[09:15] moin moin [09:15] Huh? [09:15] Random: /me is a unicode addict: [09:15] Running with ✂. And throwing ✈ at stuff. I ♥ Unicode! [09:15] :-) [09:16] Oh, what fun can be had in gucharmap. [09:16] And in the scim-tables-additional "LATEX" table. === elkbuntu is now known as elky [14:15] kwwii: cory's looking for you btw [17:36] hello [17:36] to what extent is Ubuntu reaching out to the DeviantArt and/or Flickr communities? [17:44] thebishop: This isn't about DeviantArt nor Flickr. [17:46] its about ubuntu artwork, right? [17:48] i was talking to some graphic designers over the weekend and they are all OSX/Photoshop users. with so many FOSS projects in need of more attractive artwork, it seems those social networks could help a lot [18:29] thebishop: No, it is not. [18:29] thebishop: The issue of which you speak is execution. [18:29] thebishop: Execution is a far ways along the line. [18:30] thebishop: Before execution, one must have the proper environment to permit execution to happen. [18:31] i'm not sure i follow [18:31] thebishop: And that is part of the problem. [18:32] thebishop: 1) "in need of more attractive artwork" More attractive -- define? [18:32] 2) Even if you arrive at a satisfactory answer, the following question would be "Is it desired?" [18:33] you don't think there's a perception that Ubuntu and/or linux in general is still fairly bland to look at? Compiz notwithstanding [18:34] i show it to my friends and they thing the effects are cool, but widgets, window borders and icons need improvement [18:35] thebishop: That is a rather grossly oversimplified statement. [18:35] "improvement" [18:35] ? [18:35] thebishop: Improvement. Again, it isn't that I disagree with you, but you seem to think that it is a simple thing to 1) achieve 2) implement given a particular culture. [18:35] thebishop: It is a vacuous term. [18:35] i never said that [18:36] more what i'm getting at is making Ubuntu/gnu/linux an attractive platform for artists the way it is currently a very attractive platform for coders [18:36] thebishop: Ok... _now_ you are speaking more clearly [18:37] thebishop: But you also said "Ubuntu", which would be Ubuntu 'main' correct? [18:37] which may also have the upstream benefit of more icon sets, themes, UI ideas, etc being available to everyone [18:38] thebishop: That is more dealt with by the 'is it desired' question. ;) Remember, the bulk of the developers and such are quite happy with Tango. [18:38] and Tango doesn't go away if other options are available [18:39] i certainly don't think Tango is bad [18:39] thebishop: Sure. And to that end there is nothing stopping you from developing an icon set. [18:39] i'm a coder, not an graphic designer [18:40] thebishop: That probably makes things more difficult. [18:40] thebishop: So I guess we have "improvement" that would be directed at someone. [18:41] right, which brings us back to the original question [18:41] thebishop: a UI idea that is directed at someone [18:41] is there any outreach to the big social networks for artwork [18:41] thebishop: and an icon set that is both directed at someone _and_ that someone else will need to complete. [18:42] thebishop: You still are missing the point unfortunately. 1) There is nothing stopping you from creating something / reaching out / etc. [18:42] thebishop: 2) There is the question of audience. Who is this for? Will it work? As well as other complications. [18:42] thebishop: 3) The question of whether or not the people who own and run the projects desire it. [18:43] thebishop: See a few problems / complications yet? [18:43] so long as the projects in question are theme-able and most of them are, it doesn't really matter if the maintainers/owners/contributers want it [18:43] and this is Free Software we're talking about [18:44] so "own" is a somewhat relative concept [18:45] thebishop: Sure... and that gets you back to my other statement. "Go forth and create" [18:45] i think some organization would be more effective than an individual [18:46] thebishop: Then establish it. [18:46] thebishop: I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the simplicity that you wish to see is simply non existent. [18:46] some already exist (Ubuntu art, Canonical, etc) [18:46] it seems like a question of marketing more than a technical issue [18:47] which has been a traditional weakness of Free Software [18:47] which is partly why such organizations are developed [18:49] thebishop: And yet ubuntu grows at a tremendous pace regardless. [18:50] and that's great [18:50] but who is it attracting? [18:55] thebishop: Now you are starting to sound like me... ;) [18:56] ? [18:56] I use the Tangerine icons, myself. [18:56] thebishop: I couldn't answer your question for a start. [18:57] thebishop: I'd like to help you out, but thus far, I don't have anything concrete to help with. [18:57] well, there isn't an concrete answer [18:57] and i find coders generally don't want to talk about nontechnical questions [18:58] thebishop: Ok. [18:59] but i think if you look at Free Software, generally coders use it, so as a result, its generally secure, well-designed, robust featureset, etc [19:00] if more artists, musicians, directors, used it, we'd probably find those areas of the experience improve as well [19:20] if more artists, musicians, directors, used it, we'd probably find those areas of the experience improve as well [19:20] Amen. [19:21] thebishop: Better still, you gain the allegiance of some powerful and influential subcultures. [19:21] troy_s, so what do you think would convince creative-types to move from OSX to Ubuntu? [19:21] thebishop: Well they have... remember that about 99.9% of your top Hollywood box office hits were created on a Free Software platforms. [19:22] thebishop: The problem is that the tools are in-house (as they are with the video game industry as well) [19:22] thebishop: So it is two pronged. 