[01:04] <owh> Inbox full again this morning...
[02:32] <Flannel> Anyone know where one can get just the "Pass it on" logo?
[02:35] <owh> Dunno even what it looks like, does images.google have it?
[02:36] <Flannel> owh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu_CD_804.pdf  the logo next to the text on the bottom
[02:37] <owh> Nice logo, can you not extract it from the PDF?
[02:38] <owh> Flannel: Using something like pdfimages?
[02:41] <Flannel> owh: Well, there's an eps version of that, so I can grab it in vector from there, just hoped someone had the plain image
[02:41] <owh> Flannel: Sure, I understand. When you do have it as a separate vector, will you add it to the wiki :)
[04:33] <Flannel> You know, DIYMarketing is the wiki temporary home for Spread Ubuntu and diy.ubuntu.com.  We spent a lot of time at the meeting coming up with the ideas that are already semi-in place
[04:33] <Flannel> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/SpreadUbuntu%20Structure%20Proposals/Spreadubuntu-060628-jenda.png
[04:34] <Flannel> and some mockups: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/SpreadUbuntu%20Design%20Mockups/
[04:34] <Flannel> (this is all linked at the top of DIYMarketing, linked here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/websites/
[04:36] <Flannel> Looks like the original idea was to use bzr to manage all the content.  That seems... like a good idea.
[04:36] <Flannel> content being "stuff created to download and use"
[04:36] <Flannel> not the website itself
[04:41] <Flannel> +1 to seeing that come to fruition.  If thats what some people were talking about at the meeting, I apologise for berating it.  You simply hadn't explained it clearly enough, I suppose.
[04:55] <owh> +1
[05:13] <boredandblogging> Flannel: there used to be a diy.devubuntu site as well
[05:13] <Flannel> boredandblogging: Right, its defunct except for "Oh hai"
[05:13] <boredandblogging> Flannel: right
[05:14] <Flannel> boredandblogging: it is basically what DIyMarketing page is, right?
[05:14] <Flannel> or, would've been
[05:14] <boredandblogging> Flannel: I don't remember exactly...
[05:14]  * Flannel wonders about the wayback machine.
[05:14] <boredandblogging> but I believe it was supposed to be a place to get material
[05:14] <boredandblogging> and post material
[05:14] <Flannel> right, thats what the description sounds like
[05:15] <boredandblogging> i could be wrong, but I thought some of the code for the stuff is in LP
[05:18] <Flannel> Guess its time to finally learn bzr
[05:18] <Flannel> Hmm, and revert some deletions
[05:27] <owh> I woke up this morning as a member of a new team ubuntu-core-marketing. I cannot say that I agree with the process that caused that. Anyone else think it's premature to start such a team and inappropriate to add members like that?
[05:30]  * owh suspects that pep is in the same boat.
[05:31] <boredandblogging> this topic has been thrashed out in on the list...
[05:31] <boredandblogging> some people believe in structure, some don't
[05:31] <owh> Sure, but I was added to the team without my consent.
[05:31] <boredandblogging> ahhh
[05:32] <boredandblogging> well, you can remove yourself
[05:32] <owh> And show up as a former member of the team, niice.
[05:33] <boredandblogging> its a fine line, like cody said, sometimes just to move things forward, someone has to take initiative...
[05:33] <boredandblogging> but...
[05:34] <owh> To me it speaks to a great disrespect of fellow team members. I am entitled to my opinion and entitled to act upon it. I'm not a serf that can be dragooned into service.
[05:34] <boredandblogging> owh: I doubt it was meant that way
[05:34] <owh> boredandblogging: But therein lies the problem.
[05:35] <boredandblogging> its probably that folks don't understand the tools and ways to use them
[05:35] <boredandblogging> but its just a learning curve
[05:35] <boredandblogging> people make mistakes
[05:35] <owh> If there had been discussion, I could decide for myself what and if I wished to be part of it, rather than have to think about the "message" I'm leaving by removing myself from that team.
[05:36] <boredandblogging> i wouldn't worry about it
[05:37] <owh> You don't think it goes to the heart of the issue?
[05:37] <owh> Do unto others as you would like done onto you?
[05:37] <boredandblogging> owh: I agree, I just wouldn't worry about what kind of signal it sends by leaving
[05:38] <boredandblogging> LP is a tool, people come and go
[05:39] <owh> I cannot help but feel that this is a grab for power - I may well be mistaken, rather than an attempt to "move forward". We spent 3 hours having a serious discussion about the future of the team and then this kind of rubbish happens.
[05:40] <owh> I'm all for initiative, but this goes waaaay beyond that in my opinion.
[05:44] <boredandblogging> owh: have there been any concrete plans of action yet?
[05:44] <owh> Nope. And no structure proposals to the list like we agreed to in the meeting.
[05:45] <Flannel> boredandblogging: The official meeting minutes were only posted yesterday though.
[05:45] <boredandblogging> right, I saw that
[05:50] <boredandblogging> it might help just to get started on some related action items like contactng the Art Team and seeing how they could get involved
[05:50] <owh> Later all, gotta run.
[08:32] <pep> mhhh Onno not here...
[11:50] <jenda> Flannel: perhaps if you poked Dan Buch (meatballhat), he might know where the rest of "oh hai" has gone - he made that change and there was already a pretty decent mockup there.
