=== Moot2 is now known as MootBot === asac_ is now known as asac === RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAx [04:38] Seveas: <# [04:38] Seveas: <3 [04:38] (@ kmos) === aRyn_ is now known as aRyn === Mamarok_ is now known as Mamarok === hassanibraheem_ is now known as hassanibraheem === mdz_ is now known as mdz === ogra_ is now known as ogra === ember_ is now known as ember === persia_ is now known as persia [18:33] @schedule Amman [18:33] Syntux: Schedule for Asia/Amman: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 04 Jun 00:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00: Server Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Kubuntu Team [19:13] @schedule cdt [19:13] lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: cdt - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:13] @schedule cst [19:13] lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: cst - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:13] @schedule Houston [19:13] lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: Houston - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:13] @schedule CST [19:14] lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: CST - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:14] @schedule Chicago [19:14] slangasek: Schedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 03 Jun 16:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 01:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 11:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 16:00: Server Team | 04 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu Team [19:14] there ;) [19:14] ;_; [19:15] that was my next try [19:15] now, where are the GNOME people when I need to told-you-so them about Americans not commonly referring to their timezones by city name... [19:19] @schedule GMT-6 [19:19] lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: GMT-6 - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:19] hahaha [19:20] @schedule Mars [19:21] Syntux: Error: Unknown timezone: Mars - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html [19:26] How are things in Jordan [19:30] lukehasnoname, dandy [19:31] lukehasnoname, ever been there? [19:31] not at all [19:32] I've never been more than 1200 miles from home [19:32] which means I've never been out of Texas :) [19:32] heh [19:32] haha, no I've been to tennessee and Colorado and everywhere between and south, if you know the U.S. [19:33] lukehasnoname, yeah, aware of states names, my brother been there for long time. [19:34] syntux: Is Jordan peaceful compared to the rest of the region? [19:35] lukehasnoname, depends how you look at the region, anyway I guess we should take this into PM or #Ubuntu-offtopic [19:47] @schedule [19:47] Seeker`: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 03 Jun 21:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00: Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00: Kubuntu Team === gnomefre1k is now known as gnomefreak [20:00] good evening [20:00] hi [20:00] evening [20:01] #startmeeting [20:01] MootBot: poke [20:01] hi [20:01] mdz: wasn't MootBot one of Dennis's? [20:01] hi [20:01] Keybuk: I haven't tried to use it in a while, but was sure it was rescued [20:01] hi [20:02] it doesn't seem to be responding. oh, well. [20:02] hello [20:02] [TOPIC] core developer application from Till Kamppeter [20:03] [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001100.html [20:04] I really only have one question for tkamppeter [20:04] there looks to have been some controversy in the thread leading up to this application being submitted [20:04] and it's entirely unrelated to his core-dev application [20:05] I hope it isn't "why doesn't my printer work?" [20:06] <\sh> evening [20:06] mdz: yes, it pretty much is ;) [20:06] Keybuk, are we still waiting for someone? [20:06] <\sh> Keybuk, don't buy dell..buy real hardware ,-) [20:06] Till is the prime example for a "specialist" developer; I hardly look at the debdiffs of system-config-printer or foomatic etc. any more, but I would carefully check a gnome-panel or udev upload from him [20:06] more "hawlp! my printer doesn't work! what can I do to help you fix it?" :) [20:06] tkamppeter: can you tell us about the concerns which were raised on the list with regard to the Brother driver packages? [20:07] tkamppeter: no, not waiting, we're just a bit slow tonight [20:07] Keybuk and I represent a quorum [20:08] It was that I have uploaded the packages with some quirks in them, like a world-writable directory. I have hurried somewhat to get them in before FF and assuming that there are still 6 weeks in which the very motivated contributors could polish them. [20:09] (please note that this