[01:06] <elkbuntu> ompaul, zewb is a ban evader to the extreme
[01:10] <Seeker`> wow, has anyone else read Seveas' blog post?
[01:11] <PriceChild> Seeker`: read the rest of planet
[01:15] <Daviey> Seeker`: it's not wow, it bloody disgusting
[01:16] <Seeker`> "wow" as in "i'm amazed that someone would make a post like that"
[01:17]  * Daviey knew this
[01:18] <Gary> I won't comment
[01:18] <PriceChild> Gary: I think you just did :D
[01:19] <Gary> I didn't :p
[01:19] <Seeker`> I would like to know what Seveas suggests as an alternative
[01:20] <PriceChild> there you go again!
[01:20] <Daviey> Gary: "no comment" is similar to saying guilty sir :)
[01:20] <Seeker`> Its the staff's network, they can do what they want
[01:20] <Gary> I like Daviey's comment :-D
[01:20] <Seeker`> the only alternative I can think of is to start a new server, which will be a hell of a lot more difficult
[01:21] <PriceChild> Seeker`: or move to oftc
[01:21] <elkbuntu> which of course worked so well for debian
[01:21] <Seeker`> from what I understand, the people who are unhappy with freenode wont be happy unless everything is run the way they want
[01:21] <Seeker`> and that wont happen unless they run the network
[01:23] <Gary> and running the network is not as easy as it looks
[01:24] <Seeker`> yes, I can imagine
[01:24] <Seeker`> people complain about the ops workload at the moment
[01:24] <Seeker`> to run a network, there would need to be a new set of people to be "staff"
[01:25] <Seeker`> as well as the existing number of ops
[01:25] <Gary> and then the arguments start all over again...
[01:25] <Seeker`> exactly
[01:25] <Seeker`> because it would seem that being staff and being an op is a conflict of interest
[01:26] <Gary> sadly it can be
[01:26] <Gary> but it can work together well too
[01:26] <Gary> it needs both parties to understand the limitations
[01:27] <Seeker`> agreed, it is other people that I have seen saying that it is a conflict of interest
[01:28] <Daviey> on a technical level freenode handles the traffic we push at it well and is one of the more stable irc networks i am on
[01:28] <Seeker`> Daviey: Yeah, ubuntu is the biggest group on here
[01:29] <Daviey> i think more people need to realise that it's /just/ irc :(
[01:29] <Gary> Daviey: yeah
[01:29] <Seeker`> I think that people should just accept that the staff do what they have to do, and unless someone is willing to put as much time / resources into starting a new network, they are going to have to put up with the decisions of staff
[01:29] <elkbuntu> Daviey, it might be 'just irc', but it's a gigantic part of the ubuntu community.
[01:30] <Gary> and take a long hard think about if they did - would they find themselves in the same position in the end too...
[01:30] <Gary> Daviey: I mean, oi, thats my life you are dissing :p
[01:30] <Daviey> Gary: silly me, i thought you had no life :P
[01:30] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, staff dont "have" to allow (or encourage, or participate in) the kind of spam that we were forced to put up with
[01:31] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: They may consider it a channel issue if someone keeps on spamming a channel
[01:31] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, fail.
[01:32] <elkbuntu> dont even try that one.
[01:32] <elkbuntu> it was more than just a channel, or even a namespace
[01:32] <Daviey> elkbuntu: the "spam" was blown completely out of proportion, and was clearly handled badly which has caused all this bad feeling.
[01:33] <Gary> is this spam what I think it is?  begins with e, ends in a?
[01:33] <elkbuntu> Daviey, it didnt cause the bad feeling, it was just the final straw
[01:33] <Daviey> elkbuntu: so you think it was handled well?
[01:33] <elkbuntu> Gary, indeed it is.
[01:33] <Seeker`> spam doesn't really have much to do with the running of the network
[01:33] <Gary> argggh, still, /me cries
[01:33] <elkbuntu> Daviey, no, but it wasnt the sole cause.
[01:34] <elkbuntu> Gary, we're talking issues, it is an issue. you cannot get around it.
[01:36] <Seeker`> Staff can't do anything more to stop a spammer than ops can do afaik
[01:36] <Gary> I don't see why a channel ban was not done earlier to be honest
[01:36] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, maybe not, but they dont have to encourage it or excuse it
[01:36] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: I dont ever recall staff encouraging anything
[01:36] <elkbuntu> Gary, it was. it was lifted without the knowledge of most of the council.
[01:36] <Gary> afaik it was never encourged
[01:36] <Daviey> interesting definition of encourage you have.
[01:37] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, they gave alternative ways, such as /invite to do the same deed.
[01:37] <Gary> they?
[01:37] <Seeker`> the point is, they shouldn't have to do anything about something that essentially isn't their issue
[01:37] <elkbuntu> Gary, numerous staff
[01:37] <Daviey> proof?
[01:37] <Seeker`> AIUI, they are here to ensure that the network keeps running
[01:38] <elkbuntu> Daviey, the staff in question are in this channel. if they wish for it to be known they can let it be known.
[01:38] <Seeker`> If people want someone k-lined, there should be a namespace wide ban in effect for that person
[01:38]  * Daviey goes to gather some sticks, for a fire - looks like another witchhunt is on the cards.
[01:38] <Seeker`> without an exception for any channel
[01:38] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, there was. certain parts of the namespace didnt comply.
[01:38] <Seeker`> as this would have the same effect as a k-line
[01:39] <Seeker`> The group contact can do whatever they wish with namespace channels, can they not?
[01:39] <elkbuntu> if you really want me to explain how this worked in say the loco part of the namespace.....
[01:39] <Daviey> hmm, i seem to remember elkbuntu defining emma's ban as _not_ a namespace ban.
[01:39] <elkbuntu> in say -uk.
[01:40] <Seeker`> We were told that it was suggested that she be banned from every ubuntu-* channel
[01:40] <Seeker`> and that it was our decision
[01:40] <Daviey> elkbuntu: emma has been a useful member of the -uk channel.
[01:40] <elkbuntu> yes, but she was rarely banned from here, as per the coc
[01:40] <elkbuntu> Daviey, she also made a certain member of the -uk channel feel very uncomfortable and unwelcome
[01:40] <Daviey> as did he to her.
[01:41] <Daviey> he was rather terse, which we don't encourage.
[01:41] <elkbuntu> Daviey, he followed her around?
[01:41] <Daviey> did i say that?
[01:41] <elkbuntu> did i say you did?
[01:41] <Daviey> elkbuntu: did you follow emma onto other networks?
[01:41] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: my point is, if the irc-council wanted someone k-lined, it would be possible for them to ban them from every #ubuntu-* channel, would it not?
[01:41] <elkbuntu> Daviey, no
[01:41] <Daviey> O RLY
[01:41] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i was already on those networks
[01:42] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: And, as far as #ubuntu-* is concerned, it has exactly the same effect
[01:42] <Daviey> okay, followe her into other channels that you weren't in on other networks?
[01:42] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i joined as suggested by someone here who said they'd been sent from there
[01:43] <Daviey> erm, check your logs - he didn't suggest you join
[01:43] <elkbuntu> maybe he didnt. but he came in here and said he was acting on information he recieved from there
[01:44] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: please answer my question
[01:44] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, no, it's not actually. numerous loco channels still dont have the allowance in their access list
[01:44] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: The group contact can request that control be transferred to them, can they not?
[01:45] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, in ways that would breach the coc, sure.
[01:45] <Seeker`> it may not be designed for at present, but it is possible
[01:45] <elkbuntu> it's conceivable, but not entirely possible.
[01:46] <Daviey> yeah, if that happend, i could see more ## channels being formed
[01:46] <Seeker`> so banning someone from #ubuntu-* and enforcing it is against the CoC, yet pushing for someone to be k-lined isn't?
[01:47] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, i should hope i dont have to spend the next hour wording the differences between the two scenarios
[01:47] <Gary> elkbuntu: what allowance in the access list do you want?
[01:47] <Seeker`> I fail to see the difference between the two
[01:48] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: perhaps I am stupid, please explain
[01:48] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, you have to wait a while, i cant forsake my life for your professed stupidity
[01:48] <Seeker`> and if it takes an hour to explain the difference, perhaps the difference is too small to actually be noticable
[01:49] <elkbuntu> ok, to put it simply. if the council was to wrench control of -uk from the current operators, would that be more of an effect than a kline?
[01:50] <Seeker`> i'n not saying you should "wrench control" from the current operators
[01:50] <Daviey> wow, how rude can you get elkbuntu?
[01:51] <Seeker`> I am saying that there should be an allowance in the rules and guidelines forthe irc-council to instigate a namespace wide ban (an ubuntu-line, if you wish)
[01:51] <elkbuntu> Daviey, depends how long i get interrogated here
[01:51] <Daviey> hmm, "interrogated"
[01:51] <Seeker`> upon this u-line being issued, that person is banned from every channel in the #ubuntu namespace
[01:52] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, good luck getting that by the CC
[01:52] <Daviey> Seeker`: I was previously correct, a #*ubuntu* namespace ban wasn't intended for emma
[01:52] <Daviey> corrected*
[01:52] <elkbuntu> because it was not logistically possible.
[01:52] <Seeker`> I dont see how removing individual channel admins choice  to ban someone (perhaps against their wishes) is anti-CoC, but removing their choice through a k-line is fine
[01:53] <Daviey> elkbuntu: hmm, i don't think that is how you phrased it when you corrected me.
[01:54] <Daviey> Seeker`: the difference happens, when a k-line has to be issued from staff - and they use reasoned judgement, but a (partial) namespace ban can be issued from non-staffers
[01:55] <elkbuntu> the people 'issuing' the namespace ban, mind you, were not even council.
[01:55] <elkbuntu> so hence, the council never issued any directive to a namespace ban
[01:55] <Seeker`> Daviey: I am suggesting that if a situation gets so bad that a k-line is requested, then a namespace-wide ban should be in place
[01:56] <Seeker`> also, only the council should be able to request a k-line based on actions in #ubuntu
[01:56] <Seeker`> #ubuntu-*
[01:56] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, really now.
[01:56] <Daviey> Seeker`: aye, but then i would also think that freenode would want to kline if the situation was that bad.
[01:56] <elkbuntu> nalioth, ping! seeker doesnt want any of the spammers or flooders klined without council approval.
[01:56] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: No, I never said that
[01:56] <elkbuntu> yes you did
[01:56] <Daviey> no he didn't
[01:57] <elkbuntu>  only the council should be able to request a k-line based on actions in #ubuntu
[01:57] <Daviey> it's taking what he said out of context
[01:57] <Seeker`> ok, let me clarify
[01:57] <Daviey> I think you knew that, but hey
[01:57] <elkbuntu> and you've not taken a single thing out of context in the past 40 minutes of my time?
[01:57] <Daviey> no
[01:57] <Seeker`> In the case of a long running problem like emma, only the council should be able to request a kline
[01:58] <Seeker`> if a staffer sees something that they wish to k-line it is up to them
[01:58] <PriceChild> Seeker`: The council have as much to say in the running of freenode as the ops and users do.
[01:59] <elkbuntu> the council did request a kline, on the basis it was politically more correct than spending hours accumulating access and trying to institute a namespace-wide ban.
[01:59] <PriceChild> elkbuntu: I don't remember the council requesting a kline.
[01:59] <elkbuntu> PriceChild, i recall us doing so
[01:59] <Seeker`> PriceChild: My point is that there should be the equivalent to k-lineing that only affects the #ubuntu- namespace
[01:59] <PriceChild> Seeker`: there is dealing with a problem, and then there is making a point.
[02:00] <PriceChild> Seeker`: I would prefer we do the former.
[02:00] <Seeker`> as I understand it, one of the "issues" with staff is that they refuse to k-line people that some people deem to be spammers etc.
[02:00] <PriceChild> Seeker`: freenode's definition of spam happenned to differ.
[02:00] <Seeker`> that may be the case
[02:01] <Seeker`> but the point is, some people in #ubuntu-* wanted some people removed from the network for reasons X Y and Z
[02:01] <Daviey> well there is certainly an overlap.  I think all parties agree that "Join #linux on $network, we need users and ops etc" is spam.
[02:01] <Seeker`> freenode said no, so people sit there whining about it
[02:01] <PriceChild> And it would be an issue *you have* with staf, not an issue *with* staff
[02:01] <Seeker`> sorry, bad working
[02:02] <Seeker`> *wording
[02:02] <PriceChild> no problem
[02:02] <Seeker`> I am suggesting an alternative, whereby instead of requesting a k-line, the irc-council implement a namespace wide ban
[02:02] <Seeker`> which would approximate a k-line, and could be instituted without the involvement of staff
[02:02] <Daviey> i really don't think a situation has yet happend where that is warranted.
[02:02] <Daviey> It should be on a per channel basis
[02:03] <Seeker`> Daviey: maybe not, but it would take away one of the reasons why people are complaining so loudly about staff
[02:03] <elkbuntu> Daviey, several times it would have saved our sanity whilst waiting for an actual kline
[02:03] <Daviey> it's a select few complaining about staff.  I think staff have been doing a mighty fine job - with little thanks tb
[02:03] <Daviey> tbh
[02:04] <elkbuntu> Daviey, you werent around much in lilo's days, were you?
[02:04] <elkbuntu> things have changed *ALOT* since then
[02:04] <Daviey> elkbuntu: care to quote an occasion?  I can't think of many where a /kickban hasn't resolved most issues in #ubuntu.. Not sure how a k-line would have any difference.
[02:05] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: Why should staff get invovled with the day-to-day running of a channel?
[02:06] <Seeker`> Imagine it like a government. You wouldn't report a pothole in the road outside your house to the Houses of Parliment (i.e. staff), you would report it to the local council (i.e. group contacts)
[02:06] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i can quote a personal attack by a loony who took offense to me kickbanning him from one channel for threatening violence... only to join *EVERY* channel in the list to proclaim me as a gay child rapist
[02:06] <Gary> what other networks do staff get as involved with the channels, users and opers than freenode?
[02:06] <Seeker`> and it would then be up to the local council to do something about it
[02:06] <Daviey> elkbuntu: and a staffer wasn't around for how long?
[02:06] <elkbuntu> Daviey, a good half hour
[02:07] <Gary> elkbuntu: we also have many looneys who might as well be kline exempt, as they have many many proxies to play with
[02:07] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i'm often around when there are *zero* staffers to be found
[02:07] <Daviey> and you think you could get irc council approval on a namespace ban before that?
[02:07] <elkbuntu> Gary, this wasnt one of them.
[02:09] <elkbuntu> Daviey, well in this instance, the staffer who showed up was nalioth, and hence on the council. it's not always the case though. often the entire council minus nalioth is around without any way to prevent flood spam attacks
[02:09] <Seeker`> "without any way"?
[02:10] <Seeker`> can you not ban people?
[02:10] <Daviey> elkbuntu: can you clarify who did approve the partial namespace ban on emma, if it wasn't the irc council?
[02:11] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, partial namespace ban as in major channels exempting this one, was approved by the council afaicr
[02:11] <elkbuntu> bah
[02:11] <Seeker`> Daviey: ^
[02:11] <elkbuntu> can you guys please come at me one at a time.
 the people 'issuing' the namespace ban, mind you, were not even council.
[02:12] <Daviey> elkbuntu: we are not coming at you.  Please don't think we are.
[02:12] <elkbuntu> actually you know what. screw this. i dont give up my weekends to be villanised.
[02:12] <elkbuntu> Daviey, it sure as all hell feels like it
[02:12] <elkbuntu> Daviey, im on the brink of quitting bothering right now
[02:13] <elkbuntu> that will be joining seveas, hobbsee, and seemingly ljl as i've not seen a peep from him for weeks.
