[11:38] <kwwii> hrm, where is conn when you need him
[13:02] <kwwii> psyke83: so, there is a small problem with the human gtkrc for hardy
[13:03] <psyke83> kwwii, what's wrong?
[13:03] <kwwii> psyke83: basically, they say that for updates the changes should be as minor as possible
[13:04] <kwwii> doing a diff between the old and the new version the changes are pretty major
[13:04] <kwwii> I tried to explain it to them, we'll see what happens
[13:05] <kwwii> but it might be necessary to make the change as small as possible (there are a few non-critical changes like the animation stuff) I guess
[13:07] <psyke83> kwwii, right, I understand. Remember when I made Human color-chooser compatible? I based it on Human but had to hack a lot of things to emulate the old Human theme, because it was actually using three different orange colours (the metacity, selected bg color and the orange highlight for buttons and progressbars etc.). Unfortunately this broke Banshee as they use custom widgets
[13:08] <psyke83> I decided to rebase a lot of code on Human-Murrine and it worked better... that's why there's so much different code
[13:08] <kwwii> psyke83: right, I actually spent an hour or so figuring out exactly what you did :p
[13:08] <psyke83> kwwii, did you find problems when using the theme yourself?
[13:08] <kwwii> they started firing off questions as to whether this and that was really needed ;-)
[13:08] <kwwii> psyke83: nope, it seems to work fine for me
[13:09] <psyke83> jeez man, I feel bad for putting you through that now ;)
[13:09] <kwwii> hehe, I should be responsible for the work I do, probably just better that way :D
[13:10] <psyke83> the point was to fix bug 237261, did you mention it?
[13:10] <kwwii> yes, that was how I tried to fend them off the first time
[13:10] <kwwii> the bug is complicated to read in itself
[13:11] <kwwii> and then to explain what parts for which release, confusing
[13:11] <psyke83> basically, banshee uses some weird custom widgets that get misidentified by the Human theme
[13:12] <kwwii> right
[13:12] <psyke83> well, I can try looking over the code again and try to fix this problem with minimal changes (though the new version is actually less hacky and better, since it's based on Human-Murrine which I've been giving a lot more attention to)
[13:12] <kwwii> wait for now, I think my explanation might just get it through
[13:13] <kwwii> but don't hate me if I come back asking :-)
[13:13] <psyke83> ok, hehe
[13:13] <psyke83> I'm the one that volunteered to fix this bug, it should be me getting some flak too ;)
[13:13] <kwwii> btw, do you think that the retro murrine for intrepid would be the best place to start for the dark theme?
[13:14] <psyke83> kwwii, absolutely, but it needs a tiny change
[13:14] <kwwii> what's that?
[13:14] <psyke83> you remember when we had the metacity color problem in gnome-appearance-preferences?
[13:15] <kwwii> yepp
[13:16] <psyke83> look at line 54 of the gtkrc, the bg[SELECTED] line. That sets the colour to the "caramel" used for metacity
[13:16] <kwwii> kinda funky that the app which does the appearence settings doesn't appear right
[13:16] <psyke83> it mixes the fg colour and selected bg colour by 25% to get the effect - that will mess up your theme's metacity
[13:17] <psyke83> so, just set it to: bg[SELECTED] = @selected_bg_color
[13:17] <kwwii> ahhh, right, I see it
[13:17] <kwwii> thanks for the tip
[13:18] <psyke83> if you "pkill metacity" with the retro theme you'll see the change - the metacity border will look bright orange or something
[13:18] <psyke83> I think that's the only change you need to make
[13:19] <kwwii> hrm, that makes the window deco in the preview darker, but the window deco itself stays lighter
[13:20] <psyke83> ah, one sec
[13:20] <kwwii> well, we need a new metacity theme too anyway
[13:20] <psyke83> also comment the line 259 (the only entry in "metacity-frame")
[13:21] <psyke83> hmm, I also lightened the checkmarks, that's unnecessary for a dark theme... will I just send the gtkrc with the unnecessary stuff removed?
[13:24] <kwwii> sure, if you have the time it would be greta
[13:24] <kwwii> erm, great
[13:27] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/current.png shows the colors I was thinking of with the retro theme as is
[13:28] <kwwii> probably make the page bg as little off-white though
[13:28] <psyke83> and what about the selected bg orange?
