[00:13] <Rinchen> ooh fresh and shiny... 45 minutes until we roll-out the new LP updates!
[00:14] <wgrant> Rinchen: What's new since edge?
[00:14] <Rinchen> a few things
[00:14] <Rinchen> we had some changes that required DB changes
[00:14] <Rinchen> and we couldn't roll them to edge
[00:15] <Rinchen> a few more bug fixes and some graphics items landed late as well
[00:15] <wgrant> (and it's very inconvenient timing, as I was going to show some fellow developers LP IRL, but I guess staging will do)
[00:43] <mathiaz> Hi - could someone check why openldap cvs import fails ? https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/openldap/main
[00:50] <mwhudson> mathiaz: sure
[00:50]  * mwhudson waits for ff to die so he can start it again
[00:53] <mwhudson> mathiaz: ugh, no clear idea, looks like cscvs has a problem with that branch for some reason
[01:34] <Rinchen> wgrant, sorry about that. It's tough for us to schedule these things. We have some changes in the works to make this easier
[01:34] <Rinchen> wgrant, specifically, we're working on some changes that would allow LP to remain up in Read Only mode during roll-outs
[01:34] <mkrufky> seeing that msg led me here, too...  but really just for curiousity.
[01:34] <mkrufky> i really want to say that i absolutely love lp -- its a great product
[01:34] <mkrufky> and id like to see my company start using it for a bug tracker
[01:35] <mkrufky> (no response required :-P )
[01:35] <Rinchen> mkrufky, I'm glad you like it! Our guys try hard to make a good product
[01:35] <Rinchen> mkrufky, we can also help with converting existing bug information from another tracker into LP
[01:36] <mkrufky> cool.  currently we have no tracker :-P
[01:36] <mkrufky> so, we wouldnt need help there....   i been showing it to some of my coworkers -- they like it too
[01:36] <mkrufky> first, my plan is to get them to help fix some bugs in ubuntu related to our company..... once they're hooked, it'll be easier to get people to agree to installing it in the office
[01:37] <thumper> installing launchpad?
[01:37] <Rinchen> ubuntu
[01:37] <thumper> ah
[01:37] <thumper> I was gunna say..
[01:37] <mkrufky> actually, no -- i meant launchpad
[01:37] <Rinchen> ah well, that might be hard
[01:38] <mkrufky> i want us to use it as a bug tracker
[01:38] <mkrufky> i hadnt used many of its other features yet
[01:38] <Rinchen> Launchpad is a web service, not an installable product.
[01:38] <Rinchen> although...we're working on API's to enable folks to use LP in new and interesting ways
[01:38] <mkrufky> i thought it was open source
[01:38] <mkrufky> no?
[01:39] <thumper> mkrufky: not yet
[01:39] <mkrufky> hmm, i saw the word "free" -- i guess that doesnt mean open source
[01:39] <Rinchen> LP is currently closed source but it is free to use.  We are working towards opening it up.
[01:39] <Rinchen> Open source projects and languages were used in creating LP.
[01:40] <mkrufky> ah
[01:40] <Rinchen> We have a roadmap of sorts to open source LP.  So, it will happen. 
[01:40] <mkrufky> very cool
[01:40] <mkrufky> we'd be more likely to use it once we can run it on our own webserver
[01:41] <mkrufky> because we're not an open source company :-(   they tend to be secretive about their bugs, etc
[01:41] <mkrufky> (im the new guy)
[01:41] <Rinchen> The one drawback to that is that you wouldn't have the collaboration aspects that Launchpad brings to the table today
[01:41] <Rinchen> Today you can file bugs to upstream trackers or other LP projects
[01:41] <Rinchen> if you were to run a local instance, it would be cut off from the larger picture
[01:41] <mkrufky> lol, and i thought i came up with that feature idea today myself!
[01:42] <Rinchen> We've been thinking about local instances of LP for a while
[01:42] <mkrufky> for what my company does, we would not need it for the collaborative  features
[01:42] <mkrufky> although i realize that's the larger benefit to the product
[01:43] <mkrufky> meanwhile, I , as a linux developer, LOVE it for those features
[01:43] <mkrufky> and i would even like to see the v4l/dvb subsystem use a lp tracker and have it link into distros such as ubuntu, etc
[02:04] <Rinchen> w00t shiny new LP
[02:05] <mkrufky> niiice :-)
[02:11] <mkrufky> ...the only problem i see now.......   suddenly more bugs are assigned to me :-(
[02:11] <mkrufky> (thats a joke)
[02:22] <Rinchen> I can fix that.
[02:22] <Rinchen> :-)
[02:22] <Rinchen> as in, give  you a lot more :-D
[02:23] <mkrufky> haha
[02:23] <mkrufky> you'll have to find out what code it mine, first
[02:24] <mkrufky> s/it/is/1
[02:24] <mkrufky> (that wont be difficult, im sure)
[02:24] <Rinchen> I'll just sign you up for the random bug lottery :-)
[02:25] <Rinchen> I almost got beuno to volunteer for that one
[02:25] <mkrufky> oof
[02:26] <Rinchen> ah, beuno must be asleep or on a plane. He's usually right on top of me :-D
[02:27] <Rinchen> speaking of sleeping...time for me to head out
[02:27] <mkrufky> ok, keep up the good work
[02:27] <mkrufky> and have a good night
[02:55] <Peng> Is it just be, or is LP running bzr.dev now?
[02:56] <mwhudson> well, as of a few days ago yes
[02:57] <Peng> Huh.
[02:58] <jml> i.e. LP has been running bzr.dev of a few days ago for the last hour or so 
[02:59] <Peng> Oh.
[02:59] <mwhudson> yes, that was nicely ambiguous of me
[02:59] <mwhudson> sorry :)
[02:59] <jml> I would have replied sooner but was eating delicious toast
[02:59] <Peng> I wonder what bzr+http autodetection will do to load?
[03:00] <Peng> For example, my server's load, since I'm using plain old CGI for it. :P
[03:01] <Peng> It would be nice if you collected statistics: how many branches LP mirrors have bzr+http enabled, what it does to bandwidth, server load, etc.
[03:05] <jml> Peng: well, we can't measure what it does to the remote servers
[03:06] <Peng> jml: I'm curious what it does to LP's server load.
