tjaaltonarchive admins available? xserver-xorg-video-cyrix can be removed from the archive. it doesn't build against the latest xserver, and it's deprecated anyway. the geode driver will/does replace it00:08
gnomefreaktjaalton: ah i guess you saw the issue already00:18
tjaaltongnomefreak: about cyrix?00:19
tjaaltonvia should also be synced00:19
gnomefreaktjaalton: no about X in general it looks like xserver-xorg-core is broken00:19
* RAOF thinks gnomefreak is talking about "the {video,input} ABI changed, so everything's uninstallable".00:19
gnomefreakmost likely respinning is all it is00:19
gnomefreakABI changed?00:20
gnomefreakuninstallable hell it wants to remove everything00:20
tjaaltoninput and video ABI00:20
tjaaltondon't force it00:20
gnomefreaki dont00:20
tjaaltonjust wait until it allows an upgrade00:20
RAOFWait until the world's been rebuilt00:20
gnomefreakdist-upgrade wanted to remove it00:20
tjaaltonhm, it shouldn't upgrade00:20
tjaaltonok, well don't :)00:21
gnomefreaki know00:21
gnomefreakjust wanted to make sure you were aware of it00:21
tjaaltonof course00:21
tjaaltonwas just waiting that all the archs had the latest xorg-server00:21
tjaalton(and a bit occupied during the evening, but..)00:21
gnomefreakno rush atleast for me00:22
* gnomefreak has alot fo work i can do as long as i dont use dist-* ill be fine00:22
* TheMuso thinks staying on hardy is a safer bet. :p00:25
RAOFgnomefreak: Well, nouveau should now be installable, at least :)00:25
gnomefreakTheMuso: stable is always safer just not so much fun ;)00:26
calcdoes anyone know if there is a good debian/ubuntu mirroring program that acts as a proxy (that actually works)00:42
* calc is considering writing one in his spare time00:43
RAOFYou mean an apt-proxy?00:43
calcRAOF: i guess00:43
calcRAOF: iirc i used apt-proxy before but maybe not00:43
calci know approx doesn't work very well00:43
calcit seems to nuke the archive for unknown reasons00:43
RAOFThere are a couple; apt-proxy, apt-something-else, apt-zeroconf.  But I'm using squid.00:43
calcok i'll have a look i have plenty of room for a full mirror but would rather it pull stuff as needed00:45
calcbut in the past the ones i have used seemed to not work correctly :\00:46
RAOFapt-zeroconf (when it works) is pretty cool at that.00:47
calcwhat package is it in? i don't see it in hardy00:47
RAOFIt's not yet packaged, at least officially.00:47
calchmm i think i have used apt-cacher and approx before00:48
calcapprox definitely didn't seem to work right00:48
RAOFI've used apt-proxy; that seemed to work pretty well.00:48
calci'll give apt-proxy a try00:48
RAOFapt-zeroconf, if you're interested: http://trac.phidev.org/trac/wiki/AptZeroconf00:49
calcthanks for the tips :)00:53
calcthe desc on the apt-proxy page leads me to believe it should work well and also why i thought it didn't (i think i tried it last back when it was unstable)00:53
RAOFapt-zeroconf would be cool, particularly for laptops, if it were a bit more stable.00:54
* TheMuso uses apt-mirror, with a post mirror script to mirror other bits.00:55
TheMusoSince I mirror 3 architectures, and have several boxes that need to download updates every day.00:57
TheMusoYow! Xorg flud! >)01:00
RAOFTheMuso: As in "broken" or as in "every single Xorg package has been rebuilt"? :)01:01
TheMusoRAOF: The flood of xorg related packages on intrepid-changes. I know why, but still, thats a lot.01:05
kirklandslangasek: ping01:13
kantorhi, I have renamed all the SCSI subsystem drivers (so Linux can't load them) and all the SCSI subsystem drivers are compiled as modules, but strangely the SG_GET_VERSION_NUM ioctl returns the sg driver version, how is that possible if the sg (and all the SCSI subsystem) driver was renamed and it is not loaded ??01:19
calci see one minor issue with apt-proxy already, it uses the name you put in your sources.list for its cache dir01:46
calcso if you have different names on different machines it won't all pull from the same place01:46
=== asac_ is now known as asac
TheMusocalc: Ouch.02:07
superm1slangasek, can you promote the mythbuntu alt disks to the right place now?02:47
calcit appears apt-proxy doesn't handle versions kept properly for ubuntu 'distributions'03:20
calciow it deletes them once it reaches the limit number across distributions03:20
calcgah apt-proxy has huge number of open bugs on b.d.o03:31
calcit appears no partial mirror program works as i had found out before :\03:31
=== philwyett_ is now known as philwyett
TheMusocalc: I think you might be better off investing time into debmirror or apt-mirror, however I'd recommend apt-mirror svn over the hardy package.04:00
=== saivann_ is now known as saivann
=== foka_ is now known as foka
calcTheMuso: ok05:57
TheMusocalc: You don't have to, but thats what I think works better.05:57
calcTheMuso: so is apt-mirror svn better than debmirror?05:58
* calc wishes one of them would just work properly, grr05:58
calcfrom what i recall i wrote one myself about 8 years ago but never actually uploaded it anywhere06:00
calcapt-proxy is probably a good place to work to get a partial one going properly, but seems to need lots of work06:01
TheMusocalc: heh. I find apt-mirror from svn more flexible, as your configuration file is similar to sources.list. Debmirror has to be called multiple times if you need to pull from more than one source. For example, I would have to call debmirror twice, one for ports.ubuntu.com, and one for archive.ubuntu.com.06:01
TheMusoApt-mirror on the other hand does it all at once.06:01
TheMusoHowever, apt-mirror doesn't yet support rsync.06:01
calcoh ok06:03
calcapt-proxy would really be ideal for me since i don't have much need for a full mirror but its too buggy :-\06:04
calcso i'll have to try out apt-mirror after i sleep :)06:04
calcmidnight here now, so about time for bed06:04
dholbachgood morning06:08
TheMusoHey dholbach.06:10
dholbachhi TheMuso06:10
Hobbseehey dholbach, TheMuso06:11
TheMusoHey Hobbsee.06:11
dholbachhi Hobbsee06:12
pittiGood morning07:01
dholbachhi pitti07:01
pittitjaalton: if you set proper build-deps, they will just dep-wait until it is built on ia6407:01
nxvlpitti: hi!07:02
* pitti hugs dholbach07:02
pittihey nxvl07:02
=== ara_ is now known as ara
tjaaltonpitti: I noticed that it was built on ia64 after all, so went ahead and uploaded what I had07:35
pittiah, finally07:35
pittitjaalton: thanks!07:35
tjaaltonand bryce did the rest :)07:35
* bryce waves07:37
=== doko__ is now known as doko
tseliotcjwatson: I've just sent you the email which I should have sent you yesterday. Thanks in advance :-)09:35
kantorhi, ubuntu uses the ide-scsi driver to load ATAP cd devices as SCSI devices ?09:36
Q-FUNKwhat would be the correct package for bug #245500 ?  was reassigned from"jigdo-file" but the real issue is that 8.04.1 jigdo templates point to an older version of a package that is not what ships with hardy+109:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 245500 in xserver-xorg-video-geode "Jigdo cannot build ubuntu-8.04.1-alternate-i386.iso: .jigdo file refers to missing package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24550009:39
tjaaltonwho's on archive admin duty today? I know it's not mon/wed/fri, but since alpha2 is about to release..09:40
pittitjaalton: Riddell usually09:44
pittiI did some small bits today and yesterday, but not a lot09:44
cjwatsontjaalton: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration09:44
cjwatsonQ-FUNK: no package, but it should be on the ubuntu-cdimage project09:44
cjwatsonQ-FUNK: your diagnosis is incorrect though - I'll handle it09:46
tjaaltoncjwatson, pitti: thanks, bookmarked09:46
Q-FUNKcjwatson: thanks09:47
cjwatsonQ-FUNK: incorrect> because actually the jigdo files *do* point to the version in hardy.109:48
Q-FUNKcjwatson: so why does their build fail, I'm wondering?09:48
cjwatsonQ-FUNK: because -updates has moved on from 8.04.109:49
cjwatsonQ-FUNK: see my explanatory comment in the bug09:49
Q-FUNKdoes ubuntu ever move packages from release-updates to release, after it's out?09:50
cjwatsonif we did, that would solve this problem but create others09:50
