[01:39] <gluer> Hey where can i download Intrepid?
[01:47] <Baron1984> gluer: You can't yet
[01:49] <gluer> baron: cool I wasnt sure if it was ready or not (alpha-1) cheers
[05:22] <Baron1984> !sudo
[05:32] <Jordan_U> Will epiphany-webkit likely be available in Intrepid?
[05:33] <Baron1984> package isn't there yet
[05:33] <Baron1984> but I am writing an article on Ubuntu right now
[05:33] <Baron1984> it isn't exactly roses, but I couldn't say what I wanted to say on any place where Ubuntu Team members had any authority
[05:33] <Baron1984> "And if you are on the Ubuntu Team and don't like me telling your users this......su me, or I guess you could sudo me if you like. :P"
[05:34] <Baron1984> next chapter is "Firefox: The Iran Contra of Ubuntu"
[05:35] <Baron1984> next chapter of that is "Why Getdeb.net exists, or why the Universe repository needs and archaeologist to carbon date the packages"
[05:36] <Baron1984> *an
[05:36] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, If you want a rolling release go with Arch ;)
[05:37] <Baron1984> It's not all about what gripes me with Ubuntu, it also tells the reader what I do like
[05:37] <Baron1984> I know we all have our opinions, but apparently if you don't 100% love, then Ubuntu Forums will ban you
[05:38] <Baron1984> they can't take constructive criticism from users and every distribution comes out looking largely the same
[05:39] <Baron1984> I guess with the attitude I've seen from the people running the project, they will murder you if you actually have an idea
[05:39]  * Baron1984 sudo apt-get install infinite-improbability-drive
[05:39] <Baron1984> :P
[05:41] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, I don't go to the forums much but I expect if you give constructive polite criticism ( i.e. not "why Universe needs archaeologists to carbon date the packages" ) you will probably not be banned
[05:42] <Baron1984> My idea with my posting is to give my readers a heads up on why they may or may not like Ubuntu
[05:42] <Baron1984> I think fair is fair
[05:42] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, error infinite-improbability-drive depends on bistromathics which has no installation candidate
[05:42] <Baron1984> The fanboy element of Ubuntu could swallow the Sun
[05:43] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, But are you doing it in a respectful manner or just trolling?
[05:43] <Baron1984> not really
[05:43] <Baron1984> I mentioned something about..the word that shall not be spoken.....and got banned
[05:44] <Baron1984> another term for it may be the administrator account
[05:44]  * Baron1984 earth starts vibrating
[05:44] <Baron1984> I've said too much!
[05:44] <Baron1984> and got thrown out of #ubuntu
[05:45] <Baron1984> so now I'm lampooning their rootsudo page
[05:45] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, If users know how to enable the root account they will do it, if the don't they probably should't have it enabled
[05:45] <Baron1984> and why they won't tell you how to enable it, just come here so a mod can do this:
[05:45] <Baron1984> !sudo
[05:45] <Baron1984> so you can go back to that page and be back to square one
[05:45] <Baron1984> thats a bad philosophy
[05:46] <Baron1984> it's like saying if you don't know how to use a computer, you shouldn't turn one on to begin with and find out
[05:46] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, Most people that want to enable the root account simply don't understand what sudo is / how to use it / why not to log in as root ( especially with a full gnome-session )
[05:47] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, How is it like that?
[05:47] <Baron1984> Sudo is retarded, it's not really a security thing, it just means that multiple administrators can find it convenient
[05:47] <Baron1984> in a single user environment, it usually hinders you
[05:47] <Baron1984> and craps up your system logs
[05:47] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, It keeps people from logging in as root from GDM, that's enough for me
[05:48] <Baron1984> GDM in Ubuntu doesn't let you do that anyway
[05:48] <Baron1984> even if Root is enabled
[05:48] <Baron1984> you have to go to the terminal and log in as root, then use startx
[05:48] <Baron1984> which sudo startx does the same thing
[05:48] <Baron1984> :)
[05:49] <Baron1984> so in otherwords root is like "mother" and Ubuntu is "Norman Bates"
[05:49] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, Can you give a use case where someone who does not know how to enable the root account would need to?
[05:49] <Baron1984> Ubuntu lovingly preserved it in the fruit celler and goes and speaks to it sometimes
[05:50] <Baron1984> Jordan_U: When they read some documentation discussing why it's there and what the implications are of turning it on
[05:50] <Baron1984> which is next to nothing if you already know enough to be issuing administrator commands anyway
[05:51] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, You have not demonstrated a case where a user who does not know how to needs to enable the root account
[05:53] <Baron1984> it's more convenient to use a root account, disabling it just breaks the operating system
[05:53] <Baron1984> and makes them jump through hoops to administer the system
[05:53] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, In what way is it more convenient?
[05:54] <Baron1984> maybe it's just preferences after using other Linux systems for nearly a decade
[05:54] <Baron1984> going through your logs, they aren't as cluttered
[05:54] <Baron1984> you can issue commands without prefixing them
[05:54] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, sudo -i is a lot like su - and su -c is a lot like sudo
[05:55] <Baron1984> the first thing I did was unhide the root terminal shortcut
[05:55] <Baron1984> which basically does that
[05:56] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, They is little difference ( in the way Ubuntu uses sudo, it has more features which are not used by default ) between the two other than with just sudo you can't enter 'root' at a login prompt
[05:56] <Baron1984> the running gag is that Ubuntu is Swahili for "Can't configure Debian"
[05:56] <Baron1984> this basically fits into that overall, far reaching complaint
[05:57] <Baron1984> I've also been a vocal critic of using Firefox vs. fixing Epiphany and giving the user a better experience
[05:57] <Baron1984> instead of just cashing in on Firefox's steam
[05:57] <Baron1984> they should default to Epiphany webkit, and tweak the crap out of it
[05:58] <Baron1984> and then say to users, it's fast and light on resources
[05:58] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, epiphany-webkit isn't mature enough yet
[05:59] <Baron1984> there's a lot of stuff in Ubuntu that I just don't like, KDE fixes most of it, but Kubuntu is more broken overall
[05:59] <Baron1984> it's why my post Goodbye Ubuntu existed
[06:00] <Baron1984> I could never figure out why Kubuntu could not detect my monitor's proper resolution for example, and creating a xorg.conf with the proper settings wouldn't fix it
[06:01] <Baron1984> I never did figure out what was going on with that
[06:01] <Jordan_U> Baron1984, But you should try to be more polite and constructive with your criticism, your comments here have frankly been somewhat immature
[06:04] <Baron1984> "The problem with GNOME and Epiphany, and most GNOME utilities is that they gut configuration options just for the sake of doing it, I tried to set them in "about:config" and Epiphany wouldn't let me, I took that as an insult."
