy of our old debian/ ...
[19:47] <LaserJock> :-)
[19:47] <pochu> but Debian is repackaging and our diff to their debian/ dir is large...
[19:47] <pochu> so I think I'm going to do as less changes as possible wrt our latest version in the archive, and ask upstream to stop shipping debian/ dir in their tarball (and use diff.gz for their PPA)
[19:48] <pochu> and then see if I can get our changes into Debian
[19:50] <ryanakca> In a chroot for building, I should install build-essential, correct?
[19:50] <LaserJock> sure
[19:51] <LaserJock> usually you can pass the --variant=buildd to debootstrap to do that
[19:52] <ryanakca> LaserJock: ok, thanks. *should probably update the SbuildLVMHowto with that*...
[19:52] <LaserJock> oh
[19:52] <LaserJock> I think it already does that
[19:53] <ryanakca> well, it didn't for intrepid... :( ... however, I don't seem to remember having to do that for Hardy... Has anything changed since then?
[19:53] <LaserJock> not sure
[19:55] <no0tic> geser, done
[20:10] <penper> where can I find information on the available categories?
[20:10] <penper> (available in deb packages I mean)
[20:12] <LaserJock> penper: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections
[20:13] <penper> aha thanks
[20:20] <penper> hmm, how do I make my deb package set up menu shortcuts? Is it something you configure in the control file or is it something you add to the filesystem?
[20:22] <LaserJock> what do you mean by menu shortcuts?
[20:23] <penper> the ones in the gnome-panel menu, e.g. Applications -> Games -> MyGame
[20:24] <LaserJock> ah
[20:24] <LaserJock> that is done with .desktop files
[20:24] <penper> aha okey. Where can I find info on them?
[20:26] <LaserJock> penper: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/menu-spec and http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktop-entry-spec
[20:27] <penper> LaserJock: thanks again :)
[20:59] <norsetto> howdy
[21:00] <emgent> heya norsetto :)
[21:00] <ryanakca> I've merged kiosktool. However, the debdiff between the merged version and the Debian version is 1.7M, the Ubuntu version being 1.6K. Is that normal?
[21:00]  * ryanakca waves to norsetto 
[21:00] <norsetto> emgent: @/
[21:00] <emgent> hahah
[21:00] <emgent> left harm ?
[21:00]  * norsetto has an headache today ....
[21:01] <emgent> s/harm/arm/
[21:01] <norsetto> emgent: always!
[21:01] <LaserJock> ryanakca: what are the versions  you're debdiffing?
[21:04] <ryanakca> LaserJock: Old Ubuntu version 1.0-1.1ubuntu6 vs. new Ubuntu version 1.0-2ubuntu1. Old Debian version 1.0-2 vs. new Ubuntu version
[21:05] <ryanakca> the new Ubuntu version is the version of the merge... it has three small patches, a slightly different changelog and a slightly different control file....
[21:05] <ryanakca> imho, that's all that should be in the Debian vs. Ubuntu debdiff
[21:06] <LaserJock> ryanakca: well, look at the diff and see if anything looks funny
[21:08] <pochu> or do a debdiff old new | diffstat
[21:08] <pochu> and see where's the problem
[21:13] <ryanakca> pochu: looks like a bunch of changes in po/
[21:18] <norsetto> hi ryanakca
[21:20] <norsetto> ryanakca: you can safely delete translations in your debdiff when seeking sponsorship
[21:20] <ryanakca> norsetto: Is there an easy way to do that, or do I need to go in by hand?
[21:22] <norsetto> ryanakca: by hand shouldn't be too difficult. I do remember an utility (something like diffedit or similar) that could be used. You can also use filterdiff
[21:23] <Jazzva> norsetto: I'm done with the gnome-mplayer. It works ok. I will test-build gecko-mediaplayer and then upload both to the bug reports. Will let you know when all is done.
[21:23] <norsetto> jazzva: ok, was everything ok with the new sources?
