[07:24] <pwnguin> who is troy james sobotka?
[21:23] <kwwii> re
[22:41] <Salane> Hey
[22:45] <Salane> Are you there kwwii?
[22:52] <kwwii> Salane: hi
[22:52] <Salane> Hey
[22:52] <Salane> How are you?
[22:52] <kwwii> Salane: good, tired a bit but doing ok so far :-) and you?
[22:53] <Salane> I am very tired- been working in a very hot lab for the past 10 hours :(
[22:53] <Salane> But ok everall :D
[22:53] <Salane> So how do you think the wiki's have turned out?
[22:54] <Salane> At least the font wiki.
[22:54] <kwwii> hehe, while in college I worked part time in the evenings in a small chemical lab...I know the feeling
[22:54] <Salane> Oh yeah- similar experience then.
[22:55] <kwwii> I think that the wiki, especially the fonts stuff, has turned out great
[22:56] <Salane> We need a better push for icons - and perhaps some better guidelines. People on the forum thought they were too restricting.
[22:56] <kwwii> yes, people will tend to say that, but in the end, it is very restricting
[22:56] <Salane> I have messed around with it, and I think the human icons would look so much better just with different colors and less glose.
[22:56] <Salane> gloss*
[22:57] <kwwii> any group of people working on artwork are going to find some things restricting, making one style and working forwards can be very hard at times
[22:57] <kwwii> even more so when none of the actual artists have the final decision
[22:57] <Salane> Yes - very understandable
[22:58] <kwwii> I've worked with Mark for a couple of years now and I have a pretty good feeling of what he likes in the current artwork and what he does not
[22:58] <kwwii> so as far as the folder goes I think he sees that as one of the cornerstones of the theme
[22:58] <Salane> Did you read his interview?
[22:58] <Salane> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=852363
[22:59] <Salane> It really is - that is why it needs to be updated, but still retain the human look and feel.
[22:59] <kwwii> nope, let me check that out
[22:59] <kwwii> I think that the hard gloss line on the top could be played with a bit, perhaps as well as the general form
[23:00] <kwwii> but I know that the subtle radial gradient starting at a yellowish tone and going to orange from the bottom of the folder is a must
[23:00] <Salane> Do you know who created the originals
[23:00] <kwwii> he really likes that effect
[23:00] <kwwii> yes, an artist we paid at iconfactory
[23:00] <Salane> I dont know about yellow- I think a good brown/orange looks amazing
[23:01] <kwwii> yeah, I like brown too :-)
[23:01] <Salane> I have a Panel image I created that kind of represents a good direction, IMO, for the color overall
[23:01] <Salane> I will send it your email
[23:02] <kwwii> in the end, I work directly under him so I have two opinions: my personal opinion and my proffesional opinion :-)
[23:02] <kwwii> cool, I suggest that we keep up the discussion and hope that some artists bite
[23:03] <kwwii> until now the lack of artists is what has prevented us from moving forward
[23:03] <Salane> Ok so I think we are moving well with fonts - we need to really make a decision about what to do for icons.
[23:03] <Salane> Yes
[23:03] <Salane> Now I believe its the lack of time and programmers
[23:03] <kwwii> the art team needs to show that they can handle a bigger project before they will be taken seriously, I think
[23:03] <Salane> It isnt very cohesive.
[23:03] <Salane> The art team.
[23:06] <kwwii> hehe, you think?
[23:06] <Salane> haha
[23:06] <Salane> Have you taken a look at the panel i sent you?
[23:08] <kwwii> just got it...I am not sure if it is possible to use semi-transparent pics without any bugs
[23:08] <kwwii> but the general tone is nice
[23:09] <kwwii> although you should know now that anyone who supports brown is going to get a lot of comments about feces and such
[23:09] <Salane> Well I didnt mean to do that! I jsut noticed it was transparent. I can change that.
[23:09] <Salane> Well it is slightly orange, and I can make it more orange...
[23:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: ping? do you know if it is possible to use semi-transparent pngs in the panel?
[23:10] <kwwii> ping about pngs
[23:10] <Salane> It relaly comes down to what is wanted by Mark,and what the users want...
[23:10] <kwwii> the funny thing about orange/brown/red is that they all overlap and the human sees them strangely
[23:10] <Salane> Good point
[23:10] <kwwii> overall it is a sucky color range to have to use homogenous colors
[23:11] <Salane> Should we then procede with more orange, more brown, or a mix? Or something different?
