[00:37] <wrtpeeps> bah. Channel topic rules out my question :D
[05:42] <dholbach> good morning
[06:34] <jstansel> good morning
[16:02] <leetcharmer> hello everyone :)
[16:02] <robilad> hi leetcharmer, welcome!
[16:03] <leetcharmer> how are you doing?
[16:03] <robilad> fine, though it's a bit hot over here in hamburg
[16:03] <robilad> how about you?
[16:04] <leetcharmer> heh, I'm in Texas
[16:04] <leetcharmer> it's CRAZY hot
[16:04] <leetcharmer> all the time
[16:05] <robilad> haha
[16:05] <leetcharmer> at the meeting, are we going to discuss openJDK?
[16:06] <cody-somerville> \o_
[16:06] <leetcharmer> I thought the meeting started now, so I dunno if I can make it in an hour, but I would like to kind of hang out with the Java team
[16:06] <leetcharmer> I'm a new Java developer (I've taken a semester of it in college) and so I'd like to know how it will grow in Ubuntu in the years to come
[16:07] <robilad> yeah, I wanted to chat a bit about what it would take to get openjdk into main, and hopefully have doko point out what the roadmap for that should be
[16:08] <leetcharmer> is that already a reality in Hardy? Or is that a Intrepid thing?
[16:08] <robilad> interpid
[16:09] <robilad> persia wants to discuss general goals for intrepid, I'd like to look into a few specific things
[16:10] <robilad> and so on - agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting , if there is something you want to contribute to, please add yourself to it.
[16:11] <leetcharmer> well, since it begins in an hour, rather than now -- I might not be able to really contribute, but I'll have a look :D
[16:12] <robilad> thanks!
[16:12] <robilad> and feel free to discuss things you care about here, too ;)
[16:14] <leetcharmer> cool -- well first off, I have some questions about OpenJDK
[16:14] <leetcharmer> like ... is it the regular JDK .. but GPL'd? or are there significant differences in how I need to program with the JDK
[16:15] <leetcharmer> like ... is there no longer: System.out.println();
[16:15] <robilad> it's the regular JDK under the GPL.
[16:15] <leetcharmer> okay, so does that mean they will begin to phase out the, I guess -- commercialized JDK?
[16:15] <yuriy> well, the next version of the regular JDK under GPL, so there'll be a few things added and nothing removed
[16:16] <robilad> leetcharmer: no phasing out - it's an additional option for us free software people - for those that don't care about the freedoms, the regular proprietary download will remain.
[16:17] <robilad> the developer community around openjdk is a bit different from the average windows applet game user, basically.
[16:18] <robilad> and the latter users would likely find it quite scary to see the commercialized JDK phased out for a GPLd one.
[16:19] <mslama> openjdk is in hardy already
[16:19] <robilad> yep
[16:19] <lenards> they make some residual coin off applications written w/ the commercialized JDK
[16:19] <robilad> in universe, atm.
[16:19] <lenards> so I don't think they'd want to phase it out from a business sense
[16:19]  * robilad waves at mslama, great to see you again, marek!
[16:21] <leetcharmer> but shouldn't the gpl one have the same power as the commercialized one?
[16:21] <leetcharmer> and the same code will compile in either version?
[16:21] <lenards> good question
[16:21] <leetcharmer> I don't understand the point in keeping both available if they both are basically the same
[16:21] <rivasdiaz_> they are not the same yet
[16:22] <rivasdiaz_> the propietary one has some providers that the open one does not have
[16:22] <rivasdiaz_> the (in)famous 5%
[16:23] <persia> They will likely converge, but one will come with a fancy installer, and corporate backing (and maybe some patented bits)
[16:23] <lenards> rivasdiaz_: also, aren't they going to allow opensource devs to maintain/modify the framework classes?
[16:23] <leetcharmer> is it a necessary 5%?
[16:23] <lenards> I'd love it if they'd get rid of some of the things like all the CORBA support...
[16:23] <leetcharmer> I dunno what CORBA is
[16:23] <lenards> I mean - there would be some advantage to having it be a subset
[16:24] <rivasdiaz_> well, most software will not notice the difference, but some will. I can run all my code with openjdk
[16:24] <lenards> CORBA is the component object request broker architecture (think that's the acro) ... it was an architecture that wasn't fallen out of favor with many (most)
[16:24] <slytherin> lenards: that can be handled in packages right?