[06:04] <Baron1984> part of my quest for a browser section
[06:09] <Baron1984> I refer to Firefox and Mozilla programs as "totally heinous"
[06:57] <Baron1984> Jordan_U: "Seriously, so far I must have at least a dozen or so Getdeb packages in my installation just because the versions in the Apt repository need to be be buried, but not in the Pet Cemetary or they may come back as Firefox, just look what happened to Mozilla Suite."
[06:57] <Baron1984> part of my article
[07:49] <enyc> hrrm *confused*
[08:46] <RAOF> Heh.  That's what I call "constructive criticism" :)
[08:48] <RAOF> Dear Ubuntu: I don't like your release process.  Kindly be another distro.  kthxbye.
[08:57] <Baron1984> RAOF: http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/ubuntu-linux-be-nice-to-your-masters-or-else/
[08:57] <Baron1984> you can get the full thing
[09:13] <DanaG> Heh, nobody told him about 'sudo -i' ?
[09:23] <Baron1984> well, the Ubuntu mods can moan all they want to, but they have no authority to take my posts down from there
[09:29] <RAOF_> From where?
[09:30] <RAOF_> Of course, "Ubuntu mods" isn't very precise, either.  Which ones?  Ubuntuforums mods?  IRC ops?  Mailinglist filterererereres.
[09:30] <DanaG> Mmm, OpenSuSE?  Enjoy the package manager.... =þ
[09:30] <Baron1984> first two
[09:31] <Baron1984> they've fixed Yast2 in 11, it uses zypper and it doesn't need to refresh the repos in front of you anymore
[09:31] <Baron1984> it's a cron job I think
[09:32] <RAOF_> Heh.  No use for my usage of the package manager ;)
[09:32] <Baron1984> well, truth is, if they don't like what I post there, they can whine, look at it again, and whine
[09:32] <Baron1984> they don't have the big "censor" option
[09:33] <Baron1984> even if I posted in OMG Pink Ponies anyway
[09:33]  * RAOF isn't quite sure where "there" is.
[09:33] <RAOF> Ah, right.  You're running up against the standing "don't tell people how to log in as root" orders?
[09:33] <DanaG> There's an 11?  Interesting.
[09:33] <DanaG> I'll have to VM it some time.
[09:34] <Baron1984> And I'm telling them how to take control of their systems, and a list of what personally angers me about dealing with Ubuntu
[09:35] <Baron1984> and why I feel I've grown past having to work against the operating system
[09:35] <RAOF> Then switch; this is a perfectly fine option.
[09:36] <DanaG> "have to prefix every command with sudo" -- not true.
[09:36] <RAOF> But I fullheartedly support not recommending that people log in as root.
[09:37] <RAOF> This is a pretty stupid thing to do, regardless of whether you dislike sudo or not.
[09:37] <DanaG> wow, Fedora's YumEx glitches as the progress bar moves.
[09:38] <RAOF> Fedora looked kinda cool, and very nearly installs on my system :)
[09:38] <DanaG> If you want to VM it, don't use 9 -- the X server is too new for VirtualBox additions.
[09:38] <RAOF> VM?  Nah; I want to see their nouveau packaging, which kinda requires bare-metal.
[09:39] <Baron1984> Fedora is perpetually broken
[09:39] <Baron1984> their attitude is they really don't care what they break
[09:39] <Baron1984> you get to keep both pieces
[09:39] <RAOF> Which is why you get new packages in there, yes.
[09:40] <DanaG> I've decided I won't be buying my next laptop until after the coming upgrade cycle.
[09:40] <RAOF> Also, that seems a gross mischaracterisation of their release policy.
[09:40] <Baron1984> Fedora is like permanently using an Alpha version of any other OS
[09:40] <Baron1984> it moves faster than Sonic The Hedgehog
[09:40] <DanaG> HP just released a bunch of updates to the consumer and midrange-business laptops last Tuesday.
[09:40] <DanaG> So, I'm going to wait until they do the same to the Performance ones.
[09:40] <RAOF> Ah, _that_ refresh cycle.
[09:40] <Baron1984> well, this is how it goes.......
[09:41] <RAOF> Are you thinking rawhide, or one of the releases?
[09:41] <Baron1984> You have Version X of the kernel and Version X of Nvidia drivers
[09:41] <RAOF> Hah!  Good luck.
[09:41] <Baron1984> they release Version Y of the kernel
[09:41] <Baron1984> you have a busted kernel module
[09:41] <RAOF> Yeah.  They care about annoying proprietary drivers less than we do.
[09:41] <Baron1984> X crashes
[09:41] <RAOF> Sucks to be you.
[09:42] <DanaG> I'm hoping HP will replace the HD2600 with a 3650 or even a 4-series.
[09:42] <Baron1984> well sorry for playing a game
[09:42] <Baron1984> seriously, what should I do?
[09:42] <RAOF> Use Ubuntu? :)
[09:42] <RAOF> Not upgrade the kernel?
[09:42] <RAOF> Help write nouveau's 3d support?
[09:42] <DanaG> Or even upstream Debian, if you don't want to leave apt.
[09:42] <Baron1984> fix it every day, use Ubuntu which will never improve because it was designed to do bad things
[09:42] <Baron1984> or the third option
[09:43] <RAOF> Do Fedora even package the nvidia drivers?
[09:43] <Baron1984> Livna does
[09:43] <Baron1984> they're about 3-4 days behind every kernel update
[09:44] <RAOF> Then don't upgrade the kernel until the nvidia drivers are updated?