[21:24] <norsetto> jazzva: (hint)pay particular attention to some of upstream changes
[21:24] <Jazzva> norsetto: Yes. We still need the patch you provided in gnome-mplayer. I just remade it, because of other changes to the patched file.
[21:24] <Jazzva> norsetto: Such as?
[21:25] <norsetto> jazzva: hmmmm, have you checked them?
[21:25] <ryanakca> norsetto: as well as Makefile.in ?
[21:25] <norsetto> ryanakca: was it changed during the merge?
[21:25] <McRib> I submitted bug #228044 a few days ago and the replies seem to suggest it has been fixed.  How do I get the working package installed (using apt still has the bug)?
[21:26] <ryanakca> norsetto: no
[21:26] <norsetto> McRib: that was fixed for intrepid, an sru is being processed to have the fix available in hardy
[21:26] <Jazzva> norsetto: Yes, I took a look at the diff between the current one in the archives, and the new upstream. Mostly changes to po files, some changes to the source code, and the rest are changes to the build files.
[21:26] <McRib> norsetto: Ah.  Is there a way to just download the .so and install it manually?
[21:27] <norsetto> McRib: as soon as is available in hardy-updates (I hope tomorrow) pls. test it and report to the bug if the problem is fixed
[21:27] <ryanakca> norsetto: 35000 lines of translations and fluff only in patch2: unchanged:
[21:27] <norsetto> jazzva: look again, there are some changes which needs to be reflected in the packaging (for both packages)
[21:27] <McRib> norsetto: I will do so.  Thanks for the update :P
[21:27] <norsetto> McRib: np
[21:29]  * norsetto didn't even have time to correct hardy-updates to hardy-proposed
[21:30] <Jazzva> norsetto: I noticed the new doc file in gnome-mplayer, updated the homepage links in debian/. Also, I think that I should change the libxul-dev to firefox-dev for gecko-mediaplayer.
[21:30] <Jazzva> I'll take another look, just to be sure
[21:30] <norsetto> jazzva: yes pls, there is more
[21:31] <norsetto> jazzva: as well as a couple of bugs in the upstream packaging which perhaps somebody already reported and who knows, maybe a fix is already available in the svn ....
[21:32] <Jazzva> norsetto: upstream packaging?
[21:33] <norsetto> Jazzva: yes
[21:33] <Jazzva> norsetto: But they don't provide debian packaging. You mean the build system they use?
[21:33] <norsetto> jazzva: the tarball its the upstream packaging, usually made with a specific target in upstream Makefile(s)
[21:34] <Jazzva> norsetto: Ah, ok...
[21:37] <norsetto> ryanakca: are you sure Makefile.in has not been changed by Debian or upstream? Otherwise it should not be in the debdiff, pls. check again
[21:45]  * ryanakca does wish people wouldn't make inline patches
[21:47]  * norsetto heartily agrees with ryanakca
[21:59] <no0tic> why some packages that seem to need a merge/sync from debian are not listed in MoM? I'm referring to roundcube, for example
[22:01] <RainCT> man.. damn kernel :P
[22:01] <RainCT> (sorry for spamming, but I had to say it :P)
[22:05] <norsetto> no0tic: why should it be listed? There is no ubuntu delta
[22:08] <no0tic> norsetto, so in that case we simply copy the package from sid, right?
[22:09] <norsetto> no0tic: yes, its done automatically until debian-import-freeze
[22:09] <no0tic> norsetto, I'm just trying to figure out how the whole thing works
[22:09] <no0tic> norsetto, thanks
[22:09] <norsetto> no0tic: de nada
[22:12] <no0tic> norsetto, so let me try to synthetize: we have three cases: 1) ubuntu delta, changes already imported in the new package version in sid -> sync 2) ubuntu delta not applied to sid package -> merge 3) no ubuntu delta -> automatic import
[22:12] <no0tic> *summarize :)
[22:13] <norsetto> no0tic: case 1) also includes when the ubuntu delta should be dropped (for whatever reason)
[22:14] <no0tic> norsetto, yes, I forgot that
[22:18] <norsetto> no0tic: sometime you may want to make a sync even if there are still ubuntu changes, for instance, suppose we did few changes in ubuntu, including some small ones, like bumping the standard version. If debian includes the ubuntu changes, but leave out this small changes, its usually not worth keeping a delta, so we just drop them and sync
[22:19] <no0tic> norsetto, can you explain me what "standard version" is?
