[03:09] <lamont> so... if I have a random laptop with network-mangler installed, and I want to tell it to STFU and let me manually configure both the wireless interface and the wired interface is that trivial without killing various applets and daemons and such?
[03:09] <RAOF> lamont: Yes.
[03:09] <lamont> how?
[03:10] <RAOF> lamont: Unless it's changed in Intrepid, any configuration of an interface will make NM ignore it.
[03:10] <RAOF> For example: left-click on NM's applet.  Hit "Manual configuration". :)
[03:11] <lamont> kewl
[03:11] <lamont> and afk while it's still light-ish outside
[03:49] <lamont`> RAOF: telling NM 'Manual config' not so much love.  editing /etc/network/interfaces? love
[03:56] <RAOF> lamont: NM->Manual config should be brining up something that edits /etc/network/interfaces.  It didn't?
[03:56] <lamont> it did
[03:57] <RAOF> It just didn't work?
[03:57] <lamont> and I left it there and used my other tool for editing interfaces...
[03:57] <lamont> since the gui is extremely cumbersome, and vi is love
[03:57] <lamont> and then it decided that just because I said manual config, didn't mean that I wanted manual config, and started doing it's thing.
[03:57] <lamont> so I finshed the vi session, and there was love
[03:58] <lamont> after all, my question was "how do I make it STFU", not "how do I edit the config in a nice pretty gui"
[03:58] <lamont> :-)
[03:58] <RAOF> Right.
[04:01] <emgent> morning
[04:02] <lamont> RAOF: and definitely a more elegant hammer than the random kill commands I was using the last time when it pissed me off
[04:22] <saivann> In case a ubuntu developer want to take a look at it, bug 189814 contains very detailed informations about a bug which seems to be clearly well identified.
[04:22] <ubott2> Launchpad bug 189814 in linux "[hardy]computer and touchpad is buggy with BIOS password set" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/189814
[04:23] <TheMuso> Hrm when attempting to install into a kvm image from an iso, the alternate CD, it always seems to freeze at the stage where its instaling the bootloader. This is hardy alternate.
[04:57] <Hobbsee> power!
[04:57] <Hobbsee> electricity!
[04:58] <lifeless> education!
[04:59] <Hobbsee> it's very boring without power :(
[05:00] <persia> Hobbsee: You just need larger solar arrays ...
[05:01] <Hobbsee> persia: i wish.
[05:01] <ScottK> We had a several hour power outage a few months ago and it was kind of fun continually telling our 5 year old that no she couldn't X because there was no power.
[05:01] <ScottK> So I think she would agree.
[05:01] <Hobbsee> haha
[05:02] <persia> I lived in a house for a while with a bank of "Navy Batteries" that didn't have the "No power" issue.  Unfortunately, it did have the "not enough amperage" issue on a regular basis.
[05:04]  * ScottK cheers the new firewall script running without locking me out of the box.
[05:05] <RAOF> THat be a winner.
[05:06] <ion_> BoFH excuse #612: the new firewall script locked everyone out of the box.
[05:07] <Amaranth> I lost power Friday night
[05:07] <Amaranth> was out for 17 hours
[05:07] <TheMuso> Ouch.
[05:07] <Amaranth> yeah
[05:07] <Amaranth> really nasty storm
[05:07] <ion_> That’s #329.
[05:07] <ion_> And ouch, too. :-)
[05:08] <Amaranth> 90mph (144km/h) winds, 120,000 lost power, 2 people died
[05:08] <TheMuso> Really ouch.
[05:08] <RAOF> Eeep.
[05:08] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Where are you?
[05:08] <Amaranth> omaha nebraska
[05:09] <Amaranth> wasn't even a tornado, just wind, rain, and hail
[05:09] <TheMuso> That is nasty.
[05:10] <Amaranth> worst hit part of town is less than a mile from here, we got it pretty bad
[05:11]  * Amaranth 1-ups Hobbsee 
[05:11]  * Amaranth goes to read xkcd
[05:15] <Hobbsee> ouchy
[05:19] <RAOF> !!!
[05:20] <RAOF> Evolution seems to have gone on a no-holds-barred spam hunting expedition.
[05:20] <RAOF> And, in the process, marked almost _everything_ as spam.
[05:21] <TheMuso> hehe
[05:22] <RAOF> So if, say, you've responded to a bug I'm subscribed to and are a little bit surprised I haven't done anything about it...
[05:23] <persia> We should poke you mercilessly and update the bug hourly?
[05:25] <RAOF> Well, until evolution stops classifying all mail as spam, I'll remain blissfully ignorant of your bug updates!
[05:27]  * RAOF wonders where "Sonopia" is, and why he should join someone there.
[05:33] <Hobbsee> persia: do you think you'd be able to write a howto for the sound cards, and getting decent sound on intrepid?
[05:33] <Hobbsee> forums people are advocating all sorts of crack
[05:34] <Hobbsee> or i could be not lazy, adn do it myself, i guess.
[05:35] <RAOF> Hobbsee: Are you referring to the pc speaker thingy, or what?  I haven't noticed sound problems?
[05:35] <ion_> “forums people are advocating all sorts of crack” – business as usual. :-)
[05:35] <persia> Hobbsee: I'll write the MOTU Meeting minutes for you, if you'll write the HOWTO for sound card selection.
[05:35] <StevenK> Heh, yes
[05:36] <Hobbsee> RAOF: yes
[05:36] <Hobbsee> persia: deal.
[05:36] <Hobbsee> persia: i knew i had something outstanding.
[05:36] <Hobbsee> ion_: it's only safe to say that when you're in a room not full of forums people :P
[05:36] <Hobbsee> ion_: i tested this out in sevilla.
[05:37]  * persia appoints Hobbsee high-user-educator-for-all-things-alsa
[05:38] <ion_> hobbsee: :-)
[05:40] <Hobbsee> ion_: iirc, it was the planet editorial spec, and they were talking about what to do if information gets published on the forums where it shouldn't.  I suggested that there was often a lot of incorrect information on there anyway that it was unlikely that the correct rumours would blend in rather well with it - or something similar to that.
[05:40] <Hobbsee> perhaps that wasn't such a good idea :P
[05:41] <ion_> Hehe
[05:49] <Amaranth> it scares me that the intrepid forum is the 346th they've made
[06:33] <dholbach> good morning
[06:43] <Hobbsee> hey dholbach
[06:49] <dholbach> hi Hobbsee
[06:51] <jengelh> kirkland: then if you are so unhappy about pam_mount, why not report the bugs?
[06:53] <geser> Hi Hobbsee, dholbach
[06:54] <dholbach> hiya geser
[06:54] <Hobbsee> hey geser!
[07:58] <sistpoty|work> mvo: do you happen to know some details about libcap vs. libcap2? (zsh b-d on libcap2-dev nowadays, but that's in universe)
[08:25] <mvo> sistpoty|work: I'm somewhat disconnected from it (hasn't seen changes in a long time) but my understanding is that libcap2 used to be a cvs snapshot and provides essentially the same functionality
[08:25] <sistpoty|work> mvo: ah, k.. thanks... then I'll try to rebuild zsh with libcap1 instead :)
[08:26] <mvo> ok, good luck
[08:39] <fabbione> morning guys
[08:39] <siretart> hey fabbione!
[08:39] <fabbione> ogra: you around?
[08:39] <fabbione> hi siretart
[08:40] <siretart> how are you? I haven't seen you for quite some time!
[08:40] <fabbione> i am doing fine, you?
[08:40] <fabbione> yeah i don't spend a lot of time on IRC anymore
[08:42] <siretart> ah, right. I'm doing fine as well, now working at the university, and probably doing some research that will involve work in ubuntu/debian, we'll see ;)
[09:14] <asac> ogra_cmpc: ever opened a bug for the nss issue?
[09:35] <Iulian> Good morning.
[09:39] <asac> ogra: ping ;)
[09:54] <asac> soren: there?
[09:54] <soren> asac: Oui.
[09:55] <asac> soren: about NM-Xvpn :)
[09:55] <asac> soren: i have updated 0.7 packages in ~network-manager ppa and want to update the vpn plugins
[09:57] <asac> Ng: you want to test NM 0.7 on hardy? :)
[09:57] <tjaalton> asac: I do!
