[00:15] <beDrung> hi gnomefreak
[00:15] <gnomefreak> beDrung: hi was just talking about you :)
[00:15] <gnomefreak> beDrung: whats up with licenses on the 2 extensions?
[00:16] <gnomefreak> i didnt know you talked to asac so im lost on it i grabbed it but only got first block of license in the md5.js
[00:17] <beDrung> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/pwdhash-0806221510/pwdhash-1.5/debian/copyright
[00:17] <beDrung> all files have the same licence, except md5.js
[00:18] <beDrung> i am in contact with the upstream author. he will add a licence file to the source package. he said, that the package uses bsd as licence.
[00:19] <gnomefreak> beDrung: im guessing its a clause 2 license?
[00:19] <beDrung> clause 3 licence (e.g. http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/pwdhash-0806221510/pwdhash-1.5/chrome/stanford-pwdhash/content/domain-extractor.js )
[00:20] <gnomefreak> beDrung: ah perfect
[00:20] <beDrung> and md5.js says: * Distributed under the BSD License
[00:20] <gnomefreak> waiting on upstream to add the files?
[00:20] <gnomefreak> beDrung: yeah i know it didnt tell me anything i wanted to know
[00:22] <beDrung> yes, he wrote june, 26 that he will do it. so i am waiting.
[00:22] <gnomefreak> beDrung: ok thanks for update :)
[00:22] <beDrung> and for htmlvalidator: someone should check all files for the licence.
[00:25] <beDrung> if i remember correct opensp uses bsd licence and tidy uses mit
[00:57] <gnomefreak> beDrung: ok i will ask someone to look into it or i will when i get caught up
[00:57]  * gnomefreak gone good night
[03:03] <mcquaid> is it no longer required having an fstab entry for ones cdrom/dvdrom drive?
[03:07] <persia> mcquaid: The presence or absence of such an entry will affect behaviour of the system.  Not having an entry is current recommended.
[03:08] <mcquaid> ok thx.  since going to hardy from gutsy i can't successfully burn a data dvd.  failed in brasero, gnomebaker and k3b. trying to figure it out
[03:08] <mcquaid> i currently have an entry, will remove it.  but i find it a stretch thinking that could cause burning issues, but i'm not sure
[03:09] <mcquaid> i asked about this when i first upgraded to gutsy, that there should be a way to generate a new fstab post install
[03:15] <StevenK> persia: HAL handles it automagically?
[03:22] <persia> StevenK: Well, HAL provides the notification that media is available.  I believe that then is available over dbus, and the relevant system (gnome-volume-manager for GNOME) then performs a user-mount on the device in a new directory in /media.
[03:22] <StevenK> persia: Much like it does for USB keys and the like.
[03:22]  * persia is fuzzy on the details, as this was last investigated in Edgy or so
[03:22] <persia> StevenK: Exactly the same mechanism.
[03:24] <persia> This also works for any fixed device not in a blacklist that happens to be present in the system.  If a user connects a new hard drive to the SATA bus, and it is formatted with an acceptable filesystem, it will be mounted in /media at next boot.
[03:24] <persia> s/boot/login
[03:26] <persia> I think there is some permissions layer, due to a complaint that anyone logging in automatically got access to NTFS/HFS+ drives in dual-boot configurations, but don't remember the details.
[03:27] <persia> (and modern HFS+ is especially annoying, as it presents UNIX userids, etc. which then further confuse permissioning if not aligned)
[03:28] <StevenK> persia: You can have exactly the same problem with ext3 on a USB key, or NFS.
[03:29] <persia> StevenK: Well, for NFS I rarely consider it a "problem", but yes, any UNIX FS that gets pulled by the /media mounting gets confusing.  It seems optimised for FAT, which might be right in some cases, but isn't reliably always correct.
[03:30] <wgrant> (it's actually Nautilus which does volume mounting in GNOME now)
[03:31] <persia> So what does gnome-volume-manager do?
[03:32] <wgrant> Any device that isn't a volume, IIRC.
[03:33] <persia> Right.  All the more reason for programs to have names that are completely unrelated to function.  This wouldn't be confusing it this was gnome-frobnicator.
[03:33] <persia> s/it this/if it/
[03:34]  * StevenK chuckles
[03:39] <mcquaid> if i remove the fstab entry for my cdrom, would it stil lbe accessible outside gnome, like say in icewm?
[03:41] <wgrant> persia: It did do volumes until Hardy, I believe.
[03:41] <persia> wgrant: It did.  I'm just amused, as between Nautilus and the HID layer, there aren't a lot of devices left to be handled by g-v-m.
[03:42] <wgrant> System->Preferences->Removable Drives and Media shows a few.
[03:42] <wgrant> They're neither removable drives nor media, though.
[03:46] <persia> Well, digital cameras might be considered that: many can be represented as volumes.  Input devices is sadly lacking in several classes of device (joysticks, MIDI, 6D CAD controllers, "gaming" pads, sensors, etc.), and this panel doesn't actually have any influence over the activation.  PDAs are just an odd inclusion, and we've a whole separate Printer system.  Oh well.
[03:47] <persia> Maybe that can go away entirely for intrepid :)
[03:47] <StevenK> persia: Maybe GNOME are hoping printers will just quietly go away :-P
[03:48] <persia> StevenK: I guess, although printers are the part of that which I'm least likely to actually use (my printer has a parallel port).
[03:51] <persia> I prefer gizmod for input devices, use usbnet for PDAs, and would expect scanners and cameras to be accessible from within relevant applications, rather than taking action on device detection (would I have to close the scanning app every login if I had a scanner attached to the workstation?)
[03:58]  * StevenK sighs at bzr merge
[04:03] <lifeless> StevenK: ?
[04:03] <StevenK> lifeless: It is moving directories around, shifting files around and generally making a mess of my working tree
[04:04] <lifeless> StevenK: arbitrarily, or because whomever you are merging from did that?
[04:04] <StevenK> lifeless: Because it thinks there are conflicts
[04:04] <StevenK> I can't find said conflicts, or why it thinks they do ...
[04:05] <lifeless> StevenK: what type of conflicts is it claimin
[04:05] <StevenK> Text conflicts
[04:05] <lifeless> StevenK: text conflicts ondirectories?
[04:05]  * StevenK manages to crowbar the working directory back into a state that looks okay
[04:06] <StevenK> lifeless: I can point you at the two repositories, and tell you the merge command I ran, if that would help explain it?
[04:06] <lifeless> StevenK: yes, though if they are huge I'd rather see you pastebin the relevant stuff
[04:07] <lifeless> StevenK: anytime a merge is bad, if you think bzr should have been able to do better (if you can't understand teh conflicts and why) - please see #bzr immediately
[04:07] <lifeless> feedback is valuable
[04:07] <StevenK> lifeless: The repos are on LP and are small
[06:57] <YokoZar> Hmm, Intrepid Alpha 1 amd 64 doesn't log into gnome for me in vmware
[06:57] <YokoZar> As a fresh install
[07:16]  * TheMuso wipes sweat from his forehad after finally uploading initramfs-tools merge for intrepid. That was a big one.
[07:17]  * RAOF gives props to TheMuso for working on the bombs :)
[07:17] <TheMuso> RAOF: If you track intrepid-changes, I think you'll see what I mean.
[07:18] <RAOF> Not yet.  I track via the rss feed, and it's not updated for me yet.
[07:18] <TheMuso> RAOF: Right.
[07:19] <wgrant> It'll be another minute until it's accepted.