was merely uploaded to NEW, and rejected there; they never actually landed in the archive) [20:09] pitti: tkamppeter mentioned that you had reviewed these packages as well, and approved of their upload. any comment? [20:09] tkamppeter: had you taken any steps to motivate the contributors? [20:09] or at least alert them to the problems? [20:09] it was partly my fault [20:09] in an effort to process the 23948239432 NEW packages before FF more efficiently, I asked people to just upload, and I'd review them directly in NEW [20:10] Keybuk, I have forwarded everything which pitti told me about which was wrong to them and I got improved packages a day later or so. [20:10] instead of getting them reviewed somewhere else by MOTU first [20:10] mdz: i. e. I said "please upload to NEW, I'll review them", instead of "I review them from , then we fix it, then upload" (the standard procedure) [20:10] tkamppeter: were you aware of any of those problems before pitti reviewed the package? [20:11] some of them seemed like basic packaging errors [20:12] The upstream quality of these packages was very bad. They had to do a lot of hacking to get them into a distro-installable form. I have checked the structure and whether they install smoothly on my box and whether they build under pbuilder, but I have really overlooked that there was a world-writable dir in them. [20:12] tkamppeter: doesn't lintian check that? [20:13] non-standard-dir-perm I think [20:14] Probably I have not tried it to drive to complete lintian-cleaniness but looked only on whether it installs and runs. [20:14] tkamppeter: did you run lintian on the package? [20:15] I really must look into the thread again about what exactly I have done and what I have asked the contributor to fix in which stage. [20:17] sorry bout the lack of mootbot [20:17] there have been big hosting porblems, and it doesn't seem to be working properly on its current host [20:18] Seeker`: sorry to hear it; please email me if there is something I can do to help [20:18] tkamppeter: I have a scenario for you. [20:18] It's after Intrepid Beta release, and you're getting a lot of bug reports about printers not working. One of the bug reports has a patch to HAL that people are enthusiastically reporting fixes it for them, and this is getting wide publicity on forums and blogs. [20:18] What's your next step? [20:18] <\sh> tkamppeter, any reasoning to not follow the motu rules for contributed packages from non-motus? I'm curious why you didn't send them to revu/motu with their packages, despite the fact, that motus could upload NEW packages without being reviewed when they were build from themselves [20:19] mdz: sadly, most people wont touch eggdrop. I'll try and get it fixed this evening [20:19] that has been discussed on the ML already: FF churn [20:19] pitti: the feedback of yours linked from the council's recommendation seems to pertain specifically to the comments on the brother package. do you have more general comments as a sponsor other than what you already said about specialization? [20:19] \sh, pitti has told me to directly upload into NEW, due to the FF. If no one has invited me to do so I had taken the standard procedure- [20:21] mdz: My feeling is that tkamppeter understands the freeze rules now, and I trust him enough to upload the printer specific packages (like system-config-printer, cups, foomatic, etc.); he's still not a 100% proficient packager, but a great printing package maintainer and upstream developer [20:21] of course I understand that right now we still don't have this DM-like concept in Ubuntu [20:22] Keybuk, I would try out the package by myself and run it to see whether it improves the situation and does not break anything (as longs as feasable on my box). I would also check through the changes to see whether there is something broken, or whether an extra library (= new dependency) is needed ... [20:22] tkamppeter: what's your answer to Keybuk's scenario? [20:23] tkamppeter: ok, so your testing does indeed show that printing works again with the patch, and doesn't introduce any new dependencies [20:23] what's next? [20:23] I would also try a build with pbuilder if the patch is non-trivial, to catch an FTBFS due to a new dep. [20:23] tkamppeter: just assume that the package builds, and works now [20:24] If the patch is not very small I would try a lintian to see whether nothing in the package structure broke (or thingslike world-writale dir) [20:24] tkamppeter: builds fine, lintian shows no new problems [20:25] If there is enough time and if other users are participating in the bug discussion I would upload the files onto my server (or PPA) and invite the others to test. [20:25] tkamppeter: you get a number of