1) tools. 2) posture. [19:22] what sort of posture? [19:22] thebishop: How open to the culture you appear -- which is what I believe you are, in the end, getting at. [19:23] that's certainly part of it [19:23] thebishop: Apple did / does a tremendous job of talking to that audience demographic. [19:23] but i think we have to be more proactive [19:23] right [19:23] thebishop: Being proactive is a good thing. Again though, what you speak of is hideously complicated. Ubuntu _also_ desperately needs developers and developer support. [19:24] thebishop: One could probably suggest that a 'remix' would work to this end -- in this case it would probably be Ubuntu Studio. [19:25] thebishop: It all starts and ends with audience. [19:26] thebishop: Right now, I believe we are going through the growing pains of learning that. I have harped on and ranted about it for god knows how long. [19:26] thebishop: Unfortunately, it is something that people of the brain smarts that we have in our culture (extremely high) can't be told. They must learn it for themselves. [19:27] the problem i see with ubuntu studio is that its designed to be overly utilitarian. It makes total sense running Ardour as barebones as possible, but i think people want to work in a an environment that is visually appealing [19:28] ubuntu studio is the kind of thing you'd use in a production environment, not on your personal machine [19:28] thebishop: A rather big "I think" in there. I honestly don't know. [19:28] Greetings thorwil [19:28] hi troy_s [19:29] heh, my personal machine is my production environment :) [19:29] heh [19:29] gnome-terminal is my production environment [19:30] i don't mean to put responsibility or blame on anyone, but i do think we're getting the point where technical competency isn't the bottleneck [19:31] there are problem non-coders who would be interested in facilitating these kinds of "postures" [19:31] :s/problem/probably [19:32] but for instance, mentioning what new features people want in Gimp can be a volatile conversation === nand_ is now known as nand [19:33] thebishop: And that gets back to culture. [19:33] thebishop: It is one thing going from a culture where everyone is the culmination of scratching one's own itches to being responsive to the itches of others. [19:34] definitely [19:35] maybe there's a way to give nontechnical people tools to scratch their own itches, and also contribute back to the community [19:36] things like Screenlets for example [21:46] hi there [21:46] Hello Mariux [21:48] hi troy_s [21:48] maybe you can help me [21:48] i just subscribed the artwork mailing list [21:48] and now i want to create a Wiki page about me [21:48] how can i do this? [21:49] Mariux: Very easily. [21:49] Mariux: What is your Launchpad ID? [21:49] i've no Launchpad ID [21:50] do i need one? [21:50] how can i get it? [21:50] Mariux: Yes. It will be what you logon to the Wiki using as well. [21:50] Mariux: Start by going to the Wiki to see if it is still set up with the Launchpad IDs... [21:50] Mariux: http://wiki.ubuntu.com [21:51] well but if i subscribed the mailing list using my email and then i'll use the same for launchpad can it works? [21:53] Mariux: It should. [21:53] Mariux: Just try logging into the Wiki [21:55] logging using my launchpad id? [21:55] or my email? [21:55] Mariux: Go to the wiki, and try to logon. When it doesn't let you, sign up for an account. It will do the rest. [21:56] Mariux: in the past, it made you sign up at launchpad. [21:56] Mariux: I suspect it still will. [21:56] well but i already have an id on the wiki [21:56] that is Mariux3 [21:56] Mariux: Then go to the page that you wish to create -- usually via launchpad it will be something like FirstnameLastname [21:57] so http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MariuxLastname [21:57] oh cool [21:57] nice [21:57] Mariux: Then simply click 'create page' and carry on. [21:57] THX:-D [21:58] only one question [21:58] if i want to logout as Mariux3 and login as Mariux how can i do this? [21:58] Mariux: Uh... when you created your user name did you try Mariux? [21:58] Mariux: If you did, and it was taken, you can't change your logon. That would be a different account. [21:59] ah ok [21:59] probably mariux was already gone [21:59] thx ;-) [22:00] Mariux: Well try it. [22:00] Mariux: if it is taken, it will tell you. [22:00] but where can i logout? [22:01] sorry i can't find it [22:02] Mariux: It's ok. [22:02] Mariux: Top right generally on Ubuntu related places [22:02] Mariux: But it isn't exactly a consistent place... just look around. [22:03] ok thx [22:04] maybe i have to clear the cookies [22:04] Mariux: No... it shouldn't need it unless you set your browser to autologon. [22:05] yeah autologon is set [22:05] everytime i open the wiki i'm logged as mariux3 [22:06] Mariux: Hrm... under 'User Preferences" at the bottom above "First Time" [22:06] Mariux: Is the 'logout' button (great design) [22:07] ahahah ok thx [22:07] didn't see it [22:07] ;_) [22:07] thx again troy_s!!!!!! [22:07] Mariux: No problem friend. [22:11] only one thing [22:11] what is a wikiname? [22:11] Mariux: A term used to reference a wiki page. [22:12] Mariux: CamelCase works... as do underscores for spaces [22:12] Mariux: For example Space_Between or CamelCase [22:12] no ok [22:12] Mariux: That help? [22:12] well [22:13] so my username can be Mariux4 and my wikiname Mariux? [22:13] is this? [22:13] Your username isn't terribly relevant Mariux [22:13] Mariux: Your home page name is generally something like MariuxLastname [22:13] Mariux: Look at what Launchpad has attempted to autoset for you. [22:14] Mariux: But FirstnameLastname works [22:14] Mariux: Any other questions? I must bolt out to get a new jar of India ink. [22:15] so if it's autoset to Mariux4 i have to create the wikipage Mariux4 [22:15] correct?