[13:29] <kwwii> it will probably need to be turned down a bit to a more brown tone, it's been really hard to find exactly the right color
[13:31] <psyke83> what about something like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20080531/c29553ff/attachment-0001.png
[13:31] <kwwii> I am not happy with how the selected bg color appears in the menu selection...another thing I was playing with changing
[13:31] <psyke83> kwwii, I also lightened the selected bg for menus as it was far too strong with the retro colours, I'll remove that too
[13:32] <kwwii> the thing is that we still have orange icons, so we do need to accomodate for that
[13:32] <kwwii> that screenshot seems to need a bit more contrast, I think
[13:32] <kwwii> at least on my laptop lcd is looks a little muddy
[13:33] <elkbuntu> that's really hard to read...
[13:35] <psyke83> kwwii, sorry, I meant just the selected bg colour in that screenshot
[13:35] <psyke83> the "coffee"... the bg is too light
[13:36] <psyke83> kwwii, did you look at the new UbuntuStudio theme?
[13:36] <psyke83> let me show you the new menus, you might like... one sec
[13:37] <kwwii> psyke83: nope, haven't seen it yet
[13:37] <psyke83> http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-2.png
[13:38] <psyke83> notice the selected menubar button matches the menu background
[13:38] <kwwii> yeah, that does look pretty nifty
[13:39] <kwwii> I wish that the widgets had the same amount of rounding though
[13:39] <kwwii> the progress bar and the menu highlight need a bit more rounding, if you ask me (which you didn't!)
[13:44] <psyke83> you mean menu item highlight?
[13:44] <kwwii> yepp
[13:44] <psyke83> the progress bar can't be rounded with the murrine engine, unfortunately
[13:45] <kwwii> I think I should learn how to write theme engines
[13:53] <psyke83> heh
[13:54] <psyke83> nearly finished
[13:54] <psyke83> do you want to try darkening the menubar (like UbuntuStudio)?
[14:07] <kwwii> yes, I think it should be dark as well
[14:08] <elkbuntu> please tell me you guys are not seriously considering this for default :-/
[14:10] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: That is up to he powers that be.
[14:11] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, i hope they find it equally impossible to read as i do then
[14:11] <_MMA_> Ahh... opinions. :)
[14:11] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, ahh, deteriorating eyesight
[14:12]  * _MMA_ hands Melissa a screen-reader and on of many high-contrast themes.
[14:12] <_MMA_> s/on/one
[14:13] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, not that bad yet, but if a 26yrold with minor eyesight issues has problems, i fear for anyone older or worse off
[14:14] <psyke83> elkbuntu, what part is difficult to read?
[14:14] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Sure, but constantly catering to the minority or people who *might* not like a style stifles progress and creativity.
[14:15] <elkbuntu> psyke83, swaping between the white text and almost_the_same_the_background colours and lines and so forth
[14:16] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, using something that requires the average 50yrold to need help to change a theme isnt a good impression to create
[14:16] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, just as candy should never be a staple, gloss should never be more favoured than usability
[14:16] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Then that can switch to one of the high-contrast themes Ubuntu ships.
[14:17] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, with that theme, if i didnt know ubuntu, i wouldnt be able to *find* how to change it
[14:17] <elkbuntu> it's *that* hard for me to read
[14:17] <_MMA_> That's the breaks then.
[14:18] <_MMA_> Catering to everyone will *never* work.
[14:18] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, that's a really really really dangerous attitude to have
[14:18] <psyke83> even though I'm working on this dark theme, I also agree with elkbuntu  ;)
[14:18] <_MMA_> Ok. :)
[14:19] <_MMA_> Danger in my middle name. ;)
[14:19] <psyke83> I thought it was "music" :P
[14:19] <_MMA_> ;)
[14:23] <psyke83> kwwii: I sent the gtkrc via email, here's a screenshot: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-3.png
[14:23] <_MMA_> Trying to cater to *everyone* will only yield the most generic crap you can think of. What appeals to 20-somethings will not necessarily go over well with grandmothers. Going for a constant middle-ground is one thing that will also hinder linux on the desktop adoption. Define a audience. Go for them. If people outside of that dig what you do, great.
[14:23] <psyke83> all the tweaks needed for the light theme were removed (like menu item shading etc)
[14:24] <kwwii> sorry, had to make my son lunch...back now
[14:24] <psyke83> the menu item roundness matches the rest of the theme, and I plagiarized most of Cory's theme style ;)
[14:25] <_MMA_> psyke83: Which reminds me, once out darker on is more settled (Im on the fence about the combined GTK/Metacity) we should do up the light version.
