[09:15] <kwwii> moin moin
[09:15] <DanaG> Huh?
[09:15] <DanaG> Random: /me is a unicode addict:
[09:15] <DanaG> ﻿Running with ✂.  And throwing ﻿✈ at stuff.  I ♥ Unicode!
[09:15] <kwwii> :-)
[09:16] <DanaG> Oh, what fun can be had in gucharmap.
[09:16] <DanaG> And in the scim-tables-additional "LATEX" table.
[14:15] <nothlit`core> kwwii: cory's looking for you btw
[17:36] <thebishop> hello
[17:36] <thebishop> to what extent is Ubuntu reaching out to the DeviantArt and/or Flickr communities?
[17:44] <troy_s> thebishop: This isn't about DeviantArt nor Flickr.
[17:46] <thebishop> its about ubuntu artwork, right?
[17:48] <thebishop> i was talking to some graphic designers over the weekend and they are all OSX/Photoshop users.  with so many FOSS projects in need of more attractive artwork, it seems those social networks could help a lot
[18:29] <troy_s> thebishop: No, it is not.
[18:29] <troy_s> thebishop: The issue of which you speak is execution.
[18:29] <troy_s> thebishop: Execution is a far ways along the line.
[18:30] <troy_s> thebishop: Before execution, one must have the proper environment to permit execution to happen.
[18:31] <thebishop> i'm not sure i follow
[18:31] <troy_s> thebishop: And that is part of the problem.
[18:32] <troy_s> thebishop:  1) "in need of more attractive artwork"  More attractive -- define?
[18:32] <troy_s> 2) Even if you arrive at a satisfactory answer, the following question would be "Is it desired?"
[18:33] <thebishop> you don't think there's a perception that Ubuntu and/or linux in general is still fairly bland to look at?  Compiz notwithstanding
[18:34] <thebishop> i show it to my friends and they thing the effects are cool, but widgets, window borders and icons need improvement
[18:35] <troy_s> thebishop: That is a rather grossly oversimplified statement.
[18:35] <thebishop> "improvement"
[18:35] <thebishop> ?
[18:35] <troy_s> thebishop: Improvement.  Again, it isn't that I disagree with you, but you seem to think that it is a simple thing to 1) achieve 2) implement given a particular culture.
[18:35] <troy_s> thebishop: It is a vacuous term.
[18:35] <thebishop> i never said that
[18:36] <thebishop> more what i'm getting at is making Ubuntu/gnu/linux an attractive platform for artists the way it is currently a very attractive platform for coders
[18:36] <troy_s> thebishop: Ok... _now_ you are speaking more clearly
[18:37] <troy_s> thebishop: But you also said "Ubuntu", which would be Ubuntu 'main' correct?
[18:37] <thebishop> which may also have the upstream benefit of more icon sets, themes, UI ideas, etc being available to everyone
[18:38] <troy_s> thebishop: That is more dealt with by the 'is it desired' question.  ;)  Remember, the bulk of the developers and such are quite happy with Tango.
[18:38] <thebishop> and Tango doesn't go away if other options are available
[18:39] <thebishop> i certainly don't think Tango is bad
[18:39] <troy_s> thebishop: Sure.  And to that end there is nothing stopping you from developing an icon set.
[18:39] <thebishop> i'm a coder, not an graphic designer
[18:40] <troy_s> thebishop: That probably makes things more difficult.
[18:40] <troy_s> thebishop: So I guess we have "improvement" that would be directed at someone.
[18:41] <thebishop> right, which brings us back to the original question
[18:41] <troy_s> thebishop: a UI idea that is directed at someone
[18:41] <thebishop> is there any outreach to the big social networks for artwork
[18:41] <troy_s> thebishop: and an icon set that is both directed at someone _and_ that someone else will need to complete.
[18:42] <troy_s> thebishop: You still are missing the point unfortunately.  1) There is nothing stopping you from creating something / reaching out / etc.
[18:42] <troy_s> thebishop: 2) There is the question of audience.  Who is this for?  Will it work?  As well as other complications.
[18:42] <troy_s> thebishop: 3) The question of whether or not the people who own and run the projects desire it.
[18:43] <troy_s> thebishop: See a few problems / complications yet?
[18:43] <thebishop> so long as the projects in question are theme-able and most of them are, it doesn't really matter if the maintainers/owners/contributers want it
[18:43] <thebishop> and this is Free Software we're talking about
[18:44] <thebishop> so "own" is a somewhat relative concept
[18:45] <troy_s> thebishop: Sure... and that gets you back to my other statement.  "Go forth and create"
[18:45] <thebishop> i think some organization would be more effective than an individual
[18:46] <troy_s> thebishop: Then establish it.