[02:13] <elkbuntu> i hope you're pleased with yourselves
[02:13] <Daviey> *sigh*
[02:13] <Daviey> we are _not_ getting at you
[02:13] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: I'm getting fed up with all the complaining and sniping about different things. I am trying to suggest an alternative solution that will put an end to a large proportion of the reasons that people are complaining
[02:14] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, you're not suggesting anything we havent already thought about.
[02:14] <Daviey> behind closed doors..
[02:14] <elkbuntu> because this is really stuff we want trolls reading in -ops logs
[02:14] <Seeker`> All I see is people complaining about the freenode staff, and no suggestions of new ideas
[02:14] <Daviey> I can see how you can think some of the things i'm saying are getting at you, but it's not intended this way
[02:15] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: did someone suggest my idea
[02:15] <elkbuntu> Daviey, it's the fact i have as many as three of you throwing 'ideas' at me at once
[02:15] <Daviey> I don't see what Seeker` has said to be things that are annoying
[02:16] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, not in quite so many words, but there's a reason we have requested of all ubuntu channels to have ubuntuircouncil in the access lists of channels
[02:16] <Seeker`> Is there any way for me to officially suggest my idea
[02:16] <Seeker`> so that there will be a public discussion
[02:17] <elkbuntu> Daviey, when did i say he was being annoying. im sitting here *alone* fending off questions and ideas from *two* and sometimes *three* people. i've only just got up, and im trying hard to have breakfast which is now cold
[02:17] <Daviey> Seeker`: mailing list will be the best place IMO
[02:17] <Daviey> that list needs to more discussion IMO
[02:17] <elkbuntu> Daviey, yay, paddy frank can join in then too! :D
[02:17]  * elkbuntu headdesks
[02:17] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: would the ML be a suitable place to suggest it?
[02:18] <Daviey> elkbuntu: to be fair, emma was on her own againts many of the irc council and ops.
[02:18] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, it would be, it if would stay clean and calm there. given the people who we know hawk it, it'd not last long
[02:18] <elkbuntu> Daviey, emma was never on her own.
[02:18] <Daviey> _never_?
[02:18] <elkbuntu> Daviey, we had numerous minions come at us on her behalf
[02:18] <Daviey> after it kicked off?
[02:19] <elkbuntu> Daviey, she already had a populated channel by the time we found out
[02:19] <elkbuntu> she had paladine from close to the beginning
[02:19] <elkbuntu> afaik
[02:20] <Daviey> Please remember that i don't know emma from Adam, and she's done some realy stupid things.  But i think she's been _really_ badly treated by both formal process, poor behaviour by some people.
[02:20] <elkbuntu> Daviey, she managed to collect a good proportion of the worst behaved people from -offtopic who loved nothing better than to be her knights.
[02:21] <Daviey> I can see /why/ she did that, trying to stand up against the council and -ops, which is really stupid and i do not condone it.
[02:23] <elkbuntu> Daviey, the main problem with resolving with emma is that we'd get to a conclusion, and she'd take something someone said months ago, and revoke any committment based on it.
[02:23] <elkbuntu> she'd wait *right* until the conclusion to 'discover' said evil, and then bawl about it.
[02:24] <elkbuntu> this happened as many as half a dozen times. each time took as many as 12 hours of discussion to get to. in one case it was my entire weekend gone.
[02:25] <elkbuntu> as in. wake->sleep negotiating with her for an entire weekend.
[02:25] <elkbuntu> but then again, ubuntu ops dont catalyse, or so i'm told.
[02:25] <Gary> wow, isn't the aim of the traditional "internet troll" to waste peoples time?
[02:25] <Daviey> hmm, i dunno - a resolution was pretty much forced upon her from the offset; and she appeared to largely follow most of it, until someone did something recent - then do things like revert topic, and msg people... Which was a silly, tit-for-tat response - but again, i can see /why/
[02:25] <elkbuntu> Gary, yes. we had to keep wasting time on her though, since there was no other way.
[02:26] <Daviey> This problem will not go away until she's unbanned IMO
[02:26] <elkbuntu> Daviey, she is largely unbanned afaik.
[02:27] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i thought you didnt know her from adam?
[02:27] <Daviey> I don't.
[02:27] <elkbuntu> Daviey, btw, she only followed the parts of the resolution she added, which involved no actual change of behaviour.
[02:28] <elkbuntu> telling people in ##u-u to not be mean to ops is a BIG FREAKING RED BUTTON to the people who were in there.
[02:28] <Daviey> I don't, but if i see anything that i persevere to be unfair i'd argue their corner
[02:29] <Daviey> I think i've criticised both sides equally to be fair.
[02:31] <elkbuntu> either way, the way the ops team in general was villanised, and lost weekends to her, is a key reason why we've lost ops and infrastructure.
[02:38] <Daviey> no, i think it's bad process planning and the good guys doing bad things that has caused this rift.
[02:39] <Daviey> There is no way i would have bothered getting involved in this if there was better process and fairer/better treatment
[02:40] <Daviey> If 1 user is able to cause this much hassle, there _must_ be a problem in the infrastructure.
[02:41] <elkbuntu> the problem is that the infrastructure changed. i can recall a time when that one user would have genuinely been dealt with, rather than allowed to waste days of hours.
[02:42] <Daviey> I think if the good guys had done things with better process, emma wouldn't have done things that she's now famous for, she wouldn't have been banned, and there would be no rift in the irc community.
[02:43] <elkbuntu> Daviey, done what with better process? we shouldnt have asked her to stop spamming? we shouldnt have asked her to stop making racist comments?
[02:43] <Daviey> It's worth noting that the irc discussion at UDS was the ONLY heated one, where people verged on shouting at each other.
[02:44] <elkbuntu> im glad you had time to know that
[02:44] <Daviey> I think initially she was banned from -offtopic more for having a strong opinion on the external logging bot.
[02:45] <Daviey> time?
[02:45] <elkbuntu> Daviey, i spent three days at the aussie version of CeBIT during UDS week.
[02:47] <Daviey> shame, i wanted to go to asterisk & linuxtag this week - but couldn't get family time away really.
[02:48] <elkbuntu> and btw, that 'strong opinion on the external logging bot' was seething and acidic comments about a 'slimey israeli company'. when we asked her to please not be so racist, she started screaming.
[02:48] <elkbuntu> s/company/corporation/
[02:50] <elkbuntu> iirc, she then agreed to stop, so we let her back in, and practically the first hting out of her mouth was 'slimey israeli corporation'
[02:51] <elkbuntu> but of course our processes are broken. we were foolish enough to give her a chance. how damn stupid and careless and reckless of us.
[02:51]  * ompaul pokes Daviey in the beard with a razor gillette mach 3
[02:52] <Seeker`> Ah, chanserv has protect nicks now
[02:52] <Guest78382> grr
[02:52] <Guest78382> yes
[02:52] <Daviey> whilst i agree the fact that they are israeli makes no merit to the discussion, and is just rude - i'm not sure it's racist.
[02:52] <Hobbsee> wonder why i got dumped in ##unavailable
[02:52] <Daviey> ompaul: i'll poke you in the aye for that :)
[02:53] <ompaul> Daviey, level three coffee and ohh we are not one week ago
[02:53] <Seeker`> Daviey: Saying "they should not be allowed because they are israeli" is racist, as it is saying that they shouldn't be allowed because of their race
[02:53] <Daviey> elkbuntu: you know she actually had discussion with irseek, and got changes made?
[02:53] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: check your server tab
[02:53] <Daviey> Seeker`: did she actually say "they should not be allowed because they are israeli"?
[02:53] <Seeker`> Daviey: I have seen comments to that effect since
[02:54] <elkbuntu> Daviey, yes, im aware.
[02:54] <elkbuntu> Daviey, are you aware what her initial demands actually were though?
[02:55] <Daviey> Yeah, i sure devalues an argument when you put really stupid words like that in an argument, if she mean't it as racist or not.
[02:55]  * Daviey thinks we _should_ be careful what we say here, considering it is logged - and emma tends to read logs.  It could cause libel issues, potentially.
[02:56] <elkbuntu> Daviey, we're not saying anything that hasnt already been logged
[02:56] <ompaul> liable to cause libel wow Daviey goes for a pun award
[02:58] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, i think the comments you recall come from another who uses the 'slimey israeli corporation' line, and possibly taught it to miss e.
[03:00] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: what about it?
[03:01] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: it will tell you about the forward
[03:01] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: i assume it will be because you were -e attempting to enter a +r channel
[03:01] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: i was asleep overnight, so i wasn't trying to enter anything.
[03:02] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: that being said, i turned on nick security, and freenode borkened the services again, forcing a reidentify
[03:02]  * Hobbsee should probably turn it off until freenode's more stable.
[03:02] <emma> Hello my friends.
[03:03] <Hobbsee> hi.
[03:04]  * elkbuntu raises an eyebrow
[03:04] <Hobbsee> wait.  i probably don't qualify as a friend, so i'll rescind that.
[03:05] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: I cannot remember who made those statements, although I do remember seeing them
[03:05] <emma> For quite a while I have chosen not to take a look at the #ubuntu-ops logs because again and again what I find there is hurtful, antagonistic, and bad for my mental health.
[03:05]  * elkbuntu headdesks
[03:06] <Seeker`> emma: how can we help you?
[03:06] <emma> I'm sorry that as fate would have it, this evening I took a look and found my name being mentioned so much. I just thought that since I am on your mind so much, you would value being able to speak to me directly.
[03:06] <elkbuntu> actually, no, i dont value such.
[03:06] <emma> In the absence of speaking to me directly it feels a great deal like the self-same on going effort to spread negative propaganda about me which has provoked so much needless conflict in the first place.
[03:06] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: does the definition of your resignation tfrom 'regular op duties' need to be explained again to me, to allow the whole, dealing with banned users in here kinda thing?
[03:06] <Seeker`> emma: Noone has an issue with you at the moment. This disucssion has come about due to the actions of some with respect to freenode staff. It just so happens that you have come up as an example in the discussion
[03:06] <Hobbsee> emma: so, how did you find out that you were being spoken about today, if you choose not to look at #ubuntu-ops logs?
[03:07] <emma> Hobbsee, I just told you that I did look at the #ubuntu-ops logs.
[03:07] <Hobbsee> oh right.  that was past, i see.
[03:07] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: last i checked, -bugs and such is in developer land, and she still holds bans there.
[03:08] <elkbuntu> emma, this has been a discussion between ops. we reserve the right to debrief ourselves. debriefing does not require your participation and in fact your participation would be counterproductive.
[03:09] <Hobbsee> Daviey: i can't believe your blog post, when you complain about how others behave.
[03:09] <Hobbsee> pot.  kettle.
[03:09] <PriceChild> emma: could we talk about this tomorrow please?
[03:09] <emma> elkbuntu, I don't think that I'm just being used as an example. From my perspective I see a lot of specifically targeting me and making a lot of unfriendly allegations without any chance to balance the slander.
[03:10] <emma> elkbuntu, slander is very hurtful and counter productive. I am a person who has for the last 3 months or more done everything that I can to resolve a conflict only to find, repeatedly, and from the same select few people every effort made to keep the wounds open and antagonize me or others.
[03:10] <Hobbsee> emma: you seem to be so insecure that you can't tolerate your name being mentioned, when you're one of the examples being used, in multiple situations.  why?
[03:10] <nalioth> emma: nobody is attacking you, just bringing up past events
[03:10] <elkbuntu> emma, unless you want us to start having private conversations hidden off where you cant spy, please learn to keep a distance.
[03:10] <Hobbsee> (see the end of #ubuntu-meeting, too)
[03:11] <PriceChild> emma: I would really appreciate it if you came back tomorrow. There has been a very long, heated discussion here this evening.
[03:11] <Hobbsee> ignoring emma's attempt to sidetrack, Daviey, i'd suggest that clearly emma is *not* the only problem, seeing as there were also various heated discussions about flip.
[03:11] <emma> I would like to say for the record -- It is the very same group of people who have done the most to maim my reputation, to antagonize, and belittle me, to provoke a reaction from me that they could punish, it has been this same small group of people who troll the CC and Freenode almost every single day.
[03:11] <Daviey> Hobbsee: Yeah, notice i didn't do it on the first instance of this.  And Seveas attitude is disgusting in his blog post.  I agree that tit-for-tat isn't a good response.  I did run my blog post past two other ubuntu members before posting it.
[03:12] <Seeker`> emma: this really isn't helping
[03:12] <Hobbsee> Daviey: which makes you just as bad, no?
[03:12] <Daviey> arguably
[03:12] <Hobbsee> emma: i thought mark told you to obey the people in authority.
[03:12] <Hobbsee> emma: why do you now refuse to do so?
[03:13] <emma> I have not and do not disobey anyone in authority. I believe Mark also urged you to treat others with respect and abide by the CoC for leaders.
[03:13] <Hobbsee> particularly as you've taken completely the wrong end of the stick, and run with it.
[03:14] <Seeker`> emma: PriceChild has already asked you to come back tomorrow if you wish to discuss this. PriceChild is in a position of authority.
[03:14] <emma> I am going to leave now. I do not want to add to the stress of anyone. I just don't want to see myself being subject to slanderous allegations or antagonistic snarky comments from the same group of people every day.
[03:14] <emma> goodnight.
[03:14] <elkbuntu> emma, if you are not disobeying, then why are you here after council members have requested you leave?
[03:14] <Seeker`> *sigh*
[03:14] <elkbuntu> and this is why things bottle up inside -- we cant talk about them.
[03:15] <elkbuntu> everyone else can talk and vent -- except ubuntu ops
[03:15] <elkbuntu> we have to hold ourselves to such a higher standard that we explode in very unbecoming ways.
[03:15] <tomaw> then you should have a private channel in which to do so.
[03:15] <Hobbsee> tomaw: it would be unlikely that there isn't one already.
[03:15] <elkbuntu> tomaw, this used to be that private channel.
[03:15] <tomaw> indeed, so use it.
[03:16] <tomaw> elkbuntu: that is no longer true
[03:16] <tomaw> it's public and logs are available to all
[03:16] <elkbuntu> tomaw, no, because certain people said it was against the ubuntu way to have it private.
[03:16] <Seeker`> I am not aware of any such channel, and, as such, raised the issue in here
[03:16] <elkbuntu> so we had to start logging it.
[03:16] <PriceChild> tomaw: we have private messages, and the way some of us those is attacked upon enough anyway
[03:16] <PriceChild> *way some of us use those
[03:17]  * elkbuntu nods PriceChild 
[03:17] <elkbuntu> we get hauled if we are found to be non-transparent
[03:17] <elkbuntu> that is our burden
[03:17] <tomaw> that's internal breakage above and beyond the need for private bitching channels.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> anyway, guys, you're letting emma win here.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> she's trying to sidetrack, and she's succeeding.
[03:17] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, look around and explain how she has not already. seriously.
[03:18] <tomaw> I came in half way, so if I am sidetracking then I am sorry
[03:18] <elkbuntu> yet she comes in here with her emo heartbreak story
[03:18] <Seeker`> I dont think this discussion should continue along its current path
[03:19] <Hobbsee> for an ubuntu wide channel ban, does that take into account the wishes of those who are not in the core channels?
[03:19] <tomaw> My intent was not at all related to emma, more a thought that you guys seems to need somewhere private to rant a little :)
[03:20] <Seeker`> I thought that the irc council was meant to "run" the irc side of the ubuntu community
[03:20] <Seeker`> which includes loco teams etc.
