[00:22] <dijenerate> hi guys
[00:23] <dijenerate> GrueMaster: howdy
[00:23] <GrueMaster> hey.
[00:24] <dijenerate> question, is the tiny atom based prototype you have about the size of a nokia N800?
[00:25] <GrueMaster> very close.
[00:25] <dijenerate> and the power requirements are also close
[00:25] <GrueMaster> not sure.  I have no specs on the system.  
[00:26] <GrueMaster> Other than it uses atom and i'm running Linux on it.
[00:26] <dijenerate> so atom based systems can technically fit into the same footprint as 'arm' based PDAs
[00:26] <GrueMaster> getting there, yes.
[00:27] <dijenerate> 'almost'
[00:28] <GrueMaster> http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/02/video-lenovos-ideapad-u8-mid-teases-with-intels-atom/
[00:28] <dijenerate> I just saw the Aigo MID unboxing video and realized the battery is a 3.7V 2700MaH that manages to last 2.5hrs on an x86 machine
[00:28] <GrueMaster> That's one sample.  
[00:28] <dijenerate> I think I've found the point of the Centrino Atom!
[00:40] <dijenerate> only question now is, can they run completely enclosed like 'arm' systems can?
[00:41] <dijenerate> or do they still have 'stalker' fans
[00:41] <dijenerate> lol
[00:43] <GrueMaster> The unit I have has a very small fan on it that only kicks in under load.  Yea, it's warmer than a PDA, but considering the technology, it's not bad.
[00:46] <dijenerate> does it support AMD64 instructions like the Core2 does?
[00:46] <dijenerate> CPU-Z reports the Atom as a Core2 Silverthorne
[00:47] <GrueMaster> no.  YOu hardly need it for desktop, why would you want it now for a unit the size of a psp?
[00:49] <GrueMaster> The main benifit to x86-64 is memory addressing.  SO-Dimms aren't that small yet.
[00:55] <dijenerate> ok
[00:55] <dijenerate> the CPU is really a lot of smoke and mirrors when compared to a desktop CPU
[00:56] <dijenerate> like being unable to handle rvmb encoded files at 644 x 488 881kbps without CPU usage hitting 100%
[00:58] <dijenerate> but an mpeg4 avi at 512x388 25fps 539kbps plays smoothly at 40~50% CPU usage
[00:58] <GrueMaster> what is rvmb?
[00:59] <dijenerate> that makes no sense mathematically considering what each format requires of the CPU but when you consider that there are dedicated mpeg4 decoding registers in the silverthorne
[00:59] <GrueMaster> And do you have any sample videos?
[00:59] <dijenerate> along with mp3, mpeg2 and mpeg1 among others, the plot thickens
[00:59] <dijenerate> real one HD format
[00:59] <GrueMaster> I've been playing some of the 1080i VC1 videos from Microsoft, and they look great.  10% cpu usage.
[00:59] <GrueMaster> Mainly for i/o
[01:01] <dijenerate> dedicated registers
[01:01] <GrueMaster> yep.
[01:01] <dijenerate> supporting flash etc
[01:01] <dijenerate> so the main CPU registers don't have to do the math
[01:01] <dijenerate> that is cheating tho'
[01:02] <GrueMaster> How?  Most video cards do hardware decoding.
[01:02] <GrueMaster> nVidia and ATI both do that.
[01:02] <dijenerate> gives good looking results when running layman demos, that and using the Centrino name seems a bit dishonest
[01:02] <GrueMaster> Centrino Atom.  There's a difference.
[01:03] <GrueMaster> Centrino is a name that defines a wireless mobile platform.
[01:03] <dijenerate> yes because it makes sense to save energy
[01:03] <dijenerate> but not because the video card's GPU can't do it
[01:03] <GrueMaster> And that is a bad thing?
[01:04] <dijenerate> but in this case the Atom can't
[01:04] <GrueMaster> Can't what?
[01:04] <GrueMaster> Last fall when I only had 2D drivers and software decoders, I could still do 1080i video, just with higher cpu utilization.
[01:04] <dijenerate> yeah, originally, but users of the old Centrino line have come to expect a certain amount of performance... intel is banking on that
[01:05] <dijenerate> it's not the graphics chipset I'm talking about
[01:05] <GrueMaster> Again, for what?  YOu are assuming this is for high performance computing, which it is not.