[18:46] <troy_s> thebishop: I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the simplicity that you wish to see is simply non existent.
[18:46] <thebishop> some already exist (Ubuntu art, Canonical, etc)
[18:46] <thebishop> it seems like a question of marketing more than a technical issue
[18:47] <thebishop> which has been a traditional weakness of Free Software
[18:47] <thebishop> which is partly why such organizations are developed
[18:49] <troy_s> thebishop:  And yet ubuntu grows at a tremendous pace regardless.
[18:50] <thebishop> and that's great
[18:50] <thebishop> but who is it attracting?
[18:55] <troy_s> thebishop: Now you are starting to sound like me... ;)
[18:56] <thebishop> ?
[18:56] <DanaG> I use the Tangerine icons, myself.
[18:56] <troy_s> thebishop: I couldn't answer your question for a start.
[18:57] <troy_s> thebishop: I'd like to help you out, but thus far, I don't have anything concrete to help with.
[18:57] <thebishop> well, there isn't an concrete answer
[18:57] <thebishop> and i find coders generally don't want to talk about nontechnical questions
[18:58] <troy_s> thebishop: Ok.
[18:59] <thebishop> but i think if you look at Free Software, generally coders use it, so as a result, its generally secure, well-designed, robust featureset, etc
[19:00] <thebishop> if more artists, musicians, directors, used it, we'd probably find those areas of the experience improve as well
 if more artists, musicians, directors, used it, we'd probably find those areas of the experience improve as well
[19:20] <troy_s> Amen.
[19:21] <troy_s> thebishop: Better still, you gain the allegiance of some powerful and influential subcultures.
[19:21] <thebishop> troy_s, so what do you think would convince creative-types to move from OSX to Ubuntu?
[19:21] <troy_s> thebishop: Well they have... remember that about 99.9% of your top Hollywood box office hits were created on a Free Software platforms.
[19:22] <troy_s> thebishop: The problem is that the tools are in-house (as they are with the video game industry as well)
[19:22] <troy_s> thebishop: So it is two pronged.  1) tools.  2) posture.
[19:22] <thebishop> what sort of posture?
[19:22] <troy_s> thebishop: How open to the culture you appear -- which is what I believe you are, in the end, getting at.
[19:23] <thebishop> that's certainly part of it
[19:23] <troy_s> thebishop: Apple did / does a tremendous job of talking to that audience demographic.
[19:23] <thebishop> but i think we have to be more proactive
[19:23] <thebishop> right
[19:23] <troy_s> thebishop: Being proactive is a good thing.  Again though, what you speak of is hideously complicated.  Ubuntu _also_ desperately needs developers and developer support.
[19:24] <troy_s> thebishop: One could probably suggest that a 'remix' would work to this end -- in this case it would probably be Ubuntu Studio.
[19:25] <troy_s> thebishop: It all starts and ends with audience.
[19:26] <troy_s> thebishop: Right now, I believe we are going through the growing pains of learning that.  I have harped on and ranted about it for god knows how long.
[19:26] <troy_s> thebishop: Unfortunately, it is something that people of the brain smarts that we have in our culture (extremely high) can't be told.  They must learn it for themselves.
[19:27] <thebishop> the problem i see with ubuntu studio is that its designed to be overly utilitarian.  It makes total sense running Ardour as barebones as possible, but i think people want to work in a an environment that is visually appealing
[19:28] <thebishop> ubuntu studio is the kind of thing you'd use in a production environment, not on your personal machine
[19:28] <troy_s> thebishop: A rather big "I think" in there.  I honestly don't know.
[19:28] <troy_s> Greetings thorwil
[19:28] <thorwil> hi troy_s
[19:29] <thorwil> heh, my personal machine is my production environment :)
[19:29] <thebishop> heh
[19:29] <thebishop> gnome-terminal is my production environment
[19:30] <thebishop> i don't mean to put responsibility or blame on anyone, but i do think we're getting the point where technical competency isn't the bottleneck
[19:31] <thebishop> there are problem non-coders who would be interested in facilitating these kinds of "postures"
[19:31] <thebishop> :s/problem/probably
[19:32] <thebishop> but for instance, mentioning what new features people want in Gimp can be a volatile conversation
[19:33] <troy_s> thebishop: And that gets back to culture.
[19:33] <troy_s> thebishop: It is one thing going from a culture where everyone is the culmination of scratching one's own itches to being responsive to the itches of others.
[19:34] <thebishop> definitely
[19:35] <thebishop> maybe there's a way to give nontechnical people tools to scratch their own itches, and also contribute back to the community
[19:36] <thebishop> things like Screenlets for example
[21:46] <Mariux> hi there
[21:46] <troy_s> Hello Mariux
[21:48] <Mariux> hi troy_s
[21:48] <Mariux> maybe you can help me
[21:48] <Mariux> i just subscribed the artwork mailing list
[21:48] <Mariux> and now i want to create a Wiki page about me
[21:48] <Mariux> how can i do this?