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
amitkwhere might I find the edgy release? I need to look at a package in there but can't find it at http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/09:52
persiaamitk: There are images available from http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/releases/6.10/release/09:56
persiaamitk: I don't expect that you'll find archives or updates in any sane place.09:57
pittiamitk: old-releases.ubuntu.com has both the archive and CD images09:58
pittipersia: ^09:58
persiapitti: Thanks!09:58
amitkpitti: aah great, thanks09:58
cjwatsondon't rely on that cdimage URL - it's a bug that it's still there09:58
pitti<jedi wave>Edgy is not the release you are looking for</jedi wave>09:59
jscinozany plans on backporting the newest openjdk/icetea? i hear it passes the TCK10:40
cjwatsonjscinoz: see the discussion on ubuntu-devel10:44
jscinozthanks cjwatson10:44
ograapachelogger, could you add hardy tasks before closing all the kdeedu bugs with pointers to kde4 ? we dont ship it in hardy and there is still opportunity to fix them through SRUs ...10:57
ogra(in kde3.x)10:57
apacheloggerogra: well, I am done with kdeedu10:58
* apachelogger hunts through it again10:58
ograthanks :)10:58
ograsorry for that, be we ship kdeedu3 in edubuntu so i dont wat to lose them ...10:59
apacheloggerogra: very reasonable, I didn't think about that, sorry :S11:00
ograif we ever meet, remind me to pay you a beer :)11:01
apacheloggeryay :)11:03
jscinozblarg icedtea is a huge buil11:15
cjwatsontjaalton,bryce: xserver-xorg-video-geode still seems to be built against xserver-xorg-video-2, despite the rebuild11:22
cjwatsonlooks like it's hardcoded in debian/control11:22
tjaaltoncjwatson: yep, a new version on the way to debian-experimental11:22
tjaaltonand we can sync that11:22
cjwatsonplease let me know when it's in and I'll do the sync - it's blocking live CD builds11:22
tjaaltoncjwatson: yep, will do11:23
cjwatsonI don't see it in incoming11:23
cjwatsonbut it'll be sufficient to have it uploaded, I don't have to wait for the Debian archive to process it11:24
tjaaltonI could upload a fix if that's faster11:24
cjwatsonit would be faster, certainly11:25
cjwatsonsame goes for xserver-xorg-video-imstt11:25
tjaaltonimstt should be removed11:25
tjaaltonlike cyrix11:25
cjwatsonoh, that failed to build11:25
tjaaltonthey shouldn't block anymore11:25
tjaaltonmagictouch too11:25
cjwatsonah, I was reading the wrong xserver-xorg-video-all control file11:25
tjaaltonbug 24652511:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246525 in xorg "Please remove from the archive" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24652511:26
cjwatsonblink, what a confusing bug11:26
cjwatsonit should be filed on the individual source packages11:26
tjaaltonI know, but too many..11:26
tjaaltonof those11:27
tjaaltonI'll edit the title11:27
cjwatsonhow about xserver-xorg-video-via?11:27
tjaalton*should be11:27
tjaaltonbug 24645411:28
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246454 in xserver-xorg-video-via "Please sync xserver-xorg-video-via 1:0.2.2-6 (main) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24645411:28
jcristautjaalton: via isn't pciaccessed11:30
tjaaltonjcristau: oh right..11:30
tjaaltonso remove from the archive (yay!), openchrome is used by default anyway11:30
cjwatsonerr, I just synced it11:30
tjaaltonhmm, maybe video-all needs adjusting too11:30
tjaaltonhmm :)11:31
cjwatsonshouldn't matter, it's the RHS of an |-dep11:31
jcristautjaalton: i changed -all to openchrome | via a while ago11:31
tjaaltonjcristau: yeah, that's covered but I thought that | should matter in this case11:31
cjwatsonit shouldn't11:31
tjaaltongeode uploaded11:32
cjwatsonis xserver-xorg-video-openchrome still needed on lpia? it has an outdated package there11:33
tjaaltonprobably not11:33
tjaaltonright, the current version is only built on i386/amd6411:33
pittitseliot: related to that ^ discussion, the nvidia-glx-* packages need to be rebuilt against the new X, too11:34
pittitseliot: current dist-upgrade wants to remove them11:34
tjaaltonso the lpia version can be deleted11:34
cjwatsonmm, looks intentional11:34
pittitseliot: would be nice to test them in the PPA with the new X11:35
tseliotpitti: tjaalton has suggested a way not to hardcode the server abi11:35
tjaaltonone caveat with mesa/intel.. compiz doesn't work with it, so it should be blacklisted until the mesa driver is fixed..11:35
tseliotpitti: as, for example, the intel driver does11:35
pittitseliot: hardcode in the source, or in the .debs?11:35
pittitseliot: most of the -video packages were mere rebuilds, no source changes11:35
tseliotpitti: in the source11:35
tjaaltonmvo is on leave?11:36
pittitjaalton: GUADEC11:36
tjaaltonpitti: ah right11:36
tseliotpitti: I have implemented this and all the other changes which you suggested. I'm about to reboot and try them in Intrepid 64bit11:36
pittitseliot: yay you rock!11:37
pittitseliot, tjaalton: WDYT, should we try to squeeze the new nvidia-glx-* into multiverse for alpha-2? it can hardly get much worse anyway :)11:38
* tseliot reboots11:38
cjwatsonmythtv still build-deps on libchromexvmc(pro)1 - I'll file a bug11:38
* tseliot changes his mind on rebooting11:38
tseliotpitti: does it mean that the packages should be ready today?11:38
pittitseliot: we won't put them on the CDs, at least not for alpha2, so thursday would actually suffice11:39
pittitseliot: I'm not trying to rush you, I'm just asking about what you feel what we should do :)11:39
pittisince they would make a nice paragraph in the alpha-2 release notes11:40
tjaaltonpitti: I'm ok with it11:40
tseliotpitti: if so, then it's ok. I'm working full-time on this ;)11:40
pitti * Unfuck nvidia users, thanks to Alberto Milone11:40
cjwatsontjaalton: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/mesa-swx11-source says that vnc4 and xserver-xgl still build-dep on mesa-swx11-source - can you please either file bugs or fix them?11:40
tjaaltoncjwatson: uh, ok. will do11:40
tseliotpitti: LOL11:41
pittiwell, maybe with some slight editorial changes :-P11:41
tseliotpitti: unless there's something else which you would like to tell me I'll reboot now11:42
pittitseliot: good luck!11:42
cjwatsontjaalton: I think that's all the X-related archive actions done now11:42
* tseliot finally reboots11:43
tjaaltoncjwatson: yep, should be fine now11:43
mdzpitti: I see lrm-envy seems to have been uploaded.  my desktop at the office is hungry for an nv->nvidia migration, if you let me know when it's appropriate to test jockey11:49
ogratsk ... these GL addicts ...11:49
pittimdz: is that hardy or intrepid?11:49
pittimdz: jockey doesn't control l-r-m-envy, that's envy-ng in hardy11:50
pittimdz: tseliot an I will unify envy-ng and jockey at some point, but it's not there yet in hardy :(11:50
pittiand in intrepid it's a large construction site ATM; nvidia-glx-* can be tested from PPA (they WFM), but no jockey integration yet11:51
mdzpitti: intrepid11:51
mdzpitti: would it be more useful to test what's in the PPA now or wait to test jockey integration?11:51
pittimdz: I think testing the drivers now would be very useful -- https://launchpad.net/~lrm-intrepid/+archive11:52
pittimdz: once they are in the archive, I'll have a go at modifying the jockey handlers appropriately11:52
mdztjaalton: xserver-xorg-video-all and some of its dependencies were removed for me on upgrade to intrepid.  are some of them still waiting to rebuild or something?11:52
mdzpitti: ok, I'll have a look tomorrow11:52
pittimdz: NB that they don't work with the very latest X.org yet, tseliot is currently testing the new version; should be uploaded today (to the PPA)11:53
pittimdz: if you didn't dist-upgrade to all the new drivers and xorg yet, you can use them11:53
tjaaltonmdz: yes, geode is still without the correct abiver11:53
mdzpitti: I'm at home today anyway, so don't have access to the machine atm11:53
tjaaltonmdz: should be fixed RSN11:53
pittimdz: I think for alpha-2 we should have working drivers in the archive, and shortly after that, a fixed jockey11:54