[23:11] <kwwii> I think that we should see what people want
[23:11] <kwwii> I have a palette
[23:11] <kwwii> which I guess I could finally put online
[23:11] <kwwii> erm, if I haven't already
[23:12] <Salane> I have seen it- but it has a wide range of colors.
[23:12] <Salane> I remeber doing a poll one time on the forums
[23:13] <Salane> it was very evenly split among the color choices
[23:13] <Salane> Oh is this a new palette?
[23:14] <kwwii> well, we started making a palette during hardy (which is on the wiki in incoming/Hardy or such)
[23:14] <kwwii> and I actually finished it and it has been approved
[23:14] <kwwii> so...I should move the hardyDesign page somewhere else
[23:14] <Salane> Is it the one that was sent out over the email a few weeks ago?
[23:14] <kwwii> rename it and revamp it
[23:14] <kwwii> yeah, I think I sent it to the list
[23:14] <kwwii> it would have been in the form of pdf, as well as installable palettes
[23:15] <Salane> Yes I have it
[23:15] <Salane> and used it to make this gradient
[23:15] <Salane> its a brown gradient with a transparent orange layer on top
[23:15] <Salane> but I think i made the gradient transparent too
[23:16] <kwwii> the panel themeing will depend heavily on the gtk and metacity theme
[23:17] <Salane> true- I jsut made it as a display of good colors. I think though that while the panels could look like that, that the metacity and gtk controls in the theme should be much lighter -
[23:19] <kwwii> yes, we will use a light control and windeco theme in any case
[23:19] <Salane> Good
[23:20] <Salane> But I think we need to avoid grey at all costs.
[23:20] <_MMA_> re: transparent panel. The "semi" part will get the color of the desktop behind it. So yes. Its possiable.
[23:20] <kwwii> _MMA_: even with the system tray?
[23:21] <_MMA_> Oh sorry. Lemmie check that, and one more thing out.
[23:21] <kwwii> Salane: in the end, the colors are not totally grey...the have a slight amount of saturation
[23:22] <Salane> I think though that since both Windows and OS X use it- and it doesnt really look that good- that we could at least do white or a very light mocha color.
[23:23] <kwwii> yes, that was supposed to one part of using a dark theme, to break people's ideas that there is a given color for all themes
[23:24] <kwwii> so from the dark theme it will be easy to switch to a lighter, more saturated theme I think
[23:25] <_MMA_> kwwii: Yes. It works through the system tray. But this is setting the panel image through the panel properties. Let me see what happens when its done through the theme. (the only way this *should* be done.)
[23:25] <kwwii> Salane: btw, I am pretty much always logged into irc on my server so if you register your nick you can /query or /msg me and i will get the message eventually
[23:25] <Salane> I see- I am using a web site to use this.
[23:25] <kwwii> lol
[23:25] <kwwii> meebo?
[23:26] <Salane> Mibbiit
[23:26] <_MMA_> Salane: Use Pidgin or xchat.
[23:26] <Salane> Oh yeah I forgot pidgin could do it
[23:26] <Salane> give me a second...
[23:26] <kwwii> Salane: btw, that is an interesting name, where does it come from?
[23:27] <kwwii> sounds french but I am not a french name expert
[23:27] <Salane> I am not sure. I was named after my biological father. My grandmother on that side thought is was Alaskan American, but I have not been able to find a source.
[23:27] <Salane> My middle name however, is French.
[23:28] <Salane> How do I join this channel in Pidgen? I used to know how but I am lost :(
[23:29] <kwwii> type /join #ubuntu-artwork
[23:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: When a panel image is used through the theme, it takes on the UI color. Not the color (or transparency) I suspect someone would be after.
[23:29] <kwwii> erm, not sure in pidgin
[23:29] <Salan1> There you go.
[23:29] <Salan1> I am now in Pidgen.
[23:29] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, in any case it might make things hard when you want to change color and such
[23:30] <kwwii> Salan1: cool :-)
[23:30] <Salan1> What would make things hard?