[22:19] <norsetto> no0tic: its the version of the debian policy which applies to the package
[22:20] <norsetto> no0tic: there is a field in debian/control which specifies it (called Standards-Version IIRC)
[22:20] <no0tic> norsetto, yes, I noticed that field and found packages where this field changed in debian
[22:21]  * norsetto really recommend to read and study the current debian policy
[22:21] <no0tic> norsetto, but I wasn't sure what it meant
[22:22] <ryanakca> can I still request a sync if some of the Depends haven't been merged/sync'd into Ubuntu yet (but they exist Debian & Ubuntu Hardy)?
[22:22] <norsetto> ryanakca: what do you mean? That they haven't yet been built or something else?
[22:25] <ryanakca> norsetto: ok, nevermind, it's just because I haven't enabled universe in my chroot. I thought it was because the updated Debian version hadn't been pulled in :)
[22:37] <sebner> gn8 folks :)
[22:56] <Jazzva> norsetto: I haven't found too much errors in gnome-mplayer. They are shipping binary language files po/*.gmo, but they're also shipped in the archives. I noticed one typo "nonemtpy" in build files, which were generated automatically. I checked the contents of the resulting deb, and everything seem to be installed at the right place.
[22:56] <no0tic> apachelogger, may I take care of pokerth?
[22:56] <apachelogger> no0tic: sure
[22:57] <no0tic> apachelogger, ok
[22:57] <norsetto> Jazzva: even though its not ideal, the gmo files are ok, since the po (the preferred form of modification) are provided
[22:58] <norsetto> Jazzva: I found the following:
[22:58] <norsetto> 1) Document Keyboard Shortcuts in file DOCS/keyboard_shortcuts.txt
[22:59] <norsetto> This I understand you did (including it in debian/docs)
[22:59] <Jazzva> yep
[22:59] <norsetto> Jazzva: 2) Fix install code so that gnome-mplayer.schema is properly installed when installing from source
[22:59] <norsetto> Jazzva: this needs checking, since it was broken what I did with the old package may not work anymore
[23:00] <norsetto> Jazzva: 3) add commandline option "--disablefullscreen", which disables all fullscreen options
[23:00] <Jazzva> 2) You did that in previous rules. It installs to /usr/share/gconf/schemas/
[23:01] <norsetto> Jazzva: yes, it needs to be checked if it still works with the change mdae upstream
[23:01] <Jazzva> norsetto: It is still installed to /usr/share/gconf/schemas/
[23:01] <norsetto> Jazzva: for 3), this needs to be added to debian/gnome-mplayer.1
[23:02] <norsetto> Jazzva: 4) there is a new check in configure.in: AC_CHECK_HEADERS([mntent.h])
[23:03] <norsetto> Jazzva: did you check if we have to add a Build-Depends?
[23:04] <norsetto> jazzva: 5) upstream website changed to "http://code.google.com/p/gnome-mplayer/" this needs to be changed in watch, copyright and control
[23:04] <Jazzva> norsetto: No, I didn't. I thought mntent was provided by them.
[23:04] <Jazzva> norsetto: Ok, 5 is done. I need to do 3.
[23:04] <norsetto> jazzva: then there would not be a need to add a configure check
[23:04] <Jazzva> norsetto: Ok, I'll do that.
[23:05] <norsetto> Jazzva: re 5) also for debian/control?