[03:06] <Peng> jml: And you can measure what it does to remote servers a bit, like latency and how frequent errors are.
[03:10] <jml> Peng: there are a lot of uncontrolled variables that reduce the value of measuring those
[03:11] <Peng> True.
[03:11] <Peng> But I'm still curious what happens to LP's server load.
[03:15]  * Peng wanders off.
[03:51] <armine42> hello
[03:52] <armine42> When I try to log on my account it displays "This account cannot be used"
[03:52] <armine42> Someone has an idea of what the problem can be?
[03:55] <beuno> damn, I missed Rinchen's attempt to volunteer me for something again
[03:55] <beuno> I knew I shouldn't of gone out to dinner...
[07:36] <kblin> hi folks
[07:44] <\sh> hmm...when I set a Milestone for a bug...I don't see this info on the main report page
[08:00] <mpt> Goooooooooooooooooooooooood morning Launchpadders!
[08:01] <\sh> hey mpt
[08:09] <mpt> \sh, that's bug 70615, I hope to fix it in the next couple of weeks
[08:09] <\sh> mpt: ah cool :)
[08:58] <asac> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nss/+bug/244439 is oopsing
[08:59] <asac> can anyone please look whats going on? its a high-prio bug (which has high upstream visibility)
[09:00] <asac> BjornT: ^^
[09:14] <BjornT> asac: that's odd. i'm looking at it now, but i don't know what's causing it yet.
[09:14] <BjornT> asac: what was the last thing you did with the bug?
[09:14] <kiko> morning
[09:15] <asac> BjornT: i added nspr as a target (ubuntu/nspr)
[09:15] <asac> when i tried that it oopsed and never recovered
[09:16] <asac> e.g. add Distribution -> Ubuntu + nspr
[09:52] <BjornT> asac: we've found the problem. we're going to fix the data, so that the bug renders again.
[09:54] <BjornT> asac: there seems to be a bug that happens when you add another source package, to a bug that is targeted to a distro series. we should be able to fix that bug today, so it won't happen again.
[09:54] <asac> BjornT: could you fix the symptoms so upstream can read the bug again?
[09:55] <lifeless> asac: thats what bjorn is doing
[09:55] <BjornT> asac: yes, we're fixing the data now. it should start working soon.
[09:56] <asac> BjornT: thanks a bunch
[10:27] <Leith> you guys aware of problems on the site?
[10:27] <Leith> I can't hit http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mysql/mysql-server/mysql-5.1/annotate/joerg%40mysql.com-20080630105418-7qoe5ehomgrcdb89?file_id=sp1f-slave.cc-19700101030959-a636aj3mjxgu7fnznrg5kt77p3u2bvhh
[10:28] <wgrant> Leith: I had to try files from various MySQL branches a couple of times this evening.'
[10:28] <wgrant> But it eventually worked.
[10:29] <Leith> wgrant: only having issues with MySQL ones, or others too?
[10:30] <BjornT> asac: that bug renders ok now
[10:32] <wgrant> Leith: Oh, you're right, it's all dead now.
[10:32] <wgrant> BjornT: Can you please poke somebody to attack LH?
[10:32] <Leith> bah :)
[10:33] <asac> BjornT: rock. remind me to hand you beer next time we meet ;)
[10:33]  * Leith goes to check our internal trees instead
[10:33] <asac> ... or an orange juice ;) ... whatever you prefer
[10:35] <BjornT> wgrant: LH?
[10:35] <kiko> loggerhead
[10:38]  * wgrant confirms kiko's assertion.
[10:38] <lifeless> so, LH is working for me
[10:38] <lifeless> on a much smaller branch though
[10:38] <lifeless> kiko: did you just bounce it?
[10:38] <kiko> nope
[10:38] <wgrant> Failing on mplayer and various MySQL here.
[10:39] <lifeless> up, there it goes
[10:39] <wgrant> At least it's not as unfun as fighting with SourceForge.
[10:39] <lifeless> I'm looking at it, one sec
[10:41] <wgrant> I think SourceForge must have designed their UI to be as bad as possible...
[10:41] <wgrant> LP's is most excellent in comparison.
[10:41] <lifeless> we've just bounced it, but there is some heavy load in progress
[10:42] <lifeless> so it may have some issues (not loggerhead load either - I'm investigating)
[10:42] <wgrant> It's all CherryPy
[10:42] <lifeless> if you think LH is nice, just wait ;)
[10:42] <wgrant> *'s fault
[10:42] <lifeless> we have some __love__ coming your way
[10:43] <wgrant> Is there a page of hints for convincing the couple of remaining dissenting colleagues to consider changing to LP and bzr?
[10:44] <lifeless> uhm
[10:45] <lifeless> I'm not sure, I mean the various how tos and so on do a reasonable job of showcasing what lp and bzr can do for them
[10:46] <wgrant> Some people seem to irrationally glue themselves to Subversion :(
[10:47] <kiko> svn?!
[10:48] <wgrant> Another DVCS I could understand, but not Subversion.
[10:48] <lifeless> wgrant: what do they prefer?
[10:49] <lifeless> wgrant: perhaps there is something we can improve on
[10:49] <wgrant> lifeless: They just seem to be resisting change.
[10:49] <lifeless> wgrant: well, change does have a cost. So perhaps asking if the cost is lower than the benefits 
[10:49] <wgrant> Most members of my team are very much over SF's useless interface, and like the look of LP...
[10:49] <lifeless> wgrant: because then they can't claim all change is bad
[10:50] <lifeless> (as you're acking that change costs)
[10:51] <wgrant> True.
[11:41] <kiko> danilos, ping?
[12:46] <armine42> hi
[12:46] <armine42> Can somebody help me, when I try to connect my account it says "This account cannot be used."
[12:47] <armine42> I have no idea why, but when I look at my homepage (unlogged) It writes armine42 does not use Launchpad. 
[12:58] <armine42> no idea?
[12:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> is armine42 your LP username, or did you use something else ?
[12:59] <armine42> Yes armine42 is my username
[13:06] <armine42> Kamping_Kaiser, you have and idea?