[09:44] <Baron1984> so you could just hold back on the update, yeah I suppose
[09:44] <RAOF> Or improve their packaging so that it uses dkms.
[09:44] <DanaG> ﻿It'd be especially sweet to have true multichannel digital output over HDMI... but then I'd also need a decoder.
[09:44] <Baron1984> Livna is not endorsed by Fedora
[09:44] <DanaG> I wonder if anybody makes a bare audio-only decoder for HDMI.
[09:44] <RAOF> Damn straight it isn't.  That doesn't mean you can't improve their packaging, though.
[09:45] <RAOF> Ah.  I see someone's just fixed the bug I was about to report :)
[09:45] <Baron1984> To be in compliance with the Fedora Way, you rip out your Nvidia card and use motherboard video
[09:45] <Baron1984> make sure you have Intel or Ralink wireless
[09:45] <Baron1984> and buy all your codecs from Fluendo
[09:45] <Baron1984> and a copy of LinDVD
[09:45] <Baron1984> right, uh huh, sure
[09:45] <RAOF> IE: don't break the law, yes.
[09:45] <Baron1984> get right on that
[09:45] <DanaG> You can take my mplayer from my cold, dead fingers.
[09:46] <DanaG> I like watching MKV stuff, with fancy subtitles with embedded font and position data.
[09:46] <Baron1984> you can take my Gstreamer-plugins-bad and Gstreamer-plugins-ugly and libdvdcss2 from my cold, dead fingers
[09:46] <Baron1984> screw Nero Linux
[09:46] <RAOF> Man it'd be awesome if the ffmpeg devs weren't absolutely against making their library useful by releasing the frikking thing.
[09:46] <Baron1984> double screw Fluendo
[09:46] <RAOF> Yay Fluendo.  I very much appreciate the ability to legally play content.
[09:47] <Baron1984> and screw Fedora with a rusty fork
[09:47] <DanaG> Interesting thing to use in a VM: the little mouse-grabby applet.
[09:47] <RAOF> Baron1984: Where are you?  Anywhere that's signed a FTA with the US in the past couple of years?
[09:47] <Baron1984> I'm not in the US, no, not at all
[09:47] <Baron1984> :P
[09:47] <Baron1984> errr, whatever
[09:47] <Baron1984> Negative Negative, I am a meat popsicle
[09:48] <DanaG> Did I show you my little iGoogle fox thingy?
[09:48] <Baron1984> yeah, Google helped them reverse engineer WMA and WMV
[09:48] <Baron1984> because they want to be sued
[09:48] <Baron1984> great logic there bud
[09:49] <DanaG> Huh?
[09:49] <RAOF> Except that WMV isn't reverse engineered; it's a public standard.  VC-1.
[09:49] <Baron1984> FFmpeg got Windows Media support through Google's SUmmer of Code
[09:49] <Baron1984> VC-1 is not WMV
[09:49] <Baron1984> they are similar
[09:49] <RAOF> Well, that's a lie, of course.  WMV is a container, which may or may not contain VC-1 video.
[09:50] <Baron1984> MP3 is patented, but has never been aggressively enforced
[09:50] <Baron1984> because tons of companies each own a patent or three on it
[09:50] <RAOF> The wmv3 video codec is vc-1.  I think with some small differences, but pretty much vc-1
[09:50] <Baron1984> which will all have expired in a few years
[09:51] <RAOF> Yay!  We'll be able to ship mp3 encoding finally.
[09:51] <Baron1984> Fluendo MP3 is free
[09:51] <Baron1984> they give out a license to all Linux users through their codec
[09:51] <RAOF> Yup.  To decode.
[09:52] <Baron1984> I still use the one from Gstreamer
[09:52] <RAOF> IIRC.  It's possible that they've also got a free encoder.
[09:52] <Baron1984> oh, why would anyone WANT to encode to MP3?
[09:52] <RAOF> Because they have a portable music player?
[09:52] <Baron1984> it's obsolete, technically anyway
[09:52] <Baron1984> meh, they should be using a player that supports FLAC or Vorbis
[09:53] <RAOF> Eh.  It's both good enough, and supported everywhere.
[09:53] <Baron1984> or Rockbox or something
[09:53] <DanaG> I have my iAudio6 for two specific reasons:
[09:53] <Baron1984> Samsung and Sandisk players support Vorbis
[09:53] <Baron1984> I know that
[09:53] <DanaG> One is play-by-folder ability.
[09:53] <DanaG> The other is Ogg (Vorbis) and FLAC ability.
[09:53] <Baron1984> so I could really don't care about MP3
[09:53]  * RAOF doesn't think his ipod has the CPU to decode flac at realtime.
[09:53] <DanaG> Oh, and it's standard USB Mass Storage.
[09:54] <Baron1984> RAOF, a Gen 5 ipod can decode FLAC
[09:54] <DanaG> When I play ogg on the thing, some of the audio effects (like the speed changing) don't work, and the interface slows down.
[09:54] <Baron1984> but the default firmware won't do it
[09:54] <crdlb> they decode vorbis in software though
[09:54] <crdlb> so it kills the battery life
[09:54] <RAOF> Well, that's a great comfort for my 3rd gen ipod.
[09:54] <Baron1984> you'd need Rockbox
[09:54] <DanaG> The only way I'd ever consider an iPod Touch: give me play-by-folder ability, and give me ogg and flac.
[09:54] <Baron1984> I converted my ipod over to Rockbox
[09:54] <Baron1984> I have tons of Vorbis on it
[09:54] <Baron1984> not a single proprietary format
[09:55] <RAOF> (But uses the proprietary nvidia drivers)
[09:55] <Baron1984> I don't use them, they are evil and way too easy to avoid in the first place
[09:55] <Baron1984> Nvidia is hard to avoid if you want 3d acceleration
[09:55] <Baron1984> never said they weren't evil
[09:55] <DanaG> I'm going ATI next time.
[09:56] <Baron1984> FGLRX is still a binary blob
[09:56] <DanaG> NVIDIA has just given me another reason to avoid them.
