[00:00] <slangasek> ogra: um, not worth the shipping... :)
[00:00] <liw> gracias and good night
[00:00] <slangasek> thanks, all
[00:00] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[00:00] <TheMuso> thanks
[00:00] <ogra> heh, probably, but it woul sit next to an indigo2 in my little muzeum
[00:00] <evand> thanks
[00:00] <ogra> thanks
[00:02] <calc> goodnight
[00:03] <james_w> night all
[13:54]  * mvo looks around
[13:57] <pitti> hi
[13:57] <seb128> hey pitti
[13:58]  * tedg says morning everyone
[13:58] <tedg> We should have the entire meeting in the third person :)
[13:58] <mvo> hey pitti, seb128, tedg
[13:58] <pedro_> hi hi
[13:59] <MacSlow> greetings
[13:59] <MacSlow> yo pitti, seb128, tedg, mvo, pedro_
[14:00] <mvo> hey MacSlow!
[14:02] <Keybuk> riiight
[14:02] <Keybuk> tedg: activity report? :)
[14:03] <tedg> Keybuk: Yes, sorry.  I upgraded to Intrepid... so I was fighting X until late. :(  I'm doing it right now.
[14:03] <tedg> Keybuk: I would like to add "IM Future" to the agenda.
[14:03] <Keybuk> :-)
[14:03] <Keybuk> ok
[14:03] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-07-03
[14:03] <Keybuk> ^ agenda with everything but tedg ;)
[14:04] <Keybuk> MacSlow: you had an action to update clutter, and an agenda item saying you weren't able to do it?
[14:04] <Keybuk> are they in the sponsor queue now?
[14:04] <MacSlow> Keybuk, no I still have to work on that :/
[14:05] <Keybuk> ok, you should obviously confirm that with Mark
[14:05] <Keybuk> if you don't need it, Neil can always do it ;)
[14:05] <Keybuk> seele: did you get any further with Jono?
[14:05] <MacSlow> Keybuk, but considering I've to present something regarding the login-experience by next week... I'm hm... well... not sure what to give higher priority
[14:05] <seele> Keybuk: nope, i did ping him again last week too
[14:06] <MacSlow> Keybuk, ok
[14:06] <Keybuk> MacSlow: whatever Mark wants you to do is your priority
[14:06] <MacSlow> Keybuk, Ok I'll check with Mark
[14:07] <Keybuk> MacSlow: and likewise, merges are over now - so we'll drop that final action point
[14:07] <pitti> hm, we shouldn't merge it any more? weird
[14:07] <MacSlow> Keybuk, well goffice and gnumeric are done by now
[14:07] <Keybuk> pitti: Debian Import Freeze
[14:07] <Keybuk> MacSlow: oh, great! I didn't see that in -changes
[14:08] <Keybuk> but now that I learn how to type "office", I can see it
[14:08] <pitti> Keybuk: true, but that's meant as "you have to ask now", not "it's impossible now"?
[14:08] <MacSlow> Keybuk, maybe the stuff mvo sponsored last night didn't show up there yet
[14:08] <seb128> pitti: what do you have to ask now?
[14:08] <pitti> seb128: initial merges
[14:09] <seb128> ask to do what I mean
[14:09] <MacSlow> mvo, is there any latency for stuff to show up once you uploaded it? Now sure how this -changes stuff is generated
[14:09] <MacSlow> s/Now/Not
[14:09] <Keybuk> MacSlow: it's there, I'm just unable to spell
[14:09] <Keybuk> next topic
[14:09] <MacSlow> :)
[14:09] <Keybuk> Activity Reports
[14:09] <mvo> MacSlow: should be here now
[14:09] <Keybuk> (the sending of)
[14:10] <Keybuk> the distro team is ever growing as a team now
[14:10] <MacSlow> mvo, Keybuk just said he misspelled it... probably while searching for the entries :)
[14:10] <mvo> ok
[14:10] <Keybuk> and our internal list is full of the reports, all on different days, etc.
[14:10] <Keybuk> so a decision has been made that distro-team is no longer the appropriate place to send your reports
[14:10] <Keybuk> in future, simply send your reports to your line manager (me!)
[14:11] <pitti> oh, hm
[14:11] <MacSlow> ok
[14:11] <Keybuk> if there's non-confidential bits, you can also send them to ubuntu-desktop where I'm sure the community would be delighted to read them
[14:11] <Keybuk> (or edit out the confidential bits and send them)
[14:11] <seb128> I don't think we should abuse the community list for that
[14:11] <Keybuk> I'll continue to include them in the report from this meeting
[14:11] <pitti> Keybuk: well, for -desktop, the weekly meeting report already goes there, and includes the reports, right?
[14:11] <pitti> so that would be redundant
[14:11] <Keybuk> pitti: right
[14:11] <seb128> will you continue in copying those in the meeting minutes?
[14:11] <Keybuk> seb128: I will
[14:13] <Keybuk> does anybody particularly want their reports to be read before the meeting?
[14:13] <Keybuk> or would everyone be happy with them being read by others as part of the meeting report afterwards?
[14:13] <pitti> occasinoally it is useful to discuss agenda items on the ML before the meeting
[14:14] <Keybuk> it is, but maybe those should be public mailing list threads anyway? :)
[14:14] <pitti> as for the actual reports, inclusion in meeting report sounds good to me
[14:14] <MacSlow> right... e.g. the libpam issue I have is such a thing I guess?
[14:14] <pitti> Keybuk: just what I wanted to say :)
[14:14] <seb128> I like to be able to comment on some points listed during the meeting
[14:14] <seb128> but having those in the meeting agenda is good enough
[14:14] <MacSlow> pitti, would the libpam issue be a topic to be discussed on the ml before the meeting?
[14:15] <Keybuk> if everyone's happy, let's agree to only send the reports to me - and I'll include them in the meeting report, and make sure we have time at the end of the meeting to discuss any points
[14:15] <seb128> works for me
[14:15] <MacSlow> pitti, I only had a very brief discussion with ogra and slangasek on IRC earlier today
[14:15] <pitti> MacSlow: it's pretty independent, I'd say; it's not specific to the desktop team, and should just be discussed on ubuntu-devel@
[14:15] <Keybuk> if you have particular items you want discussed first, you should use the ubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-devel mailing lists as they're intended and discuss it there
[14:15] <MacSlow> pitti, ok
[14:15]  * mvo nods
[14:16] <Keybuk> ok
[14:16] <Keybuk> next week's meeting
[14:16] <Keybuk> I'll be at GUADEC, as will seb128, pedro_, mvo and MacSlow
[14:17] <Keybuk> pitti: will you lead the meeting for the others?
[14:17] <pitti> sure, I can do that, if there's anyone left to meet ;)
[14:17] <pitti> we'll see each other on Sunday anyway, too
[14:18] <Keybuk> do the others feel like they want a meeting?
[14:18] <pitti> let's have the meeting formally, and just cut it after 10 minutes if there's nothing to discuss, shall we?
[14:18] <Keybuk> ok
[14:18] <MacSlow> yup
[14:18] <Keybuk> EVERYONE, cc your activity report to pitti so he can put together the meeting report
[14:18] <Keybuk> pitti: at the very least, send out one with the reports in it
[14:18] <pitti> noted
[14:19] <Keybuk> obviously there will be no desktop team meeting the week after
[14:19] <Keybuk> since we'll all be in sunny london
[14:19] <pitti> \o/
[14:20] <MacSlow> sunny would be awesome :)
[14:20] <pitti> you mean, s/no/the entire week/ :)
[14:20] <Keybuk> well, yes
[14:20] <Keybuk> no online team meeting ;)
[14:21] <Keybuk> on GUADEC, does everybody going know where they're going, where the hotel is, who they're rooming with, etc.?
[14:21] <MacSlow> yes
[14:21] <pedro_> yup
[14:21] <mvo> yes
[14:21] <seb128> sure ;-)
[14:22] <seb128> do we have any agenda about things we should discuss at GUADEC etc?
[14:22] <Keybuk> seb128, mvo, MacSlow: you all fly in on the monday?