[03:20] <elkbuntu> tomaw, we used to have that and it was taken from us. we now have nowhere and it is the inherent breakage that seeker and daviey rather ellude to unknowingly.
[03:21] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: so, what happens if the loco guys disagree on an action by the irc council?
[03:21] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, loco teams have always been let run their loco as they wish
[03:21] <tomaw> elkbuntu: ah
[03:22] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: This is part of the reason that my idea isn't perfect
[03:22] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: But it is the *only* alternative I have seen being put forward, short of "Staff should do what I say"
[03:23] <Seeker`> which certainly isn't going to happen
[03:23]  * Hobbsee thought the staff had guidelines.
[03:23] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: such as?
[03:23] <Hobbsee> looking for them now
[03:23] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, those of us who have been around long enough can see the change in how things are handled that others may not be seeing.
[03:24] <Hobbsee> the one i referenced last night, which PriceChild went off in a fury about.
[03:24] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: How long have you been part of the ubuntu irc community?
[03:24] <PriceChild> I read that as furry :( I'm so disappointed.
[03:24] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, since breezy
[03:24] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: no, i don't *think* you're furry?
[03:25] <PriceChild> But it would've been sooooo much more entertaining.
[03:25] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, i used to get banned by seveas for doing !!!one!11!!!
[03:25] <Seeker`> heh
[03:25] <elkbuntu> Seeker`,  back then, that was ok. both seveas and i knew it was playing. we cant do that anymore.
[03:25] <Seeker`> the community is a lot bigger now though
[03:26] <Seeker`> things get less personal
[03:26] <Seeker`> and that is unavoidable imo
[03:26] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, -offtopic has only grown by about 50 in that time really
[03:26] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: That is an increase of 50%
[03:27] <Seeker`> -uk has increased from ~30 to up to 100 since december 06
[03:27] <elkbuntu> yes. and the average intelligence of conversation in the channel ranks at about 10% of what it used to
[03:27] <Seeker`> i dont doubt that
[03:27] <Seeker`> but it means that things must change to cope with that
[03:27]  * PriceChild strikes all furry comments from the record
[03:28] <PriceChild> I have no idea what you are on about.
[03:28] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, and they have. doesnt mean it's for the better.
[03:28] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: But complaining about the "good old days" doesn't really help - it isn't reasonable to expect things to be like they were then
[03:29] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, no, but im not complaining per se, rather comparing to how damn strict we are now.
[03:29] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: no reason to let them turn to hell either.  there is a balance.
[03:29] <Seeker`> The current situation is clearly inadequate
[03:30] <Seeker`> and although there has been a lot of talk about how to make things better, there deosn't seem to have been a huge amount of change recently
[03:30] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: i presume that if loco guys disagree, they should appeal to the irc council about why.
[03:30] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: yes
[03:30] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: then you just get the feasibility of banning in many, many channels.
[03:31] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: Have you seen the -irc mailing list?
[03:31] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, clearly you havent if you're asking her that
[03:32] <Seeker`> I haven't seen any replies to my mails apart from PriceChild's one
[03:32] <Seeker`> and I have been checking
[03:32] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: ah, seen the next 2 mails.
[03:33] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: do you really believe that absolutely everyone can be catalysed, and dealt with in that fashion?
[03:33] <PriceChild> Nope.
[03:33] <PriceChild> Which is why we have +qb and klines.
[03:35] <Hobbsee> yet...in your mail, you say that people should "deal with the situation", without handing out a mass channel-wide ban, or a kline.
[03:35] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: does my second email answer your question about banning in many, many channels
[03:35]  * elkbuntu is still rather traumatised from the instance where non-ops here spent 40 minutes trying to catalyse someone, only to fail and plea for my help... for which i got hauled by a freenode helper for not catalysing personally
[03:35] <Hobbsee> fundamentally, this comes down to a question of how we implement the "you've had your chances, wasted all of them, and you are now Unwelcome Here"
[03:36] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: I said "deal with the situation", not "deal with the situation without banning"
[03:36] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: sure, dealing with it may mean a +b in #ubuntu. What it probably doesn't mean is a +b in every #ubuntu channel we can find some access in
[03:36] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: right, so you're not saying that klining and mass-banning is always to "make a point"
[03:36] <PriceChild> nope
[03:37] <PriceChild> as in... 'right, i'm not saying that'
[03:37] <Seeker`> PriceChild: I wasn't suggesting that a namespace ban is suitable in every situation - I am saying that if it is required, it should only be in extremely rare situations
[03:37] <Hobbsee> i guess the other question is, "is the irc council wanting to make decisions, like "you are not welcome here, at all, please leave"?"
[03:38] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: yes, thanks.
[03:38] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, wanting to - definately. permitted to - no by multiple rulesets.
[03:38] <PriceChild> Seeker`: completely understood. I believe because of the way it would be implemented, it isn't suitable in any case.
[03:38] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: that's your view.  i wonder how many others share it
[03:38] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: (not to be catty, but i couldn't find a better way of putting that)
[03:39] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: on the "wanting to" part
[03:39] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: sure we want to make decisions, if we didn't i think we wouldn't get anywhere?
[03:39] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, i believe every one of us here now can think of at least two people who they'd love to direct to another part of existance to live.
[03:44] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: that's not what i was asking.
[03:46] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: what i asked, was if the irc council wanted to make the decision to ask someone to leave, if they'd consistently done bad things, on a social level (ie, not DDoS'ing the network), and the irc council was reasonably sure that more catalysing wouldn't work.
[03:47] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: MOTU managed it, by ubuntu rulesets, incidently.
[03:47] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: with mark's stamp of approval.
[03:47] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: so i'm unsure about the multiple ruleset part.
[03:47] <PriceChild> oh were you asking about that specific kind of decision?
[03:47] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: yes.
[03:47] <PriceChild> gah sorry, lag
[03:47] <Hobbsee> :)
[03:48] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, im not so confident that he'd make a similar decision for general user participation
[03:49] <Seeker`> under the current system, staff are requested to k-line a user
[03:49] <Seeker`> which has a greater effect of the user
[03:49] <PriceChild> Seeker`: pardon?
[03:49] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: perhaps.  but i think of the fact that helping uses is a contribution for membership purposes, like dealing in bugs.
[03:49] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: so, clearly, helping users *is* important to them.  who knows as to if it's important enough.
[03:50] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, depends which regional board you go to i believe.
[03:50] <Seeker`> PriceChild: I have seen complaints because staff dont deal with spammers and attackers appropriately. I assume this means that staff did not k-line the people in question
[03:50] <Hobbsee> while i doubt mark would want to get involved himself, i can't see him stopping the decision of the relelvant council
[03:51] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: oh, that's interesting.  i presume the regional boards will be drawn itno line, with more practice - granting memberships is an extroadinarily subjective thing, unless the person has done oodles of clearly useful stuff
[03:51] <Seeker`> PriceChild: If mark would not approve a system of namespace bans, I can't see him condoning the request of a k-line for a user
[03:51] <PriceChild> Seeker`: I don't believe our current system is to request klines for problem users.
[03:51] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, that's a story for a different day
[03:52] <Seeker`> PriceChild: k-lines have been requested for users
[03:52] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: (that's being said from someone who used to grant memberships herself).
[03:52] <Hobbsee> true
[03:52] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: Yes I'm sure the council would make a decision about these things. We do afterall have a dispute resolution process with us at the top making a decision.
[03:52] <PriceChild> It just so happens that people rarely follow it.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: you only have a user resolution process - ie, when the allegations are brought by users.  not by ops.
[03:54] <tomaw> may i, as a non-ubuntu member of staff quickly explain exactly what a kline is?
[03:54] <PriceChild> Hobbsee: The same process applies.
[03:54] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, one would assume an op is also a user, even if they have to be superhuman versions
[03:54] <Seeker`> tomaw: feel free
[03:54] <tomaw> thank you.
[03:55] <tomaw> while a kline is traditionally local to just one server, here on freenode they are pushed to all servers.
[03:55] <tomaw> they match user@host/ip ranges.
[03:55] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: they don't get the same rights as users, in practice.  ie, they need to be superhuman, and everything they say is held against them forever.
[03:55] <tomaw> they to not match nicks.
[03:56] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, i did make that distinction, just less wordy
[03:56] <Seeker`> PriceChild: What method of dealing with spammers / attackers is there that staff are expected to take, other than k-lines?
[03:56] <tomaw> Although, were a case to be made, we could engineer nick based bans if required.
[03:56] <Seeker`> tomaw: ok, thanks
[03:57] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: forever catalysing.
[03:57] <elkbuntu> i really must calculate the time spent with a certain time-sink user
[03:57] <tomaw> Some people seem to be of the opinion that requesting a kline is akin to a magic bullet that will fix all problems.
[03:58] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: I doubt that Seveas is so unhappy because staff refuse to talk to users
[03:59] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: if it's someone like randall, you can eventually succeed.  but it really depends on how receptive the user is.
[03:59] <tomaw> Based on his recent blog post, Seveas seems generically unhappy.
[04:00] <Seeker`> my point is that the only thing that  I am aware that the staff can do that normal ops can't is k-line
[04:00] <elkbuntu> tomaw, most of us have not had time to test, or even time to actually twig on to the existance of the test server
[04:00] <Seeker`> correct me if I am wrong
[04:01] <elkbuntu> i dont recall even hearing mention of the test server until last weekend
[04:01] <tomaw> elkbuntu: it's been there for around six months.
[04:01] <elkbuntu> tomaw, i've had a hectic 6 months
[04:01] <Hobbsee> tomaw: where was the advertising about it?  i've not seen it at all?
[04:01] <tomaw> elkbuntu: as have I :)
[04:01] <PriceChild> Seeker`: there's a lot more to it than that.
[04:01] <elkbuntu> tomaw, i've moved numerous times and started two new jobs.
[04:01] <tomaw> Hobbsee: it's been blogged at least
[04:01] <Seeker`> therefore, by complaining about staff not dealing with users correctly, they are complaining that these users have not been k-lined
[04:01] <elkbuntu> ha. i havent even read ubuntu planet for eons/
[04:02] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: it's not been on ther
[04:02] <Hobbsee> e
[04:02]  * Hobbsee *does* read that one.
[04:02] <tomaw> tbh I don't much mind users not testing the testnet
[04:02] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, i know, but if i have no time to read the blogs of the project im involved with, why do i have time to read the blog of one i merely use. i dont read openoffice blogs or firefox blogs for the same reason
[04:03] <tomaw> it's documented style that people find broken stuff when it's live, after all :)
[04:03] <Seeker`> PriceChild: what am I missing then?
[04:03] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: true
[04:04] <tomaw> Seeker`: there are massive amounts of general user protection that staff have that's better than a single kline.
[04:04] <elkbuntu> wow, i've been up for three hours now and i still havent had a chance to clean my flat which i havent had a chance to clean for over a month now
[04:04] <Seeker`> tomaw: what sort of things?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: i guess i'm surprised that the members who double as staff and irc council might have alerted the irc council to this, so that they could circulate among interested people to go test.
[04:04] <Hobbsee> clearly, the staffers should be reading their own blog, so would have known about it.
[04:05] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: LjL was certainly aware of it, as he used it to test floodbots several months ago
[04:05] <tomaw> Seeker`: we have the advantage of overseeing the network, for one.  Shared spam doesn't always hit #ubuntu :)
[04:06] <Seeker`> but in terms of just talking to a user, there isn't really much more that they can do, is there?
[04:06] <tomaw> a single user that is determined to evade any bans will do so regardless of any efforts
[04:07] <Seeker`> yes
[04:07] <tomaw> at best, it will be a cat and mouse game.
[04:07] <elkbuntu> tomaw, a single user we have to chase through all our channels though...
[04:07] <Seeker`> but I mean, once an op has tried (or several ops) to talk to someone to get them to stop, and banned them from the channel etc., what more can staff do other than k-lining
[04:07] <elkbuntu> (if you'd care to count all the ones with more than 100 users)
[04:08] <elkbuntu> a klining also prevents idiot users from rallying troops
[04:09] <tomaw> it really doesn't
[04:09] <Seeker`> if someone wnats to get round a k-line, they change hosts
[04:09] <tomaw> Seeker`: we can do what we're (not paid) to to do what we're here to do.
[04:09] <elkbuntu> nor are we.
[04:09] <tomaw> I know :)
[04:10] <Seeker`> tomaw: I mean, is the only thing that staff does try to convince them that what they are doing is a bad idea? or is there a magic -moron mode that i dont know about?
[04:10] <tomaw> and yet we somehow seem to have developed a slightly adversarial relationship
[04:12] <Seeker`> tomaw: ^
[04:12] <elkbuntu> tomaw, thats because dually to our feeling left out in the dark, suddenly we get inundated with instructions that we're Doing It Wrong in terms of banning too easily, not catalysing enough (really, do ops have to be the *only* ones who try catalysing), etc
[04:12] <Hobbsee> oy!  what's the new equivalent of seenserv?
[04:13] <tomaw> ask nickserv :)
[04:13] <elkbuntu> should show up in /ns info anyway
[04:13] <Seeker`> /msg nickserv info Nick
[04:13] <tomaw> anyway, back where we sort of were :)
[04:15]  * Seeker` waits for an answer to his question
[04:15] <tomaw> Seeker`: sorry. which?
[04:15] <Seeker`> tomaw: I mean, is the only thing that staff does try to convince them that what they are doing is a bad idea? or is there a magic -moron mode that i dont know about?
[04:15] <elkbuntu> i believe -moron is +m :)
[04:16] <elkbuntu> er, +q
[04:16] <elkbuntu> (m on chanserv.py)
[04:16] <Hobbsee> +m works nicely, too.  when you have lots of morons.
[04:17] <tomaw> If there are people that are causing you guys serious problems then we want to know about it
[04:17] <Hobbsee> op the non-morons.
[04:17] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, indeed
[04:17] <tomaw> There's not doubt about that.
[04:17] <Seeker`> that doesn't answer the question
[04:17] <elkbuntu> tomaw, 'but we did'.
[04:17] <tomaw> elkbuntu: I can only speak for actions here on in
[04:18] <elkbuntu> tomaw, i know. the trust has been broken already though
[04:18] <tomaw> which is part of my reason for speaking here at all
[04:19] <tomaw> the relationship between you guys and freenode is very clearly quite broken
[04:19] <Seeker`> tomaw: so far in trying to determine what staff can do that ops can't, apart from k-line, is get the response "we oversee the network" and "we would like to know about any people you have trouble with"
[04:20] <Seeker`> these come across as very evasive answers
[04:21] <tomaw> Sigh
[04:21] <tomaw> In the middle of me talking about fixing the ubuntu->freenode relationship you decide to pick on that? :)
[04:22] <tomaw> elkbuntu: I would very much prefer we fix that :)
[04:23] <Seeker`> I want the relationship between ubuntu ops and staff to be better, but from some peoples comments it would appear that I am lacking some knowledge. It is extremely frustrating when I am trying to help and I don't seem to be getting answers to the questions I ask
[04:24] <tomaw> I am not sure how it started, but both parties agreeign to drop the adversaterial approach  and opinion would probably go a long way
[04:25] <tomaw> Seeker`: we have various pattern matching abilities that can be useful
[04:25] <Seeker`> useful in what way? Do they help you to talk to the user in a better way? Or do they just help catching people that evade bans etc?
[04:25] <nalioth> Seeker`: helping catch ban evaders
[04:26] <tomaw> they help everything tbh
[04:26] <Seeker`> nalioth: thankyou; that is the answer I have been looking for
[04:26] <elkbuntu> sometimes it's nice just to have backup, especially when you're an op in a low-staffed time zone like hobbsee and i are in.