mdztjaalton: for me it was -geode, -newport, -via, -imstt and -cyrix11:54
mdz(none of which I need, so I just let it upgrade anyway)11:54
cjwatsonmdz: we were just dealing with that lot in scrollback11:56
cjwatsonhalf an hour ago or so11:56
tjaaltonmdz: hmm ok, I haven't tested dist-upgrade yet, but the latest video-all should not depend on cyrix, imstt, newport anymore11:56
tjaaltonso maybe the archive was a bit behind11:57
cjwatsonxserver-xorg-video-newport seems to have source but no binaries in the archive in intrepid, which is odd to say the least11:57
cjwatsontjaalton: the geode problem confused apt11:57
pitticurrent dist-upgrade just wants to kill -cyrix and -via here11:57
jcristaucjwatson: newport is Architecture: mips now11:57
cjwatsonok, that makes sense, I'll just leave it there11:57
cjwatsonremoving -cyrix and -via is fine11:57
cjwatsonI've demoted -via to universe to clarify11:58
sorencjwatson: I think I asked you about this before, but I coulnd't find it in my logs: How would you feel about moving openssh's host key generation into the init script instead of postinst?12:10
sorencjwatson: If we're building virtual appliances, it would be handy to be able to ship them without keys and just have them generated on first boot.12:11
cjwatsonI'd accept a patch to make it generate host keys mentioned in the configuration file if they don't exist12:16
cjwatsonI'd like to leave the existing configuration in the postinst though12:16
cjwatsoni.e. copy not move12:16
sorenOh? Why?12:16
cjwatsonreason being that it's all bound up with configuration file generation and that belongs in the postinst12:16
cjwatsonI'm not absolutely sure I can articulate it, I'm just more comfortable with it being in the postinst for most uses12:18
sorenHmm.. Ok. That seems a bit pointless to me, though. The postinst starts the daemon anyway, so in the process of postinst'ing, they'll be generated anyway.12:18
cjwatsonok, but I have to maintain this so I'd like it to be something I'm comfortable with :)12:18
sorenSure. Ok, I'll copy the code and send you a patch.12:18
cjwatsonoh, one good reason - it wouldn't surprise me in the least if a number of people used entirely custom init scripts rather than the one we ship, e.g. for starting multiple sshds12:19
pittisoren: not really -- policy-rc.d :)12:19
cjwatsonso I'd prefer the postinst to do all the configuration by default12:19
sorenpitti: I deliberately didn't mention that :)12:20
pittiI actually use that for chroots12:20
sorenpitti: I use it in ubuntu-vm-builder, too.12:20
soren...so it would actualy save me the trouble of having to have the postinst generate the key and then remove it afterwards.12:20
sorenJust another quirk to the pile.12:21
sorenit's not12:24
sorencjwatson: http://people.ubuntu.com/~soren/regen_host_keys.diff12:33
sorencjwatson: Or would you rather have it in a bug report?12:33
sorencjwatson: I don't know if the postinst changes are silly, though.12:33
sorenI left them out of the init script to not confuse regular users who wouldn't know what a postinst script is, but still would like to fiddle with the init script.12:34
cjwatsonsoren: bug report, please12:36
cjwatsonsoren: alternative would be to introduce /usr/share/ssh/config-library.sh or something12:36
* mdz reboots another system into intrepid12:37
sorencjwatson: Yeah, I thought about that. Hm.. Ok, I'll give it a shot.12:40
cjwatsonany objections to xcb-util being promoted to main? new cairo needs libxcb-render-util, and it seems fairly unobjectionable12:59
mdzthat did not go well at all13:04
mdzgdmgreeter is crashing, xfailsafedialog is crashing13:04
mdznautilus and gnome-panel are crashing13:04
mdzbut somehow gnome-terminal and xchat-gnome work13:04
tjaaltonyay, x-x-video-all is now installable13:11
mdztjaalton: do you think my mess is related to the X updates?13:14
tjaaltonmdz: I doubt it, I've been using these for a week now13:14
Mirvmdz: compiz at least doesn't work with intel with the newest mesa13:15
mdztjaalton: (gnome-terminal:8546): Gdk-CRITICAL **: get_monitor: assertion `monitor_num < screen_x11->n_monitors' failed13:15
mdzlooks incriminating13:15
tjaaltonmdz: well, gdm doesn't work here so I can't get that far now, after a reboot :)13:15
mdzMirv: running metacity here (which only barely runs)13:16
tjaaltonyes, compiz should blacklist intel for now13:16
mdzmy gdm is broken, but I think for the same reasons as everything else13:16
Mirvtjaalton: I don't see cyrix, imstt, via hitting the archive yet? synaptic would like to remove -all:s and xorg because of those13:16
tjaaltonMirv: update..13:17
mdzgnome-terminal segfaults after the above error; gnome-panel segfaults in panel_multiscreen_width13:17
mdzboth behave as if they aren't getting what they expect from the X client libraries13:17
mdzgnome-terminal somehow manages to render its initial window, but clicking any menu segfaults it13:17
mdzlikewise for metacity13:17
mdzthis is running with vesa; -intel doesn't even get this far13:18
Mirvtjaalton: yep, archive.ubuntu.com13:18
cjwatsonMirv: cyrix and imstt have been removed; via is broken but doesn't block xserver-xorg-video-all so you can let it be removed13:18
cjwatsonMirv: as of a few minutes ago -all is now fine for me13:18
Mirvcjwatson: right.13:19
Mirvlooks like the rest is just a synaptic problem when not using smart method but marking the packages manually13:22
mdztjaalton: with -intel, my X server crashes in libfb.so13:22
mdzbut there is so much wrong at this point that I'm not sure where the fault is13:24
tjaaltonmdz: yes, seems that intel fails here as well13:26
tjaaltonI'll try the previous kernel13:26
mdztjaalton: tried that, didn't help13:27
mdzI am getting some mtrr errors, don't know if they're related13:27
mdz[   60.432466] mtrr: no MTRR for e0000000,770000 found13:27
mdz[   63.459226] mtrr: base(0xe0000000) is not aligned on a size(0x770000) boundary13:27
mdzthis is back on 2.6.24-1913:27
mdzsaw the same on 2.6.2613:28
mdztjaalton: what would I need to downgrade in order to try the old -intel?13:33
tjaaltonmdz: quite a lot.. I'll try to rebuild something13:33
nxvlgood morning everyone!13:35
mdztjaalton: doesn't build with the intrepid libdrm-dev13:38
tseliotpitti: shall I make the nvidia driver conflict and replace nvidia-kernel-common now or shall I wait?13:40
tjaaltonmdz: the old intel? no, it needs a fix in configure.ac13:40
mdztjaalton: fixed that, it wants xf86mm.h13:40
mdzwhich was in the old libdrm-dev but not the new13:40
pittitseliot: if you want to use n-k-c for the bits we discussed (config, debconf, modalias lists), and having the current package installed doesn't hurt, just leave it for now13:40
mdzit builds after downgrading libdrm13:41
mdztjaalton: fails in the same way as before though13:42
mdzsegfault in libfb.so13:42
tseliotpitti: ok. BTW if your Intrepid X crashes, is because of the /etc/init.d/nvidia-glx-<VER>. I'll make sure that it's removed in the postinst, just in case13:42
tjaaltonmdz: looks like EXA is broken13:50
tjaaltonOption "AccelMethod" "XAA" seems to work13:50
tjaaltonVT's are broken though13:51
mdztjaalton: confirmed here13:53
tjaaltonI'm not sure anymore, but the xserver I had running before was a vanilla debian one13:53
mdzlet me see if that affects my segfault issues13:53
tjaaltonso a patch of ours broke it13:53
mdztjaalton: confirmed, I can login to GNOME with XAA13:54
mdztjaalton: so my segfault issues seem somehow related to vesa13:54
mdzI'll try to confirm that13:55
Mirvtjaalton: I wonder if it's the greedy patch, which is usually not endorsed/supported by upstream13:58
tjaaltonMirv: could be..13:59
tjaaltona rebuild it is14:00
tseliotpitti: another thing: which section should I set in the control files? multiverse/misc?14:07
mdztjaalton: I've confirmed GTK clients segfaulting if I run with the vesa driver, which presumably doesn't use exa, so that seems to be a separate problem14:10
tjaaltonmdz: yeah it's separate.. vesa was updated too (1.3.0 -> 2.0)14:10
mdztjaalton: on which package should I file the bug about exa?  -intel or -core?14:11
tjaaltonmdz: core, but I'll rebuild the server to see if commenting out a single patch makes it work again14:11