[07:21] <nxvl> there is a rss feed of -changes?
[07:21] <wgrant> Unofficially.
[07:26] <wgrant> TheMuso: Nasty merge, indeed!
[07:27] <StevenK> TheMuso: *Daaamn*
[07:28]  * wgrant thinks that TheMuso needs to now file a few dozen bugs in Debian to merge the changes.
[07:28] <wgrant> That would be even more fun.
[07:28] <TheMuso> wgrant: Thats the plan, but tomorrow. My head is in no shape for complex thought patterns atm.
[07:30] <nxvl> is there any way to use any chroot environmet or something to build packages in other architectures?
[07:31] <TheMuso> nxvl: You would have to set up a cross-compiler.
[07:31] <nxvl> i need to fix a problem on amd64 and i only have an i386 machine
[07:31] <RAOF> That's more difficult :)
[07:31] <nxvl> TheMuso: did you know if there is a wiki page about that?
[07:31] <TheMuso> nxvl: No, I am not aware of such a page.
[07:31] <RAOF> Actually, you could probably do some virtualisation magic.  Wasn't there a qemu frontendything?
[07:32] <nxvl> RAOF: virt-manager
[07:32] <nxvl> i'm using ppa, but it's kind of slow, and no the best way to do it
[07:32] <RAOF> Well, that'd work.  I actually meant a qemu frontend around pbuilder.
[07:32] <RAOF> qemu-x86-64-buildpackage
[07:32] <StevenK> TheMuso: "Fire bad, tree pretty" ?
[07:33] <RAOF> (May or may not exist)
[07:33] <wgrant> nxvl: Probably best to convince somebody else to do it.
[07:33] <TheMuso> StevenK: ??
[07:33] <wgrant> Or get access to an amd64 machine.
[07:33] <StevenK> TheMuso: It's a Buffy quote.
[07:33] <TheMuso> StevenK: oh.
[07:33] <RAOF> Right.  I've been known to hand out access to my amd64 box.
[07:34] <StevenK> TheMuso: Giles asks Buffy a complex question after a big-bad fight and her response was "My thought patterns are only capable of 'Fire bad, tree pretty'"
[07:34] <TheMuso> StevenK: hahaha right.
[07:34] <nxvl> also i have another problem
[07:35] <nxvl> i don't know why the build process is deleting a directory called "build" which i don't know why ships with upstream release
[07:35] <nxvl> and it's making my package fail to build twice in a row
[08:05] <nxvl> is there any way to search for packages that depends on others?
[08:05] <cody-somerville> nxvl, you can list reverse dependencies if thats what you mean
[08:05] <persia> nxvl: apt-cache rdepends covers the simple case.  debcheck has more complex cases.
[08:07]  * nxvl HUGS cody-somerville and persia 
[08:07] <cody-somerville> :)
[08:08] <nxvl> cody-somerville: mm
[08:08] <nxvl> err
[08:08] <nxvl> persia: it doesn't work
[08:08] <persia> nxvl: Please supply a referent for "it".
[08:08] <cody-somerville> nxvl, you'll need to be a bit more descriptive then that :)
[08:08] <nxvl> i'm trying to find packages that depend on chrpath to use them as examples
[08:08] <mvo> if you like guis, synaptic can do it too in its filters (and search)
[08:08] <Hobbsee> mvo!
[08:08]  * mvo waves
[08:09] <persia> Ah.  You want reverse build-depends.  For that you need grep-dctrl.
[08:09] <Hobbsee> mvo: i have a bug for you.
[08:09] <Hobbsee> mvo: so you might want to run away, instead of waving.
[08:09]  * mvo considers this
[08:12] <persia> nxvl: I think it's `grep-dctrl -FBuild-Depends chrpath -sPackage /var/lib/apt/lists/*intrepid_*_source_Sources
[08:12] <persia> `
[08:15] <nxvl> persia: there is not apt way to do it?
[08:16] <nxvl> persia: someone point me to some command some days ago but i didn't write it down, and it's not on my history
[08:16] <nxvl> :(
[08:16] <persia> nxvl: BNot for build dependencies.  You could perhaps add something to apt-cache or synaptic, if you wanted.
[08:18] <nxvl> i will se
[08:19] <slangasek> TheMuso: how's alsa-lib coming?
[08:20] <slangasek> TheMuso: I noticed some feedback suggesting there were some problems with the repo you'd set up, are those ironed out?
[08:22] <slangasek> asac: have you seen my follow-up to bug #210481?  Do you or another member of the mozilla team have time to fix that this week?
[08:25] <cody-somerville> mvo, when do you guys first start uploading gnome to Intrepid?
[08:25] <cody-somerville> mvo, as soon as the first alpha or beta is available or just the release candidates?
[08:29] <mvo> cody-somerville: uploading of the current devel version of gnome has already started, we do it as soon as gnome releases tarballs
[08:29] <mvo> cody-somerville: seb128 is the lead for this effort and usually a new tarball release goes very quickly into our archive as well
[08:30] <cody-somerville> Although I know this may be a question you can't answer, do you think that would be a good approach for Xubuntu too?
[08:30] <cody-somerville> Xfce4 just moved to a time-based release schedule
[08:30] <mvo> cody-somerville: this is great for testers, they get the new unstable gnome very quickly and easily
[08:30]  * cody-somerville nods.
[08:30] <cody-somerville> Well, upstream is worried about or modifications
[08:31] <cody-somerville> In the past, they have caused problems for them.
[08:31] <mvo> cody-somerville: it depends a bit on the xfce upstream community and the xubuntu community
[08:31] <mvo> I think its great if you have man-power (two-three decidated people) making regular updates and feed bugreports back to upstream
[08:31] <mvo> (that is what the gnome team is doing, also more people :)
[08:32] <mvo> and it also depends if xfce upstream has a reliable release process
[08:32] <mvo> that is aligned with our releases dates somewhat
[08:32] <cody-somerville> They're releasing in september
[08:32] <cody-somerville> we're releasing in October I believe
[08:32] <cody-somerville> so I think it'll work
[08:33] <mvo> but if that is the case, then it can be a great resource for upstream for additional testers (just running it from the livecd for people who are scared of running intrepid entirely)
[08:33]  * mvo nods
[08:33]  * cody-somerville nods.
[08:33] <mvo> you mentioned upstream might be concerned about it earlier?
[08:34] <mvo> maybe its a matter of explaining that its more of a help than a burden because of better feedback
[08:34] <mvo> (we do the same for compiz, upload git snapshots into the archive early and upstream likes that a lot)
[08:35]  * cody-somerville nods.
[08:36] <seb128> mvo: well, he mentioned that distro changes were an issue
[08:37] <seb128> not sure what sort of changes they are doing though and why that's an issue
[08:37] <mvo> hm, those should be discussed with uptream again I guess - what kinds of changes are we talking about?
[08:37] <seb128> but we try to have a low delta for GNOME
[08:37] <cody-somerville> It might have been more to do with Xfce4 upstream not getting along well with Jani Monoses
[08:37] <cody-somerville> Which is a shame : (
[08:38] <cody-somerville> What was happening was that Xubuntu was shipping SVN with patches, lol
[08:39] <cody-somerville> And as you know, once a release becomes stable we don't just randomly update it with svn snapshots
[08:39] <slangasek> cody-somerville: in keeping with tradition, 8.10 will definitely be released in the 10th month of the year; however, in the event of unforeseen setbacks I'm prepared to switch to the pre-Julian Roman calendar
[08:40] <dholbach> good morning
[08:40] <persia> slangasek: Please don't: it gets very close to end-of-year stuff, and hurts the immediate blush of SRUs.