[09:57] <asac> Ng: the ~network-manager PPA has hardy packages
[09:57] <asac> they should be fine
[09:58] <asac> https://edge.launchpad.net/~network-manager/+archive
[09:58] <tjaalton> oh, sorry, not hardy
[09:58] <asac> tjaalton: intrepid?
[09:58] <tjaalton> asac: yeah, dist-upgraded yesterday :)
[09:58] <asac> takes a few more days as it doesnt compile due to gcc pickiness
[09:58] <tjaalton> ah, ok
[09:58] <Ng> asac: yeah :) thanks
[09:58] <asac> tjaalton: lucky you. i am still waiting for 8.04.1 before upgrading :/
[09:59] <tjaalton> asac: well I need to test the new x stuff as promised ;)
[10:00] <asac> Ng: only thing to remember is that you might need to sudo killall wpa_supplicant after resume
[10:00] <asac> otherwise it works great here
[10:00] <Ng> asac: ok. I'll chuck it on at lunchtime and file some bugs ;)
[10:00] <soren> asac: Oh, I see. Erm...
[10:00] <asac> Ng: hehe. yeah
[10:00] <soren> asac: I really don't have the time to work on them right now,  I'm afraid.
[10:00] <asac> soren: sure. i can take them over i guess
[10:01] <soren> That would be lovely!
[10:01] <asac> soren: did you always rip them out of the NM svn?
[10:01] <asac> soren: or did they just recently move to a subdirectory of the svn tree?
[10:01] <soren> asac: Yep. I don't think there was ever a proper release of any of them.
[10:02] <soren> Oh, no, they've been right there all the time.
[10:03] <asac> soren: do you maintain them in debian too?
[10:03] <soren> asac: In theory, yes.
[10:03] <asac> soren: now mbiebl took over?
[10:04] <soren> asac: Well, they're in the pkg-utopia thing.
[10:04] <soren> asac: ..so I guess they're meant to be a bit of a group effort anyway.
[10:04] <asac> soren: how did they end up there?
[10:04] <soren> mbiebl was my sponsor from the beginning, and he suggested we put them there.
[10:05] <soren> In retrospect, I wish we hadn't, though. The main thing that has kept me away from working on it is that svn-buildpackage kept getting in my way. :/
[10:05] <asac> soren: ok, but you are Maintainer: ?
[10:06] <asac> soren: if so, we can move them to the ~network-manager team in launchpad ;)
[10:06] <soren> Ah, yes.
[10:06] <asac> soren: if you still need a sponsor i can do it too
[10:07] <soren> asac: I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
[10:09] <asac> soren: hmm. so move the branch or not move?
[10:10] <asac> soren: i need to know what and how to do ;)
[10:11] <soren> Well, we can put the ubuntu packages there, no problem.
[10:11] <soren> I'd need to talk to mbiebl about the Debian packages.
[10:12] <broonie> soren: Are there any plans to look at the issues with n-m reporting connected status too early?
[10:13] <soren> broonie: bug number?
[10:13] <broonie> Don't know off-hand, let's see if I can find any in lp....
[10:14] <broonie> 152794 looks like one of them.
[10:14] <asac> soren: I'd like to not duplicate work on those packages
[10:15] <asac> soren: i am still trying to convince mbieble to join efforts, but he appears to be not really interested
[10:15] <broonie> (the bit where it gets a connected status reported but no IP configuration yet - only seems to happen for some cards/systems)
[10:18] <soren> bug 152794
[10:20] <mvo_> asac, I just tested it here on my laptop, works nice, but a reboot is required, otherwise it gets pretty unhappy
[10:20] <soren> asac: I totally understand. My other main problem was that I was really more interested in getting stuff into Ubuntu, so the process was: a) Get it into Ubuntu, b)  rework package to get it into Debian, c) do useless merge.
[10:25] <asac> mvo_: how?
[10:25] <asac> (unhappy)
[10:26] <asac> soren: right. I'd suggest -> we maintain the packages in bzr and inject to debian
[10:26] <asac> then sync them down to ubuntu :)
[10:27] <asac> i think NM 0.7 is or is about to be in debian experimental. so we could upload there.
[10:28] <mvo_> asac, the icon was displayed but showed that no network was attached and the terminal printed something about a dbus method that could not be resolved
[10:28] <soren> asac: That sounds great.
[10:28] <mvo_> asac, sorry, I haven't investigated further
[10:29] <mvo_> the test machine was crashing then (unreleated most likely) and I had to reboot
[11:12] <asac> soren: so how to proceed? i suggested to mbiebl that we rebase the branches on top of the "official" gnome bzr mirror: http://bzr-mirror.gnome.org/
[11:12] <asac> soren: now the vpn plugins are somewhat not available as a top-level project.
[11:12] <asac> does this mean we cant do it?
[11:14] <asac> maybe we should just build them in the network-manager source package ;)
[11:17] <soren> asac: Well, IIRC the vpn plugins aren't in the network-manager release tarballs?
[11:17] <soren> asac: They're only there now because the package is based on an svn snapshot.
[11:18] <Riddell> lool: why is sdk-default-icons a native package?  also why the generic name?
[11:21] <lool> Riddell: Debian renamed it to something more specific; I used the usptream name as used at maemo.org
[11:21] <soren> asac: But apart from that, it makes perfect sense to build them out of the n-m source package.
[11:21] <lool> Riddell: and also the name we were using in gutsy
[11:22] <Riddell> lool: why don't we sync it from debian?
[11:22] <lool> Riddell: It's not in Debian yet
[11:22] <Riddell> lool: well if debian renamed it, we should too
[11:22] <lool> Riddell: I worked on it for Ubuntu and when we discussed it in the Debian chan there was interest for it; I didn't expect to push it to Debian when I started work on it
[11:22] <lool> Riddell: Indeed; so please kick it out
[11:23] <lool> Riddell: We'll use whatever name Debian accepts
[11:23] <lool> And concerning the native package, it looks like I misnamed my orig tarball
[11:23] <lool> I had to repack upstream's to drop debian/ IIRC
[11:31] <siretart> Riddell: could you please remove the source package named 'ffmpeg' from intrepid? It has been superseeded by 'ffmpeg-free'
[11:31] <cjwatson> you can file bugs for removals, and we're not especially far behind on our bug queue ...
[11:32] <ogra> asac, hmm, i was sure i had ...
[11:32] <ogra> fabbione, pong (sorry, slept in, i had a long night)
[11:32] <Riddell> siretart: yeah, bug please, I'll get to it in a bit
[11:32] <siretart> ah, okay, will do
[11:33] <asac> ogra: at least you didnt give me the bug id ;)
[11:33]  * asac searching
[11:34] <ogra> its weird, i could swear i did but cant find it myself
[11:34] <asac> ogra: did you search for all bugs by "reporter ogra"?
[11:35] <ogra> no, i searched my evo bug folder where usually all lp mail lands
[11:35] <ogra> (and which is ten times faqster than LP :) )
[11:36] <asac> soren: the svn tags (and bzr branches) contain vpn-daemon for 0.6
[11:36] <asac> soren: guess that means we can just use NM. now we need to convince debian :(
[11:36] <StevenK> Can I bug an archive admin to look at bug 236979 ?
[11:38] <cjwatson> StevenK: doing
[11:38] <StevenK> cjwatson: Thank you :-)
[11:40] <cjwatson> StevenK: so the Ubuntu patch just isn't needed any more for some unspecified reason?
[11:40] <ogra> asac, wow, i used tracker for the first time ever :)
[11:40]  * ogra hands asac Bug 242379
[11:40] <StevenK> cjwatson: Well, it was a fix an FTBFS in Hardy, it doesn't fail to build. I can track it down explicity if you wish.
[11:41] <persia> I tracked it down previously, and will comment in the bug to indicate as much.
[11:41] <cjwatson> StevenK: how about this, you get to reinstate it if it fails to build on the buildds ;-)
[11:42] <StevenK> cjwatson: Happy to fix it if it breaks :-)
[11:48] <fabbione> ogra: ehhe no worries....
[11:48] <fabbione> ogra: do you still have that dvb-t card around you mentioned a while ago?
[11:49] <asac> ogra: triaged ;)
[11:52] <ogra> fabbione, yes, want me to test anything ?