[13:07] <Kamping_Kaiser> armine42, nope. hang around and wait for an admin type :)
[13:07] <armine42> ok thank you :-)
[13:07] <Kamping_Kaiser> gl :)
[13:07] <armine42> thanx ;-)
[13:27] <ppires> greetings
[13:29] <ppires> so launchpad is free software and not opensource. yet, is there any binary release or somewhere i can read about this issue?
[13:29] <kiko> launchpad.net? :)
[13:29] <ppires> i'm currently evaluating some scm+bug/issue tracking+wiki solutions for enterprise usage
[13:30] <andrea-bs> ppires: you may find FAQs useful: https://help.launchpad.net/FAQ#Is%20Launchpad%20Free%20Software/open%20source?%20If%20not,%20why%20not?
[13:30] <ppires> kiko: it surely is that i'm not seeing it. but tey explain why it is not oss. they don't explain that it's not free but only a free service
[13:30] <ppires> and there's a difference
[13:31] <kiko> right
[13:33] <ppires> it's sad. i'm currently very in love with bzr and i've registered to launchpad. they got something here!!
[13:37] <ppires> oh well thanks and keep up the good work :-)
[13:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> bzr is free software, wether LP is or not
[13:38] <ppires> Like Sourceforge and Google Code Hosting Launchpad is not open source. Unlike those other services, we have committed to making Launchpad Free Software.
[13:38] <ppires> well it is not free software. it's a free service
[13:38] <wgrant> It doesn't say it is free software.
[13:38] <wgrant> It says it will be made to be eventually.
[13:39] <ppires> wgrant: that's a point. so you think launchpad will make it to the enterprise?
[13:39] <wgrant> It is a very nice system. Once it is freed, it probably will.
[13:40] <Leith> adoption++
[13:41]  * Kamping_Kaiser wonders if an easy to use UI will come before or after freeing
[13:41] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: It's a lot easier than most other systems.
[13:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> the current one may be powerful, but i'm totally lost in it as soon as i stray outside my normal path(s)
[13:41] <Hobbsee> Kamping_Kaiser: mail.  interface.
[13:41] <ppires> as for now i'm with atalassian all the way: jira+confluence and it's a very nice solution. they provide hosting, local instalations, standalone and even special oss licensing for oss projects.
[13:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> wgrant, its no easier then bugzilla. i find it harder then RT  and trac
[13:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> Hobbsee, :o
[13:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> ppires, did you read the OSS licence?
[13:42] <ppires> no, i'm not interested in their code, jsut their product
[13:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> Hobbsee, never tried it.  didnt know it was usable.
[13:42] <ppires> *just
[13:43] <Hobbsee> Kamping_Kaiser: it is, and it usually doesn't change.
[13:43] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: What's difficult about it?
[13:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> wgrant, the LP ui?
[13:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> Hobbsee, might have to try it out. if its similar to debbugs its already going to be handy.
[13:44] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: Correct.
[13:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> wgrant, to many links that i'm unlikely to use, seeming inconstancy (theres 'projects' open for things that dont even use LP that i'm aware of) [ a result of imports?]
[13:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> i find i'm prone to getting 'lost' (but i cant think of an example right now)
[13:49] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: WHy do extra projects matter? People don't normally go around looking for projects to file bugs on.
[13:50] <Kamping_Kaiser> as for the lack of search *cough*
[13:50] <wgrant> They normally look for a known project that they know uses LP.
[13:50] <wgrant> And what lack of search?
[13:51] <Kamping_Kaiser> wgrant, go to the front page and try and search for something thats not a project. say, Karl Goetz (i certainly dont see a way)
[13:51] <weigon> https://launchpad.net/mysql-proxy is current a vcs import (~vcs-imports/...), but I would like to close the loop and move the whole svn-repo it fetches from to launchpad
[13:51] <weigon> how would I do that ?
[13:51] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: Blurgh. All except the root pages have a global search in the top-right.
[13:52] <wgrant> mpt: ^^
[13:52] <wgrant> weigon: Launchpad only hosts bzr repositories.
[13:52] <wgrant> Not svn.
[13:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> root page*s*?
[13:52] <wgrant> Kamping_Kaiser: Yes, on the different applications.
[13:52] <wgrant> launchpad.net, bugs.launchpad.net, answers.launchpad.net...
[13:53]  * Kamping_Kaiser suspects that hes meant to use the menu thing at the top to find lp.n/people and use that (for example)
[13:53] <statik> weigon: about time! :)
[13:53] <weigon> wgrant: I we use bzr internally too and expose it as svn to external users
[13:53] <statik> just do a conversion, and upload a branch
[13:54] <weigon> wgrant: now I want to kill the svn-repo and bzr all the way
[13:54] <wgrant> weigon: statik knows better than I, I'm sure.
[13:54] <weigon> it is funny that we do bzr->svn and launchpad does svn->bzr again :)
[13:54] <statik> weigon: do you already have a bzr branch made?
[13:55] <weigon> statik: yep
[13:55] <weigon> I use bzr-svn to push into the svn-tree on svn.mysql.com
[13:55] <mpt> Kamping_Kaiser, the search problem is being fixed in the next couple of weeks
[13:56] <mpt> Kamping_Kaiser, there is a search, it's just not well-shown at the moment
[13:56] <weigon> statik: launchpad pulls from there and imports it 
[13:56] <statik> weigon: then just bzr push your bzr tree up to bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~weigon/mysql-proxy/trunk
[13:56] <weigon> statik: instead I would like to push directly into that tree
[13:56] <mpt> Kamping_Kaiser, https://launchpad.net/+search?field.text=karl+goetz
[13:57] <weigon> statik: k
[13:57] <statik> weigon: the pattern for branches on launchpad is ~owner/project/name
[13:57] <statik> owner can be a person or a team
[13:57] <statik> and welcome to launchpad :) you might want to get monty to change the launchpad project over to be managed by a team
[13:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> mpt, :)
[15:16] <Dauerbaustelle> Trying to view code, I get a 404 error
[15:16] <Dauerbaustelle> -.-
[15:16] <Dauerbaustelle> now is that one of the 2-minutes-"bugs"? ]:->
[15:17] <Dauerbaustelle> Damn, launchpad really sucks, now it works
[15:17] <Dauerbaustelle> I will never understand how things work
[15:17] <Dauerbaustelle> :/
[15:17] <Dauerbaustelle> -.-
[15:17] <kiko> Dauerbaustelle, what URL?