thanks from the reporters, and they say it fixes it [20:27] (All assumiung that I do not have the printer in question) Then I would have enough confidence to upload it: Package actually improves situation for owners of the hardware in question, package is lintian-OK, package does not FTBFS, then I would sign and upload it. [20:28] Smaller issued are then hopefully found by the wide Intrepid testing community. [20:28] tkamppeter: how much do you actually know about the guts of hal? [20:29] Only more basic stuff, I have done some simple changes in hal-cups-utils, including making it actually working on Ubuntu. I have read through HAL docs for that. [20:31] there are many patches in Launchpad which appear to fix the problem [20:31] but are in fact, somewhat wrong [20:31] they may break something else you weren't testing [20:31] and create a huge security hole, or are fundamentally wrong [20:31] or they may be deliberate decisions by upstream or by the person in Ubuntu who cares a lot about that [20:32] especially if you don't know much about the package in question, it's often an idea to talk to other people first [20:32] before applying a patch to HAL, even I generally check with pitti [20:32] if he's not around, others like cjwatson, slangasek or myself may be able to spot the problem you're about to introduce [20:33] and patches should generally be sent to upstream; after FF they should even be discussed with upstream *before* applying them (unless it's really obvious, like fixing a NULL deref, or so) [20:34] I am also generally trying to get patches upstream, I akso dislike that the distros deviate too much from upstream as this creates a maintenance nightmare and also a lot of mail about non-upstream problems in upstream forums. [20:34] tkamppeter: if a mechanism were available for you to gain upload privileges for specific packages, rather than all of main (as ubuntu-core-dev currently implies), would you have opted for that rather than ubuntu-core-dev? [20:35] tkamppeter: or are you interested in participating more generally in development? [20:35] For the Common Printing Dialog for example I have informed the relevant upstreams and let my GSoC student make work together with them- [20:35] #startmeeting [20:35] Meeting started at 14:37. The chair is Seeker`. [20:35] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [20:35] #endmeeting [20:35] Meeting finished at 14:37. [20:36] Seeker`: thanks [20:36] the logs wont be available immediately, but hopefully in the next 24 hours or so [20:37] mdz, this mechanism would be enough for me. My plans are simply to continue in the printing area. And on non-printing packages like HAL or so, I would only upload small trivial patches, never a big thing, and I usually ask here on IRC if I am in doubt with a method or idea to get something solved. [20:38] I am told that Launchpad will provide such a mechanism in the foreseeable future [20:39] and so I would like to propose the option of applying for core-dev with a commitment to limit uploads to a named set of packages [20:39] to be transitioned to that new access control mechanism when it becomes available [20:39] hola [20:39] Keybuk: would you be willing to consider that? [20:39] iirc we did something similar for rtg [20:40] mdz, so I agree with that. Can we simply say that the TB agrees on that with me and activate this state as soon as the Launchpad is ready? [20:41] mdz: as in, grant core-dev privileges until such time as we can make better lists? [20:41] Keybuk: privileges with a social limitation [20:41] that was my feeling of the right course [20:41] until that social limitation can become a technical one [20:42] tkamppeter: would you be happy limiting yourself to printing packages, and where there are patches to things like HAL, still working with others like pitti to have them upload them? [20:42] mdz, I will upload only printing stuff directly, for other things I will ask others whether it is OK before uploading. [20:43] tkamppeter: we will need a list of packages [20:43] tkamppeter: could you prepare such a list and email it to technical-board? then we can process your application by email [20:44] the hardy ones on https://edge.launchpad.net/~till-kamppeter/+packages seem like a good start [20:45] tkamppeter: you don't need to do it right now; we can take this offline [20:46] tkamppeter: are you there? [20:47] Yes, I am here, mail sent. [20:47] tkamppeter: OK, we will move on with the meeting and then review the package list [20:48] OK. [20:48] tkamppeter: thanks for talking with us [20:48] jdstrand: still here? [20:48] mdz: yep [20:48] [TOPIC] Ubuntu core developer application from Jamie Strandboge [20:48] [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001101.html [20:49] kees: are you here? you've presumably sponsored more of Jamie's packages than anyone [20:50] hi! [20:50] I'm a huge super-supporter of jamie's work [20:50] mdz: You need to do #startmeeting [20:51] soren,zul: are you here? [20:51] I am indeed. [20:51] he's been doing extensive uploads to -security for a while now, and I have no reservations at all about his abilities. any time an update is assigned to him, I know it's getting done very well. [20:51] Seeker`: I figured an incomplete log would be confusing, and that I should just publish my own copy [20:51] fair enough :) [20:52] I can vouch 100% for Jamie. I have no reservations at all granting him core-dev privileges. [20:52] mdz: I am I have uploaded a couple of Jamie's packages and I have quite happy about his work. I support him 100% [20:52] soren: what sort of work of his have you reviewed (presumably non-security-related)? [20:52] He's careful and has a keen sense of detail, and most certainly has the techincal skill required. [20:53] jdstrand: I'm pretty familiar with your extensive work on security updates, but am curious about what you've done with more general packaging, since there's a different set of issues there [20:53] mdz: Hm... All sorts of things really. I can't remember sponsoring a whole lot of uploads for him, but we routinely discuss packaging issues and other techincal stuff. [20:54] I've sponsored uploads of ufw. while it's not really part of larger existing subsystems yet, it's packaging, I think, is quite good. [20:54] "quite good" ? :-) [20:54] mdz: wrt Ubuntu, I work on ufw, auth-client-config and migrating apparmor profiles to packages. Some of the issues involved with apparmor can be seen in the wiki docoument: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApparmorProfileMigration [20:55] as mdz so wryly observed in Prague, that's British for "OMFG! STAY AWAY!" :p [20:55] Keybuk: ah, oops. I'm en_US [20:55] I mean it at face value. :) [20:56] it's good, but not complex, packaging, is perhaps what I mean. [20:56] mdz: I am a big believer in Debian Policy, and while I don't have it memorized, I consult it frequently when packaging [20:56] jdstrand: you created that document, right? very nice [20:56] For one thing, he has demonstrated knowledge of many of the not-quite-obvious details of Debian packaging, but more importantly he's never been afraid to ask, and seems to never have to ask the same question twice. [20:56] and if I have a question or idea, I am not hesitant to ask [20:56] mdz: I did-- thank you :) [20:56] I reviewed auth-client-config back then for MIR, and didn't find packaging issues [20:56] soren: do you have any examples of not-quite-obvious details in mind? [20:57] I'd like to add that I've worked with jdstrand on Apparmor profile upgrades for hardy - that involved some in-depth discussion about postinst upgrades. This works highlitghts the strength of jdstrand general packaging skill IMO. [20:57] pitti: thanks for your feedback. what sort of package features were used in it? [20:58] mdz: nothing really exciting; standard debhelper and control; pretty much the package you apt-get source, look at, and understand instantly :) [20:58] mdz: I remember discussing maintainer scripts with Jamie on a few occasions, and have been positively surprised at his understanding of them. That seems to be a common stumbling point for lots of people. [20:58] (which is, well, good?) [20:58] it's basically debconfiscations + supporting bits, right? [20:58] auth-client-config uses nothing like that (maintscripts, debconf, etc.) [20:59] great ++ for running tests during build, and having tests at all [20:59] pitti: odd, it depends on debconf [20:59] I think it also worth mentioning that jdstrand does alot of work on ubuntu-qa regression testing [21:00] ah, heh [21:00] Keybuk: any questions for jdstrand? [21:01] mdz: none, everything's covered [21:01] ok, that's plenty of feedback for me. calling for votes then [21:01] +1 [21:01] +1, loads of positive sponsor feedback and a strong track record of good quality work [21:02] jdstrand: congratulations and welcome [21:02] \o/ [21:02] \o/ [21:02] \o/ congratz jdstrand ! [21:02] one less thing for kees to do, I hope ;-) [21:02] mdz, Keybuk: thank you :) [21:02] yay! [21:02] any other business for the meeting? we haven't had one in a while, and I'm a bit behind on email [21:02] kees, soren, mathiaz, zul: thanks for your support and great feedback all along :) [21:03] so if there are any pressing issues which I've overlooked, please raise them now [21:03] pitti: oh and that goes for you too! :) [21:03] jdstrand: congratzzzz ! you deserve it :) [21:03] mdz: meeting time! [21:03] jdstrand: You're welcome. Just keep