[04:38] <Hobbsee> Seveas: <#
[04:38] <Hobbsee> Seveas: <3
[04:38] <Hobbsee> (@ kmos)
[18:33] <Syntux> @schedule Amman
[19:13] <lukehasnoname> @schedule cdt
[19:13] <lukehasnoname> @schedule cst
[19:13] <lukehasnoname> @schedule Houston
[19:13] <lukehasnoname> @schedule CST
[19:14] <slangasek> @schedule Chicago
[19:14] <slangasek> there ;)
[19:14] <lukehasnoname> ;_;
[19:15] <lukehasnoname> that was my next try
[19:15] <slangasek> now, where are the GNOME people when I need to told-you-so them about Americans not commonly referring to their timezones by city name...
[19:19] <lukehasnoname> @schedule GMT-6
[19:19] <lukehasnoname> hahaha
[19:20] <Syntux> @schedule Mars
[19:26] <lukehasnoname> How are things in Jordan
[19:30] <Syntux> lukehasnoname, dandy
[19:31] <Syntux> lukehasnoname, ever been there?
[19:31] <lukehasnoname> not at all
[19:32] <lukehasnoname> I've never been more than 1200 miles from home
[19:32] <lukehasnoname> which means I've never been out of Texas :)
[19:32] <Syntux> heh
[19:32] <lukehasnoname> haha, no I've been to tennessee and Colorado and everywhere between and south, if you know the U.S.
[19:33] <Syntux> lukehasnoname, yeah, aware of states names, my brother been there for long time.
[19:34] <lukehasnoname> syntux: Is Jordan peaceful compared to the rest of the region?
[19:35] <Syntux> lukehasnoname, depends how you look at the region, anyway I guess we should take this into PM or #Ubuntu-offtopic
[19:47] <Seeker`> @schedule
[20:00] <mdz> good evening
[20:00] <tkamppeter> hi
[20:00] <Keybuk> evening
[20:01] <mdz> #startmeeting
[20:01] <mdz> MootBot: poke
[20:01] <jdstrand> hi
[20:01] <Keybuk> mdz: wasn't MootBot one of Dennis's?
[20:01] <pitti> hi
[20:01] <mdz> Keybuk: I haven't tried to use it in a while, but was sure it was rescued
[20:01] <pitti> hi
[20:02] <mdz> it doesn't seem to be responding. oh, well.
[20:02] <zul> hello
[20:02] <mdz> [TOPIC] core developer application from Till Kamppeter
[20:03] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001100.html
[20:04] <Keybuk> I really only have one question for tkamppeter
[20:04] <mdz> there looks to have been some controversy in the thread leading up to this application being submitted
[20:04] <Keybuk> and it's entirely unrelated to his core-dev application
[20:05] <mdz> I hope it isn't "why doesn't my printer work?"
[20:06] <\sh> evening
[20:06] <Keybuk> mdz: yes, it pretty much is ;)
[20:06] <tkamppeter> Keybuk, are we still waiting for someone?
[20:06] <\sh> Keybuk, don't buy dell..buy real hardware ,-)
[20:06] <pitti> Till is the prime example for a "specialist" developer; I hardly look at the debdiffs of system-config-printer or foomatic etc. any more, but I would carefully check a gnome-panel or udev upload from him
[20:06] <Keybuk> more "hawlp! my printer doesn't work! what can I do to help you fix it?" :)
[20:06] <mdz> tkamppeter: can you tell us about the concerns which were raised on the list with regard to the Brother driver packages?
[20:07] <mdz> tkamppeter: no, not waiting, we're just a bit slow tonight
[20:07] <mdz> Keybuk and I represent a quorum
[20:08] <tkamppeter> It was that I have uploaded the packages with some quirks in them, like a world-writable directory. I have hurried somewhat to get them in before FF and assuming that there are still 6 weeks in which the very motivated contributors could polish them.
