[01:25] trying to figure out how to do the dancing icons [04:16] nixternal: almost in luck, then. [05:14] @schedule Vancouver [05:14] nickellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 18 Jun 10:00: QA Team | 18 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 15:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 06:00: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 13:00: Security Team === Moot2 is now known as MootBot [07:55] <\sh> Seveas: can you please send ubottu to #leonov :) thx [09:00] \sh: Ummm, seveas doesnt run ubottu - I do. what is #leonov? [09:01] <\sh> jussi01: launchpad desktop client.. [09:14] \sh: do you upload the code or a package to Launchpad yet? === riot_l1 is now known as riot_le [09:14] <\sh> riot_le: launchpad.net/leonov :) [09:16] \sh: great idea [09:18] <\sh> riot_le: yes...since launchpad was born I had this idea :) [09:21] \sh: what do you think how long will it take, till its usable? [09:22] <\sh> riot_le: depends...we have some things still to do...some other things we have to implement in py-lp-bugs, but thekorn rocks in doing this ;) hopefullly I'll have for the kde part a working bug info display this evening [09:22] <\sh> well...real life and real money work sucks ;) [09:23] thats true :-) === asac_ is now known as asac === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 21 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community === persia_ is now known as persia === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team [17:59] hey hey [17:59] hey everyone [18:00] * stgraber waves === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team [18:00] hi [18:01] wow we have a Fridge entry :) [18:01] yeah, rocks [18:01] yeah! [18:01] sbeattie, cgregan: around? [18:01] congrats :) [18:01] here [18:01] hey davmor2 [18:02] heno: hello :) [18:02] ok, let's start [18:02] #startmeeting [18:02] Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is heno. [18:02] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [18:02] \o/ [18:03] [TOPIC]: Hardy.1 SRU verification [18:03] New Topic: : Hardy.1 SRU verification [18:03] hey [18:04] Here is a nice tracker sbeattie and LaserJock have been working on http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html [18:05] some of the major packages like linux, openoffice and ltsp have been tested and seem good [18:05] firefox 3.0 was also released today [18:06] one area of concern is pulseaudio/alsa [18:06] sbeattie: do you have a view on that [18:06] ? [18:06] it's an area where we need to appeal for more testing I think [18:06] heno: in terms of? [18:07] Yes, I believe it's an area where we should appeal for testing. [18:07] sbeattie: what were the concerns expressed at last week's .1 meeting? [18:07] or is there a log I can look at? [18:08] alsa/pulseaudio has a lot of problems as released, probably due to version mismatch between alsa's userspace and kernel. [18:08] what are the concerns about the new versions? [18:09] just that they are undertested? [18:09] sbeattie: is that the cause of somethings playing in wrong speakers if two audio apps are running? [18:09] and that it's a major change? [18:09] davmor2: that I don't know. [18:10] Yes, that it's a major upgrade for the userspace component, from 1.0.15 to 1.0.16. [18:10] new version aka alsa 1.0.16 ? [18:10] there's a resume about it here: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/221673/comments/16 [18:10] Launchpad bug 221673 in alsa-plugins "ALSA failing with PulseAudio in Hardy" [Undecided,Fix committed] [18:10] seb128 talked with jordi about it and send us an IRC log which slangasek resume on that comment [18:10] s/send/sent [18:11] ok, thanks. that sheds some light [18:12] has mgunes been around lately? This would be a good item to bring to the forums [18:12] recently, there's an additional concern that the new alsa-lib causes regressions for xubuntu as well [18:12] which bug I cannot currently find [18:13] mmm [18:13] I didn't see that bug either [18:13] the last comment in 221673 perhaps? [18:13] oh right, bug 240337 [18:13] Launchpad bug 240337 in alsa-lib "Upgrade of libasound2 to 1.0.16 on xubuntu 8.04 desktop causes many applications to 'hang'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/240337 [18:14] http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com/msg884888.html [18:14] LINK received: http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com/msg884888.html [18:14] so what is most needed here, general testing