[14:23] <MacSlow> late sunday night
[14:23] <MacSlow> yeah... early monday :) sorry
[14:23] <Keybuk> MacSlow: oh, yes, very late
[14:23] <mvo> yep
[14:23] <Keybuk> MacSlow: same flight as mvo
[14:23] <MacSlow> travel begins for me sunday anyway
[14:23] <MacSlow> Keybuk, indeed
[14:23] <Keybuk> MacSlow: make sure you chat to Neil (who you're rooming with) so he knows what time you'll crawl in ;P
[14:24] <seb128> Keybuk: I fly on monday morning, the option on sunday really sucked
[14:24] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I thought I only share room with Neil at the sprint... not at GUADEC
[14:24] <Keybuk> MacSlow: did you read the spreadsheet I sent out?
[14:24] <pedro_> I'm arriving Sunday late at night and starting to travel the Saturday evening eek
[14:24] <mvo> Keybuk: I will try to not wake you up, but it will be late, you may want to use ear-plugs :)
[14:25] <MacSlow> Keybuk, no wait... at the sprint it's Ted
[14:27] <MacSlow> Keybuk, yes... I remember now the spreadsheet supersedes the wiki-page
[14:27] <Keybuk> apologies for the confusion with it all
[14:27] <Keybuk> the hotel wasn't happy booking people in at 4am
[14:27] <Keybuk> so mvo and MacSlow had to share with someone already there
[14:27] <Keybuk> and Eyas attempted to optimise the rooms a little bit too keenly
[14:27] <MacSlow> Keybuk, np
[14:27] <Keybuk> so I flattened it out again best I could
[14:28] <Keybuk> I think, in practice, it was just neil and mirco that got swapped into a room together since Neil arrives on the same flight as me
[14:29] <Keybuk> anyway
[14:29] <Keybuk> agenda for GUADEC
[14:29] <Keybuk> bzr bzr bzr bzr bzr bzr bzr bzr
[14:29] <seb128> fight fight fight?
[14:29] <MacSlow> ?
[14:29] <MacSlow> ? ? ? ? :)
[14:29] <Keybuk> the Bazaar folks are sending a veritable army to persuade GNOME that git is a piece of crap
[14:29] <seb128> that's going to require a lot of beers ;-)
[14:30] <mvo> bzr++
[14:30] <MacSlow> faith-wars ahead ;)
[14:30] <Keybuk> hiring is another big one
[14:30] <MacSlow> the Xorg-crowd will try to counter that I could imagine
[14:30] <Keybuk> we're hiring:
[14:30] <Keybuk>  * Desktop Team Manager
[14:30] <Keybuk>  * Ubuntu GNOME Maintainer
[14:31] <Keybuk>  * about 3 developers to work on Ubuntu Online Desktop
[14:31] <Keybuk>  * some developers (probably about the same number) to work on the Ubuntu Desktop Experience
[14:31] <mvo> incidenty I draftet a little "git-for-bzr-users" the other night about my painful learning of the git basics
[14:32] <Keybuk> so we should tell people how great it is to work for Canonical :)
[14:33] <tedg> So a religious fight over version control and hiring bonuses ;)
[14:33] <Keybuk> oh, yes, hiring bonuses!
[14:33] <Keybuk> remember, if you recommend someone who gets a job, you get $$ :p
[14:33] <MacSlow> hint: keep me out of any discussion regarding packaging ;)
[14:33] <Keybuk> MacSlow: 5-6 of the positions do not involve significant amounts of packaging
[14:34] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I know... it was meant as a joke :)
[14:34] <Keybuk> in fact, some of those may end up being your team mates
[14:34] <tedg> We should start a pyramid scheme, if you recommend someone who gets a job who then recommends someone who gets a job you get a bonus ;)
[14:34] <seb128> "  * some developers (probably about the same number) to work on the Ubuntu Desktop Experience"
[14:34] <Keybuk> seb128: intended paste?
[14:34] <seb128> is that upstream work? rather bling or all sort of desktop work?
[14:35] <seb128> Keybuk: yes ;-)
[14:35] <Keybuk> very bling upstream work
[14:35] <seb128> ok
[14:35] <Keybuk> hopefully you all know now that I am stepping down as the head of the Desktop Team
[14:36] <Keybuk> and that we'll be hiring a new manager, who will be supported by a Technical Lead
[14:36] <Keybuk> (the platform team will undergo a similar change)
[14:36] <Keybuk> the desktop team will continue to concentrate on maintenance of the two desktop edition
[14:37] <Keybuk> development of software to deal with the common experiences, and stuff unique to ubuntu like jockey, update manager, etc.
[14:37] <Keybuk> in fact, there will be a little internal shuffling in the distro so that other desktop-related bits will fall into the desktop team
[14:38] <Keybuk> as part of this, the "new experience" work will be separated out into a new team
[14:38] <Keybuk> this team will be doing lots of very cool development work, looking at new and blingful ways to improve the desktop
[14:38] <Keybuk> and this time will be very much an upstream team
[14:38] <Keybuk> a new manager will be hired for this team, provisionally called the "desktop experience team"
[14:39] <Keybuk> and ted and mirco will transfer over to that team
[14:39] <Keybuk> in the meantime, since Mark is keen to get started, they'll continue to report to me but Mark will manage their day-to-day workloads
[14:40] <ogra> experience ....
[14:40] <ogra> :)
[14:40] <Keybuk> I know that Mirco is greatly looking forwards to not doing any more merges :)
[14:40] <MacSlow> YES!
[14:40] <mvo> heh :)
[14:40] <MacSlow> GL all the way!
[14:40] <ogra> MacSlow, congrats to getting that ugly goffice/gnimric stuff in shape btw :)
[14:40] <ogra> *gnumeric
[14:41] <MacSlow> ogra, much of the nasty bits mvo has to get the credit for!
[14:41] <ogra> well, but you have seen the guts and it wasnt an easy one :)
[14:41] <seb128> next he's going to update pam apparently ;-)
[14:41] <ogra> yeah, i heard that one
[14:41] <ogra> fine if he takes over maintenance for it :P
[14:41] <mvo> I kept wondering during the merge if it shouldn't be xubuntu people doing it given that the multibuild was added specifically for them
[14:41] <ogra> yeah
[14:41] <MacSlow> ogra, at least I now can appreciate the work done by mvo, seb128, pitti & Co even more... merges can be bloody gruesome :)
[14:42] <Keybuk> mvo: because making cody-somerville cry is such fun? :)
[14:42] <mvo> seb128: *cough*
[14:42]  * ogra was expecting that too
[14:42] <mvo> yeah :)
[14:42] <seb128> mvo: it should yes, but apparently they are busy or slacking or something
[14:42] <MacSlow> seb128, can you feel my pain? ;)
[14:42] <seb128> that's not that bad ;-)
[14:43] <Keybuk> MacSlow: so, about pam
[14:43] <Keybuk> you have an agenda item for it <g>
[14:43] <MacSlow> seb128, I'd rather prefer sticking to gdm r6275 and avoid the libpam issue for some time... ogra and slangasek told me earlier what a huge bunch of work it would be to update everything to libpam >= 0.99.10.0
[14:44] <MacSlow> I'm scared as hell regarding the libpam issue
[14:44] <Keybuk> MacSlow: sounds like this should be discussed on ubuntu-devel
[14:44] <Keybuk> slangasek is Mr PAM
[14:44] <MacSlow> Keybuk, so skip it here and just ask what I want to ask on the ubuntu-devel ml?!
[14:45] <Keybuk> o/~ Call Mr. PAM, that's my name
[14:45] <seb128> are you sure the new version is required?
[14:45] <Keybuk> o/~ that name again is Mr. PAM
[14:45] <seb128> http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gdm/trunk/daemon/gdm-session-worker.c?r1=6276&r2=6275&pathrev=6276
[14:45] <Keybuk> MacSlow: exactly
[14:45] <seb128> the code seems to use ifdef cases
[14:45] <MacSlow> Keybuk, ok
[14:45] <MacSlow> seb128, hm... didn't saw that yet
[14:45] <Keybuk> (-> mailing list ;)
[14:45] <Keybuk> tedg: IM Future
[14:46] <MacSlow> I wonder if Fedora uses a new libpam already
[14:46] <tedg> So the question came up with where do we seem IM going on the desktop.
[14:46] <Keybuk> IM being Instant Messaging
[14:46] <tedg> Is it a Pidgin or a Telepathy thing.