[15:17] <wgrant> Dauerbaustelle: What was the URL?
[15:17] <Dauerbaustelle> http://tinyurl.com/4s2sr9
[15:17] <kiko> wgrant, where did it link from?
[15:18] <wgrant> kiko: EPERSON
[15:18] <kiko> gar
[15:18] <kiko> Dauerbaustelle, that's not a 404 for me
[15:18] <sabdfl> he said it failed for 2 minutes, then worked
[15:18] <Dauerbaustelle> right
[15:19] <glatzor> hello danilos, could you please take a look https://bugs.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/243938. It seems like there are problems with forward porting translations from the current stable branch to the devel one.
[15:20] <glatzor> danilos, I would like to upload the templates from gutsy to hardy manually soon.
[15:21] <danilos> glatzor: we are not "forward porting" translations atm (we do have some code to do that, but I believe we are not doing it on a regular basis)
[15:21] <danilos> glatzor: I am not sure I understand that last bit
[15:21] <kiko> Dauerbaustelle, if it was a branch you had just pushed, then man, you need to wait 2 mins :)
[15:22] <glatzor> danilos, Oh I thought that translation made to gutsy after the hardy translation have been opened would be applied to hardy too if the message strings match
[15:23] <Dauerbaustelle> kiko, yeah this might have been the problem but why does launchpad only give me an ugly 404 error and not a "please wait" message...?
[15:23] <kiko> Dauerbaustelle, a bug :-(
[15:23] <danilos> glatzor: that's not happening, though we do that from time to time (we have a script to do it), and we are also planning on making it work like that
[15:24] <glatzor> danilos, and did you run the script in the hardy development phase?
[15:24] <glatzor> danilos, there are many translation done on 28th january. (afaik the translations have been opened on 21th january)
[15:25] <danilos> glatzor: I am not entirely sure, I am looking it up, but jtv has been handling that side of things, so I might have to check with him (and he's away today)
[15:27] <glatzor> danilos, there are even some translations in the basic-commands template of ubuntu-docs that have been done shortly before the opening which are also not in hardy
[15:30] <danilos> glatzor: copying gutsy translations itself took around 20 hours, and then we had 60000 PO file imports processed in another week, when we announced the opening (and made it public); those translations are likely done in that week between copying and imports finishing
[15:31] <glatzor> jesus
[15:32] <danilos> glatzor: the caveat there is that LP has been running the whole time, which made the entire process 3-10 times slower
[15:33] <danilos> glatzor: I'll check with jtv and make sure he comments on the bug report you filed about forward porting translations
[15:34] <emgent> kiko: OOPS-913C2749
[15:34] <emgent> ok ok nice
[15:34] <emgent> :)
[15:35] <emgent> missing s in +editmail
[15:35] <kiko> typo man
[15:52]  * Yhouse e' away (Sto andando via)
[16:22] <calc> anyone know why 'actions' do not appear for bugs anymore?
[16:22] <calc> it appears the only easy way to find that pane now is to click on mark as duplicate
[16:23] <calc> then i can see all the options, otherwise it doesn't show up on the left at all
[16:26] <Hobbsee> calc: it's gone.  
[16:26] <Hobbsee> calc: it won't be back.
[16:26] <Hobbsee> calc: (it's an intentional design decision)
[16:27] <calc> so you can't offer mentorship anymore, i actively tried figuring out where all the options went and finally found them
[16:28]  * calc wonders why people haven't realized completely redesigning gui's isn't a good idea after seeing the Office 2007 mess ;-)
[16:28] <calc> oh its all there including mentorship
[16:28] <Hobbsee> calc: poke mpt 
[16:28] <calc> its just someone decided to sprinkle the actions all over the page
[16:28] <calc> so its nearly impossible for someone new to this interface to find what they want to do
[16:29] <Hobbsee> calc: it's a feature.  but yes.
[16:29] <calc> perhaps on a brand new bug that all fits on one screen this layout is decent, but on real bug reports its a mess
[16:30] <calc> most of it is good enough imho but the actions that are not above the initial bug report are hard to find
[16:31] <mpt> calc, are you new to Launchpad?
[16:31] <mpt> actually, a more useful way of putting that
[16:32] <mpt> When did you start using Launchpad?
[16:34] <calc> mpt: regularly or at all?
[16:34] <calc> i've been regularly using it over a year, and always use it via the left actions panel
[16:35] <\sh> hmm...is it possible to subscribe to a teams mailinglist, without being a member of the team or having an account on LP? I want to forward one external email to the projects mailinglist..but I need somehow to subscribe this email first, right? :)
[16:35] <calc> but i have been using it on and off since it started
[16:35] <calc> ~ 3 years ago (iirc)
[16:35] <\sh> or should i just add this email address to the confirmed e-mails of the project?
[16:36] <calc> making the left panel go away makes the fact that eg 'offer mentorship' is at the very bottom of the bug report a lot more visible (and harder to find)
[16:36] <mpt> calc, I'm sorry then, it's going to be harder for you to get used to than for many others
[16:36] <calc> and on bugs with long bug descriptions makes it hard to find the other options since they aren't on the screen when you pull it up
[16:36] <calc> what was the rationale for putting the offer mentorship at the very bottom of the bug page for example?
[16:37] <Hobbsee> calc: perhaps you should make all OO.o bugs shorter, so that it's easier to find things?  /me ducks
[16:37] <calc> Hobbsee: hehe, or get a 1920x1200 laptop :)
[16:37] <mpt> calc, we tried it after the description, but there were too many items there already
[16:37] <mpt> calc, and it's one of the least-used items
[16:38] <Hobbsee> calc: also, most of launchpad does have a mail interface to it now.  and firefox page search isn't bad.
[16:38] <LarstiQ> I might be rationalizing it, but I'd think potential mentors read most of the comments.
[16:38] <mpt> that too
[16:38] <calc> Hobbsee: you have to know what to search for though, hence new users not even knowing what to look for
[16:38] <Hobbsee> both bandaid solutions, but they work enough.
[16:38] <Hobbsee> calc: i know.  i'm not saying i agree with the new design either.