or better debugging information on know issues? [18:14] * heno suspects the answer is 'both' :) [18:15] I think that's right. [18:15] :-) [18:15] or maybe a more standard way of testing for the upgrades? [18:16] davmor2: yes we need that too. We could use your help on improving https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification :) === RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAx [18:16] * davmor2 looking [18:16] to be as user friendly as the new test case pages [18:17] Ok, I'll read some logs and bugs about know issues and appeal for wider testing [18:17] davmor2: did you mean in particular about testing alsa? [18:17] heno: that's just scary :-/ [18:18] sbeattie, slangasek: anything else we should note about the remaining SRUs? [18:18] Because that would perhaps be useful, drawing up some specific things to test. [18:18] sbeattie: no as a whole [18:18] heno: nothing off the top of my head, no [18:19] other areas that we could use help verifying fixes are some of the wubi/installer related bugs. [18:19] I see there are some installer/wubi/migration-assistant issues [18:19] sbeattie: My point is it's okay to install -proposed but if you hardly use the apps that get updated you'll never know if there are any issues :) Hope that makes sense [18:19] ... :) [18:19] lupin, migration-assistant, casper. [18:20] is there an updated version that can be dropped on a cd now rather than recompiling a version and I can test that then? [18:20] davmor2: right, the bugs linked from http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html should have test cases [18:20] that brings us to CD testing :) [18:20] otherwise, the list of things needing verification has been pared down quite well, in part thanks to heno and stgraber for verifying openoffice and ltsp respectively. [18:21] yes, cd testing, when I started to do some installer verification testing last week, I found the alternatives cd was broken [18:21] these are not built from proposed I guess http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/hardy/daily/current/ [18:21] slangasek fixed it, but we need to some smoke testing of what's getting built. [18:21] that might be useful in the future [18:22] There's some isos being built from proposed... [18:22] heno: they are built from proposed [18:22] ah, very cool [18:23] slangasek: are these the iso that will be put forward as .1 or alpha 1 or both? [18:23] .1 [18:23] they're under /hardy/ - they have nothing to do with intrepid :) [18:23] [TOPIC]: 8.04.1 ISO testing [18:23] New Topic: : 8.04.1 ISO testing [18:23] Ah right np's :) [18:24] (just for the bookkeeping :) ) [18:24] davmor2: both need testing, and hardy.1 more strictly [18:24] No probs heno. [18:24] stgraber says we can list both on the tracker [18:25] that's cool :) [18:25] slangasek: are the other *buntus getting built for .1 as well? [18:25] yes [18:25] excellent [18:25] but not until we fix a buglet introduced by removing packages from -proposed [18:26] oh, they're failing to build now? [18:26] heno: it's indeed possible to do it, I must admit not having tested that for a long time :) [18:27] actually, they /were/ failing to build, now they just need an archive fix; sorry, my explanation above was ill-informed and buggy :) [18:27] Heh, no problem, thanks for clarifying [18:27] so we should do some light smoke testing of the current hardy.1 CDs and then do more full coverage as we get final-candidate images [18:27] agreed [18:28] heno: when are the FC cds going to be around? [18:28] Is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Isoscript still useful for keeping daily images current? [18:28] as far as anyone knows? [18:28] is there a list of all the updates/bugs fixed on the .1 ? [18:28] sbeattie: it will be if you change directories [18:29] indeed, we should study the changes that have gone in to see what to focus on [18:29] or change hardy to intrepid [18:29] davmor2: intending for 8.04.1 images. [18:29] we also talked about copying the test cases over to .../LTS/... [18:29] LaserJock: not yet, that's something I else I want/need to generate [18:29] so we can keep them as they are while updating for Intrepid [18:30] i.e. fork them [18:30] sbeattie: yes change the path for where the script looks for the image [18:30] davmor2: thanks, good to know. [18:30] sbeattie: perhaps you can use pitti's script to extract out the bug #s for everything in hardy-updates? [18:31] sbeattie: as long as there is still a current it should