[20:09] <pitti> (please note that this was merely uploaded to NEW, and rejected there; they never actually landed in the archive)
[20:09] <mdz> pitti: tkamppeter mentioned that you had reviewed these packages as well, and approved of their upload. any comment?
[20:09] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: had you taken any steps to motivate the contributors?
[20:09] <Keybuk> or at least alert them to the problems?
[20:09] <pitti> it was partly my fault
[20:09] <pitti> in an effort to process the 23948239432 NEW packages before FF more efficiently, I asked people to just upload, and I'd review them directly in NEW
[20:10] <tkamppeter> Keybuk, I have forwarded everything which pitti told me about which was wrong to them and I got improved packages a day later or so.
[20:10] <pitti> instead of getting them reviewed somewhere else by MOTU first
[20:10] <pitti> mdz: i. e. I said "please upload to NEW, I'll review them", instead of "I review them from <someurl>, then we fix it, then upload" (the standard procedure)
[20:10] <mdz> tkamppeter: were you aware of any of those problems before pitti reviewed the package?
[20:11] <mdz> some of them seemed like basic packaging errors
[20:12] <tkamppeter> The upstream quality of these packages was very bad. They had to do a lot of hacking to get them into a distro-installable form. I have checked the structure and whether they install smoothly on my box and whether they build under pbuilder, but I have really overlooked that there was a world-writable dir in them.
[20:12] <mdz> tkamppeter: doesn't lintian check that?
[20:13] <mdz> non-standard-dir-perm I think
[20:14] <tkamppeter> Probably I have not tried it to drive to complete lintian-cleaniness but looked only on whether it installs and runs.
[20:14] <mdz> tkamppeter: did you run lintian on the package?
[20:15] <tkamppeter> I really must look into the thread again about what exactly I have done and what I have asked the contributor to fix in which stage.
[20:17] <Seeker`> sorry bout the lack of mootbot
[20:17] <Seeker`> there have been big hosting porblems, and it doesn't seem to be working properly on its current host
[20:18] <mdz> Seeker`: sorry to hear it; please email me if there is something I can do to help
[20:18] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: I have a scenario for you.
[20:18] <Keybuk> It's after Intrepid Beta release, and you're getting a lot of bug reports about printers not working.  One of the bug reports has a patch to HAL that people are enthusiastically reporting fixes it for them, and this is getting wide publicity on forums and blogs.
[20:18] <Keybuk> What's your next step?
[20:18] <\sh> tkamppeter, any reasoning to not follow the motu rules for contributed packages from non-motus? I'm curious why you didn't send them to revu/motu with their packages, despite the fact, that motus could upload NEW packages without being reviewed when they were build from themselves
[20:19] <Seeker`> mdz: sadly, most people wont touch eggdrop. I'll try and get it fixed this evening
[20:19] <pitti> that has been discussed on the ML already: FF churn
[20:19] <mdz> pitti: the feedback of yours linked from the council's recommendation seems to pertain specifically to the comments on the brother package.  do you have more general comments as a sponsor other than what you already said about specialization?
[20:19] <tkamppeter> \sh, pitti has told me to directly upload into NEW, due to the FF. If no one has invited me to do so I had taken the standard procedure-
[20:21] <pitti> mdz: My feeling is that tkamppeter understands the freeze rules now, and I trust him enough to upload the printer specific packages (like system-config-printer, cups, foomatic, etc.); he's still not a 100% proficient packager, but a great printing package maintainer and upstream developer
[20:21] <pitti> of course I understand that right now we still don't have this DM-like concept in Ubuntu
[20:22] <tkamppeter> Keybuk, I would try out the package by myself and run it to see whether it improves the situation and does not break anything (as longs as feasable on my box). I would also check through the changes to see whether there is something broken, or whether an extra library (= new dependency) is needed ...
[20:22] <pitti> tkamppeter: what's your answer to Keybuk's scenario?
[20:23] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: ok, so your testing does indeed show that printing works again with the patch, and doesn't introduce any new dependencies
[20:23] <Keybuk> what's next?