[09:56] <DanaG> http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTUxOSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
[09:56] <DanaG> Can't comparison-shop if nobody's allowed to show the real prices.
[09:56] <Baron1984> heh, price fixing
[09:56] <DanaG> At least ATI is open-source now.
[09:56] <Baron1984> welcome to the world of video games
[09:56] <DanaG> Actually, not quite:
[09:56] <Baron1984> no they aren't
[09:56] <Baron1984> they released specs, not code
[09:56] <DanaG> They can sell at price X, but can't advertise that price.
[09:57] <Baron1984> it'll take forever to get a real working open source ATI driver
[09:57] <Baron1984> that can provide 3d acceleration
[09:57] <DanaG> Actually, it already can do UT2k4.
[09:57] <RAOF> Which one?  radeon or radeon_hd?
[09:57] <RAOF> On what hardware?
[09:57] <DanaG> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ati_r500_gaming&num=1
[09:57] <RAOF> ('cause < r300 is obviously fairly well supported already)
[09:58] <Baron1984> ok, I looked and was wrong, there is an open source driver, but it's way slower
[09:58] <RAOF> r500?  Cool.  Using gallium, or the existing dri.
[09:58] <Baron1984> and only works on some cards
[09:58] <DanaG> It's getting closer.
[09:58] <Baron1984> I still have to use FGLRX
[09:58] <Baron1984> well, ok, when it gets THERE
[09:58] <Baron1984> I will buy a Radeon
[09:59] <DanaG> I've had enough of nvidia; even if ATI is not "better" right now, I do want to support them, on principle of open-source-ness.
[09:59] <Baron1984> Nvidia will never "feel the hurt" enough to open their source or specs
[10:00] <RAOF> Well, that's just fine.  AMD has, and is funding driver development, and as such gets my next dollar.
[10:00] <DanaG> Fo'shure.
[10:00] <DanaG> And nvidia chipsets are bad too: got data corruption?
[10:01] <DanaG> =þ
[10:02] <DanaG> I'll be giving my next laptop the hostname "Yggdrasil"
[10:03] <Baron1984> meh, Nvidia's drivers never gave me trouble, except for upgrading the kernel
[10:03]  * RAOF recognises that, but can't pin it down.
[10:03] <Baron1984> but I suppose one more open driver is one less PITA
[10:03] <DanaG> Norse mythology.
[10:03] <DanaG> But I'm getting to it through an anime series.
[10:03] <RAOF> Baron1984: And having crappy dual-head support, and miscelaneous other anoyances.
[10:03] <DanaG> And *blink*
[10:03] <DanaG> that.
[10:03] <RAOF> Damn straight.
[10:04] <Baron1984> again, never had any trouble out of them except kernel upgrades
[10:04] <DanaG> ﻿Oh yeah, one thing I'm going to do to "tide myself over" -- if that's the right term:
[10:04] <Baron1984> which anger me enough to where I will probably buy a Radeon next time
[10:04] <Baron1984> but Linux users are in the extreme minority
[10:04] <Baron1984> and we'll never be able to dictate what they will and won't give us
[10:04] <DanaG> My current laptop has 2x512 DDR2-667.  I'm going to buy myself a 2GB DDR2-800 SODIMM, to give myself 2.5GB.
[10:05] <Baron1984> it's sad but true
[10:05] <DanaG> Then I can bring it with me to the new laptop, which I'll get with another 2GB SODIMM.
[10:05] <RAOF> Baron1984: Perhaps.  On the other hand, we can certainly exercise _some_ clout by supporting things which Just Work.
[10:06] <DanaG> Oh yeah, something random: I was telling somebody about HP's new "EliteBook" -- and the person said, "You know, you're starting to sound like a fanboy."
[10:06] <DanaG> My response:  "Starting?  I already know I'm a fanboy -- I'm just not the rabid kind."
[10:06] <Baron1984> tell you honestly, ATI must really be hurting if they gave 0.68% of us what we asked for
[10:06] <Baron1984> I guess we're an extreme minority that's picky about hardware
[10:07] <RAOF> AMD were always more open-source friendly.  And making a couple of percent of the market happy is worthwhile, particularly if it doesn't really cost you much.
[10:07] <Baron1984> and that number was 0.29% before Windows Vista
[10:07] <DanaG> Oh yeah, if you have time, do google for that EliteBook.
[10:08] <DanaG> NVIDIA's Windows drivers aren't a "picnic" either.
[10:08] <RAOF> Drivers basically such.
[10:08] <DanaG> Vista drivers still don't do custom resolutions -- even 1280x960.
[10:08] <RAOF> s/such/suck/
[10:08] <Baron1984> then why is Nvidia doing this scorched Earth thing against opening their drivers?
[10:08] <RAOF> Dunno.
[10:08] <RAOF> Maybe they don't want to bother, or don't think it's worth their while.
[10:08] <RAOF> Maybe they don't _have_ specs.
[10:09] <Baron1984> Nvidia's newer drivers will support PhysX on their Geforce 8 and 9
[10:09] <DanaG> Old GeForce4 Go (which is GeForce 2) with really old XP drivers... can do many more resolutions than my newer GeForce Go 7600 on ANY of the Vista drivers.
[10:09] <RAOF> There's a non-zero amount of administration/setup required in releasing specifications.
[10:09] <Baron1984> Vista's drivers are pretty bad
[10:09] <Baron1984> to go full screen with a DOS program, you need XP video drivers
[10:09] <RAOF> Also, in the past nvidia hasn't used X infrastructure because X was crap.
[10:10] <DanaG> And now ATI's Vista drivers are getting Hydravision (the multi-desktop multi-monitor management thingy) again.  NVIDIA doesn't have nView in Vista.
[10:10] <Baron1984> they say they support X Server 1.5 in Suse
[10:10] <Baron1984> I guess I'll find out here in a bit
[10:10] <Baron1984> really Suse 11 seems to have a lot of the new technologies without all the Fedora problems
[10:10] <RAOF> Baron1984: They support it, yeah.  In that it'll load.  It won't support XRandR1.2, which is where dual-head is _at_.
