[00:00] <LaserJock> I tend to think the more important thing would be who did the testing
[00:01] <LaserJock> it's easy for us to automatically check age and number of acks
[00:01] <LaserJock> it's not so easy to judge if those acks are trustworthy
[00:01] <sbeattie> Is it? Are they formatted consistently?
[00:01] <LaserJock> sbeattie: when we track via qa.u.c it will be ;-)
[00:02] <sbeattie> lol
[00:02] <LaserJock> right now it's not totally easy, but grepping for +1, "worked for me" would give you a lot
[00:04] <DktrKranz> is it "works for me" a sufficient guarantee?
[00:05] <sbeattie> Anyway, more feedback on what would make the SRU pages more useful or help in streamlining the process would be great.
[00:05] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: well, for lack of better formalization, yes
[00:05] <sbeattie> LaserJock: my reports rarely say those things, I think.
[00:05] <LaserJock> well, you used to see a lot more of those
[00:05] <LaserJock> that's what our original terminology was
[00:06] <LaserJock> "we need 2 'works for me's"
[00:06] <LaserJock> so people would just put "works for me"
[00:06] <LaserJock> that was before test cases as well
[00:06] <LaserJock> which reminds me
[00:06] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: an item for consideration needs to be formalizing test case formatting
[00:07] <LaserJock> if the format for test cases is consistent then we can pull them out programmatically
[00:07] <DktrKranz> and publish it in your tracker
[00:07] <sbeattie> LaserJock: heh, I noticed you haven't incorporated my changes to highlight bugs that don't have the standardized test cases.
[00:08] <sbeattie> (at least in the published pages)
[00:08] <sbeattie> DktrKranz: exactly.
[00:08] <LaserJock> sbeattie: yeah, my weekend didn't go as planned
[00:08] <LaserJock> sbeattie: hopefully this evening
[00:08] <DktrKranz> given that someone forgets about test cases (and /me needs to figure out how to test them), it will be of sure help
[00:09] <LaserJock> the goal for me with the tracker scripts
[00:09] <LaserJock> is to make it easy to see when something isn't conforming to policy
[00:09] <LaserJock> so then it's trivial to fix it
[00:09] <sbeattie> LaserJock: well, I didn't get to writing the code to pull them out and display them this weekend, either.
[00:10] <LaserJock> sbeattie: slackers!
[00:10] <DktrKranz> LaserJock, would it be too much complex to scan for "ACK" text posted by a member of motu-sru?
[00:10] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: I was thinking about that
[00:10] <LaserJock> I'm going to try to do it
[00:11] <LaserJock> hopefully it won't have to many bas results
[00:11] <LaserJock> *bad
[00:11] <LaserJock> generally I think we've been pretty consistent with using ACK
[00:11] <DktrKranz> usually, "ack from motu-sru" is posted
[00:11] <LaserJock> that was going to go into my QA page
[00:12] <LaserJock> as well as bugs with SRU in the title but no MOTU SRU subscribed
[00:12] <LaserJock> and probably component mismatch (sub'ing MOTU SRU for Main package)
[00:12] <LaserJock> but those require quite a bit more Launchpad data
[00:13] <LaserJock> so I haven't done them yet
[00:13] <LaserJock> sbeattie: what do you think of ^^
[00:14] <sbeattie> We could do something like that.
[00:14]  * LaserJock runs to the TODO file
[00:15] <sbeattie> main SRU doesn't do anything as formalized like that in our comments, we tend to describe what we did.
[00:15] <DktrKranz> LaserJock, think about this case: https://bugs.staging.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/scons/+bug/226783
[00:15] <DktrKranz> user nominate for the release, but no task opened
[00:16] <DktrKranz> I've seen some of them, they should be addressed too.
[00:16] <LaserJock> sbeattie: describe?
[00:16] <LaserJock> well, we can't get nominations
[00:16] <DktrKranz> no?
[00:16] <LaserJock> but what we can do is flag SRU bugs that don't have any release tasks
[00:17] <LaserJock> no, I don't think there's a programmatic way to do that, other than maybe some screenscraping
[00:17] <LaserJock> and I'd really like to avoid doing that
[00:17] <DktrKranz> I agree
[00:17] <sbeattie> LaserJock: here's an example https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/klibc/+bug/235282/comments/7
[00:18] <sbeattie> We do get works for me reports as well.
[00:18] <LaserJock> sbeattie: right, but we're talking about MOTU SRU acks
[00:18] <LaserJock> though that sort of comment is why we need to use an iso-tracker like interface
[00:19] <LaserJock> it's not always clear whether somebody is verifying or not
[00:19] <LaserJock> like "well, I think it works for me"
[00:19] <DktrKranz> I usually do something like https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/rpy/+bug/128180/comments/35
[00:20] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: we already have data on tasks, so I think having a list of SRU bugs without any stable release tasks would catch a lot of your nominated-but-not-accepted bugs
[00:20] <DktrKranz> LaserJock, this will catch almost everything
[00:21] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: I'll make that list tonight I think
[00:21] <DktrKranz> good
[00:25] <LaserJock> alright, well I've got to run
[00:25] <LaserJock> DktrKranz: thanks for the input
[00:25] <DktrKranz> well, I think I'm the only person in Europe still awake, so I'm moving to bed now :)
[00:26] <DktrKranz> LaserJock, my pleasure
[00:26] <DktrKranz> thanks guys for this meeting
[00:27] <DktrKranz> keep up the good work and keep ROCKing
[07:59] <leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
[12:13] <persia> Is the community council meeting not happening this week?
[12:14] <lifeless> !schedule
[12:14] <lifeless> ubottu: die die die
[12:14] <lifeless> ubottu: Factoid die die die not found
[12:16] <sbc> persia: Guess not. :(
[12:17] <persia> Strange.  It is the third tuesday of the month.
[12:22] <sbc> persia: Yes. On the other hand the wiki says next meeting is 3 June (two weeks ago!). The CC meetings might not be recieving top priority?
[14:46] <leoquant> hmm: The next meeting is scheduled for [WWW] June 17th 2008, 18:00 UTC and and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting
[14:47] <leoquant> (ref. to the community council meeting)
[14:47] <Hobbsee> jussi01: looks like ubottu hasn't reloaded since you restarted the bot.
[14:47] <persia> leoquant: Which meeting?
[14:47] <Hobbsee> (the topic)
[14:48] <Hobbsee> @no
[14:48] <Hobbsee> @now
[14:48] <Hobbsee> unless we have 2 bugs for hugs meetings in a few days.
[14:54] <persia> Hobbsee: Bugs for Hugs days are often Tuesdays and Thursdays: all day events, but not here.
[14:54] <Hobbsee> ahh
[15:59]  * kirkland o/
[15:59] <sommer_> hey all
[16:00] <nijaba> o/
[16:01] <mathiaz> hello server folks !
[16:01] <kirkland> mathiaz: howdy
[16:02] <jdstrand> o/
[16:02] <ScottK> Let's start already ....
[16:02] <mathiaz> let's get started then
[16:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:03] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:03] <mathiaz> Last week's meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080610
[16:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] openldap 2.4 SRU
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  openldap 2.4 SRU
[16:04] <mathiaz> openldap 2.4.9 has been uploaded and accepted into -proposed
[16:04] <mathiaz> next step is to get 2.4.10 into hardy as well
[16:04] <mathiaz> but we'd have to wait for 2.4.10 to be uploaded in intrepid first
[16:06] <mathiaz> I don't know when this will be done - I haven't seen anything on the debian front
[16:06] <mathiaz> so we may wanna upload 2.4.10 directly
[16:06] <mathiaz> there is some work been done on the cn=config migration - it may land at the same time
[16:07] <mathiaz> that's all I have for the openldap sru
[16:07] <ScottK> I'd suggest don't sweat 2.4.10 until 2.4.9 is in hardy-updates.
[16:07] <ScottK> Maybe Debian gets it done in the mean time.
[16:07] <mathiaz> ScottK: for hardy - I aggree
[16:07]  * sommer_ can report that 2.4.9 works fine
[16:07] <ScottK> For Intrepid there is no rush.
[16:07] <mathiaz> but we have some spec related to openldap for intrepid
[16:07] <zul> mathiaz: I wouldnt rush with 2.4.10 since I think it has like 5 fixes
[16:07] <zul> (for hardy)
[16:08] <mathiaz> zul: right - I don't think we should rush either
[16:08] <nijaba> zul: any reported bug that would match thise 5 fixes in 2.4.10?