[11:51] <jenda> Which meeting was the topic discussed at? I might want to read the backlog (if there is one)
[14:20] <Mike_Feravolo> hello
[14:46] <cody-somerville> moo
[17:52] <pwnguin> does canonical have some sort of exclusive right to ubuntu logo tshirts?
[17:56] <pep> no, not in general..
[17:56] <pwnguin> then why the hell are they charging me 45 bucks for a tshirt?
[17:57] <pep> pwnguin: it has rights on the tshirts canonical developed
[17:57] <pep> you can download a logo and put it on a tshirt
[17:57] <pwnguin> "it"
[17:57] <pep> it=canonical
[17:57] <pep> sorry
[17:58] <pwnguin> ive considered that
[17:58] <pep> pwnguin: they are free to charge whatever they want for them... jsut as you are free to create your own ubuntu-tshirts :)
[17:58] <pwnguin> but in a more general sense, you'd think there'd be more
[17:59] <pwnguin> american providers, that is
[17:59] <pep> yes, I suppose other people sell ubuntu tshirts
[17:59] <pep> try ebay...
[18:01] <pwnguin> i recall there being some sort of permission needed to use the logo
[18:03] <pep> haha no... Not a free logo, not that I know, anyway...
[18:04] <pwnguin> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[18:11] <pep> I will not read all this now, but imo, making a t-shirt with "ubuntu" + logo on it should not be a problem... it would surprise me if it was, because it is not in canonical's interest... we made t-shirts for the belgium team for example... I was not directly involved in this though, so I can't give you ruther details on that
[18:11] <pep> but i can ask some people if you're not in a hurry...
[18:12] <pep> further*
[18:12] <pwnguin> im not, just thinking out loud mostly
[18:12] <pep> ok
[18:13] <pwnguin> you'd think canonical would at least realize the price is ridiculus for the US
[18:13] <pep> It is prety high...
[18:13] <pep> +t
[18:16] <pep> some of the profit of these canonical t-shirts go to ubuntu as far as I remember though..
[18:16] <pwnguin> im fine with canonical selling 
[18:16] <pwnguin> i mean, he donated 10mil to ubuntu
[18:16] <pep> but a lot of people have been making ubuntu t-shirts... don't hesitate ;)
[18:18] <pwnguin> im looking locally for prices
[18:18] <pep> I see
[18:18] <pwnguin> with today's falling dollar, that means cheaper exports! ;)
[18:19] <pwnguin> last time i looked it was gonna be like 25 bucks for a one off
[18:19] <pep> hehe :)
[18:20] <pwnguin> and that was a high quality shir
[18:20] <pwnguin> t
[18:21] <pep> if you're from the usa, you might want to ask in #ubuntu-us
[18:21] <pep> they will hopefully direct you your local ubuntu team...
[18:21] <pwnguin> yea
[18:21] <pwnguin> us locos are almost universally stupid
[18:22] <pep> why that?
[18:22] <pwnguin> well, there's already a high prevailance of LUGs in the US
[18:22] <pwnguin> and we dont need ubuntu translated
[18:22] <pep> yes
[18:23] <pep> I see your point..
[18:23] <pep> but I don't think that having local ubuntu comunities is bad...
[18:24] <pwnguin> the other thing to remember is that the US is huge
[18:24] <pwnguin> not quite the size of blgium ;)
[18:24] <pep> hehe, sure :)
[18:24] <pep> we only have one loco
[18:24] <pep> but we have three official languages
[18:24] <pep> which can be quite tricky sometimes believe me ;)
[18:25] <pwnguin> but the area of people it draws is smaller
[18:25] <pwnguin> denser
[18:26] <pwnguin> the guy who started the ubuntu-kansas loco lives like two hours away from everybody
[18:26] <pwnguin> by excessive american driving standards
[18:26]  * MenZa pokes pep's government.
[18:27] <pep> which government?
[18:27] <pep> :p
[18:29] <MenZa> XD
[18:43] <boredandblogging> pwnguin: its been discussed many times, LoCos aren't meant to replace LUGs
[18:44] <boredandblogging> there are plenty of people who come out to LoCo events, but have no interest in LUGs
[18:46] <boredandblogging> and depends on your LUG, if the LUG is lazy and doesn't do much, the enthusiasm of a LoCo can be really good
[18:55] <pwnguin> boredandblogging: the problem is, for a place like kansas, you can't negotiate a meeting point acceptable to most
[18:56] <pwnguin> i think theres a reason #ubuntu-chicago is successful
[18:57] <pwnguin> while ubuntu-ks is gone nowhere fast: a good leader and a dense population
[18:57] <boredandblogging> very true
[18:57] <boredandblogging> but then plans should be made a couple months in advance
[18:57] <boredandblogging> so everyone can plan for it
[18:57] <pwnguin> i dont think it matters
[18:57] <pwnguin> im not driving to witchita. ever.
[18:57] <pwnguin> wichita, evne
[18:57] <boredandblogging> well, thats not really the LoCos problem then
[18:59] <pwnguin> i'd call a threat to existence a problem
[18:59] <boredandblogging> if there is no dense population, meetings need to be moved around and people will have to drive
[19:00] <pwnguin> there are dense populations, they're just not close by any stretch
[19:00] <pwnguin> theres kansas city, topeka, lawrence, manhattan and wichita
[19:01] <pwnguin> manhattan, lawrence, wichita(I think) and kansas city have functioning LUGs
[19:03] <boredandblogging> so if the LoCo moved around meetings between those cities, it would still be too far for people?