[04:26] <elkbuntu> (staffed in general - ubuntu and freenode)
[04:27] <tomaw> elkbuntu: what's your timezone?
[04:27] <elkbuntu> tomaw, eastern australia
[04:27] <tomaw> ouch
[04:27] <elkbuntu> tomaw, the one with the big blob of blue above us
[04:27] <tomaw> yes, that's probably not one of our best covered time zones
[04:27]  * Seeker` is pretty much opposite - GMT/ BST
[04:28] <Seeker`> (yes, it is currently 0430)
[04:28] <tomaw> I am there too :)
[04:28] <elkbuntu> tomaw, i think the abandoned feeling probably has corroded hobbsee and i further than the others
[04:28] <tomaw> perhaps
[04:29] <Hobbsee> tomaw: i hate to think how much of #ubuntu just goes completely unwatched, due to no staffers and elky and i often not watching.
[04:29] <Hobbsee> maybe it's better not to know
[04:29] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, especially since im working now, yeah
[04:29] <Hobbsee> heck, soon i lose my ops in there, so it'll be elky and no one.
[04:30] <Seeker`> this whole place is so broken :(
[04:30] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, welcome to teh intarwebs.
[04:30] <Seeker`> as far as  I can tell, there are two ways of running communities - either let it manage itself, or try to enforce rules
[04:31] <Seeker`> we are just floundering in the middle
[04:31] <Seeker`> which leaves us in a very broken position
[04:31] <tomaw> I don't know how far the feeling of discontent between you guys and staff have gone, but I reckon it's probably time we try to work out what's what
[04:31] <tomaw> and that, you guys seem unsure internally too.
[04:32] <Seeker`> we give people enough freedom to be a pain in the arse, but the community as a whole doesn't really do anything to stop trolls etc.
[04:32] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, and i believe it's grown far past the 'manage itself' stage
[04:32] <elkbuntu> too many people
[04:32] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: agreed
[04:32] <Seeker`> but the rules aren't "strict" enough to actually deal with people effectively
[04:32] <Seeker`> there is enough there to irritate people, but thats about it
[04:32] <Seeker`> and when they get wound up, things just get worse
[04:33] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, but that's my point about how much stricter it is now
[04:33] <tomaw> from at least my point of view, I would like to switch away from this channel without feeling that you guys think that freenode is failing to provide what we're here for.
[04:34] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: But its at the point where it is effectively saying "We have ops to deal with 'bad' people, noone else has to worry", but then also not having enough power to effectively deal with people
[04:35] <tomaw> But I am being ignored, so I will shut up :P
[04:35] <Hobbsee> tomaw: what are you actually here for, as staff?
[04:35] <Seeker`> it either needs to be relaxed until the general population can police the community themselves, or toughened just a little more until it is actually useful
[04:35] <tomaw> Hobbsee: correct.
[04:36] <Seeker`> tomaw: I'm not ignoring you. I, personally, don't think staff are really doing anything wrong
[04:36] <Hobbsee> tomaw: bad phrasing - that wasn't what i asked.
[04:36]  * Hobbsee ponders how to rephrase
[04:36] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: You mean "What are staff here for"?
[04:36] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: that's the one.
[04:36] <tomaw> ah
[04:36] <Hobbsee> i swear, this assignment is making my brain die.  it makes multiple references to the InterNet.
[04:36] <tomaw> hehe
[04:37] <Hobbsee> along with incorrect grammar all over the place.
[04:37] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: what assignment?
[04:37] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, so it's just like 'the InterNet' then?
[04:37] <tomaw> personally I try to sit in the ops channels for those that I may do op actions in
[04:37] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: networking assignment
[04:37] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: http://hobbsee.com/tmp/comp247.tar.gz
[04:38] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: do you see my point?
[04:39] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: part 1 looks easy
[04:39] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, i do, but i dont think freenode can cope with the anarchy that will ensue if we step back. they're crying staff poor now.
[04:39] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: yeah
[04:39] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: it's more the latter half...
[04:40] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: yeah, that sucks
[04:40] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: they'll need another recruiting drive.
[04:40] <elkbuntu> oh ick.
[04:40] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: In that case it only really leaves the other option, as staying where we are doesn't seem to work
[04:41] <elkbuntu> yeah, thats another thing that killed the trust... inviting people to ask for not only ops, but staff privs...ick.
[04:41] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, but we dont have the manpower to deal with that
[04:41] <elkbuntu> see, most of the people who would actually be useful ops, dont want to be ops
[04:42] <Seeker`> I would be willing to help
[04:42] <Seeker`> although I dont know if i fit in the "potential useful ops" category
[04:42] <elkbuntu> we need more than just you
[04:42] <Seeker`> sadly I can only volunteer my own time
[04:42] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: although, giving him ops would probably be a good idea, imo.
[04:42] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, we'll put it to... the council
[04:42] <elkbuntu> but.
[04:44] <elkbuntu> that doesnt hold against the fact that we've asked numerous long-time helpers who dont want to be ops because of how they see us get treated in general.
[04:44] <elkbuntu> or, how they've seen people who associate with this channel get treated
[04:45] <elkbuntu> not everyone is ready to be cyberstalked
[04:45] <tomaw> Hrm, I just reliased that it's actually getting light here, so I should probably be somewhere else.
[04:45] <Seeker`> tomaw: bed?
[04:45] <elkbuntu> i should have been somewhere else hours ago, but it's too late now
[04:45] <tomaw> there would be good :)
[04:45] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: You should put out an advert, "Free cyberstalker with every +o"
[04:46] <Seeker`> tomaw: I'm considering it too
[04:46] <tomaw> ooh, those sound cheap
[04:47] <tomaw> Indeed, elkbuntu probably has five hours on us, leave her with it all :)
[04:47]  * tomaw hides
[04:47] <elkbuntu> tomaw, that's why i've been using plastic plates for the past week
[04:48] <Seeker`> ?
[04:48] <elkbuntu> i dont get time to clean on the weekend because of all this
[04:48] <tomaw> easier to throw at Seeker?
[04:48] <tomaw> ah
[04:48] <elkbuntu> and i sure as heck dont have energy during the week after my commute
[04:48] <tomaw> ouch
[04:49] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, you know where i live, and where i work now, right?
[04:49] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: i'm unsure of the location of where you work now.
[04:49] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, st leonards
[04:50] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, i catch the train each day
[04:50] <Seeker`> laptop in bed :D
[04:50] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: how many people have turned down ops?
[04:50] <Hobbsee> ahhh, nice.
[04:50] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, not sure the exact figure
[04:51] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, the train is usually sardined by the time it gets to west ryde
[04:51] <Hobbsee> hah.  that does not surprise me.
[04:51] <Hobbsee> i don't think i'll live in sydney, when i move out.
[04:51] <Seeker`> I suspect that it is possible to run it with the current number of ops, but it would probably take a very different approach to the one that is currently taken
[04:51] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, the current number is fine. the current geographical dispersal is not.
[04:52] <elkbuntu> or, more to the point, the current timezone awakeness dispersal
[04:52] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: convince some workemates to dedicate their lives to IRC :P
[04:52] <elkbuntu> ha.
[04:52] <Seeker`> what time is it there? now?
[04:52] <elkbuntu> Seeker`, 2pm
[04:52] <Seeker`> hmm, too many ?
[04:53] <Seeker`> so you are waking up when GMT are going to bed (mainly)
[04:53] <elkbuntu> pretty much
[04:53] <Seeker`> but by the time you get to evening, GMT are waking up again, correct?
[04:53] <elkbuntu> mostly
[04:54] <elkbuntu> evening is when i have time to spare, during the week. when there's already gmt people available
[04:54] <Seeker`> I think thats the same for most poeple
[04:54] <Seeker`> there needs tobe a few more people from middle-asia
[04:55] <elkbuntu> yep
[04:56] <Seeker`> actually, no
[04:56] <Seeker`> You want people who are about 9pm at the moment
[04:56] <elkbuntu> or, peope who are generally awake aussie daytime
[04:56] <Seeker`> maybe a little earlier
[04:56] <Seeker`> 8pm maybe
[04:57] <Seeker`> which is UTC + 15, or UTC - 9
[04:57] <Seeker`> which is west coast USA
[05:03] <Seeker`> tj83: how can we help you?
[05:03] <tj83>  #ubuntu needs a moderator in regards to  boobmcgeeyo and language. multiple user request.
[05:04] <elkbuntu> tj83, im in there. im not seeing any further action since i muted him
[05:04] <Seeker`> elkbuntu: it wouold seem that ubot3 isn't redirecting ops calls to here
[05:04] <tj83> ok... thats fine.. didnt know who if anyone was watching... and then others were asking how to block him..
[05:05] <elkbuntu> thats ok, i highlight on !ops, Seeker`
[05:05] <elkbuntu> tj83, im opped up in there
[05:05] <tj83> thank you
[05:05] <tj83> bye
[05:06] <nalioth> Seeker`: ubot3 is not programmed to be a primary bot  :|
[05:06] <Seeker`> nalioth: fair enough
[05:06] <Seeker`> just thought i would point it out
[05:06] <elkbuntu> all good ops highlight on '!ops' anyway
[05:07] <Seeker`> :P
[05:08] <elkbuntu> i would dearly love to get dressed before dusk today
[05:08] <Seeker`> I should probably get some sleep before sunrise
[05:09] <Seeker`> gah, too late
[05:09] <Seeker`> Sunrise:4:49
[05:11] <Seeker`> time for sleep I guess
[05:11] <Seeker`> have a good afternoon
[05:16] <elkbuntu> nalioth, are you going to hang around?
[05:17] <elkbuntu> i really need to get some cleaning done here
[05:18] <nalioth> my bed is calling me, too
[05:21]  * elkbuntu curls up in a ball and wails
[05:22] <elkbuntu> dude, if you could see the state of my flat...
[05:37] <tonyyarusso> Good lord.  Why must I read the hypocritical reaction post before the original...
[05:42] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: hm?
[05:49] <elkbuntu> oh yay. tony is here, i can go buy food
[05:53] <Hobbsee> !sru
[05:53] <nubotu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[05:53] <Hobbsee> can we get taht into #ubuntu-motu please?
[06:05] <tonyyarusso> lol elkbuntu ... So if I go on vacation for a week, will you starve?
[06:07] <tonyyarusso> tomaw: re: some of the stuff you said earlier, I think a large portion of the Ubuntu<-->Freenode friction has actually been less in between the distince entities and more to do with the overlap.  One option that various people have put forth (and I would support) is introducing a policy that individuals not serve as both Freenode staff and Ubuntu IRC Council members simultaneously, to eliminate the perceived "conflict of interest" problems
[06:07] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I just went through like a day and a half of backscroll.
[06:44] <jussi01> good morning all!
[07:02] <tomaw> tonyyarusso: tbh I haven't seen much to support that, although I do agree it will remove the complication
[07:02] <tonyyarusso> tomaw: I don't know that it was necessarily voiced here (other than myself just now)
[07:02] <tomaw> that said, it 07:02 and I really should be in bed :)
[07:03]  * tomaw adds "fix ubuntu" to his todo list and hides for a few hours
[07:04] <tomaw> tonyyarusso: ah, I think I have actually seen references to it a few times and it's possible some of those have added tension
[07:06] <tomaw> That said, thanks for reading my comments :)
[07:06] <tomaw> And I really *must* get some sleep.
[07:07] <tonyyarusso> sleep well
[08:20] <tonyyarusso> jussi01: where da bot go?
[08:34] <jussi01> tonyyarusso: server is down because of isp rerouting IP's and someone screwed up
[08:35] <jussi01> back tomoroow... hopefully
[08:54] <Myrtti> I'm sorry if I use harsh language that's against the IRCguidelines and COC and whatnot, but What The Fuck is happening to us here?
[08:55] <Myrtti> I just read the backlog and that is the only thought in my head.
[08:58] <Myrtti> I don't want / I can't comment on the actual content of the discussion, but isn't this a tad unproductive? FFS, we need facetime. Someone ask someone to donate us a heap of money so you all could be flown here to Finland, get you in the middle of some Finnish swap in an abandoned cottage or something and talk this thru
[08:58] <Myrtti> s/swap/swamp/
[08:58] <Myrtti> I'll provide the bofferbats.
[08:59] <jussi01> :)
[08:59] <Myrtti> then we could all just smack eachother to the head with soft things when you
[08:59] <Myrtti> 've got aggressive feelings like that
[09:01] <Myrtti> oh yeah, and the only food available would be carrots, white wine, and tinned spam and beans.
[09:02] <Myrtti> then we'd really have to hurry to get things resolved before starving
[09:09] <Hobbsee> Myrtti: could they actually be resolved, in current configuration?
[09:10] <Hobbsee> Myrtti: i'm not sure that it's agression that people have - it seems more to me that people have fundamental differences of opinion on the way that things should be done, which appear to be mostly exclusive.
[09:10] <Hobbsee> (just a thought)
[09:11] <Hobbsee> particualrly as everyone believes themselves to be right, of course.
[09:15] <ikonia> Hobbsee: found your bug on motu bug logging interesting, did that come from you, or did you just log it
[09:17] <Hobbsee> ikonia: er, what?
[09:17] <Hobbsee> ikonia: someone else filed that...
[09:17] <ikonia> ah
[09:17] <ikonia> it was under your name
[09:17] <Hobbsee> okay, which thing and where?
[09:18] <ikonia> 1 moment
[09:18] <ikonia> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/reportbug/+bug/231316
[09:19] <Myrtti> Ekushey: how may we help you?
[09:19] <ikonia> guys got an issue in #ubuntu
[09:19] <ikonia> two guys jabbering in malaysian, being a bit of pain
[09:19] <ikonia> they can speak english but refuse to
[09:19] <ikonia> miz_blue is one
[09:19] <ikonia> co_chun is the other
[09:19] <ikonia> co_mau sorry
[09:21] <Ekushey> Myrtti: hi... i wasn't looking for any help actually
[09:21] <ikonia> Myrtti: thank you
[09:21] <Ekushey> Myrtti: loco team ops can't stay here?
[09:22] <Myrtti> Ekushey: well, that's the way I started things, but currently the channel for loco ops is #ubuntu-irc
[09:22] <Myrtti> ikonia: note, I didn't ban them
[09:22] <elkbuntu> Ekushey, this channel's focus is the main channels, #ubuntu-irc is more for loco ops, it'll be less chaotic too
[09:22] <ikonia> noted
[09:22] <Ekushey> Myrtti: oh ok, so that's my place then... thanks
[09:23] <Myrtti> np
[09:23] <elkbuntu> tonyyarusso, no, if you go on vacation next week, #ubuntu will be unmonitored during utc early morning
[09:23] <elkbuntu> note that this is weekend.
[09:23] <Hobbsee> ikonia: like i say, i did not file that.
[09:23] <Hobbsee>  (undecided)  Bug #231316, first reported on 2008-05-17  by  Andrew Sayers (andrew-bugs-launchpad-net: 81)
[09:23] <ikonia> Hobbsee: ahh thank you
[09:24] <jussi01> elkbuntu: Im usually around from 8am onwards (6am bst)
[09:24] <ikonia> Hobbsee: the email that came from you suggest at a glance it was your bug, hence why I was interested our thoughts behind it
[09:24] <ikonia> your that should have read
[09:24] <ikonia> not our
[09:25] <ikonia> sticking y key
[09:26] <Hobbsee> ahhh.  no, i subscribed more people to it
[09:27] <ikonia> Myrtti: heads up on cew
[09:27] <Myrtti> noted
[09:27] <ikonia> looks like the same guy
[10:01] <Myrtti> erhm. http://paste.ubuntu.com/16145/
[10:02] <Myrtti> I must be going insane
[10:18] <Myrtti> Hobbsee: talking face to face might help
[10:50] <Myrtti> and you all need more hugs.