[11:53] <fabbione> ogra: yes if you can.. i am having problems with my dvb-t card on intrepid kernels and with updated drivers from dvb-t tree.
[11:53] <ogra> (i might need to rebild the kernel for that, the dvb-usb fix i need is only in intrepid afaik)
[11:54] <fabbione> I am trying to nail down if the problem is my specific driver
[11:54] <fabbione> or the general dvb subsystem
[11:54] <fabbione> i can't even scan for channels basically
[11:54] <ogra> did it work in hardy ?
[11:54] <fabbione> yeps
[11:54] <fabbione> but as i said, i am trying to nail the problem within the subsystem
[11:54] <fabbione> or the driver
[11:54] <fabbione> testing another driver is not an option as i only have one card
[11:55] <ogra> hmm, i know pitti did a lot of work on the tools there are packages in his ppa
[11:55] <fabbione> so if you could fire up intrepid kernel and tell me if you can scan for channles that would be awesome
[11:55] <fabbione> ok?
[11:55] <fabbione> so it might be userland that needs smashing?
[11:56] <fabbione> there was a thread on one of the fedora mailing lists that the userland interface was broken by mistake but it was also fixed again before rc8 AFAIK
[11:56] <ogra> not sure, pitti ?
[11:56] <fabbione> maybe the change is not in ubuntu yet... that is entirely possible
[11:56] <ogra> i know there was a fix in dvb-usb
[11:57] <ogra> without that my card oopsed
[11:57] <fabbione> ok..
[11:57] <fabbione> well anyway if you have time to give it a shot that would be great.. otherwise no worries
[11:57] <fabbione> i will just wait the next kernel
[11:57] <ogra> gimme some time, i have no intrepid install here, need to upgrade one machine first
[11:58]  * ogra is stuck with hardy for subnotebook work :(
[11:59] <fabbione> please don't kill your machine for me :)
[11:59] <fabbione> it's really not important
[12:03] <ogra> well, i'll test it anyway, will just take some time... stay around and i'll ping you if i know more
[12:03] <fabbione> ok cool thanks
[12:04]  * ogra still didnt find the time to install his dvb-s card :( its lying on the shelf since nearly a year
[12:04] <ogra> )
[12:04] <laga> bah
[12:04] <laga> you're too lazy.
[12:04] <ogra> haha
[12:15] <asac> StevenK: if liferea just builds with xulrunner-1.9-dev we need to check if the startscript is ok. otherwise sync and provide the debian -dev package name
[12:18] <asac> StevenK: hmm. we still have the ubuntu feeds. nevermind
[12:24] <bliZZardz> when would pitti be online? any idea?
[12:25] <halex> wasn't he on earlier, or am i imagining things?
[12:25] <bliZZardz> i see him online..
[12:26] <Pici> bliZZardz: Hes been idle for 4 days, his away message says "holidays, back next Wednesday"
[12:26] <bliZZardz> Pici : thanks... :)
[12:27] <bliZZardz> i can ask the Q here at the expense of it being OT. If someone can shed somelight , then it would be great
[12:27] <cjwatson> it's generally better to Just Ask
[12:27] <bliZZardz> was wondering how DBus is being used in GNOME? when callbacks are already present as part of the GTK. How is Dbus implemented? Sockets?
[12:28] <cjwatson> GTK callbacks implement in-process communication, not inter-process communication
[12:28] <bliZZardz> ok.makes sense - corollary to that Q : do callbacks leverage multi-core?
[12:29] <StevenK> cjwatson: Note the lack of opal build failures. :-)
[12:29] <StevenK> cjwatson: Now to teach me a lesson, sparc, powerpc and ia64 will fail. :-P
[12:29] <bliZZardz> cjwatson : and hints on other Qs?
[12:29] <cjwatson> StevenK: heh, cool
[12:30] <Company> bliZZardz: glib callbacks are single-thread as they guarantee execution before the callback emitting function returns
[12:31] <bliZZardz> Company, and DBus uses IPC - is this using sockets?
[12:31] <cjwatson> bliZZardz: I don't know all the answers. As an example, processes that require administrative privileges mostly now call out to PolicyKit over D-BUS to gain authorisation.
[12:31] <Company> bliZZardz: yes
[12:31] <cjwatson> bliZZardz: it might be worth reading the D-BUS documentation
[12:32] <Company> bliZZardz: dbus is IPC using unix sockets
[12:32] <cjwatson> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus
[12:32] <bliZZardz> cjwatson : i even looked at teh source - it is a little confusing, would be better if i get some guide who can show me the door
[12:32] <cjwatson> start with the documentation, not the osurce
[12:32] <cjwatson> source
[12:34] <bliZZardz> cjwatson : so where is it being used in GTK? i couldnt find the reference of Dbus in GNOME - though am finding some references the other wat
[12:34] <bliZZardz> *s/wat/way/
[12:35] <cjwatson> bliZZardz: it's not used in GTK itself
[12:36] <cjwatson> bliZZardz: a variety of GNOME applications use it
[12:36] <bliZZardz> cjwatson : can you name a few?
[12:36] <azeem> bliZZardz: grep your Packages.gz
[12:37] <cjwatson> 'apt-cache rdepends libdbus-1-3'
[12:37] <cjwatson> you can then use 'apt-get source' to get source for individual packages there
[12:37] <bliZZardz> cjwatson : ah...good one. missed it completely :)
[12:43] <james_w> I'm merging a package which introduces init scripts. I switched the dh_installinit command to not install symlinks for runleves 1 and 6, however, I left the priority for runlevel 1 the same.
[12:44] <YokoZar> Do the build daemons now autoinstall recommends by default as well?
[12:45] <james_w> I see that there is a bug that means that really this should be set to (100-priority). I can easily do this, as the package has not hit the archive so there is no transition to worry about. However, is there a danger that acting unilaterally would break something else? (i.e. stopping earlier than dependent services)
[12:45] <ogra> apt does .... the buildds use apt ...
[12:45]  * ogra would expect so 
[12:45] <james_w> I don't think there are any dependent services in this case, so I believe it should be safe, but can it be assumed to be so in every case?
[12:46] <YokoZar> ogra: They might be passing funny switches.  I'm not sure how it works when you have pbuilder using satisfy-build-depends = gdebi, for instance...
[12:49] <cjwatson> james_w: it's 0 and 6 that we normally disable, not 1 and 6
[12:50] <james_w> cjwatson: yes, sorry, 0 and 6
[12:50] <cjwatson> james_w: I don't think we can always assume it to be safe, which is one reason we haven't really worried much about changing all those to date :-)
[12:52] <james_w> cjwatson: thanks.
[13:00] <Keybuk> ok, my laptop is definitely doing odd suspend/resume things
[13:00] <Keybuk> it appears to suspend as normal
[13:00] <Keybuk> but when I press the power button to resume it, it just boots
[13:01] <ogra> Keybuk, try blacklisting the button module
[13:01] <Keybuk> (and usplash still prevents the X server from starting)
[13:01] <ogra> i had similar probs on the classmate
[13:02] <Keybuk> ogra: I tried that, it just stopped the power button doing anything
[13:02] <ogra> SUSPEND_MODULES="button" in /etc/pm/config.d/default
[13:02] <ogra> hmm
[13:10] <StevenK> asac: So, we do need to merge liferea? Should I drop the patches aside the Ubuntu RSS feeds list, and see if the dratted thing builds?
[13:25] <emgent> morning
[13:26] <soren> No, it isn't.
[13:27] <Hobbsee> evening soren!
[13:28] <soren> No, it isn't evening either. :/
[13:28] <Keybuk> it's Mailman Day *and* Abel & Cole Day ... double celebration!
[13:34] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i hope you're advocating listadmin as much as possible today, then.
[13:34] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh, and reping!
[13:35] <Keybuk> reping?
[13:35] <Hobbsee> re-ping, as you didn't answer the first one.
[13:35] <Hobbsee> is there any chance you can set an address for ubuntu-core-dev on launchpad please?
[13:36] <Hobbsee> it would save us all getting spammed every time someone decided that it'd be a good idea to assign a bug to them.
[13:36] <Hobbsee> ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com is probably a good one.