[14:46] <tedg> It seems like Telepathy is trying to get into GNOME, but not for this round at least.
[14:47] <seb128> MacSlow:  fc9 has 1.0.1
[14:47] <Keybuk> my feeling is that Pidgin vaguely works, but isn't popular
[14:47] <tedg> Will Empathy be default on the Ubuntu desktop in the future?
[14:47] <Keybuk> Telepathy is popular, the future, but doesn't work
[14:47] <seb128> Keybuk: I've to opposite feeling
[14:47] <Keybuk> seb128: really, which feeling do you have?
[14:47] <seb128> I've the impression 95% of linux non-kde users are running pidgin
[14:47] <mvo> I guess this is because pdigin works
[14:48] <seb128> or maybe I didn't get your "popular" definition
[14:48] <Keybuk> ah, sorry
[14:48] <pitti> why isn't pidging popular?
[14:48] <Keybuk> by popular I meant that nobody really _likes it_
[14:48] <Keybuk> but everybody uses it
[14:48] <pedro_> it's very popular
[14:48] <pitti> it speaks everything IMish and looks moderately decent?
[14:48] <seb128> to be fair I don't think we get very users complains
[14:48] <Keybuk> Pidgin vaguely works, everyone uses it, but nobody really likes it
[14:48] <MacSlow> seb128, that explains their forward nature to add this newer libpam feature to gdm
[14:48] <pitti> i. e. my q is: what's wrong with it?
[14:48] <seb128> it just works fine for all the lusers I know
[14:48] <Keybuk> everyone likes Telepathy, but it doesn't work and nobody uses it much
[14:49] <seb128> "everyone" in the GNOME upstream community you mean
[14:49] <Keybuk> yeah
[14:49]  * Keybuk isn't picking good words today
[14:49] <seb128> the large userbase has nothing against pidgin from what I can see
[14:49] <seb128> I would be in favor to keep using pidgin until we have a compeling reason to switch
[14:49] <Keybuk> the main thing telepathy has going for it, is that one day it will do MSN video chats
[14:50] <seb128> or until telepathy is a good as pidgin is
[14:50] <Keybuk> (it claims to do it today, but usually crashes on me <g>)
[14:50] <seb128> the telepathy stack is available in ubuntu and people who know about it are usually fine installing it
[14:50] <seb128> and users who don't know about it likely want to use pidgin at the moment because it works better
[14:51] <Keybuk> so would you say that Pidgin is clearly today's choice
[14:51] <seb128> so I would be in favor of keeping pidgin as the default for now
[14:51] <pitti> of course it would be nice to eventually merge things like pidgin and ekiga, but is it there yet?
[14:51] <Keybuk> and the choice of the near future
[14:51] <seb128> dunno about near future
[14:51] <Keybuk> but in the distant future, telepathy may have more promise
[14:51] <MacSlow> regarding pidgin... it's ICQ-plugin just started to fail working yesterday
[14:51] <seb128> but I don't see that changing in a 6 months timeframe
[14:51] <pitti> MacSlow: hardy-proposed FTW
[14:52] <seb128> MacSlow: already fixed yesterday for gutsy, hardy and intrepid
[14:52] <MacSlow> pitti, I've those enabled... odd
[14:52] <seb128> MacSlow: the hardy update was blocked until this morning due to 8.04.1
[14:52] <pitti> MacSlow: upgrade again :) (and maybe de.archive mirror lag)
[14:52] <Keybuk> tedg: does that answer your question? :)
[14:52] <seb128> anyway
[14:52] <seb128> what other people think about pidgin?
[14:52] <seb128> I've been a bit vocal but I'm interested in other people opinion too ;-)
[14:53] <ogra> pitti, so would you drop xchat for pidgin ?
[14:53] <tedg> Keybuk: Yes.
[14:53] <seb128> ogra: we did that a year ago
[14:53] <Keybuk> I use pidgin for MSN, I tried to hack on the code a couple of times, but it made me ill
[14:53] <ogra> seb128, pitti didnt :)
[14:53] <pitti> ogra: we haven't isntalled xchat for ages any more; WDYM?
[14:53] <ogra> seb128, me neither
[14:53] <Keybuk> I use Empathy for Jabber and Bonjour, and the code for that is much neater
[14:53] <tedg> Personally, I like Empathy but it does make me unhappy often (using Pidgin now)
[14:53] <pitti> ogra: oh, you mean me personally? I use weechat nowadays
[14:53] <Keybuk> but then again, random trivia time
[14:53] <ogra> pitti, oh, i thought you had it last sprint :) sorry then
[14:53] <seb128> Keybuk: code is not revelant here since we don't do upstream work on it ;-)
[14:54] <Keybuk> we use Telepathy to do the Icecast streaming at UDS
[14:54] <MacSlow> pitti, seb128: will try
[14:54] <ogra> pitti, so why dont you use pidgin ? :)
[14:54] <seb128> what we need to know if it does as many protocol, has the same features and is as stable
[14:54] <pitti> I use pidgin every day (started automatically) for ICQ and jabber, and it Just Works
[14:54] <Keybuk> and it breaks randomly
[14:54] <pitti> ogra: too wasteful with screen space
[14:54] <ogra> it does IRC as well
[14:54] <ogra> right
[14:54] <Keybuk> in fact, we had to roll back to hardy versions of some things just to make it work for Prague
[14:54] <seb128> I use it for icq, jabber, msn and bonjour at conference and it just works for me too
[14:54] <tedg> seb128: Telepathy will use pidgin's libpurple, so the protocols aren't as much of an issue.
[14:54] <Keybuk> so Telepathy clearly has a way to go
[14:54] <pitti> just fine for ICQ, but not nice for IRC channels which are permanently open
[14:54] <ogra> i fintd it unusable for IRC as well ...
[14:54] <tedg> seb128: It isn't as stable though.
[14:54] <Keybuk> seb128: the pidgin bonjour implementation is infamously broken
[14:55] <Keybuk> pidgin can only talk to pidgin
[14:55] <seb128> when I tried it previous time I didn't manage to configure an account
[14:55] <seb128> but maybe I should try again
[14:55] <tedg> The cool part about telepathy is the GStreamer integration, the voice chats and video (I haven't done that yet) possibilities are exciting.
[14:55] <pedro_> also at the moment Empathy doesn't have a lot of the shiny things that normal users tend to use (smiles, themes, etc) it's also a bit difficult to configure (new accounts for instance)
[14:55] <seb128> well
[14:55] <seb128> on the paper telepathy is great
[14:55] <seb128> and it's clearly the way to go
[14:55] <seb128> I just don't think it's there yet
[14:56] <seb128> and I think our usebase will not like the change because it'll no win them a lot
[14:56] <tedg> Also, folks like Abiword are using it for their AbiCollab stuff (one mode of it)
[14:56] <ogra> just ship the papaer with the CDs :)
[14:56] <seb128> and it still has many issues compared to pidgin
[14:56] <MacSlow> tedg, the gstreamer-bits of Telepathy make me jump of joy regarding all the "hideous" things one could to with GL on it
[14:56] <seb128> that's likely early gstreamer days
[14:56] <Keybuk> tedg: Abiword vs. OpenOffice is a totally different religious war ;)
[14:56] <seb128> everybody was still using totem-xine
[14:56] <ogra> Keybuk, a totally vaid one though ... until it comes to .ppt
[14:56] <Keybuk> seb128: I think we got away with that because nobody really expected video to work
[14:56] <ogra> *valid
[14:57] <Keybuk> so we were able to bet on gstreamer, and wait for it to develop
[14:57] <Keybuk> I think people expect IM to work too much
[14:57]  * tedg doesn't know why development of presentation software seems to fail
[14:57] <Keybuk> so we have to use Pidgin, and can't default to telepathy until it actually works
[14:57] <seb128> right
[14:57] <MacSlow> Keybuk, three of the core gstreamer folks are at Collabora now
[14:57] <seb128> and my gut feeling is that telepathy is not there yet
[14:57] <mvo> they are used to see it working from previous releases
[14:58] <seb128> and it'll be perceived as a regression for many users in the current state
[14:58] <MacSlow> Keybuk, so one can expect to see gstreamer usage in telepathy rock sooner or later
[14:58] <Keybuk> tedg: http://www.apple.com/iwork/keynote/ but for Linux ... mmmm
[14:58] <ogra> tedg, yes, its a shame ... and there were several attaempts ... but you are somewhat bound to have ppt support *first* before you start anything else , because its a quasi standard
[14:58] <MacSlow> Keybuk, but that's just a bit of guessing from my side
[14:58] <seb128> UI too confusing, too many bugs, features not ready yet
[14:58] <tedg> So, let me add a GUADEC question.... Telepathy for next LTS?