[16:38] <mpt> calc, I think the intersection of {new users} and {mentors} is pretty small
[16:39]  * calc is probably just annoyed at another 'Gnome' redesign that annoys more than it helps
[16:39] <mpt> a 'Gnome' redesign?
[16:39] <calc> i call it 'Gnome' redesign due to their weird HIG rationalization of making things harder for advanced users to make things look prettier :)
[16:39] <calc> eg gconf-editor ;-)
[16:39] <LarstiQ> mpt: are there plans to move what's in the leftover panels on the left somewhere else?
[16:39] <Hobbsee> mpt: so, presumably, as long as the people find out about various launchpad functionality in other ways, rather than seeing it on the page, everything is good, right?  :)
[16:40] <calc> LarstiQ: the main one still exists its just hard to find now
[16:40] <mpt> Hobbsee, wow, passive aggressive much? :-)
[16:40] <LarstiQ> calc: 'main' one?
[16:40] <mpt> LarstiQ, yes
[16:40] <calc> probably for most bugs this isn't an issue about layout since you can see the report on one screen
[16:40] <Hobbsee> mpt: no, sorry, i wasn't trying to be.  but it's 1.40am, so...
[16:40] <calc> many of OOo bugs are several screens log with backtraces, etc
[16:40] <LarstiQ> mpt: cool
[16:41] <LarstiQ> calc: do you mean specifically for offering mentorship, or other things as well?
[16:41] <calc> and it was a surprise not to be able to find what i was looking for on the left and i thought it was completely gone, i can work around the drop of productivity resulting from moving the options all over the place, but it is what it is
[16:41] <mpt> LarstiQ, one of them -- bug 152878 -- nearly got fixed for yesterday but had to be pulled out temporarily
[16:41]  * calc thinks the old panel should come back since it was easy to find everything you could do to a bug in one place
[16:42]  * Hobbsee twitches
[16:42] <calc> is it possible to have it display based on a preference of the logged in user?
[16:42] <mpt> calc, that was the original theory. But then we had people who really honestly thought that Launchpad's bug tracker didn't support attachments, because "Attach a file" was hiding in the middle of the menu, instead of next to the comment field where people expected to find it.
[16:43] <calc> it was right there in the middle of the comment section as well? :)
[16:43] <Hobbsee> mpt: i would suggest that would happen for many other parts of functionality in the new version, too.
[16:43] <mpt> calc, it wasn't originally. We had to copy it there.
[16:43] <calc> oh ok
[16:44] <mpt> Hobbsee, sure, but (fingers crossed) it won't be as bad, because now the design is more like almost every other Web app on the planet.
[16:44]  * Hobbsee bites tongue
[16:46] <LarstiQ> mpt: well, I for one think it's an improvement, so thanks.
[16:46] <mpt> LarstiQ, it's a preliminary step
[16:46] <mpt> More coming soon
[16:46]  * Hobbsee can certainly see some improvements on it.
[16:47] <\sh> mpt: launchpad goes facebook? ,-)
[16:47] <Hobbsee> i still find it pretty uncohesive, and the options scattered without any real sense of logic around the page, though.
[16:48] <Hobbsee> (like, why don't all the lists go the same way, and look the same?)
[16:48] <mpt> They'll look the same soon
[16:48] <mpt> What do you mean by "go the same way"?
[16:49] <Hobbsee> see the mark as duplicate row - they go L-R, spread across the page.
[16:49] <mpt> yeah, that's temporary
[16:49] <Hobbsee> the also affects row goes L-R, but is all left aligned, and doesn't go across the page.
[16:49] <mpt> That's also temporary
[16:49] <Hobbsee> the update description / tags, link a related branch, and link to CVE, does *not* go L-R, but for some strange reason, goes up-down.
[16:50] <Hobbsee> as for why it doesn't go L-R like the rest of the options spread across the page, i've no idea.
[16:51] <Hobbsee> i also don't understand how the privacy or security of the bug has anything to do with whether it's valid or not, which is what i'd categorise the "convert to a questoin" and duplicate stuff under.
[16:51] <mpt> For that you'll need to ask intellectronica
[16:51] <Hobbsee> for the latter half there, i don't understand why it wouldn't be put with all the status, importance, etc, in the drop down.
[16:51] <mpt> I'm not sure how it ended up there :-)
[16:51] <intellectronica> who will need to ask me about what?
[16:51] <andrea-bs> mpt: why don't keep some actions in the Actions menu, and only the most used in the body of the page?
[16:52] <mpt> intellectronica, why "Set privacy/security" is floating in the middle
[16:52] <Hobbsee> i still don't understand why the affects <name> dropdown with the arrow does not, in fact, drop down, but takes you to another URL completely.
[16:52] <mpt> andrea-bs, because we're using that space for other things
[16:53] <intellectronica> mpt, Hobbsee: well, it needs to go _somewhere_. do you have any better suggestions? bear in mind that we want to preserve as much vertical space as we can so that the comments aren't too far from the description
[16:53] <mpt> andrea-bs, for example, on translation pages the full width of the page is now used for translating, because there isn't an Actions menu at all.
[16:53] <Hobbsee> i would have expected that to have been done up the top, with the bug #nnnnn in <name>, and the the affects <name> dropdown would rever to the more sane behaviour.
[16:54] <Hobbsee> because that, really, is how most of the other webapps that i see, work.
[16:54] <mpt> andrea-bs, and on bug pages I hope to use some of that space to introduce a Milestone column, solving the problem that you can't see what milestone a bug is targeted to.
[16:54] <mpt> Hobbsee, I also have a plan to fix that
[16:54] <andrea-bs> mpt: this is a great thing, so :)
[16:54]  * mpt should just be quiet and get back to coding all these :-)
[16:55] <Hobbsee> mpt: and all in all, i don't understand why this wasn't sanely drafted earlier, and so gets done all at once, and doesn't leave people in limbo, having to relearn launchpad each time.
[16:55] <Hobbsee> like, over a period of 6+ months?
[16:56] <Hobbsee> (when did the dropdown-doesn't-drop-down-anymore change go in, again?)
[16:56] <andrea-bs> intellectronica: I see that now the space between the description and the comments is lesser, but I think that you can reduce the space between "Update description/tags" and "Link a related branch" ;)
[16:56] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: i'd have to think about that - ultimately, replanning all the options on that page would be better, rather than using a bandaid fix like changing one.