[16:08] <ScottK> I don't think the spec stuff needs 2.4.10
[16:08] <zul> 3 of those fixes have been backported anways
[16:08] <zul> nijaba: not yet :)
[16:08] <nijaba> +1 on let's wait, then
[16:09] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - anyway we have to get 2.4.10 in intrepid first
[16:09] <mathiaz> the other interesting bit is that 2.4.11 will probably have the nss ldapd backend available
[16:09] <zul> mathiaz: debian ok to the changes I have only seen one or two about it
[16:10] <mathiaz> it has been commited in upstream cvs - so it should be available in the contrib/ directory in 2.4.11
[16:10] <nijaba> mathiaz: yes, I think that is the one we should target for intrepid
[16:10] <zul> dont forget to enable the test suite for intrepid as well :)
[16:11] <mathiaz> zul: right - :)
[16:11] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ebox and Ubuntu centralize server administrator spec
[16:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ebox and Ubuntu centralize server administrator spec
[16:12] <mathiaz> so I was supposed to invite a bunch of people to discuss this
[16:12] <mathiaz> and I haven't done so
[16:12] <nealmcb> from what little I know it seems that getting folks testing the cn=config migration early would help
[16:12] <mathiaz> nxvl sent me an email he wouldn't make it for the meeting
[16:12] <mathiaz> he's been looking into the different suggestions (augeas, etc...)
[16:13] <nijaba> mathiaz: did you have a look at augeas?  it looks likes it could be a great backend
[16:13]  * nijaba realizes the colision
[16:13] <nealmcb> still seems worthwhile getting the folks together to compare notes - next week?
[16:13] <mathiaz> nijaba: I just rapidly looked over the website - and indeed it looks promising
[16:14] <mathiaz> nealmcb: well - nxvl won't make it either
[16:14] <nealmcb> the backend is indeed pretty important - and getting a common backend with both rpm and apt- centric systems would be great
[16:14] <mathiaz> nealmcb: I think the big question we'd ask to the ebox developer is whether they consider switching to ageas
[16:14]  * nealmcb nods
[16:14]  * nijaba too
[16:14] <mathiaz> nealmcb: that could probably be done on their mailing lists
[16:14] <nealmcb> nxvl won't be here next week?
[16:15] <nijaba> mathiaz: and/or on #ebox
[16:15] <mathiaz> nealmcb: IFAIU he won't - he doesn't have access to IRC at this time of the day
[16:15] <ScottK> Could we have a link for augeas?
[16:15] <mathiaz> nealmcb: so I'll send an email to the ebox developer
[16:16] <mathiaz> ScottK: http://augeas.net/
[16:16] <zul> augeas.net
[16:16] <nealmcb> ScottK: see nxvl's spec....
[16:16] <nijaba> mathiaz: could we call another exceptional meeting a a time that works for nxvl on this subject?
[16:16] <mathiaz> and report back their answer
[16:16] <nealmcb> nijaba: +1
[16:16] <mathiaz> nijaba: that would be another option - but what would we discuss
[16:16] <mathiaz> nijaba: we can use his spec for more discussion
[16:16] <nijaba> mathiaz: ok
[16:17] <mathiaz> nijaba: we may not need a formal meeting
[16:17] <mathiaz> nijaba: I think we should ask him first
[16:17] <ScottK> I'd suggest getting something like that into Ubuntu for a release cycle on it's own before we try to integrate it.
[16:17] <nealmcb> I see this as the broader discussion of really making u-server easy to use, which I think implies a gui, and I'd like more than just a few folks there
[16:17] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send an email to the ebox devs about augeas
[16:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send an email to the ebox devs about augeas
[16:18] <nealmcb> ..easy to use for folks new to linux...
[16:18] <Brazen> seems more geared to a home server, than an smb server, though
[16:18] <nealmcb> and I think having more people behind fewer projects would be better....
[16:19] <mathiaz> nealmcb: right - that's a broad topic that could be discussed for hours, if not days
[16:19] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:19] <ScottK> Yes, but with volunteers, one doesn't always get the fewer projects choice.
[16:19] <nealmcb> easier to use at multiple levels - both home and enterprise
[16:19] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Spec status/review
[16:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status/review
[16:19] <nealmcb> ScottK: sure - I'm just hoping that more cross-fertilization will help
[16:20] <mathiaz> ScottK is around to ask what is targeted for intrepid
[16:20] <ScottK> Yes.
[16:20] <mathiaz> dendrobates: any news on this front ?
[16:20] <dendrobates> mathiaz: not yet.
[16:21] <ScottK> So far I've not gotten significant feedback on what I wrote up.  I don't know if anyone else is in a different position.
[16:21] <mathiaz> ScottK: what's the link to your spec ?
[16:22] <ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-flavors
[16:22] <mathiaz> I'm planning to write another post about intrepid spec
[16:22] <mathiaz> ScottK: I could include some of your specs there
[16:22] <mathiaz> ScottK: it may get a wider coverage
[16:22] <ScottK> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main and https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/amavisd-dkim are trivial to implement.  I just need approval.
[16:23] <ScottK> I'm more interested in dendrobates approval at this point.  For the first one manpower will be an issue, but without official backing, I'm not going to invest time in it.
[16:23] <mathiaz> ScottK: if they're trivial, why not just do it ?
[16:24] <mathiaz> ScottK: clamav-spamassin-in-main makes sense and was discussed at UDS
[16:25] <ScottK> Because if Canonical is going to move these packages into a supported catagory, I think I need a Canonical approval.
[16:25] <nealmcb> ScottK: could there be a useful connection between augeas or other gui config backends and the config part of your flavors stuff?
[16:25] <ScottK> For the MIR, I want to be able to say the rationale is approved spec.
[16:25] <ScottK> nealmcb: I can see where it would be potentially useful.
[16:26] <mathiaz> ScottK: hm - right - having a rationale that says the ubuntu server team thinks that spamassin is usefull for our mail server and thus should be included into main makes sense
[16:26] <ScottK> I think we all agree.  I just need dendrobates to flip the bit in Launchpad.
[16:28] <mathiaz> Ok - so is there any other specs that are worth mentioning ?
[16:28] <mathiaz> I've already got a list of kirkland's spec and some of them are alreay coming along
[16:28] <zul> not me
[16:28] <kirkland> mathiaz: yeah, i just started working on them, got something started
[16:28] <mathiaz> I'll also mention the ldap related spec
[16:28] <ScottK> mathiaz: I intend to hold off on work on those specs until they are approved.
[16:28] <kirkland> mathiaz: if they don't get approved, i'll stop working on them for intrepid
[16:28] <zul> Im still stuck on hardy ;)
[16:29] <kirkland> mathiaz: and the framework will be there for someone else to do in spare time for Intrepid + N
[16:29] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - at the least the spec are written
[16:30] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:30] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Proposed ubuntu server team PPA
[16:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Proposed ubuntu server team PPA
[16:30] <mathiaz> zul: is your PPA getting too small ?
[16:30] <ScottK> Is there a written proposal on this?
[16:31] <mathiaz> ScottK: this = ?
[16:31] <zul> mathiaz: well, its more of an offical/unoffical testing ppa that I can point users to rather than my ppa because mine is in a constant state of flux
[16:31] <ScottK> The proposed server team PPA.
[16:31] <zul> ScottK: no there isnt
[16:31] <ScottK> zul: Why not just make a new one called zul-stable.
[16:32] <mathiaz> zul: what would be the difference between yours and ubuntu-server ppa ?
[16:32] <nxvl> is it possible?
[16:32] <ScottK> Make a new Launchpad account.
[16:32] <zul> ScottK: because my ppa would not be a good place to ask users to try out bug fixes
[16:32] <nxvl> i think you can only use a ppa with your account name/team
[16:32] <Koon> nxvl: you can have a ppa for a team in LP
[16:32] <ScottK> So make a new one.
[16:32] <nxvl> Koon: that's what i said
[16:33] <mathiaz> zul: what would you put in ubuntu-server ppa and not in zul ppa ?
[16:33] <ScottK> Before proceeding, please make sure you aren't going to flood the rest of us with mail from LP as a result.
[16:33] <zul> mathiaz: widely tested bug fixes for samba for example
[16:33] <nealmcb> nxvl: welcome!  We were talking before about when to schedule an irc meeting about you and ebox and server gui stuff, but thought this was a bad time for you.
[16:33] <mathiaz> zul: isn't that what -proposed is for ?
[16:34] <zul> mathiaz: true but that can take a couple of days to get in
[16:34] <nxvl> nealmcb: it is
[16:34] <nxvl> nealmcb: but, i'm breaking some rules in here
[16:34] <nxvl> :D
[16:34] <nealmcb> :)
[16:34] <ScottK> zul: I feel pretty strongly that PPA shouldn't be used for anything other than transitional testing of packages sign the releases files aren't signed.
[16:34] <nxvl> nealmcb: there is no proxy or security system that can control a geek
[16:35] <mathiaz> zul: but in zul ppa there is broken stuff ?