[16:24] <rivasdiaz_> but for example SNMP code is not available in openjdk
[16:24] <robilad> leetcharmer: the 5% have been replaced for openjdk6/7 with free software code, and that will be the code going forward for openjdk - but some companies building their own JDKs may prefer the old code, as they had a lot more exprience with it, for example with the font rasterizer sun had to rewrite for openjdk.
[16:25] <leetcharmer> that's interesting
[16:25] <rivasdiaz_> lenards: well, openjdk is GPL, so nobody have to ask sun...
[16:25] <lenards> slytherin: I have no clue... maybe... I'm a n00b to this sort of team/activity like this
[16:25] <leetcharmer> so -- does Java not support font vectorizing then?
[16:25] <lenards> rivasdiaz_: ya - exactly, that's what I mean
[16:26] <slytherin> lenards: By the way, GPL essentially means that any distribution can decide which pieces to compile and package.
[16:26] <leetcharmer> that could be good :) less size to take up when it comes prepackaged :)
[16:26] <persia> Well, there's a strong argument for consistency, as app authors would prefer a stable target
[16:27] <robilad> lenards: at JavaOne this year, in the talk about Java7 features, there was a discussion of having different profiles - desktop/enterprise/headless - and using the upcoming module support to modularize the JDK itself.
[16:27] <lenards> robilad: I heard that, I thought it was quite interesting
[16:28] <robilad> it is ;)
[16:28] <leetcharmer> yea, I think having different stacks will be a good idea
[16:28] <leetcharmer> I think in Intrepid, they will have a tomcat stack :)
[16:28] <rivasdiaz_> lenards: ubuntu can include patches that sun don't... now what extra patches ubuntu includes, or if they are going to use the TCK is what we need to know to trust them
[16:28] <robilad> the talks are online now, including the PDFs
[16:28] <robilad> and recordings
[16:28] <leetcharmer> that will include everything you need to make webapps
[16:28] <leetcharmer> :D
[16:28] <lenards> slytherin: ya - that's sort of my point in bringing up of the removal of CORBA stuff - I'm not a wonk on licenses, but I figure there is plenty of leeway given the GPL
[16:29] <robilad> http://developers.sun.com/learning/javaoneonline/j1sessn.jsp?sessn=TS-6271&yr=2008&track=javase
[16:29] <slytherin> leetcharmer: tomcat has been in Ubuntu for long time.
[16:29] <leetcharmer> slytherin, that is true, but you still have to install the JDK separately and then export the JAVA_HOME variables
[16:29] <leetcharmer> and stuff
[16:29] <robilad> basically, the problem with removing things in a not-well-defined way, as persia says, is that it means other people's code won't work.
[16:30] <slytherin> leetcharmer: so?
[16:30] <leetcharmer> slytherin, it's a lot of un-fun config stuff for a person who just wants to begin programming
[16:30] <robilad> so you need to agree on profiles between different JDK7 implementations, so that an application asking for an enterprise profile can rely on, say, CORBA.
[16:30] <slytherin> leetcharmer: I hardly think a person who just wants to begin programming will need tomcat.
[16:31] <leetcharmer> Google's IO conference this year addresses a similar problem with developers.  They introduced the Google App Engine for people who didn't want to go through the hassle of configuring your own LAMP stack.  Just program, deploy, and go :)
[16:31] <leetcharmer> and I think Ubuntu should offer similar ease :)
[16:31] <leetcharmer> let developers be developers, and admins be admins :D
[16:31] <lenards> slytherin: I agree... and if they want to dabble and play, they're likely looking at groovy or python or something
[16:32] <leetcharmer> slytherin: you may be true, but for someone who wants to begin building, say -- Alfresco plugins, they will need to configure tomcat
[16:32] <leetcharmer> and the Alfresco plugins will be from Java code
[16:33] <slytherin> leetcharmer: I can understand configuring tomcat part but I don't see why it is so hard. You just need to set a environment variable.
[16:33] <leetcharmer> I just think it should be a little more streamlined is all.
[16:34] <lenards> the meeting start in 27 minutes - right?
[16:34] <leetcharmer> I mean, that's why Ubuntu made a lamp stack in their server fork, right?
[16:34] <leetcharmer> to streamline the process
[16:34] <leetcharmer> and get to what matters most?
[16:35] <lenards> or have we started?
[16:35] <leetcharmer> lenards, haven't started yet
[16:35] <lenards> it's not 16:00 UTC yet eh?