[10:11] <DanaG> Heh, one time I compared my Voodoo3 to a GeForce 2.... and there was one thing the Voodoo3 does better:
[10:11] <Baron1984> I saw ext4 and had to have it really
[10:11] <Baron1984> so they had me at hello
[10:11] <Baron1984> :)
[10:11] <DanaG> Voodoo3 can do video overlay even at 1280x960 with 32-bit (24+8) color.
[10:11] <DanaG> GeForce3: nope, not above 1024x768.
[10:11] <Baron1984> besides, they may actually have a working KDE 4
[10:11] <RAOF> Eh, Hardy supports ext4, I believe.
[10:11] <DanaG> And this was under XP, actually.
[10:11] <Baron1984> which can put an end to this GNOME crap
[10:12] <DanaG> 3dfx died before XP came out.
[10:12] <Baron1984> 32fx cards work under XP
[10:12] <RAOF> You know, I'm not terribly surprised you're a gnome hater :)
[10:12] <Baron1984> with Windows 2000 drivers
[10:12] <DanaG> Oh yeah, that reminds me: I tried my 3dfx card in Linux, and the strangest thing happened.
[10:12] <RAOF> It worked OOB?
[10:12] <DanaG> Not quite.
[10:12] <Baron1984> RAOF: Anyone with a brain, who has tried to configure and use Epiphany
[10:12] <Baron1984> hates GNOME
[10:12] <DanaG> The Xorg log showed it getting exactly the right edid..... but it wouldn't let me use full resolution.
[10:12] <Baron1984> anyone with an ipod hates Rhythmbox, and therefore GNOME
[10:12] <DanaG> Log showed it seeing 1280x1024.... but it only let me use 800x600.
[10:13] <DanaG> However, it was on a system with a thoroughly screwed-up motherboard, so that may not be the fault of tdfx.
[10:13]  * RAOF has both a brain, and quite likes Epiphany.  On the other hand, I use it as a _browser_, so my mileage may differ to yours.
[10:13] <Baron1984> Anyone who knows that Compiz is tacked onto GDM hates GNOME
[10:13] <RAOF> What does that even mean?
[10:13] <DanaG> What does compiz have to do with gdm?
[10:14] <Baron1984> two different projects, KDE 4 has a compositing manager built in
[10:14] <Baron1984> theirs
[10:14] <RAOF> As does Gnome.
[10:14] <Baron1984> lots of reasons to ditch GNOME
[10:14] <RAOF> Well, again, certainly if you're not in the target audience.
[10:14] <Baron1984> some technical inferiorities, some blanket assumptions that all users are morons
[10:15] <Baron1984> GNOME is just getting too hostile to take seriously
[10:15] <Baron1984> too much dumbing down
[10:15] <RAOF> Heh.  You're in good company here.  Linus is also wrong :)
[10:15] <Baron1984> I don't believe it cause he said it
[10:16] <Baron1984> I believe it cause it's F-ing true
[10:16] <Baron1984> seriously, try to configure advanced settings in Epiphany, wait it has none
[10:16] <RAOF> What do you want to configure?
[10:16] <Baron1984> edit about:config, it won't let you change some things
[10:16] <DanaG> And what happened to the settings for brightness when on battery?
[10:16] <Baron1984> THANK YOU
[10:17] <Baron1984> GOD BLESS YOU
[10:17] <Baron1984> may you live to be 1,000
[10:17] <Baron1984> you have to use Fn key and hammer down on F8
[10:17] <RAOF> about:config may be the worst interface ever :)
[10:17] <Baron1984> EVERY TIME you boot
[10:17] <DanaG> Live to 1000?
[10:17] <DanaG> ﻿... only if I can have a beautiful goddess with me.
[10:18] <Baron1984> I want to kick Miguel De Icaza in the nuts
[10:18] <DanaG> That thing about fn reminds me: HP's business laptops have a BIOS option to swap fn and ctrl!  How cool is that?
[10:18] <Baron1984> seriously
[10:18] <Baron1984> after using this crap forever waiting on KDE 4
[10:19] <RAOF> You could always use kde3?
[10:19] <Baron1984> because I had erroneously assumed all KDE distros must be broken, because Kubuntu is
[10:19] <RAOF> It sounds like you're the target KDE audience.
[10:19] <Baron1984> I love options and utilities
[10:19] <Baron1984> back the configuration menu truck up
[10:19] <Baron1984> and dump it on me
[10:19] <DanaG> I've never quite found a KDE style and windeco I like.
[10:20] <Baron1984> there were some things about Kubuntu I liked, but some behavioral quirks too
[10:20]  * RAOF never found the right option under the pile of 3 different options menues full of hundreds of entries :)
[10:20] <Baron1984> I really feel I need to get out of this whole *buntu mess
[10:21] <Baron1984> and just start over
[10:21] <RAOF> Again, a perfectly fine option.
[10:21] <RAOF> Ubuntu's choices may not mesh with yours.
[10:21] <Baron1984> I mean, I even noted that Ubuntu might be OK for non power-users
[10:21] <Baron1984> to make them feel good about using Linux
[10:22] <crdlb> about:config doesn't work with epiphany because epiphany tries to use gecko as a library, not a ready-to-go browser
[10:22] <DanaG> damnit, the csc web space at Cal Poly is currently down... so I can't post my screenshot there.
[10:22] <crdlb> which is why epiphany is moving to webkit
[10:22] <Baron1984> if you can use Windows, you can use Ubuntu, it has gotten to that point, and does it well
[10:22]  * RAOF notes that the Ubuntu developer team is _made_ of power-users, and they find Ubuntu very nice to use.
[10:22] <Baron1984> but it's not for users who want control over the system
[10:23] <DanaG> I'm a tweak-crazy person, and I still like Ubuntu -- you can choose how deep you delve.
[10:23] <DanaG> I tried Gentoo once, but realized something: I like tweaking from the top down, not building from the ground up.
[10:23] <Baron1984> I will miss the Nimbus theme though
[10:23] <Baron1984> can't do that on KDE
[10:23] <DanaG> What's a good image paste site?