[19:04] <pwnguin> it depends on your definition of meeting
[19:04] <pwnguin> if all the kc people show up to kc meetings, and the wichita people to wichita, then they might show up
[19:05] <pwnguin> but dont expect anyone to take up a 4 hour drive in the name of ubuntu
[19:05] <boredandblogging> right, maybe make it a bigger event, like a couple presentations, mini-installfest, and then everyone goes out to eat and drink
[19:05] <pwnguin> the thing is
[19:05] <pwnguin> the lugs already do this
[19:06] <boredandblogging> most do, but you can give it more of an Ubuntu flair
[19:06] <pwnguin> and why bother with the hierarchial structure, when the leader will only show in one place?
[19:06] <boredandblogging> get some t-shirts made up
[19:06] <boredandblogging> thats a different problem
[19:07] <pwnguin> i guess i dont understand the difference between a loco and ubuntu users attending lugs
[19:07] <boredandblogging> LoCos are meant to promote Ubuntu
[19:08] <boredandblogging> the LUGs are really specific
[19:08] <boredandblogging> s/are/aren't
[19:08] <pwnguin> im not sure I care about that
[19:08] <pwnguin> being specific to ubuntu, i mean.
[19:09] <boredandblogging> kinda funny when we are in an ubuntu marketing channel :-)
[19:10] <pwnguin> i guess what im saying is, our lugs don't need official recognition as Loco Teams
[19:11] <pwnguin> for example, the kansas state lug hands out ubuntu CDs at meetings and recruiting events, and we have a display in the campus computer store
[19:11] <boredandblogging> the LUGs don't have to be LoCo Teams, it can be separate, but work with LoCos
[19:11] <boredandblogging> thats good
[19:11] <boredandblogging> arrgh, but work with LUGs
[19:12] <pwnguin> many of the guys admin gentoo or redhat on campus, and use ubuntu on laptops
[19:12] <pwnguin> what we dont do is state wide outreach
[19:13] <pwnguin> we host weekly lunch meetings and lan parties every six months, irc and a mailing list
[19:13] <boredandblogging> sounds like the LUG is doing a good job
[19:14] <pwnguin> we held an installfest once but the truth is, the only people who show up are the guys who have an ancient thinkpad where we'd need hours to set up pxe
[19:14] <pwnguin> no usb boot, no cd drive
[19:14] <pwnguin> no floppy
[19:14] <boredandblogging> right
[19:15] <boredandblogging> but once you set up a pxe, it will be much easier in the future to add new releases
[19:15] <boredandblogging> the up front cost is big
[19:15] <pwnguin> part of the problem of course is that the skill needed to set that up likes gentoo better
[19:16] <pwnguin> and hates users
[19:17] <boredandblogging> lol
[19:17] <pwnguin> the kc lug hosts a popular mailing list, an irc channel, holds two meetings a month and hands out cds (sometimes ubuntu) at trade shows
[19:19] <pwnguin> thats what a LoCo has to compete with
[19:22] <boredandblogging> not compete, help them do those things, do presentations at the meetings geared towards Ubuntu
[19:24] <pwnguin> I mean, next meeting I plan to show off the ume stuff
[19:24] <pwnguin> i haven't discussed it with any loco, I just find it interesting
[19:25] <pwnguin> aka "netbook"
[19:27] <boredandblogging> awesome!
[19:27] <pwnguin> before i left manhattan, i showed off some of the tablet features in ubuntu
[19:27] <pwnguin> (needs work)
[19:30] <pwnguin> i might also do a demo of colorfilter
[19:31] <boredandblogging> nice
[19:31] <pwnguin> unfortunately, nobody quite gets colorfilter
[19:32] <pwnguin> it serves two purposes:
[19:32] <pwnguin> a) color remapping for the colorblind
[19:32] <pwnguin> b) color filtering for normal sighted so you can see whether your presentation makes sense
[19:33] <pwnguin> be it app, slideshow, webpage, etc
[19:33] <pwnguin> anyways
[19:33] <pwnguin> food for thought: the usteams project is doing it wrong
[19:45] <Flannel> pwnguin: How so
[19:48] <pwnguin> Flannel: covering the 50 biggest cities might be a more feasible / productive goal than the 50 states
[19:49] <Flannel> pwnguin: Except (as has already been mentioned) LoCos aren't LUGs, they serve a different purpose
[19:50] <pwnguin> what is the purpose of a lug that is different?
[19:50] <Flannel> pwnguin: LUGs are for people to hang out, etc, etc.  That's not the LoCos primary purpose
[19:52] <Flannel> LoCos are designed for localized support, advocacy, and translation.  in the US, the translation bit goes away, so we're left with advocacy and local support
[19:52] <pwnguin> would it be appropriate to move this conversation to #ubuntu-us?
[19:53] <Flannel> pwnguin: Sure
[20:08] <jbotscharow> I was wondering if someone here could answer a couple of quick newbie questions
[20:10] <jbotscharow> when I log on to IRC I get a message like UWN #95 in progress
[20:10] <jbotscharow> What is UWN?