[11:00] <Hobbsee> nalioth: can you hand out some klines for the misbehaving bots please?
[11:00] <Hobbsee> irseek ones in #ubuntu-meeting
[11:01] <Hobbsee> IRSeekBot55 and IRSeekBot18, it appears
[11:05] <Myrtti> yeah, aforementioned drops in xubuntu too
[11:05] <Myrtti> annoying
[11:05] <Myrtti> isdn-connection on a logbot...
[11:05] <Myrtti> rhhhhhr
[11:08] <Myrtti> [12:47] *** IRSeekBot55 [n=IRSeekLo@bzq-219-46-202.isdn.bezeqint.net] has quit [Excess  Flood]
[11:08] <Myrtti> [13:02] *** IRSeekBot11 [n=IRSeekLo@bzq-219-46-202.isdn.bezeqint.net] has quit [Excess  Flood]
[11:09] <Hobbsee> Myrtti: nothing we can do, till a staffer turns up.  don't you love it?
[11:10] <Myrtti> ban them?
[11:10] <Myrtti> that's what they do in IRCnet
[11:10] <Myrtti> I think I'll do just that
[11:10] <Hobbsee> well, i did from -meeting
[11:12] <Myrtti> see, doesn't need staff after all.
[11:12] <Myrtti> /me goes to make another yummy bread.
[11:12] <Myrtti> and I might as well do it in #ubuntu too.
[11:14] <Myrtti> NOTE TO ALL OPS: I've BANNED IRSeek bots from #ubuntu due to their sucky connection which makes them quit due to Excess flood. Feel free to remove the bans if the bots regain better net.
[11:15] <Hobbsee> Myrtti: PriceChild has piped up and told me that i'm wrong, so he can deal with them
[11:16] <Myrtti> Hobbsee: I'm not sure I'm getting what your saying, but anyway I've done my .02€
[11:16] <Hobbsee> Myrtti: ie, he can deal with the bad bots, and find staffers who can kline.
[11:16] <PriceChild> forward works fine for me ^ tis a client issue
[11:16] <Myrtti> oh, forgot that
[11:17] <Myrtti> no, I actually don't want them to be forwarded anywhere
[11:17] <Myrtti> come to think of it
[11:18] <Myrtti> feel free to correct my methods of dealing with those bots with sucky connection
[11:31] <PriceChild> Got in touch with irseek via their website contact form and ariel_eran has appeared to help.
[11:34] <PriceChild> Cause of problem has been found and fixed, won't happen again.
[11:41] <Myrtti> hm, didn't think of that myself :-<
[11:44] <PriceChild> Myrtti: I'm sure we'll survive :)
[11:44] <Myrtti> yeah
[11:44] <ompaulafk> that folks was me banning someone who used my nick
[11:44] <bazhang> saw that :)
[11:44] <bazhang> gnine from offtopic?
[11:44] <PriceChild> gnine?
[11:44] <ompaulafk> so it appears
[11:44] <PriceChild> soooo slow
[11:45] <Myrtti> that was gnine?
[11:45] <Myrtti> what the heck was he thinking
[11:45] <ompaulafk> gone I from #ubuntu
[11:45] <PriceChild> /msg nickserv help ghost & help set enforce ftw
[11:46] <ompaulafk> well the thing is I did ghost
[11:46] <ompaulafk> but it won't let me /nick
[11:46] <bazhang> Gnine (n=gnine@c-71-199-186-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net from offtopic
[11:46] <PriceChild> They have reconnected.
[11:46] <PriceChild> use enforce
[11:46] <PriceChild> that will allow you to nick, because they will be forced into changing nicks
[11:47] <Myrtti> PriceChild: lovely summer breeze, isn't it... your slip is showing though from under your frock.
[11:47] <Myrtti> :->
[11:49] <ompaulafk> PriceChild, I don't seem to be able to use /nick after putting enforce on
[11:50] <PriceChild> ompaulafk: wait for it to be enforced, takes a minute i think (time to identify)
[11:50] <ompaulafk> ack
[11:51] <ompaulafk> welcome what were you playing at?
[11:51] <ompaulafk> this btw is -ops
[11:52] <PriceChild> ompaulafk: you can unenforce it and nick now
[11:52] <Gnine> nice failsafe.. i was just messing around for no reason.. checking nicks i know.. nothing malicious really
[11:53] <Gnine> bored
[11:53] <ompaulafk> well here is a clue
[11:53] <ompaulafk> you took the nick of someone else
[11:54] <ompaulafk> the other person may have chats that are not for public consumption
[11:54] <Gnine> no way.. i changed to Gnine
[11:54] <ompaulafk> I locked you out of #ubuntu
[11:54] <ompaulafk> and #ubuntu-offtopic
[11:54] <ompaulafk> you used someone elses nick
[11:54] <ompaulafk> not very good
[11:54] <Gnine> and then i got this guest14133 nick
[11:54] <ompaulafk> cos I told nickserv I did not like you
[11:55] <ompaulafk> :)
[11:55] <ompaulafk> that in the sense of anyone using my nick
[11:55] <Gnine> ok.. my bad.. curiousity killed the cat
[11:56] <ompaulafk> seems so
[11:56] <Gnine> i also tried myrtti.. nothing happened until i tried yours
[11:56] <ompaulafk> please sit there for a min
[11:56] <ompaulafk> cos I was off line for a moment
[11:56] <Myrtti> Gnine: well suprise you didn't get it
[11:56] <ompaulafk> or longer
[11:56] <Myrtti> since I'm USING IT
[11:57] <Myrtti> what relay shorted to make you even consider fooling around with nicks, and especially OPS nicks?
[11:58] <ompaulafk> drop iq loop to lower than the average bear
[11:58] <Myrtti> it's like picking blood from nose
[11:58] <Gnine> i tried SNuxol if that makes you feel better ..
[11:58] <ompaulafk> I'll be back in a few mins
[11:58] <bazhang> !etiquette
[11:58] <nubotu> Unsure how you should behave on this channel? See (in a private message with the bot, /msg ubottu <keyword>): !AskTheBot, !CoC, !Guidelines, !Offtopic, !Language, !Attitude, !Repeat, !Enter, !Paste, !NickSpam, !PM, !English - And most importantly, use common sense...
[11:58] <Myrtti> Gnine: no, it doesn't actually
[11:59] <Myrtti> Gnine: if I'm bored, I start rummaging through del.icio.us or launchpad bugs or find some cool new app to compile
[11:59] <Gnine> like i said.. i wasnt trying to do anything other than just seeing nick availability ..
[12:00] <Myrtti> Gnine: /whois works for that too
[12:00] <Myrtti> it tells you if the person is online or not
[12:00] <Myrtti> also nickserv tells you if the nick is registered or not
[12:00] <Myrtti> if the person using it is offline
[12:00] <Gnine> i have known you guys for a while now.. it was not my intention to destroy you or whatever
[12:00] <Myrtti> you DONT go /nick Myrtti
[12:01] <Myrtti> how long have you been using IRC, gnine?
[12:02] <ompaulafk> I am of a mind to make that a long term ban because you have been on irc for a fair while
[12:02] <ompaulafk> you should be aware of the fact that you are representing other people on the network
[12:03] <ompaulafk> you open your mouth 99% of people see ompaul saying something
[12:03] <Myrtti> it's like one of the taboo's of IRC netiquette that you've broken, Gnine
[12:03] <ompaulafk> you think you can represent my views
[12:03] <Gnine> yes. am guilty of playing around with the system. however, i did not do any harm, in my opinion . it's your call
[12:03] <ompaulafk> I doubt it
[12:03] <ompaulafk> go away and come back in 8 hours or more
[12:03] <Myrtti> scoot.
[12:04] <Myrtti> choo.
[12:04] <Gnine> i did not go into any chatroom with anyones nick
[12:04] <ompaulafk> you were in #ubuntu
[12:05] <Gnine> other than Gnine.. to my knowledge.. that is..
[12:05] <Myrtti> [14:03] < b33r> Hello my pc got turned off by a power problem without proper shutdown  now ubuntu finishes loading and freezes on startup with some strange hdd  sounds, can anyone help me please?
[12:05] <ompaulafk> * ompaul (n=gnine@c-71-199-186-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has left #ubuntu (requested by ompaulafk)
[12:05] <ompaulafk> * ompaulafk sets ban on *!*@c-71-199-186-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net
[12:05] <ompaulafk> * ompaulafk sets mode +d #ubuntu JF
[12:05] <ompaulafk> * ompaulafk sets ban on ompaul!*@*
[12:05] <ompaulafk> * ompaulafk sets ban on *!?=gnine@*
[12:05] <Myrtti> [14:04] < Sladjannn> b33r, you shoul reinstal ubuntu
[12:05] <Myrtti> [14:04] < Sladjannn> should*
[12:05] <Gnine> then again .. how could i take a registered nick then
[12:06] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: we can ban IRCseek if users ask for it?
[12:06] <ompaulafk> Gnine, lets do it this way - go away and come back in more than 8 hours
[12:06] <ompaulafk> Myrtti, ban
[12:06] <ompaulafk> and chat
[12:07] <ompaulafk> Gnine, as I said go away
[12:07] <ompaulafk> if you don't I will remove you here and make that multiple days
[12:07] <ompaulafk> !guidelines | Gnine
[12:07] <nubotu> Gnine: The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[12:07] <ompaulafk> Gnine, you still on irc ....
[12:07] <ompaulafk> I guess time to understand something
[12:07] <ompaulafk> you just went to 2 days
[12:07] <Gnine>  - /nick doesnt just give me access to a registered nick.. you're not making sense .. and i didnt do anything other than using /nick
[12:08] <ompaulafk> firstly I could not log on as myself
[12:08] <ompaulafk> and secondly this is the fun part
[12:08] <Gnine> i dont know your password..
[12:08] <ompaulafk> you joined #ubuntu
 * ompaulafk sets ban on *!*@c-71-199-186-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net
 * ompaulafk sets mode +d #ubuntu JF
 * ompaulafk sets ban on ompaul!*@*
 * ompaulafk sets ban on *!?=gnine@*
[12:08] <ompaulafk> what was that then
[12:08] <Myrtti> Gnine: people could send you messages meant for ompaul
[12:08] <Myrtti> that's bad.
[12:08] <ompaulafk> a figment of my mind
[12:09] <ompaulafk> Gnine, get out of here for two days
[12:09] <Gnine> i did not crack your password..
[12:09] <ompaulafk> you entered #ubuntu using my nick which you know is not yours
[12:09] <ompaulafk> go away for three days
[12:09] <Gnine> i have no interest in that whatsoever
[12:09] <Myrtti> Gnine: go. Please
[12:09] <Myrtti> Gnine: for your best intrest
[12:09] <ompaulafk> you see the problem here is that you are heading for a week
[12:09] <ompaulafk> then a month
[12:10] <ompaulafk> then permban
[12:10] <Myrtti> arguing with an angry ompaul isn't a good idea
[12:10] <Gnine> and you really thing thats the way to go.. nice..
[12:10]  * ompaulafk growls
[12:11] <ompaulafk> so that is next sunday
[12:11] <bazhang> yet he treated it like a joke
[12:11] <Myrtti> /me contemplates on supahsicrit ban calendar ics.
[12:11] <ompaulafk> well he can
[12:12] <SWAT> Myrtti: when you got the idea worked out, let me know ;)
[12:12]  * ompaulafk buys SWAT a coke and says no more
[12:12] <Myrtti> perhaps.. hmmm..
[12:12] <Myrtti> the bantracker could generate an ics file... with default length of bans...
[12:12] <SWAT> ompaulafk: thanks! I really needed that caffeine and sugar rush
[12:13] <Myrtti> then one could ...
[12:13] <ompaulafk> :)
[12:13] <Myrtti> from the bantracker extend the time?
[12:13] <Myrtti> there. Now go code.
[12:14] <ompaulafk> heh?
[12:14]  * ompaulafk wonders
[12:17] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[12:25] <ompaul> zwnj, how can we help you?
[12:26] <gnomefreak> what is the command to show the bans in a channel? i thought it was /mode -b #channel
[12:26] <zwnj> i have a problem with lists.ubuntu.com, but i don't know where is the right place to ask it
[12:26] <gnomefreak> it keeps telling me you have to be ops to do that
[12:27] <Myrtti> gnomefreak: which client?
[12:27] <gnomefreak> zwnj: file a bug or use a different browser beofre filing the bug against ubuntu
[12:27] <gnomefreak> Myrtti: irssi
[12:28] <Myrtti> /bans
[12:28] <gnomefreak> thats it?
[12:28] <gnomefreak> i remember it being longer but i will try
[12:28] <gnomefreak> ha it does work :) thanks Myrtti
[12:28] <Myrtti> np
[12:28] <zwnj> i'm the admin of ubuntu-l10n-fas, and the requests list in mailman/admindb/ is so large that server doesn't response
[12:28] <zwnj> ok, i'm gonna file a bug
[12:29] <ompaul> zwnj, mail elmo first
[12:29] <zwnj> ompaul: oh, oki, thanks
[12:29] <ompaul> with a dear sysadmin any idea what to do here :)
[12:32] <ompaul> qmario_, what you doing here?
[12:34] <gnomefreak> is there a /unban all insead of /unban -first or /unban 3 ect..
[12:34] <ompaul> I think that is a function of the client moreso
[12:35] <gnomefreak> oh i though it was freenode
[12:35] <ompaul> irc does have some rfcs :)
[12:36]  * gnomefreak wonders why my script isnt working i guess i will look at it after smoke maybe breakfast
[12:36] <Myrtti> oh wow
[12:36] <Myrtti> /me reads /help knockout
[12:42] <Seeker`> wow, there has been a lot going on this morning
[12:58] <PriceChild> gnomefreak: We can ban Irseek. End of. What's your real question?
[12:59] <PriceChild> ompaul: I suggest you leave enforce on.
[13:00] <ompaul> PriceChild, had to remove it to get the other nick back
[13:11] <Myrtti> ok, somehow, out of the blue, I experience again the feeling that could be only described as misagony "the lot of you, sod off." I'm going to close irc now for a while.
[13:11] <jussi01> *cry*
[13:11] <ikonia> Myrtti: what's up ?
[13:12] <Seeker`> Myrtti: *hug*
[13:15] <PriceChild> cody is giving me a grilling in PM
[13:15] <jussi01> PriceChild: about?
[13:16] <Seeker`> PriceChild: Are there burgers involved?
[13:18] <PriceChild> the council, its problems, etc. etc.
[13:18] <PriceChild> I assume it is related to whether he wants to allow us access to #xubuntu.
[13:24] <jussi01> ahh
[13:37] <jrib> !test
[13:37] <nubotu> Failed
[13:38] <gnomefreak> is ubottu borked?
[13:38] <gnomefreak> bug 230016
[13:38] <jrib> yeah, doesn't seem we have one in #ubuntu
[13:38] <gnomefreak> and nubotu doesnt do bugs it seems
[13:40] <jrib> oh, maybe ubot3 is the bot in #ubuntu and I missed it
[13:40] <jrib> :)
[13:43] <nubotu> bazhang called the ops in #kubuntu (flaccid)
[13:44] <Hobbsee> le sigh.
[13:45] <Hobbsee> how long did he manage?