[16:36] <zul> mathiaz: its not fine polished before it gets uploaded to -proposed, its more of a staging area
[16:36] <mathiaz> zul: currently I see one package in zul ppa
[16:36] <mathiaz> zul: I don't see what we would gain by adding a ubuntu-server ppa
[16:36] <zul> mathiaz: thats because I deleted alot the other day
[16:37] <zul> mathiaz: fine with me, just an idea to throw it out there
[16:37] <mathiaz> zul: well - I'm not convinced of having yet another place to publish packages
[16:37] <ScottK> zul: I'd suggest just make a new LP account and call it zul-working or some such and then point users at your current PPA once stuff is ready for testing.
[16:38] <zul> mathiaz: cool
[16:38] <mathiaz> ScottK: well - why would there be something not ready for testing in a ppa ?
[16:38] <mathiaz> you're not using ppa to make sure your packages build correctly
[16:38] <ScottK> I thought that was what he wanted a new PPA.
[16:39] <ScottK> mathiaz: Ask zul.
[16:39] <mathiaz> zul: next time you come accross a package that would require a new ppa, could you point it to me ?
[16:40] <zul> mathiaz: sure will do
[16:40] <mathiaz> zul: I'm interested to know when that would happen
[16:40] <mathiaz> zul: and for which reasons
[16:41] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] text browser on the server cd
[16:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  text browser on the server cd
[16:41] <mathiaz> there was a recent thread on -server and -devel about removing w3m from the standard seed
[16:41] <mathiaz> the consensus seemed that w3m should be removed from standard
[16:41] <nxvl> i find w3m really useful
[16:41] <ScottK> We've got plenty of room on the server CD, right?
[16:41]  * nijaba votes for moving it to the server seed
[16:42] <mathiaz> the question is wheter we should includ it in the server seed
[16:42]  * nxvl votes for it also
[16:42] <sommer_> it is useful for reading the html serverguide :)
[16:42] <mathiaz> or drop it from the server seed
[16:42] <nijaba> nealmcb: had some interesting questions thogh
[16:42] <zul> elinks is on the server cd isnt it?
[16:42]  * jdstrand thinks it should be on the cd
[16:42] <nijaba> elinks for example
[16:42] <mathiaz> so one question: should w3m be installed by default in ubuntu server ?
[16:43] <jdstrand> (or at least one text browser
[16:43] <jdstrand> )
[16:43] <kirkland> i believe that one of lynx/elinks/w3m should be in the default server install
[16:43] <nealmcb> choice, security issues, etc.  when the network is down it is nice to not be stuck on a system without a text browser
[16:43] <ScottK> It's there now.  We shouldn't remove it without a good reason.
[16:43]  * Brazen thinks it should not be on the server cd
[16:43]  * sommer_ concurs with kirkland
[16:43] <ScottK> Why not?
[16:43] <kirkland> i have stood at a console of a server, in a lab, and needed a web browser
[16:43] <nealmcb> last I saw, w3m seemed best, but I heard those arguments for elinks and want to know more
[16:43] <zul> the qa tests for the cd uses w3m btw
[16:44]  * nijaba agrees with kirkland
[16:44]  * jdstrand too
[16:44] <kirkland> i did a cursory look over lynx/elinks/w3m ... w3m seemed nicest... cools, keybindings, etc.
[16:44] <zul> nealmcb: elinks works with things like gmail
[16:44]  * nealmcb is amazed
[16:44] <kirkland> lynx is very, very basic.  elinks is a logical followon of lynx
[16:44] <Brazen> It's easy enough to install with aptitude
[16:44] <nxvl> yep
[16:44] <nxvl> +1 for this idea
[16:44] <kirkland> i definitely don't think we need more than one of those on the server by default, though
[16:44] <ScottK> Brazen: That assumes a network.
[16:45] <nxvl> we need a text browser and w3m is the coolest
[16:45] <Brazen> ScottK: but if you think it is necessary, you can install it beforehand
[16:45] <ScottK> Brazen: What benifit is there to removing it?
[16:45] <nealmcb> elinks depends on libperl, liblua, libruby
[16:45] <Brazen> nxvl: but you ask 3 different sysadmins which is coolest, and you get 3 different answers
[16:45] <Koon> so the use case is "I need a text web browser even if the network is down", then it should be left in
[16:45] <ScottK> Brazen: If I knew in advance when I wasn't going to have a network, then I'd probably do that.
[16:46] <ScottK> Yes, I can read html in vim, but prefer to avoid it.
[16:47] <nealmcb> do we have a sense for the security exposure and support costs of the different options?
[16:47] <Brazen> ScottK: maybe I'm just a little too paranoid on security, and used the mindset that a browser is about the second worst thing to have on a server next to an X stack
[16:47] <nxvl> Brazen: mm, you are right
[16:47] <mathiaz> allright - so it seems that we have consensus on installing w3m by default during a server install
[16:47] <nealmcb> what do other distros do?
[16:47] <ScottK> I disagree.  It's only a risk if it's running and that takes an admin.
[16:47] <kirkland> nealmcb: install all of X
[16:48] <nxvl> r give you the option to choose package on installation
[16:48] <kirkland> nealmcb: RHEL default server includes gnome + firefox
[16:48] <ScottK> mathiaz: We already install it by default.  There is clearly no consensus to stop doing that.
[16:48] <Brazen> as someone on the ml put it, on servers less is more
[16:48] <mathiaz> ScottK: right - we're already doing it -
[16:48] <Brazen> That's probably the biggest issue I have with RHEL
[16:48] <mathiaz> so the next step is to modify the seed and move w3m from -standard to -server
[16:49] <ScottK> Personally I'd put a web server well about a web browser in terms of security risk.
[16:49] <mathiaz> nijaba: has the -server seed already been created ?
[16:49] <nealmcb> kirkland: amazing....
[16:49] <Brazen> kinda hard to have a server without any services though
[16:49] <nijaba> mathiaz: I have made a proposal to cjwatson, wainting for his feedback
[16:49] <jdstrand> IIRC w3m is not actively maintained upstream (it's been at 0.5.1 since  dapper). elinks is, but has had 3 minor security vulnerabilites in the last 2 years
[16:49] <ScottK> Brazen: True, but there are lots of services that aren't web services.
[16:50] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok
[16:50] <nijaba> mathiaz: it includes more changes in the suported seed though
[16:50] <kirkland> jdstrand: that was one of the reasons that mdz asked about removing it entirely (non-active upstream)
[16:50] <Brazen> ScottK: I don't put a web service on any server that isn't a web server
[16:50] <jdstrand> Brazen: I think it is entirely approriate to have software that allows you to read the manual that is mentioned in motd
[16:51] <jdstrand> I'd pick elinks, but don't personally care either way
[16:51] <mathiaz> ok - so to sumarize: w3m can be removed from the -standard seed and moved to the -server once it's created
[16:51] <nijaba> yes
[16:51] <mdz> kirkland: actually, someone else brought that up; I didn't realize upstream was in question
[16:51] <kirkland> mdz: sorry, my bad ... /me goes check the thread
[16:51] <Brazen> jdstrand: I would expect to be able to read the manual on a workstation, or a testing server.
[16:51] <mdz> mathiaz: I think there are probably other packages which fall into this same category
[16:51] <mathiaz> jdstrand: that brings up the other question of text browser in main
[16:51] <mdz> I think the standard and minimal seeds should get a thorough review for things which are desktop- or server-specific
[16:51] <mathiaz> jdstrand: we should only have one
[16:51] <cjwatson> w3m has a pretty excellent feature set and doesn't seem to have very much wrong with it, maintained or not
[16:52] <nxvl> well, need to run i have a meeting in 5 minutes
[16:52] <nxvl> see you later!
[16:52]  * nijaba waves at nxvl
[16:52]  * kirkland changes attribution of "w3m upstream is dead" from mdz to "Steven Harms" ... sorry
[16:52] <mathiaz> mdz: agreed - I looked through the seeds during the hardy cycle and nothing stood out
[16:53] <mathiaz> mdz: but it wasn't with the split between desktop and server in mind
[16:53] <Brazen> with all that said, I prefer lynx (just not on a production server :D )
[16:53] <mathiaz> mdz: so once the -server seed is created we should defintely revisit this issue
[16:53] <mdz> mathiaz: really?  I see a few more things which are questionable
[16:53] <mdz> mathiaz: ntfs-3g isn't of much use on servers
[16:54] <nijaba> mathiaz: as said, I have done that for supported and was planning on doing it for standard/minimal as well
[16:54] <mathiaz> mdz: IIRC there was wpa-supplicant
[16:54] <sommer_> don't people share ntfs mounts through samba?
[16:54] <dendrobates> mdz:  I do as well.  We discussed having a review at UDS.
[16:54] <mdz> inputattach says it is for serial mice
[16:55] <mathiaz> dendrobates: right - has this happened ?
[16:55] <cjwatson> sommer_: that use doesn't require ntfs-3g
[16:55] <dendrobates> mathiaz: not yet.