[20:23] <tkamppeter> I would also try a build with pbuilder if the patch is non-trivial, to catch an FTBFS due to a new dep.
[20:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: just assume that the package builds, and works now
[20:24] <tkamppeter> If the patch is not very small I would try a lintian to see whether nothing in the package structure broke (or thingslike world-writale dir)
[20:24] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: builds fine, lintian shows no new problems
[20:25] <tkamppeter> If there is enough time and if other users are participating in the bug discussion I would upload the files onto my server (or PPA) and invite the others to test.
[20:25] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: you get a number of thanks from the reporters, and they say it fixes it
[20:27] <tkamppeter> (All assumiung that I do not have the printer in question) Then I would have enough confidence to upload it: Package actually improves situation for owners of the hardware in question, package is lintian-OK, package does not FTBFS, then I would sign and upload it.
[20:28] <tkamppeter> Smaller issued are then hopefully found by the wide Intrepid testing community.
[20:28] <pitti> tkamppeter: how much do you actually know about the guts of hal?
[20:29] <tkamppeter> Only more basic stuff, I have done some simple changes in hal-cups-utils, including making it actually working on Ubuntu. I have read through HAL docs for that.
[20:31] <Keybuk> there are many patches in Launchpad which appear to fix the problem
[20:31] <Keybuk> but are in fact, somewhat wrong
[20:31] <Keybuk> they may break something else you weren't testing
[20:31] <pitti> and create a huge security  hole, or are fundamentally wrong
[20:31] <Keybuk> or they may be deliberate decisions by upstream or by the person in Ubuntu who cares a lot about that
[20:32] <Keybuk> especially if you don't know much about the package in question, it's often an idea to talk to other people first
[20:32] <Keybuk> before applying a patch to HAL, even I generally check with pitti
[20:32] <Keybuk> if he's not around, others like cjwatson, slangasek or myself may be able to spot the problem you're about to introduce
[20:33] <pitti> and patches should generally be sent to upstream; after FF they should even be discussed with upstream *before* applying them (unless it's really obvious, like fixing a NULL deref, or so)
[20:34] <tkamppeter> I am also generally trying to get patches upstream, I akso dislike that the distros deviate too much from upstream as this creates a maintenance nightmare and also a lot of mail about non-upstream problems in upstream forums.
[20:34] <mdz> tkamppeter: if a mechanism were available for you to gain upload privileges for specific packages, rather than all of main (as ubuntu-core-dev currently implies), would you have opted for that rather than ubuntu-core-dev?
[20:35] <mdz> tkamppeter: or are you interested in participating more generally in development?
[20:35] <tkamppeter> For the Common Printing Dialog for example I have informed the relevant upstreams and let my GSoC student make work together with them-
[20:35] <Seeker`> #startmeeting
[20:35] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:37. The chair is Seeker`.
[20:35] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:35] <Seeker`> #endmeeting
[20:35] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:37.
[20:36] <mdz> Seeker`: thanks
[20:36] <Seeker`> the logs wont be available immediately, but hopefully in the next 24 hours or so
[20:37] <tkamppeter> mdz, this mechanism would be enough for me. My plans are simply to continue in the printing area. And on non-printing packages like HAL or so, I would only upload small trivial patches, never a big thing, and I usually ask here on IRC if I am in doubt with a method or idea to get something solved.
[20:38] <mdz> I am told that Launchpad will provide such a mechanism in the foreseeable future
[20:39] <mdz> and so I would like to propose the option of applying for core-dev with a commitment to limit uploads to a named set of packages
[20:39] <mdz> to be transitioned to that new access control mechanism when it becomes available
[20:39] <sirderigo> hola
[20:39] <mdz> Keybuk: would you be willing to consider that?
[20:39] <mdz> iirc we did something similar for rtg
[20:40] <tkamppeter> mdz, so I agree with that. Can we simply say that the TB agrees on that with me and activate this state as soon as the Launchpad is ready?
[20:41] <Keybuk> mdz: as in, grant core-dev privileges until such time as we can make better lists?