[16:56] <Hobbsee> (as in, without giving thought on how to make that page saner with the rest)
[16:57] <mpt> Hobbsee, I did draw up a complete plan for it. Unfortunately there wasn't time to implement it all at once.
[16:58] <intellectronica> Hobbsee: i'm not sure i agree. in a live system with many users it's sometimes better to change things bit by bit rather than everything at once. in any case, there's quite a detailed plan by mpt for the rest of the work, but it will take a bit until the implementation is complete
[16:59] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: bit by bit, yes.  but large chunk by large chunk, where each time people come in, going "now, how do i do this now?" when they've been previously using launchpad for months?
[16:59] <intellectronica> Hobbsee: in the mean time, comments like this are really helpful, with or without alternative suggestions. feel free to file bugs too
[16:59] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: alas, by the time the bugs i file mature enough, i'm sure the UI will have changed again :)
[16:59] <Hobbsee> but, true
[17:00] <Hobbsee> mpt: yeah - i guess i'm more annoyed at the seemingly random "major" UI change of the dropdown that no longer acts as a dropdown.
[17:00] <Hobbsee> mpt: which, while it looks minor, actually isn't, as that's what the majority of people probably hit.
[17:00] <LarstiQ> mpt, intellectronica: this plan is public?
[17:00] <Hobbsee> LarstiQ: unlikely.
[17:00] <Hobbsee> LarstiQ: (they usually aren't)
[17:00] <mpt> Hobbsee, you mean in the Affects table?
[17:00] <LarstiQ> Hobbsee: I can understand not wanting random people clogging up with comments.
[17:01] <Hobbsee> mpt: yes
[17:01] <mpt> Hobbsee, that was introduced sometime last year iirc
[17:01] <Hobbsee> mpt: i suspect so, yes.
[17:03] <Hobbsee> ah yes, and the other thing i don't understand is why standard symbols tend to get made to mean something different in the context of launchpad (in particular, the aforementioend dropdown), or where (forgotten the correct term here) the mouse-brain memory thing isn't taken into account, where the options should be in the same place each time as much as possible, so people can use launchpad more easily, as they don't have to deliberately search 
[17:03] <Hobbsee> each time, but know that the option is right -->there<---
[17:05] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: how's that for a general, hopefully constructive rant, on design?  :)
[17:06] <intellectronica> amusing, at the very least :)
[17:06] <Hobbsee> heh
[17:08] <mpt> For example, the link for subscribing to something should be in the same place on almost everything that you can subscribe to
[17:08] <Hobbsee> correct.
[17:09] <Hobbsee> i think it is now, after your change?
[17:09] <Hobbsee> nope, it didn't get through.
[17:09] <mpt> It will be, but it needs changing in a bunch of places
[17:09] <Hobbsee> true
[17:09] <mpt> ...And whether something is public or private should be in the same place on everything that can be made private
[17:09] <Hobbsee> quite probably, yes...
[17:09] <Hobbsee> and i think this, ultimately, is why people get annoyed.
[17:10] <Hobbsee> it's not that the UI has changed, it's because it's changed, and they can't figure out where things are, and they can't see logical groupings as to why they're there, so they can learn them more quickly, and start using launchpad to it's full potential again
[17:11] <mpt> So we're in the valley halfway from Mt Familiar to Mt Logical
[17:11] <Hobbsee> that's probably a reasonable summation.
[17:23]  * calc thinks he is fine with the new design as long as it doesn't significantly change again
[17:23] <calc> at least the top part of the options are in a good location
[17:24] <calc> of course if we get too many more options this new design probably won't work very well
[17:24] <mpt> Fixing bug 1334 would reduce the number of options by one
[17:24] <calc> ah :)
[17:25] <Hobbsee> \o/
[17:25] <Hobbsee> i always get confused about which one is which, and so click the options on either one until i see a familar screen!
[17:26] <calc> maybe moving tags up to below the description and getting rid of the duplicate change desc/tags would help also?
[17:26] <calc> currently you can change it in two places
[17:27]  * Hobbsee suggests putting the "change tags" option next to wherever the tags end up living on the UI.
[17:28] <Hobbsee> i'd also try sticking the duplicate stuff in the dropdown, where all the other status changes / improtance changes / etc take place.  that seems like a fitting place for it.
[17:28] <Hobbsee> most of the other options are adding bits to the bug, or viewing other parts already added, so it doesn't seem to belong there
[17:29] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: maybe something like that is the answer to your questoin earlier.
[17:30] <Hobbsee> "put everything that changes *this* bug, but doesn't add to it, or let you view anything from it, all together, whether that be on the dropdown panel, or another location.
[17:30] <calc> duplicate makes the whole bug a duplicate of another bug not just one packages info about the bug
[17:30] <calc> maybe that idea should change(?)
[17:30] <Hobbsee> calc: ah, now there's a point.
[17:31] <calc> eg 185311
[17:31] <calc> its attached to all sorts of things
[17:31] <intellectronica> Hobbsee: yes, ultimately, that _is_ the best solution for pretty much any editable item on that page. that's pretty much the plan for it too
[17:31] <Hobbsee> re: duplicates:  <checkbox> This bug is a duplicate.   if checkbox ticked, give a space to fill in the number.  to undupe, hit the checkbox, the number goes away.
[17:31] <Hobbsee> or something might be a saner option
[17:31] <Hobbsee> intellectronica: right, cool
[17:31] <calc> a seperate drop down for the overall bug might be useful
[17:32] <Hobbsee> yeah...
[17:32] <calc> but you couldn't currently add that type of stuff to the eg 'openoffice.org' part of a bug
[17:32] <calc> for duplicates in the future if one bug can be a duplicate of several other then that would make sense
[17:33] <Hobbsee> "error:  this bug is already a duplicate of Y.  would you like to make yours a duplicate of Y too?"
[17:33] <Hobbsee> would cover that?
[17:33] <calc> maybe
[17:34] <calc> oh yea another feature i would love to see is that a bug that already has duplicates could be made a duplicate
[17:34] <calc> so you could reassign a large block of bugs to another bug that may already have duplicates as well
[17:34] <Hobbsee> and they automatically update?
[17:34] <Hobbsee> yeah, that'd be nice.  i don't know why that isn't done.