tjaalton15:53 < tjaalton> so a patch of ours broke it14:11
tjaalton(most likely)14:11
Mirvvesa 2.0.0 + xserver 1.5 works under virtualbox for me. but I haven't yet tried all these on real hw.14:13
mdztjaalton: filed as bug 24658114:17
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246581 in xorg-server "X server crash in libfb.so when EXA is enabled" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24658114:17
sorencjwatson: I'm about to look into creating the infamous server seed, but I'm not sure where it belongs, really. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing just separate file in ubuntu.intrepid?14:17
tjaaltonhm, it's not the greedy patch14:18
cjwatsonsoren: for now, it would be best as a separate file in ubuntu.intrepid, yes14:19
cjwatsonsoren: though I'd like it and the other *-server seeds to move out to a separate server.intrepid seed collection at some point14:19
sorencjwatson: Right. The fact that each of {ubuntu,kubuntu,xubuntu,mobile}.intrepid have a server-ship is a bit confusing to me.14:20
persia"seed collection"?  Is the term "seed pot" now deprecated?  (I'm hoping to hear "yes").14:20
=== effie is now known as keffie_jayx
Lrrrnow that's a cool name...14:21
cjwatsonI think the suggestion was "seed pod", actually14:21
sorenThat makes more sense :)14:21
persiaAh.  I misheard then.  "seed pod" makes more sense.14:21
cjwatsonI don't think I've bothered to settle on anything "officially", although I did use the term "collection" in germinate(1) recently14:21
persiaI'm willing to consider the documentation in germinate to be the official source of nomenclature for seed management.14:22
cjwatsonsoren: server-ship> I definitely regard that as a bug14:22
cjwatsonbut it's easier to fix when we can point to somewhere and say "look, this is the final home"14:22
sorencjwatson: Indeed.14:23
mdzMirv,tjaalton: vesa issue is bug 24658514:23
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246585 in xserver-xorg-video-vesa "GTK applications crashing reproducibly when using vesa" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24658514:24
tjaaltonmdz: the intel bug was not on the server after all. it's the "force greedy exa" patch on intel14:57
mdztjaalton: I've updated the bug accordingly14:59
tjaaltonmdz: oh, thanks14:59
emgenthello there15:11
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
pittitseliot: how did the testin go?15:59
tseliotpitti: I'm still testing. They seem to work well. I'll bump the release for my PPA but we'll have to remove it for Intrepid, so that it's ubuntu116:02
pittitseliot: let me know when you uploaded, I'll test it here as well16:03
tseliotpitti: sure16:03
* tseliot logs out to try the new drivers16:03
tjaaltonthe first uploaded version can be 0ubuntu2..16:03
tjaaltonno need to change IMHO16:04
tseliottjaalton: ok, let me fix the changelog then16:04
tjaaltontseliot: oh you already did it, nevermind then16:05
tseliottjaalton: I haven't uploaded anything yet16:05
geserpitti: have you an idea why many build logs have a line "sh: gcc: not found" in them?16:06
pittiugh, no; infinity, do you? ^16:07
ogragcc is overrated ... write more scripts !16:07
cjwatsonit's harmless, whatever it is16:08
pittitjaalton: hm, on my laptop I only have -intel installed, and purged all the other drivers; dist-upgrade now wants to install all of them again, and I don't seem to be able to keep just -intel; any idea what's wrong there?16:08
pittitjaalton: i. e. is -all strictly depended on now?16:08
ograby xorg, no ?16:08
geserpitti: no, just "force" the upgrade of -intel16:09
tjaaltonpitti: xserver-xorg depends on video-all16:09
ograah, its xserver-xorg ...16:09
pittiwell, I can force it, of course, but ideally it would just work?16:09
cjwatsonxserver-xorg Depends: xserver-xorg-video-all | xserver-xorg-video-2, xserver-xorg-input-all | xserver-xorg-input-216:10
tjaaltonuh no, it should be enough to have just one driver which provides video-2.916:10
cjwatsonthose need to get bumped for the new ABI version16:10
pittiah, it's -2.9 now16:10
tjaaltonhmm no, they are fine here16:10
pittitjaalton: so the metapackage's depends: just need fixing, ok16:10
pittitjaalton: want a bug for that, or shall I do it myself, or do you want to?16:11
tjaaltonpitti: it's fixed already by the latest version?16:11
geserpitti: xserver-xorg 1:7.4~0ubuntu1 has the correct one already16:11
cjwatsongeser: the Dpkg::Arch perl module (invoked by dpkg-source) uses gcc, which is where that comes from - no idea why it isn't present though16:12
cjwatsonPackage: gcc16:12
cjwatsonBuild-Essential: yes16:12
pittigeser: hm, indeed; apt-get doesn't seem to grok that16:13
cjwatsonerr, so it does, I missed that16:13
geserand the build logs also show that gcc got upgrade so it should be really there16:14
cjwatsonpitti: version of -intel?16:14
cjwatsongeser: in e.g. http://launchpadlibrarian.net/15890222/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-i386.cairo_1.6.4-6ubuntu1_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz, gcc-4.3 gets upgraded but gcc doesn't. Note that /usr/bin/gcc is in gcc not gcc-4.316:14
pitticjwatson: 2:2.3.2-2ubuntu1 (available)16:15
pitticjwatson: the depends: and provides: really do seem ok, but apt-get doesn't seem to notice that if you upgrade both, the virtual pacakge dependency is still fulfilled, or so16:15
gesercjwatson: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/15667866/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-i386.libgnupg-interface-perl_0.36-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz has that line too but there is also "Setting up gcc (4:4.3.1-1ubuntu2) ..."16:16
cjwatsongeser: how confusing. buggered $PATH?16:17
geserwhile talking about this build log, does somebody have an idea why gnupg was not found (leading to a FTBFS) while there is output from gpg for the signature check?16:17
cjwatson(can't see why that would be though)16:17
cjwatsongeser: it might be that dpkg-source is run outside the chroot16:18
cjwatsonor it might be that the configure script is on hopeless crack16:18
gesercjwatson: that package builds inside a pbuilder without problems16:19
gesercjwatson: do you know how many chroots are involved during a package build? I assumed it happens all in one chroot16:20
calca chroot isn't guaranteed to be the same as a current install of the same dist16:21
calcyou have to make sure your build-depends and build-conflicts are tight enough16:21
thebishopare official ubuntu releases built from source using APT?16:21
calci ran into that problem myself with OOo java build on ppc a few months back16:21
calci ended up just disabling java since i didn't know what was wrong with the buildd version of the build16:22
Lrrrthebishop: You can't really build anything with apt...16:22
thebishopLrrr, so is it traditional build scripts then?16:22
calcthebishop: probably built with sbuild16:23
Lrrrthebishop: No really it's a bit more complex than that, but it's pretty much built from source every release yeah16:23
thebishopthe reason i ask is i'm interested in working on a PS3 port of Ubuntu Mobile16:23
thebishopi'm trying to get an idea of how big an undertaking it will be16:24
calcthebishop: you need dpkg-dev to build stuff generally16:24
Lrrrthebishop: did you ever build a package, like manually?16:24
thebishopLrrr, yeah, i've built kernels on ubuntu.  I used to ./configure/make/makeinstall everything when I ran slackware16:25
Lrrrthebishop: You should initiate yourself to the intricates of Debian/Ubuntu packaging.16:25
Lrrrthebishop: but that'll give you just part of the answer.  There is a part of the work that will probably means porting some software to the PS3.  I don't really know how hard that part could be.16:26
pittiBenC: hm, installing v86d changed my boot from "usplash horribly distorted" to "not booting at all any more"16:27
BenCpitti: hmm...what version of v86d?16:28
pittiugh, after dist-upgrade, X doesn't start at all any more (intel GMA945)16:28
tjaaltonpitti: yes..16:28
pittiBenC: 0.1.5-1ubuntu116:28
tjaaltonpitti: maybe I should just upload a fix..16:29
tjaaltonand not wait for bryce :)16:29