[08:41] <StevenK> slangasek: Bwahaha
[08:41] <slangasek> persia: er, I hope you don't mean to say you were taking me seriously :)
[08:42]  * cody-somerville has a number of SRUs to do sadly.
[08:42] <cody-somerville> I wish I had been able to get them done in time for .1 but work ate up all my time with getting our product ready for the release of the new iPhone
[08:42] <persia> slangasek: Well, there was 6.06, so I'm yet convinced it's impossible to make such a switch, and you've a better rationale than some.
[08:47] <seb128> hello dholbach
[08:47] <dholbach> hi seb128
[08:50] <mvo> hey dholbach!
[08:52] <dholbach> hiya mvo
[08:53] <seb128> hello mvo
[08:53] <mvo> hey seb128!
[09:02] <emgent> morning
[09:03] <halex> moin emgent
[09:13] <emgent> heya halex
[09:37] <asac> slangasek: when is 8.04.1 release date?
[09:37] <slangasek> asac: Thursday
[09:37] <cjwatson> how goes the certification side of things?
[09:38] <slangasek> cr3 gave us a clean bill of health, with the exception of one wireless issue which was not a regression vs. 8.04 and remains unresolved
[09:38] <cjwatson> oh, good news
[09:39] <slangasek> that was before the last l-r-m change, so I'll ask him today for another run
[09:51] <asac> slangasek: for 210481 i can include the fix in the security upload that is about to go out
[09:51] <slangasek> asac: a security upload for ff2?
[09:51] <asac> slangasek: yes. on Wed is target date
[09:52] <dholbach> thekorn: can we distinguish between types of descriptions in py-lp-bugs?
[09:52] <asac> slangasek: all the bits are loaded ... e..g build and ready to be released, but since ffox 2 is in universe I could reupload it (after checking with jdstrand that the builders have cycles atm)
[09:53] <slangasek> asac: ok, that'd be swell :)
[09:54] <thekorn> dholbach: sorry, but which types of descriptions do you mean?
[09:55] <dholbach> erm sorry
[09:55] <dholbach> thekorn: SUBscriptions :)
[09:56] <thekorn> dholbach: ok, that's possible but only in the html mode
[09:57] <thekorn> let me find an example
[09:57] <dholbach> thanks a lot Markus
[09:58] <\sh> direct_list=self.bugReport.get_subscriptions_category("directly")
[09:58] <\sh>         via_duplicates=self.bugReport.get_subscriptions_category("duplicates")
[09:58] <\sh>         also_notified=self.bugReport.get_subscriptions_category("notified")
[09:58] <\sh> you mean those subscriptions, right?
[09:58] <dholbach> ah perfect
[09:58] <dholbach> thanks \sh
[09:59] <\sh> dholbach: welcome
[10:01]  * thekorn is too slooow again
[10:01] <\sh> thekorn: na...I just have eclipse open with the source ;)
[10:10] <asac> slangasek: we currently have http://paste.ubuntu.com/23904/ ... i guess that we have to bump that on every security update :/
[10:11] <asac> or start to use funny versions for ffox updates
[10:11] <wgrant> Why does it need to conflict with a lower version of itself?
[10:11] <asac> wgrant: Package: firefox-2
[10:12] <wgrant> Why does it need to be so strict, even so?
[10:12] <asac> wgrant: good point
[10:12] <wgrant> What is its purpose?
[10:13] <persia> Wouldn't it help force the upgrade case if someone had the ancient package around?
[10:13] <slangasek> asac: hmm? surely you should just update it once, to (<< $minimal_hardy_version) ?
[10:13] <Koon> dholbach: you sponsored the pam-pgsql upload for hardy, would you be interested in sponsoring my fakesync for intrepid ? Fixes a security hole.
[10:13] <persia> (firefox -> firefox-2)
[10:13] <asac> slangasek: guess << 3
[10:13] <wgrant> slangasek: That's what I thought.
[10:14] <slangasek> asac: I think so, yes.
[10:14] <asac> k. will do that then
[10:51] <dholbach> Koon: did I? is your fakesync in the sponsoring queue?
[10:53] <Koon> dholbach: I just subscribed ubuntu-universe-sponsors, following persia's advice.
[10:54] <dholbach> ok great
[10:54] <dholbach> I'll triage the quee later on
[10:54] <dholbach> queue
[10:54] <Koon> dholbach: thx
[11:20] <ogra> siretart, hmm, your rss-glx upload wil break al screensavers that have sound (not thatthis is a bad thing, but expect some bug fallout as last uploader)
[11:20] <ogra> (people like to complain about such stuff)
[11:22] <persia> ogra: Aren't there already none of those as a result of bug #21507 ?
[11:23] <ogra> there are mre than skyrockat afaik and this one just ha the volume set to zero, you can easily swithc it back on
[11:23] <ogra> *skyrocket
[11:26] <ogra> persia, i dont really care (especially since my name isnt the last uploader here :) and i gave screensavers to tedg quite a while ago ... ) but there are many people ot there that use xscreensaver for example where you have the opportunity to adjust volume of a single screensaver, they will surely open bugs for that
[11:30] <siretart> ogra: are you serious with people complaining that their screensaver won't make any noise anymore?
[11:30] <siretart> that is a so unbelievable silly feature to me that I have to ask this question
[11:31] <ogra> siretart, the bug abouve definately had the same (less funny though) in the opposite direction, yes :)
[11:31] <ogra> take over screensavers for a release, you will encounter the funniest bugreports :)
[11:32] <ogra> siretart, i totally agree with you about the sillyness, that was just a warning that people will surely notice it and complain
[11:32] <siretart> ogra: I think having openal in universe is way more desireable than having screensavers making silly noises
[11:32] <siretart> and I'm willing to argue about this in front of the TB
[11:33] <ogra> is rss-glx realy the only one to use it ? i would have expected some sdl games etc to use it too
[11:33] <ogra> no need to involve the TB here unless the bugs get to tricky :)
[11:34] <siretart> ogra: AFAIK all those packages are in universe. if you happen to notice another package in main using openal, please notify me
[11:35] <ogra> will do so, thanks for caring for the breakage
[11:35] <persia> ogra: SDL games use SDL sound.  SDL sound can use several backends, openal included.  I believe it uses ALSA by default.
[11:35] <ogra> (and for tagging your name on the screensavers *G*)
[11:38] <siretart> and since there is no libsdl1.2debian-openal, sdl is not a problem here
[11:39] <siretart> ogra: you need openal for games that feature *spacial* sound. having a screensaver with *spacial* sound supported is so unbelievably silly to my mind that I cannot express it
[11:39] <ogra> well, if you want to hear the rockets flying over your head ....
[11:39] <ogra> :)
[11:40] <siretart> exactly
[11:40] <persia> ogra: And at angles, so you hear them getting louder, and in the right direction?  Isn't it easier to code it to just swoop?  Anyway, aren't screen savers supposed to avoid CRT burn-in, while letting your computer sleep?
[11:41] <ogra> woah
[11:41] <ogra> http://parker1.co.uk/eternity/
[11:41] <ogra> we should urgently get these in
[11:41] <broonie> A lot of people use them because they look pretty :)
[11:41]  * ogra poders for tedg to wake up
[11:42] <siretart> persia seems to agree with me :)
[11:42] <ogra> persia, they were when CRTs showed green text  ... today they are to support global warming :)
[11:43] <persia> ogra: I had more burn-in on polychromatic CRTs than on monochromatic ones.  I have one CRT that can't get bright enough to use anymore, due to phosphor loss.