[20:28] <johnc4510> jbotscharow: it's the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, and the msg you see is the topic for this channel
[20:28] <jbotscharow> ok ty
[20:29] <jbotscharow> one more stupid noobie question LOL
[20:29] <johnc4510> latest issue here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue94
[20:29] <johnc4510> ok, i'll try
[20:30] <jbotscharow> a couple of messages on the mailing list used the word "troll" oe some variation of that
[20:30] <jbotscharow> I know what a troll is in mythologu
[20:30] <jbotscharow> what does it mean here?
[20:30] <pep> hi
[20:30] <pep> jbotscharow: you should look it up in wikipedia ;)
[20:30] <jbotscharow> not a compliment I assume
[20:30] <johnc4510> yep, a troll is someone who joins a channel with the intent to cause mischief
[20:31] <pep> a troll is more a subject than a person usually...
[20:31] <jbotscharow> ok, thanks
[20:32] <johnc4510> np
[20:32] <jbotscharow> hi to you pep
[20:33] <jbotscharow> sorry was not intentionally being rude
[20:33] <pep> about? :)
[20:33] <pep> not saying hii directly?
[20:33] <jbotscharow> yes
[20:33] <jbotscharow> I'm a slow typist
[20:33] <pep> it is not a problem I assure you! On IRC it is common not to directly reply
[20:34] <pep> generally the writer assumes people saw it
[20:34] <jbotscharow> this is all rather new to me so I appreciate the info
[20:35] <Flannel> jbotscharow: some sound advice for you: don't go to #ubuntu
[20:36] <Flannel> If you need support (usually done in #ubuntu), ask in #ubuntu-classroom
[20:36] <pep> about the troll... hence the expression"feeding the troll" or "trolling" as it was used on the list, which means continuing or bringing up again a discussion and/or subject that has the carachteristics of a troll... but you should look up the exact definition of a troll in wikipedia...
[20:38] <jbotscharow> thanks Flannel
[20:38] <jbotscharow> pep: I will take your advice as well ty
[20:39] <jbotscharow> given my newbieness, i think i'll stick to this room only for now
[20:47] <Mike_Feravolo> hello
[20:47] <jbotscharow> hey Mike, how's things>
[20:48] <Mike_Feravolo> kk
[20:49] <Mike_Feravolo> It looks like there has been interest in ubuntu marketing, due to the traffic on the list
[20:49] <jbotscharow> i think it will die down now
[20:49] <pep> I wouldn't consider the raise of traffic on the list to a particular raise in interest...
[20:49] <pep> s/to/as
[20:49] <Mike_Feravolo> I have to admitt that I skipped some of the messages for obvoius reasons
[20:50] <jbotscharow> that discussion has moved to a new list
[20:50] <Mike_Feravolo> which is
[20:51] <Mike_Feravolo> a lanuchpad list ?
[20:51] <jbotscharow> pep: pls translate s/to/as  newbieness
[20:51] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: All the proper marketing material is still on the marketing ist
[20:51] <Flannel> jbotscharow: pls is please
[20:52] <Flannel> oh, wait.  s/to/as/ means substitute "to" to "as"
[20:52] <pep> search for  to  and replace with  as
[20:52] <Flannel> Its from perl/sed
[20:52] <pep> yeah
[20:52] <pwnguin> i like how regular expressions are more universal than english =(
[20:53] <pep> sorry, I am very used to using this shortcut, it is not so good I admit :)
[20:53] <jbotscharow> ok
[20:53] <jbotscharow> it's not you, it's me
[20:53] <jbotscharow> I am not a programmer
[20:54] <pwnguin> well, regular expressions aren't exactly readable to programmers either
[20:54] <jbotscharow> so i will need help with translations
[20:55] <jbotscharow> I have a general idea of what regular expression are in logic - is that what you mean?
[20:55] <Mike_Feravolo> jbotsharow - are you new to Ubuntu ?
[20:55] <jbotscharow> yeag
[20:55] <jbotscharow> 2 months
[20:56] <pwnguin> a regular expression is a class of language. the programming languages perl and sed expands this to do manipulation on strings.
[20:56] <Mike_Feravolo> what were you using before, another Linux , Windows . Mac ?
[20:56] <jbotscharow> but been a marketer since I was 12 when i had a peper route
[20:56] <Mike_Feravolo> good someone who know how to sell
[20:57] <jbotscharow> used Windows for years last version XP media
[20:57] <Mike_Feravolo> something they don't teach in engineering school
[20:58] <pwnguin> does ubuntu need closers?
[20:58] <Mike_Feravolo> so you decided to give microsoft the boot
[20:58] <jbotscharow> yes, and i get very passionate about it, in case no one noticed
[20:58] <pep> jbotscharow: nobody critizised that :)
[20:59] <jbotscharow> some people i think did
[20:59] <pep> mhh no..
[20:59] <jbotscharow> but i'll live
[20:59] <pep> it is the way, the method, that is questionable
[21:00] <Mike_Feravolo> are people still snarling about some of the comments on the mail list ?
[21:00] <Mike_Feravolo> bfd
[21:00] <jbotscharow> pep: pls explain so i don't do it again
[21:01] <pep> I am just explaining why people reacted as they did, so that john understands why there was an uprise
[21:01] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't know I run a business, I like ubuntu, I have to sell, i would like to help sell ubuntu.
[21:02] <Mike_Feravolo> These are simple concepts and people need to be objective and try not to piss others off
[21:02] <Mike_Feravolo> forgive and forget and move on
[21:02] <pep> it is not at all, what you are doing that is argued about, it is that you came in without much looking around you, the way these kind of communities we are in work,..