[17:34] <calc> yea have it go down the list and update
[17:34] <calc> iirc it currently doesn't work, i think i tried that a while back
[17:35] <Hobbsee> ti didn't last time i tried, either
[17:35] <calc> OOo gets huge numbers of dupe bugs
[17:36] <Hobbsee> maybe you should do as certain others do, and mark any dupes as invalid, to save time reduping them, with a comment saying "please look at bug xxxxx"
[17:36] <Hobbsee> but i'm sure that's abusing the bugtracker
[17:43] <calc> Hobbsee: yea :( not a good solution especially if it turns out not really to be a dupe
[17:45] <mpt> calc, Hobbsee, that's bug 78596
[17:45] <mpt> and/or bug 2796
[18:02] <calc> mpt: ah ok
[18:44] <bdoss> Does anyone know why Launchpad PPA Release files go to /var/lib/apt/lists/partial instead of /var/lib/apt/lists?
[18:45] <tbielawa> did you try http://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad ?
[18:47] <cprov> bdoss: probably because they are unsigned
[18:47] <cprov> bdoss: but that's a good question to be filed, I don't know for sure.
[18:49] <bdoss> cprov: Ok, thanks for the help... I remember reading a bug report about Launchpad repositories being unsigned, but it's still kind of puzzling that they're kept in partial
[18:50] <bdoss> cprov: The reason this is a little nuisance is because it seems impossible to assign package pinnings to repositories left in partial
[18:51] <cprov> bdoss: yes, that's quite possible as a side-effect of being unsigned and thus not trusted.
[18:52] <bdoss> cprov: Ok, I'll check out that bug report one more time... thanks again for the help
[18:53] <cprov> bdoss: thanks, you're welcome.
[19:04] <\sh> hmmm
[19:05] <\sh> if a mail is in the ml queue for moderation, I should see this mail in the web frontend, right?
[19:05] <\sh> on edge I don't see any mails ready for moderating
[19:07] <\sh> neither on life
[19:07] <\sh> -f+v
[19:52] <vadi2> Is it possible to see download stats for my project?
[19:52] <vadi2> (for files)
[19:58] <statik> vadi2: we don't collect those currently, sorry
[19:59] <vadi2> :(. any chance you will be? that's healthy for the ego & project
[20:00] <statik> vadi2: we'd like to do it, it's not that we are against it or anything, but the work hasn't been scheduled yet so I don't have a specific timeline I could give you
[20:00] <vadi2> alright
[20:31] <oubiwann> hey folks, I'm getting the "please try again" page when trying to access http://bazaar.launchpad.net
[20:31] <oubiwann> is this a known current issue?
[20:44] <tbielawa> oubiwann, when i click that link it loads properly for me
[20:45] <oubiwann> tbielawa: yup, it's loading properly again
[20:51] <Rinchen> hmm oubiwann that's interest
[20:51] <Rinchen> ing
[20:52] <Rinchen> mthaddon / herb - can you guys do a quick check on the logs.  ^^  I had some similar issues with edge this morning.
[20:53] <mthaddon> Rinchen, codebrowse is down - I'll restart
[20:53] <Rinchen> blech. Thanks
[20:54] <mthaddon> oubiwann, please try now
[20:54] <oubiwann> yup, it's loading quickly
[20:54] <oubiwann> looking great :-)
[20:54] <Rinchen> I'm looking forward to the updates to codebrowse coming in the next few weeks.
[20:55] <mthaddon> oubiwann, we're working on a more permanent fix - thx for the patience
[20:55]  * Rinchen crosses his fingers. :-)
[22:42] <db-keen> I've noticed that code imports have been rather slow lately. Some registered by myself and others have been waiting for import 2+ weeks. How soon might these imports occur?
[22:44] <mwhudson> db-keen: argh, yes we have a backlog like no other :/
[22:44] <mwhudson> db-keen: which is the import?
[22:50] <db-keen> mwhudson: well, there's a couple of significance to me, but https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/xapian/1.0 has been waiting for 4 weeks
[22:51] <mwhudson> db-keen: generally we only import trunk branches
[22:51] <db-keen> I see
[22:51] <db-keen> well, then how about https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/xruby/trunk
[22:51] <mwhudson> and there's https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/xapian/trunk already
[22:52] <db-keen> good point
[22:52] <mwhudson> db-keen: i've approved xruby, but imports from google code are very unreliable :(
[23:03] <rmo25> hi, i just reported my first bug on launchpad, and then discovered a bug *in* launchpad
[23:03] <rmo25> and unfortunately, the latter bug prevents me from logging into launchpad to report it!
[23:03] <Peng> Nice. Go on.
[23:04] <rmo25> i changed my email address from robochshorn@gmail.com to rmo25@cornell.edu
[23:04] <rmo25> and now when i log in, i get the message: "This account cannot be used."
[23:05] <JeremyC> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mysql/mysql-server/mysql-5.1/annotate/joerg%40mysql.com-20080630105418-7qoe5ehomgrcdb89?file_id=sp1f-row0sel.c-20010217121914-c6o7vqncdgzrorm4pko5tpdlfeyujhvq
[23:05] <rmo25> but i know i'm in the system, because when i type the wrong password, i get the message: "The email address and password do not match."
[23:05] <JeremyC> getting a "Please try again" error consistenyluy
[23:05] <JeremyC> consistently
[23:06] <rmo25> this is the bug i reported: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emacs22/+bug/244701
[23:06] <rmo25> it's a weird bug
[23:07] <rmo25> Peng: should i just make a new account with another email address and report the bug on launchpad?
[23:08] <Peng> I dunno. I'm nobody.
[23:08] <rmo25> ah
[23:08] <rmo25> Peng: do you know the nobodys from the somebodys?
[23:08] <Peng> JeremyC: A lot of people have been having similar issues with mysql-server.
[23:09] <rmo25> I don't even know where to begin!
[23:09] <Peng> Some of them.
[23:09] <vadi2> Hi - I'd like to set the answer contact for a project, but for some reason every team I'm in is listed except the team that is the owner of this project. Is this by design?
[23:10] <LaserJock> rmo25: you tried both addresses at the login?
[23:10] <rmo25> LaserJock: yes
[23:11] <LaserJock> rmo25: and no luck?