[11:44] <siretart> ogra: do they feature spacial sound? ;)
[11:44] <sistpoty|work> siretart: rss-glx does
[11:44] <ogra> siretart, patches accepted, i'm sure :)
[11:44] <sistpoty|work> siretart: though it imho should play mp3/ogg instead *g*
[11:45] <slangasek> asac: mmm, I should probably ask here for realtime feedback - what are your plans for bug #230209?
[11:45] <slangasek> asac: if you think this still belongs in 8.04.1, I need it in the archive today
[11:46] <siretart> sistpoty|work: not anymore, I disabled openal in rss-glx in the last upload
[11:47] <siretart> ogra: /me runs away. screeming
[11:47] <ogra> heh
[11:47] <sistpoty|work> heh
[11:48] <ion_> benc: I’m sure you’ve already thought of what i’m saying, but here goes anyway: there probably should be a package that contains a /etc/kernel/prerm.d script that generates a last-good-boot from the current running system if one doesn’t exist, and the version of apt that removes the NeverAutoRemove rules from /e/a/a/01autoremove probably should depend on that package, in order to make sure a last-good-boot exists before any kernels are autoremoved in ...
[11:48] <ion_> ... case the user happens to be running an earlier kernel because the newest one doesn’t boot for her.
[11:49] <asac> slangasek: not needed imo. I will talk to ArneGoetje about including it in the usual language pack update batch
[11:49] <slangasek> asac: ok, unmilestoning, thanks
[11:51] <asac> slangasek: i dropped  a comment too :)
[12:00] <ogra> ScottK, bug 235135, that fix wont work generally and for everyone... if you use asound-plugins instead of libflashsupport while pulseaudio is running (and claiming the device) on a non dmix capable soundcard, you wont have any sound from flash at all
[12:23] <mantiena> hi all
[12:27] <mantiena> I'm going to test﻿ 8.04.1 candidate images﻿, m﻿aybe someone knows - are there any important bugs, which I should test with Ubuntu 8.04.1 candidate from http://﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/hardy/ ?
[12:28] <ln-> ...
[12:29] <halex> er...
[12:29] <ln-> ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE
[12:31] <ln-> how did that even happen?
[12:33] <Pici> mantiena: Have you checked out #ubuntu-testing ? They might be able to point you in the right direction.
[12:33] <Spads> ln-: guh, unicode allows for all sorts of horror.  Try pasting a zillion combining characters with nothing to combine to sometime.  irssi in screen goes completely spare
[12:37] <mantiena> Pici: I already asked this question at ubuntu-testing, but no answer :( in any case - downloading takes about 3 hours, so, I have some time to get an answer :)
[12:44] <ScottK> ogra: I'm looking for a good recommendation on how to approach that bug.
[12:45] <ogra> if we knew one hadry wouldnt suck so much with flash :)
[12:46] <ogra> the proper solution would be to have libflashsupport fixed, but that requires internal knowledge of flash code ...
[12:48] <ogra> pulse expects to hog the device completely with nothing interfering .... but flash with pulse needs libflashsupport ... all other solutions wil end up with concurret access to the sound device which works or doesnt depending on the dmix capability of your driver/card
[12:50] <ScottK> OK.  So maybe good is the wrong word.
[12:50] <ogra> its kind of gambling to rely on dmix here but probably the only solution, i just wanted to point out that you wont fix it for everyone with either solution ... (one opportunity would be to just hide the crash through using nspluginwrapper in 32bit like fedora does, but thats no oportunity for hardy and also doesnt *feel* right)
[12:50] <ScottK> How about least bad.
[12:50] <ogra> yeah, "sucks least" is probably the right term :)
[12:51] <ScottK> It just seemed that 'everyone will use pulse by default' was not the right assumption to use.
[12:52] <ogra> well, if libflahsupport would work as it did in gutsy it would all be fine ... but flash changed and the lib didnt keep up
[12:55] <Company> ubuntu should just default to pulse everywhere
[12:55] <Company> and drop dmix
[12:55] <Company> well, maybe not, because that means more poeple use swfdec instead of closed source
[12:56] <ScottK> Company: Hardy is what it is at this point and won't change at that level.  It's to late for should.
[12:57] <Company> oh right
[12:57] <Company> i was thinking intrepid here
[12:57] <ogra> Company, right, thats what we will likely do
[12:58] <Company> but flash isn't the only one talking to dmix - or did you make mplayer etc talk to pulse, too?
[12:58] <ogra> i think mplayer has an opportunity, i'm not much into players myself
[12:58] <ogra> siretart would surely know ...
[12:59] <Company> i don't have much of a clue about the hardy situation as i have everything customized - life of an upstream developer
[12:59] <wgrant> mplayer defaults to pulse.
[13:00] <wgrant> Or maybe I didn't end up doing that.
[13:00] <wgrant> But it has the option.
[13:00] <Company> alsa has the option to default to pulse, too ;)
[13:00] <ogra> yes, thats how we do remote sound in LTSP
[13:00] <persia> Company: Yes, but as pulse uses ALSA for output, that ends up being a little odd.
[13:01] <Company> persia: nope
[13:01] <Company> persia: pulse only takes hardware devices
[13:01] <ogra> well, it uses the alsa driver to do so
[13:01] <Company> persia: fedora 9 does it that way
[13:01] <ogra> (not the libs tough)
[13:02] <Company> so they transparently moved all apps to pulse
[13:02] <Company> almost transparently
[13:02] <ogra> heh
[13:02] <Company> i was under the impression pulse only replaced esd in hardy
[13:02] <persia> Company: Almost transparently.  There's a number of side effects of the app -> alsa -> pulse -> alsa -> HW loop, but it's more transparent than hardy.
[13:03] <Company> persia: i'm aware of the problems (like no mmap access) - but the fedora guys seemed pretty happy
[13:04] <Company> you could hack libflashsupport to check for a pulse output in alsa and if it exists prefer that over default
[13:05] <Company> dunno if that requires hacking alsa config to provide one though
[13:06] <ogra> that wont keep libflashsupport from crashing firefox
[13:06] <ogra> first of all libflashsupport needs to actually not segfault before we can even think about going on using it :)
[13:07] <Company> oh, it's that bad?
[13:07] <Company> ignore me then :)
[13:07] <ion_> nspluginwrapper for 32bit would be nice indeed.
[13:07] <ogra> it tears down FF if you go back and forward on a youtube site
[13:07] <ogra> ion_, well, it only hides the prob
[13:08] <Company> i think you deserve it for not going entirely free :p
[13:08] <ion_> Yes, but as long as we have closed-source plugins, it might be best to hide the problem. :-)
[13:08] <ogra> (and surely many others as well, which is a bad sideeffect since such bugs wont be reported ot fixed)
[13:08] <Company> seeing flash and nvidia blow up in your face is nice :p
[13:08] <ogra> buy intel :)
[13:09] <Company> i have intel
[13:09] <ogra> well, that was a more generally meant shameless advert :)
[13:10] <Company> ubuntu should have more shameless adverts
[13:10] <ogra> heh
[13:10] <Company> put "everything works better than nvidia" on the cds
[13:11] <ion_> fglrx doesn’t. :-P
[13:11] <ogra> "you have to play this CD backwards to make it run on nvidia hardware"
[13:20] <laga> heh
[13:23] <emgent> morning
[13:29] <TheMuso> slangasek: Nobody has got back to me with anything. I'm going to post instructions to the bug once again to try and get people to help. If nothing happens, theres not much I can do.