[21:03] <pep> oh, I wont argue about past things
[21:03] <Mike_Feravolo> on the flip side everyone should cut a new guy a little slack
[21:04] <pep> sure, and there is no problem with new ideas and initiative :)
[21:04] <jbotscharow> if someone had just politely  explained what i was doing wrong i would have gladly accomoadated
[21:04] <pep> yes
[21:04] <pep> that was the error
[21:04] <pep> I understand jbotscharow
[21:04] <Mike_Feravolo> hey i am an engineer by trade and had to learn how to sell the hard way and with my own money
[21:05] <Mike_Feravolo> it might help the group to have some real sales people
[21:05] <pep> of course
[21:05] <pwnguin> how are you gonna sell Ubuntu?
[21:05] <jbotscharow> to be honest with all of you, some of the comments really hurt
[21:05] <pwnguin> its in the founding statement that it's free of charge
[21:05] <jbotscharow> i tried to not retaliate
[21:06] <Mike_Feravolo> first we need to know what we got already
[21:06] <Mike_Feravolo> i can try to contact the local groups and give them a wiki page to post links to maketing stuff
[21:07] <Mike_Feravolo> not the prettiest thing but a way to collect data
[21:07] <pep> to be honest john, several people, believe me, were tempted to take this to the Ubuntu Community Council... but I will not argue about this, and really don't want to get into this tonigh.
[21:07] <pep> +t
[21:08] <jbotscharow> ok
[21:08]  * pwnguin doesn't follow ubuntu-marketing often
[21:08] <pwnguin> just what happened?
[21:10] <jbotscharow> pwnguin: selling does not necessarily mean a financial transaction
[21:10] <pep> pwnguin: john came with a lot of very good intentions... but without much inside Ubuntu knowledge... this created conflicts, as many people were offended by the evolution of discussion (not blaming him!) and somebody should have stopped this before it got a little too far...
[21:11] <Mike_Feravolo> Excuse me people, but if you are afraid to use the word sell then what are you doing on a martketing team ?
[21:11] <pep> now there has been a new group created on Launchpad the "ubuntu core marketing group"
[21:13] <jbotscharow> to get back to the discussion about selling, pls
[21:13] <Mike_Feravolo> thank you
[21:13] <pwnguin> to me sell means offering for money. please tell me the new definition
[21:13] <jbotscharow> not alwats
[21:13] <jbotscharow> always
[21:13] <Mike_Feravolo> selling is getting someone to do something different, it has nothing to do with money
[21:14] <pwnguin> wow
[21:14] <jbotscharow> for instance, when you propose marriage, you are selling yourself
[21:14] <jbotscharow> when you ask your father to let you use the car, you are selling
[21:15] <Mike_Feravolo> How about getting or keeping a job
[21:15] <jbotscharow> when your kids ask to stay up past their nornmal bed time, they have better sell
[21:15] <pwnguin> well im not going to argue semantics
[21:15] <jbotscharow> LOL
[21:15] <Mike_Feravolo> kk\
[21:15] <jbotscharow> its more than semantics
[21:16] <jbotscharow> marketing is selling
[21:16] <pwnguin> if i may, marketing is advertising
[21:16] <jbotscharow> its a philosophical outlook on marketing
[21:16] <Mike_Feravolo> another thing telling people that something is free often makes them think you are trying to get over on them
[21:16] <jbotscharow> advertising is a form of marketing
[21:16] <pep> marketing is not only advertising pwnguin
[21:16] <jbotscharow> and yes, advertising is selling
[21:17] <pwnguin> pep: so what else does the marketing team do?
[21:17] <pep> it is everything relatind the product to the consumer imo...
[21:17] <pep> putting the product on the market... whatever that includes (maing it an image, selling it, setting prices, advertising, etc...)
[21:17] <pep> making*
[21:18] <pep> but basically it's aim is to make the product sell I suppose, yes...
[21:18] <Mike_Feravolo> john, just so you know software freedom includes the right to charge money for it and freedom isn't free
[21:18] <jbotscharow> you cannot make a product sell, you have to sell the product
[21:19] <pwnguin> Mike_Feravolo: well you're painting with a bit of a broad stroke, but yes.
[21:19] <pwnguin> still, at the core of Ubuntu's Promise is that it will remain free
[21:19] <pep> free of charge yes
[21:19] <pep> that does not exclude anything...
[21:19] <Mike_Feravolo> i am not just talking about ubuntu, i am talking about free software
[21:20] <jbotscharow> i don't have a problem with it being free - in both senses of the word
[21:20] <Mike_Feravolo> ubuntu is a trademark that is owned by a corportion in the uk
[21:20] <jbotscharow> ib fact, i consider that a plus
[21:21] <jbotscharow> but just becuz it's free of charge does not mean it will sell itself no matter how good it is
[21:21] <Mike_Feravolo> however from the standpoint of a USB Key carrying member of the Free Software Fondation, Ubuntu is okay
[21:22] <jbotscharow> nothing really sells itself. it may appear so, but that is actually the result of very good marketing
[21:22] <pwnguin> sorry to stir up this conversation. i just saw someone decide that ubuntu needed people who can sell things; i didnt realize it was a code word for advertising
[21:22] <Mike_Feravolo> i agree and passing out live cd's to non-techincal people isn't going to sell it either
[21:23] <Mike_Feravolo> words mean different things to different people, i think we all can agree on that
[21:23] <jbotscharow> agreed
[21:24] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why marketing on a gobal basis is quite a challange
[21:24] <jbotscharow> amd that is something that perhaps we need to establish
[21:24] <pwnguin> so what sorts of marketing activities does the team engage in/
[21:24] <pwnguin> ?