[16:55] <sommer_> cjwatson: yep, spoke too soon :)
[16:55] <Keybuk> mdz: joysticks, isn't it?
[16:55] <cjwatson> sommer_: unless you mean that the NTFS filesystem is hosted on the server itself
[16:55] <Keybuk> oh, right, and legacy mice
[16:56] <Brazen> I think the default server install should be more akin to JEOS (but with full hardware support) and give an option to install a set of "useful administrative packages"
[16:56] <sommer_> cjwatson: that is what I was thinking, just remember some bugs about it a while back
[16:56] <cjwatson> serial mice> more common on servers than anywhere else, I'd expect; ancient hardware lying around in DCs
[16:56] <nealmcb> sommer_: and in that case folks can install ntfs support themselves...
[16:56] <Keybuk> cjwatson: but X servers? not so common
[16:56] <sommer_> nealmcb: sure, just thought I'd mention the use case
[16:56] <Brazen> Keybuk: good call
[16:57] <cjwatson> Keybuk: true
[16:57] <Keybuk> inputattach is basically for making them visible to the X server by making /dev/input/blah devices for them
[16:57] <Keybuk> I don't think gpm uses that
[16:57] <mdz> cjwatson: util-linux-locales is a bit pointless in minimal, since all its files are stripped out into langpacks
[16:57] <mdz> dendrobates: sorry, don't mean to hijack your meeting for a general seed review
[16:58] <cjwatson> mdz: yes, it should be in supported just so that it stays in main and gets langpack-stripped
[16:58] <mdz> cjwatson: and I agree with mathiaz that wpasupplicant ought to move
[16:58] <mathiaz> allright - so there seems to be a need for genered seed review - which won't be finished in the next 2 minutes
[16:58] <nealmcb> But I think Brazen's suggestion of e.g. a minimal server with a tasksel option for stuff like w3m might make sense
[16:59] <mathiaz> so let's move on
[16:59] <mathiaz> so is there any ACTION item on this point ?
[16:59] <nealmcb> have to figure out what would be in the "useful admin packages" section
[16:59] <cjwatson> nealmcb: the standard seed, clearly
[16:59] <mathiaz> it seems that we're waiting for the creation of the -server seed
[16:59] <cjwatson> (that's the obvious way to implement it right now and it's a trivial configuration change. I'm not saying I agree with it BTW)
[16:59] <ScottK> mathiaz: Add w3m to the server seed when created.
[17:00] <cjwatson> w3m (or generally a text browser) belongs in standard
[17:00] <mathiaz> and then we'll be able to move things around (w3m being amongst the first one)
[17:00] <cjwatson> IMO
[17:00] <cjwatson> I would want it in desktop too
[17:01] <mathiaz> hm - so the position of the server team is that we'd like to have w3m on server installs
[17:01] <dendrobates> mathiaz: yes, someone needs to review the seeds and report back to the group.
[17:01] <mathiaz> we're happy to have it in the -server seed - if the desktop team wants it also it could be move to the standard seed
[17:02] <mathiaz> that seems to be a broader question that may need to be discussed on -devel
[17:02] <cjwatson> mathiaz: by saying that it should be moved to the server seed, that is equivalent to saying that the desktop team doesn't want it
[17:02] <cjwatson> which I don't think this meeting is empowered to do ...
[17:02] <mathiaz> cjwatson: aggreed
[17:02]  * nealmcb forgets which seed it is in now....
[17:02] <ScottK> Prefix it all with "If removed from standard"
[17:02] <Keybuk> I don't think the desktop should have a text-based web browser
[17:02] <cjwatson> feel free to put it in server *as well* to assert that you guys want it anyway
[17:02] <Keybuk> (or a text-based e-mail client, irc client, etc.)
[17:03]  * Brazen high-fives Keybuk
[17:03] <mathiaz> so I'll send a reply to the email thread on -devel with the position of the server team
[17:04] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send a reply to the thread with the position of the server team
[17:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send a reply to the thread with the position of the server team
[17:05] <mathiaz> [ACTION] the seeds should be reviewed wrt to the creation of the server seeds
[17:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  the seeds should be reviewed wrt to the creation of the server seeds
[17:05] <ScottK> Who's action?
[17:05] <mathiaz> ScottK: I'm sure dendrobates will find someone
[17:06] <dendrobates> mathiaz: my action for now.
[17:06] <Keybuk> ScottK: ITYM "Whose action?"
[17:06] <mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates to review seeds wrt to the creation of the server seeds
[17:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to review seeds wrt to the creation of the server seeds
[17:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[17:06] <ScottK> Keybuk: Yes.
[17:07] <mathiaz> Anyone came with crazy ideas for Intrepid ?
[17:07]  * ScottK has spec'ed his crazy idea.
[17:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
[17:08] <mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
[17:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[17:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[17:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[17:08] <Brazen> in regards to Augeas: I just thought I would throw this out there, but would is it too far out there to say - use dpk-reconfigure as a configuration backend?
[17:08] <mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
[17:08]  * Brazen crap, too late
[17:09] <nealmcb> Brazen: it would be nice to have something usable on rpm systems also, but I don't know how much complexity that would add etc
[17:10] <nxvl> here again
[17:10] <nxvl> :D
[17:11] <nealmcb> nxvl: does it make sense to you to consider server config stuff next week? would this time work?  with dan and ebox also?
[17:11] <nxvl> nealmcb: nop
[17:11]  * nealmcb would prefer to also have skeptics like scottk there :)
[17:11] <nxvl> nealmcb: i have a lot of problems at this time of day
[17:11] <nxvl> need to run
[17:12] <mathiaz> ok - so same place, same time, next week
[17:12] <sommer_> mathiaz: I'm all for it
[17:13] <mathiaz> #stopmeeting
[17:13] <nealmcb> thanks all
[17:13] <nijaba> #endmeeting maybe ?
[17:13] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:13] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:16.
[17:13] <mathiaz> nijaba: thanks :)
[17:14] <sommer_> later on all
[17:14] <nealmcb> start/end  begin/stop :(
[17:14] <nijaba> Thanks for hosting, mathiaz
[17:15]  * nealmcb votes for #beginmeeting and #endmeeting, with #stopmeeting and ﻿#startmeeting for temporary adjournment :)
[17:17]  * nealmcb moves that we reconvene as the committee of the whole some day
[17:33] <juliux> @schedule berlin
[17:36] <juliux> hm no reginal board meeting today?
[17:36] <juliux> Seveas: ?
[17:36] <stgraber> at 18:00 UTC
[17:36] <juliux> stgraber: thxs
[17:36] <Seveas> juliux, fridge people tend to forget to put it on the fridge
[17:36] <Seveas> twice in a row now :/
[17:36] <Seveas> popey!
[17:37] <popey> Seveas!
[17:38] <HardDisk> yea
[17:38] <HardDisk> I'm disappointed about that.
[17:38] <Seveas> popey, see above, who do I need to slap?
[17:38] <HardDisk> I asked twice for the EMEA to be in the fridge calendar.
[17:38] <popey> me and/or boredandblogging
[17:38] <popey> and others :)
[17:39] <Seveas> popey, consider yourself slapped then
[17:39] <juliux> don't slap the new ubuntu-news-team
[17:39] <popey> my availability will be spradic
[17:39] <popey> this evening
[17:39] <popey> (wifes birthday)
[17:39] <Seveas> congrats!
[17:39] <juliux> popey: all the best to her
[17:39] <popey> thanks :)
[17:40] <HardDisk> Not meaning to butt in, but I assume then that the EMEA council has reviewed the applicants and checked out their wiki/launchpad pages?
[17:41] <popey> thats a rather rash assumption :)
[17:41] <HardDisk> haha
[17:42] <popey> gah, family arriving, must dash
[18:40] <juliux> \o/ ompaul ;)
[18:46] <_Lux> Good Evening all
[18:48] <riot_le> Evening _lux
[18:48] <juliux> hi _Lux
[18:48] <HardDisk> hey _Lux :)
[18:48] <HardDisk> guess it's you and me
[18:49] <_Lux> HardDisk: maybe
[18:49] <HardDisk> well being here anyway :)
[18:51] <riot_le> do you find a Mobile which belongs to you _lux?
[18:52] <nixternal> mdz: I am at work, but read the email via the archives....if you could just in case I don't respond prior, just give me a ping to highlight me...I am sitting at work building RPMs right now, so if I start mumbling about Yum repos, just ignore me :)
[18:52] <_Lux> riot_le: no, unfortunately not
[18:52] <_Lux> riot_le: still searching
[18:52] <_Lux> riot_le: maybe, I take a phone which can do nothing more then "phone" and catch an organizer ...
[18:53] <riot_le> i have 6 months left till i have to take a decision what i take after my SE K800
[18:53] <riot_le> no more features?