[13:44] <alex-weej> every time there's a kernel update it breaks my wireless, i have to rebuild svn madwifi and install it in place of the distributed madwifi
[13:44] <persia> alex-weej: What is the difference between the two that causes you to do this?
[13:45] <Hobbsee> alex-weej: it builds kernel-api-specific modules?
[13:45] <alex-weej> possibly... let me try to load the distributed ones. i'll be back in 2 minutes!
[13:51] <alex-weej> http://pastebin.ca/1058984
[13:51] <alex-weej> not much to see...
[13:51] <alex-weej> with the distro modules from l-r-m, n-m doesn't even think i have a wlan adapter
[13:51] <wgrant> alex-weej: It's not every kernel update...
[13:51] <wgrant> Just ABI-breaking ones.
[13:52] <alex-weej> basically all of them :P
[13:52] <alex-weej> but yeah
[13:52] <persia> alex-weej: The right way to fix that is to determine what bit you need to make your device work, and ensure that this is available in the next update.
[13:52] <alex-weej> i was simply trying to say that with every new kernel release, the madwifi version is still ancient
[13:52] <alex-weej> or just built wrong
[13:52] <alex-weej> cause this has been going on for a very long time
[13:54] <persia> alex-weej: It likely needs someone with affected hardware (e.g. you) to investigate, and generate a good bug report.
[14:07] <alex-weej> is already up here actually. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24/+bug/122703
[14:08] <alex-weej> i wanted to test intrepid actually... see if it was fixed
[14:08] <alex-weej> but no Live CD :(
[14:09] <persia> alex-weej: I think that bug tells the story well.  Upstream keeps deciding that the versions you need aren't ready for release, and the kernel developers respect their opinion.
[14:10] <alex-weej> yeah i see that myself now.
[14:10] <persia> Probably best to update one of the upstream tickets with your successful test report and help build confidence in the driver upstream, if it works for you.
[14:10] <alex-weej> annoying, as they claim all their efforts are going on ath5k now
[14:10] <alex-weej> and this chipset won't be supported for a while as there's no open HAL for it
[14:53] <BenC> pitti, doko, cjwatson: Is it possible to get makedumpfile MIRd today? :)
[14:57]  * cjwatson <- not in ubuntu-mir and would rather not
[15:00] <BenC> cjwatson: ah, thought you were for some reason
[15:08] <croessner> Hi, somebody here, having experiences with installing hardy on Apple Xserve Intel? Where can I get (commercial) support on that?
[15:10] <Pici> croessner: This isnt a support channel. You might be able to find free help in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-server Canonical.com sells support, although I do not know the specifics of what hardware they will support it on.
[15:12] <croessner> Pici, thx, I know that this is not a support channel. At the other side, I did not know where to ask elsewhere. All the commercial supporters are PC supporters not Apple Xserve. So I thought asking the devs for help.
[15:13] <BenC> croessner: canonical would be able to provide more information on support contracts
[15:24] <ubuntuzistheneww> ok who  is the guy making all the restart jokes
[15:24] <ubuntuzistheneww> i just updated samba and openssl and i am told to reboot, what kind of joke is it ?
[15:24] <ubuntuzistheneww> why don't i go use windows that is better than this ?
[15:24] <ion_> Eh.
[15:24] <ion_> Please read the topic.
[15:24] <ubuntuzistheneww> sorry to be rude
[15:25] <ubuntuzistheneww> yeah i'm in here complaining to the devs
[15:25] <cjwatson> you don't have to reboot if you're sure that you've restarted everything using the relevant libraries
[15:25] <ubuntuzistheneww> you guys. this isn't an issue or a bug
[15:25] <ubuntuzistheneww> cjwatson: why doesn't ubuntu just do that for me ?
[15:25] <cjwatson> unfortunately, while restarting server processes is relatively straightforward and we do that, restarting clients is infeasible
[15:25] <ubuntuzistheneww> this is not a good way to keep new users
[15:25] <ion_> So, you’d rather tell newbies ”please restart everything that depends on the following libraries”?
[15:25] <cjwatson> and it can actually matter for the openssl updates, I'm afraid
[15:26] <ubuntuzistheneww> cjwatson: yeah i have done 4 in the past month why is that ?
[15:26] <ubuntuzistheneww> my debian box has had about 2ish
[15:26] <cjwatson> see the changelogs
[15:27] <cjwatson> we provide extensive documentation with each update, for those interested in digging
[15:27] <ubuntuzistheneww> can you guys up in in dev fix your distro so we don't get new users jumping over to vista. which reboots far less often
[15:27] <ubuntuzistheneww> no offense
[15:27] <joaopinto> ubuntuzistheneww, like if new users had major concerns with the need to reboot, specially when they get a proper notification...
[15:27] <cjwatson> we're not really interested in a debate of this form
[15:27] <cjwatson> bugs are bugs, and are given priorities
[15:27] <cjwatson> but sometimes we just disagree
[15:27] <ubuntuzistheneww> this is a bug
[15:27] <ubuntuzistheneww> i'm filing a bug
[15:27] <cjwatson> it's not especially clear that it is
[15:28] <ubuntuzistheneww> its a bug
[15:28] <ubuntuzistheneww> thank you
[15:28] <ion_> Meh.
[15:28]  * cjwatson shrugs, if he doesn't even want to listen to us trying to explain ...
[15:30] <ion_> benc: Have you had a chance to look at my email (the grub last-good-boot debdiff), btw?
[15:35] <ubuntuzistheneww> i have filed a bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/244250 good day
[15:36] <ion_> I wonder how *uptime* is relevant.
[15:36] <soren> im in ur apt eeting ur uptimez..
[15:42] <ScottK> If you're selling hosting services and have quality of service provisions in the contract every reboot can cost you.
[15:43] <cjwatson> I'm addressing the bug report; there is at least one real issue buried in there, I think
[15:43] <sistpoty|work> ScottK: but then you wouldn't want a single point of failure as well, like only one box for a service? ;)
[15:44] <ion_> scottk: Such servers aren’t running a desktop that suggests a user to reboot. It is expected that such servers have admins that can handle the restarting of services in a way they see fit.
[15:44] <ScottK> True.
[15:45] <BenC> ion_: yeah
[15:45] <broonie> OTOH, if you've got lots of state open then then rebooting can be rather inconvenient.
[15:47] <cjwatson> please see my comments in the bug report
[15:48] <ion_> benc: When the apt rule for not autoremoving old kernels is removed, perhaps apt should have a versioned dependency on grub (or another package to which the last-good-boot scripts may be split to from grub), in order to make sure a last-good-boot exists when the kernels are finally autoremoved.
[15:48] <lamont> Jun 30 08:46:47 gw kernel: [ 1273.611780] audit(1214837207.018:23): type=1503 operation="inode_permission" requested_mask="::w" denied_mask="::w" name="/var/cache/bind/" pid=20209 profile="/usr/sbin/named" namespace="default"
[15:48]  * lamont curses apparmor
[15:50] <BenC> ion_: we can't add a dependency
[15:51] <BenC> ion_: and we don't support partial upgrades...plus, not having last-good-boot (even in some skewed fashion) doesn't break anything
[15:53] <ion_> benc: I was thinking of a case where someone upgrades from, say, hardy to intrepid and afterwards runs an aptitude command that autoremoves old kernels, only to reboot later and notice that the intrepid kernel doesn’t boot for her.