[23:30] <kwwii> if I changed to another color it would effect the brown/orange color
[23:30] <_MMA_> Salan1: Type: /nick Salane
[23:30] <kwwii> so you will always be playing a catch up game of what color you really want
[23:31] <Salane> Thanks
[23:31] <kwwii> and remember that the color for the panel is defined in the gtkrc and might be a mix of other colors
[23:31] <Salane> I have seen themes with different panel colors than the Window color
[23:31] <kwwii> sure, that is very normal and nothing wrong with that
[23:31] <kwwii> but if a user sets a color themselves it will effect the panel as well
[23:32] <Salane> Oh true.
[23:32] <kwwii> in a way that they cannot control
[23:33] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well, what it means is when you set the panel "in-theme", the part you would want transparent takes on the UI color. Where-as setting it through the panel properties actually lets the image be transparent and fades into the desktop.
[23:33] <Salane> Well the panel doesnt have to be transparent.
[23:33] <_MMA_> But the latter sets the panel image no matter what theme the user chooses.
[23:33] <kwwii> _MMA_: I am talking about when you set a theme and then change the colors
[23:34] <Salane> Ok
[23:34] <kwwii> I have nothing against the panel being transparent, really, I just want to reduce the amount of error when a user selects colors
[23:34] <Salane> I understand now./
[23:34] <kwwii> then again, maybe I am wrong :p
[23:35] <Salane> Well perhaps the theme will look so good, no one will want to! :D
[23:35] <kwwii> sure, but I wonder if _MMA_ agrees with me :/
[23:35] <kwwii> lol, yeah, we can all hope that the forum sings praises of us
[23:35] <_MMA_> kwwii: No. Your still missing what I said. :P The color picker does switch the colors behind the panel image though.
[23:36] <_MMA_> Salane: It's not about pleasing users. Its about wowing Mark. ;)
[23:36] <Salane> Well that is doable. I made a friend on deviant art who is amazing at Gnome themes. he can do things I only dreamed of before.
[23:36] <Salane> I will invite him to join the artwork team.
[23:37] <Salane> Well lets go back to icons.
[23:37] <kwwii> hehe, he pays me to take care of that
[23:37] <Salane> We need to make some decisions.
[23:37] <kwwii> erm, mark I meant
[23:37] <Salane> kwwii: Nice
[23:37] <kwwii> that and a thousand other things
[23:38] <kwwii> we should also look into harnessing the deviantart crowd
[23:38] <kwwii> there is a brainstorm thingy for that
[23:38] <Salane> True
[23:38] <Salane> there area lot of good themes out there
[23:39] <kwwii> sure, they just have to say "ubuntu" to the right person :-)
[23:39] <_MMA_> kwwii: And nothing has stopped anyone from grabbing them. People like to talk and not do.
[23:39] <Salane> Well lets develop a course of action.
[23:39] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, but the color you pick would show through the transparency in a different way than you expect
[23:39] <Salane> I think our font will be taken care of one way or the other.
[23:40] <kwwii> I think that keeping up the work on the wiki and mailing list is the best idea
[23:40] <kwwii> get people moving on this stuff and keep them going down the same path
[23:40] <Salane> Well we need more of a push
[23:40] <Salane> yeah
[23:40] <kwwii> also, we could do more with pusing the theme-team stuff
[23:40] <Salane> I jsut convinced the bass player in my band to try out Ubuntu :D
[23:40] <_MMA_> Salane: Push from who?
[23:41] <Salane> A push from us to the art team, the users, and other Gnome users.
[23:41] <kwwii> more a push from us and other interested artists than anything else
[23:41] <Salane> We need to basically get the word out.
[23:42] <kwwii> and we need to keep up the interest and contact
[23:42] <_MMA_> Salane: Being new here, I guess you dont realize, there's not much of a team here. Most of the people that are active have *much* to do. ;) We need new blood to make that push. Is that you?
[23:42] <Salane> I have time to push. Very soon I will have no classes, very little work, and a lot of time.
[23:43] <kwwii> hehe, done with college or just summer break?
[23:44] <Salane> I am very good with coordinating people. In high school I put together an presentation that I took to local businesses and sold the advertisements  - and raised over 15,000 Euros in the process.
[23:44] <Salane> I am taking Engineering Calc 2 during the summer.