[18:53] <_Lux> riot_le: I don't have a contract, only prepaid
[18:53] <_Lux> riot_le: no more ...
[18:54] <_Lux> riot_le: everything I want, can be done via WLAN ...
[18:54] <juliux> _Lux: the n800 or n810 are realy cool linux pdas;)
[18:54] <riot_le> but had no GSM @juliux
[18:54] <juliux> wlan is enough
[18:54] <_Lux> riot_le: yes, I know ... The story in Bochum, Germany
[18:54] <HardDisk> juliux, openmoko :)
[18:54] <juliux> HardDisk: if it comes.......
[18:54] <_Lux> HardDisk: If it comes
[18:54] <HardDisk> juliux, well if google buys it
[18:55] <riot_le> what want google do with openmoko, its a mobile which is not uptodate
[18:56] <_Lux> Ju: yes, I know ... The story in Bochum, Germany with Nokia was a mess
[18:56] <_Lux> ment Julius: (sorry)
[18:56] <juliux> _Lux: yes but i had my n800 befor that;9
[18:56] <_Lux> riot_le: last not least, the software will be ready for end users some time in 2009 ...
[18:57] <HardDisk> I have a P1, love it, never did nokia to be honest..
[18:57] <_Lux> juliux: :-)
[18:57] <_Lux> juliux: Lucky you ;-)
[18:57] <_Lux> HardDisk: I have a P910i
[18:57] <HardDisk> damn, McDuck one of my supporters :/
[18:57] <HardDisk> yea P910 is awesome had that before
[18:58] <_Lux> HardDisk: Maybe I take the X... (version after P1)
[18:58] <HardDisk> cool.
[18:59] <riot_le> maybe Googles Android has much better chances to establish Linux Smartphones at the Market
[19:00] <_Lux> riot_le: Linux would be best
[19:00] <_Lux> HardDisk: http://www.xonio.com/ii/174210931_c4110b9b69.jpg
[19:00] <riot_le> Motorola has also Linux Phones in their Repertoire
[19:01] <_Lux> riot_le: linux and closed ...
[19:01] <HardDisk> motorola no thank you very much. :)
[19:01] <PriceChild> @now
[19:01] <riot_le> aren't their no HowTos in WWW to open it?
[19:02] <HardDisk> no EMEA meeting first?
[19:02] <PriceChild> HardDisk: bugs for hugs is an entire day of stuff
[19:02] <juliux> the frigde is not up to date
[19:02] <juliux> so ubottu is not up to date
[19:02] <PriceChild> Seveas: popey: is it now?
[19:03] <Seveas> it is
[19:03] <_Lux> PriceChild: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[19:03] <juliux> PriceChild: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA says 18:00 utc;)
[19:03]  * stgraber waves
[19:03] <Seveas> sorry, was a bit occupied
[19:03] <HardDisk> I concur.
[19:03]  * juliux waves to Seveas and stgraber 
[19:03] <PriceChild> Seveas: how dare you
[19:03] <Seveas> how many are we today?
[19:03] <HardDisk> it's time to be ubuntufied :)
[19:03] <HardDisk> I'm present, Seveas
[19:03] <Seveas> HardDisk, I meant board members
[19:03] <HardDisk> ah.
[19:03] <Seveas> popey, and phanatic canceled
[19:03] <juliux> Seveas: popey has no time
[19:03] <Seveas> that leaves just 3
[19:04] <juliux> mark is not online
[19:04] <Seveas> (since forumsmatthew seems to be missing)
[19:04] <PriceChild> Is that enough? :/
[19:04] <Seveas> I'm rather uncomfortable with having just 3
[19:04] <PriceChild> 8 in total
[19:05] <Seveas> 7
[19:05] <PriceChild> whoops, read the cc on launchpad as a member
[19:05] <Seveas> (CC is a member)
[19:05] <PriceChild> I feel we should have at least half of us here :/
[19:05] <Seveas> I suggest postponing to next week
[19:06] <juliux> Seveas: are 3 enough for a quorum?
[19:06] <Seveas> and also doing meetings once every two weeks, there's not enough work to have a meeting weekly :)
[19:06] <PriceChild> Shall we give it 5-10 minutes to see if forumsmatthew appears?
[19:06] <Seveas> juliux, no
[19:06] <juliux> ok
[19:06] <HardDisk> hey jY :)
[19:06] <Seveas> PriceChild, iirc forumsmatthew couldn't make today
[19:06] <PriceChild> or am I out of the loop?
[19:06] <jY> HardDisk, hello
[19:06] <PriceChild> okies
[19:06] <HardDisk> ok I got one supporter :)
[19:06] <HardDisk> where are the rest of the fellas?
[19:07] <popey> i am about for ~10-15 mins if that helps?
[19:07] <Seveas> popey, yes, have you heard from the israelians?
[19:07] <popey> newp
[19:07] <Seveas> I'll remove them from the page then
[19:07] <popey> nice phrase :)
[19:07] <juliux> popey: go celebrating the birthday of your wife;)
[19:07] <Seveas> they can apply again when they are ready to
[19:07] <popey> juliux: she is getting ready
[19:07] <popey> it'll be 3 hours yet
[19:07] <Seveas> now go eat pie :)
[19:07] <juliux> popey: eheh
[19:08] <popey> who is first then?
[19:08] <Seveas> riot_le, you here?
[19:08] <riot_le> yeah i am here
[19:09] <popey> hi riot_le
[19:09] <Seveas> heya
[19:09] <Seveas> PriceChild, stgraber prod
[19:09] <PriceChild> I'm still here :)
[19:09] <riot_le> hi popey, seveas
[19:09] <Seveas> let's move quickly, popey needs to go soon :)
[19:09] <stgraber> me too
[19:09] <popey> what types of computers do you send via Linux4Afika?
[19:09] <popey> @ riot_le
[19:10] <riot_le> i386-Clients (from Pentium II till III) with x64-Servers
[19:10] <popey> you preinstall ubuntu on them I take it? :)
[19:10] <Seveas> riot_le, I think your wikipage is a bit thin. You say you contributeed since 6.06 but I see very little detail about that
[19:10] <riot_le> no we provide a Terminalservice/Thinclient-Solution
[19:11] <popey> oh, i see
[19:11] <PriceChild> riot_le: have you got anyone cheering for you, people who went to the local Ubuntuusermeeting in Leipzig? Any photos etc. or other materials to show off about all that organising and presenting? :)
[19:11] <Seveas> riot_le, what kind of things do you do for ubuntu?
[19:11] <riot_le> so Edubuntu is Installed at the Servers
[19:11] <popey> i agree with Seveas, there's a flurry of launchpad activity in the last month, but not much before
[19:12] <riot_le> i have explore launchpad at first 1 year ago, but doesnt spend so much time on it thats right
[19:12] <Seveas> that's fine, launchpad isn't the only place to contribute
[19:12] <popey> based on lack of cheers and and lack of long term sustained work, I'd say come back in 1-3 months
[19:13] <riot_le> here are our local wiki-page at ubuntuuser-wiki: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Anwendertreffen/Leipzig
[19:13] <Seveas> I agree with popey. If the Leipzig treffen is the only contribution to date, you really should wait a few months before applying.
[19:14] <riot_le> there are some pics and texts (german only. sorry)
[19:14] <Seveas> if it isn't you should document your contributions better and collect some testimonials
[19:14] <riot_le> testimonials?
[19:15] <_Lux> riot_le: (german) Zeugnisse, Referenzen
[19:15] <riot_le> ah ok, thankyou _Lux
[19:15] <popey> good effort so far riot_le, keep it up! we want to see you back here!
[19:15] <riot_le> thank you
[19:16] <Seveas> stgraber, PriceChild, do you agree?
[19:16] <PriceChild> riot_le: I'm saying the same, put things like that link you just gave us on your own wiki etc.! :)
[19:17] <stgraber> sorry, was still looking at the wiki pages. Yes I agree with what was said so far, please better document your contributions and try to get some friends to show up and get more testimonials.
[19:17] <HardDisk> hey dustybin :)
[19:18] <dustybin> HardDisk: who are you?
[19:18] <Seveas> ok, let's move on then
[19:18] <PriceChild> popey: how long do you have?
[19:18] <popey> 10 mins or so
[19:18] <Seveas> HardDisk, dustybin. there's a meeting in progress. please respect that and be quiet
[19:18] <Seveas> _Lux, you're up
[19:18] <HardDisk> Seveas, sorry he's one of my supporters
[19:18] <_Lux> Seveas: Here I am
[19:18] <_Lux> (quite excited)
[19:18] <popey> having looked at _Lux page, it seems thin on things that are tangeable, but it seems you do a lot of community type work that's hard to document?
[19:19] <popey> what does "proxy team lead" mean _Lux ?
[19:19] <_Lux> Matthias Urlichs was the team lead
[19:19] <_Lux> If he could not do the job, I was the second one
[19:19] <_Lux> Maybe proxy is the wrong word for that
[19:19] <popey> deputy?