[14:58] <seb128> yes
[14:58] <seb128> I would say a one year timeframe seems reasonable
[14:58] <seb128> maybe intrepid+1
[14:59] <seb128> just my opinion
[14:59] <seb128> but it depends a lot of active the project is in the next months, not easy to say
[14:59] <seb128> gvfs is stalled at the moment for example
[14:59] <tedg> Keybuk: Have you actually used Keynote?  I haven't done anything but look at screenshots :-/
[15:00] <Keybuk> tedg: yes
[15:00] <Keybuk> it's really quite nice
[15:00] <tedg> Keybuk: What's so great?
[15:00] <tedg> Is Nokia still funding Telepathy development?
[15:00] <seb128> btw does anybody knows what is going on tracker?
[15:00] <Keybuk> tedg: it's not the PowerPoint model of presentation, where you draw boxes and drop things into slides
[15:00] <seb128> some guys are commiting all days long on it for months now
[15:00] <Keybuk> tedg: it's much more about visuals and styles, and emphasis on what you want to say
[15:01] <seb128> is nokia funding them to get it on shape or something?
[15:01] <Keybuk> hard to explain really
[15:01] <Keybuk> I found it really easy to put together a presentation in keynote, when OOo (and ppt) seems like a hard slog
[15:01] <tedg> seb128: Nokia funded the original work, it ships in the Internet tablets today.
[15:01] <seb128> tedg: speaking about what?
[15:01] <tedg> seb128: I'm not sure if they're funding more work or not.
[15:01] <tedg> seb128: Telepathy.
[15:02] <seb128> I was speaking about tracker, the indexer thing
[15:02] <tedg> Heh, okay :)
[15:02] <tedg> Sorry.
[15:02] <tedg> Keybuk: Interesting, I'll have to convince my wife she needs a copy at academic discount so I can play with it :)
[15:03] <Keybuk> tedg: you can download a free trial
[15:03] <Keybuk> seb128: no idea about tracker, not been following it
[15:03] <Keybuk> it's another thing in my "want, but ewwww" bin
[15:04]  * Keybuk presses on, since we're over time
[15:04] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReportingPage
[15:04] <Keybuk> please, please, everybody add things to that page today
[15:04] <Keybuk> I need to write the monthly report and team report, and have little content
[15:04] <tedg> The KDE tracker (I forget the name) seems to be developing well.
[15:04] <tedg> If it's all XESAM as the backend, it might be an option.
[15:04] <Riddell> strigi
[15:04] <Keybuk> otherwise is there any other business?
[15:05] <mvo> Keybuk: should we add the major bits of the last month to that reports page?
[15:05] <pitti> I wanted to discuss g-s-t replacement, but that can happen on the ML, too
[15:05] <tedg> Riddell: How "QT" is it?  Can you just install the indexer/backend?
[15:05] <Riddell> tedg: the backend isn't Qt at all
[15:05] <pitti> I sent a report last week, but got no response so far
[15:05] <mvo> pitti: the users tool is the only missing bit, right?
[15:05] <pitti> mvo: exactly
[15:05] <mvo> pitti: you seemed to be not very happy with the system-config-users you reviewed
[15:06] <pitti> not with the authorization, no
[15:06] <seb128> pitti: oh, there was some pending questions? I read the report, great one btw, and conclude that's not something we want to use
[15:06] <Keybuk> mvo: yes please
[15:06] <pitti> so if anyone knows an alternative, please tell us
[15:06] <pitti> seb128: not without some good chunk of upstream work, yes
[15:07] <tedg> Riddell: Hmm, I don't know that it's something for Intrepid, but perhaps we should discuss the idea of using strigi at UDS "J"?  I'd solve the "I changed desktops and have to re-index my files" problem.
[15:07] <Keybuk> Jazzy Jaguar
[15:08] <Keybuk> (* note: invented in my head, and my history of guessing names is poor )
[15:08] <MacSlow> Keybuk, sounds like a games-console :)
[15:08] <Riddell> tedg: it would certainly be nice to have only one backend
[15:09] <ogra> the twelve cylinder release :)
[15:09] <Keybuk> ok
[15:09] <Keybuk> adjourned
[15:09] <MacSlow> Riddell, how much interaction (code-sharing) is likely to happen between tracker and strigi?
[15:09] <Keybuk> thanks all
[15:09] <seb128> Keybuk: thanks
[15:09] <mvo> thanks Keybuk
[15:09] <pitti> thanks everyone
[15:09] <MacSlow> thanks!
[15:10] <MacSlow> Riddell, strigi is C++ (iirc) and tracker is C, right?
[15:10] <Riddell> MacSlow: yes
[15:10] <Riddell> MacSlow: tracker hasn't been keen to work with strigi, libstreamanalyzer was written with them in mind but they never picked it up
[15:11] <MacSlow> Riddell, *sigh*
[15:11] <tedg> MacSlow: My understanding from FOSSCamp is that they have different "indexing concepts" -- but after that it was jibberish to me.
[15:11] <Riddell> also I don't know if there's a standard ontology, so you can't just swap one for the other even with XESAM
[15:12] <MacSlow> Riddell, so there's beagle, strigi and tracker now for some time... and no sign of any unification... well apart from this f.d.o spec
[15:12] <MacSlow> Riddell, I though that was what XESAM was all about... to be able to switch the indexer-backends
[15:12] <Riddell> MacSlow: with XESAN I think it should be faily easy to port apps from one to the other, but some porting still needed
[15:13] <Riddell> MacSlow: right, so same query language, but different queries needed
[15:13] <Riddell> (as I understand it)
[15:13] <MacSlow> probably not good to try thinking about it without having followed those projects closely
[15:13] <Riddell> indeed
[15:13] <MacSlow> tedg, vices and virtues of OSS-development... everybody has a "better" idea of the same thing :)
[15:14] <tedg> Yup, part of what I'm talking about at OSCON ;)
[15:15] <MacSlow> tedg, too bad I'm not going to OSCON
[15:16] <tedg> MacSlow: Well, if nothing else it would suck to go to Istanbul, London and Portland in all weeks following each other :)
[15:16] <MacSlow> tedg, this indexer problem reminds me a bit of the TTM-vs-GEM dispute in Xorg-land
[15:17] <MacSlow> tedg, Portland... what's there again?
[15:17] <tedg> MacSlow: Yeah, there's tons of debates like it in Open Source.  It's sad that we get divided, but I think it usually results in a stronger solution in the end.
[15:17] <tedg> MacSlow: OSCON
[15:17] <MacSlow> hopefully
[15:17] <tedg> MacSlow: It's the week after the sprint.
[15:18] <MacSlow> tedg, I just so much look for DRI2... and honestly don't care if it will use TTM or GEM in the end. Right now it's TTM
[15:19] <MacSlow> OSS gfx-drivers should just be feature-wise on-par with nvidia's binary-blob
[15:20] <tedg> MacSlow: I guess for me, at the end of the day with X, it's what drivers will support it.  Sadly, the answer is probably non for quite a while.
[15:20] <MacSlow> the upstream version for i965 looks promising
[15:20] <tedg> That'd be nice, I hate my Intel graphics chip.  It's the reason my wife refers to Ubuntu as "instable" -- it crashes the display every few days.
[15:20] <tedg> Or, sorry, unstable.
[15:21] <MacSlow> tedg, the i965?! hm... my laptop has one too and it's rock-solid for me (only major issue is DRI2 missing)
[15:22] <MacSlow> well and a couple of GL-extensions I really like (FBOs, GLSL)
[15:22] <tedg> MacSlow: I've got a Mac Mini which I'm pretty sure is using that chip, and it crashes regularly.