doing what you're doing :) [21:03] jdstrand: thanks to your good work! welcome to core-dev [21:03] Keybuk: indeed [21:03] Keybuk: do you have a proposal in mind? [21:04] mdz: I propose 1400 UTC [21:04] on tuesday [21:05] difficult for the UTC-7 crowd [21:05] truer [21:05] but I'm a fan of handling more things by email anyway [21:05] e.g. pitti's micro version request recently [21:05] but both of our calendars have the "Californian Morning" pretty solid :p [21:06] and I don't think it would be bad to actually make the meeting time more flexible [21:06] e.g. one week we could opt to hold it later, or earlier [21:06] kees: you're representing the west side...do you think it would be seen as unfortunate if the meeting moved earlier? [21:06] this meeting? [21:06] kees: yes, the bi-weekly TB meeting [21:06] mdz: FYI, the ubuntu server team considers moving its meeting to tuesday 15:00 UTC [21:07] not something which anyone from your time zone is required to attend, but something we want to keep open to participation [21:07] that'd be 7am [21:07] I don't think that's unreasonable. [21:07] s/Californian/Oregon/, yo ;P [21:07] props++ [21:07] and as Keybuk says, if someone wants to ensure that they can be here to discuss something with us, we can always adjust the time for a particular meeting [21:08] yeah, it's not like it's 3am or anything. 7am is reasonable if some needs to discuss something live [21:08] if there are no objections, I'm fine with changing it, and if anyone shouts, we can discuss it further by email [21:08] forgiveness vs. permission and all that [21:08] ok, 1400 UTC it is [21:08] I'll notify ubuntu-devel-announce, ubuntu-news-team, etc. [21:09] ok, thanks everyone for participating [21:09] adjourned [21:10] Canonical should have an America regional office in Houston [21:11] lukehasnoname: it's in Lexington [21:11] KENTUCKY? [21:11] Massachusetts [21:11] the state has a total population of 'hick' [21:11] oh [21:11] haha [21:11] couldn't stray too far from the pond, I guess [21:11] :) === ubuntu-l1ptop is now known as ubuntu-laptop === gnomefre1k is now known as gnomefreak === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team === ubuntu-laptop is now known as gnomefreak [22:03] @schedule Brussels [22:03] JanC: Schedule for Europe/Brussels: Current meeting: Community Council | 04 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 18:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 23:00: Server Team | 05 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu Team === emma is now known as emma_ [22:11] hm [22:14] Seveas, who should be running this one? [22:14] ompaul, hm? [22:15] (just arrived home) [22:15] ahh cc meeting should be in progress afik but ain't [22:15] according to the Fridge calendar & ubottu there is a meeting going on for 15 minutes now ツ [22:16] yes, it is just about to start [22:16] evening, sorry I'm late [22:16] MikeB said his meeting is running later than he expected [22:16] so we need elmo, sabdfl and dholbach === emma_ is now known as emma [22:22] Burgundavia: difficult for us to have a meeting with just us two. How late is MikeB? [22:23] he pinged me on gmail chat about 20 minutes and said it would be later than even his email said [22:23] you were almost alone. The weather prevented me from flying today [22:23] i had a pretty late one at work, just arrived [22:24] do you know if the local team item was discussed at the last meeting? I believe it has been on the agenda at least since then [22:25] mdke, they are up and running and handling memberships [22:26] ompaul: that's not the item I mean... i mean the agenda item [22:26] "LoCo teams as legal entities?" === emma is now known as emmy === emmy is now known as emma_ [22:29] mdke: That was discussed last time. === emma_ is now known as emmy [22:30] sbc: thanks, I'll have to check the logs then [22:30] me too [22:31] mdke: We (the danish team) hope to show up at a comming meeting with a proposal for the CC, but we are not ready yet. === emmy is now known as emma_ [22:33] sbc: ok [22:33] hopefully for next meeting. [22:33] sbc: I'll take the agenda item off for now then [22:37] mdke: Feel free to do so. For the record, who is supposed to clear the agenda after a meeting? === emma_ is now known as emma [22:38] sbc: we don't have a fixed rule [22:38] Burgundavia: I suggest we postpone the meeting. I don't have much time left now [22:38] ok - so I shouldn't feel bad? There is no tradition that it is the person who puts a item up there who is supposed to remove it again? [22:39] sbc: no, no problem [22:39] ok :) [22:40] yep [22:40] ok. MEETING POSTPONED. Sorry to anyone who turned up hoping for a discussion :( [22:40] we'll rearrange the meeting as soon as possible