[10:23] <crdlb> picpaste.com !
[10:25] <DanaG> http://picpaste.com/screenshot-orange-nodoka.png
[10:25] <DanaG> Box is a gnome-screenshot glitch.
[10:25] <DanaG> Busiest.  Gnome.  Panel.  Ever.
[10:25] <DanaG> =þ
[10:25] <RAOF> You also might want to use Compiz on kde too; kwin had some edges which annoyed me.
[10:26] <DanaG> I like that theme engine.
[10:26] <RAOF> DanaG: You'll be happy to know that gtk-engine-nodoka is now in Unstable, and as such should be available in intrepid either now, or soon.
[10:26] <RAOF> Yeah, nodoka's niec.
[10:26] <DanaG> Sweet.
[10:26] <DanaG> It's nicer once you change the "band-aid dots" on scrollbars to those lines instead.
[10:27] <DanaG> I like orange -- it's a cool color.
[10:27] <DanaG> Though every time I mention the engine name, I can't help thinking of a character with that name.'
[10:27] <RAOF> Yeah.  I'd like a warmer background colour (or maybe even some form of subtle pattern!), but you've just posted my theme :)
[10:28] <DanaG> Pattern?  Do you mean wallpaper, or window background?
[10:28] <DanaG> http://willwill100.deviantart.com/art/Interpid-Ibex-Wallpaper-1-87094933
[10:28] <DanaG> This would be cool, if it weren't for the logo.
[10:29] <RAOF> Window backround.  Rather than flat grey, something with a subtle texture.
[10:29] <DanaG> Oh yeah, and my windeco is Tropic without the red button.
[10:29] <DanaG> It adds a tiny bit of 'pizazz'.
[10:29] <Baron1984> I wonder if they have a KDE theme that looks like Nimbus
[10:30] <Baron1984> I really do find that theme attractive, never liked Human
[10:30] <RAOF> You could load up qt-gtk-engine :)
[10:30] <Baron1984> what's that?
[10:30] <DanaG> Eeh, wrong direction.
[10:30] <Baron1984> lets it use GTK themes?
[10:30] <RAOF> Yes.
[10:30] <DanaG> gtk→qt wrapper exists... but not the other way around.
[10:30] <Baron1984> SWEET!
[10:31] <DanaG> I've looked.
[10:31] <DanaG> gtk app using qt engine.
[10:31] <RAOF> There's a QT developer developing proper gtk integration.
[10:31] <Baron1984> well, Opera will probably work a lot better on Suse
[10:32] <RAOF> WHy?
[10:32] <Baron1984> it just seems like square peg in a round hole on Ubuntu
[10:32] <Baron1984> it's a QT app and probably wants Xine based plugins
[10:32] <Baron1984> it hates Totem-Mozilla
[10:33] <DanaG> Oh yeah, Amarok + PulseAudio == huge pain in the <gerk!> keyboard.
[10:33] <Baron1984> it isn't too fond of icedtea either
 is me deleting an expletive.
[10:33] <Baron1984> meaning that my whole change at having 100 MB of JAVA for Runescape is blown
[10:33] <RAOF> That's xine, I think.  I'm fairly sure xine's pulseaudio output has got better since then.
[10:33] <Baron1984> :P
[10:33] <DanaG> You hit pause, it freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezes.
[10:33] <DanaG> AT least last time I tried, which was at least 3 months ago.
[10:34] <DanaG> And if you use the Global Hotkeys feature, and hit the Pause hotkey............. bye-bye, all keyboard functionality!
[10:34] <RAOF> Awesome.
[10:34] <DanaG> At least until it unfreezes a few minutes later.
[10:34]  * RAOF is using Banshee-1, now that it's grown a playqueue.
[10:35] <DanaG> Can banshee do play-by-folders?
[10:35] <DanaG> Quodlibet can, but when PulseAudio dies, it's a pain to have to use htop to kill it.
[10:35] <DanaG> It's not a binary "quodlibet" -- instead, it's Python.
[10:36] <DanaG> Perhaps I should "box up" my theme some time.
[10:39] <RAOF> You should file a bug against quadlibet, then.  It's perfectly possible for it to be associated wich the 'quadlibet' name.
[10:39] <DanaG> quodlibet.
[10:48] <DanaG> bug 201202
[10:49] <DanaG> I think my orange theme would be nice and simple enough to include -- it's not a drastically different thing, but it does look nice.
[10:52] <DanaG> NetworkManager deals very badly with roaming at my school.
[10:52] <DanaG> Each access point is a different subnet; NetworkManager doesn't seem to comprehend that that's even possible.
[10:53] <DanaG> Oh yeah, and another highly random thing: if you think you see fish in the sky in my screenshot... you're right.  I find it funny.
[10:56] <Darkside> oh heh :P
[10:56] <Darkside> aaaaaaaanyway, from the other channel.... i was wondering if its possible to use the Intrepid Alpha kernel with hardy?
[10:57] <Darkside> the kernel 2.6.24 doesn't work with my laptop (ACPI issues)
[15:07] <linux1_> hiya ppl anyone had problems with odd sound coming out of system speak when using the 2.6.26 kernel
[15:58] <jacob> MY EARS
[15:58] <jacob> 2.6.26-1 does not like sound
[16:00] <linux1_> hehe
[16:00] <linux1_> is it a know problem
[16:01] <jacob> :P
[16:01] <jacob> i really want to use this kernel, but i can't even mute the sound :-X
[16:02] <linux1_> i could have remove the interal speak but that not a good idea
[16:03] <jacob> killing pulseaudio seems to have shut off most noises
[16:05] <linux1_> ah i think i will wait until 2.6.26-1+
[16:47] <wd4lko> anybody using  2.6.26-1-generic kernel ? the hard drive makes cracking noise !
[17:54] <wd4lko> anybody using  2.6.26-1-generic kernel ? the hard drive makes cracking noise !
[17:57] <wd4lko> any word on alpha 1 yet ?
[17:58] <baron1984> the kernel is most of what's holding it up I'd imagine
[17:59] <wd4lko> is tt 25 or 26 ?