[15:22] <MacSlow> but like mentioned the upstream version has those... only a bit unstable
[15:22] <tedg> MacSlow: I'm not sure if it's that it's using shared memory and I'm running it at 1920x1200 -- but it runs fine in OSX.
[15:54] <leetcharmer> Hello everyone :)
[15:54] <leetcharmer> Is this where the Ubuntu Java Meeting is going to be held?
[15:54] <slytherin> leetcharmer: yes, but it is going to after one hour
[15:55] <leetcharmer> Isn't it 1555 UTC right now?
[15:56] <leetcharmer> I thought it started at 16:00 UTC
[15:59] <persia> It's Almost 16:00 BST, but that's an hour different than UTC (Summer time in Britain)
[16:01] <robilad> so - in 60 minutes
[16:01] <robilad> stay around, or join us on #ubuntu-java to discuss other things you'd like to put on the agenda
[17:00] <laga> yay, java
[17:00] <leetcharmer> hihi all :D
[17:01] <dholbach> hiya
[17:01] <robilad> hi dholbach
[17:01] <leetcharmer> Hello everyone
[17:01] <chandru_in> hi friends
[17:01] <dholbach> who's here for the Java Team meeting?
[17:01] <chandru_in> hi robilad :)
[17:01] <leetcharmer> I am :D
[17:01] <persia> \o
[17:01]  * robilad too
[17:01] <laga> i am.
[17:01] <dholbach> doko: are you around?
[17:01] <laga> just listening in, thouh.
[17:02] <laga> s/thouh/though/
[17:02] <bliZZardz> mute spectator
[17:02] <dholbach> do we have YuriyKozlov and FlavioMartins here?
[17:02]  * ScottK is just listening too.
[17:02] <dholbach> just making sure all people with agenda items are around
[17:02] <rivasdiaz> spectator
[17:02] <leetcharmer> laga: NERD!! just type though* :D
[17:02] <Koon> o/
[17:02] <dholbach> hi Koon
[17:02] <laga> leetcharmer: huh. that's common on IRC. :)
[17:02]  * Koon hugs dholbach
[17:02] <dholbach> so who's going to run the meeting?
[17:03]  * dholbach hugs Koon back
[17:03] <leetcharmer> laga: more like common in vim :D
[17:03] <yuriy> hi!
[17:03]  * marting will probably just lurk and listen during the java meeting
[17:03] <dholbach> OK, I'll start off the meeting but will have to clear out in 1h30m
[17:04] <cody-somerville> \o_
[17:04] <robilad> sounds good
[17:04] <dholbach> so let's get started - we have an action packed agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[17:04]  * chandru_in is excited
[17:04] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[17:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:05. The chair is dholbach.
[17:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:04] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Development targets for intrepid (EmmetHikory)
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Development targets for intrepid (EmmetHikory)
[17:04] <dholbach> persia: the floor is yours :)
[17:05] <dholbach> I guess this is about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadmap which is pretty empty right now?
[17:05] <persia> OK.  I'd like my items in reverse order.
[17:05]  * doko will leave at 17:00 UTC
[17:05] <persia> First is regular meeting times: is this a good time?  Are people missing that we'd like to see present?  Do we want meetings weekly?  fortnightly?
[17:06] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Setting regular meeting times
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Setting regular meeting times
[17:06] <leetcharmer> I don't like this meeting time because it's too close to when I work
[17:07] <leetcharmer> but, if everyone else is good for it, then I can't complain
[17:07] <dholbach> leetcharmer: earlier? later?
[17:07] <leetcharmer> earlier please
[17:07] <chandru_in> Coming form India, I find it really good (9:30 PM IST)  But others I guess, esp from western part of globe will have few probs
[17:07] <leetcharmer> ya, it's 11:07AM right now here
[17:07] <dholbach> I wouldn't mind having it earlier
[17:07] <leetcharmer> at noon here, I'll be working
[17:08] <dholbach> but I'm generall OK with this time
[17:08] <mslama> i would prefer 1hr sooner but lower priority, prefer not later than now
[17:08] <leetcharmer> 10AM here is really good :) which, I think is 15:00UTC during summer?
[17:08] <robilad> 1 hour earlier would work a bit better for me, too.
[17:08] <leetcharmer> yea, I'd like 1 hour earlier
[17:08] <persia> Right.  Let's go with 15:00 then.
[17:08] <mslama> at least at summer time
[17:08] <persia> Weekly or fortnightly?
[17:08] <dholbach> excellent
[17:08] <chandru_in> I'd be happy with an hour earlier too
[17:09] <leetcharmer> what is fortnightly?
[17:09] <robilad> every two weeks
[17:09] <dholbach> every 14 days
[17:09] <persia> leetcharmer: Once a fortnight (14 days)
[17:09] <dholbach> leetcharmer: don't worry - I had to ask too :)
[17:10] <chandru_in> Initially at least a weekly meet should be nice.  As we may need to iron out integration with rest of desktop and stuff
[17:10] <leetcharmer> persia: that is the weirdest thing I'd ever heard.
[17:10] <dholbach> the only person I'm missing right now is man-di
[17:10] <dholbach> can somebody mail him and ask if Thu 15:00 UTC is OK for him?
[17:10] <leetcharmer> weekly is fine for now, but lets transition to fortnight overtime :)
[17:11] <chandru_in> leetcharmer: +1
[17:11] <dholbach> persia: are you happy to move to the next topic?
[17:11] <persia> dholbach: Sure.
[17:11] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Development targets for intrepid (EmmetHikory)
[17:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Development targets for intrepid (EmmetHikory)
[17:11] <persia> Right.  Development targets for intrepid:  What do we want to do?
[17:12] <cody-somerville> A java stack that Just Works (TM).
[17:12] <dholbach> It'd be nice if we directly added new targets to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadmap
[17:12] <robilad> dholbach: I pinged man-di, and pass back his reply.
[17:12] <leetcharmer> new targets?
[17:12] <persia> For me, trying to get everything out of universe, and getting the necessary helpers to make launching Java just work are interesting.  What are other people's goals?
[17:12] <robilad> i.e. will pass back
[17:12] <dholbach> thanks robilad
[17:13] <leetcharmer> persia: can you define Java Just work a little better?
[17:13] <robilad> persia: out of universe as in moving to main?
[17:13] <persia> Bah.  I'm not being clear :(
[17:13] <persia> Launching Java is sometimes tricky because of JAVA_HOME and the like, which I think we ought be able to solve.
[17:13] <chandru_in> leetcharmer: I guess it is related to the 3rd topic in Agenda to some extent
[17:13] <persia> I meant "out of multiverse".  Some in main would be nice.
[17:14] <robilad> right, thanks
[17:14] <robilad> both sound great to me
[17:14] <dholbach> so can we make the goals a bit more clear and explicit?
[17:14] <Koon> persia: more support for building packages "the Debian way" using maven2
[17:14] <persia> maven2?
[17:14] <cody-somerville> Is there anything we can do to optimize the stack? Java has gotten a rap for being slow and bloated and it would be nice to see that perception (or reality) shift.
[17:14] <leetcharmer> maven2??
[17:14] <chandru_in> I'd suggest packaging a Java stack by default in server edition as first move
[17:14] <Koon> I mean maven.
[17:15] <bliZZardz> chandru_in: stack - as in..which all components there?
[17:15] <chandru_in> JDK 6 + Tomcat/Glassfish/JBoss
[17:15] <leetcharmer> "<persia> Launching Java is sometimes tricky because of JAVA_HOME and the like, which I think we ought be able to solve."  I think solving this should be a priority :)
[17:16] <chandru_in> MySQL is already there so no probs there
[17:16] <bliZZardz> leetcharmer : that is one hell of a problem. I guess this was a prominent topic even in JavaPolis(read some blogs)
[17:17] <chandru_in> I'm not really understanding what exactly we need JAVA_HOME for (except to configure servers for which anyway we may need to set other environment vars too)
[17:17] <daviem> don't forget jetty
[17:17] <Koon> chandru_in: see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/j2ee
[17:17] <chandru_in> To the default server stack we can add in Spring and Hibernate libs too
[17:17] <dholbach> I think adding targets like "evaluate if ..." are a good idea right now - also it'd be nice if those of you being interested in working on them would add their name to the target too
[17:17] <persia> It sounds like we've a few ideas going.  Would you guys mind putting a little writeup on the Roadmap (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadmap).  I'll add mine in my morning.