be fine :) [18:31] sbeattie: filtering out Universe that should give you quite a lot of info still [18:31] LaserJock: that's a possiiblity. [18:31] LaserJock: you interested and available to help out with that? [18:31] That should only affect Ubuntu though as Kubuntu is not LTS FOR 8.04 [18:31] ("no" is a perfectly valid answer) [18:32] sbeattie: some at least yeah. I'm interested in the answer for Universe as well [18:32] LaserJock: that's what I suspected [18:32] action: sbeattie (primarily) and laserjock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1 [18:32] ACTION: sbeattie (primarily) and laserjock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1 [18:33] * sbeattie hrm [18:33] sbeattie, LaserJock: Make sure not to forget Xubuntu :) [18:33] buggy bot [18:33] I guess heno needs to do that, and it's [ACTION] [18:33] it doesn't like you. perhaps you need to feed it more bot snacks [18:34] cody-somerville: make sure to ping us about that, but yeah, we'll have to keep that in mind :/ [18:34] [ACTION]: sbeattie (primarily) and LaserJock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1 [18:34] ACTION received: : sbeattie (primarily) and LaserJock to generate a list of fixes going in to 8.04.1 [18:34] heno what was that about kubuntu? [18:34] cody-somerville: maybe we can look for SRUs in packages in the Xubuntu Hardy seed? [18:34] [ACTION] cody-somerville to liaison with LaserJock regarding fixes going in to 8.04.1 for Xubuntu specific packages. [18:35] * cody-somerville tried. [18:35] sbeattie: because Kubuntu is staying on KDE 3.5 (+the 4.0 remix), Kubuntu isn't LTS for 8.04 [18:35] so we don't need to keep copies of the Kubuntu test cases around for 3/5 years [18:35] ah, got it. [18:36] we are respinning the CDs now because of the ssl issues AFAIU [18:36] yes, branching the testcases would be good. [18:36] which we don't expect to repeat :) [18:36] * slangasek nods [18:36] [TOPIC]: Spec status [18:36] New Topic: : Spec status [18:37] heno: one sec [18:37] ok [18:37] slangasek: are you okay if we push for more widespread testing of the alsa update? [18:37] i.e. blog/forum announcements? [18:38] I'm somewhat concerned that this would flood us with low-quality feedback while we're still trying to sort out the meaning of bugs like #240337 [18:38] That one does seem to be missing hardware info [18:40] too much testing of -proposed seem like a bit of a luxury problem [18:40] we got a reasonable response after I blogged, but not a flood [18:41] slangasek: we could time it for a couple days out, to give Luke time to sort out that particular issue if possible. [18:41] Luke doesn't have HW to replicate the issues with the bug [18:43] persia: what hardware is that? the bug doesn't seem to say [18:43] what HW is it, and can we get it to him? [18:44] slangasek: Perhaps I'm confused then. He was previously saying that he was having trouble replicating some of the pulse issues that might be related to the ALSA mismatch, as his HW worked. [18:45] Nevermind. I've read the bug backwards. That's a 1.0.16 bug. Sorry. [18:45] ok :) [18:46] ok, shall we move to specs? [18:46] that's fine. [18:47] Thanks everyone for polishing off the specs [18:47] they are now all in good shape and Approved [18:47] (appart from a fw that are not started ...) [18:48] and I need to re-read the mobile one [18:48] cgregan: thanks for updating, looks good at a glance [18:48] heno: I completed the updates we spoke about. [18:48] :-) [18:49] Is there anybody that can help me with this bug? It is rather important. [18:49] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/232364 [18:49] Launchpad bug 232364 in dbus "dbus-launch freezes for unknown reason at session start" [High,Confirmed] [18:49] I also want to add one about automated CD testing and one about QAs role in advising on release status [18:49] It should really be fixed for the point release if at all possible [18:49] Oops, I guess I interjected there. [18:50] cody-somerville: that's ok, can you bring it to #u-bugs or #u-testing afterwards? [18:50] * cody-somerville nods. [18:51] bdmurray: I looked at the teams in LP as we talked about for the categories on the package info pages but found the mapping quite poor, so I wen't with a hand-crafted stucture loosely based on team interest [18:52] we may need to refine that as we go, but we shouln't block on it [18:52] heno: I thought that we should improve the mapping in Launchpad [18:53] bdmurray: right, wecan still go that route, but ATM