[16:35] <persia> leetcharmer: It's an iterative process.  If you're passionate about integration, please help review the current state, and see what can be done to create more integration.
[16:35] <lenards> leetcharmer: thanks
[16:35] <persia> lenards: It's 15:35UTC, and the meeting is in #ubuntu-meeting
[16:35] <lenards> afk for 20 min
[16:35] <lenards> persia: sweet - thanks
[16:36] <leetcharmer> persia: where would I begin?
[16:37] <persia> leetcharmer: Investigate the packages that you seek to have integrated.  Determine what changes might help them to be more integrated.  Propose patches to achieve these changes.
[16:38] <leetcharmer> persia: sounds complicated .. I've never messed with packages before
[16:39] <persia> leetcharmer: It is complicated, which is why it's not done yet :)  There's lots of docs online; both the Ubuntu and Debian wikis are good places to start.
[16:40] <leetcharmer> wow ... might be over my head at the moment :D but I'll add it to the todo list after ya know ... learning Java :D
[16:41] <leetcharmer> and participating with the Ubuntu Java group :D
[16:42] <thielmann> What I would need is some advise from people already building packages from java based software. Especially some "best practise" on how to integrate maven/ant based build-scripts, patches and some examples for packaged libraries. I still don't know if libraries are packaged as jar-files or compiled with GCJ.
[16:43] <thielmann> I found some informations from the debian project a while ago. But I'm not sure if this still matters with OpenJDK.
[16:44] <persia> thielmann: That's a good idea.  I'll see if MOTU School would be willing to have a class on Java packaging.
[16:45] <thielmann> persia: Thanks!
[16:46] <leetcharmer> persia: that would be VERY good!
[16:51] <persia> thielmann: leetcharmer: Sessions requested (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Requests).
[17:00] <dholbach> Ubuntu Java team meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now
[17:00] <dholbach> doko, robilad, slytherin, persia: ^
[17:00] <robilad> thanks, dholbach, please kick off the proceedings
[17:02] <lenards> persia: voted for both requests
[17:04] <doko> why not here? ...
[17:05] <leetcharmer> ???
[17:06] <persia> doko: Reduces schedule conflicts.
[17:14] <slytherin> leetcharmer: hmm. /join #ubuntu-meeting
[17:15] <leetcharmer> slytherin: I'm already in there :D
[17:15] <slytherin> leetcharmer: Sorry, that was not really for you
[17:16] <leetcharmer> slytherin: fair 'nuff :)
[18:31] <lenards> I have some questions about that want to help and participate - but haven't done anything like this before (packaging etc)... as chandru_in said #ubuntu-meeting, I'm a java developer - not a debian packager
[18:32] <lenards> I'm rather excited about the MOTU session that was requested earlier as something that might get me up to speed... but I'm feeling like a complete noob after being in the meeting
[18:32]  * slytherin has to leave. Will join in half hour.
[18:34] <persia> lenards: I'll recommend looking at either bugs in Java packages or multiverse->universe issues as a way to get familiar.
[18:34] <persia> While classes can help build expertise, working with several packages and getting a feel for them can also be helpful.
[18:35] <lenards> okay
[18:35] <persia> Also, if you have general packaging questions, and nobody has an answer here, you can also ask on #ubuntu-motu, although not everyone there knows either Java or Java packaging.
[18:36] <lenards> I'm part of the us-az loco - and some of the guys give me reading links for getting some background on packaging
[18:36] <lenards> I guess I can looking at bugs and such - but I don't fully grasp what issues would be derived from the multiverse->universe that you're talking about
[18:38] <persia> lenards: Generally multiverse contains packages that are not completely free, have a dependency on something not completely free, or have a build-dependency on something not completely free.
[18:39] <persia> Packages in multiverse cannot be considered for inclusion on CDs for this reason (although technically some of the contents might be OK to put on CDs, but it's easier to have one rule).
[18:39] <lenards> okay - so they're licensing issues forces them to not be included
[18:39] <robilad> (or are really hard to build from source without good maven2 support)
[18:40] <lenards> so what's an example of a multiverse->universe issue?
[18:40] <lenards> just to get an idea ...
[18:40] <persia> To get packages from multiverse to universe, one has to investigate the license for the package to make sure it is actually free, then investigate the dependencies (maybe adjusting them and testing to make sure there is no impact), and then checking build-dependencies to ensure it can build with only packages in universe.