pittitjaalton: seems it tries to use the vesa module16:29
tjaaltonpitti: that's because intel makes the server segfault, so bulletproof-x kicks in16:29
pittiah, that would be it16:29
pitti-vesa doesn't work either, though16:29
tjaaltonright, that's another bug16:29
tjaaltonmdz filed those16:30
pittitjaalton: right, I have a backtrace here, do you need it?16:30
tjaaltonpitti: those are already on the respective bugs16:30
pittiok, thanks16:30
pittitjaalton: if it's known, all is well16:30
BenCpitti: is uvesafb causing a problem with X?16:30
pittiBenC: I don't think they are related16:30
pittiwell, at least X breaks equally well when booting without splash16:31
mdzpitti: bug 24658516:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246585 in xserver-xorg-video-vesa "GTK applications crashing reproducibly when using vesa" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24658516:31
BenCpitti: what video mode are you passing to the kernel?16:31
mdzpitti: and bug 24658116:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246581 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "X server crash in libfb.so when EXA is enabled" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24658116:31
mdzpitti: you're correct that uvesafb is not related, though I noticed that problem as well16:31
mdzit seems to depend on v86d, which isn't installed16:32
pittiBenC: dmesg has "uvesafb: Getting VBE info block failed" and "vbe_init() failed with -22", and "probe of usesafb.0 failed with error -22"16:32
mdzinstalling it didn't particularly help things, though16:32
pittimdz: right, I just tried that, and it seems to make it worse16:32
pittimdz: scrambled usplash -> black screen16:32
pittiBenC: those messages are with v86d installed; without it, I got some "/sbin/v86d not present blabla"16:32
mdzpitti: I think it did the same for me, but I ended up going back to 2.6.24 anyway16:32
mdzpitti: I got a black screen where not even magic sysrq worked16:33
pittimdz: ctrl+alt+del worked for me16:33
pittiBenC: video mode> how can I tell?16:33
BenCpitti: was scrambled usplash a new problem, or is that expected?16:33
BenCpitti: cat /proc/cmdline16:33
mdzI wasn't sure whether it was a side effect of the X issues or framebuffer-related16:33
mdzBenC: scrambled usplash was new for me16:33
pittiBenC: scrambled> happens with the intrepid kernel, works with hardy kernel16:33
BenCmdz: when did that start occuring?16:33
mdzI have notes from upgrading my laptop which I haven't posted yet16:33
mdzBenC: intrepid16:33
pittiintrepid + hardy kernel> works, intrepid + -26.3> scrambled16:34
pittiBenC: you can still see text, but the progress bar jumps around, and text appears at wrong positions, etc.16:34
pittii. e. it's not a total noise, but pretty distorted16:34
pittiBenC: no particular video mode16:35
BenCpitti, mdz: Do you know what framebuffer is loaded when that happens (vg16fb?)16:35
tseliotpitti,tjaalton,superm1: I have just uploaded the drivers to my PPA. Just FYI. I'll have to adapt nvidia-settings so that it doesn't install the old drivers.16:35
BenCpitti: and btw, I've also noticed the "Getting VBE info block failed"...seems to be racey16:35
pittitseliot: yay!16:36
BenCpitti: weird, uvesafb shouldn't get loaded unless you have a specific video mode set16:36
mario_limoncielltseliot, great, i'll take a look sometime today16:36
mario_limoncielltseliot, does this include the dynamically detecting the ABI version of the provides?16:36
pittiBenC: I think it happens if you boot with usplash, that sets the native video mode (1280x800)16:36
pittiBenC: now I booted without splash, and have the standard 80x25 text console16:37
pitti(well, it *might* be a 640x400 framebuffer, hard to tell)16:37
mdzBenC: uvesafb I believe16:37
BenCpitti: cat /proc/fb16:37
pittiBenC: anyway, when booting without splash, I have "uvesafb" kmod loaded16:37
BenCpitti: if that doesn't exist, then no fb is loaded16:37
pittiBenC: exists, empty16:38
mdzBenC: I'm going to reboot later to test 2.6.26 again now that my X problems are fixed.  what do you want me to try?16:38
cjwatsonusplash should just be using svga rather than *vesafb16:38
tjaaltonfixed intel uploaded16:38
pittitjaalton: yay16:38
pittitjaalton: "Since compiz is not usable on intel anyway..." ugh, since when?16:39
BenCmdz: do you also have v86d installed?16:39
mdzBenC: yes, I installed it when I saw that error16:40
mdznothing depends on it16:40
=== devfil_ is now known as devfil
BenCmdz, pitti: Ok, then I just need to find out why uvesafb is getting loaded for no reason16:40
cjwatsonright, it only got promoted to main very very recently16:40
pittiBenC: I can try and blacklist it, shall I?16:40
pittiand then boot with usplash again16:40
BenCpitti: yeah, don't forget to rerun update-initramfs -u16:41
tjaaltonpitti: since mesa 7.116:41
pittiBenC: if it isn't loaded, v86d shouldn't make a difference, should it?16:41
BenCpitti: right16:41
tjaaltonpitti: there are two bugs that have been for some time16:42
cjwatsonis anyone else seeing occasional little bits of screen corruption in usplash in intrepid?16:44
tjaaltoncjwatson: yep16:44
cjwatsonit's mostly fine, but every so often, usplash decides to draw something a little bit above or below where it should be16:44
cjwatsonroughly two text lines' worth16:44
tjaaltonpitti: so, someone should kick the intel guys to fix those16:45
pitticjwatson: I also saw the progress bar jump, yes16:47
pittiBenC: so, with uvesafb blacklisted, I get a reasonably clean usplash up to some 15%, then it completely freezes16:48
* pitti boots again with usplash and verbose16:48
pittiBenC: blacklisted and no splash works fine16:48
mdztjaalton: what was that 'greedy' patch fixing?16:49
mdzpitti: I was the progress bar jump as well16:49
mdzalong with some random 1-pixel lines of garbage in a couple of places16:49
Chipzzsoren, cjwatson: wrt openssh key generation: how will that work in upstart?16:49
tjaaltonmdz: the driver uses EXA acceration thingy by default, but it's slow in some operations, so greedy tries to bypass some of that16:49
pittiBenC: hm, now it booted fine with usplash and the module blacklisted; still screen corruption, but a bit better16:50
Chipzzdoes upstart support such complex scenario's?16:50
pittiall very mysterious, though16:50
tjaaltonmdz: but apparently with xserver 1.5 EXA is better, so the patch might be obsolete anyway16:50
pittiBenC: well, plenty of stuff to try next week :)16:51
cjwatsonChipzz: upstart supports bits of shell that you run before the daemon starts. I don't see how it would be a problem in the slightest16:52
=== ion__ is now known as ion_
tseliotmario_limonciell: would you mind if I removed the Recommends and the Conflicts from nvidia-settings?16:55
pittitjaalton: yay, new -intel works, thanks!16:55
mario_limoncielltseliot, what are they currently right now?16:55
pittihttp://launchpadlibrarian.net/15891896/xserver-xorg-video-intel_2.3.2-2ubuntu2_i386.deb if someone wants to test it before it gets published16:55
tseliotmario_limonciell: Recommends: nvidia-glx (>= 1:96.43.05+ |  nvidia-glx-new (>= 169.09+ | nvidia-glx-legacy (>= 71.86.04+
tseliotsame for Conflicts16:56
mario_limoncielltseliot, yeah i say remove them16:56
Chipzzcjwatson: ah ok I mistakenly thought it was less advanced16:56
tseliotmario_limonciell: ok.16:56
mario_limoncielltseliot, you might consider making nvidia-settings recommends for all the different driver packages though16:56
tseliotmario_limonciell: I would like something like Jockey or EnvyNG to deal with hardware detection16:58
tseliotmario_limonciell: and install the right driver16:58
tjaaltonpitti: as designed ;)16:58
mario_limoncielltseliot, yeah it will16:58
mario_limonciellbut i'm saying nvidia-settings should be a recommends for each of those driver's packages16:58
mario_limonciellso that when you install the driver, you get nvidia-settings too16:58
BenCpitti, mdz: If the screen corruption occurs without v86d installed (or uvesafb loaded), then we may have a vga16fb problem...I'll check into it (I noticed it too, but thought it was local to me)16:59
tseliotmario_limonciell: ah, ok. I agree then16:59