[20:41] <mdz> Keybuk: privileges with a social limitation
[20:41] <Keybuk> that was my feeling of the right course
[20:41] <mdz> until that social limitation can become a technical one
[20:42] <Keybuk> tkamppeter: would you be happy limiting yourself to printing packages, and where there are patches to things like HAL, still working with others like pitti to have them upload them?
[20:42] <tkamppeter> mdz, I will upload only printing stuff directly, for other things I will ask others whether it is OK before uploading.
[20:43] <mdz> tkamppeter: we will need a list of packages
[20:43] <mdz> tkamppeter: could you prepare such a list and email it to technical-board? then we can process your application by email
[20:44] <pitti> the hardy ones on https://edge.launchpad.net/~till-kamppeter/+packages seem like a good start
[20:45] <mdz> tkamppeter: you don't need to do it right now; we can take this offline
[20:46] <mdz> tkamppeter: are you there?
[20:47] <tkamppeter> Yes, I am here, mail sent.
[20:47] <mdz> tkamppeter: OK, we will move on with the meeting and then review the package list
[20:48] <tkamppeter> OK.
[20:48] <mdz> tkamppeter: thanks for talking with us
[20:48] <mdz> jdstrand: still here?
[20:48] <jdstrand> mdz: yep
[20:48] <mdz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu core developer application from Jamie Strandboge
[20:48] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001101.html
[20:49] <mdz> kees: are you here?  you've presumably sponsored more of Jamie's packages than anyone
[20:50] <kees> hi!
[20:50] <kees> I'm a huge super-supporter of jamie's work
[20:50] <Seeker`> mdz: You need to do #startmeeting
[20:51] <mdz> soren,zul: are you here?
[20:51] <soren> I am indeed.
[20:51] <kees> he's been doing extensive uploads to -security for a while now, and I have no reservations at all about his abilities.  any time an update is assigned to him, I know it's getting done very well.
[20:51] <mdz> Seeker`: I figured an incomplete log would be confusing, and that I should just publish my own copy
[20:51] <Seeker`> fair enough :)
[20:52] <soren> I can vouch 100% for Jamie. I have no reservations at all granting him core-dev privileges.
[20:52] <zul> mdz: I am I have uploaded a couple of Jamie's packages and I have quite happy about his work. I support him 100%
[20:52] <mdz> soren: what sort of work of his have you reviewed (presumably non-security-related)?
[20:52] <soren> He's careful and has a keen sense of detail, and most certainly has the techincal skill required.
[20:53] <mdz> jdstrand: I'm pretty familiar with your extensive work on security updates, but am curious about what you've done with more general packaging, since there's a different set of issues there
[20:53] <soren> mdz: Hm... All sorts of things really. I can't remember sponsoring a whole lot of uploads for him, but we routinely discuss packaging issues and other techincal stuff.
[20:54] <kees> I've sponsored uploads of ufw.  while it's not really part of larger existing subsystems yet, it's packaging, I think, is quite good.
[20:54] <Keybuk> "quite good" ? :-)
[20:54] <jdstrand> mdz: wrt Ubuntu, I work on ufw, auth-client-config and migrating apparmor profiles to packages. Some of the issues involved with apparmor can be seen in the wiki docoument: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApparmorProfileMigration
[20:55] <Keybuk> as mdz so wryly observed in Prague, that's British for "OMFG! STAY AWAY!" :p
[20:55] <kees> Keybuk: ah, oops.  I'm en_US
[20:55] <kees> I mean it at face value.  :)
[20:56] <kees> it's good, but not complex, packaging, is perhaps what I mean.
[20:56] <jdstrand> mdz: I am a big believer in Debian Policy, and while I don't have it memorized, I consult it frequently when packaging
[20:56] <mdz> jdstrand: you created that document, right?  very nice
[20:56] <soren> For one thing, he has demonstrated knowledge of many of the not-quite-obvious details of Debian packaging, but more importantly he's never been afraid to ask, and seems to never have to ask the same question twice.