[18:40] <persia> Many packages don't build cleanly without a non-free Java right now, which is part of the problem.
[18:41] <persia> Others don't build sanely at all, or require strange things to build.
[18:41] <persia> During an investigation of these issues, one is bound to learn a fair bit about the structure of the packaging, the interrelationships between packages, and basic package workflows.
[18:42] <lenards> ya - the first thing I do when I install is rip out gcj because it's troublesome
[18:42] <persia> batik is an example package that is stuck in multiverse.  Slytherin has been chasing that one for the past 6 months or so, you might ask for details in about half an hour.
[18:43] <lenards> persia: true - but it seems like you'd need a particular knowledge/tool set to do that investigation to begin with
[18:43] <persia> gcj is troublesome, but it's free.  We can hope that we get more free compilers as time passes, and can get more things into universe.
[18:43] <lenards> but being in the multiverse makes it's available - that's what I don't get...
[18:43] <lenards> so you can install it
[18:44] <persia> lenards: The key licensing knowledge is http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines, and the primary tools are a text editor and a build environment.
[18:44] <persia> You can install it, but you may not be able to use it for some things, or it may be difficult to support.
[18:45] <persia> For everything in universe, we have the source, know we can build from source, know we have permission to change the source, and know that we can distribute it to anyone to use for any purpose.
[18:46] <lenards> so you're saying that if you're writing an application with these packages as dependencies, you are dooming your application to a small usage-base because of the dependency choices you've made (because you'll be banished to the multiverse and can't be included in the universe)?
[18:46] <lenards> okay... to maintenance is a key issue - cool, I get it a little better know
[18:46] <persia> lenards: No, I'm saying we've some work to do to improve our free compilers and libraries (OpenJDK is huge chunks of this) to get the multiverse libraries into universe and make Java more attractive for distro development.
[18:47] <lenards> I work w/ tapestry 4.* and BeanForm's life has been extended by being included with the Tacos components
[18:48] <lenards> okay - so what's holding packages in the multiverse is the licenses with which the source is released?
[18:49] <lenards> or the ability to build the source with free compilers and free versions of various dependencies?
[18:51] <persia> Mostly the latter, although there are a couple packages with problematic licenses that compound it.
[18:51] <persia> The transition mostly consists of porting and testing.
[18:51] <persia> We repeat it enough times, eventually things work, or we determine why they don't, chase down that chain, and find a solution.
[18:52] <lenards> so getting a robust, stable toolset (openjdk) is the best thing could ever have happened?
[18:52] <lenards> I just started teaching myself maven2 yesterday to prep for this
[18:52] <persia> It changes the landscape considerably.  gcj-classpath is good, but often not enough.
[18:53] <lenards> I've done a good chunk of lifecycle, build process stuff for a .net shop I worked for...still consult for them
[18:53] <lenards> so the topics aren't too alien - just the tools are familiar to me ... other than ant is a superset of msbuild
[18:53] <thx1138> (interesting conversation, I was quietly listening ... but I have to go)
[18:54] <thx1138> see you
[18:54] <lenards> thx1138: see you
[18:56] <lenards> hmm - I think I understand a bit more persia
[18:57] <lenards> I was just a litle lost in the meeting
[18:57] <lenards> like the comments about swing and qt vs gtk peers
[18:57] <persia> lenards: Understandable.  We had a short time, and lots of topics to cover.
[18:57] <lenards> I haven't code swing in a long time - but my understanding is that swing does not have a peer-based relationship to the underlying widgets provided by the window manager
[18:58] <lenards> ya - I mean, I'd love to help - I'm here, willing to work - but I'm totally a greenhorn p.i.t.a. that's just lost at the moment
[18:58] <persia> swing is the standard Java UI component, and the peers are alternate widget implemenations to use widgets from the selected widget set rather than the swing native widgets.
[18:59] <lenards> okay - so when the specify look-n-feel of qt for kde is used, it's all ghetto and crappy looking
[18:59] <persia> The more hands the better.  idle here, and ask questions.  Review bugs that either you find, or others report to LP.  when you've some free time, take a look at what's left in multiverse.  You'll learn :)
[18:59] <lenards> when you say 'review bugs' - that's the bugs lists on launchpad.net, right?
[19:00] <persia> Without peers, the visual experience is not well integrated.  With appropriate peers, it looks identical to something designed for that environment.
