[00:30] <nothlit> cody-somerville: http://core.joejaxx.net/~nothlit/xubuntu/ the .xcf is new stuff, open in gimp-- the pngs are the sketches i showed you @ the airport and paintovers so you can see how they look simplified... make sure you're zoomed out
[02:08] <pwnguin> nothlit: the overlays look more like cats =/
[21:07] <phomes> Hi. I'm trying the NewHuman theme in intrepid and I want to make the mines game look better with this dark theme. Do you have any links to instructions or advice for making apps more themeable?
[21:07] <nothlit> not sure about that
[21:08] <nothlit> but don't hardcode values and don't make up your own widgets etc unless necessary
[21:09] <phomes> I'm gnome-games dev btw. Some colors are hardcoded. Is there any way to "pick" 8 colors that contrast the background?
[21:29] <phomes> I don't really know where to go with this. Would you think that it is a theme question or a theme-engine question?
[21:31] <nothlit> If you have the HSL (sometimes known as hsv) numbers you could reverse/flip the L value and add an if statement that says if its between like 40 and 60, instead just add 25 to the value or something, and then just pick hues all around-- if you want them pleasing you'll probably want to dig into the agave app which has code for Complements, Split Complements, Triads, Tetrads, Analogous, and Monochromatic
[21:31] <nothlit> dunno if thats feasible though =p
[21:31] <nothlit> well
[21:32] <nothlit> actually you probably don't have to calculate a lightness/value
[21:32] <nothlit> you could just grab the text colour lightness and saturation which should be readable against the background anyways
[21:32] <nothlit> and just generate hues
[21:33] <phomes> hmm okay. Not sure I got all that :) But there are some pointers in there for stuff for me to look at. Thanks! :)
[21:39] <nothlit> i can clarify if you need, i don't mind monologueing technical matters at all, shameful habit though it is
[21:42] <phomes> no I think I got it now. Just had to look at hsl on wikipedia and try the agave app. Makes sense now :)
[21:43] <nothlit> ok
[21:44] <phomes> I'll try to do the trick with looking at the lighting. I can't pick the colors that well as I'm actually somewhat colorblind. But I'll let agave do the work there. This should get me going for now. Thanks a lot!
[21:45] <nothlit> about the second tip: you assume the text is quite readable against the background so you can pick the HSL from that and just modify the hue--and since it should be quite readable should compensate in the variances of the eye with percieved brightness and hue
[21:47] <phomes> ahh yes. That's better. Cool :) I'll give it a try and see what I come up with
[21:53] <phomes> last question :) Is there an easy way to obtain the text color? :) I apologise in advance of my complete theme ignorance :)
[21:55] <nothlit> i don't have much knowhow of themeing internals, you'd have to grab it from gtk somewhere
[21:56] <kwwii> re
[21:56] <nothlit> i know recent theme/engines have that 6 colour changeable base that older ones don't
[21:56] <kwwii> phomes: which text color?
[21:57] <nothlit> the one used for game backgrounds--dunno if that would be the input text/bg?
[21:57] <kwwii> it depends on the way the dev used widgets
[21:57] <kwwii> it will either be a base fg color or an input fg
[21:58] <kwwii> the "normal" document text color is the base color
[21:58] <phomes> I need to pick some contrasting colors for the numbers used in mines game
[21:58] <kwwii> hrm, we just wrote some algorythms in kde that do that
[21:58] <phomes> oh, nice
[21:59] <kwwii> the tricky part is to not just do offsets but to look at how the color is percieved by the eye
[21:59] <phomes> okay
[21:59] <nothlit> if you remove saturation from the picture it gets a lot less complicated ^^
[22:00] <kwwii> hehe, no doubt :-)
[22:01] <nothlit> kwwii: are you guys using a L*a*b lib or something?
[22:01] <kwwii> nothlit: yes, we use LAB
[22:01] <kwwii> it is simply one of the best color models available
[22:02] <kwwii> we spent weeks arguing over hsl vs hsv
[22:02] <nothlit> its pretty much the only good modern model for color perception =p
[22:02] <nothlit> colour*
[22:02] <nothlit> gah i typed it american
[22:04] <kwwii> lol
[22:04] <phomes> so I'd be best of reading up on lab and then use that?