[17:18] <robilad> ok, I'd suggest that for the 'multiverse to universe' transition part of persia's proposal we add it to the roadmap as a goal, and flesh out application and libraries we'd like to see successfully migrate
[17:18] <chandru_in> thanks Koon
[17:18] <persia> I think we'll get a lot of help from Debian's parallel Java-in-main effort, and can usefully coordinate with Debian on most of the changes we make.
[17:19] <Koon> chandru_in: it's more at the evaluation stage, but we need to have the basic infrastructure that could make it happen.
[17:19] <leetcharmer> bliZZardz: what makes it so difficult?
[17:19] <robilad> yep
[17:19] <homanj> got here late. where are we in the agenda?
[17:19] <dholbach> so who of you is interested in working on/coordinating which target?
[17:19] <dholbach> homanj: intrepid goals
[17:19] <homanj> dholbach: thanks.
[17:20] <chandru_in> I'd like to help with the server integration part
[17:20] <dholbach> it sounds like chandru_in and Koon probably have a target together - that sounds great
[17:21] <dholbach> what's going to be part of your effort?
[17:22]  * chandru_in is more of a Java developer than a good Deb packager
[17:23] <chandru_in> :(
[17:23] <dholbach> I think it's fine if we don't have all the specifics in our hands yet, but we should have something a bit more concrete on the wiki page
[17:23] <chandru_in> ok
[17:23] <Koon> dholbach: at that point we need to evaluate how much dependencies are needed to be added for having something as Geronimo or Glassfish in. Both rely on maven to build so having more "offline" capabilities for maven is a plus
[17:24] <persia> I'm happy with this response to my topic, and if those with goals are willing to update the roadmap and document the specifics, I'm done.
[17:24] <chandru_in> Will do my best persia
[17:24] <dholbach> doko, robilad: what's part of the main/universe transition? can we add something to the roadmap there?
[17:24] <doko> dholbach: which transition?
[17:25] <dholbach> doko: robilad mentioned a multiverse to universe transition
[17:25] <robilad> yeah, I picked that up from persia's formulation of the goals above
[17:25] <leetcharmer> dholbach: wasn't it a multiverse to main?
[17:25] <slytherin> Koon: glassfish is already in. hibernate and jboss are caught in vicious circle of circular dependencies.
[17:25] <dholbach> I think it's important that the new Java team talks about what's happening and who's involved in what
[17:25] <bliZZardz> leetcharmer : it is more to do with which is the right way to set it.i get confused sometimes.
[17:25] <dholbach> leetcharmer: that's what I'm trying to figure out
[17:25] <robilad> sounds like a nice idea for packages we care about to help make sure they move from multiverse to universe.
[17:26] <dholbach> right now the Roadmap is blank :)
[17:26] <persia> There are two separate bits: multiverse to universe is generally useful.  universe to main depends largely on OpenJDK universe to main (which is the next topic)
[17:26] <chandru_in> slytherin: What kind of dependencies?
[17:26] <Koon> slytherin: glassfish v2 is in multiverse -- the idea would be to get v3 in universe
[17:26] <doko> for multiverse -> universe, there's nothing more to do than checking it works with openjdk
[17:26] <slytherin> chandru_in: Check http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs for now. We can discuss it sometime later.
[17:27] <doko> Koon: there's a hell to do with glassfish packaging (and building from source)
[17:27] <Koon> doko: oh yes. especially if we stick with maven (they use a lot of maven plugins)
[17:28] <Koon> doko: we might conclude that it's not worth it
[17:28] <chandru_in> isn't Glassfish already in universe?
[17:28] <doko> no, there's a very small subset of it
[17:28] <geser> chandru_in: for JBoss (jbossas4) see bug 184557
[17:29] <slytherin> For multiverse -> universe, one also needs to make sure that build package doesn't miss any classes due to compilation with Free jdk. It happened with me in case of xmlgraphics-commons.
[17:29] <leetcharmer> alright, it's time for me to go.  I'll see you guys next week :) Hopefully an hour earlier :)
[17:29] <Koon> doko: though, from what I've seen, geronimo is even worse in terms of deps :)
[17:29]  * leetcharmer waves goodbye.
[17:29] <robilad> bye leetcharmer
[17:29] <dholbach> bye leetcharmer
[17:30] <leetcharmer> is next meeting time gonna be posted on the JavaMeeting wiki page?
[17:30] <chandru_in> bye leetcharmer
[17:30] <robilad> leetcharmer: yes
[17:30] <leetcharmer> thanks
[17:31] <dholbach> OK... let's all update the Roadmap accordingly and review it next time - persia: OK?
[17:31] <persia> That's fine by me.  I didn't mean to take this long, and am very curious about the next topic.
[17:31] <chandru_in> ok
[17:31] <chandru_in> ﻿﻿So how many would like a free replacement for the new features in next gen Java plugin (which is proprietary).  This is give Java a boost on desktop and RIA space (a free RIA platform)?
[17:31] <dholbach> thanks persia
[17:32] <dholbach> robilad: and yuriy want to talk about "OpenJDK in main"
[17:32] <dholbach> [TOPIC] OpenJDK in main
[17:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  OpenJDK in main
[17:32] <robilad> thanks, dholbach
[17:32] <doko> what's the goal of discussing "likings about the new plugin" ?
[17:32] <chandru_in> may be some developer here can develop free replacement for it possibly basing out of the gcj web plugin codebase
[17:33] <dherron> doko, clearly "plugin" is high on a lot of wish lists...
[17:33] <slytherin> chandru_in: please keep the discussion close to agenda
[17:33] <doko> openjdk in main will likely happen in July; the problem will be that we won't have it on all architectures, so people and packagers should be prepared to see another vm/sdk on the community ports
[17:34] <chandru_in> slytherin: ok can I bring it up during the desktop integration topic?
[17:34] <yuriy> so, now that there are no licensing issues stopping it, I think Java (OpenJDK) should Just Work OOTB
[17:34] <doko> dherron: but unlikely for intrepid, afaik
[17:34] <yuriy> and then there's also no need for gcj?
[17:34] <doko> yuriy: please read what I did write
[17:34] <dherron> doko, right... if the plugin gets more liberally distributed it won't happen by then
[17:35] <persia> doko: Which platforms are expected to be problematic for OpenJDK?
[17:35] <doko> powerpc, ia64, hppa
[17:36] <persia> So all of sparc, i386, amd64, and lpia should be good?
[17:36] <dherron> persia, openjdk out of the box only supports linux+x86 and linux+x86_64 ... however, doko, do you have any thought of using the zero assembler port to support other platforms
[17:36] <yuriy> none of those are officially supported?
[17:36] <doko> the powerpc port currently can be used for building, but it's unusable for any real work
[17:36] <robilad> yuriy: there are no free software ports of openjdk's hotspot to powerpc, hppa and ia64 yet.
[17:36] <doko> sparc is unsupported by upstream
[17:37] <robilad> yep
[17:37] <dherron> the linux+sparc code is out, however, if I recall right, just not well supported
[17:37] <yuriy> robilad: I meant those architectures, by Ubuntu/Canonical
[17:37] <persia> OK.  So we probably need a couple people to chase powerpc and sparc if we want those.  I think ia64 and hppa are special :)
[17:37] <robilad> sparc-linux is supported by the community, rather then sun specifically.
[17:37] <ScottK> They are community supported in Ubuntu, just not by Canonical.
[17:38] <doko> dherron: yes, we can use it to build stuff, but not to run. and for ia64 it doesn't build: http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/tmp/openjdk-ia64-ecj.log
[17:39] <persia> robilad: Are patches typically accepted upstream easily for e.g. sparc or powerpc?
[17:39] <dholbach> do we have upstream bug reports or upstream plans for the problems / missing functionality?
[17:39] <robilad> sparc-linux shouldn't be a problem, ideally we could kick off a porting project upstream on the existing codebase, and have everyone interested in sparc-linux pool into it.
[17:40] <robilad> I'm currently working on making sure the BSD port gets integrated into upstream
[17:40] <robilad> and I assume they would be interested in a sparc port, as well.,
[17:40] <slytherin> I can chase powerpc to see if it works.