[01:06] <dijenerate> the CPU can't handle it
[01:06] <dijenerate> if it had to do it conventionally, it would shoot up to 100% in no time
[01:06] <dijenerate> but there is a specific application I can think of that can benefit from the Atom
[01:06] <dijenerate> because of how close it is to the 'arm' platform
[01:07] <GrueMaster> With the wireless world, one of the design ideas for this is as a remote terminal.  If you are travelling and you need to do some high powered number crunching, you can remote into your desktop system at home or work.
[01:07] <dijenerate> I know, you have said this before, but a celeron is not for high performance computing either and still outperforms this
[01:07] <dijenerate> which means that you could just as easily go 'arm'
[01:07] <GrueMaster> But how many Centrino platforms do you see today that can perform like a cell phone?
[01:07] <dijenerate> this is where I have the conflict...
[01:08] <dijenerate> it does everything 'arm' already does but can't do the things that x86 has done for ages without 'cheats' like dedicated registers
[01:08] <GrueMaster> Have you seen the video on moblin.org?  While the systems in the video are mostly mockups, they are pretty close.
[01:09] <dijenerate> so if it isn't intended for high performance computing 'read: x86's domain' why not just use 'arm'
[01:10] <GrueMaster> One of the issues with arm is the total web experience.  currently, there are ~12% of the plugins needed for most web sites available to arm, whereas there is ~80% available to x86 Linux.
[01:11] <dijenerate> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJIymS3YdOo
[01:12] <GrueMaster> Also, try running Linux AND windows on an arm simultaneously.
[01:12] <dijenerate> this shows up the dedicated registers since there are none for the real video
[01:12] <GrueMaster> Of course, no one in this forum cares about windows.
[01:12] <dijenerate> we can see how weak the atom really is
[01:13] <dijenerate> that is a good point
[01:13] <dijenerate> so for x86 plugin support yes it is good
[01:13] <GrueMaster> But again, you are leaving power out of the equation.
[01:14] <dijenerate> but since the days when I did zaurus development, I wondered why plugins weren't just ported to 'arm'
[01:14] <GrueMaster> The lowest powered mobile processor is currently ~25w.  This is ~3w.
[01:14] <dijenerate> they were ported to powerpc
[01:14] <dijenerate> my core solo is ~5W
[01:14] <dijenerate> what are you talking about
[01:14] <dijenerate> and the C7M is 7W
[01:15] <dijenerate> the AMD geode is somewhere in that vicinity as well
[01:15] <GrueMaster> The AMD is under powered in comparison.  I have seen those benchmarks.
[01:15] <dijenerate> actually the Geode is a good example of what low power x86 should look like
[01:15] <dijenerate> it's also very old
[01:16] <GrueMaster> at any rate, it's beer time here on a hot Friday afternoon.
[01:16] <dijenerate> so unless the atom blows it away, the comparison is something for intel to be ashamed of
[01:16] <dijenerate> ok, np
[01:16] <dijenerate> thanks for the time to discuss this with me
[01:16] <dijenerate> ttyl
[01:16] <dijenerate> !taking
[01:17] <GrueMaster> Not necessarily.  The Atom is a partial core redesign, which means it almost is completely new architecture.
[01:17] <GrueMaster> Not bad for a first attempt.
[01:18] <GrueMaster> And I've been working with Intel processors since the first P6.  I know how they can be.
[01:18] <GrueMaster> later.
[01:19] <dijenerate> thing is intel hasn't really done a 'from scratch' core design since the Pentium M days, and now they licence AMD's tech, I have little respect for them these days
[01:19] <dijenerate> so most of these 'new' processors don't count as first attempts in my books
[01:19] <dijenerate> innovation begins with A these days not I
[01:20] <dijenerate> what intel has over AMD is way better marketing, they are so good they even believe their own hype
[02:07] <dijenerate> silly question, what's the difference between the menlow crownbeach and the standard menlow image
[02:08] <dijenerate> I'm having this random looping problem with menlow when i try to run it on a core solo GMA950 based device
[17:44] <Zic> lool: ping
[17:53] <Zic> (it does not concern directly Ubuntu Mobile, if you can query me when you are here, it will be cool :))