[13:45] <bazhang> about a minute
[13:45] <bazhang> tried to op in there and chanserv shut me down
[13:45] <bazhang> :)
[14:03]  * gnomefreak wonders who unbanned him
[14:04] <gnomefreak> ah never mind i was looking at bans from wrong channel
[14:48] <PriceChild> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/01/16/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[14:49] <PriceChild> 02:37-02:38 prove that until at least jan 16th, somerville and i agreed council was teh contact for #xubuntu
[14:49] <PriceChild> I am utterly fed up with his games in PM, his refusal to add ubuntuirccouncil to the access list.
[14:50] <PriceChild> And his uncomprehension that there has been foul play with him obtaining that channel since.
[14:50] <PriceChild> *lack of comprehension
[14:54] <PriceChild> I don't care how he did it, but unless someone owns up to it, I'm not willing to put up with his agenda any longer.
[14:56] <nubotu> In #ubuntu-bots, [Realin] said: !what is best irc
[14:56] <Seeker`> PriceChild: :|
[15:11] <PriceChild> I have been talking with cody, and although he accepts he didn't own the channel in january, he declines to comment on how he gained ownership.
[15:12] <PriceChild> He also explicitly stated he did not want to comment on how ownership was given to him, or whether he even knew how.
[15:12] <PriceChild> I would have prefered to copy his exact words here but he wouldn't give permission.
[15:13] <PriceChild> nalioth: elky: What would you say about requesting founders flags from freenode of #xubuntu and #xubuntu-offtopic?
[15:16] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: it was given to him from seveas when i wasnt here one day since i got it from crimson when he got tired of it
[15:16] <gnomefreak> than i made and reg. #x-ot
[15:17] <PriceChild> gnomefreak: when was this?
[15:17] <gnomefreak> am i the only one that got pings from bashohIII leaving
[15:17] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: end of last year beginning of this year
[15:17] <PriceChild> gnomefreak: (ie was it after jan 16th of this year?)
[15:18] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: i dont remeber the date i was too pissed off at the time
[15:18] <gnomefreak> wtf is with the beeping
[15:19] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: it had to be before 16th
[15:19] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: i went into hospital on the 15th
[15:19] <gnomefreak> give or take
[15:19] <ikonia> gnomefreak: no your not the only one, I get pings too, he's done it under other nicks too
[15:20] <gnomefreak> ikonia: im still pinging
[15:20] <ikonia> stopped for me
[15:20] <jpds> pings?
[15:20] <Seeker`> ikonia: o/
[15:20] <ikonia> ahh Seeker` your awake good man
[15:20] <gnomefreak> maybe that was why
[15:20] <ikonia> Seeker`: got some time say 5:30-ish
[15:20] <Seeker`> ikonia: I've been awake for 3 hours :D
[15:20] <ikonia> ooh
[15:20] <ikonia> sorry, I've been away, just come back
[15:21] <Seeker`> tis ok
[15:23] <gnomefreak> ok i think that should fix it in most channels
[15:23] <PriceChild> gnomefreak: It would be great if you could find that in logs. If it is the case, it was a seveas individual decision, not a council one. I am also unsure why somerville would want to hide it so much?
[15:23] <ompaul> !bot
[15:23] <nubotu> I am ubottu, the all-knowing infobot, standing in for ubotu while he's getting his haircut done, nose powdered, updated and transitioned to his new gorgeous looks in the near future ;)
[15:23] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: it was last year i wish i knew a round about date to start looking
[15:24] <gnomefreak> maybe info the channel?
 free open source software... claims to be all about community and freedom, when in actual fact. its more about comunism
[15:24] <ompaul> run PriceChild run he's after you
[15:24] <gnomefreak> nope that doesnt give me anything
[15:24]  * ompaul waves at cody-somerville as if nothing happened
[15:24] <cody-somerville> Since this discussion appears to have moved to a public channel, I figured I'd join in :)
[15:25] <ompaul> bazhang, (answer) better than a convicted monopoly telling you what to do  you have choice enjoy it while it lasts
[15:26] <gnomefreak> it was after august im fairly sure but once cody-somerville became op seveas had changed it ( i was away and the last year it was either PA or hospital) both over the summe
[15:26] <bazhang> ompaul, I would have to mute myself for offtopic then :)
[15:26] <gnomefreak> before august
[15:26] <ompaul> bazhang, ahh
[15:26] <ompaul> ;-)
[15:26] <jrib> nubotu: are you have identity issues?
[15:26] <nubotu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[15:26] <bazhang> @whoami
[15:26] <nubotu> bazhang
[15:26] <jrib> s/have/having  how did that happen...
[15:26] <cody-somerville> So, does anyone have any objections to me, as the Xubuntu team leader, being the "founder" flag for the Xubuntu channels?
[15:26] <cody-somerville> or whatever the terminology is now
[15:27] <gnomefreak> define founder flag
[15:27] <cody-somerville> contact/owner/etc.
[15:27] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: the logs start in OCT.
[15:27] <gnomefreak> and im sure it was before than
[15:29] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: i have objections to something else that seveas did last year but from what i saw was you wanted to make it private channel and yes i do object to that
[15:29] <gnomefreak> be back smoke
[15:29] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, I have no intention to make #xubuntu a private channel
[15:29] <cody-somerville> so I guess we're good there
[15:30] <Pricey> gnomefreak, if you think it was before october then its irrelevant as we owned it jan 2008
[15:30] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: what is the problem with the irc council being the founders?
[15:31] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, They aren't the Xubuntu team leader :)
[15:31] <Seeker`> but they are the "irc team leaders"
[15:31] <nalioth> cody-somerville: "team leader" and "irc channel founder" are not inclusive
[15:32] <Seeker`> what will them being channel founder stop you from doing?
[15:32] <Pricey> I'm not meaning to get into a debate about who should own it if we were starting afresh/anew etc.
[15:33] <cody-somerville> nalioth, No but the project lead has the prerogative of deciding who owns the project channels
[15:33] <Pricey> I am getting into a debate, as from where I am sitting, there has been foul play in cody-somerville gaining ownership this past couple of months. He refuses to comment on how that happened so far, and unless I misunderstood gnomefreak, that wasn't relevant.
[15:33] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: what will them being channel founder stop you from doing?
[15:33] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, what ever the founder flag allows me to do currently
[15:33] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, and it is also a question of what it allows them to do
[15:34] <Seeker`> Pricey: Can you answer that question ^
[15:34] <cody-somerville> Pricey, There has been no foul play and me refusing to remain silent is not proof
[15:34] <nalioth> cody-somerville: the irc council is the appropriate 'project lead'
[15:34] <Pricey> Seeker`, +F allows us to control exactly how the channel is managed.
[15:34] <cody-somerville> nalioth, That is incorrect.
[15:35] <Pricey> cody-somerville, Does xubuntu have a council and an approved leadership structure all documented?
[15:35] <cody-somerville> Xubuntu has an elected project leader
[15:35] <gnomefreak> Pricey: im 98% sure it was before jan 1
[15:35] <Seeker`> how many people can be set +F?
[15:35] <cody-somerville> That elected individual is myself
[15:35] <Pricey> cody-somerville, sure, you refusing to comment on it isn't proof... but if you had done nothing wrong why wouldn't you prove it?!
[15:35] <gnomefreak> Pricey: staff might have a record of it
[15:36] <Pricey> gnomefreak, I don't think that's going to be possible I'm afraid.
[15:36] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: There have been elected (afaik) members of the irc council, whose role is to manage the irc side fo the ubuntu community
[15:36] <gnomefreak> Pricey: cody was given head of it during a meeting IIRC maybe CC meeting but i remember seeing it
[15:36] <Pricey> gnomefreak, i don't think there has been a meeting since jan 16th, and in that meeting it was quite clear he didn't own it.
[15:37] <gnomefreak> Pricey: it wasnt that i wanted it back im still more concered on why it was pulled it was around the time cody got ops
[15:37] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, Yes but that doesn't give them the authority to trump decisions about the Xubuntu project or its assets
[15:37] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: It is arguable that irc channels fall into their domain
[15:37] <gnomefreak> Pricey: it might have been a dev meeting but i though i saw someone ask him if he wanted it and he sasid yes
[15:37] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, It does but as the project leader I trump that.
[15:38] <Pricey> cody-somerville, we have a community council approved document, stating we are ultimately responsible for ubuntu's irc presence...
[15:38] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: what do you want to do with the channel that you cannot do without +F?
[15:38] <cody-somerville> Pricey, I don't think it really says that
[15:38] <gnomefreak> personally i think council should be first and foremost contact if there is a sencond contact than use an op at that time
[15:39] <cody-somerville> I'm not interested in the IRC Council being involved in the management of the Xubuntu channels what so ever - not until the reform occurs that is.
[15:39] <gnomefreak> but im not real sure who is on ircc at the moment but before i left in jan there were times a member of ircc wasnt around so maybe making a back up if possible
[15:39] <Pricey> My entire reasoning at the moment for questioning your foundership of #xubuntu is not because of who 'should' manage it, it is because I do not trust you and the perceived foul play that has gone on in you getting it int he first place./
[15:39] <cody-somerville> I was going to inform PriceChild today that I would add the council to the access list
[15:39] <cody-somerville> but then he started this mess
[15:40] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: what do you want to do with the channel that you cannot do without +F?
[15:40] <cody-somerville> Pricey, I don't care if you feel foul play has occurred.
[15:40] <Pricey> cody-somerville, a simple "so and so game me contact status of this channel" would clear *Everything* up
[15:40] <cody-somerville> Pricey, You have absolutely no proof and I'm not going to be bullied by the IRC Council.
[15:40] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: what, again?  :)
[15:41] <Pricey> cody-somerville, I've given you proof that you didn't own it in january...
[15:41] <cody-somerville> Pricey, Explain to me how that is relevant.
[15:41] <gnomefreak> Pricey: who did own it than?
[15:41] <Pricey> cody-somerville, *nobody* seems to know how you got it, and you refuse to comment on whether you know how or not.
[15:41] <Pricey> gnomefreak, ubuntuircconcil
[15:41] <Pricey> gnomefreak, i posted a link to an ircc meeting above where me and cody agreed.
[15:41] <gnomefreak> Pricey: ah so why not leave it that way?
[15:41] <Pricey> gnomefreak, as it is now?
[15:42] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: if you are head dev of xubuntu why not just make a -dev channel like ubuntu kubuntu have?
[15:42] <Hobbsee> guys, is there really any point going on about how the irc channel got given to him?  it's old news now.
[15:42] <gnomefreak> Pricey: yes
[15:42] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, I'm the project leader, not just head "dev"
[15:42] <Pricey> gnomefreak, because he has taken stances such as to remove my, the irc council's and freenode staff's access of the channel, just one example of how i don't trust him to be running it.
[15:42] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: For the third time, what do you want to do with the channel that you cannot do without +F?
[15:42] <Pricey> gnomefreak, the fact that he won't explain how he managed to own the channel, adds to my distrust.
[15:43] <Hobbsee> and it's never been a requirement that people admit to everything.
[15:43] <cody-somerville> Pricey, I don't care if you trust me or not
[15:43] <gnomefreak> Pricey: it was given to him by seveas from me but it was well before jan 1
[15:43] <tonyyarusso> Myrtti: I fully agree.  The only solution is a team sauna!
[15:43] <Hobbsee> if the freenode staffers aren't required to admit to everything, why would cody-somerville be?
[15:43] <gnomefreak> Pricey: i had it for a few months after getting it from crimsun
[15:43] <Hobbsee> unless you're starting on a witch hunt, of course.
[15:44] <Pricey> gnomefreak, since jan 16th 2008? if so who gave it to crimsun?
[15:44] <cody-somerville> You and your council have no authority over Xubuntu channels. I'll be applying to have the "group contact" changed to myself and it'll be the end of this mess.
[15:44] <Hobbsee> Pricey: honestly, why does it matter?
[15:44] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: why will you not answer my question?
[15:44] <Pricey> Hobbsee, because I would like #xubuntu to be run decently, and freenode staff's access not removed willy nilly etc. etc.
[15:44] <gnomefreak> Pricey: the old owner gave it to crimsun maybe mez but i doubt it it wa s a nick i never knew but it was a 3 day project thats why i remember it so well
[15:45] <Hobbsee> Pricey: and if this is how you deal with ops, i'd *hate* to see how you dealt with users who disagree with you, who don't have the power to hold you to account.
[15:45] <Pricey> Hobbsee, what have i done?
[15:45] <cody-somerville> You. Are. Being. A. Bully.
[15:46] <gnomefreak> #xubuntu should have same standards as #ubuntu IMHO since users see it as the same other than different DE
[15:46] <Hobbsee> Pricey: this is a publically logged channel, and you bullied cody-somerville on friday and today.  While i'm sure that some of us do disagree with some of cody-somerville's past decisions, it is NOT acceptable for people to hold them against him forever.
[15:46] <Pricey> Hobbsee, I don't understand what I am holding to him forever?
[15:46] <Pricey> this is an issue only days old.
[15:47] <nalioth> regional membership board
[15:47] <cody-somerville> nalioth, hmm?
[15:47] <Hobbsee> nalioth: surely that's for jono to deal with.
[15:47] <gnomefreak> most of us are members
[15:47] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: is on reginal board for us
[15:47] <gnomefreak> US
[15:47] <nalioth> Hobbsee: hows that?
[15:47] <gnomefreak> others i dont remember
[15:48] <Hobbsee> oh, nvm.  i thought you were referring to other things.
[15:48] <nalioth> i am pointing out 'decision making' thought processes
[15:49] <nalioth> i, also, think cody-somerville gained #xubuntu back under shady circumstances ( as it was removed from his control for bad judgement previously )
[15:50] <nalioth> and the fact he won't tell us, only adds to the "shady feeling" of it
[15:50] <Seeker`> should this be something that isd raised at the next CC meeting?
[15:50] <cody-somerville> It wasn't removed from bad judgement
[15:50] <cody-somerville> It was removed by a corrupt member of the council who was later rebuked by the CC.
[15:50] <gnomefreak> should this be something the IRCC tries to decide than if not and still people dont agree move it to CC or to a meeting with jono that way to keep the CC out of it if possible but honestly i think some sort of meeting would be good. a controled meeting so it doesnt get too heated
[15:51] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: who seveas?
[15:51] <Seeker`> well, as far as I can see, the IRC council want +F in #xubuntu, cody-somerville doesn't wnat them to have it
[15:51] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, Clearly not when I get treated like this.
[15:52] <Seeker`> asnd the next step in dispute resolution is the CC
[15:52] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: since he pulled it from me when i was offline for a week or so and gave it to you, i dont think that should be your arguement since its the same thing
[15:52] <Pricey> Seeker`, the irc council doesn't even seem to have made a decision on this
[15:52] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: You still haven't answered my question about what you want to do with the channel that you cant do without +F?
[15:52] <nalioth> cody-somerville: we treat folks as they give us reason to treat them
[15:52] <Pricey> Seeker`, so far it has only been me requesting +F
[15:52] <Pricey> Seeker`, and i haven't even properly requested that yet...
[15:52] <cody-somerville> nalioth, I disagree and so would a number of participants at the UDS session.
[15:52] <nalioth> cody-somerville: obviously, you don't see other chan/proj owners acting this way
[15:52] <cody-somerville> nalioth, Thats because they aren't treated like this
[15:52] <Pricey> I've only asked for access for the council, and an explanation of how he came to own #xubuntu and #xubuntu-offtopic
[15:52] <cody-somerville> They retain control of *their* channels
[15:52]  * gnomefreak thought -F was forward
[15:53] <ompaul> cody-somerville, locos are not distros
[15:53] <Pricey> gnomefreak, /msg chanserv help flags
[15:53] <nalioth> because they've given no reason to be treated like this, cody-somerville
[15:53] <nalioth> gnomefreak: new services
[15:53] <cody-somerville> ompaul, hmm?