[15:53] <ion_> Would be nice if *something* created an initial last-good-boot from the running system. Perhaps grub postinst?
[15:54] <BenC> ion_: I thought the /etc/kernel/prerm.d/last-good-boot would handle that case
[15:54] <cjwatson> we do necessarily have to support partial upgrades to some extent
[15:54] <cjwatson> with the best of good will, upgrades will fail sometimes, and we don't want to leave the user's system unbootable in the middle of it
[15:54] <BenC> cjwatson: well, to the extent that it works
[15:55] <cjwatson> we should try to avoid making it worse, as a general rule ...
[15:55] <mkrufky> can we merge the fix for bug #244005 (pull request included in bug report) ...  or do I have to send it to kernel team?
[15:56] <BenC> a kernel doesn't really allow itself to be uninstalled if it is the currently running kernel, IIRC
[15:56] <ion_> benc: Hm, that might be true... I was just thinking it would be best to make sure /etc/kernel/prerm.d/last-good-boot is already installed when removing the NoAutoRemove rules.
[15:57] <BenC> maybe kernel-helper shouldn't be part of grub then...not sure where to put it
[15:57] <ion_> Perhaps a separate last-good-boot package, which just contains kernel-helper and the /etc scripts?
[15:58] <BenC> I feel like there should be someplace else to put it (if for no other reason than to avoid yet another MIR :)
[15:58] <ion_> Smaller delta from Debian’s grub as well.
[15:59] <BenC> the extra script in grub doesn't really bother me delta wise...the changes to update-grub would still be there
[15:59] <ion_> Yeah
[16:07] <wgrant> 5~/win 3
[16:09] <Riddell> asac: what's the plan with network-manager?
[16:10] <asac> Riddell: bits are in ~network-manager PPA if you want to test.
[16:10] <asac> Riddell: is knetworkmanager more or less ready for 0.7?
[16:11] <Riddell> asac: no idea, I'll grab those ~network-manager packages and see if I can get anything working
[16:11] <Riddell> it should be, suse uses it for opensuse 11 I believe
[16:12] <asac> Riddell: yeah right. the gnome applet still needs a bunch of work too, so i if it basically works it should be fine
[16:14] <dbmoodb> oh hi does any one know why -f --- the option to fsck on reboot was removed from ubuntu ?
[16:16] <Spads_> dbmoodb: experimentally, I can tell you that touching /forcefsck (the effect of -f on shutdown was to create this file) does have the desired effect on boot
[16:17] <dbmoodb> yes but was was it removed ...
[16:18] <dbmoodb> why*
[16:18] <Riddell> asac: network-manager-0.7~~svn20080628t003601+eni2 not compiling for me in intrepid http://paste.ubuntu.com/23994/
[16:18] <ion_> Likely nobody happened to implement it in the Upstart reimplementation of the command.
[16:18] <dbmoodb> if all it does is make do that operation ... why is the option in upstart ?
[16:19] <dbmoodb> not in *
[16:19] <asac> Riddell: hmm. dont you have hardy to test?
[16:19]  * ion_ is compelled to repeat his previous line
[16:20] <asac> Riddell: you might be able to override CFLAGS so that warnings dont make compiler bail out for now
[16:42] <mario_limonciell> pitti, ping.  if you have a moment, I wanted to chat with you on the modalias detection on intrepid for fglrx/nvidia and jockey
[16:57] <EtienneG> question about debconf (yeah!)
[16:57] <EtienneG> using DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive, should it still display notes of priority critical that are unseen ?
[16:58] <EtienneG> (ie, ssh/vulnerable_host_keys)
[16:59] <cjwatson> EtienneG: no - noninteractive means noninteractive, regardless of priority
[16:59] <mario_limonciell> pitti, oh I just saw your message that you are on holiday until wed.  for the package fglrx-modaliases, currently we're dropping the aliases in /usr/share/modaliases/fglrx-modules.alias.override.  It doesn't seem that this is currently in the search path for Jockey.  What path did you want things to be put in instead so that detection worked properly?
[16:59] <cjwatson> EtienneG: if you want "only ask critical questions", use an interactive frontend with appropriate priority configured
[16:59] <EtienneG> cjwatson, thanks, that confirm my understanding
[17:00] <cjwatson> EtienneG: I'm curious as to what's behind your question
[17:01] <EtienneG> cjwatson, someone complains that DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive still prompt for openssh-server and ssl-cert (vuln cert/host keys), and on config file replacements
[17:02] <EtienneG> cjwatson, I think the way he set DEBIAN_FRONTEND is wrong; that is what I am going to check now
[17:02] <cjwatson> EtienneG: right
[17:02] <cjwatson> EtienneG: note that configuration file replacements are often *not* through debconf
[17:02] <cjwatson> DEBIAN_FRONTEND will not affect many of those in the slightest
[17:02] <EtienneG> cjwatson, thanks, that is something else that needs to be taken into account
[17:03] <cjwatson> we don't have a good solution to that across the board; some packages use ucf which is debconf-based, but really dpkg's own prompts need to be glued into debconf; that will take a while yet
[17:03] <EtienneG> cjwatson, ok, I see
[17:04] <EtienneG> the two packages that have prompted for conf file replacement are clamav-freshclam and samba-common
[17:04] <EtienneG> I will investigate
[17:04] <EtienneG> cjwatson, assuming conf file is indeed managed without the help of debconf, should a bug be filed ?
[17:04] <EtienneG> it is debatable, I am not too sure
[17:11] <cjwatson> EtienneG: not generally
[17:11] <cjwatson> EtienneG: it needs to be fixed centrally rather than piecemeal
[17:12] <EtienneG> 'k
[17:12] <cjwatson> EtienneG: incautious mucking about with configuration file handling code can be dangerous, so I don't want to encourage it to be done widely by people not very familiar with the packages
[17:12] <EtienneG> cjwatson, I am all good that
[17:12] <cjwatson> EtienneG: however: if the user did not modify the configuration file in question and still gets prompted, then that is definitely a bug
[17:13] <EtienneG> cjwatson, re: ucf, should it honor DEBIAN_FRONTEND or not?
[17:13] <cjwatson> EtienneG: this sort of thing sometimes happens when a package maintainer decides to edit the file in maintainer scripts as well as managing the file with dpkg, which is explicitly forbidden in the policy manual
[17:13] <cjwatson> EtienneG: ucf asks all its questions through debconf and therefore automatically honours DEBIAN_FRONTEND
[17:14] <EtienneG> cjwatson, samba-common does indeed some mucking around smb.conf, if I read the postinst correctly
[17:14] <EtienneG> sed -e ...
[17:15] <cjwatson> samba -> painful case
[17:15] <cjwatson> slangasek: ^-- ?
[18:09] <sbeattie> calc: is the openoffice update intended to make 8.04.1 release?
[18:11] <calc> sbeattie: yes, probably need to talk to slangasek about whether it can still make it, sine it didn't get accepted until today
[18:11] <calc> s/sine/since/
[18:11] <calc> it fixes a crasher bug on gnome and kde
[18:11] <sbeattie> okay.
[18:11] <calc> apparently it affects many people, just not me :-\
[18:12] <calc> so it took me a while to be able to track it down
[18:13] <sbeattie> Eww. Is that bug 236676?