[13:38] <Keybuk> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-devel-discuss
[13:38] <Keybuk> lol
[13:39] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: merge the accounts?
[13:39] <ogra> its all calcs fault !
[13:39] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: the merge mail probably hit the mailing list
[13:39] <Keybuk> or maybe the moderation queue
[13:39] <Keybuk> who has mod access to u-d-d ?
[13:40] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: may well?
[13:40] <Hobbsee> i don't, i've only got it to u-d
[13:40] <asac> StevenK: yes, keep that + the other patch introduced by fta
[13:41] <cjwatson> Hobbsee: I don't think I do
[13:41] <Keybuk> listadmin says evand
[13:41] <asac> StevenK: fix_systray_behavior
[13:42]  * Keybuk tries to find a duckie who isn't at the QBR festival of love
[13:42] <StevenK> QBR festival of love?
[13:44] <lifeless> hi
[13:45] <Keybuk> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-devel
[13:45] <Keybuk> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-devel-discuss
[13:45] <Keybuk> make those go away please ;)
[14:03] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: the answer would appear to be No.
[14:03] <Keybuk> I cannot change the contact address
[14:03] <Keybuk> \o/ LP
[14:04] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: why?
[14:05] <Keybuk> because LP has automatically created accounts for those addresses
[14:05] <Keybuk> repeatedly it strikes me that LP's auto account creation is more trouble than its worth
[14:07] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: you can't merge them?
[14:07] <Keybuk> nope
[14:08] <Hobbsee> or force a rubber ducky to merge them?
[14:08] <Hobbsee> but why?
[14:08] <Keybuk> seems that LP decided they're teams, so they can't be merged
[14:08] <Hobbsee> teams can still be merged with other teams, surely?
[14:09] <wgrant> Hobbsee: At ducky request.
[14:10] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: so requests from ducks fail, i presume?
[14:10] <wgrant> It was deemed a restricted enough use-case that it wasn't to be exposed in the UI.
[14:10] <Hobbsee> !!!
[14:11] <Keybuk> ducks just get OOPS
[14:11] <Hobbsee> ah
[14:12] <wgrant> So you need a superduck.
[14:12] <wgrant> Can't a duck unassign the email address, at least?
[14:13]  * Hobbsee finds it odd that such a decision was made, when autocreating accounts of teams or people, yet deciding that merging a team to be a corner case.  Because in almost all cases of teams created, they will want to be merged with a real team at some point - whether it exists now or later.
[14:13] <Keybuk> more OOPS
[14:13] <Hobbsee> yay, launchpad.
[14:14] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: okay, i'll attempt to poke.  i'm really not liking the fact that people can spam 50 or so people with a click of a button.
[14:15] <wgrant> I guess this is the same reason that MOTU Media maintains every package in universe.
[14:15] <wgrant> Er, all modified packages.
[14:16] <Hobbsee> probably
[14:16] <Hobbsee> oh, wait.  they attempted to get that one merged, and i don't remember the problem being an oops.
[14:16] <Hobbsee> but i don't remember what it was...
[14:16] <wgrant> It wasn't supported at the time.
[14:18] <ScottK> Argh.  Are the Perl Artistic license and 4 clause BSD (with the advertising clause) compatible?  I think so, but am looking for second opinions.
[14:21] <Riddell> mvo_, pitti: bug 241431 SRU for feisty looks ok to accept, should I?
[14:22] <mvo_> Riddell: I proposed it so I should probably not be the one who has the final say. it would be nice
[14:23] <mvo_> Riddell: pitti is on leave today
[14:26] <mnabil> guys, how can i revert the last ubuntu update, i mean i need to return the state before the last update(remove the last update)
[14:26] <Keybuk> tests/com.netsplit.Nih.Test_impl.h:31: warning: array ‘my_interfaces’ assumed to have one element
[14:26] <Keybuk> gnargh
[14:26] <Keybuk> I hate C sometimes
[14:27]  * Keybuk tries to remember how to declare in the header that there's an array of pointers in the C file
[14:28] <dholbach> thekorn: is there a bigger problem with the HTML connector right now? :)
[14:28] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: s.th. like "extern (int*)[20];" iirc... not to sure if I got the braces right though
[14:29] <Keybuk> it's the [20] bit I don't want to do
[14:29] <Keybuk> since the struct is just declared *foo[] = { ... }
[14:29] <thekorn> dholbach, oh, dont know, let me check
[14:31] <Riddell> ScottK: I would expect so, might depend on the exact form of mixing
[14:31] <Riddell> mnabil: support in #ubuntu
[14:31] <nxvl> good morning!
[14:32] <dholbach> thekorn: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24205 :-/
[14:32] <dholbach> (that's with pylpbugs/main
[14:32] <dholbach> )
[14:33] <ogra> Laney, hey
[14:34] <Laney> ogra: Hi
[14:34] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: int (*foo)[] ?
[14:34] <ogra> Laney, did you check debian for the xaos update ? can we just sync it ?
[14:35] <Laney> ogra: It's been orphaned, there is no update
[14:35] <sistpoty|work> erm... my foo is the name of the variable not of the type though
[14:35] <Laney> ogra: I do plan on working with whoever to get my new version in Debian though
[14:35] <ogra> Laney, well, i was pondering to take it over in debian, since it falls into the edubuntu package list i maintain anyway
[14:36] <ogra> but i'm extremely busy atm so it might still take a week before i can look into that
[14:36] <ogra> Laney, are you upstream ?
[14:36] <Laney> ogra: Oh, well I'm almost ready to upload my new version to LP. Perhaps you could use that when you get time
[14:36] <Laney> ogra: No, just looked through the list on ubuntuwire and picked that out
[14:37] <ogra> can you ping upstream to take your fixes ?
[14:37] <Laney> Shall do
[14:37] <thekorn> dholbach, ok thanks, this is fixed in my intrepid.merge branch,
[14:37] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: that works only as argument of a function of course... you can't declare a variable like that (since no storage size)
[14:37]  * dholbach hugs thekorn
[14:37] <dholbach> awesome
[14:37] <ogra> Laney, thanks a lot :)
[14:37]  * ogra hugs Laney 
[14:37] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: sure you can, storage size is inferred from the initialisation ;)
[14:37]  * Laney hugs ogra
[14:37] <Laney> ogra: Are you a DD?
[14:37] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: oh, you want to initialize it in the header?
[14:37] <ogra> nope, only UD ...
[14:38] <Laney> Bah, OK
[14:38] <Keybuk> no, initialise in the C, but make it extern
[14:38] <Laney> Was hoping you would be able to sponsor it ;)
[14:38] <Laney> But no matter
[14:38] <thekorn> dholbach, I hope to merge this two branches soon
[14:38] <ogra> but xaos woul be a good opportunity to go for DD :)
[14:38]  * thekorn hugs dholbach 
[14:38] <ogra> Laney, i can find someone
[14:38] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: I'm not too sure that's possible... from what should any other compilation unit know the storage size then?
[14:38] <Laney> mmk
[14:39] <dholbach> thekorn: it'd be nice to get at least into the PPA too
[14:39] <Laney> Just porting the patches to quilt, then will put the diff up
[14:39] <Keybuk> /usr/bin/ld: Warning: size of symbol `my_interfaces' changed from 8 in test_com_netsplit_Nih_Test_object-test_com.netsplit.Nih.Test_object.o to 24 in test_com_netsplit_Nih_Test_object-com.netsplit.Nih.Test_impl.o
[14:39] <Keybuk> oops
[14:39] <Keybuk> :p
[14:40] <thekorn> dholbach, https://edge.launchpad.net/~bughelper-dev/+archive has all these changes (~ppa4 or something)
[14:40] <dholbach> ah ok
[14:40] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: trouble is I can't find any way to make it visible at al
[14:41] <nxvl> dholbach: would you please do one more build for me?
[14:41] <Keybuk> only way so far
[14:41] <Keybuk> is in the .h declare it as a **
[14:42] <Keybuk> in the .c declare static as a *[] and then a second extern as ** taking its address
[14:42] <dholbach> nxvl: can you ask somebody else? I'm quite busy right now - I can do it later
[14:42] <nxvl> dholbach: ok, thanks anyway :D
[14:42] <nxvl> did someone has an amd64 machine and want to build a package and run lintian for me?