[17:40] <persia> slytherin: That'd be great.
[17:40] <robilad> cool, thanks, slytherin
[17:40] <persia> Any volunteers to chase sparc?
[17:40] <doko> persia: why?
[17:41] <doko> slytherin: that would require to port hotspot to powerpc
[17:41] <persia> doko: You said it wasn't supported.  Don't we need someone to help watch it if it's not clean?
[17:42] <doko> persia: well, yes, you could look at our sparc build logs ;)
[17:42] <slytherin> doko: I will be at least able to test it.
[17:42] <persia> doko: My sparc is 40MHz, but I'll look :)
[17:42] <robilad> no plans in openjdk so far to write support for other cpus, but whoever wants to have a go at ia64, ppc, hppa, etc. is welcome.
[17:43] <robilad> there is a community porting project to mips64-linux, but that's not relevant to ubuntu.
[17:43] <dholbach> robilad, yuriy: are you sufficiently happy with the discussion/answers?
[17:43] <robilad> basicall, if you want to contribute to a port, get in touch with me, and I'll help you get set up.
[17:43] <robilad> yes.
[17:43] <dherron> well, "no plans..so far" is just that nobody has proposed a porting project for powerpc.  I'm sure if someone wanted to do it we'd accept it
[17:44] <robilad> yep, like dherron said
[17:44] <dholbach> Great, let's move on then
[17:44] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Debian/Ubuntu Java packaging coop
[17:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  Debian/Ubuntu Java packaging coop
[17:44] <robilad> right, a lot of what we're going to be doing is going to be relevant to debian's java project
[17:44] <robilad> so I was wondering how the collaboration works atm, and what we could do better
[17:45] <dholbach> I'm sure doko can tell us about this :)
[17:45]  * robilad gives doko the floor
[17:46] <doko> there are not a lot of active people in the debian java team, so best thing would be to package stuff that is not yet packaged ourself and notice debian about it (like needed dependencies)
[17:47] <robilad> not a lot means basically doko, man-di, paulcager? ;)
[17:47] <dholbach> I guess that a few differences will always be in the Ubuntu and Debian Java teams: different release schedules and triaging Ubuntu / Debian Java bugs
[17:48] <persia> For notification of new packages, should we be sending notice to debian-java@lists.debian.org?
[17:48] <doko> so it comes down to the task that people start packaging new packages
[17:49] <robilad> yeah, and I like doko's suggestion to focus on growing the package base - persia, I think that's where the java packaging session discussed would be a great way to introduce new people.
[17:49] <robilad> discussed on #ubuntu-java before
[17:49] <persia> robilad: Let's hope MOTU School can find an instructor for it :)
[17:50] <dholbach> a list of missing packages and some reference packages would help too
[17:50] <robilad> for those that haven't been on #ubuntu-java, it's listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Requests
[17:50] <robilad> yeah - there is an interesting script from tinuviel
[17:51] <robilad> that basically compares what's packaged in which version in which distribution
[17:51] <robilad> http://sparcs.kaist.ac.kr/~tinuviel/package/list.cgi?name=java
[17:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://sparcs.kaist.ac.kr/~tinuviel/package/list.cgi?name=java
[17:51] <james_w> we could have a session this month if anyone would be willing to present it
[17:52] <dholbach> if some of you preferred to run it as a dynamic Java duo, that'd be fine too
[17:52] <james_w> indeed
[17:53] <slytherin> I can be assistant (not primary resource) for MOTU School java session.
[17:53] <dholbach> slytherin: you ROCK - that'd be great
[17:54] <persia> Can we jump quickly to the meta package discussion before doko has to go?
[17:54] <dholbach> persia: good idea
[17:54] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Explanation in brief by doko about various meta packages related to java will be good.
[17:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  Explanation in brief by doko about various meta packages related to java will be good.
[17:55] <thielmann> I have to leave now. Thanks for the really great discussion here an in #ubuntu-java before. I would be happy to get my hands on packaging Java applications. Bye.
[17:55] <doko> there's not much to say. there are packages default-jre-headless, default-jre, default-jdk and default-jdk-builddep which should be used for packaging
[17:55] <doko> dependencies on explicit packages should be avoided
[17:55] <dholbach> slytherin: is this what you wanted to know?
[17:56] <slytherin> How about what is difference betweek compiler, runtime and virtual-machine
[17:56] <slytherin> And of course sdk
[17:56] <dherron> doko, something openjdk hackers would appreciate is a virtual package to pull in all openjdk build dependencies
[17:57] <slytherin> My bas I should have said meta packages and virtual packages.
[17:57] <dholbach> dherron: sudo apt-get build-dep openjdk?
[17:57] <dherron> dholbach, that would work for the openjdk instance packaged by/for ubuntu, I'm talking about people taking our upstream tarball for hacking
[17:57] <doko> sudo apt-get build-dep openjdk-6
[17:58] <doko> dherron: that would be a subset?
[17:58] <dherron> oh, wait, never mind, so long as the build dependencies were right it wouldn't matter
[17:58] <dholbach> great
[17:58] <dholbach> slytherin:  which virtual packages and which other meta packages?
[17:59]  * nixternal hugs dholbach 
[17:59] <nixternal> mmm java
[17:59] <slytherin> dholbach: the one I said above. *-sdk, *-compiler, *-runtime, *-virtual-machine etc.
[18:00] <doko> *-virtual-machine is obsolete
[18:00] <doko> the one's to be used are *-sdk, *-runtime and *-runtime-headless
[18:01] <persia> Not *-compiler either?
[18:01] <dherron> -compiler == -sdk, I'd think
[18:02] <persia> dherron: Right, but we need to be careful to use the right names, as the old ones (e.g. -virtual-machine) will go away, causing FTBFS.
[18:02] <slytherin> so what is difference between compiler and sdk?
[18:04] <doko> no, at least no recent -sdk provides -compiler
[18:05] <dholbach> ok... slytherin: all questions resolved?
[18:05] <doko> I have to leave now
[18:05] <robilad> thanks for your time and help, doko!
[18:05] <dholbach> doko: have a great evening
[18:05] <dholbach> and thanks a lot
[18:05] <lenards> doko: thanks
[18:05] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Packaging Maven2 fixes from Fedora
[18:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging Maven2 fixes from Fedora
[18:06] <dholbach> another topic for robilad
[18:06] <robilad> yeah, i just keep coming up with those things
[18:06] <dholbach> hehe
[18:06]  * dholbach hugs robilad
[18:06]  * robilad hugs dholbach back 
[18:06] <robilad> wehere was I
[18:06] <robilad> right
[18:06] <doko> stop hugging, start working ;-p
[18:07] <robilad> beside a great runtime, one of the major things for the J2EE support seems to be to package maven2 in a debian/ubuntu friendly wAY
[18:07] <robilad> maven is a build tool used by many java projects instead of ant
[18:08] <robilad> in particular because it supports semi-automatic fetching of build time dependencies from a maven JAR repository
[18:08] <Koon> and semi-automatic fetching of "plug-ins" that add functionality
[18:08] <persia> I'll note that for python, we mostly disable ezsetup and access to the cheeseshop.
[18:08] <robilad> so regular java devs often like that apt-get-ish functionality
[18:09] <robilad> but as persia says, such funcitonality is not really desirable when you try to build a distirbution from scratch
[18:09] <persia> We'd probably want to do a similar thing for maven, as otherwise we have a hard time ensuring stability of stable releases.
[18:09] <robilad> since you want to be able to control all the ingredients going into a package
[18:09] <dholbach> absolutely
[18:09] <robilad> to makesure that they are free software, for example.
[18:09] <robilad> etc.
[18:09] <dholbach> does anybody know maven upstreams who might give pointers or even have answers?
[18:09] <persia> Or just make sure they have patches that fix know security issues without changing user experience.