[15:53] <Seeker`> and my quetions still hasn't been answered after 15 minutes
[15:53] <cody-somerville> nalioth, rrrright.
[15:53] <nalioth> nor have ours, Seeker`
[15:53] <ompaul> cody-somerville, the other channels you refer to I take it are locos
[15:54] <cody-somerville> ompaul, no
[15:54] <Hobbsee> nalioth: oh, i don't know.  i had a fair few arguments over -kde4....
[15:54] <cody-somerville> ompaul, #kubuntu, #ubuntustudio, etc.
[15:54] <cody-somerville> IF you'll all excuse me, I'll brb
[15:54] <Hobbsee> nalioth: and i was the #kubuntu channel contact at the time.  something about the ops here not deeming it necessary, and forwarding it.
[15:54] <Hobbsee> so i'm not *quite* sure that that statement is correc.t
[15:55] <gnomefreak> whats wrong with a kde4 since we have a +1
[15:55] <nalioth> Hobbsee: that is a different situation
[15:55] <Seeker`> cody-somerville doesn't seem to be able to state why he *needs* +F
[15:55] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, ...
[15:55] <nalioth> gnomefreak: we _have_ #kubuntu-kde4
[15:55] <Hobbsee> nalioth: it's the channel contact disagreeing with the council, and so the council trying to tell them all the reasons that they're wrong.
[15:55] <Hobbsee> nalioth: by that criteria, i'm not seeing the difference?
[15:56] <nalioth> Hobbsee: but cody-somerville was _not_ the channel contact
[15:56] <Pricey> Hobbsee, 'channel contact' used loosely.
[15:56] <gnomefreak> nalioth: its being forwarded from what i jsut read
[15:56] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: i have asked you 4 times over the past 15 minutes what you want to do with the channel that you need +F for
[15:56] <Hobbsee> nalioth: looks to me like he is now, and this discussion is happening now, so...
[15:56] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: each time, the question has been ignored by you
[15:56] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, I'm a little busy to answer support questions ;]
[15:56] <nalioth> Hobbsee: he gained it through means unknown
[15:56] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: that isn't a support question
[15:57] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, Oh.
[15:57] <nalioth> social engineering is not the way to do things
[15:57] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: If there is nothing you want to do that requires +F, why do you need +F?
[15:57] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, I want to be responsible for the channel. That is what the +F is for.
[15:58] <Hobbsee> nalioth: which surely means that you should be examining those who can change channel owners, and see if they made bad decisions.
[15:58] <cody-somerville> Nobody did anything bad
[15:58] <nalioth> Hobbsee: we are attempting to find out who it was
[15:58]  * gnomefreak wonders why it is so important that cody-somerville gets contact
[15:58] <Hobbsee> nalioth: and if social engineering is not the way you do things, then why was Pricey repeatedly bullying?
[15:58] <Pricey> cody-somerville, then why not explain who did what, if none of it was bad?
[15:58] <nalioth> cody-somerville: of course not, because "bad" = what cody-somerville _doesnt_ want
[15:58] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak because I'm witnessing how the IRC Council acts and I don't approve of it.
[15:58] <nalioth> Hobbsee: you are correct
[15:59] <cody-somerville> Pricey, Because I've been instructed not to disclose that information.
[15:59] <gnomefreak> oh i havent seen them do anything wrong since ive been home <that i saw>
[15:59] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak: How they are treating me is *wrong*
[15:59] <cody-somerville> It is called bullying.
[16:01] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: yes im not stupid and i dont see a they bullying you
[16:01] <cody-somerville> "Bullying is the act of intentionally causing unhappiness to others through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation."
[16:02] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: did you miss the part where i said i knew what it was
[16:02] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, No, I read everything you said.
[16:02] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: and only 1 person i saw bullying you not "they"
[16:03] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, Fair enough.
[16:03] <Seeker`> is there any difference between +* and +F?
[16:03] <Pricey> Seeker`, +* isn't a flag, it just grants all flags you are able to, apart from +F
[16:03] <Seeker`> Pricey: I realise that
[16:04] <Seeker`> Pricey: What can someone do with +F that they cant do with +*?
[16:04] <Pricey> remove people with +*
[16:04] <Pricey> remove people with +F even
[16:04] <Seeker`> So If cody-somerville had +* the only thing he wouldn't be able to do is remove the person with +F?
[16:06] <Pricey> As far as I know.
[16:06] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, +F is given to the person responsible for a channel.
[16:06] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, It designated the channel "contact".
[16:06] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: does +* not give you enough control over the channel?
[16:06] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, No it does not.
[16:07] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: as far as I am aware, the irc council are the contact for all #*buntu* channels as far as freenode is concerned
[16:07] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, That has no bearing on Ubuntu policy
[16:07] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, and I do intend to change that.
[16:07] <cody-somerville> (or clarify)
[16:08] <Seeker`> change what?
[16:08] <cody-somerville> I intend to have myself properly registered as the group contact for the Xubuntu namespace.
[16:09] <Seeker`> as far as I can see, the only thing +F gives you is the ability to say "I ARE TEH BOSS!!!one one eleven!!"
[16:09] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, that is most certainly a component of the debate.
[16:09] <Seeker`> the reason the irc council was set up is because one person was the contact for core channels
[16:09] <cody-somerville> Sorry?
[16:09] <Seeker`> this creates a problem if the person suddenly becomes unavailable etc.
[16:10] <cody-somerville> You mean group contact.
[16:10] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: with the way that members of the irc council has behaved on friday and today, can you honestly blame him for wanting them to stay as far away as possible from the channel that he currently is owner of?
[16:10] <gnomefreak> wait a minute what do you mean you intend to change #xubuntu being part of ubuntu policy?
[16:10] <gnomefreak> i hope that was a mistake that you meant something else
[16:10] <Hobbsee> [00:39] <cody-somerville> I was going to inform PriceChild today that I would add the council to the access list
[16:10] <Hobbsee> and then the rest.
[16:11] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, I full intend to emancipate the Xubuntu namespace from this council's control.
[16:11] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: IRC has nothing to do with Ubuntu policy in the sense that policy would include the way EVERYTHING is handled
[16:11] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: is that really helpful, if a non-abusive, non-bullying council gets elected?
[16:12] <cody-somerville> Hobbsee, if the latter occurs, I'll transfer it back
[16:12] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: do you also intend to emancipate Xubuntu from everything to do with ubuntu?
[16:12] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: you'd probably do better to show these logs to the powers that be, which are clear evidence of the bullying (along with friday), and other evidence, and get it dealt with that way.
[16:12] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: you actually solve problems that way, instead of only cutting them out of one area.
[16:12]  * cody-somerville nods.
[16:12] <cody-somerville> Agreed.
[16:13] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, no
[16:13] <Hobbsee> which is probably a good idea, for the good of all* ubuntu* channels.
[16:13] <cody-somerville> indeed.
[16:14] <Hobbsee> besides, the GCF stuff is a pain.
[16:15] <gnomefreak> other than the bullying in here what is wrong with having IRCC contact of channel until this is resolved. seeing as they have to abide by the same rules as users and ops. If they removed or banned someone for fun that i can understand but 1 poerson bullying another should have no afffect on how the council runs a channel since there are 4 or 5 members
[16:15] <cody-somerville> How about we leave me as the contact?
[16:15] <gnomefreak> this should really be handled in a meeting IMHO
[16:16]  * Hobbsee checks exactly what the leadership COC says
[16:16] <gnomefreak> cant leave you as contact since its been changed already
[16:16] <cody-somerville> gnomefreak, I'm still the contact.
[16:17] <gnomefreak> ok hold on let me get the statment im thinking of
[16:17] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: mainly because at least some members of the council have shown significant dislike of cody, have violated the leadership CoC, and may well take it out on things that they have access to, which he is one of the core people of.
[16:18] <Seeker`> would it be acceptable to give the council +*, and have a signed agreement (or similar) that the council will not have this removed by cody
[16:18] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: if they can't follow the leadership CoC, then why would it be expected that they'd follow other rules?
[16:18] <Hobbsee> when some members of the council have clear disagreements with the previous founder.
[16:19] <gnomefreak> 10:44 < cody-somerville > You and your council have no authority over Xubuntu  channels. I'll be applying to have the "group  contact" changed to myself and it'll be the end of  this mess.
[16:20] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i thought he agreed to go for hte more sane solution after that.
[16:20] <gnomefreak> how can it be changed to yourself if its already yourself
[16:20] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: freenode group contact, i thought.
[16:20] <gnomefreak> but you are right info shows you are
[16:20] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: it wasnt stated from what i saw
[16:21] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: if they violated the leadership CoC, why would they be certain to follow any other agreement?
[16:21] <Hobbsee> [01:12] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: you'd probably do better to show these logs to the powers that be, which are clear evidence of the bullying (along with friday), and other evidence, and get it dealt with that way.
[16:21] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: What could they do if cody was +F?
[16:21] <Hobbsee> [01:13] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: you actually solve problems that way, instead of only cutting them out of one area.
[16:21] <Hobbsee> [01:13] * cody-somerville nods.
[16:21] <Hobbsee> [01:13] <cody-somerville> Agreed.
[16:21] <gnomefreak> IMHO there are 4 or 5 members of council why hold all of them responible for what one person did?
[16:22] <cody-somerville> Because the individual did it on behalf of the council?
[16:22] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: not much at all.  that's the point.  they wouldn't be able to change the dynamics of the channel, just as a hatred towards cody.
[16:22] <jrib> what exactly are we talking about that the one person did?
[16:22] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: I am trying to suggest a solution that may be acceptable for everyone until it can be disucseed at CC or similar
[16:22] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: retribution, as it were.
[16:22] <bazhang> seveas one presumes
[16:22] <gnomefreak> if only one person gives you a problem i dont see that being relavant to removing all of the council from contact/leader/ what ever
[16:23] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: because there's no easy way to split them up, unless they seperately get put on the access list.
[16:23] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: (which wouldn't solve the channel contact)
[16:23] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: or is it better to continue the discussion in here for the next x hours, which seems to consist of calling some people bullies and complaining about how things are run
[16:23] <Myrtti> hi-ho hi-ho its handgrenades I throw
[16:23] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: it's been like this for months.  why not just leave it the way it is?  that's what i don't get.
[16:23] <Myrtti> \o/ /o/ \o\
[16:24] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: has pricechild done anything in #xubuntu that would consit of "against the rules"?
[16:24] <Seeker`> Once again, noone has tried to actually suggest a workable solution, its just a case of "My opinion is this. Everyone else can **** off"
[16:24] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i'm not in there.  but i've seen the conduct in here towards him.
[16:24] <gnomefreak> and yes i ask about that channel because that is what the whole is about
[16:24] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: i thought i suggested leaving it in peace, until the CC deals with it?
[16:25] <Myrtti> have a lollipop, the lot of you
[16:25] <Myrtti> a good nap seems to help
[16:26] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: And through my suggestion, the council get the access they require, and can't "overthrow" cody, which is what he seems to be afraid of
[16:26] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: but we are not talking about this channel, since we dont have a private channel this is where all issues should be brought if not in a meeting, but other than bullying him i dont see how this affects #xubuntu since everything happened in here like it should be handled, maybe one of both got a bit too heated and ssaid some things that shouldnt have, cody has made mistakes as has Pricey and myself and everyone else in here op or n
[16:27] <Myrtti> gnomefreak: splitlong.pl
[16:27] <jrib> gnomefreak: you got cut off
[16:27] <Seeker`> gnomefreak: I believe the end of that got lost; "everyone else in here op or n"
[16:27] <gnomefreak> i dont see a real arguement on he should et it because one person bullyed him in -ops
[16:27] <gnomefreak> here op or not IRCC or not
[16:27] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, the council does not require access
[16:28] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: in your opinion.
[16:28] <gnomefreak> cody-somerville: but the whole point behind making it was exactly that
[16:28] <gnomefreak> one of reasons
[16:28] <cody-somerville> And it is broken
[16:28] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: This is a middle ground, you get to keep +F, they get access
[16:28] <gnomefreak> there are others
[16:28] <cody-somerville> so when it gets fixed, I'll add it back
[16:28] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, The council has already lost their middle ground.
[16:28] <gnomefreak> ok so if neither side is gonna agree i say move it to jono or CC let them decide
[16:29] <gnomefreak> or it will never "get fixed"
[16:29] <Seeker`> if cody-somerville is totally unwilling to compromise then i would suggest that there is nothing to be achieved from discussing this further today, and that it should be added to the next CC agenda
[16:29] <Seeker`> cody-somerville: is that the case?
[16:30] <Hobbsee> then again, i'm told that there are  up to 4 nicks that can be listed as +F
[16:30] <cody-somerville> Seeker`, excellent idea.
[16:30] <Hobbsee> which will satisfy both parties, assuming that the irc council does not go and try to change the way #xubuntu works, just because they dislike cody.
[16:31] <Hobbsee> but i prefer Seeker`'s idea as well
[16:31] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: cody-somerville does not even want the council to have +*. I suggest that this conversation is now dropped, as it clearly isn't getting anywhere
[16:31] <Myrtti> Excellent idea
[16:31] <Myrtti> go outside and have a walk.
[16:31] <Hobbsee> Seeker`: fair enough.
[16:31] <Myrtti> sniff the roses, wave your hands, hug a tree.
[16:32] <Hobbsee> . o O { so much for an impartial council, which doesn't let their dislikes of people, or their decisions, getting in the way of them making good decisions... }
[16:32] <Seeker`> Hobbsee: stoppit
[16:32] <Myrtti> oh, I found a yellow-green candy
[16:32] <bazhang> oy
[16:33] <Myrtti> /me goes to get Laku from his cage and makes him to do a guinea pig dance
[16:34] <Seeker`> Myrtti: pics or it didn't happen :P
[16:34] <Myrtti> I might start up the WEBCAM! :-o
[16:34] <Seeker`> :O
[16:34] <bazhang> !laku
[16:34] <nubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about laku, try looking on http://stdin.me.uk/bot/factoids.cgi
[16:34] <bazhang> there should so be a factoid there :)
[16:35] <gnomefreak> what is it?
[16:35] <bazhang> a guinea pig :)
[16:35] <Myrtti> http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/2478789946/
[16:36] <Myrtti> (eating bilberry twigs)
[16:36] <gnomefreak> ah
[16:36] <gnomefreak> oh that name would have been good for edgy guinea<something>
[16:36] <gnomefreak> hes cute
[16:37] <gnomefreak> maybe shes cute
[16:38] <Myrtti> gnomefreak: he's got balls the size of the head of my thumb. so a VERY definite HE ;-)
[16:38] <Myrtti> sorry :-P
[16:38] <Myrtti> and he stinks like a man too
[16:38] <jrib> ha
[16:38] <gnomefreak> :)
[16:39]  * gnomefreak goes back into tech mode for a little hwile
[16:39] <gnomefreak> while
[16:46] <ubot3`> In #ubuntu-bd, shahriar086 said: ! Russell is the team leader of Ubuntu Bangladesh
[16:47] <ubot3`> In #ubuntu-bd, shahriar086 said: !Russell is the team leader of Ubuntu Bangladesh
[16:56]  * Seeker` heads out for a bit
[16:56] <Seeker`> be nice to each other while I am gone :P
[17:11] <ubot3`> In #ubuntu-bd, shahriar086 said: !bd is short form of Bangladesh
[17:11] <ompaul> !bd
[17:11] <nubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about bd, try looking on http://stdin.me.uk/bot/factoids.cgi
[17:11] <ubot3`> In #ubuntu-bd, shahriar086 said: !Bangladesh is a South Asian country
[17:11] <ubot3`> In #ubuntu-bd, google-bot said: !bn is bangla bolte chaile #ubuntu-bd channel e join korun please
[17:12] <Myrtti> ygh.