[14:50] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: you mean s.th. like that? http://paste.ubuntu.com/24209/
[14:50] <nxvl> sistpoty|work: i think i have it
[14:50] <sistpoty|work> nxvl: excellent!
[14:51] <nxvl> sistpoty|work: and raphink says he has test it
[14:51] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: except I don't want the [2] in the header
[14:51] <nxvl> sistpoty|work: and now it works
[14:52] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: you can't do that. otherwise gcc cannot determine the storage size of instance_of_foo (and e.g. the sizeof would fail)
[14:52] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: so how do I use that array outside of that C file? :)
[14:52] <Keybuk> even declaring it static foo **instance_of_foo = {
[14:52] <Keybuk> doesn't work
[14:55] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: oh, I forgot to declare the type foo in the header
[14:55] <sistpoty|work> (instead of in the c file)
[14:56] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: then you can simply use s.th. like "instance_of_foo[1]->x"
[14:56] <Keybuk> ?
[14:57] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24213/
[14:57] <sistpoty|work> meh... pastebin doesn't like me
[14:58] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: now: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24214/
[14:58] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: you still have [2] in the header
[14:58] <Keybuk> which is the bit I don't want :p
[15:01] <sistpoty|work> that's where it gets tricky *g*
[15:02] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: I'm not entirely sure, but imo "extern struct foo **instance_of_foo;" should be the right thing
[15:05] <Laney> ogra: New .diff.gz uploaded if you're interested :D
[15:06] <ogra> i'll take a look if i find time
[15:07]  * ogra is swamped with building some custom images
[15:07] <Laney> Well I've subscribed the sponsors queue anyway, so no need for you to specifically review it
[15:07] <Laney> Just though you might like to know
[15:07]  * Laney is out for a bit, bye all
[15:09] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: hah: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24220/
[15:09] <sistpoty|work> (I was not aware c allows such wonky things in the first place)
[15:22] <cjwatson> sistpoty|work: C allows a significant amount of wonk, as long as it fits neatly into machine implementations ;-)
[15:22] <sistpoty|work> heh
[15:29] <geser> has someone an idea why the build of libgnupg-interface-perl fails? (http://launchpadlibrarian.net/15667866/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-i386.libgnupg-interface-perl_0.36-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz)
[15:30] <geser> I don't have an idea why it can't find gpg which is installed
[15:30] <Hobbsee> geser: no build-dep on gnupg?
[15:30] <Hobbsee> oh, hm.
[15:31]  * Hobbsee wonders if the gpg is actually in the chroot itself, or only gets used before the unpacking, and the unpacked bits get fed to sbuild.
[15:32] <Keybuk> sistpoty|work: that doesn't work
[15:33] <geser> Hobbsee: dpkg-source is run inside the chroot, right?
[15:33] <persia> Hobbsee: In the repo sbuild, it unpacks in the chroot, without a secondary chroot.
[15:34] <Hobbsee> ahhh
[15:34] <Hobbsee> geser: i don't know the internals of sbuild :)
[15:34] <geser> I wander also about the "sh: gcc: not found" message (but I guess it's unrelated)
[15:34] <geser> s/wander/wonder/
[15:35] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: hm? works in the test case... are you using -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE? (I could assume that would implicitely add a sizeof then, and hence would bail out)
[15:35] <Keybuk> I am
[15:36] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: hm... then I can only think of a little trick to still make it work... give me a sec
[15:36] <Keybuk> the only way I could come up with was declaring it static in the .c
[15:36] <Keybuk> declaring a ** that took the address of it
[15:36] <Keybuk> then making that extern
[15:38] <Keybuk> oh, great
[15:38] <Keybuk> the laptop suspended mid-update
[15:39] <persia> On the list of things that should block suspend: add "high CPU or IO load", which often means one went for a beverage whilst waiting.
[15:40] <Keybuk> that's not the problem
[15:40] <Keybuk> the problem is that the laptop currently doesn't want to resume from suspend
[15:40] <ogra> i think g-p-m has a gconf key for that
[15:40] <ogra> to check for CPU usage before suspending
[15:41] <ogra>  /apps/gnome-power-manager/general/check_type_cpu
[15:42] <ogra> silly name
[15:42] <Ng> what if you have a stupid screensaver going? it'll never suspend
[15:42] <Ng> shouldn't the update thing be emitting the suspend inhibiting signal?
[15:42] <ogra> thats why its disabled by default i guess :)
[15:42] <persia> ogra: Right.  It's just whether we turn them on.  If we didn't suspend for all the possible reasons, we'd not often suspend.
[15:43] <persia> Ng: On the device I suspend most often, I have the screensaver configured to only load on mains power.  If I'm on battery, I'd rather suspend than do a screen-saver cycle (mind you, it takes ~1 sec to wake up, which helps).
[15:43] <ogra> persia, i dont maintain g-p-m anymore so i rarely look at it nowadays :) but that key was never enabled ...
[15:44]  * ogra finds the network_sleep key and wonders why we still use pm-utils scripts to shut down NM on suspend
[15:45] <Ng> ogra: could be because we remove network modules too
[15:47] <ogra> well, then we can leave the list of modules in SUSPEND_MODULES and not maintain the extra scripts
[15:47] <ogra> pm-utils and g-p-m have proper functions for that, no need to duplicate them
[15:48] <sistpoty|work> Keybuk: yes, your solution seems the best one imho
[15:58] <geser> Hobbsee: please give-back pbuilder. Thanks.
[15:58] <Hobbsee> geser: given back
[15:59] <MacSlow> how can I best inject a freshly built goffice (from my PPA) in my intrepid-pbuilder environemnt?
[15:59] <MacSlow> can I just extend my /etc/apt/sources.list under the pbuilder-intrepid environment with my PPA?
[16:00] <geser> add your PPA to your pbuilder
[16:00] <MacSlow> geser, ah ok
[16:13] <sistpoty|work> cya
[16:15] <MacSlow> hm... the build did not automatically pick up the goffcie 0.6.3 from my PPA while trying to build gnumeric 1.8.3
[16:15] <MacSlow> but I guess I found the reason
[16:16] <seb128> build-depends not strict enough?
[16:16] <ogra> PPAs are not signed ....
[16:17] <ogra> you will likely run into probs with any autobuilder (i.e. pbuilder) wih that
[16:17] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: did you, by any chance, edit your /e/a/sources.list when logged into pbuilder, then quit that, then run pbuilder build foo.dsc?
[16:18] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, I know that his kill all my changes to it... as it recreates the environment from scratch each time
[16:19] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, but right now I'm staying logged in and do all the changes in one session
[16:19] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: that's correct, but i don't think that answered my question?
[16:19] <Hobbsee> ah right.
[16:19] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: i presume you ran an apt-get update after editing the sources list, inside?
[16:19] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, edited sources.list -> apt-get update -> apt-get install ...
[16:20] <Hobbsee> ogra: it'll whine, sure, but i didn't think it was a terminal error?
[16:20] <MacSlow> and now I've my goffice 0.6.3 from my ppa installed
[16:20] <ogra> Hobbsee, for me it stops then ...
[16:20] <Hobbsee> ogra: oh.
[16:20] <MacSlow> ogra I just got a warning and said "Yes" to continue with the installation
[16:20] <ogra> oyu have to set the pbuilder apt opts to allow unauthenticated
[16:21] <ogra> oh, right, if yu do that nteractive :)
[16:21] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: for one thing, you dont' want to install anything extra, before you run the build.
[16:21]  * ogra has scripts that run various pbuilder thingies ... these will hang forever 
[16:22] <MacSlow> Hobbsee, but apart from what I do now I don't see how I could test building my merged gnumeric
[16:22]  * Hobbsee is also confused at the order you've done things.
[16:22] <MacSlow> it needs goffice 0.6.3
[16:22] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: to build?
[16:22] <jengelh> kirkland:
[16:22] <MacSlow> goffice 0.6.3 is not yet publicly available
[16:22] <Hobbsee> oh, that's right, you have to do fun stuff with that.
[16:23]  * Hobbsee hasn't had the fun of building an unreleased kde for a while.