[18:13] <ubott2> Launchpad bug 236676 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice 2.4 in Hardy AMD64, Locking assertion failure" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/236676
[18:13] <calc> yes
[18:13] <calc> it should be done in about 14hr on ia64 (if it takes as long as usual)
[18:14] <calc> iirc it was actually caused by heap corruption in xrandr
[18:14] <calc> but the symptoms were really strange :)
[18:17] <jcristau> calc: was that ever fixed, other than by disabling the randr thing in ooo?
[18:17] <calc> jcristau: from what i could tell in the ooo-build changelog yes
[18:17] <jcristau> ok
[18:18] <calc> yea they aren't disabling randr anymore afaict
[19:35] <cody-somerville> slangasek, ping
[20:12] <smagoun> evand: do you have a minute to chat about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USBInstallationImages ? Are you writing the ISO-->USB tool from scratch?
[20:20] <evand> smagoun: sure.
[20:20] <evand> smagoun: indeed, as it stands it's going to be written from scratch.
[20:22] <smagoun> evand: Have you considered using Fedora's liveusb-creator? It looks like it does everything the Ubuntu tool needs, and as an added bonus it works on windows
[20:24] <evand> smagoun: unfortunately I think this is going to be a little too tied to Ubuntu to reuse their tool.  Also, we can't use Qt for it as we'd like to put it on the CD and there is not enough space for Qt on that.
[20:24] <evand> I will take a closer look though and confirm though.
[20:27] <smagoun> evand: ah, ok. I assume that the Ubuntu tool doesn't exist yet?
[20:27] <evand> smagoun: correct
[20:32] <slangasek> cody-somerville: pong
[20:33] <slangasek> TheMuso: hrm, I see follow-ups to bug #191027 with no reply from you, though
[20:33] <ubott2> Launchpad bug 191027 in totem ""Failed to connect stream: Invalid argument"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191027
[20:34] <SolarWar> i'm trying to build my own ubuntu package- is this the correct place to ask questions?
[20:35] <thom> nope; try #ubuntu-motu
[20:36] <thom> this is for development of the core OS :)
[20:38] <SolarWar> oh okay :)
[20:39] <slangasek> cjwatson: so, samba-common uses ucf, and I don't see any evidence that ucf would fail to honor DEBIAN_FRONTEND
[20:39] <slangasek> cjwatson: so I don't know what that's about
[20:42] <ScottK> smagoun: Of course the Kubuntu CD already has QT on it, so maybe for Kubuntu.
[20:42] <ogra> heh
[20:46] <cjwatson> ScottK: I doubt we'd want a different backend for different flavours
[20:47] <cjwatson> if the Fedora one has frontend/backend separation then we could work with it
[20:47] <ScottK> Right, so we start with Kubuntu and Ubuntu can catch up for once.
[20:47] <ScottK> Yes.
[20:50] <ogra> smagoun, given that -mobile looks into a wrapper around livecd-rootfs for building USB capable images my bet would be that its easier for you to build native images with that instead of converting isos
[20:53]  * cjwatson would tend to agree
[20:53] <smagoun> ogra: my current plan is to teach liveusb-creator to install an existing Image Creator image onto a USB drive, rather than deal with an ISO directly or wait for -mobile to get something working. I need something that a) exists today b) works on windows and c) can be used by mere humans. liveusb-creator seems to be the only option.
[20:57] <ogra> well, the changes we need in livecd-rootfs are pretty minor and it would take me a day or two to adjust my classmate builder tool for using a squashfs built with changed livecd-rootfs ... the planned wrapper script will likely work similar to my tool or the virtual image builder scripts .... all operate quite similar with small differences
[20:58] <mkrufky> brb
[21:00] <ogra> smagoun, we dont have liveusb-creator anywhere in the distro and i wouldnt expect it to work out of te box with an ubuntu setup ... so time has to be invested in any case, doing that on the existing proven tools we will as well go on using in the future sounds somehow like better invested manpower ...
[21:00] <smagoun> ogra: The problem is not how to create the images, it is how to get them onto a USB drive. I need a tool that does that.
[21:01] <ogra> you maean something like a graphical dd ?
[21:01] <ogra> *mean
[21:01] <smagoun> ogra: right, that's why I asked here in the first place. liveusb-creator seems to be the only option that exists today.
[21:01] <smagoun> ogra: exactly.
[21:01] <mkrufky> argh, i said brb to the wrong room, again
[21:01]  * mkrufky hides
[21:04] <smagoun> ogra: the reason I want a graphical dd is that I don't want a user picking the wrong device. 'dd if=C:\my.iso of=C:\' would be bad in this case.
[21:04] <ogra> smagoun, well, first step would be to get it packaged then, second to get it working with ubuntu at all, third backport to hardy (which i assume you target atm) that probably wont be faster than writing something from scratch
[21:05]  * ogra wasnt aware windows had dd at all ... i always point users to rawrite
[21:08]  * ogra reads liveusb-creator homepage
[21:09] <ogra> heh
[21:09] <ogra>  * Completely non-destructive install. There is no need to deal with formatting or partitioning your USB key.
[21:09] <smagoun> ogra: liveusb-creator worked out of the box on Hardy, so that's not a problem. I'm not familiar with rawrite, is that something I could give to (say) a marketing person without worrying about destroying his/her hard disk?
[21:09] <ogra> i wonder how you overwrite an usb key in a nondestructive way :)
[21:10] <ogra> smagoun, i'm not even sure it works with USB devices, its from the time where you had to dd images to floppies under linux and rawrite was the equivalent to do so on windows
[21:12] <ogra> from the screenshots it looks very close to what we planned for the ubuntu iso->USB thing in pargue
[21:12] <smagoun> ogra: liveusb-creator will write an image to an existing filesystem on the USB disk, then install syslinux to make the USB key bootable. It even works, I used it a previous job.
[21:14] <ogra> well, one question is how it interacts with casper or whatever custom initramfs script you use for booting the installed system on the key
[21:14] <ogra> it looks like it would be easy to customize to just grab ubuntu isos instead of fedora ones
[21:16] <ogra> hmm
[21:16] <ogra> "Linux support for the liveusb-creator is still in beta, but you can easily test it by doing the following..."
[21:17] <ogra> seems the oly released version is the winows tool yet
[21:26] <davidm> smagoun, are you talking about moving image to a USB stick on Linux or Windows or both?
[21:26] <smagoun> davidm: both, really
[21:27] <davidm> cause on Linux it's a 10 line bash script if you want to be super safe, windows I have no idea
[21:27] <davidm> one line if you don't care about safe
[21:28] <smagoun> davidm: safe is the problem (and windows is the other problem)
[21:29] <davidm> Safe is prompt them to insert USB and wait for new USB drive to insert, prompt OK and then copy to device, done. WIndows hell if I know.
[21:29] <ogra> ugh, liveusb-creator works with device names ... should use UUIDs and descriptive names instead ...
[21:30]  * ogra tries to install a hardy iso with a modified liveusb-creator ...
[21:30] <davidm> Could wrap a gui around a script and even make it cool looking.
[21:30] <ogra> yeah
[21:31] <ogra> for the linux side thats an afternoon of work for an experienced pygtk programmer ...
[21:31] <ogra> but smagoun wants a windows tool as well
[21:32] <ogra> tedg, hey ... do you know these ? http://parker1.co.uk/eternity/
[21:32] <ogra> (check the videos, they are quite cool, somethig to consider to include)
[21:32] <tedg> ogra, no I hadn't see them.  Just the pictures are pretty cool.