mario_limoncielltseliot, i recently committed something to fglrx so similar happens with the amdcccle17:00
pittiBenC: yes, I purged v86d and blacklisted uvesafb; the machine boots now (no black screen and hang), just with some corruptions17:00
pittiBenC: it's of course entirely possible that it is a bug in usplash, but it looks ok on the hardy kernel; might be a coincidence, of course17:00
tseliotmario_limonciell: great, let's be consistent then ;)17:00
=== ion__ is now known as ion_
cjwatsonBenC: the screen corruption happens to me both with and without v86d installed17:01
pittiso the only remaining problem now is broken suspend17:01
cjwatsonBenC: however, I just read through the hardy->intrepid diff to usplash, and there seem to be no relevant changes17:01
BenCcjwatson: ok, thanks17:05
=== Nafallo_ is now known as Nafallo
slangasek_MMA_: if vorbis-tools cares about file extensions, then it probably makes sense to open a task for it on bug #201291, yes17:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 201291 in mime-support "Add ogv (video) and oga (audio) as recognized extension for Ogg Theora and Ogg Vorbis, respectively" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20129117:12
slangaseksuperm1: mythbuntu alt disks published as 8.04.1 now, cheers17:17
_MMA_slangasek: Sorry. I dug into this further with the guys @ #vorbis and even though they made these new extensions they have no plans to push them and still recommend using .ogg because of breakage downstream.17:24
_MMA_slangasek: This is with vorbis-tools/oggenc that is.17:35
ograhmm, why cant i find any code for using hardy-updates in livecd-rootfs ?17:40
* ogra would have expected it to use updates ...17:41
cjwatsonogra: it does, it's there17:43
cjwatsonsearch for 'updates' in livecd.sh, second hit17:43
ograhmm, grep updates gains me nothing in the hardy package17:43
cjwatsonogra: oh, it's only in intrepid17:44
cjwatsonjust pull from bzr17:44
ograright ...17:44
ogra(we should sru the package with the patch though)17:45
ograso people building their own CDs dont end up with the wrong ssh client :)17:45
=== mkrufky is now known as mkrufky-lunch
cjwatsonogra: that would make sense17:46
=== Pici` is now known as Pici
slangasek_MMA_: er, that directly contradicts the information in the xiph.org wiki page pointed to in that bug...18:03
_MMA_slangasek: Ill PM you.18:04
slangaseki.e., they may not currently be recommending that the default extensions be changed when generating, but there's MIME standardization being pushed here, which means that applications that /read/ oggs need to know the new extensions, for sure18:04
_MMA_Awareness of the MIMEs but thats it.18:05
_MMA_Which seems silly to me but oh well.18:05
slangasekwell, presumably we could make a change down the line to the choice of extensions at creation time, once it's been widely adopted18:06
slangaseksoren: is bug #187048 something that can be fixed in intrepid for alpha 2?  (the milestone pitti originally set for it)18:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 187048 in virt-manager "virDomainCreateLinux() failed Timed out while reading console startup output" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18704818:06
pittislangasek: those were all hardy SRUs, so I'd think so18:07
pittithose just mean "get it uploaded to intrepid NOW", since technically it was already violating SRU rules18:07
slangasekpitti: right, and this is my pre-alpha2 nag for milestoned bugs :)18:08
* cjwatson gets going on a version of debian-policy for Ubuntu18:13
liwcjwatson, yay18:17
brycetjaalton, mdz, I've pushed up an -intel with that greedy patch disabled18:17
brycesorry, we should have caught that earlier yesterday, we knew -intel's behavior with greedy was going to change with the new xserver18:18
geserdid somebody also seen in intrepid that a key is repeated like you would hold it down? it happens here sometimes when the system is under load18:20
ograsounds kernelish18:21
gesermight by true as I started seeing this after upgrading to intrepid kernel18:22
slangasekgeser: I've heard of that bug, yes, but I'm afraid I can't be any more specific than that18:25
kirklandslangasek: hey, i'm off the phone with dendrobates now18:26
kirklandslangasek: dendrobates feels strongly that AuthClientConfig is the proper place to solve this problem for our purposes, pam_ecryptfs.so munging into the pam stack18:27
kirklandslangasek: I'm curious about your proposed solution18:27
kirklandslangasek: do you have anything in writing yet about how you'd like to tackle it?18:27
cjwatsongeser: bug 218516? however, the patch that fixed that seems to be in the intrepid kernel18:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 218516 in linux "[hardy] key events are delayed under circumstances" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21851618:27
cjwatsongeser: (probably best not to reuse that bug)18:28
dendrobateskirkland slangasek: to be clear, I just want the logic in that package, not to solve the problem with templates18:28
slangasekkirkland: yes; let me push it into a wiki page18:29
slangasekdendrobates: eh, once the PAM stuff is done, the auth-client-config package should be obsolete18:29
slangasekbecause it needs to be done in the pam package itself18:29
kirklandslangasek: is that for Debian Policy reasons?18:30
slangasekkirkland: it's because it should be part of the core of how the pam packages work, there's no reason for it to be a separately-maintained package at that point18:30
mdzbryce: I thought tjaalton already had18:31
gesercjwatson: thanks, that's seems to be the problem I also see18:31
slangasekkirkland: auth-client-config might still be useful on an upgrade basis for those who already have it installed, but that's all it should be doing in the New World Order18:31
brycemdz, yup he did18:31
cjwatsongeser: perhaps best to file a new bug and refer to it rather than piggy-backing on it; it's potentially quite a general problem so may be unrelated18:32
slangasekkirkland, dendrobates: oh, correction; I guess auth-client-config would still be relevant for the NSS bits, which are so far down the line I shy away from thinking about it :/18:32
dendrobatesslangasek: the long term plan is to allow pam/nss configuration from a template stored in ldap.18:33
kirklandslangasek: how much time/effort is there in implementing your suggested pam-config scheme?18:33
slangasekdendrobates: um, well, the Debian packages are going to implement this using debconf; if you can use the debconf ldap backend, then great, but otherwise ldap isn't going to be a good fit for what actually needs to be done in any case18:36
slangasekkirkland: depends on how fast you code, perhaps? :)18:36
kirklandslangasek: i'm trying to put the ecryptfs-related development behind me so that I can focus on a couple of other things dendrobates has me assigned to for intrepid (booting degraded raid, iscsi on installation)18:38
slangasekdendrobates: wanting to pre-configure everything via LDAP is only one of a variety of use cases that should be supported.  Single-user desktops also have need for a configuration framework for PAM, and that implies debconf.18:38
kirklandslangasek: the two biggies i have left for ecryptfs-private-dirs are (1) the main inclusions for 4 packages, and (2) the pam config18:38
slangasekkirkland: right, give me two shakes to finish dumping my notes to the wiki18:38
kirklandslangasek: sure, no problem18:38
tseliotpitti,mario_limonciell: I have uploaded the new nvidia-settings and the nvidia drivers so that they recommend nvidia-settings18:41
slangasekkirkland: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PAMConfigFrameworkSpec18:53
kirklandslangasek: reading....18:54
slangasekkirkland: as a spec, it's currently terrible, but I think most of the core design is there18:55
slangaseksaivann: heh, 220631 bumped to alpha-3 without even trying to get it fixed? :)18:56
saivannslangasek : Was it a bad move? You said that we would not have enough time for alpha 1 (that was before I realised that this bug might not exist anymore in intrepid :) )18:57
saivanns/alpha 1/alpha 2/18:58