[19:20] <_Lux> deputy sounds good
[19:20] <Seveas> _Lux, can you please get some of the other people from ubuntuusers.de to vouch for you? I think your contributions are great, but I'd like to see someone like Yann2 confirm that
[19:20] <popey> ok
[19:20] <_Lux> juliux is here
[19:20] <Seveas> ah, of course
[19:20] <popey> _Lux: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Verwaltung/Ikhaya-Team/Brief_an_einen_Windowsnutzer is there an english version of that?
[19:20] <Seveas> juliux, speak :)
[19:20] <_Lux> I can ask yann2 to come as well
[19:20] <juliux> i would like to give _Lux a testimonial, he is very active in the german locoteam, helps to bring ubuntu-eu to a good way and he did the same with ubutnuusers.de, he is also a tob contributer to the german ubuntu association he helps where he can
[19:20] <Seveas> +1 from me then
[19:21] <_Lux> popey: Unfortunately not ...
[19:21] <juliux> and he still help out the german locoteam, but he isn't longer living in germany;)
[19:21] <popey> _Lux: if you could find the time to translate, I'd be interested in seeing it :)
[19:21] <Seveas> popey, google translate?
[19:21] <_Lux> popey: It is about reasons thiking to "convert" to an other os
[19:21] <_Lux> popey: No prob
[19:21] <popey> _Lux: I think the UK loco might be interested in something like that
[19:21] <popey> as may other locos
[19:21] <_Lux> Seveas: Google translate is a mess
[19:22] <juliux> so for me _Lux showed a long termn contribution to the german locoteam and i am very happy that he is still acitve
[19:22] <PriceChild> _Lux: ubuntu-eu.org just ticking along fine? What involvement do you have in that project specifically - What have you done for it, other than lead?
[19:22] <PriceChild> bablefish ftl!
[19:22] <popey> +1 from me based on vouch from juliux
[19:22] <_Lux> PriceChild: I was an administrator in this team
[19:22] <_Lux> Server administrator
[19:22] <stgraber> _Lux: I see you are from Switzerland and even from Zurich (canton), were you at the Release Party ?
[19:22] <_Lux> In the beginning of this year I relocated to Switzerland
[19:23] <_Lux> stgraber: No, unfortunately not
[19:23] <_Lux> PriceChild: Doing web and server administration
[19:23] <PriceChild> ahhh so you admin the actual server, was wondering whether it was admin in running the people that contribute.
[19:24] <_Lux> PriceChild: Yes, server administration
[19:24] <_Lux> PriceChild: I think we had seven servers ...
[19:24] <_Lux> PriceChild: (more or less)
[19:24] <juliux> PriceChild: see http://www.ubuntu-eu.org/?page_id=3
[19:24] <popey> impressive
[19:25] <PriceChild> Cool, well I'm happy to +1.
[19:25] <Seveas> stgraber, what's your vote?
[19:25] <stgraber> +1
[19:25] <Seveas> nice!
[19:25] <Seveas> welcome aboard!
[19:25] <juliux> congratulations _Lux
[19:25] <popey> congrats _Lux
[19:25] <Seveas> HardDisk, you're up (and last)
[19:25] <HardDisk> congratulations _Lux :)
[19:25] <_Lux> Hooray, a virtual beer to all of you
[19:25] <riot_le> congratulation _Lux
[19:25] <_Lux> Thanks
[19:25] <HardDisk> Seveas, I'm ready
[19:26] <Seveas> HardDisk, I think your wikipage is way too thin. You say your main contribution is irc, but it lacks testimonials from the irc team
[19:26] <HardDisk> well I have them here
[19:26] <HardDisk> Jack_Sparrow is busy in #ubuntu right now.
[19:26] <PriceChild> HardDisk: a quick grep of my logs show you active in #ubuntu for the past week, but little more.
[19:26] <Seveas> there are also no testimonials for advocacy
[19:26] <yarddog> HardDisk !!!
[19:27] <HardDisk> I recently was made chanop for #ubuntu-eg
[19:27] <HardDisk> because there is a problem with our LoCo
[19:27] <Seveas> karma is 115, so translation contributions aren't that much either
[19:27] <popey> and all in the last 3 days
[19:27] <HardDisk> and started a blog
[19:27] <HardDisk> things are very slow in Egypt, unfortunately.
[19:28] <Seveas> I'm going for -1 due to all that
[19:28] <popey> Personally I'd rather people put tips and tricks on the help website (help.ubuntu.com/community) rather than on blogs, I think there are enough tip/trick blogs out there
[19:28] <HardDisk> fair enough.
[19:28] <Seveas> popey, +1
[19:28] <window> *roots*
[19:29] <popey> -1 from me also I'm afraid, based on a thin wiki page
[19:29] <Seveas> PriceChild, I lost all my logs, can't grep anymore :(
[19:29] <PriceChild> -1 from me too I'm afraid. For membership I want to a good sustained contribution, at the minimum about 3 solid months.
[19:29] <HardDisk> Well it's unfortunate, this won't help my goal to start a LoCo team.
[19:29] <HardDisk> But thank you.
[19:29] <PriceChild> HardDisk: aww don't let it put you off!
[19:30] <juliux> HardDisk: you don't have to be an ubuntu member to start a loco team, if you need help in your locoteam work come to the lococouncil
[19:30] <Seveas> you don't need to be ubuntu member to start a locoteam. Instead, contributing to a locoteam is a way to become member
[19:30] <stgraber> You wiki page looks empty and I won't give a +1 for IRC acitivity without testimonials. Contribute more and come back later. -1 from me too
[19:30] <PriceChild> HardDisk: You don't need membership to start a LoCo, starting a LoCo is one of the things that will contribute to your membership application!
[19:30] <juliux> HardDisk: next lococouncil meeting is next week
[19:30] <dustybin> anyone here think that ubuntu server should be discontinued? it isnt really up to par for being a 'server'? a 6 month release cycle isnt suited to servers?
[19:30] <HardDisk> PriceChild, I understand, but you don't understand how things are done here.
[19:30] <popey> dustybin: please don't troll in the middle of a meeting!
[19:30] <juliux> HardDisk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda people in #ubuntu-locoteams are also willing to help you
[19:30] <Seveas> end of meeting!
[19:31] <HardDisk> the Eglug is thin due to no "official" member support.
[19:31] <dustybin> popey: wasnt trolling, just my opinion
[19:31] <HardDisk> alright.
[19:31] <popey> dustybin: wrong place for it
[19:31] <PriceChild> HardDisk: what do you mean by that?
[19:31] <Seveas> popey, PriceChild stgraber: how about doing meetings once every two weeks?
[19:31] <popey> HardDisk: the loco council can help with building a loco
[19:31] <popey> Seveas: +1
[19:31] <stgraber> Seveas: +1
[19:31] <PriceChild> Seveas: i like that much more, better ask the cc first though
[19:31] <_Lux> What are the next steps for me?
[19:31] <HardDisk> PriceChild, I mean being a member would have helped to promote ubuntu, mentality here is tough
[19:31] <popey> Seveas: I'll email you the birthdays of all my friends and you can make sure you don't schedule meetings that day okay? :)
[19:32] <Seveas> PriceChild, I'll add this suggestion to the mail to all boards+cc
[19:32] <popey> _Lux: world domination!
[19:32] <juliux> _Lux: waiting;)
[19:32] <_Lux> popey: Sure, bin there, done that
[19:32] <_Lux> :-)
[19:32] <stgraber> Seveas: I don't think a 30 min meeting every week is useful, I prefer a one hour long meeting every two weeks
[19:32] <HardDisk> PriceChild, especially in a country with no (c) laws, it's been hard to promote ubuntu as an alternative when people get their paid OS's for free anyway.  You understand.
[19:32] <popey> _Lux: pressing send/receive on your email client until the mouse button wears out
[19:32] <_Lux> popey: Sure, been there, done that
[19:32] <PriceChild> HardDisk: i'm not sure it will have much more effect being a member
[19:32] <_Lux> popey: :-)
[19:32] <popey> :)
[19:32] <HardDisk> PriceChild, that's your opinion. I respect that.
[19:32] <Seveas> popey, pie time? :)
[19:32] <popey> HardDisk: the vast majority of community members are not ubuntu members
[19:33] <HardDisk> congratulations _Lux
[19:33] <PriceChild> HardDisk: what would being a member do for you, what opportunities would it open?
[19:33] <popey> HardDisk: it's not a pre-req
[19:33] <_Lux> Thank you HardDisk
[19:33] <_Lux> HardDisk: If I can assist you, I will help
[19:33] <HardDisk> PriceChild, it would let me represent ubuntu.