[21:49] <troy_s> Mariux: Very easily.
[21:49] <troy_s> Mariux: What is your Launchpad ID?
[21:49] <Mariux> i've no Launchpad ID
[21:50] <Mariux> do i need one?
[21:50] <Mariux> how can i get it?
[21:50] <troy_s> Mariux: Yes.  It will be what you logon to the Wiki using as well.
[21:50] <troy_s> Mariux: Start by going to the Wiki to see if it is still set up with the Launchpad IDs...
[21:50] <troy_s> Mariux: http://wiki.ubuntu.com
[21:51] <Mariux> well but if i subscribed the mailing list using my email and then i'll use the same for launchpad can it works?
[21:53] <troy_s> Mariux: It should.
[21:53] <troy_s> Mariux: Just try logging into the Wiki
[21:55] <Mariux> logging using my launchpad id?
[21:55] <Mariux> or my email?
[21:55] <troy_s> Mariux: Go to the wiki, and try to logon.  When it doesn't let you, sign up for an account.  It will do the rest.
[21:56] <troy_s> Mariux:  in the past, it made you sign up at launchpad.
[21:56] <troy_s> Mariux: I suspect it still will.
[21:56] <Mariux> well but i already have an id on the wiki
[21:56] <Mariux> that is Mariux3
[21:56] <troy_s> Mariux: Then go to the page that you wish to create -- usually via launchpad it will be something like FirstnameLastname
[21:57] <troy_s> so http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MariuxLastname
[21:57] <Mariux> oh cool
[21:57] <Mariux> nice
[21:57] <troy_s> Mariux: Then simply click 'create page' and carry on.
[21:57] <Mariux> THX:-D
[21:58] <Mariux> only one question
[21:58] <Mariux> if i want to logout as Mariux3 and login as Mariux how can i do this?
[21:58] <troy_s> Mariux: Uh... when you created your user name did you try Mariux?
[21:58] <troy_s> Mariux: If you did, and it was taken, you can't change your logon.  That would be a different account.
[21:59] <Mariux> ah ok
[21:59] <Mariux> probably mariux was already gone
[21:59] <Mariux> thx ;-)
[22:00] <troy_s> Mariux: Well try it.
[22:00] <troy_s> Mariux: if it is taken, it will tell you.
[22:00] <Mariux> but where can i logout?
[22:01] <Mariux> sorry i can't find it
[22:02] <troy_s> Mariux: It's ok.
[22:02] <troy_s> Mariux: Top right generally on Ubuntu related places
[22:02] <troy_s> Mariux: But it isn't exactly a consistent place... just look around.
[22:03] <Mariux> ok thx
[22:04] <Mariux> maybe i have to clear the cookies
[22:04] <troy_s> Mariux: No... it shouldn't need it unless you set your browser to autologon.
[22:05] <Mariux> yeah autologon  is set
[22:05] <Mariux> everytime i open the wiki i'm logged as mariux3
[22:06] <troy_s> Mariux: Hrm... under 'User Preferences" at the bottom above "First Time"
[22:06] <troy_s> Mariux: Is the 'logout' button (great design)
[22:07] <Mariux> ahahah ok thx
[22:07] <Mariux> didn't see it
[22:07] <Mariux> ;_)
[22:07] <Mariux> thx again troy_s!!!!!!
[22:07] <troy_s> Mariux: No problem friend.
[22:11] <Mariux> only one thing
[22:11] <Mariux> what is a wikiname?
[22:11] <troy_s> Mariux: A term used to reference a wiki page.
[22:12] <troy_s> Mariux: CamelCase works... as do underscores for spaces
[22:12] <troy_s> Mariux: For example Space_Between or CamelCase
[22:12] <Mariux> no ok
[22:12] <troy_s> Mariux: That help?
[22:12] <Mariux> well
[22:13] <Mariux> so my username can be Mariux4 and my wikiname Mariux?
[22:13] <Mariux> is this?
[22:13] <troy_s> Your username isn't terribly relevant Mariux
[22:13] <troy_s> Mariux: Your home page name is generally something like MariuxLastname
[22:13] <troy_s> Mariux: Look at what Launchpad has attempted to autoset for you.
[22:14] <troy_s> Mariux: But FirstnameLastname works
[22:14] <troy_s> Mariux: Any other questions?  I must bolt out to get a new jar of India ink.
[22:15] <Mariux> so if it's autoset to Mariux4 i have to create the wikipage Mariux4
[22:15] <Mariux> correct?