[21:33] <ogra> yeah, and upstream seems very ubuntu enthusiastic
[21:34]  * ogra twiddles thumbs waiting for liveusb-creator downloading the hardy iso ... i bet it will fail becaue we dont provide sha1 checksums in the archive for the isos 
[21:34] <ScottK> doko: I've attached a patch for Bug #207150.  I'd appreciate it if you'd take a look.  If you like, I can upload it (or not), but thought I should check with you first.
[21:34] <ubott2> Launchpad bug 207150 in python-central "pycentral crashed with UnboundLocalError in read_pyfiles()" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/207150
[21:37] <davidm> ogra, I've not used Windows in so long I have no idea how to approach it there, except maybe Cygwin?
[21:38] <ogra> QT runs on windows as well as gtk does
[21:39] <smagoun> davidm: fedora has a tool (liveusb-creator) for getting ISOs onto USB. It uses QT, and runs on Windows.
[21:39] <ogra> the liveusb-creator git tree has a dd.exe and (7z.exe in the source intresting there is no license or sourcecode for it which breaks the GPL)
[21:40] <ogra> it has only four functions and is really not very much code ...
[21:41] <ogra> but i still doubt our isos will work with it at all ... fedoras bootpocess and especially the initramfs is *massively* different to ours
[21:42] <ogra> it will need a fair amount of adjustment and testing before you can even think about using it ... i tend to agree with davidm, writing a quick gui for a script will pretty much achieve the same functionallity ...
[21:43] <davidm> Wonder if they got dd from here: http://gmgsystemsinc.com/fau/
[21:43] <ogra> they cheat by using a binary dd.exe
[21:43] <ogra> we can do pretty much the same (but properly licensed i bet)
[21:44] <ogra> "The Forensic Acquisition Utilities are distributed under the GMG Systems, Inc. Open License. "
[21:44] <ogra> hmm
[21:45] <davidm> Or it could be from here: http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/rawwrite/dd-old.htm  That at least is GPL'ed
[21:45] <ogra> no sourcecode anywhere on the fau site
[21:46] <davidm> ogra, Nope, it's binary only
[21:47] <ogra> yeah, the latter looks like something that can be used though
[21:47] <ogra> ah, well
[21:47] <ogra> "This version does not actually do any conversion but it allows the flexible copying of data under in a win32 environment. At the moment block devices under Win9x are not supported but that will be added soon."
[21:47] <ogra> last modifies in 2006
[21:47] <ogra> *modified
[21:47] <ogra> doesnt look like fast progress
[21:48] <davidm> ogra, nope, slow as in stopped.
[21:48] <ogra> http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/ddrescue/ looks more recent and is GPL
[21:50] <ion_> dd_rhelp is a nice frontend for dd-rescue.
[21:51] <davidm> Ah, yea that might be better.  Tell you the truth however I don't really care about windows too much, not my cup of tea.
[21:51]  * ogra read frontend as in GUI above ... 
[21:51] <ogra> so i looked for screenshots
[21:51] <ogra> http://linux.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/dd-rhelp-Screenshot-30608.html
[21:51] <ogra> :P
[21:53] <ogra> smagoun, liveusb-creator is defnately no option for shipping it to customers until that dd.exe license issue is clear
[21:53] <davidm> is dd-rescue Windows?  I only really see Linux stuff
[21:54] <ogra> hmm, it was linked from the fau page
[21:55] <ogra> ah, no from the rawrite page, sorry
[21:56] <ogra> i guess the rawrite one is the best bet we have, even though its old and outdated, it claims to run on win2000 which makes me think it will likely work on XP as well
[21:56] <smagoun> ogra: the DD license is listed in README.txt, it is GPLv2.
[21:57] <smagoun> ogra: https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator/browser/README.txt
[21:57] <ogra> oh, right i looked at the different shipped license files
[21:58] <ogra> heh, and it links to http://www.chrysocome.net/dd which looks suspiciously like http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/rawwrite/dd-old.htm :)
[21:58] <ogra> (not to say its the same content :) )
[22:05] <davidm> http://www.chrysocome.net/projects has dd for windows and rawWrite for windows, all under GPL but you need delphi!!!
[22:05] <davidm> Which explains the development slowdown....
[22:09] <ogra> yeah
[22:16] <ogra> download is at 92% ...
[22:16] <ogra> *twiddle* *twiddle*
[22:17] <davidm> ogra, years ago I wrote a .h file that let me rename .pas files. to .c and include the .h and it would compile under C.  I wonder if you could do that with delphi files.
[22:17] <davidm> That was straight pascal however not object pascal
[22:18] <ogra> no idea, i never touched dlphi in my life ... when delphi was recent there was also perl (and perl-gtk) for windows ;)
[22:20] <ogra> Downloading ubuntu-8.04-desktop-i386.iso...
[22:20] <ogra> Download complete!
[22:20] <ogra> Verifying filesystem...
[22:20] <ogra> Not enough free space on device.
[22:20] <ogra> 699MB ISO + 0MB overlay > 164MB free space
[22:20] <ogra> LiveUSB creation failed!
[22:20] <ogra> ah well ...
[22:20] <ogra> its an empty 2G usb key you silly thing !
[22:22]  * ogra expected problems ... but surely not at that stage yet
[22:28] <ogra> its funny because it offers me to use the full 2048M of the key to select as persistent space ... so it knows there is enough room
[22:33]  * soren_ thinks he knows why Intrepid won't boot in kvm..
[22:33] <soren_> Hmm... where'd that underscore come from?
[22:52] <slangasek> cody-somerville: would you be able to test that the fix for bug #220817 is good?
[22:52] <ubott2> Launchpad bug 220817 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice.org language packs pull in openoffice.org binaries" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220817
[22:53] <slangasek> cody-somerville: i.e., that if you enable -proposed immediately, you don't get OOo pulled in right after a xubuntu install?
[22:55]  * ogra wonders why he seems to get a handfull of mail duplicated once a week ... 
[22:57] <ogra> i have gotten that "please compile git with curl" mail 18 times in ubuntu-devel-discuss now
[22:57] <ogra> and a bunh of bugmail that comes dulicated at least once a wekk
[22:57] <ogra> *week
[22:57] <ogra> does anyone else see that ?
[22:58] <ScottK> No.  POP3 or IMAP?
[22:58] <ScottK> What mail client?
[22:58] <ogra> pop3 googlemail ....
[22:59] <ogra> i see it coming in at the google interface as well, its not an issue on my side according to that behavior
[22:59] <ScottK> Right.  I'd blame Google.
[23:00] <ogra> you mean an internal SMTP server that sends it over and over ?
[23:00] <ogra> hmm, might be
[23:02] <ScottK> Dunno.
[23:11] <smagoun> ogra: FWIW I got liveusb-creator to copy an MIC image onto a USB stick. I hacked l-c to do a straight dd, no non-destructive writing for now. Now to see if it works on windoze...
[23:12] <ogra> well, then just rebrand it and you got what you want ... we can put a package in intrepid and backport it from there so you have it available for hardy users in ome way
[23:13] <ogra> *some
[23:13] <smagoun> yup, that's the plan (not sure it's going into intrepid/backports yet, I'll think about that one tomorrow :) )
[23:13] <ogra> well, if we need it i can package it in the distro, no probs here
[23:18]  * ogra doesnt see a prob telling customers to use an ubuntu liveCD instead of having to maintain win software though 
[23:27] <ogra> uhm, intresting, i cant ctrl-C liveusb-creator in the terminal i stared it in
[23:27] <ogra> *started