[14:26] <psyke83> elkbuntu, the Human-Murrine and Human-Clearlooks themes will still be available... if there is a major accessibility issue for the dark theme (when it's final), then perhaps some concessions will be made, who knows
[14:26] <psyke83> _MMA_, ok
[14:26] <kwwii> _MMA_: I plan on putting in a legacy-human theme as well
[14:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: \m/
[14:27] <kwwii> but you'll have to install that extra
[14:27] <kwwii> we will also have a legacy-murrine theme by default
[14:27] <psyke83> kwwii, how will you have a legacy-human theme if the ubuntulooks engine is getting axed?
[14:28] <psyke83> oops I need to fix something very small in the gtkrc, will send an update
[14:28] <kwwii> psyke83: it will be installable in main, but not on the CDs or in the default selection
[14:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: There's not a couple of k on the disk for it?
[14:30] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, im not talking about preference, im talking about usability. that theme would probably require assistive technology that i otherwise have not needed for any other system ever. I'll be quite disappointed if ubuntu tries to be so cutting edge that I become visually impaired from using a default system.
[14:31] <kwwii> _MMA_: dude, getting rid of ubuntulooks is a good thing
[14:32] <kwwii> and in the end we might just have to go back to it anyway :p
[14:32] <psyke83> kwwii, sent the update (to fix mismatched gnome-panel shading)
[14:32] <kwwii> elkbuntu: the screen you saw is not the one we are talking about
[14:32] <kwwii> psyke83: cool, I'll check it out
[14:33] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: Who's "﻿usability"? ﻿Usability depends on the audience to a massive degree. You are a corner case for 20-somethings. And I'm sure you know, corner-cases dont always matter around what we do in Ubuntu.
[14:33] <psyke83> kwwii, don't be surprised when the metacity looks awful, that's the real colours it should be using. The hacks are removed that made it "caramel" since they would interfere with a new metacity theme
[14:34] <elkbuntu> kwwii, im not sure we're arguing about any particular screen, rather the philosophy of 'screw you and all who dont have 20:20 eyesight' attitude.
[14:36] <_MMA_> elkbuntu: It's actually a much larger "We need to cater to *everyone*" thing. ;)
[14:37] <psyke83> I think this is an issue that needs serious consideration. I would term it more like: "we need to alienate the least amount of people in our key demographic" ;)
[14:38] <_MMA_> psyke83: "﻿our key demographic" Which is? :)
[14:38] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, Human Beings
[14:38] <elkbuntu> _MMA_, if the strapline means *anything*
[14:38] <_MMA_> No. That doesnt work.
[14:39] <elkbuntu> false advertising ftw then
[14:39] <kwwii> psyke83: excellent, thanks
[14:39] <psyke83> np
[14:40] <kwwii> elkbuntu: there is no way to make artwork which everyone likes
[14:40] <_MMA_> ﻿elkbuntu: Like I said. That only yields generic, cater to the lowest common denominator crap that stifles innovation. It's a pretty big problem around our entire community.
[14:40] <psyke83> kwwii, you may want to mention to the higher-ups that firefox is terribly non-compliant with dark themes, though. There are several issues that need to be looked at
[14:41] <kwwii> psyke83: I have already started a discussion with the firefox maintainer
[14:41] <psyke83> cool
[14:41] <elkbuntu> kwwii, aesthetic preference != usability preference. I'm talking the latter.
[14:42] <elkbuntu> kwwii, you've met me. you know i dont wear glasses. is it right that someone as common as i should be alienated by a theme?
[14:43] <kwwii> elkbuntu: no, and the theme will not be one which is really hard to read :-)
[14:44] <elkbuntu> kwwii, i know you well enough to know *you* wouldnt do something like that.
[14:45] <kwwii> well, the whole dark theme idea pretty much came from me, so you might hate me in the end anyway :p
[14:45] <_MMA_> kwwii: pfftt... You stole it from me.
[14:45] <_MMA_> :P
[14:45] <elkbuntu> kwwii, dark themes are not the problem. i've used dark themes before. the contrast is what's messing me up
[14:46] <elkbuntu> the bright white glares out all the nearly-the-same-as-the-background stuff
[14:46] <psyke83> _MMA_, totally agreed, there's a lot of plagiarism going on here and it's totally not cool... :P
[14:47] <_MMA_> hehe
[14:52] <_MMA_> My desktop: http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1289/humandarkfw8.png It's so l33t.
[15:08] <kwwii> _MMA_: I like the consistent use of black, very artsy
[15:09] <_MMA_> kwwii: Yes. I was going for a "creature of the night" sorta thing.
[15:10] <_MMA_> A desktop for vampires thing.