[20:56] <jdstrand> and if I have a question or idea, I am not hesitant to ask
[20:56] <jdstrand> mdz: I did-- thank you :)
[20:56] <pitti> I reviewed auth-client-config back then for MIR, and didn't find packaging issues
[20:56] <mdz> soren: do you have any examples of not-quite-obvious details in mind?
[20:57] <mathiaz> I'd like to add that I've worked with jdstrand on Apparmor profile upgrades for hardy - that involved some in-depth discussion about postinst upgrades. This works highlitghts the strength of jdstrand general packaging skill IMO.
[20:57] <mdz> pitti: thanks for your feedback.  what sort of package features were used in it?
[20:58] <pitti> mdz: nothing really exciting; standard debhelper and control; pretty much the package you apt-get source, look at, and understand instantly :)
[20:58] <soren> mdz: I remember discussing maintainer scripts with Jamie on a few occasions, and have been positively surprised at his understanding of them. That seems to be a common stumbling point for lots of people.
[20:58] <pitti> (which is, well, good?)
[20:58] <mdz> it's basically debconfiscations + supporting bits, right?
[20:58] <pitti> auth-client-config uses nothing like that (maintscripts, debconf, etc.)
[20:59] <pitti> great ++ for running tests during build, and having tests at all
[20:59] <mdz> pitti: odd, it depends on debconf
[20:59] <zul> I think it also worth mentioning that jdstrand does alot of work on ubuntu-qa regression testing
[21:00] <pitti> ah, heh
[21:00] <mdz> Keybuk: any questions for jdstrand?
[21:01] <Keybuk> mdz: none, everything's covered
[21:01] <mdz> ok, that's plenty of feedback for me.  calling for votes then
[21:01] <Keybuk> +1
[21:01] <mdz> +1, loads of positive sponsor feedback and a strong track record of good quality work
[21:02] <mdz> jdstrand: congratulations and welcome
[21:02] <jdstrand> \o/
[21:02] <soren> \o/
[21:02] <kees> \o/ congratz jdstrand !
[21:02] <mdz> one less thing for kees to do, I hope ;-)
[21:02] <jdstrand> mdz, Keybuk: thank you :)
[21:02] <zul> yay!
[21:02] <mdz> any other business for the meeting?  we haven't had one in a while, and I'm a bit behind on email
[21:02] <jdstrand> kees, soren, mathiaz, zul: thanks for your support and great feedback all along :)
[21:03] <mdz> so if there are any pressing issues which I've overlooked, please raise them now
[21:03] <jdstrand> pitti: oh and that goes for you too! :)
[21:03] <mathiaz> jdstrand: congratzzzz ! you deserve it :)
[21:03] <Keybuk> mdz: meeting time!
[21:03] <soren> jdstrand: You're welcome. Just keep doing what you're doing :)
[21:03] <pitti> jdstrand: thanks to your good work! welcome to core-dev
[21:03] <mdz> Keybuk: indeed
[21:03] <mdz> Keybuk: do you have a proposal in mind?
[21:04] <Keybuk> mdz: I propose 1400 UTC
[21:04] <Keybuk> on tuesday
[21:05] <mdz> difficult for the UTC-7 crowd
[21:05] <Keybuk> truer
[21:05] <mdz> but I'm a fan of handling more things by email anyway
[21:05] <mdz> e.g. pitti's micro version request recently
[21:05] <Keybuk> but both of our calendars have the "Californian Morning" pretty solid :p
[21:06] <Keybuk> and I don't think it would be bad to actually make the meeting time more flexible
[21:06] <Keybuk> e.g. one week we could opt to hold it later, or earlier
[21:06] <mdz> kees: you're representing the west side...do you think it would be seen as unfortunate if the meeting moved earlier?
[21:06] <kees> this meeting?