[18:09] <robilad> so, the fedora team faced the same challenge with integrateing maven into fedora 8
[18:10] <robilad> and they did integrate it
[18:10] <robilad> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f8/en_US/sn-Java.html
[18:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f8/en_US/sn-Java.html
[18:10] <robilad> 15.6
[18:10] <robilad> by basically providing a distribution-friendly patchset for maven2
[18:11] <robilad> which takes care of providing, next to the regular mvn command that maven users want to see behave as they expect it to behave
[18:11] <dholbach> it'd be great if somebody looked into it and see how applicable those patches are for the Debian/Ubuntu world
[18:11] <robilad> a mvn-jpp command, which basically enables some 'work better in offline mode with packaged JARs in /usr/share/java' switches in the packaged mvn command
[18:12] <persia> robilad: So the user experience is similar, but the packages are actually pulled from the distro repo rahter than the master MVN repo?
[18:12] <robilad> yes, for package builds using mvn-jpp
[18:12] <robilad> while users running their own builds per hand, don't have to care about the requirements of the distribution
[18:12] <Koon> robilad: any idea how they workarounded the maven2 plugin system ? They packaged most of the classic plugins ?
[18:13] <persia> Ah, so we can do package builds with mvn-jpp offline (as we do all builds offline), but users still have regular mvn if they wish.  That sounds interesting.
[18:13] <robilad> there is one interesting thing they do for fedora - they provide a mapping file with packages that mpas dependencies from maven to the local repo
[18:13] <robilad> for mvn-jpp
[18:13] <robilad> I don't know how they deal with plugins, unfortunately.
[18:14] <robilad> but as dholbach says, I think this would be a very useful patch to look at
[18:14] <dholbach> neat-o - let's see if somebody found the time for it until next time
[18:14] <robilad> readme for mvn-jpp is at http://www.jpackage.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/rpms/free/maven2/maven2-jpp-readme.html?revision=1.1.2.1&root=jpackage&view=markup&pathrev=JPACKAGE-1_7
[18:14] <persia> Koon: You mentioned maven in the intrepid targets topic.  Are you up for investigating this?
[18:15] <Koon> persia: I'll have a look
[18:16] <persia> Koon: That'd be great.  Thanks.
[18:16] <dholbach> awesome
[18:16] <dholbach> yuriy wanted to talk about "Java desktop integration"
[18:16] <dholbach> [TOPIC] Java desktop integration (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sun-java6/+bug/99445)
[18:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Java desktop integration (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sun-java6/+bug/99445)
[18:17] <dherron> I read that bug a couple days ago... is it asking for Qt peers to go along with GTK peers?  I wasn't sure
[18:17] <persia> yuriy: I was looking at that when you added the topic, but the bug description took me in a recursive loop: how does one work around that?
[18:18] <Koon> got to go, see you all at next meeting
[18:18] <dholbach> good night Koon - thanks for all
[18:19] <dholbach> yuriy: still here?
[18:19] <yuriy> persia: I haven't really looked into that bug, but I wanted to put the desktop integration stuff on people's radar
[18:20] <yuriy> so issues include making sure swing apps look nice for both GTK and Qt
[18:20] <persia> yuriy: The problem is that the link to the "solution" links to the bug page, so there's no clear target :(
[18:21] <yuriy> currently I think they all get painted with GTK, and with gtk-qt-engine under KDE, and look quite ugly and disfunctional in some cases
[18:21] <yuriy> persia: yeah, I don't know what's going on there, would need to track down the actual "solution"...
[18:21] <yuriy> other desktop integration type stuff is is making sure that the plug-in works when it is installed
[18:22] <dherron> yuriy, that's what I meant by GTK peers.. there isn't Qt peers in our code
[18:22] <dholbach> It'd be good to have this discussion in the bug report to make it clearer
[18:22] <dherron> It's an upstream issue, especially as the java-6 (not openjdk-6) packages are under a binary license
[18:22] <yuriy> dholbach, dholbach: well, I just wanted to get this stuff on the roadmap
[18:22] <persia> yuriy: I think it's a great idea, but needs a patch.  Could you hunt down the information about whether there are Qt peers, or it's some sort of Qt theme for the Gtk peers, or what not?
[18:23] <yuriy> dherron: well, concerning openjdk, I don't expect anything to be done for java-5/6 at this point
[18:23] <persia> Once we have some idea of what it takes, we can probably take a decision as to whether it's something we can do, or something where we need to help the patch author and upstream find a solution, which we can then adopt.
[18:24] <dherron> yuriy, sure, but the bug in question is against sun-java6 not openjdk-6 ... in openjdk-6 it's possible to fix because that's open source
[18:25] <dholbach> ok... shall we move on?
[18:25] <yuriy> k
[18:25] <chandru_in> is there any possibility
[18:25] <dholbach> We still have Eclipse on the agenda - is Flavio here?
[18:26] <dholbach> chandru_in: can you elaborate?
[18:26] <chandru_in> for including gnome-java bindings by default?
[18:26] <chandru_in> QtJambi on kubuntu as a counterpart
[18:26] <persia> chandru_in: For "include by default", we need an application that depends on them.
[18:26] <dholbach> chandru_in: would you be willing to drive that initiative? figure out what it'd take? what the benefits are and present that on  ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com ?
[18:27] <dholbach> I'd imagine it'd take a bit of discussion
[18:27] <chandru_in> sure
[18:27] <dholbach> excelltn
[18:27] <ScottK> Please do not install another language or bindings for it because it's neat.
[18:27] <ScottK> Just do it if you need it for an application (as persia said).
[18:27] <dholbach> that's why I said: discussion on ubuntu-devel@
[18:27] <yuriy> chandru_in: why have them by default? they are available in the repositories and apps can depend on them if they need it
[18:27] <dholbach> as Flavio is not here, I suggest we keep the agenda item on the wiki page
[18:28] <robilad> ack
[18:28] <persia> We can discuss Eclipse next week.
[18:28] <robilad> 15 UTC, #ubuntu-meeting
[18:28] <dholbach> OK, is there any other business? We can just discuss everything else in #ubuntu-java I'd say
[18:28] <persia> robilad: You got confirmation from man-di?
[18:28] <robilad> not yet, unfortunately
[18:28]  * dholbach updates https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sun-java6/+bug/99445
[18:29] <lenards> persia, robilad, dholbach: thanks
[18:29] <persia> robilad: Let's wait on that before definitively setting the meeting time.
[18:29] <robilad> ok.
[18:29] <persia> dholbach: Thanks for hosting the meeting.
[18:29] <dholbach> OK... thanks a lot everybody - I'm really excited about this team, so I hope you all hang out on #ubuntu-java and help to make the team ROCK
[18:29] <dholbach> thanks everybody for your interest
[18:29] <dholbach> meeting adjourned
[18:30] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[18:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:31.
[18:31]  * dholbach will do the minutes
[18:31] <robilad> thanks, dholbach!
[21:16] <CaseySchaufler> No security meeting then?
[21:17] <kees> CaseySchaufler: oop! sorry, I'm just very very late.  :)
[21:17] <CaseySchaufler> Summer is setting in.
[21:18] <kees> I know propagandist said he wouldn't be able to make it today.
[21:18] <kees> CaseySchaufler: I haven't had a chance to read the wiki page yet.
[21:18] <CaseySchaufler> Should we defer then?
[21:20] <kees> possibly, I will read the wiki, and we can go from there.  in two weeks?
[21:20] <CaseySchaufler> I should be OK with that.
[21:21] <CaseySchaufler> email if you have questions in the mean time.
[21:21] <kees> okay, cool.  I'll send out an announcement for it a bit ahead of time then.  Thanks for showing up, sorry it's been cancelled.  :P
[21:21] <CaseySchaufler> No worries.
[21:21] <kees> :)
[21:21] <CaseySchaufler> Ta.
[21:28] <arun_> are we having the ubuntu java meeting
[21:29] <stgraber> arun_: that was 4 hours ago
[21:29] <arun_> Damn...I got the time zone wrong
[21:29] <arun_> is there a way i can get the transcript?
[21:30] <stgraber> !logs
[21:30] <arun_> ubottu bot just gave me the links
[21:31] <arun_>  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
[23:17] <JoshuaP0x> hello
[23:19] <JoshuaP0x> i'm trying to get visual effects working but i get a "Desktop effects can not be enabled"
[23:19] <JoshuaP0x> anyone run into this before?
[23:19] <awalton_1> JoshuaP0x, this room is mainly used for meetings, user support is in #ubuntu.
[23:20] <JoshuaP0x> thanks
[23:20] <JoshuaP0x> meetings for what?