[17:15] <ompaul> I visited them
[17:16] <ompaul> and they now know to do something "sensible tomorrow"
[17:16] <ompaul> ChanServ- [#Ubuntu-BD] উবুন্টু বাংলাদেশ এর আই‍.আর.সি. চ্যানেলে আপনাকে সুস্বাগতম!
[17:16] <ompaul> quite a nice script
[17:53] <Myrtti> !prayer
[17:53] <nubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about prayer, try looking on http://stdin.me.uk/bot/factoids.cgi
[17:53] <Myrtti> ubot3`:prayer
[17:53] <ubot3`> Dear $DEITY, Give me strength to understand and work with users who question my logic, the rules, netiquette and common sense. Give me resilience to teach them the basics of Linux, Ubuntu, Community Guidelines and IRC. Allow me not to stray to nitpicking, argument, foul language or leisure op abuse. Deliver me my daily xkcd, User Friendly, LWN, /. and Planet Ubuntu, and guard over my encrypted drives. Let it be so.
[17:54] <jpds> hmm, encrypted drives...
[18:27] <Myrtti> hum
[18:28] <Myrtti> ubot3` doesn't report !ops to here?
[18:28] <ubot3`> Myrtti: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[18:28] <Jack_Sparrow> Handled
[18:28] <Myrtti> nalioth: ?
[18:41] <Myrtti> do me a favor, someone say "called the ops in" here
[18:43] <Myrtti> thanks
[18:59]  * Seeker` returns \o/
[18:59] <Myrtti> Seeker`: ^ please, testing hilights
[19:01] <Seeker`> called the ops in
[19:01] <Myrtti> thanks
[19:01] <Myrtti> works wonderfully
[19:01] <Seeker`> all working?
[19:01] <Seeker`> :D
[19:01] <Myrtti> yup
[19:02] <Myrtti> I get a bright blue hilight to my statusbar and that whole line is hilighted in bright blue too
[19:02] <Seeker`> cool
[19:03] <Myrtti> I invited DIL here
[19:03] <Myrtti> [20:46] <+FloodBot3> WARNING: PM from DIL - why am i being blocked
[19:03] <Myrtti> [20:47] <+FloodBot3> WARNING: PM from DIL - !ops
[19:04] <Myrtti> bantracker has more info
[19:04] <Myrtti> I hope
[19:06] <Myrtti> ^btlogin
[19:06] <Myrtti> @btlogin
[19:06] <Myrtti> oh right
[19:06] <Seeker`> ^btlogin
[19:07] <Myrtti> there we go
[19:07] <Seeker`> @btlogin
[19:07] <DIL> i think i was booted from the ubuntu server for responding to an offensive remark made at me, the offender using the ops button quite frequently an was ultimate booted for his troble making please remove the block
[19:08] <DIL> the user was lblaked
[19:08] <DIL> the user was blaked
[19:09] <Myrtti> who has now been banned
[19:09] <Myrtti> anyway
[19:09] <Myrtti> [20:26] < blaked> DIL: that's a stupid question
[19:09] <Myrtti> [20:26] < DIL> fuck you asshole | blaked
[19:09] <Myrtti> [20:26] < Slart> !ops | DIL
[19:09] <DIL> yes
[19:09] <DIL> please remove my ban
[19:09] <Myrtti> do you know and understand why you were banned?
[19:10] <Myrtti> ie. do you understand where you did wrong?
[19:10] <DIL> yes it was an emotional response to a leh=gitimate question this is a learning source for me
[19:10] <Seeker`> Myrtti: did you manage to get on to the bantracker
[19:10] <Myrtti> no
[19:10] <Myrtti> it's offline
[19:11] <Seeker`> :/
[19:11] <jussi01> bantracker is on the same server as ubottu
[19:11] <Myrtti> yup
[19:11] <jussi01> as its a feature of ubottu
[19:11] <Myrtti> I was kinda hoping stdins would've had one too
[19:11] <Seeker`> ubottu is expected back tomorrow?
[19:11] <Myrtti> but losing is a way of life
[19:12] <DIL> me?
[19:12] <jussi01> Seeker`: correct
[19:12] <Myrtti> DIL: if I lift the ban, would you be kind enough to remember that you don't need to stoop to the same level with idiots?
[19:12] <Myrtti> or trolls
[19:12] <Myrtti> or troublemakers?
[19:12] <DIL> of course !!
[19:13] <Myrtti> what was the other preverb that I had in mind...
[19:13] <Myrtti> oh yeah
[19:13] <Myrtti> also remember that wrongdoings of others do not justify yours
[19:13] <DIL> of course !!
[19:14] <DIL>  2wrongs dont make right ......
[19:14] <Myrtti> !guidelines | while I'm figuring out what strings I need to pull to take off your ban, please read this
[19:14] <nubotu> while I'm figuring out what strings I need to pull to take off your ban, please read this: The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[19:15] <DIL> i am always respectfull of others - he crossed the line my response was not appropriate for the forum
[19:15] <Myrtti> thank you
[19:16] <Myrtti> my, if all the banned ones were as easy to handle as you
[19:16] <DIL> :-)
[19:16] <Myrtti> try now
[19:16] <DIL> ty
[19:16] <Myrtti> np
[19:16] <Myrtti> have a nice flight
[19:19] <Myrtti> if they all were as nice
[19:20] <Myrtti> /me goes to make a wine cooler and boots up her desktop computer
[19:40] <Myrtti> hi joejaxx
[19:40] <Myrtti> funny, I've been thinking about fluxbuntu today a lot :-)
[19:47] <Myrtti> note: I banforwarded the person abusing !o.ps and acting like an ass in #ubuntu to here
[19:47] <Myrtti> /mode +b *!*@ip24-250-20-42.ri.ri.cox.net!#ubuntu-ops
[19:58] <blakez> !ops | Myrtti
[19:58] <nubotu> Myrtti: Help! Channel emergency! (ONLY use this trigger in emergencies) - Mez, LjL, elkbuntu, imbrandon, DBO, gnomefreak, Hobbsee, rob, ompaul, Madpilot, Seveas, CarlK, crimsun, ajmitch, tritium, Nalioth, thoreauputic, apokryphos, tonyyarusso, PriceChild, Amaranth, jrib, jenda, nixternal, Myrtti, mneptok, Pici, Jack_Sparrow, nickrud, jpatrick or jussi01!
[19:58] <nubotu> blakez called the ops in #ubuntu-ops (Myrtti)
[19:58] <Myrtti> *yawn*
[19:58] <blakez> lolol
[19:59] <blakez> fuck u Myrtti
[19:59] <Myrtti> soundray: hello
[19:59] <soundray> Hi Myrtti... you busy, or is it resolved? :)
[20:00] <Myrtti> seems to be resolved :-P
[20:00] <Myrtti> I'm procrastinating work again
[20:00] <soundray> Please have a look at Henry_RHodes_III in the main channel
[20:00] <soundray> Keeps posting offtopic and tells people to shut up...
[20:01] <Myrtti> looking
[20:02] <soundray> Thanks -- have to run
[20:05] <ompaul> ri.ri.cox.net
[20:05] <ompaul> hmmm
[20:08] <ompaul> Myrtti, soundray was right :-(
[20:09] <Myrtti> it was the same person?
[20:12] <ompaul> no idea
[21:17] <Myrtti> I most definitely need to get tipsy like this more often, or to find a way to get the similar effect
[21:17] <Myrtti> somehow suddenly life doesn't suck as much
[21:31] <Seeker`> Myrtti: what have you been drinking?
[21:32] <Myrtti> organic white w(h)ine with non-alcoholic cider
[21:32] <Myrtti> about 1:1
[21:33] <Myrtti> I made a bad call on wine on Friday (or was it yesterday, can't remember, yes it was yesterday), so the only way I can make the wine drinkable is adding sweetness to it with the cider
[21:34]  * Seeker` had a pint of westons vintage cider - > 4.3 units per pint
[21:34] <Seeker`> 8.2%
[21:34] <ompaul> a days worth in one pint
[21:34] <Seeker`> yeah
[21:34] <Myrtti> I had scrumpy jack yesterday
[21:34] <Seeker`> hence why i'm not having any cider with my dinner
[21:35] <Myrtti> everyone calls me weird when I say that old rosie is overrated
[21:35] <Myrtti> it tastes too smoky for my pallet
[21:51] <Myrtti> I like the french though ...
[21:52] <Seeker`> somerset / cornish cider is the best
[21:55] <joejaxx> hi Myrtti
[21:55] <joejaxx> :0
[21:55] <joejaxx> :)
[21:55] <Myrtti> noticed I can make the browser crash every time :-P
[21:55] <Myrtti> btw.
[21:55] <Myrtti> :-D
[22:24] <Myrtti> oh dear, jono is online and I'm tipsy ;-)
[22:25] <Mez> Myrtti, go for it ;)
[22:25] <Myrtti> lol
[22:25] <Mez> Myrtti, does this mean we'll be seeing you at LRL this year ?
[22:25] <Myrtti> Mez: you old dirty little
[22:25] <Myrtti> /me goes to brush her teeth and to read Umberto Eco
[22:26] <Myrtti> distant dreams are the best, they never let you down
[22:26] <Mez> Myrtti, lol - I'm just remembering phated and Ade :P
[22:26] <Mez> (though seriously, it'd be nice to meet some of the people that I know from the ubuntu community, other than just the regular UK people (who I think are all crew this year!)
[22:27] <Myrtti> Im meeting jussi01 tomorrow :-o
[22:27] <Myrtti> oh dear.
[22:27] <Mez> you poor thing ;) :P
[22:27] <Myrtti> jono is cute though
[22:28] <Myrtti> I like the old photo of him with the long hair and the Iron Maiden shirt :-D
[22:28] <Myrtti> but he looks cuter now
[22:29] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[22:29] <ikonia> no need to sigh
[22:30] <Seeker`> lo ikonia
[22:30] <ikonia> hello
[22:30] <ikonia> :)
[22:30] <Seeker`> have a good evening?
[22:30] <ikonia> reasonable, got what I needed to get done....done
[22:30] <Seeker`> cool
[22:30] <ikonia> plus nice to see a sort of friend/collegue
[22:31] <ikonia> Seeker`: spun that disk up ?
[22:31] <Myrtti> he is cute as a button though
[22:31] <Seeker`> ikonia: nope, dont have any spare sata slots atm
[22:31] <ikonia> ugh
[22:32] <Seeker`> ikonia: it can wait until I get the case :)
[22:32] <ikonia> of course
[22:38] <Seeker`> ikonia: I probably owe you at least a pint now
[22:39] <PriceChild> Myrtti: is there anyone in ubuntu-irc that isn't cute?
[22:39] <Seeker`> PriceChild: me
[22:40] <Myrtti> PriceChild: hmm...
[22:40] <Mez> PriceChild, stop fishing for compliments ;)
[22:40] <Myrtti> ompaul is an old geezer AND married... though he is cute...
[22:41] <Myrtti> /me runs
[22:41] <Mez> being married doesnt stop you being cute
[22:41] <Mez> though usually getting old does...
[22:42] <PriceChild> How rude
[22:44] <Mez> but then it depends on what you call old really
[22:44] <Myrtti> Mez: being married makes one a no-go in the eyes of certain high moraled individuals
[22:44] <PriceChild> Not Myrtti though.
[22:44] <Myrtti> yes it does.
[22:44]  * PriceChild runs as fast as his legs will carry him
[22:44] <Myrtti> I don't touch tainted meat.
[22:44] <Myrtti> period.
[22:44] <Myrtti> :-P
[22:44] <PriceChild> That's one way of putting it 8-)
[22:45] <Mez> Myrtti, may make you not want to touch
[22:45] <Mez> but you an always look
[22:45] <Myrtti> true
[22:45] <Mez> and doesnt stop them being cute
[22:45] <Myrtti> though I've had my head banged against the wall too many times already
[22:45] <Myrtti> I tend to go towards the "sure bets"
[22:45] <Myrtti> anyway
[22:45] <Jack_Sparrow> Myrtti Get a padded headboard
[22:45] <Myrtti> I'm off to brush the legos, as they say
[22:45]  * PriceChild resists innuendoing that
[22:46]  * Pici blinks
[22:46] <Myrtti> if anyone of you know the band Hanoi Rocks
[22:46] <Pici> Any relation to the Towers?
[22:46] <Myrtti> very much related to Guns'n'Roses
[22:46] <ikonia> Jack_Sparrow: padded headboard....you animal
[22:47] <Jack_Sparrow> ikonia Married for 30 years.. we learned that lesson
[22:47] <Myrtti> the head vocalist of Hanoi Rocks needed new teeths few years ago so they organized a fundraiser to get Andy "a new set of Legos"
[22:48] <Jack_Sparrow> I had never heard that term Legos for teeth..
[22:48]  * Mez knows them
[22:48] <Mez> ikonia, I was thinking the same thing
[22:48] <Mez> was too polite to say though
[22:49] <ikonia> I was too impressed with Jack_Sparrow to not ask
[22:49] <Myrtti> I didn't get the reference until now ;-?
[22:49] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[22:49] <Myrtti> he's still online and I'm not as tipsy anymore... hm
[22:49] <Myrtti> /me wonders has she taken her medication
[22:50] <Myrtti> nightey, everyone
[22:50] <ikonia> night
[22:50] <Myrtti> I'm off
[22:50] <Jack_Sparrow> goodnight
[22:50] <Myrtti> woops, almost typed quit
[22:51] <Myrtti> better do that ctrl-a-d before anymore mistakes
[22:51]  * Pici waves
[22:51] <Myrtti> _o>
[23:23] <bazhang_> is Emiliano running a bot? ubot3 just responded to him when it should not have
[23:26] <Seeker`> bazhang_: in what way?
[23:36] <PriceChild> What should I install with a t8100 processor? Ubuntu 32 or 64??
[23:37] <PriceChild> Seeker`: I have no idea.
[23:37] <ikonia> PriceChild: both should work
[23:37] <PriceChild> ikonia: wasn't really wanting to know sorry, ubot3 just gave odd response in #ubuntu
[23:37] <ikonia> ooh sorry
[23:38] <ikonia> I'm only half awake
[23:38] <Mez> PriceChild, is it a 64 bit ?
[23:38] <Seeker`> he does not want to know the answer to the question
[23:38] <PriceChild> ikonia: hehe you weren't to know
[23:38] <Seeker`> -23:29:31- Seeker`: What should I install with a t8100 processor? Ubuntu 32 or 64??
[23:38] <Seeker`> -23:29:37- ubot3`: Error: Could not parse XML returned by Ubuntu: not well-formed (invalid token): line 387, column 84
[23:38] <Seeker`> -23:29:39- ubot3`: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[23:55] <Pici> I think it was trying to parse a bug
[23:55] <Pici> ubot3`: ubuntu 32
[23:55] <ubot3`> Factoid ubuntu 32 not found
[23:55] <Seeker`> ubuntu 32 or 64
[23:56]  * Pici shrugs
[23:56] <Seeker`> t8100
[23:56] <Pici> What should I install with a t8100 processor? Ubuntu 32 or 64??
[23:57] <Seeker`> You have to do it in PM
[23:57] <Seeker`> "Ubuntu 32 or 64??" sets it off
[23:57] <Seeker`> -23:58:36- ubot3`: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
[23:57] <Seeker`> ass