[22:06] <kwwii> phomes: you will get the most satisfying results I would guess
[22:06] <nothlit> spent weeks arguing? HSL is 3dimensional, more similar to munsell, i'd figure there'd be no argument
[22:06] <nothlit> yeah if you want to use a lib then go ahead and use lab
[22:06] <kwwii> actually it has the hsv that kept everyone going
[22:06] <kwwii> and when you start talking about color and coding devs seem to lose their mind
[22:06] <phomes> he he
[22:06] <nothlit> o.O
[22:07] <nothlit> that is weird
[22:07] <nothlit> Lab and HSL are definitely far closer together than HSV
[22:07] <kwwii> exactly
[22:07] <phomes> does it in any way try to take common colorblindness into account?
[22:08] <nothlit> hsv is a sdfqwkeejqwlejk to paint with
[22:08] <kwwii> phomes: no, that is something that your code is going to have to do
[22:08] <nothlit> Lab should give you no problems if you differentiate based on Lightness
[22:09] <nothlit> imo theres simply too many models of colourblindness to account for to use hue differentiation
[22:09] <kwwii> yeah, that was going to be my point
[22:09] <phomes> okay. Lots of stuff to read up on :) Colorblind people will have to tweak xgamma like I do usually :)
[22:09] <kwwii> you can try to make it work for red/green since that is the most commons problem colors
[22:10] <kwwii> but like in the red/green case, anyone with that will see blue totally different (much more) than a normal seeing person
[22:12] <phomes> wow this turned out to be far more complicated than I had expected. I though this would be a common problem that apps would run into all the time...
[22:12] <kwwii> it is a common problem which very few apps do correctly
[22:12] <kwwii> I have seen a lot of crack done around this stuff in the past
[22:14] <phomes> he. I guess stuff like darker themes should expose this more. Perhaps I should propose a gnome goal to fix up apps that don't get this right...
[22:14] <kwwii> it'd make it a lot easier if people were just really colorblind :p
[22:14] <phomes> lol
[22:14] <kwwii> phomes: hehe, then our new dark theme in intrepid should expose some problems
[22:14] <kwwii> :-)
[22:15] <phomes> yeah. I see a lot of things already.
[22:15] <kwwii> if you note problme in the dark theme please let me know or file a bug
[22:15] <kwwii> s/problme/problem
[22:17] <nothlit> phomes: it is a common problem, its just generally been ignored, or even exacerbated
[22:21] <kwwii> well, the fact is that it would be impossible to make a system to handle all the different forms of colorblindness
[22:21] <phomes> kwwii: I will. Most notably right now is related to browsing. Guess there is not much to do about it. It just looks a bit strange when maximized. Webpages are often really bright.
[22:21] <kwwii> yeah, I want to keep the page bg white because most pages have a light bg but I know what you mean
[22:22] <kwwii> it is almost too much contrast
[22:22] <phomes> yeah
[22:22] <kwwii> which is funny because most people complain that dark themes do not have enough contrast
[22:22] <kwwii> after using one for a while I would argue the opposite
[22:24] <phomes> it's not easy
[22:25] <kwwii> I am still not sure if we will use a dark theme in the end but if we don't test it out it will never happen :-)
[22:31] <phomes> yeah. I think that there is a high demand though. Lots of people post pictures showing off their dark themes. I think people are ready for something really different. No more gray or shiny blue :)
[22:33] <kwwii> black is the new black :p
[22:33] <phomes> he
[22:36] <phomes> I gotta run. Thanks a lot for the help. I'll try to fix up mines and then see what else I can do in gnome. Looking forward to that dark theme :)
[22:36] <phomes> bye
[22:36] <kwwii> cool, have fun!
[22:36] <phomes> you too
[22:45] <nothlit> i meant in general, colours, dark themes etc
[22:46] <nothlit> interesting- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5001
[22:46] <nothlit> its only for windows but it looks like there is code
[22:46] <nothlit> i was looking for a java blocker addon too, dunno how it came up :)\
[22:52] <kwwii> hrm, that is interesting