slangaseksaivann: oh, I didn't say that we wouldn't have time, I only said that /if/ there's not time it should be re-targeted18:58
slangasekbut it's fix-released now, so ok :)18:59
saivannslangasek : Oh, my fault, I didn't read the "*if* that's not feasible", sorry18:59
alex_dinamoguys... hello to all19:01
alex_dinamoI've got a problem19:01
alex_dinamoI am in a urge to get subversion 1.5 running19:01
alex_dinamowhen tryng to compile, it can't find libneon.la19:01
thomalex_dinamo: way, way offtopic for this channel, sorry19:01
alex_dinamoseems like neon is not compiled with libtool support, something like that19:01
ion_We have a problem, too. To prevent it, we’ve set the topic.19:01
alex_dinamowhere can I ask?19:02
saivannIs there a developer who knows usplash a bit that can help me fixing bug 55159 and bug 13936319:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 55159 in usplash "[edgy] usplash prevents passwords from being not echoed on the console" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/5515919:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 139363 in cryptsetup ""Enter passphrase" for LUKS/cryptsetup breaks usplash" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/13936319:02
thomalex_dinamo: please see the topic19:02
ion_alex_dinamo: #ubuntu or https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+addquestion19:03
_MMA_saivann: I can get you in touch with someone who knows the ins and outs of its themeing (they might know something) but I have no clue who actually *works* on usplash anymore.19:04
saivann_MMA_ : Thanks, if possible, if you can show him/her the bug reports, it would greatly helps me19:05
=== hefe_bia_ is now known as hefe_bia
slangasekkirkland: page updated, I dug up my draft of the config file format & preliminary stack examples19:17
kirklandslangasek: cool, i was going to ask for examples of your syntax19:18
slangasekthe draft config file format still needs refined, as you'll see from the notes; there are a couple of points where I think I've got a bit of redundancy19:19
slangasekhmm, apparently I need to do some wiki formatting though19:19
kirklandslangasek: you thinking python?  perl?  shell?  C? for the implementation?19:25
ograto add something new :)19:27
slangasekkirkland: I would like python, but that poses implementation problems for Debian since libpam-runtime is transitively essential and python is not part of base19:27
slangasekkirkland: so realistically, one of perl or C19:28
kirklandslangasek: Well fwiw, I'm about 2x faster programmer in perl than python.  Considering the string parsing involved, I think perl would be kinder than C.19:30
slangasekkirkland: that's ok with me. :)19:30
kirklandslangasek: I'd like, though, to get some input from dendrobates and jdstrand before starting down this route19:30
* slangasek nods19:31
kirklandslangasek: dendrobates is pretty strongly behind enhancing auth-client-config to have it do what we want, rather than writing something from scratch19:31
jdstrandkirkland: what input do you need/want?19:32
MtJBwill ubuntu issue a patch for the DNS design flaw today?19:50
lagawhat DNS design flaw?19:51
mouzlaga: http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/2008/msg00184.html19:53
MtJBmulti vendor patches coming today from bind, ms, sun, cisco, and other19:54
jdstrandMtJB: it's being worked on20:09
pittiBenC: hm, any idea why /dev/rtc doesn't exist any more? (vmware complains); I have a /dev/rtc0 now, but it has a radically different major/minor20:09
BenCpitti: we aren't using the legacy rtc subsystem anymore20:12
BenCpitti: with 2.6.26, you can't enable the legacy and standard rtc interfaces at the same time anymore20:27
pittiBenC: ah, thanks; so itz vmware bug20:27
thebishopis there a monolithic source tree for the various flavors of Ubuntu?  For instance, is there one place where I can check out all the source for the packages in xubuntu or ubuntu mobile?20:29
LaserJockthebishop: no20:31
Lrrrsadly no20:32
Lrrrthebishop: apt has the source packages20:32
Lrrrthebishop: check the apt-get source command20:32
thebishopis that how Ubuntu is able to produce usable builds daily?20:33
LaserJockthebishop: we don't rebuild from source package daily20:33
Lrrrthebishop: No that's quite a bit more complex than that.  Still, the sources are  there.20:33
LaserJockthebishop: there are scripts/programs that build the CD from the existing binary packages20:34
LaserJockthebishop: generally what you want to read up on is germinate (and seeds ) and debiancd20:34
thebishopLaserJock, I see.  So only a few packages are built daily20:35
LaserJockthebishop: whenever a new version is uploaded it is built20:35
thebishopthe reason i ask (Lrrr knows) is that I'd like to port Ubuntu Mobile to the Playstation320:35
LaserJockand it's not rebuilt (generally) until a new version is uploaded20:36
LaserJockthebishop: yeah, saw that from a few hours ago :-)20:36
LaserJockthebishop: so basically you want to get a list of the packages involved, and build the source packages on PS320:36
thebishopLaserJock, I assume Ubuntu also has a ton of its own scripts and config files to make everything more cohesive20:37
ScottKNote that for Hardy, Ubuntu Mobile is not 100% built from the official Ubuntu mirrors.  They have an additional one of their own.  I don't know where it is.20:37
thebishopnot to mention art assets20:37
slangasekthey have a ppa, but I wouldn't be able to tell you the name of it offhand20:38
thebishopScottK, what about Intrepid?  May as well start working on the latest version20:38
ScottKIt is my understanding that they intend to work out of the official repos.  I don't know if they have transitioned yet.20:39
LaserJockthebishop: everything is in source packages, you just got to find them :-)20:39
LaserJockthebishop: have you looked at the Ubuntu PS3 isos?20:39
LaserJockseems like it wouldn't be too far to go from there to Ubuntu Mobile PS3 port20:41
thebishopI don't know, isn't Ubuntu Mobile designed to be fast and light?20:42
LaserJockthebishop: well, it uses a different package selection, but the basics would be similar I'd think20:43
LaserJockthebishop: the Intrepid mobile seed is at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.intrepid I believe20:46
LaserJockthebishop: that should help you get a list of packages20:46
Mirvtjaalton/bryce: definitely some progress now with intel performance with xserver 1.5 EXA (without greedy). not completely great yet, but hopefully the greedy patch can now be left disabled.20:48
bryceMirv: yeah20:48
Mirvthe compiz broken on intel 965 with mesa 7.1 is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14441 - there's a one-line fix but I guess intel should do it in a proper way21:14
ubottuFreedesktop bug 14441 in Drivers/DRI/i965 "Compiz shows only black screen on i965" [Normal,Assigned]21:14
Keybukblack screen?21:17
KeybukI get a white screen!21:17
MirvKeybuk: white screen is usually that LIBGL_ALWAYS_INDIRECT is not set, see the last two comments21:17
Mirvafter setting it you get a black screen :)21:17
tjaaltonI get a corrupt screen21:19
tjaaltonbut the same bug most likely21:19
YokoZarWhat is Ubuntu "Complete Edition" ? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?a=8888563&type=product&tab=1&id=1211587312374#productdetail21:26
Mirvtjaalton: oh yes, as mentioned in the bug report, it at least used to be corrupt screen without TTM (like intrepid now), or black screen with TTM. I guess it hasn't changed.21:26
tjaaltonMirv: yep, the desktop and windows mostly black, decorations corrupt21:27
Mirvif it really looks like intel is not doing anything about it soon, one may consider having the one line patched in the intel driver21:30
MirvYokoZar: hopefully something being agreed between this "valusoft" and canonical, since it's on sale on best buy...21:34
YokoZarMirv: branding Ubuntu trademarks, no less21:35
Mirvlooks like they also have "office suite 2007", but at least they dont use openoffice.org name21:37
bryceMirv: I've emailed Intel support about those two issues this morning to try to raise visibility on these regressions21:43