[23:05] <Jazzva> yep
[23:05] <norsetto> Jazzva: good
[23:05] <norsetto> jazzva: 6) upstream added two new source files, did you check if the license and copyright are ok?
[23:07] <Jazzva> norsetto: Oh, I see.. they're missing headers. I'll send an e-mail upstream, to ask about this.
[23:07] <norsetto> jazzva: well, check if this hasn't been reported already by any chance
[23:08] <Jazzva> norsetto: It wasn't reported on their homepage
[23:08] <norsetto> Jazzva: hmmm, don't they have a bug tracker?
[23:08] <Jazzva> I checked for open bugs on their page, there is one open bug
[23:08] <norsetto> jazzva: well, maybe its closed already
[23:09] <Jazzva> norsetto: Oh, you reported it, and it was closed.
[23:09] <Jazzva> marked as fixed
[23:10] <norsetto> jazzva: right, so, what about patching those source files with the changes as provided in the SVN?
[23:10] <Jazzva> norsetto: Ok.
[23:10] <norsetto> jazzva: for gecko-mediaplayer:
[23:11] <norsetto> Jazzva: 1) same issue for the gconf.schema
[23:11] <norsetto> Jazzva: 2) same issue for the new upstream website
[23:12] <norsetto> Jazzva: 3) did you see in the ChangeLog that they added a file: DOCS/tech/javascript.txt ?
[23:12] <Jazzva> norsetto: I still have to take another look at that one.
[23:12] <Jazzva> norsetto: 3 - I noticed it's missing
[23:12] <Jazzva> Well, the whole DOCS folder with that one file
[23:12] <norsetto> jazzva: right, so, again, check with upstream
[23:12] <norsetto> Jazzva: perhaps some sob already reported it
[23:13] <norsetto> Jazzva: one last thing, we should change the Depends from the metapackage to firefox-3.0 | firefox-2
[23:14] <norsetto> jazzva: this is a new change, to be compatible with FF 2 (as for mozilla-mplayer)
[23:14] <Jazzva> Right...
[23:14] <norsetto> Jazzva: it would be good if an sru is made with this change alone btw
[23:14] <Jazzva> Ok, I'll prepare one :).
[23:14] <norsetto> jazzva: :-)
[23:15] <norsetto> jazzva: once you are happy, build and check if everything looks ok, install (check if the schema files are installed correctly) and check if everything is working, ok?
[23:17] <Jazzva> norsetto: Ok. I'll report to you tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to sleep now, have to get some rest for school and work :).
[23:17] <norsetto> Jazzva: thx, you are doing great! A remaining concern I have is if it will work with gcc-4.3, we may need to patch and eventually report upstream
[23:18] <Jazzva> norsetto: Thanks :).
[23:18] <norsetto> jazzva: btw, do we have a formal team which is looking at mozilla extensions?
[23:19] <Jazzva> norsetto: Yes, mozilla-extensions-dev.
[23:19]  * norsetto checks
[23:20] <norsetto> Jazzva: I think it will be a good idea to add gecko-mediaplayer to the list, you may also want to change maintainership
[23:21] <Jazzva> Ok, I'll check with asac tomorrow :).
[23:22] <Jazzva> I'm off now. See you later...
[23:22] <norsetto> Jazzva: the only problem is that this goes hand-in-hand with gnome-mplayer, which would not pertain to that list
[23:22] <norsetto> Jazzva: ok, good night then
[23:23] <Jazzva> norsetto: Sorry... Can we talk about that tomorrow :)?
[23:23] <norsetto> Jazzva: its already tomorrow :-)
[23:25] <Jazzva> norsetto: I still call it today until I go to bed, and tomorrow starts when I wake up. Can't get rid of that habit. I have it for a long time.
[23:25] <Jazzva> :)
[23:35] <norsetto> g'night all
[23:42] <dabaR> Octopus: foreach(array('bl', 'ah', 'stuff') as $field_name){ if($_POST[$field_name])...}