[23:45] <_MMA_> Salane: I hope you are good at herding cats. :)
[23:45] <Salane> Haha
[23:45] <Salane> I love my cat- he is Orange and White. Reminds me of Ubuntu when I see him :D
[23:46] <kwwii> hehe, Engineering Calc2 - been there, done that :-)
[23:46] <kwwii> I studied civil engineering
[23:46] <Salane> Aerospace here!
[23:47] <kwwii> cool :-)
[23:47] <kwwii> which year are you in?
[23:47] <Salane> I will be a sophomore - second year
[23:47] <kwwii> sophomore I would guess
[23:48] <kwwii> hehe, yeah
[23:48] <kwwii> otherwise you would be really smart or really dumb :-)
[23:48] <Salane> haha
[23:49] <Salane> I made a 98% on the midterm. I think I have it good :D
[23:49] <kwwii> then again, when I first started college I studied chinese and flunked college algebra 5 times
[23:49] <Salane> Haha wow
[23:49] <kwwii> on a music scholarship
[23:49] <_MMA_> I want to say, re: font chat that we not disregard what Troy said for the sake of some people saying "this looks pretty". <insert font here> needs to be viewed vs. what we have at all levels.
[23:49] <Salane> Well then I feel inclined to admit that this is the second time taking this class.
[23:50] <Salane> lol
[23:50] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, definitely, in any case it needs to be checked by someone who knows more about internationalization
[23:50] <Salane> I think any of the three fonts on the wiki will be great choices. I am not opposed to any of them.
[23:50] <_MMA_> kwwii: Not just that. Troy had *damn* good points on kerning and such as well.
[23:51] <Salane> I think he is right. It does look a bit better.
[23:51] <Salane> Its so close it would depend from computer to computer however.
[23:51] <_MMA_> Salane: But good choices why? Aesthetics are not enough.
[23:51] <Salane> Well with me, the more readable a font is, the better it looks.
[23:52] <Salane> That and it must be fully international.
[23:52] <_MMA_> Salane: "He" who? Troy thought it was a terrible choice.
[23:53] <_MMA_> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-droid-isnt-answer.html
[23:53] <kwwii> getting a good font is really hard
[23:53] <Salane> Sorry I thought you were referring to something else.
[23:53] <kwwii> it takes a lot more than you'd think
[23:54] <_MMA_> Yep. More than "I like this.".
[23:54] <Salane> i was talking about the guy who pointed out how Deja Vu might be a little better with the same hinting settings.
[23:54] <kwwii> oh man, troy goes off again
[23:54] <_MMA_> Salane: Yes. Studio has switched to them and I believe others use them as well.
[23:54] <kwwii> the first thing he does is bitch about ubuntu artwork and then goes on to complian about the font that we probably won't be able to use due to legal issues
[23:54] <Salane> haha
[23:55] <_MMA_> kwwii: What else is new? :P *But* it might be a good choice for mobile.
[23:55] <Salane> I cant believe something I pushed for is on a blog. lol
[23:55] <_MMA_> Salane: It's not hard trust me.
[23:56] <Salane> Why this guy is
[23:56] <Salane> I dont knwo what to say
[23:57] <Salane> I have been using Droid and the other choice for a bit now
[23:57] <Salane> and I actually changed my fonts in other OS's because I liked them so much./
[23:57] <_MMA_> Like I said, there are other considerations.
[23:58] <kwwii> heck, in the screenshots he shows I still think that the droid font is more readable, whether the over-all color is the same or not
[23:58] <kwwii> anyway
[23:58] <kwwii> there are other considerations
[23:58] <Salane> I think so too.
[23:58] <_MMA_> :P
[23:58] <Salane> So what are the considerations?
[23:58] <kwwii> and droid is made for a small screen
[23:58] <kwwii> and I do have a small screen :-)
[23:58] <kwwii> and a really big one that is normally hooked up to my mac these days :p
[23:58] <Salane> Aesthetics, readability, and international compliance right?
[23:58] <_MMA_> kwwii: I agree more with changing the pt size than font really.
[23:59] <kwwii> if nothing else we will keep dejavu as it has proven to be very good
[23:59] <kwwii> _MMA_: from 10 to 9 you mean?
[23:59] <_MMA_> Yeah
[23:59] <kwwii> yes, me too
[23:59] <kwwii> I use 8 myself
[23:59] <kwwii> on my 10" thinkpad
[23:59] <_MMA_> I as well on the laptop.