[15:12] <kwwii> :p
[15:33] <kwwii> psyke83: the dark menubar, although nice, would need to be accounted for in the metacity inactive window decoration
[15:35] <kwwii> I guess I should stop working on gtkrc and start working on the metacity theme
[15:35] <psyke83> kwwii, actually you can put a tweak in the gtkrc to keep it consistent with the menubar
[15:36] <psyke83> *it = metacity's inactive window
[15:38] <kwwii> psyke83: erm, what is the tweak? might try it out (although we need a new metacity theme anyway)
[15:38] <psyke83> just a sec
[15:40] <psyke83> kwwii, in section "metacity-frame", insert: bg[NORMAL]= shade (0.85, @bg_color)
[15:41] <psyke83> line 255 or so
[15:43] <psyke83> put a comment there to remind you that it has to be the same as the entries in the sections "murrine-menubar" and "panel" (I've commented those already)
[15:47] <kwwii> psyke83: hrm, that didn't seem to change anything...not sure whether metacity has to be restarted or such
[15:49] <kwwii> nope, that didn't seem to do the anything noticable
[15:49] <kwwii> anyway, looking into metacity now, probably be the best solution in the long run
[15:53] <psyke83> kwwii, no that should fix it
[15:53] <psyke83> you need to restart metacity
[15:54] <psyke83> pkill metacity (it's a bug in gnome-appearances-preferences, doesn't refresh metacity properly)
[15:55] <psyke83> it's better to put that line in, because the menubar, panel and metacity active bg always need to be in sync
[15:55] <psyke83> the gtkrc is the best place to keep them in sync
[15:55] <psyke83> sorry normal bg
[15:58] <psyke83> kwwii: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-2.png
[16:10] <kwwii> lol, I was using compiz :p
[16:10] <_MMA_> Tard
[16:10] <kwwii> much nicer now
[16:11] <kwwii> gotta take my kid to basketball practice, bbl
[19:23] <dashua_> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_13.1213726786.png
[19:24] <dashua_> Here's my dark Hardy theme.  Fairly usable and I'm not a big fan of dark themes either.
[19:27] <psyke83> dashua_, the glass effect is way too over the top ;)
[19:27] <psyke83> you can't even discern the radiobutton or checkmarks properly
[19:28] <dashua_> Yeah, it's a bit aggressive.
[19:28] <dashua_> Human Murrine is still my favorite
[19:29] <pwnguin> i have to ask
[19:29] <pwnguin> why would you want to imitate vista?
[19:29] <_MMA_> dashua_: I like the colors. Hits me like cell-shaded animation.
[19:30] <dashua_> If Vista looked this good, I wouldn't be using Ubuntu =/
[19:30] <pwnguin> _MMA_: i'd been thinking about a compiz theme do do that kinda stuff
[19:30] <pwnguin> thick outlines on windows
[19:32] <dashua_> psyke83: This is the Compiz Murrina theme with some color changes.
[19:32] <psyke83> I actually dislike 90% of Murrine themes because of the glass effect, which is why I lowered the hilight_ratio for Human Murrine. The new SVN version of Murrine is even better, it allows you to change the gradient shades for widgets
[19:32] <pwnguin> I've been trying out the murrine based netbook theme
[19:33] <dashua_> psyke83: I'm using Revision 37
[19:33] <dashua_> Think that is the latest.  Haven't updated in a while.
[19:34] <dashua_> Human-Murrine is very subtle and professional.
[19:36] <dashua_> Are you going to be using RGBA transparency effects with the latest murrine engine?
[19:36] <_MMA_> Not by default.
[19:37] <dashua_> I think it does gnome-system monitor by default.
[19:37] <psyke83> got a link for Compiz Murrina (and what does Compiz have to do with a gtk theme?) ?
[19:37] <dashua_> They're making a live Compiz .iso
[19:38] <dashua_> This is one of the developers themes,
[19:39] <psyke83> dashua_, well, it's enabled in the gtkrc files at the moment, but it's probably going to need testing
[19:40] <dashua_> psyke83: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Compiz-Fusion+Dark+Live+CD+Murrina?content=78513
[19:41] <dashua_> This new color scheme plays nice with Oo.  Most dark themes do not display the icons.
[19:42] <psyke83> _MMA_, you better disable it in your gtkrc before uploading it, then
[19:42] <psyke83> ah
[19:43] <_MMA_> psyke83: Its been uploaded already. Its fine now for testing but should be turned off for release.
[19:45] <psyke83> Ken's theme displays icons in OO.o fine...
[19:45] <psyke83> _MMA_, are you sure? I thought it would be enabled as per the spit-and-polish spec
[19:45] <psyke83> gnome-session got an update to enable RGBA effects today, for example
[19:47] <_MMA_> psyke83: Last I heard it wouldn't be on by default at release. I guess it depends on how testing goes.