[19:33] <HardDisk> _Lux, I'd appreciate that
[19:33] <popey> HardDisk: anyone can do that
[19:33] <juliux> HardDisk: you can't present ubuntu without being a ubuntu member?
[19:33] <_Lux> HardDisk: Maybe Mehdi (from ubuntu Iran) could help you too, I think he knows the mentality
[19:33] <HardDisk> but I'm not whining.  It's voted, and done.  Thank you.
[19:34] <PriceChild> HardDisk: but you can say you're from the ubuntu community now? (people will understand that more than "i'm an ubuntu member" i think too)
[19:34] <HardDisk> _Lux, i'll contact him
[19:34] <juliux> HardDisk: are you on the loco-contact list?
[19:34] <juliux> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
[19:34] <HardDisk> juliux, no, because the LoCo leader/team members are AWOL
[19:35] <_Lux> HardDisk: Hey, help is guaranteed, it is ubuntu :-)
[19:35] <juliux> HardDisk: you can join the list
[19:35] <HardDisk> juliux, which is why I was granted chanop at #ubuntu-eg
[19:35] <popey> HardDisk: we (Loco council) may be able to help there
[19:35] <HardDisk> alright I'll do that
[19:35] <juliux> HardDisk: bring your issues up to the loco council;)
[19:35] <popey> Seveas: wifey hasn't decided what type of pie she wants, indian, chinese, italian..
[19:35] <HardDisk> shukran, thank you.
[19:36] <Seveas> popey, heh
[19:36] <juliux> HardDisk: popey and i now allready know about it so 2 of 5 members of the loco council knows it;)
[19:36] <Seveas> I had fish pie today. Recommended :)
[19:36] <popey> mmmmm pie
[19:36] <popey> http://drool.popey.com/
[19:37] <Seveas> hehe
[19:37] <juliux> popey: should we open a poll at launchpad?
[19:37] <Seveas> hmm, firefox3 in hardy-updates
[19:37] <Seveas> that's fast
[19:37] <popey> heh
[19:37] <yarddog> ff3 final is?
[19:37] <Seveas> according to our ffox maintainer
[19:38] <popey> we should tell all those poor saps downloading (or rather not) from firefox that if they install ubuntu they will get firefox 3 quicker :)
[19:38] <Seveas> hehe
[19:38] <_Lux> Seveas: Not yet mirrored ...
[19:38] <yarddog> not showing yet
[19:39] <popey> right, thanks all, I need to go and make myself look beautiful
[19:39] <popey> ttfn
[19:39] <PriceChild> ha
[19:39] <juliux> hf popey
[19:40] <PriceChild> erm, i mean "have fun"
[19:40] <_Lux> Bye4now
[19:40] <Seveas> popey, don't pursue impossible goals
[19:40] <_Lux> Thnak you all
[19:40] <_Lux> Thank you all
[19:40] <juliux> Seveas: now you can watch the game;)
[19:40] <Seveas> juliux, heh
[19:40] <Seveas> probably gonna watch IT-FR
[19:40] <juliux> Seveas: pls let the rumanie win;9
[19:40] <Seveas> NL-RO doesn't matter
[19:40] <juliux> RO has to win
[19:40] <juliux> then are IT and FR out;9
[19:41] <popey> :)
[19:41] <Seveas> NL isn't gonna give the game away
[19:41] <stgraber> too bad, would be fun to have IT and FR out :)
[19:41] <Seveas> yeah
[19:42] <juliux> stgraber: yes
[19:43] <ace_suares> i hink nl is not up to let ro win to just get fr and it out
[19:59] <mdz> sistpoty,nixternal: ping
[19:59] <nixternal> hola
[19:59] <sistpoty> hi folks
[19:59] <sistpoty> pong mdz
[20:00] <mdz> Keybuk reminded me that we actually agreed to change this meeting time, but since I had already told both of you it was now, we'll hold it now :-)
[20:00] <mdz> #startmeeting
[20:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:02. The chair is mdz.
[20:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:00] <nixternal> hehe, go go go :)  before my boss calls another meeting!
[20:00] <Keybuk> oh, MootBot is back
[20:00] <sistpoty> nice
[20:00] <mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application from Stefan Potyra (sistpoty)
[20:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Stefan Potyra (sistpoty)
[20:00] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001210.html
[20:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001210.html
[20:01] <mdz> sistpoty: are any of your sponsors here?
[20:01] <sistpoty> hm... not too sure... siretart around?
[20:01] <mdz> I see slangasek mentioned
[20:02] <sistpoty> hm... slangasek never sponsored me a package actually *g*
[20:02] <mdz> LaserJock
[20:02] <sistpoty> (and I'm having a hard time recalling my sponsors, I must admit... yeah, I guess laserjock and crimsun might have uploaded packages for me)
[20:02] <sistpoty> and dholbach
[20:03] <mdz> sistpoty: for my part, I don't have any first-hand experience of your work, so it would help if I could talk to folks who have worked with you
[20:03] <sistpoty> sure, that makes sense...
[20:04] <mdz> dholbach seems to have left for the evening
[20:04] <sistpoty> otoh, I guess my +packages page might also give some clue, how long I'm around for now ;)
[20:04] <mdz> certainly, I know your name and that you have been involved for a while
[20:05] <sistpoty> heh
[20:05] <mdz> sistpoty: would you mind if we email your sponsors and ask them for feedback?
[20:05] <mdz> if you could give us a list
[20:05] <sistpoty> sure, that's ok for me
[20:06] <mdz> sistpoty: meanwhile, can you tell us a bit about your decision to apply and what you hope to accomplish as a core developer?
[20:07] <sistpoty> iirc siretart, crimsun, laserjock, dholbach would be the ones. not too sure if I missed s.o. though (my uploads were spread for some time)
[20:07] <sistpoty> mdz: well, as I've tried to write in my mail to mc, basically it only comes down to bug fixing, or helping were help is needed
[20:07] <sistpoty> so don't expect too big goals here
[20:08] <sistpoty> I guess I like to take care of the small but interesting things, which otherwise just fall through the cracks
[20:08] <mdz> sistpoty: have you noticed anything in particular falling through the cracks recently?
[20:08] <sistpoty> e.g. the xserver-xorg-video-cirrus bug, which was only fixed for kvm by a workaround, but not the real bug istead
[20:08] <sistpoty> instead even
[20:08] <mdz> I'm not familiar with that bug
[20:09] <sistpoty> let me dig the url
[20:09] <sistpoty> bug #193323
[20:10] <sistpoty> it was funny, because actually the driver was broken (which I learnt later), and doesn't even work for real hw (not too much of a problem, I don't think anyone has such a cirrus these days)
[20:10] <mdz> sistpoty: you've been in MOTU for ages; surely you have some reason for deciding now to apply for core-dev
[20:11] <sistpoty> well, I must admit that so far I've seen my main area of interest in universe (and I guess that will remain so), and main land was always s.th. were I just file a bug and be good with it
[20:11] <sistpoty> but actually, I've come to think that main and universe aren't too much different, and there are some tight interactions between these two
[20:12] <sistpoty> so I think, if I could be of help for all of ubuntu, why not
[20:12] <mdz> sistpoty: we can always use more help in main, certainly
[20:13] <mdz> sistpoty: have you ever participated in ISO testing?
[20:13] <sistpoty> no, haven't done that, though I had plans to set up some automated iso tests with FAUmachine (but have never finished that actually)
[20:14] <mdz> sistpoty: what is FAUmachine?
[20:14] <siretart> sistpoty: but in fact you already have automated iso tests in FAU machines, no?
[20:15] <sistpoty> mdz: FAUmachine is virtual machine based on qemu, focussed a little bit more on simulation however (and comes with features to run automated tests)
[20:15] <sistpoty> www.faumachine.org
[20:15] <mdz> sistpoty: how could it be used to help us with testing?
[20:15] <sistpoty> siretart: iso testing: well, we have setups for a number of debian standard installations, and win2k/winxp, and I guess I could add some for ubuntu as well
[20:16] <sistpoty> mdz: well, you can write test scripts which server as input for the "virtual user" (i.e. control the mouse, type text or check to see if a pattern is matched on the screen)
[20:17] <mdz> sistpoty: how does the pattern matching work?
[20:17] <sistpoty> mdz: so you can automate an installation, and e.g. check if openoffice starts or s.th.
[20:17] <sistpoty> mdz: it uses png files as input, and the script will continue, once the png is matched with the screen output
[20:17] <sistpoty> (or abort after a timeout)
[20:18] <mdz> sistpoty: so you take a screenshot, and refer to that in the script?
[20:18] <sistpoty> yes
[20:18] <mdz> sistpoty: in the course of your packaging work, have you interacted much with Debian maintainers?
[20:19] <sistpoty> mainly by filing bugs, though I'm also part of the debian games team (but not really active there atm.)