[21:24] <jbotscharow> some basic defintions for works like marketing, selling and advertising
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> i really think that we have a lot of good stuff, but there isn't an easy way to share it
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> that should be first
[21:25] <pwnguin> by stuff you mean "promotional materials"?
[21:25] <Mike_Feravolo> yes
[21:25] <pwnguin> ok
[21:25] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: we are working on that.. spreadubuntu project
[21:26] <jbotscharow> i agree
[21:26] <jbotscharow> we need to find all the stuff all over ubuntu
[21:26] <Mike_Feravolo> i haven't looked at spreadubuntu today, but the last thing it took me to the ubuntu main page
[21:26] <jbotscharow> and set up a page with links to all of  it
[21:26] <jbotscharow> catalog it
[21:26] <jbotscharow> organize it
[21:26] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: yes, taht's just a dns
[21:26] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: a bit of work before its actually live
[21:27] <pep> that's*
[21:27] <Mike_Feravolo> cool
[21:27] <jbotscharow> the spreadubuntu site is in the works
[21:27] <Mike_Feravolo> spreadbubuntu is easy to remember even if it's a bit fedora-ish
[21:28] <pep> it's a bit firefox-ish ...
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> but may thats a good thing
[21:28] <pep> ;)
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> that too
[21:28] <jbotscharow> i have a qyestuin
[21:28] <Mike_Feravolo> kk
[21:28] <pep> don't ask to ask :)
[21:28] <pep> one of the IRC rules
[21:28] <pep> well
[21:28] <pep> unwritten rules ;)
[21:28] <jbotscharow> how about we all work together on gathering and cataloging all the marketing materials
[21:28] <jbotscharow> ok
[21:29] <pwnguin> just ask
[21:29] <Mike_Feravolo> a wiki site 
[21:29] <pwnguin> wikis are terrible for art
[21:29] <jbotscharow> that would work
[21:29] <Mike_Feravolo> cms's aren't any better
[21:29] <pwnguin> something like a cross between gallery and pligg might be more suitable
[21:30] <Mike_Feravolo> wiki are easly editable, i started using them a lot for my own work
[21:30] <Flannel> pwnguin, jbotscharow, the previous marketing team has already done almost all of the planning needed to implement it.
[21:30] <jbotscharow> can we set up a gallery on ubuntu>
[21:31] <pwnguin> Flannel: once it goes live it'd be nice to see if it's suitable making the artwork team more accessible
[21:31] <Mike_Feravolo> i was thinking if the loco's are already hosting material somewhere, it might just be easier to link to it
[21:31] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why a thought of wiki vs gallery
[21:32] <Flannel> pwnguin: Aye.  Artwork team collaboration is a key part of it as well
[21:32] <pwnguin> excellent
[21:32] <Mike_Feravolo> artwork is key to marketing, people like pictures
[21:32] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: I *believe* all the content will be mirrored from a bzr branch, or at least, thats what I understand the plan to have been.
[21:32] <jbotscharow> Flannel: where is this previous planning?
[21:33] <pwnguin> mailing list archives?
[21:33] <Flannel> jbotscharow: In the marketing team wiki page, and a few others.  A lot of the pages were deleted, but I'll be undeleting them later today once I track them all down (better to do a whole batch of reverts)
[21:34] <pep> yes
[21:34] <pep> flannel is working on undeleting a lot of things and cetralizing apst work that was considered and then given up...
[21:34] <jbotscharow> cool
[21:35] <pep> just wait a week or two, and this will have a totally different aspect
[21:35] <jbotscharow> from what i've seen of the materials list on the wiki a lot of stuff has not been added
[21:35] <pwnguin> does the marketing team not do blueprints?
[21:35] <jbotscharow> stuff from the locos
[21:36] <jbotscharow> Flannel: I'd like to help with the organizing
[21:37] <Flannel> jbotscharow: Aye, a few others would too.  I'm working hard today to peel away all the history and figure out where we stand currently with it.
[21:39] <jbotscharow> just let me know what you need done that i can do - i can do simple wiki stuff. whenever you are ready for my help
[21:39] <jbotscharow> I am a good writer :-) it's what i do best
[21:40] <jbotscharow> and pretty good at organziing
[21:41] <Mike_Feravolo> I have contacts in the business community in the Orlando Florida Area and attend a lot of chamber commerce and business networking groups
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> which means that I can get things to the people in my local city
[21:42] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: Are you a part of the Florida LoCo?
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> yes
[21:42] <Mike_Feravolo> Flannel are you here in the state
[21:42] <jbotscharow> and I belong to the Arkansas Loco
[21:43] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: No, I'm California
[21:44] <jbotscharow> when did CA secede from the union? LOL Teasing you, Flannel
[21:44] <Mike_Feravolo> FLorida did once
[21:44] <jbotscharow> yep, so did AR
[21:45] <jbotscharow> I thot Flannel had misread ur question, mike, but it appears it was me who misread it
[21:46] <jbotscharow> I saw an s at the end of state
[21:46] <Mike_Feravolo> john what made you decide on ubuntu ?