it's quite inconsistent how teams relate to packages [18:54] okay, sounds good [18:54] and if we make changes across the board it will affect the bug mail people get I guess [18:55] I still like that approach but it was starting to look like a major blocker [18:56] any other comments on specs? if not let's revisit them in 2 weeks [18:56] maybe leave it till it's safe to play about with it and formalise a plan of attack and lay it out properly then? [18:56] heno: what spec were you just discussing? [18:56] davmor2: I'd rather have the pages up sooner so we can get use from them [18:57] even if the structure is not 'perfect' [18:57] LaserJock: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/package-status-pages [18:58] heno: sorry not well explained. Keep things as they are now then when it is safe to swap stuff around re-think the layout then is what I mean :) [18:58] davmor2: ok, then I agree :) [18:58] any other topics for the meeting? [18:58] (2 minute ones :) ) [18:59] one minute your clock is slow ;) [18:59] not from me [18:59] heno: why would those status pages not be done by Launchpad, and for every package? [19:00] LaserJock: we basically have those pages already for each package in LP ;) [19:00] virtually all the data is from Launchpad it looks like (except maybe popcon, but that probably should be in Launchpad as well ;-) ) [19:00] this will be more team focused, collecting packages together [19:01] heno: and wouldn't that go into a teams package report on Launchpad? [19:01] * LaserJock is playing a bit of devil's advocate, but is curious [19:01] we are prototyping this now but the functionality should probably be implemented in LP later, I agree [19:02] ok [19:02] That's part of the motivation for having the assoication btwn teams and packages exist in lp [19:02] LaserJock: I agree, we are just trying to move it along [19:03] make assigning bugs easy too I guess :) [19:03] bdmurray: right, I'd be happy to get a second opinion on the feasibility of doing that now [19:03] heno: I'll look into it with one of the teams [19:04] bdmurray: I only had a brief look and don't know the dusty corners of LP as well as you do :) [19:04] bdmurray: great, thanks [19:04] ok, thanks all! [19:04] #endmeeting [19:04] Meeting finished at 13:07. [19:04] bye ! [19:04] thanks [19:05] thanks! [19:05] thanks [19:25] * cody-somerville stretches. === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam [19:30] !time [19:30] Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP) [20:21] @now [20:21] TheSheep: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 18 2008, 19:21:15 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day [20:37] hmm... [20:37] * cody-somerville pokes ubottu [20:40] cody-somerville: we still have 20 minutes [20:40] :) [20:42] @schedule [20:42] pimanx: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 18 Jun 20:00: Xubuntu Community | 18 Jun 22:00: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00: How to run a Bug Jam [20:50] Just waiting for the Xubuntu community meeting [20:51] well, we've just been waiting for you obviously [20:52] :) [20:52] glad to hear it [20:53] For those who haven't had a chance to review it yet, the draft can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument [20:59] * cody-somerville stretches. === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Community | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Jun 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 19 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 19 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 20 Jun 16:00 UTC: How to run a Bug Jam [21:01] * cody-somerville cheers. [21:01] Hello Folks! [21:01] \o_ [21:02] I'm just finishing up at work [21:02] hello [21:02] I'm retired, but just starting work [21:03] charlie-tca, :) [21:04] I'll be listening mostly [21:04] This is a follow up meeting to the very successful Xubuntu community meeting we had not too long ago. [21:05] With the help of Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community Manager, we as a community were able to come together to find consensus on several key issues. [21:06] The most important accomplishment we made was agreeing on an initial mission statement [21:07] uhu .. there goes the bot [21:08] we don't need no stinkin bot ;) [21:08] I'm also very grateful that I was tasked with the responsibility of forging forward as the newly appointed Xubuntu Team Leader. My initial mandate being to develop a