[17:59] <baron1984> well, until the Debian import freeze, who knows?
[18:00] <DanaG> ../../src/xcb_lock.c:77: _XGetXCBBuffer: Assertion `((int) ((xcb_req) - (dpy->request)) >= 0)' failed.
[18:00] <baron1984> Running Ubuntu is like having a buffer between you and Debian Sid
[18:00] <wd4lko> im tring 26, its fast but hard drive makes noise
[18:00] <baron1984> usually there's very little to gain in trying to run a later kernel by building it yourself
[18:00] <baron1984> aside from a major headache
[18:01] <wd4lko> it was already built
[18:01] <baron1984> it's in Ubuntu's repo already?>
[18:01] <baron1984> strange
[18:02] <wd4lko> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kernel-ppa/ubuntu/ intrepid main
[18:02] <baron1984> well in any event, 2.6.26 is going to be one of those wonky kernels that just ain't right
[18:02] <baron1984> I feel it
[18:02] <baron1984> it's already had tons of release candidates
[18:02] <baron1984> and 350 commits in the last one
[18:02] <baron1984> this is not going to be good
[18:03] <DanaG> 2.6.24 was initially a major regression for me, with the new scheduler not set correctly.
[18:03] <wd4lko> i know, im going back to my old 18
[18:03] <DanaG> Giving half of all CPU cycles to something running SCHED_IDLEPRIO... that's not correct.
[18:03] <baron1984> DanaG: I use linux-rt
[18:03] <baron1984> it smooths that out a lot
[18:03] <G_009> 19
[18:04] <DanaG> What's new in 2.6.26?
[18:04] <DanaG> ANd what is this SAUCE I keep seeing in the changelogs?
[18:04] <baron1984> DanaG: KernelNewbies probably sums it up
[18:05] <DanaG> http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_26
[18:05] <DanaG>   Estamos trabajando en ellou...(we're working on it!)
[18:05] <DanaG> that's what it says.
[18:06] <baron1984> it looks like they're putting in a bunch more preemption
[18:06] <baron1984> thank god
[18:06] <baron1984> maybe Linux will start acting more like BSD under load
[18:06] <DanaG> Firefox 3.0 also sucks in one way:
[18:06] <baron1984> instead of freaking out and dumping core
[18:06] <baron1984> Firefox 3 sucks in a lot of ways
[18:06] <baron1984> mainly RAM usage though
[18:07] <DanaG> The AwesomeBar is more like the AweFREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZEsomeFREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZEbar.
[18:07] <baron1984> Firefox 3 takes more RAM than a fully booted copy of WINDOWS 2000!
[18:07] <baron1984> and this is progress
[18:07] <baron1984> I'm tempted to downgrade back to Firefox 2
[18:07] <baron1984> it wasn't perfect, but damn
[18:08] <baron1984> if it helps, Swift Weasel is slightly more behaved
[18:08] <wd4lko> how abt the mozilla FLOCK ?
[18:09] <baron1984> but it goes to war with Firefox's extensions
[18:09] <baron1984> all you really need to do is uninstall all the listings in Swift Weasel and then reinstall them there
[18:09] <baron1984> Flock is the most worthless fork ever
[18:10] <baron1984> it's like a Firefox that's even more bloated, so it can integrate with Myspace and Twitter
[18:10] <baron1984> I have a standard line about Firefox
[18:11] <baron1984> It's the Iran-Contra of Ubuntu
[18:11] <baron1984> a terrible compromise
[18:11] <baron1984> Epiphany-Webkit will pwn Firefox quite thoroughly
[18:12] <baron1984> as far as speed and resources and all that nice stuff goes
[18:12] <baron1984> and Ubuntu's developers would be fools to not make that default, at least in Xubuntu
[18:12] <baron1984> it would be so perfect there
[18:13] <baron1984> the way I see it Firefox in Ubuntu is bypassing elegant solutions so they can say "Yep, we have Firefox!" to all the Windows users on the fence
[18:13] <DanaG> how do I fix this?
[18:13] <DanaG> ../../src/xcb_lock.c:77: _XGetXCBBuffer: Assertion `((int) ((xcb_req) - (dpy->request)) >= 0)' failed.
[18:14] <DanaG> I can't run the ut2004 demo, because it gives me that error.
[18:15] <baron1984> quit using unsupported configurations? sorry, thats all I know to say
[18:15] <baron1984> going too far ahead of the pack usually means that you get slapped with all the really horrible bugs and nowhere to get help
[18:16] <baron1984> the topic in here even says don't use the Intrepid packages unless you can deal with breakage
[18:17] <baron1984> I'm gonna at least wait for Beta
[18:17] <DanaG> And wtf is SAUCE?
[18:17] <baron1984> Sauce?
[18:17] <DanaG> In the linux-image-2.6.26-1-generic changelog.
[18:20]  * DanaG doesn't know what "Iran-Contra" is.
[18:21] <DanaG> Is there an ETA for 2.6.26 LUM package?
[18:21] <DanaG> I seem to remember the ALSA modules being in that package, not in the base kernel.
[18:21] <DanaG> And same with iwl3945.
[18:32] <baron1984> the kernels have been getting smaller lately because they're deleting legacy crap out of them
[18:35] <DanaG> Still, any ETA on binary package?
[18:35] <DanaG> Or at least on "apt-get source"-able.
[18:46] <baron1984> anyone know where I can find a DEB for Epiphany-Webkit?
[19:22] <Luckrider> http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-3.0&os=win&lang=en-US
[19:29] <baron1984> I think Firefox pwned themselves
[19:32] <rsk> no shit
[19:33] <amblin> seems like they were totally unprepaired for this
[19:38] <rsk> not _totally_
[19:38] <rsk> but not enough
[19:38] <Jordan_U> How did Firefox pwn themselves?