[19:00] <lenards> is there was way to filter out just the java ones and such
[19:00] <lenards> ya - w/o peers it's the metal l&f
[19:00] <persia> No filter for Java, but if you pick a library or application you know that is written in Java, it's sure to be a Java bug.
[19:00] <lenards> but that's still viewed as offense?  I've been working on the server-side the last 7 years or so
[19:00] <lenards> eer s/offense/offensive/
[19:01] <persia> offensive?  I don't understand.
[19:02] <lenards> well - people don't like the look-n-feel
[19:02] <lenards> they prefer an integrated look to their window-mgr
[19:02] <lenards> is what I mean
[19:03] <lenards> I was never really bothered by the metal look-n-feel
[19:03] <persia> lenards: If you don't mind metal, pick something else.  Best to find some area that interests you, and focus there.
[19:03] <lenards> okay
[19:04] <lenards> you've resolved my questions re the desktop/look-n-feel
[19:04] <lenards> from above... the place to review bugs is the launchpad bugs on the ubuntu project, correct?
[19:08] <robilad> persia: man-di suggested 14 utc
[19:10] <persia> robilad: Works for me.  Do you want to send an announcement to the team & update the wiki?
[19:10] <robilad> do we have a list for the team/announcements?
[19:10] <persia> I think so: let me check.
[19:11] <robilad> thanks
[19:11] <lenards> from above... the place to review bugs is the launchpad bugs on the ubuntu project, correct? or is there another bug repository to look at?
[19:11] <robilad> infra was a topic i forgot to add
[19:11] <persia> I guess that didn't come with the TeamPack dholbach set up.  As long as we don't have too much traffic, we can probably use ubuntu-devel@ for now.
[19:11] <lenards> sorry to intterupt
[19:11] <robilad> ok
[19:12] <persia> lenards: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs or https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/$(packagename)/+bugs
[19:12] <slytherin> do we really need any mailing list? Isn't this channel sufficient?
[19:13] <lenards> wasn't sure if it was https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-java either
[19:13] <persia> slytherin: Well, nice to tell people when we're having meetings and the like, as some people might be away for 30 minutes :)
[19:13] <slytherin> for that ubuntu-devel is fine I guess.
[19:13] <dherron> especially those who don't use IRC so frequently
[19:13] <dherron> and aren't on ubuntu-devel
[19:13] <persia> lenards: That's bugs to which the team is subscribed.  While it likely lists interesting bugs, it won't ever be all of them.
[19:14] <persia> dherron: Do you think we should request a separate mailing list then?
[19:14] <slytherin> By the way, is java team subscribed to any bugs by default?
[19:14] <dherron> I think so.. I'm also curious, I found four teams on launchpad about Java and which of them are we using?
[19:15] <persia> I think we should use ubuntu-java, as it has a good name.  I'll investigate the remainders, and see if I can't organise a merge.
[19:15] <persia> For now, I'm not sure we need the LP group for anything other than reservation of namespace.
[19:16] <dherron> I found: ubuntu-java, motujava, myjavateam and openjdk
[19:17] <dherron> 'myjavateam' should probably be excised and motujava+ubuntu-java is a good merger candidate (I think)
[19:17] <slytherin> dherron: openjdk is for those who hack on jdk. motujava is I guess redundant.
[19:18]  * robilad agrees with dherron
[19:18] <dherron> slytherin, yeah +1
[19:19] <slytherin> hey, ubuntu-java already has mailing list on launchpad.
[19:19] <persia> I don't think we can eliminate myjavateam, but I'll chat with the owner of motujava and see about a merge.
[19:20] <persia> We do?  I heard that Ubuntu teams were supposed to use @lists.ubuntu.com mailing lists.
[19:20] <robilad> thanks, persia
[19:20] <slytherin> persia: oh then leave it for now.
[19:21] <persia> slytherin: We'll have to poke doko about it sometime: he's the team admin.
[21:06]  * slytherin dances with joy. batik 1.7 built. :-D
[22:40] <jstansel> cool - I've never seen so many people here before!
[23:09] <jstansel> I've been helping people in the ubuntu forums, and the #1 java problem reported there is with the applet
[23:10] <jstansel> most of them are happy when we help them switch to sun-java6-plugin
[23:11] <jstansel> I assume the main issue is the javascript bridge, but some have needed signed applets
[23:12] <jstansel> many we don't find out their exact problem because they just want their browser to work and they get it by switching to sun-java6