strategy document that would provide a solid foundation for the Xubuntu project to grow and mature. [21:08] Guess the bot didn't think so [21:09] The mission statement which was agreed upon is as follows: [21:10] Xubuntu will provide (The goal of Xubuntu is to produce) an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed auto [21:10] nomously as part of the wider Ubuntu community, based around the ideals and values of Ubuntu. [21:12] For a project to have a useful vision and strategy, it must have a target audience or group. The target audience (or group) for Xubuntu is users who are interested in having a modestly light weight, slim, fast desktop experience while retaining the usability and functionality that is required to provide an easy to use desktop environment. [21:12] * TheSheep has a deja vu [21:13] Now, before I bore everyone with fluffy talk, I think it is important to dig right in [21:13] I' [21:13] We will use a three tier system that defines our foci and provides a transparent, agnostic framework that can be applied to dispute resolution, package selection, policy, and our decision making processes. [21:14] This is a unique feature to the Xubuntu community which I feel will enable us to make fluid strides towards achieving objectives. [21:14] Focus 1: Integration [21:15] It is important for us to provide an integrated desktop as it is a critical component to being a useful desktop, a usable desktop, and an effective desktop. Without integration, the Xubuntu desktop will be rough and unpolished which is unappealing to our end-users. We will provide an integrated desktop by selecting packages that work well with each other and applying patches (aka "glue") to further improve the situation. [21:15] Success is measured by considering the progress made during a release cycle towards related specifications and user feedback. In the future, more comprehensive metrics will be developed. [21:15] Focus 2: Usability [21:16] We want Xubuntu to be usable. By this, not only do we mean we want Xubuntu to be easy to use but also accessible and localized to enable users who face impairments and those wishing to work in their own tongue. To accomplish this, we'll strongly consider the usability and accessibility of an application when deciding on package selection, invest in contributing to upstream usability and localization efforts, and pulling on t [21:16] alent from our community to provide interface usability analysis. [21:16] Success in providing an accessible desktop can be measured through testing (including automated) and user feedback while localization will be measured by looking at the percentage of the desktop that is translated. To measure how easy to use Xubuntu is, we'll employ test cases and draw on the community talent to provide professional grade analysis. [21:16] Focus 3: Performance [21:17] Being lightweight, slim, and fast are all words that have been used to describe and market Xubuntu. However, over the last few releases we've noticed that not only does Xubuntu pale in comparison to some of the other Xfce4 distributions but we've also been putting on even more weight and bulk. Although it is not Xubuntu's goal nor target to provide a desktop environment which will run on the most minimal of systems, it is Xu [21:17] buntu's goal to provide a desktop that is modest and can run with minimal problems on machines that have aged a few years. [21:17] Now, this part is important [21:17] The initial target will be 128mbs-192mbs of RAM (with appropriate swap space available) and 333Mhz-400Mhz CPU. The target for a release will be evaluated at the beginning of each release cycle and updated as required. [21:17] 400Mhz? [21:17] Can I come in there? [21:18] Dare I ask where? [21:18] I don't want to interrupt if this isn't the right moment [21:18] cody-somerville, I believe he wants to say something [21:18] well, I don't think 400Mhz is a pretty realistic projection [21:18] Okay. [21:18] What do you feel would be more realistic? [21:18] 600Mhz ? [21:19] At least [21:19] I mean .. of course, you MIGHT just be able to get it to run on 400Mhz [21:19] * TheSheep used xubuntu dapper on a 200Mhz box, it was possible... [21:19] I ran Xubuntu on 333mhz for several years. [21:19] If I may, you can run all the versions so far on 400 Mhz [21:19] But you just told us about Xubuntu's strive for usability [21:19] And its hardly going to be of much use on a 400Mhz processor [21:20] From what I can tell [21:20] * pygi notes