[16:24]  * MacSlow has a different idea of fun
[16:24] <MacSlow> :)
[16:24] <ogra> Hobbsee, you should try a mobile build :) they come from ports, -updates, -proposed and PPA to build whole systems
[16:24] <ogra> now thats the real fun
[16:24] <MacSlow> building Xorg if far more satisfying
[16:25] <Hobbsee> ogra: i'd probably just change the sources list, use --save-after-login, and then use the standard pbuilder build foo.dsc, at that point.
[16:26] <Hobbsee> for bonus points, by creating a mobile pbuilder, with the repositories set up
[16:26] <ogra> heh
[16:26] <Hobbsee> which is far simpler, in the long run, then fudging around inside pbuilder.
[16:27] <tedg> I haven't tried, but does a PPA include itself in the build environment?
[16:27] <Hobbsee> tedg: yes
[16:28] <tedg> Hmm, that means one should be careful when moving packages from a PPA to a distributed repository.
[16:28] <Hobbsee> correct.
[16:32] <MacSlow> I still get "dpkg-buildpackage: failure: debian/rules build gave error exit status 2"
[16:33] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: that's akin to saying "something died here."
[16:33] <MacSlow> from trying to "dpkg-buildpackage -j4 -rfakeroot" gnumeric
[16:33] <Hobbsee> MacSlow: -v
[16:33] <Hobbsee> (as in, look higher0
[16:33] <MacSlow> xgettext: error while opening "./POTFILES.in.temp" for reading: No such file or directory
[16:33] <MacSlow> ERROR: xgettext failed to generate PO template file. Please consult
[16:33] <MacSlow>        error message above if there is any.
[16:33] <MacSlow> make: *** [configure-stamp-gtk] Error 1
[16:33] <MacSlow> make: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
[16:33] <MacSlow> hm...
[16:34] <MacSlow> still missing something from my pbuilder-environemnt?
[16:34] <seb128> MacSlow: the build likely doesn't like the -j option
[16:34] <seb128> would be an upstream bug and not the first one to have the issue
[16:34] <seb128> try not using -j and see how it builds
[16:35] <MacSlow> seb128, so gnumeric doesn't like parallel compilation?
[16:35] <MacSlow> just started it without -j
[16:35] <seb128> that would be my bet, but just guessing I didn't look at the issue
[16:35] <MacSlow> compiling now
[16:35] <MacSlow> phew
[16:40] <MacSlow> /usr/bin/ld: /usr/lib/libgoffice-0.6.a(goffice.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
[16:40] <MacSlow> /usr/lib/libgoffice-0.6.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
[16:40] <MacSlow> not good
[17:05] <cjwatson> oww, localedef is hideously complicated inside
[17:05] <cjwatson> I think I might be close to doing something about its memory use though
[17:08] <ion_> Nice
[17:10] <cjwatson> it turns out that what it's doing is keeping a big table in memory of the byte representations of all the possible characters in the current character set
[17:11] <cjwatson> which, unfortunately, due to the locale definition file format, it pretty much has to do (well, it might be able to use an mmapped temporary file I suppose)
[17:11] <cjwatson> but it could represent contiguous ranges of characters with "contiguous" byte representations much more efficiently than it currently does, I think, at the cost of somewhat more painful code
[17:44] <bmhm> Hello. Please set Bug 244591 to urgent/critical.  It makes Pidgin useless and may make People go away from ubuntu.
[17:47] <bmhm> Hello, some dev around?
[17:52] <cjwatson> bmhm: IRC is an asynchronous medium; please be patient. (I've set the importance to Critical, but don't get overly fixated on importance please.)
[17:53] <bmhm> cjwatson: I know IRC, I am sorry for my inpatience. I just didn't want my message to get "lost"
[17:54]  * ogra sighs 
[17:54] <ogra> why is the whole of X depending on cpp
[17:56] <darkfile> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+bug/244591
[17:56] <cjwatson> darkfile: scroll up
[17:56] <cjwatson> darkfile: oh, it was just before you arrived - anyway, bmhm already mentioned that
[17:56] <darkfile> cjwatson, im not in here long enough :)
[17:57] <darkfile> do you know if this will be fixed for 7.10, too?
[17:57] <darkfile> or will i have to upgrade to 8.04?
[17:57] <cjwatson> for a start, I'm not a Pidgin developer, but, on the face of it, a reasonable fix for this kind of thing would be eligible for updates to all stable releases
[17:58] <cjwatson> obviously it needs somebody to do the work first, though
[17:58] <darkfile> ok thanks for the info
[18:13] <alex-weej> can i get any ubuntu package from bzr?
[18:14] <Laney> cjwatson: I'll have a go at the SRU once a fix is out if that's OK?
[18:14] <cjwatson> sure
[18:14] <cjwatson> alex-weej: not yet, though we're working on that
[18:15] <alex-weej> cjwatson: that would be absolutely rock
[18:15] <alex-weej> i really wish i could do all my development in Ubuntu rather than having to build everything an the kitchen sink in JHbuild then port changes to Ubuntu packages
[18:16] <cjwatson> alex-weej: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/distributed-development-importer
[18:16] <cjwatson> we'll be doing it in stages, so it won't be fully joined up at first
[18:17] <alex-weej> that's cool. only concern is that, in some cases, even the development packages we have are way behind upstream
[18:17] <cjwatson> right, we'll get further along eventually; baby steps :-)
[18:17] <cjwatson> ultimately we want to be able to update to new upstreams by 'bzr merge' or similar
[18:18] <ogra> alex-weej, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages
[18:18] <cjwatson> the spec ogra quotes is an older version of a similar idea
[18:18] <ogra> outdaed but essentially still the target
[18:18] <alex-weej> right. awesome. really glad people are working on it
[18:18]  * ogra updates his links
[18:18] <cjwatson> actually that's sort of a middle phase rather than the target
[18:19] <cjwatson> it's a possible benefit we might be able to pick up along the way
[18:41] <slangasek> cody-somerville: hi, why have you milestoned bug #220899?  this seems like something that should be reasonable to fix in an update after the point release, no?
[19:18] <Keybuk> that's weird
[19:18] <Keybuk> second time the computer has hung/crashed since the hardy kernel update
[20:32] <lool> cjwatson: Hey, mobile-meta made it to the archive and I proceeded according to plan; http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-mobile.txt seems to be empty, could you tell me where I can find what generates it to check whether it's still working?
[20:43] <ogra> lool, it has the generation date at the top usually the script is called anastacia (at least is once was, not sure if LP has taken over that part as well since i last looked) i'm not sure where its stored though
[20:57] <ikonia> gents has anyone got a solid understanding of how gnome/hal deals with automounting file systems
[20:58] <ikonia> I'm trying to troubleshoot an issue for an ubuntu-user in #ubuntu, and the feedback / information he's giving me suggests that gnome/hal now mounts the disks in userspace, I'm struggling to find informtion on this so if anyone has first hand knowledge on this it would be appriciated
[21:31] <Kopfgeldjaeger2> Will there be an SRU for the pidgin/icq issues?
[21:35] <Laney> Kopfgeldjaeger2: Yes!
[21:36] <laga> what about kopete? ;)
[21:36] <laga> ooh, there is a workaround for kopete
[22:01] <slangasek> cody-somerville: bug #228784 also awaits SRU verification for 8.04.1
[22:01] <apachelogger> laga: shouldn't be necessary
[22:01] <slangasek> cody-somerville: actually, I meant bug #232364; so both of them do, really :)
[22:02] <apachelogger> laga: kopete has an auto-update feature kicking in once the connecation failed
[22:02] <apachelogger> considering it works properly ;-)
[22:02] <slangasek> blah, an auto-update feature that hasn't been disabled in the packaging?
[22:02] <laga> apachelogger: yeah, i saw that.
[22:03] <laga> apachelogger: after i asked i here :)
[22:03] <slangasek> so anyone who uses kopete on Ubuntu systems is subject to updates that haven't been QAed through Ubuntu?