[20:19] <siretart> mdz: I just got your email (though I came late to this meeting) - I commented on stefans application in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001201.html, and would definitely recommend him for main. I have worked with him in debian (with my DD hat on) as well, mainly in the pkg-games team.
[20:20] <mdz> sistpoty: patches, or just regular bug reports?
[20:20] <sistpoty> mdz: both... but more patches I think
[20:21] <mdz> siretart: thank you.  have you sponsored uploads for him for Ubuntu main?
[20:21] <mdz> sistpoty: how did the maintainers respond?  were your patches merged and the bugs closed, or are they still open?
[20:21] <siretart> mdz: the last sponsored uploads was a merge for an xorg driver and the mentioned fix in the xorg cirrus driver.
[20:22] <sistpoty> mdz: in most of the cases, the patches were accepted (that's why I there aren't many merges with my name on them)
[20:22] <sistpoty> mdz: in the rest, the maintainer was mainly inactive, or the patches weren't approved (e.g. one desktop files iirc
[20:22] <mdz> sistpoty: it was mentioned in your application that you ran a MOTU class regarding library packaging. how did you learn about it?
[20:23] <sistpoty> mdz: well, I know some few bits, and put together a rough draft. Then I asked slangasek and that's the point I guess were I learned the most myself
[20:23] <mdz> sistpoty: how did you know to ask him?
[20:24] <sistpoty> mdz: I discussed it with siretart during uds boston
[20:24] <sistpoty> (discussed the plan to hold a library packaging session even)
[20:24] <mdz> I see
[20:24] <mdz> sistpoty: do you have any questions for us?
[20:25] <sistpoty> no, not at the moment
[20:25] <mdz> do you have any thoughts on how the Ubuntu project could be improved, particularly with regard to developers?
[20:26] <sistpoty> well, I think there's still some barrier between paid canonical devs and volunteers, but it's a great thing to see this diminishing more and more
[20:26] <mdz> sistpoty: where is that apparent?
[20:26] <mdz> as you probably know, we work hard to avoid a barrier, but it's difficult to get an objective view
[20:27] <sistpoty> mdz: that's a good question... it's rather more a feeling, but becomes apparent from remarks here and there overseen on irc
[20:27] <mdz> sistpoty: anything you could share which might help us understand or improve?
[20:27] <sistpoty> mdz: I think we're on the right track there already, and it imho was a huge step forwards to have a community body speak out core-dev recommendations (and make that process more open)
[20:28] <sistpoty> others than that, I believe that much development focus for main still is going on via irc, and I guess the mailing list could be used more (so that casual contributors know better what's going on)
[20:29] <mdz> I've noticed that as the project has grown, we've taken more to IRC and the mailing lists are used less
[20:29] <mdz> I think in some ways that's a shame, because the lists are more accessible
[20:29] <mdz> but IRC is more efficient for day-to-day work
[20:30] <sistpoty> yes
[20:30] <mdz> Keybuk: ping?
[20:30] <sistpoty> funnily, I believe for motu we're heading the opposite direction right now (to use the lists more)
[20:30] <mdz> I think Keybuk may have lost his connection
[20:30] <mdz> sistpoty: why do you think that is happening?
[20:31] <sistpoty> mdz: that's a good question.. I guess both because we've grown in size to quite a large team (and hence e.g. timezone issues arise)
[20:31] <sistpoty> but even more, we've got a growing number of "old" developers, who are busy with their job or other things, and only casually contribute
[20:32] <mdz> it looks like I'm on my own here, and without Keybuk we don't have a quorum
[20:33] <mdz> sistpoty: if he doesn't come back, would it be OK to process your application further by email?
[20:33] <sistpoty> mdz: sure, no problem for me
[20:34] <mdz> [AGREED] to continue the application process via email
[20:34] <MootBot> AGREED received:  to continue the application process via email
[20:34] <mdz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-core-dev application from Richard Johnson (nixternal)
[20:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-core-dev application from Richard Johnson (nixternal)
[20:34] <mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001219.html
[20:34] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-June/001219.html
[20:34] <nixternal> hola!
[20:35] <nixternal> my boss thinks I am on IRC finding out some hacking info on Anaconda, so I should be safe for a few minutes here
[20:35] <mdz> nixternal: would it be better to talk another time?  it would be better if you could speak freely
[20:35] <mdz> nixternal: or we could chat via email
[20:35] <nixternal> I am good to go :)
[20:35] <nixternal> we can chat here
[20:36] <mdz> nixternal: Keybuk is MIA anyway, so I don't expect we'll be able to vote, but we can talk a bit
[20:36] <nixternal> that's fine with me, how about you pick what you would like to do, I have no problem waiting either
[20:37] <mdz> Riddell,Hobbsee,imbrandon,Tonio_,crimsun: if you have anything you'd like to say, please do
[20:37] <nixternal> imbrandon, tonio, and crimsun are afk and didn't leave a response due to personal issues
[20:38] <nixternal> so that leaves Riddell, Hobbsee, and ScottK
[20:38] <mdz> nixternal: do you think there is hope for closer collaboration between the GNOME and KDE communities?
[20:38]  * ScottK is here now.
[20:38] <Riddell> I fully endorse nixternal as core-dev, he's an excellent contributor
[20:39]  * ScottK too (plus a retroactive endorsement for sistpoty).  Both excellent candidates.
[20:39] <Riddell> he did a great job recently backporting kde 4.1 for hardy
[20:39] <Riddell> if he could contribute changes to packages directly to intrepid while doing that it would have been useful
[20:39] <nixternal> mdz: I definitely do, and over the past year I think you are starting to see more and more of it actually, especially with GNOME and KDE coming together for their developer summits in 2009
[20:40] <mdz> nixternal: do you think there is anything Ubuntu could do to facilitate that?
[20:40] <nixternal> mdz: good question...I would say yes and no...Yes because we are obviously the top distro and we have a lot of good feedback to provide
[20:41] <nixternal> I say no because there are people in both communities (GNOME and KDE) that tend to get upset when we try to poke at things that they want and not necessarily what we want
[20:41] <nixternal> and of course, Canonical can always sponsor it :)  which I am pretty sure will happen anyways
[20:42] <mdz> nixternal: we're very interested in the colocated guadec/akademy
[20:42] <nixternal> as I am! hopefully I will be there
[20:42] <mdz> Canonical has sponsored both events this year
[20:42] <mdz> and it would be easier to participate in both if they were together
[20:42] <nixternal> and I know we (KDE) are very happy that you did as well
[20:43] <nixternal> it helps a lot and shows your commitment to wanting to help out
[20:43] <mdz> nixternal: are there any bits of technology in KDE 4 which might be equally useful in a GNOME desktop?
[20:44] <nixternal> eventually I would have to say Phonon is nice (now in Qt though, Gtk could look at adopting it maybe), definitely Akonadi which isn't KDE based anymore
[20:44] <nixternal> I don't use the GNOME desktop much really, just some apps, like Evolution
[20:44] <nixternal> however I think KDE could use a little KDEPIM help from the evolution folks on stuff like better Exchange support
[20:44] <mdz> nixternal: I noticed you work on rsibreak; do you suffer from RSI or is it a casual interest? :-)
[20:44] <nixternal> right now at work I have to use Evolution because Kontact/KDEPIM can't do my public calendars
[20:45] <nixternal> hahahaha, mdz check the IRC logs, they should speak for themselves :)
[20:45] <mdz> nixternal: have you found any treatment particularly helpful?
[20:45] <mdz> I'm always looking for new things to try myself
[20:46] <nixternal> sleep is about it really especially when I work all day on a laptop
[20:46] <nixternal> but I tend to take breaks and swing my golf clubs or go for a bike ride
[20:46] <mdz> my cyclist friends tell me it is the solution to all physical problems
[20:46] <nixternal> that it is :)
[20:46] <nixternal> although I pedal 60 miles round trip every day to work
[20:47] <nixternal> and that I just started, so my arse and legs are currently shot
[20:47] <mdz> nixternal: I'm afraid we'll have to defer further processing of your application as well, since we don't have a quorum
[20:47] <mdz> apologies for that
[20:47] <nixternal> that's groovy with me
[20:47] <mdz> but thanks for speaking with me, and I'll follow up further by email
[20:47] <nixternal> no problem
[20:47] <mdz> [AGREED] to continue processing by email
[20:47] <MootBot> AGREED received:  to continue processing by email
[20:47] <nixternal> mdz: roger that, very much appreciated :) thanks!
[20:47] <mdz> [TOPIC] Other business
[20:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
[20:47] <nixternal> thanks Riddell and ScottK as well, and you too Hobbsee for emailing your response :)
[20:47] <mdz> any other business?
[20:48] <mdz> #endmeeting
[20:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:51.
[20:48] <mdz> thanks, all, sorry for the lack of resolution
[20:48] <mdz> MootBot: and you should think in UTC
[20:50] <sistpoty> thanks for the meeting mdz :)