[21:06] <mdz> kees: yes, the bi-weekly TB meeting
[21:06] <mathiaz> mdz: FYI, the ubuntu server team considers moving its meeting to tuesday 15:00 UTC
[21:07] <mdz> not something which anyone from your time zone is required to attend, but something we want to keep open to participation
[21:07] <kees> that'd be 7am
[21:07] <kees> I don't think that's unreasonable.
[21:07] <slangasek> s/Californian/Oregon/, yo ;P
[21:07] <kees> props++
[21:07] <mdz> and as Keybuk says, if someone wants to ensure that they can be here to discuss something with us, we can always adjust the time for a particular meeting
[21:08] <kees> yeah, it's not like it's 3am or anything.  7am is reasonable if some needs to discuss something live
[21:08] <mdz> if there are no objections, I'm fine with changing it, and if anyone shouts, we can discuss it further by email
[21:08] <mdz> forgiveness vs. permission and all that
[21:08] <mdz> ok, 1400 UTC it is
[21:08] <mdz> I'll notify ubuntu-devel-announce, ubuntu-news-team, etc.
[21:09] <mdz> ok, thanks everyone for participating
[21:09] <mdz> adjourned
[21:10] <lukehasnoname> Canonical should have an America regional office in Houston
[21:11] <Keybuk> lukehasnoname: it's in Lexington
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> KENTUCKY?
[21:11] <nixternal> Massachusetts
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> the state has a total population of 'hick'
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> oh
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> haha
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> couldn't stray too far from the pond, I guess
[21:11] <lukehasnoname> :)
[22:03] <JanC> @schedule Brussels
[22:11] <lukehasnoname> hm
[22:14] <ompaul> Seveas, who should be running this one?
[22:14] <Seveas> ompaul, hm?
[22:15] <Seveas> (just arrived home)
[22:15] <ompaul> ahh cc meeting should be in progress afik but ain't
[22:15] <JanC> according to the Fridge calendar & ubottu there is a meeting going on for 15 minutes now  ツ
[22:16] <Burgundavia> yes, it is just about to start
[22:16] <mdke> evening, sorry I'm late
[22:16] <Burgundavia> MikeB said his meeting is running later than he expected
[22:16] <Burgundavia> so we need elmo, sabdfl and dholbach
[22:22] <mdke> Burgundavia: difficult for us to have a meeting with just us two. How late is MikeB?
[22:23] <Burgundavia> he pinged me on gmail chat about 20 minutes and said it would be later than even his email said
[22:23] <Burgundavia> you were almost alone. The weather prevented me from flying today
[22:23] <mdke> i had a pretty late one at work, just arrived
[22:24] <mdke> do you know if the local team item was discussed at the last meeting? I believe it has been on the agenda at least since then
[22:25] <ompaul> mdke, they are up and running and handling memberships
[22:26] <mdke> ompaul: that's not the item I mean... i mean the agenda item
[22:26] <mdke> "LoCo teams as legal entities?"
[22:29] <sbc> mdke: That was discussed last time.
[22:30] <mdke> sbc: thanks, I'll have to check the logs then
[22:30] <Seveas> me too
[22:31] <sbc> mdke: We (the danish team) hope to show up at a comming meeting with a proposal for the CC, but we are not ready yet.
[22:33] <mdke> sbc: ok
[22:33] <sbc> hopefully for next meeting.
[22:33] <mdke> sbc: I'll take the agenda item off for now then
[22:37] <sbc> mdke: Feel free to do so. For the record, who is supposed to clear the agenda after a meeting?
[22:38] <mdke> sbc: we don't have a fixed rule
[22:38] <mdke> Burgundavia: I suggest we postpone the meeting. I don't have much time left now
[22:38] <sbc> ok - so I shouldn't feel bad? There is no tradition that it is the person who puts a item up there who is supposed to remove it again?
[22:39] <mdke> sbc: no, no problem
[22:39] <sbc> ok :)
[22:40] <Burgundavia> yep
[22:40] <mdke> ok. MEETING POSTPONED. Sorry to anyone who turned up hoping for a discussion :(
[22:40] <mdke> we'll rearrange the meeting as soon as possible