[22:03] <apachelogger> slangasek: yes
[22:03] <apachelogger> though
[22:03] <apachelogger> this update feature only effects icq
[22:03] <apachelogger> and actually only it's desktop file, defining the version stuff
[22:04] <apachelogger> slangasek: and I can say KDE also has pretty good QA ;-)
[22:04] <slangasek> yes, the point is that it's not been QAed in situ
[22:04] <slangasek> there's no guarantee that the builds have been tested to work with Kubuntu itself, as opposed to KDE generally
[22:04] <apachelogger> sladen: there is no build
[22:05] <apachelogger> slangasek: ^
[22:05] <apachelogger> sladen: sorry
[22:05] <apachelogger> slangasek: http://kopete.kde.org/oscarversions.xml
[22:05] <slangasek> ah
[22:06] <apachelogger> once the login failed it downloads that file and if necessary adapts the versions in the desktop files
[22:42] <asac> tjaalton: do all common intel chipsets get EXA by default?
[22:42] <asac> bryce: ^^
[22:42] <asac> (in hardy)
[22:43] <bryce> asac, correct
[22:44] <asac> bryce: how sure?
[22:44] <asac> (percentage) :)
[22:44] <bryce> 85%
[22:44] <asac> not much ;)
[22:44] <asac> not enough ... hmm
[22:45] <bryce> there may be some internal logic to fall back to XAA for some chips, I don't remember
[22:45] <asac> jcastro: what graphics chipset do you have?
[22:45] <ogra> (==) intel(0): Using EXA for acceleration
[22:45] <bryce> asac, what prompts the question exactly?
[22:45] <asac> jcastro: i remember that you saw the ffox rendering bug until you flipped to EXA on your intel
[22:45] <jcastro> I have an i965
[22:45] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel/liveusb-creator$ lspci|grep -i vga
[22:45] <ogra> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
[22:46] <asac> jcastro: so for you EXA was not enabled by default back in london?
[22:46] <jcastro> I don't remember
[22:46] <asac> jcastro: are you still on hardy?
[22:47] <jcastro> I think it was, because looking at my xorg.conf right now shows I enabled it and added that greedy thing to it
[22:47] <jcastro> nope, intrepid
[22:47] <asac> jcastro: ok. i guess that means that not all intel chips use(d) EXA :)
[22:47] <asac> bryce: SRU verification talk raised this question
[22:48] <jcastro> asac: you can of course do what you want to it during the next sprint.
[22:48] <jcastro> not that that helps you right this instant
[22:49] <asac> jcastro: no. that would be too late ;) ... can you restart X with the EXA line removed and see if you still use EXA?
[22:49] <jcastro> sure.
[22:49] <asac> (in Xorg.0.log)
[22:49] <bryce> you shouldn't need the greedy line either
[22:49] <asac> what is greedy?
[22:49] <bryce> if you had that in there it makes me think you'd configured those back before we switched to EXA by default
[22:49] <asac> bryce: when was that?
[22:50] <jcastro> bryce: I think so as well
[22:50] <bryce> it's a memory migration heuristic, that is a workaround to a bug that was preventing us from switching to EXA by default
[22:50] <jcastro> Option "ExaNoComposite" "true"
[22:50] <jcastro> do I need that?
[22:50] <asac> bryce: ok. so when did you flip the switch?
[22:51] <asac> jcastro: i guess the idea is that you shouldnt need any option ;)
[22:51] <jcastro> heh
[22:51] <bryce> jcastro, that's for preventing compiz from going, and I would imagine you'd only need that if you had a severe problem with compiz for some reason
[22:52] <bryce> jcastro: so in theory you shouldn't need that, unless your HW has some weird bug
[22:52] <asac> heh
[22:52] <ogra> jcastro, the idea is that you shouldnt need an xorg.conf ...
[22:53] <ogra> especially as US american with the right default keymapping
[22:55] <bryce> asac the switch was made around the end of march
[22:56] <jcastro> asac: ok, it's all using EXA according to the log
[22:56] <jcastro> ogra: I thought we weren't quite there yet for going xorg.conf-less
[22:56] <jcastro> though I can try that next if you guys want
[22:56] <asac> jcastro: ok thanks
[22:56] <ogra> we need it for keymap and mouse settings
[22:56] <jcastro> does it default to US or something?
[22:57] <ogra> but with en_US you shuldnt need the keymap part and with a default laptop touchpad the mouse settings shouldnt be needed either
[22:57] <jcastro> actually, I won't try it, I'm in mid-move and this is my only working PC at the moment
[22:57] <ogra> just move it to xorg.conf.bak and try ;)
[22:57] <ogra> ah, indeed
[22:58] <ogra> well, it works since gutsy
[22:58] <jcastro> find another victim, I'm actually on vacation and need to finish packing. :D
[22:58] <bryce> jcastro, it will default to US
[23:06] <slangasek> Ubuntu 8.10 will ship with a GPS dongle to auto-detect your keyboard preference based on latitude and longitude
[23:06] <ScottK> But only if you're outside where the sattelites can see you.
[23:07] <LaserJock> slangasek: but what if I'm an American in Europe and want the US keyboard? :-)
[23:07] <LaserJock> me wonders what keyboard would be set in Antarctica
[23:07] <ogra> slangasek, can we get these dongles as totrrents please to not make the shipment costs explode ?
[23:07] <slangasek> LaserJock: when in Rome, swear at your keyboard like the Romans
[23:08] <LaserJock> slangasek: lol
[23:08] <slangasek> ogra:
[23:08] <slangasek> ogra: I'll see what I can do
[23:08] <ogra> \o/
[23:12] <Chipzz> slangasek: wrt Kopete QA... I have had the same reservations about firefox
[23:13] <slangasek> Chipzz: is firefox auto-updating itself in Ubuntu...?
[23:13] <Chipzz> slangasek: shouldn't ubuntu patch firefox to not have the auto-update feature at all?
[23:13] <slangasek> haven't we?
[23:13] <Chipzz> slangasek: it isn't, but there's an option for it which can be turned on
[23:13] <Chipzz> hrrrm I though it wasn't... maybe need to check
[23:14] <slangasek> oh; well, if users want to shoot themselves in the foot like that, I don't see the problem
[23:14] <slangasek> removing the feature entirely is just more likely to cause unnecessary friction with upstream
[23:14] <Chipzz> fucking up the packaging system is not something we should allow IMHO
[23:14] <Chipzz> heh
[23:15] <Chipzz> mozilla needs to get their heads unstuck from their asses
[23:15] <slangasek> it doesn't touch the system binaries
[23:15] <slangasek> unless you run it as root :)
[23:15] <LaserJock> well, I happen to like having Firefox updates for most things
[23:16] <LaserJock> but I understand the thought behind turning the auto-update off
[23:16] <Chipzz> slangasek: if it only works as root, there's no point in having it anyway
[23:16] <LaserJock> I'm more concerned with all the extentions
[23:16] <slangasek> Chipzz: I didn't say it only works as root, I said it will only update over the *system* binaries as root
[23:16] <slangasek> if you run it as a user, I expect it does something horrible like downloading and installing all of firefox into your .mozilla directory ;)
[23:17] <Chipzz> either way you get a broken system
[23:17] <Chipzz> LaserJock: yeah, but exactly how many extensions does ubuntu package?
[23:17] <slangasek> maybe, but users have to opt in to that brokenness
[23:17] <LaserJock> Chipzz: 10+ I think
[23:17] <Chipzz> LaserJock: out of... ? several hundreds?
[23:18] <ogra> Chipzz, do i hear you volunteering ?
[23:18] <LaserJock> umm yeah, that's the problem
[23:18] <ScottK> The one package I maintain in Debian/Ubuntu that ships from upstream with auto update capability is missing it entirely in Debian/Ubuntu.  I think it's generally a bad idea for distros.
[23:19] <LaserJock> if some of your extensions come from Ubuntu but others through the "normal" means it confusing
[23:19] <Chipzz> ogra: I'm merely pointing out that while updating extensions via our packaging system would be ideal, it's not feasible in practice
[23:19] <LaserJock> I just use Firefox's method, I don't trust our extensions really
[23:19] <ScottK> Of course the fact that it uses checkinstall to generate it's updated packages might have influenced my thinking.
[23:19] <ScottK> (my package, not FF).
[23:19] <Chipzz> also, won't installing an extension via the packaging system install it for all users?