[21:46] <jbotscharow> the guy who owns my web hosting company uses it and recommeneded it
[21:47] <jbotscharow> BTW Flannel he's in CA
[21:47] <Mike_Feravolo> it's a can't be hard to get people to dump windows
[21:47] <Mike_Feravolo> wow this is really bad ^^^^^^ english here
[21:47] <jbotscharow> I had tried mandrake a few years ago but cud not really get it work right
[21:48] <Mike_Feravolo> i mean that it is hard to get people away from windows
[21:48] <jbotscharow> i understood what u meant. np
[21:48] <Mike_Feravolo> ubuntu is one of the better live distros
[21:49] <Mike_Feravolo> one of things that really scare the COC type people are the live cd's
[21:49] <Mike_Feravolo> which is why something on people that sells ubuntu is better then giving away disks
[21:49] <jbotscharow> Mike: yest it is very hard but not impossiblw
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> on paper
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> enginer i cant spell it and i are one
[21:50] <Flannel> COC in this context being....?
[21:50] <Mike_Feravolo> Chamber of Commerce
[21:51] <Mike_Feravolo> business owners, sales people along with some corporate people
[21:51] <jbotscharow> we definitely have a language problem on this team. ROFL
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i am new to chatting
[21:52] <jbotscharow> we have those who speak marketing and we have those who speak developer
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i am not new to computer science
[21:52] <jbotscharow> no wonder some people think I troll
[21:52] <Mike_Feravolo> i guess some people can't take a joke
[21:53] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: CoC in Ubuntu context usually means Code of Conduct
[21:53] <Mike_Feravolo> i see the confusion
[21:53] <pep> an CC - community counsil
[21:53] <pep> and*
[21:54] <jbotscharow> a perfect example of what I mean: I knew what Mike meant and never thot of the Code
[21:54] <Mike_Feravolo> Sometime I forget Ubuntu is software
[21:54] <jbotscharow> we maybe should appoint a team translator
[21:55] <pep> no, I think it is not necessary :)
[21:56] <Mike_Feravolo> Ubuntu is a good operating system,  which is why I like it 
[21:56] <pep> but these examples explain recent "misunderstandings" on the list I think ;)
[21:56] <jbotscharow> probably not, but all kidding aside, I do think there definitely is some communication issues-different perspectives 
[21:57] <jbotscharow> like those who have a strong marketing but weak developer/Ubuntu background
[21:57] <Mike_Feravolo> Politics just gets in the way, just be nice to others and keep the flamage down to . . . like none
[21:57] <jbotscharow> and those with strong Ubuntu/dev background and weak marketing backgrond
[21:58] <Mike_Feravolo> yes an engineering degree doesn't leave much time for buiness classes
[21:59] <jbotscharow> I know, Mike. My college career included a freshman year in Engineering before switching to social sciense
[21:59] <Mike_Feravolo> however if you own a business, you are in sales and it dosen't matter what that business is.
[21:59] <jbotscharow> absolutely
[21:59] <pep> Mike_Feravolo: I actually study a belgian diploma.. managment engineer... lots of maths/physics, etc... engineering... and also lots of economy, marketing, law courses, etc.. managment..
[22:00] <pep> yes, it is hard to get oth aspects god
[22:00] <pep> good
[22:00] <pep> both
[22:00] <pep> oh sorry
[22:00] <pep> i type too fast
[22:00] <Mike_Feravolo> pep that's good, most colleges in the states don't give you that opporuntity
[22:01] <Mike_Feravolo> at least not back in the eighties
[22:01] <pep> here in belgium there are 2 main schools that do this special diploma
[22:02] <jbotscharow> my graduate school was like pep's college
[22:02] <Flannel> Mike_Feravolo: theres a number of colleges here that have similar degrees
[22:03] <pep> it is in 5 years here
[22:03] <jbotscharow> I studied antho, philosophy, theology, Polish language, history 
[22:03] <jbotscharow> and theology
[22:03] <pep> already said :)
[22:03] <jbotscharow> better system there than here
[22:04] <pep> and I have the feeling you particularly liked theology ;)
[22:04] <jbotscharow> oops
[22:04] <jbotscharow> yesm was working on doctorate when i quit to save my marriage but it was not worth saving, no marriage, no degree
[22:05] <Mike_Feravolo> I don't know outside of programming I studied as little as possiable and made the dean's list
[22:05] <jbotscharow> but now am happily married to new wife for 16 years
[22:05] <Mike_Feravolo> The dean of students that is
[22:06] <Mike_Feravolo> any way all joking aside, i think we are heading in the right direction
[22:06] <jbotscharow> brb
[22:08] <jbotscharow> back
[22:09] <jbotscharow> an etiquette question, I know all caps is bad manners. what is code for emphazing? *this?*
[22:11] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't know  
[22:12] <jbotscharow> pep: Pierre, you still here?
[22:13] <pep> yes jbotscharow
[22:13] <pep> you mean bold and underlined in IRC?
[22:14] <pep> the trigger is % followed by a letter
[22:14] <jbotscharow> yes
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> %xxx
[22:14] <pep>  % + C +number = color, % + B = bold, % + U = underlined
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> %b cool 
[22:14] <pep> capital B
[22:14] <Mike_Feravolo> please excuse this
[22:14] <jbotscharow> got it. ty
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> %B Test
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> %B Test %B
[22:15] <jbotscharow> %BTest
[22:15] <Mike_Feravolo> i don't see it on my end does anyone else ?