[19:39] <amblin> asked a bazillion people to DOS them
[19:39] <baron1984> They say "Hey come crash our server"
[19:39] <baron1984> "Make history even"
[19:39] <baron1984> "Make US history"
[19:39] <Jordan_U> Ahh, I thought they could take it, guess not :)
[19:39] <baron1984> :)
[19:39] <baron1984> I actually uninstalled Firefox today
[19:39] <baron1984> :P
[19:40] <baron1984> I'm tired of that bloated pile of crap
[19:40] <baron1984> it's practically a bug if there's anything left in Firefox that doesn't leak RAM
[19:40] <Jordan_U> baron1984, Have you tried FF3?
[19:40] <baron1984> unfortunately
[19:41] <amblin> baron1984: my experience with 3 has been very positive, leak/ram wise
[19:41] <Jordan_U> baron1984, It does better memory wise than Opera on my box
[19:41] <baron1984> it takes up more RAM than most operating systems
[19:41] <baron1984> it's no browser, it's the freaking death star
[19:42] <amblin> i would be very please, except for flash crashing the browser every 5 minutes
[19:42] <Jordan_U> baron1984, Seriously, try FF3
[19:42] <baron1984> seriously, I did
[19:42] <baron1984> and there's jsut no way to even fix it
[19:42] <Jordan_U> amblin, Nothing Mozilla can do about that, that's macrodobe's fault
[19:42] <amblin> Jordan_U yup in kow
[19:42] <baron1984> it's not Gecko thats the problem
[19:42] <amblin> i know even
[19:42] <baron1984> it's the Firefox "wrapper"
[19:42] <amblin> flash is a steaming pile
[19:43] <baron1984> no other browser takes that much RAM
[19:43] <baron1984> even embedding Gecko
[19:43] <Jordan_U> baron1984, How is it Opera is using more RAM for me?
[19:43] <baron1984> are you on x86?
[19:44] <amblin> baron1984: you do have a point, i've had FF3 open for 5 hours, and 1023m virt, 468m res ;-)
[19:44] <baron1984> I know, it is the beast that cannot be fed
[19:44] <baron1984> Firefox OS
[19:44] <baron1984> :P
[19:45] <baron1984> it takes up more RAM than Windows 2000
[19:45] <Jordan_U> baron1984, But less than IE
[19:45] <baron1984> well, it may as well be an OS
[19:46] <baron1984> seems all people use the OS for is to bootstrap the browser and go to Myspace
[19:46] <baron1984> so Ubuntu is really just a formality
[19:46] <node357> I don't care how much RAM FF uses because I close it before doing anything else
[19:46] <baron1984> thats like saying "I don't care how bad Windows gets, I can always hammer on control alt delete
[19:47] <baron1984> if that thinking worked, everyone would use Windows
[19:47] <baron1984> and apologize for it
[19:47] <baron1984> if Microsoft created an application as ill behaved as Firefox 3, they would really have it coming
[19:48] <baron1984> seriously, IE is getting better, and Firefox is degenerating into a cesspool of bugs and memory leaks
[19:49] <baron1984> there are a few, very choice reasons why Firefox is popular, and they're on very thin ice
[19:51] <baron1984> 1. It's not Microsoft 2. It has extensions (IE does too) 3. It conforms to W3C standards (IE 8 is pretty good about that) and 4. People have come to view IE as a security threat, even though it's actually more secure than Firefox on Windows now
[19:51] <baron1984> and the most horrible part about that is that Mozilla could use protected mode if they really cared about their users safety
[19:52] <baron1984> Thats why I honestly hope Epiphany is something more than an afterthought in Intrepid, because it's a horrible thing to overlook
[19:52] <baron1984> there is a certain beauty in the KISS principle
[19:54] <baron1984> I should probably write an article about that
[19:54] <baron1984> sort of as an open letter
[20:18] <pheeror> baron1984: and by the way ... firefox 3 is _way_ better than ff2 (:
[20:19] <baron1984> meh, your system
[20:20] <baron1984> I'm not going to have their stuff on anything I own
[20:20] <baron1984> it's not even free software
[20:21] <pheeror> because of copyright for the name firefox and logo, come on ...
[20:21] <baron1984> their license says they can arbitrarily revoke my right to use it
[20:21] <baron1984> Ubuntu puts it in there anyway and enables them
[20:22] <baron1984> and what's real funny is that Ubuntu tells it not to give you the EULA
[20:22] <baron1984> because then more people would know what was happening here
[20:22] <pheeror> in which paragraph ?
[20:22] <baron1984> Section 2
[20:22] <baron1984> “2. TERMINATION. If you breach this Agreement your right to use the Product will terminate immediately and without notice, but all provisions of this Agreement except the License Grant (Paragraph 1) will survive termination and continue in effect. Upon termination, you must destroy all copies of the Product”
[20:23] <baron1984> that sounds like freedom to me
[20:23] <baron1984> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/legal/eula/firefox-en.html
[20:24] <baron1984> It's a pretty slippery slope, I can understand Ubuntu giving you proprietary software that there's just no easy way to avoid
[20:24] <pheeror> pfff
[20:24] <baron1984> but there are dozens of other web browsers
[20:25] <baron1984> They could even compile it themselves without that crap in it, and be just fine
[20:29] <baron1984> what is the crap that they'd leave out? The name, the crash reporter, and the artwork.
[20:29] <baron1984> Debian does it
[20:33] <baron1984> I just hope Epiphany Webkit is in the next Ubuntu
[20:33] <baron1984> it should be if it's in Debian Testing, right?
[20:34] <baron1984> I still don't see a package for it in Intrepid
[20:49] <lastent> is there a build for intrepid?
[21:25] <geser> baron1984: what's the package name?
[21:28] <Laney> geser: epiphany-webkit, source package epiphany-browser
[21:28] <Laney> We're not in sync with Debian on it
[21:32] <geser> * The webkit variant is not built for now since it's not juged good enough
[21:32] <geser>     to compete with the gecko one yet and not worth promoting webkit.
[21:32] <geser>     The package could be maintained to universe as a different source for now.
[21:32] <geser> from the changelog for 2.20.2-1ubuntu1
[21:33] <geser> libwebkit-dev is still in universe in intrepid
[21:34] <geser> if the situation has changed and webkit got moved to main we could have a epiphany-webkit package