[23:20] <LaserJock> presumably
[23:20] <ogra> likely
[23:20] <Chipzz> which is not something you want anyway
[23:20] <Chipzz> more mozilla suckage
[23:20] <LaserJock> right
[23:20]  * Chipzz repeats above statement about mozilla, heads, and asses :P
[23:20] <LaserJock> so I'd rather let Firefox handle it
[23:21] <Chipzz> problem is
[23:21] <Chipzz> in a lot of ways firefox is mainly a windows app
[23:21] <Chipzz> windows lacks proper package management
[23:21] <Chipzz> mozilla devs work around that by features such as auto-update
[23:21] <Chipzz> with no regard for linux
[23:22] <LaserJock> well, I doubt they'd do it much differently if it was more linux-centric
[23:24] <Chipzz> macosx has the same problem
[23:24] <slangasek> kees: where does atlas's debian/rules weigh in, at 1145 lines?
[23:24] <asac> Chipzz: whats you issue here?
[23:25] <Chipzz> asac: mozilla wanting to be something that's already provided by proper linux distro's (ie: proper package management)
[23:26] <Chipzz> and the possible havoc ensuing from users updating firefox through it
[23:26] <asac> Chipzz: we dont allow that
[23:26] <asac> only extensions are auto updated
[23:26] <Chipzz> asac: that's actually patched out?
[23:26] <asac> (if installed in profile)
[23:27] <asac> Chipzz: 1st. its disabled by upstream if you dont run as root (e.g. if not having write permissions)
[23:27] <asac> 2nd. its patched out by us (explicit upstream request) to prevent root from auto updating app
[23:27] <Chipzz> ah k
[23:27] <Chipzz> how long has that been patched out?
[23:27] <Chipzz> I seem to recall seeing that checkbox, but that may have been in an old version
[23:28] <asac> Chipzz: it was there in b5 (if you start ffox as root)
[23:28] <Chipzz> my laptop is still at feisty I think, so would have been ff2
[23:29] <asac> Chipzz: in ff2 it was always disabled
[23:29] <asac> unless you flipped it on by editing system config filed in editor
[23:29] <Chipzz> hrrrm
[23:30] <Chipzz> didn't do that
[23:30] <Chipzz> where did I get that idea then?
[23:30] <asac> Chipzz: most likely you confused the app-auto-update feature with the extension-auto-update thing
[23:31]  * Chipzz boots laptop
[23:31] <asac> Chipzz: but to be fair, i cannot speak for the initial edgy release. just since feisty.
[23:33] <Chipzz> asac: just checked
[23:33] <norsetto> asac: 0.6.3 will be out today, where should I upload the gnome-mplayer/gecko-mediaplayer packages which I would like you to review for debian?
[23:33] <Chipzz> asac: the checkbox exists but is grayed out
[23:34] <Chipzz> version 2.0.0.10+2binonly-0ubuntu1.7.10.1
[23:34] <asac> Chipzz: yeah
[23:34] <asac> its deactivated
[23:34] <Chipzz> asac: with you as packager ;)
[23:35] <Chipzz> shouldn't we just not show that checkbox at all instead of greying it out?
[23:37] <asac> Chipzz: i dont know ;). i doubt that it creates lots of confusion for the normal user ;)
[23:38] <Chipzz> asac: btw, what's your opinion on packaging extensions?
[23:40] <asac> Chipzz: i addressed that quite extensively in the beginning of the last FF extension packaging session i gave during openweek
[23:40] <asac> Chipzz: the logs are https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/ExtensionsPackaging
[23:43] <kees> slangasek: hehe, I'm not sure.  I suppose I could generate some kind of stat.  :)
[23:44] <Chipzz> asac: reading that page... but won't installing extensions as packages enable them for all users?
[23:46] <asac> Chipzz: thats one deficiency, yes.
[23:46] <asac> at some point we should do something about that
[23:46] <ogra> depends on the extension ...
[23:46] <ogra> parental control is surely something that makes sense to have installed systmwide
[23:47] <Chipzz> asac: hence why I asked about your opinion on packaging extensions ;)
[23:47] <Chipzz> ogra: but for example flash-blocker isn't
[23:47] <ogra> and i bet there are others where its sane to have them not per users
[23:47] <ogra> right
[23:47] <Chipzz> especially on large sites
[23:47] <asac> Chipzz: my opinion should be clear from the logs ;)
[23:47] <ogra> is likely only a minority
[23:47] <slangasek> Daviey, superm1: images aren't finalized just yet, but I wanted to check with you guys whether you'll have some spare cycles for testing 8.04.1 alternate ISOs for mythbuntu
[23:47] <asac> Chipzz: i wont teach people how to package if I'd think its a bad idea ;)
[23:48] <Chipzz> asac: I'm not saying it's a bad idea :)
[23:48] <asac> Chipzz: so you dont ask about opinion, but vision?
[23:48] <Chipzz> but like you said, having them enabled for all users is a deficiency
[23:49] <asac> Chipzz: yes, its a lack of flexibility
[23:49] <Chipzz> what I was most curious about was your opinion on the enabling-for-all issue
[23:51] <asac> Chipzz: its not really a blocker. users usually can disable their extensions
[23:51] <asac> even if installed globally
[23:51] <Chipzz> asac: maybe the extensions should be disabled by default then?
[23:52] <asac> Chipzz: why?
[23:52] <Chipzz> asac: prevent unwanted side-effects on large sites?
[23:52] <Chipzz> asac: consider the case of a university using ubuntu, with the flash-blocker extension packaged
[23:52] <asac> Chipzz: as i said above. the only deficiency i see for the enable-ing-for-all approach is a lack of flexibility
[23:53] <Chipzz> I'm pretty sure that would cause a whole lot of confusion for a whole lot of users
[23:53] <Chipzz> "Why doesn't flash work?"
[23:53] <asac> Chipzz: yeah. if the admin thinks its a good idea to install flash blocker for all, its his decision
[23:53] <Chipzz> asac: my pov is the "making available" pov :)
[23:54] <asac> Chipzz: thats not the current use-case covered
[23:54] <Chipzz> admin installs a huge load of extensions using the packaging system, all disabled by default
[23:54] <Chipzz> user wants to use an extension, just clicks on enable
[23:55] <asac> Chipzz: yes, that might be a valid use-case, but still a corner case
[23:55] <Chipzz> asac: well what it boils down to I think is there are 2 use-cases
[23:55] <asac> most users want to install the extension and use it
[23:55] <Chipzz> 1) single user install
[23:55] <Chipzz> 2) large site deployment
[23:55] <asac> 1a) home install (a few family users)
[23:55] <ogra> 1.5) LTSP server  :)
[23:55] <asac> for 1* its ok
[23:55] <asac> for 2 it could be better, but that is something the admin has to take care of
[23:55] <asac> for now
[23:56] <Chipzz> ogra: LTSP is exactly what I had in mind with 2)
[23:56] <Chipzz> ;)
[23:56] <ogra> well, thats rarely large as in enterprise :)
[23:56]  * cody-somerville notes that whoever highlighted him earlier today needs to do so again: freenode netsplits pushed it out of buffer
[23:56] <asac> Chipzz: what you want is an integrated installer
[23:57] <asac> Chipzz: the right way is to make the globally available extensions accessible for users in the firefox addons "install extension" tab
[23:57] <Chipzz> ogra, what are your thoughts on this? :)
[23:57] <asac> Chipzz: there is no real point of discussing this ;)
[23:57] <Chipzz> asac: what will that do? copy the extenion to ~/.mozilla ?
[23:57] <asac> disabling extensions you installed by default will not happen
[23:58] <asac> better integration of extension install wizard: yes, but needs cycles
[23:58] <asac> Chipzz: that is undecided and needs to be specified in a specification unless someone just does it
[23:58] <ogra> Chipzz, as i said before i see it valid to have extensions systemwide on a pre extension base, for some it makes sense for some it doesnt
[23:58] <ogra> *per
[23:59] <emgent> night.
[23:59] <ogra> things like adblock or any parental control extensions surely make sense in that context
[23:59] <Chipzz> that's what I was thinking
[23:59] <Chipzz> but take flash-block as an example
[23:59] <ogra> or even flashblock since the user is always able to installflash in ~
[23:59] <Chipzz> how would you handle that on an LTSP install?
[23:59] <ogra> heh
[23:59] <asac> Chipzz: for now we need to fix the addons dialog to support multiple search/install methods.