that especially burning higher capacity disks require more CPU ... [21:20] two of my 4 systems I use daily are 400Mhz [21:20] it all depends on the use case [21:20] Thank you for bringing that up Moe. [21:20] I think you've made an excellent point [21:20] some use cases will require faster cpus [21:20] Oh your welcome .. I just thought I'd voice my opionion on that .. please go on [21:20] playing dvd movies... [21:21] I think that Xubuntu should aim for a range [21:21] cody-somerville: about that, you cannot target a range, you can target several targets, but not a range... [21:21] the thing is ... the apps that you ship must be usable under most use cases [21:22] pygi, Most appear to be (except maybe Firefox) [21:22] Whats Xubuntu shipping as its default email client again? [21:22] cody-somerville, ship Midori then? [21:22] ff3b5 was slow loading on to my 500-600Mhz. i don't know about yours... [21:22] Moe, Thunderbird. [21:22] midori is not really stable, is it? [21:23] Okay, what applies to firefox applies to thunderbird as well [21:23] TheSheep: not quite... [21:23] Keep that in mind [21:23] TheSheep, it hasnt crashed even once on me, while ff has millions of times [21:23] I think it is important that Xubuntu does not exclusively target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum with a strong focus on enabling lower end machines. Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users regardless of their hardware - no? [21:23] what about epiphany-webkit, when it is stable? [21:23] Odd-rationale, also seems even better, as it is supported by gnome project (6 months release cycle) [21:24] Odd-rationale: that;s a decission to make once we have the strategy defined [21:24] cody-somerville: I second that [21:24] k [21:24] So, although the experience won't be super stellar on a 333mhz we aren't aiming for that either [21:25] We weren't talking about stellar performance .. we were talking about Xubuntu being usable at 333Mhz ;-) [21:25] We're simply looking to enable that machine to an agreed and achievable level of usefulness. [21:25] Well, as someone who has used Xubuntu on a 333mhz for a number of years I certainly appreciated having Xubuntu around :) [21:25] cody-somerville: it's just my opinion, but shouldn't we have several well-defined targets, instead of that range? For example, have a separate "low-spec user, low expectations" user and another "I want everythng" one? [21:25] I think it is usable, with the exception of FF3 [21:25] * cody-somerville nods at charlie-tca. [21:25] TheSheep, Thats an excellent idea, IMHO. [21:26] However, I'll rest my case for now .. I haven't run Xubuntu on a mere 333Mhz yet .. so I'm shooting in the dark here (although, my assumptions are founded on experience) [21:26] so we have "low-end user wants to do this, this and that, but doesn't care about this, this and that" [21:26] TheSheep: Xubuntu Home Basic and Xubuntu Ultimate? [21:26] * Moe chuckles [21:26] * pygi burns Moe [21:26] Sorry, couldn't resist [21:27] Moe: no, one install, just two use scenarios [21:27] right right .. I know what you mean .. just ignore my blabber [21:28] Granted, I use what I need when running the low-speed cpus, but can't you run all the programs in a faster machine? [21:29] Ok. I endorse TheSheep's idea about instead of having a range, having several well defined targets each with well defined expectations. [21:29] Any other points/comments about any of the three focuses? :) [21:30] cody-somerville: disk space for the "performance" part [21:30] or rather "lightweightness" [21:31] it's getting important with those flash-based cheap laptops around [21:31] [21:31] oops... [21:31] * pygi just notes epiphany-webkit/midori + syphleed-claws (or whatever the name is) would work much better then tb + ff [21:31] pygi: claws mail [21:31] Well, one change I made today is modifying our seeds to allow for individuals to uninstall packages they rather not have without removing xubuntu-desktop along with it [21:31] :) [21:31] cool! [21:32] i was wondering about that... [21:32] Great! [21:32] Odd-rationale, yea, but syphleed-claws is more bleeding edge :) [21:32] Now for those of you following along in the specification, you know whats next. [21:32] pygi: oh, ok. i thought claws mail was the "better". could have gotten confused... [21:32] howdy! [21:33] Heya highvoltage :) [21:33] pygi: syphleed-claws is replaced by claws-mail; sylpheed is also good without the bells and whistles [21:33] charlie-tca, ah, that, yes :p [21:33] Odd-rationale, you were right, sorry :) [21:33] * cody-somerville introduces "(Unofficial) Focus 4: Community" [21:33] hey cody! [21:33] highvoltage, long time no see ;) [21:33] Although not an official element of the Xubuntu Three Tier focus (which is limited in scope to technical considerations), community *is* most certainly a focus and priority within the Xubuntu project. Xubuntu is community driven meaning that it is developed, maintained, and supported by members of the Xubuntu community. For Xubuntu to be a healthy and successful project, it must have a healthy and successful community. Xubun [21:33] tu, as a project, will aim to be composed of a vibrant, active and energized community and will attempt to accomplish this by being proactive in its development of said community. Xubuntu will host bug days, packaging jams, and other public events specifically targeted to raising awareness and interest in the Xubuntu project. [21:33] pygi: heh, yes. I bet uni is keeping you very busy [21:34] highvoltage, yea, and mucho nice new stuff :) [21:34] charlie-tca, pygi: these are really specific decissions that will be made according to this strategy cody is trying to make :) [21:34] cody-somerville: where can I see the three tier focus? [21:34] highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument [21:34] highvoltage, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument [21:34] ah right [21:35] Included in my endeavour to support the growth of the Xubuntu community is my interest in developing stronger relationships with upstream - ie. Debian and Xfce4 [21:35] I'm really excited to see a number of Xfce4 developers/contributors with us this for this meeting - it certainly means a lot to me :) [21:36] :) [21:37] I thought that some upstream developers have expressed discontent with how certain situations have been handled in the past. However, I want Xubuntu to be well known as a constructive and active contributor to the free software ecosystem. [21:39] Being a good "neighbour" is important to Xubuntu and important to me :) [21:40] Thank you .. Xfce appreciates your concerns and welcomes an contributions [21:40] *any [21:40] Moe, Splendid! :) [21:40] Especially with our new, upcoming release [21:40] * pygi casts ++ on what Moe said :) [21:41] Moe, If there is anything we can do to help then please feel free to make it known :) [21:41] Incase it hasn't been noticed yet .. Xfce has put out a roadmap and milestone definition for Xfce 4.6 [21:41] * cody-somerville nods. [21:41] Very exciting times for Xfce I think :) [21:41] The next alpha release is scheduled for the 29th this month [21:42] wow, that's quite cool [21:42] Anything thats on the roadmap page and isn't done for 4.6 yet needs to be addressed [21:42] First and foremost, two compoments that really need attention right now are the menu editor (which hasn't even been started yet) and the mixer [21:42] roadmap url is...? [21:42] I imagine it would be helpful for us to upload those snapshots to our development version (as they'll receive extensive testing if we do so). [21:43] Yes? [21:43] http://wiki.xfce.org/roadmap_to_46 [21:43] Thanks [21:43] http://wiki.xfce.org/milestones_to_46 [21:43] cody-somerville: Absolutely [21:43] Beware though, the alpha release is by no means ready for serious production environments .. or even home computers [21:43] (if we have testers and bug triagers in xubuntu, and that's not the case actually) [21:43] We're in the process of integrating the configuration architecture [21:44] mr_pouit, You may not know this but Canonical actually does test Xubuntu ;] [21:44] Most of the backend code has been written .. and even some of the frontends have been migrated already [21:44] * cody-somerville nods @ Moe. [21:44] cody-somerville: but they do not forward the bugs [21:44] cody-somerville: that's why we have to do these ~13 srus? [21:44] and no one does since I lived [21:44] But anything apart from the core components is still lacking behind (as it is not required to be ready for nor ship with the alpha release) [21:44] jeromeg, mr_pouit [21:45] Moe, Is there any component in particular that individuals who are not familiar with developing Xfce4 would be able to jump in easily? [21:45] * pygi votes for xfburn [21:45] cody-somerville: yes ? [21:45] + 1 for xfburn [21:45] cody-somerville, we're willing to provide mentorship for whatever is needed anyway :) [21:46] pygi and david are very welcoming mentors [21:46]