[22:16] <pep>  no 
[22:16] <jbotscharow> not me either
[22:16] <pep> but you've got to close it ...
[22:16] <pep>   and 
[22:16] <pep>  % B and % B
[22:16] <Mike_Feravolo> %BLike this%B
[22:16] <pep> except colors you don't need to close
[22:16] <pep> mhh
[22:16] <pep> how come I don't see it
[22:16] <pep> you see my bold writing?
[22:16] <jbotscharow> %BLike this?%B
[22:16] <pep>  hi 
[22:16] <Mike_Feravolo> must be my lane xchat client
[22:16] <pep> sorry
[22:17] <pep> must be my IRC client
[22:17] <pep> I am sorry
[22:17] <pep> my bad
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> i am running gnewsense on this machince
[22:17] <pep> I thought these were IRC commands, been using this client for too long
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> so much for being totaly free
[22:17] <pep> but you do see mine no?
[22:17] <Mike_Feravolo> yes it did
[22:17] <pep> well Mike_Feravolo, my client is free too, I use Konversation
[22:18] <pep> now in xchat it is probably different
[22:18] <jbotscharow> ahhhh
[22:18] <pep> maybe ask in #xchat
[22:18] <jbotscharow> I use pidgin
[22:18] <jbotscharow> maybe there is a plug in or a pref setting
[22:19] <jbotscharow> I need to go do some family stuff
[22:19] <pep> probalby you'll find it in the preferences
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> I guess I don't really need to do that
[22:19] <pep> I need to go get some sleep...
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> i got to get ready to got out too
[22:19] <jbotscharow> good night Pierre and ty for all the help
[22:19] <Mike_Feravolo> later
[22:20] <jbotscharow> ok
[22:20] <jbotscharow> ttyl
[23:38] <Flannel> jbotscharow: A project like that is more code than anything else, it's fairly straightforward
[23:40] <jbotscharow> can you do it>
[23:42] <Flannel> I've no idea re: firefox stuff.  Are you talking about this toolbar? https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4684
[23:43] <jbotscharow> Flannel: I'm talking on pm with Bruno about this. care to join us>
[23:44] <Flannel> We can't do three person queries.  It'd have to be a room.  And this one probably will work, so he could just join here
[23:45] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:45] <bbyever> hello
[23:45] <jbotscharow> don't go away
[23:45] <jbotscharow> he's here
[23:45] <Flannel> Howdy bbyever
[23:45] <bbyever> hi
[23:45] <Flannel> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4684 looks like the plugin you're talking about
[23:46] <jbotscharow> doing one conversation is a lot easier for me than two LOL
[23:46] <Flannel> and it looks like its packaged: http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/firefox-ubuntu-it-menu
[23:46] <bbyever> yep i've just installed it through synaptic
[23:46] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:47] <jbotscharow> so what now? what's the next step?
[23:47] <Flannel> firefox plugins, from what I understand, are mostly if not all, text based.  So you should be able to open it up and edit away.
[23:47] <bbyever> apt-get source and edit 
[23:47] <Flannel> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/firefox-extensions/ubuntu-it-menu.ubuntu is the bzr repo
[23:48] <Flannel> I dont think you'd need to apt-get the source, since I believe its just a bunch of xml files
[23:48] <Flannel> Although, I've really never dabbled in FF extensions
[23:50] <bbyever> i dont really know how to get the code through lp....
[23:51] <jbotscharow> ok, apt-get source  - how do i specify the specific package i want
[23:51] <bbyever> apt-get source firefox-ubuntu-it-menu
[23:52] <jbotscharow> I am really new to FOSS so you have to treat me like a dummy, I won't be offended
[23:52] <Flannel> The code is all in your .mozilla directory
[23:52] <Flannel> well, the plugins/extensions/whatever therein
[23:53] <jbotscharow> that leads me to ask another dummy question
[23:54] <jbotscharow> in my file manager those files don't show - the ones that start with a period. how do i get them to show
[23:54] <Flannel> jbotscharow: ctrl-H or view > show hidden files
[23:54] <jbotscharow> ok
[23:54] <Flannel> bbyever: Actually, looks like extensions are 'compiled' in some sense of the term
[23:54] <Flannel> So yeah, sudo apt-get source ubuntu-it-menu
[23:55] <Flannel> and then sudo apt-get build-deps ubuntu-it-menu
[23:55] <Flannel> will get you your build depends (if there are any)
[23:55] <bbyever> build-deps says invalid operation
[23:55] <jbotscharow> this is getting scarier by the minute LOL
[23:56] <bbyever> they're all in the debian/control though...
[23:56] <Flannel> bbyever: sorry, build-dep
[23:58] <jbotscharow> so, I edit the code to reflect the new links very carefully
[23:58] <jbotscharow> then sanve it
[23:59] <jbotscharow> what do I do if there are deps?
[23:59] <Flannel> jbotscharow: sudo apt-get build-dep ubuntu-it-menu
[23:59] <bbyever> sorry, power went out
[23:59] <Flannel> bbyever: its build-dep not build-deps
[23:59] <bbyever> ok
[23:59] <jbotscharow> ain't that fun!