[23:11] <LaserJock> same error each time
[23:11] <rmo25> LaserJock: I get "This account cannot be used." with both addresses
[23:11] <LaserJock> I wonder if it could possibly think you're a bot or something
[23:12] <LaserJock> perhaps because you changed addresses quickly after signup or something
[23:12] <rmo25> no, I signed up in 2005 with my gmail address
[23:12] <LaserJock> I'm not a Launchpad admin/developer so I have no idea
[23:12] <LaserJock> ah, ok
[23:12] <rmo25> the hunch i have is that i might at some point have signed up somewhere with my cornell address
[23:13] <rmo25> and then deleted the account or something
[23:13] <LaserJock> mhm, that sounds plausible
[23:13] <rmo25> and that moving to that email address brought both down?
[23:13] <rmo25> plausible...i would definitely characterize that as a "bug" though
[23:13] <LaserJock> for sure
[23:13] <rmo25> and now i lack the facilities to report it properly!
[23:14] <salgado> rmo25, indeed, that's a bug in which we're working on
[23:14] <LaserJock> rmo25: ah, ^^ a person who knows what they're doing shows up ;-)
[23:15] <rmo25> salgado: is there a hack to regain control over my account?
[23:15]  * Yhouse e' away (Sto andando via)
[23:16] <rmo25> ah, this is it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/244499
[23:18] <JeremyC> Hmm, no solution then to access mysql on launchpad eh?
[23:18] <JeremyC> just keep pressing refresh? :)
[23:19] <lifeless> JeremyC: the web viewer?
[23:19] <JeremyC> Yes
[23:19] <lifeless> JeremyC: there has just been a rollout of a new version of the web viewer, and its a little unhealthy. The bzr-lp team are discussing rollback vs fix right now.
[23:20] <JeremyC> Seems like maybe it's just timing out, MySQL tree is too big for launchpad perhaps?
[23:20] <JeremyC> Ahh OK
[23:20] <JeremyC> I'm quite new to launchpad since MySQL just started using it, so I don't really know what to expect
[23:20] <lifeless> JeremyC: it handles mysql fine :)
[23:21] <JeremyC> it doesn't seem to be handling anything just fine at the moment :)
[23:21] <lifeless> mthaddon: ^
[23:22] <salgado> rmo25, your access should be restored as soon as the bug is fixed.  that should happen pretty soon
[23:22] <mthaddon> JeremyC, can you try again now - I restarted a few mins ago
[23:22] <rmo25> salgado: thanks!
[23:23] <JeremyC> mthaddon: same thing
[23:23] <JeremyC> mthaddon: here's the url i'm trying: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mysql/mysql-server/mysql-5.1/annotate/joerg%40mysql.com-20080630105418-7qoe5ehomgrcdb89?file_id=sp1f-row0sel.c-20010217121914-c6o7vqncdgzrorm4pko5tpdlfeyujhvq
[23:23] <mthaddon> JeremyC, ok thx - will take a look
[23:25] <mwhudson> ooh, annotate
[23:25] <mwhudson> those pages can often be pretty slow
[23:27] <mthaddon> is it something we can improve with the new version of codebrowse?
[23:27] <lifeless> mthaddon: it is improved I think
[23:28] <lifeless> mthaddon: because while bzr takes a bit to annotate, loggerhead was doing very nasty things
[23:28] <JeremyC> meanwhile i was just trying to find someone to blame without having to get the entire branch locally :)
[23:31] <JeremyC> is there any thought to have bzr branch download a recent tar.gz to get most of the data and then update itself to the most recent revision through the normal bzr?
[23:32] <lifeless> JeremyC: no; if thats faster there is a bug in bzr :)
[23:32] <JeremyC> hmm
[23:34] <Peng> Nice, I just ran "bzr info -v" on MySQL's branch and it used like 250 MB of RAM. :)
[23:35] <lifeless> Peng: :/
[23:36] <Peng> No kidding!
[23:36] <lifeless> Peng: new index layer coming right up
[23:36] <Peng> Haha.
[23:36] <lifeless> Peng: pull it into a btree-plain index and try again;)
[23:36] <Peng> And I ran it on a poor 360 MB VPS.
[23:38] <radix> I'm trying to use Launchpad's openid provider. It's working, but my consumer library is complaining about something:
[23:38] <radix> Error attempting to use stored discovery information: <openid.consumer.consumer.TypeURIMismatch: Required type http://specs.openid.net/auth/2.0/signon not found in ['http://specs.openid.net/auth/2.0/server'] 
[23:39] <JeremyC> considering how long it takes to branch mysql-server, bzr could provide a lot more status info :)
[23:47] <JeremyC> hrm, getting "Please try again" on revision pages too
[23:47] <JeremyC> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mysql/mysql-server/mysql-5.1/revision/2676
[23:47] <RAOF> I'm playing with the launchpad greasemonkey scripts; particularly the stock-responses one.  How do I add a line-break in the stock response comment?
[23:47]  * JeremyC cries in his beer
[23:49]  * JeremyC realizes he doesn't have a beer
[23:49]  * JeremyC cries harder in his hands
[23:51] <mwhudson> JeremyC: try again, things were being restarted
[23:51] <JeremyC> wooooo, thanks :)
[23:52] <mwhudson> the annotate page still times out though, it seems
[23:53] <JeremyC> i managed to do annotate locally after a bzr branch
[23:53] <JeremyC> so i got the rev number, and now the revision pages are working, so i got what i need
[23:53] <mwhudson> and the page loaded for me on the second try, actually
[23:53] <JeremyC> what bzr command gives output similar in scope to the revision pages?
[23:54] <mwhudson> i guess it's still on the edge of what it can cope with
[23:54] <mwhudson> JeremyC: well, 'bzr diff' mainly
[23:54] <mwhudson> maybe gdiff ?
[23:54] <JeremyC> well, i mean the description of what e.g. rev 2632.1.1 is about
[23:54] <mwhudson> oh
[23:55] <mwhudson> then bzr log --short -r $REVNO
[23:55] <JeremyC> ahh bzr log, ok
[23:55] <JeremyC> i noticed that bzr testament --long == bad :)
[23:55] <JeremyC> sorry, bzr newbie
[23:56] <mwhudson> wow, i didn't even know that testament existed