bryceMirv: hopefully we'll see some progress made on them soon21:43
Mirvbryce: oh great, hopefully so21:43
bryceI worry the answer's going to be something like, "You need GEM to make it work"21:44
Mirvyep, gallium + gem + dri2 + xserver 1.6 ;)21:45
Mirvbut Eric indicated in the bug report that the code in mesa should be simply disabled or fixed, so I'd guess the compiz fix is very much doable for mesa 7.121:46
brycehope so21:46
MirvMichel, that is, not Eric21:46
kirklanddoko: hi, are you around?21:46
kirklanddoko: i have a bug/patch for lsb.  you sponsored my last one, though you might review/sponsor this one too.21:47
ograKeybuk, would you have time for a question ?21:49
cjwatsonYokoZar: could you please mail trademarks@ubuntu.com about that?21:53
cjwatsonit's not clear to me that it falls within the trademark policy21:55
YokoZarcjwatson: done21:59
Mirvcjwatson: usage of Ubuntu logo, name etc. in any commercial way. "Restricted use that requires a trademark license" ... "Any commercial use" (http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy)22:00
YokoZarcjwatson: "Complete Edition" to me sounds like a box that would have multiple dvds with every package (universe included), sorta like Debian's 14-discs series22:00
_MMA_Take a peak. Looks like 1 disk.22:01
MirvYokoZar: thanks22:01
geserthere is also a Ubuntu Satanic Edition? http://ubuntusatanic.org/news/22:02
_MMA_geser: Old joke. Parody. ;)22:03
Mirvthey do state they are "Official Re-Distributor" and that Canonical recognizes them as such, so maybe they've a deal. http://princessleia.com/images/ubuntu/box_back.jpg22:03
kirklandslangasek: hey, question for you, regarding soft freeze22:05
kirklandslangasek: regarding https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-July/000446.html, I have a non-disruptive, minor change to lsb that's gating a stack of other patches.  I'm curious if it's a candid for upload during soft freeze, or if not, when the archive will open again for upload?22:08
sorenslangasek: re bug 187048> I checked that off my list long, long ago. It's not in intrepid?22:09
ubottuLaunchpad bug 187048 in virt-manager "virDomainCreateLinux() failed Timed out while reading console startup output" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18704822:09
slangasekkirkland: the archive will open again on Thursday; if the lsb change isn't going to break installabilities and is holding up progress elsewhere, go ahead22:09
slangaseksoren: according to the bug state, it's not22:09
sorenThat's a fair point. :)22:10
kirklandslangasek: it's not.  though I'll need a sponsor, as I don't have upload privs.22:10
=== asac_ is now known as asac
calcI switched over to approx 3.3.0 to see how it works, apt-proxy is too incomplete to be useful22:29
calcit doesn't support more than one distribution (eg dapper/intrepid)22:29
calcapparently the issues i had with approx may be fixed now22:30
ograapt-proxy is ingenious for image building ...22:31
ograbut beyond that pretty useless22:31
slaytonhas anybody here used xdg-desktop-menu install before? I've got some weird errors... the Name=<value> is being ignored in my .directory files...22:33
slaytonoops wrong channel22:34
dokokirkland: please file a report and patch and subscribe me22:38
kirklanddoko: thanks, it's https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lsb/+bug/24673522:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246735 in lsb "status_of_proc() calls pidofproc() which calls kill, requiring ownership privileges on the process" [Medium,In progress]22:39
kirklanddoko: i think kees was going to sponsor it, but i haven't seen it yet22:39
keeskirkland: sorry, got caught up in bind9 update paperwork22:40
TheMusoslangasek: Ubuntustudio is still nowhere near an alpha, due to still unresolved kernel issues.22:40
slangasekTheMuso: ok. is anyone actively working on those?22:41
kirklandkees: yeah, i bet that's consuming you, sorry for this nagging, then22:41
TheMusoslangasek: I belive our kernel guy is, but haven't heard any status on this as yet.22:41
kantorhi, how makes ubuntu to use ATA and ATAPI (hdx) devices as SCSI devices (sgx, scdx) ?22:44
cjwatsonMirv: er, yeah, I think you read my sentence the wrong way round22:45
cjwatsonMirv: my sentence meant "it seems likely to me that it doesn't fall within the trademark policy"22:46
cjwatsonMirv: I'm surprised that Canonical would have approved something called "Ubuntu Complete Edition", thereby implying that normal Ubuntu is incomplete22:46
cjwatsonI'll ask around22:46
cjwatsonah, well, Fabian's comment on princessleia's blog would be authoritative on that I suppose22:49
Keybukogra: what's up?22:50
ograKeybuk, hey ... i'm working with ion_ on the compcache spec ...22:51
ograif you look at the code snippet in there, there is a modprobe followed by a swapon22:51
ograthe loading of the compcache module is slow though ... which means the swapon will catch a race22:52
ion_ogra: My patch is about ready, i’ll post it in a bit.22:53
ion_It’s using udev.22:53
ograKeybuk, all the core stuff will be added to initramfs-tools for compcache ... to avoid the race ion_ proposed a udev script like http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/compcache-0807071820/compcache-0ubuntu1/debian/compcache.udev22:53
ograKeybuk, my simple question is where to put something like that in the initramfs-tools source :)22:53
ograwe dont have any rules scripts there yet ...22:54
ion_My patch handles that as well. :-P22:54
ion_Kind of22:54
ion_I’ll see whether you approve.22:54
Keybukin the debian/ directory ?22:54
ograah, k i didnt know that yet :)22:54
infinityogra: Should land in /etc/udev, like any other udev rule...22:55
ograinfinity, in the package source ?22:55
ogra(of initramfs-tools)22:55
ograwell, lest wait for ion_, i dont know his solution yet :)22:56
Keybukwherever seems sane22:56
KeybukI'd argue you should put it in the compcache source package22:56
keeskirkland, doko, slangasek: lsb 3.2-12ubuntu2 has been uploaded22:56
ograi dont want a compcache source package22:56
ograits a core feature like framebuffer or thremal22:57
Keybukotherwise how do you disable it?22:57
kirklandkees: much thanks!22:57
ograits disabled by default22:57
Keybukthermal shouldn't be loaded by the initramfs22:57
ogra(see the spec =22:57
ograwell, you know what i mean22:58
keeskirkland: no problemo :)22:58
infinityKeybuk: thermal probably shouldn't, but it is, because we had nowhere else to put it.22:58
ograits a kernel module and gets the config from initramfs.conf22:58
Keybukinfinity: udev loads it22:58
ion_ogra, keybuk: heh.fi/tmp/initramfs-tools-compcache.diff22:58
infinityKeybuk: And PowerMacs explode if you don't load fans early and often.22:58
Keybuk(it didn't at the time we put it in there, but it does now)22:58
kirklandkees: would you mind pinging me when bind9 is done?  I'll hold off on posting the init script patch until you've updated Intrepid22:58
ion_Whoops, http://heh.fi/tmp/initramfs-tools-compcache.diff22:58
infinityKeybuk: Yeah, well.  Point's still valid, even if the implementation has since gone away. :)22:58
keeskirkland: well, it's mostly done now.  still issues with glibc that need to be sorted, but not by me yet.22:59
ograion_, eeek, i thought we had agree on standadizing for percent only22:59
ion_Uh, i thought we didn’t. :-) Me wants 50 %.22:59
ion_The overhead of the percentage code is neglibigle, and any of it doesn’t go to the initramfs if a percentage isn’t used.23:00
ograi just dont like the massive amount of options23:00
ion_50 %, 65536 k, 256 M, 1 G. Is the number of suffix choices really that massive?23:01
ograalso its missing the change from my patch to auto_add_modules ...23:01
Keybukisn't it K ?23:02
ion_force_load does that.23:02
ion_keybuk: Nope. If we’d use kibits, it’d be Ki.23:02
Keybukion_: everywhere else in Ubuntu uses KB23:02
Keybuk          RX bytes:2960 (2.8 KB)  TX bytes:2960 (2.8 KB)23:02
infinityKeybuk: I surely hope not.23:02
ion_Kelvinbytes :-)23:02
Keybukso you should match23:02
infinityKeybuk: There's no such SI prefix.23:03
Keybukinfinity: bytes aren't SI units23:03
infinityKeybuk: Matching incorrect prefixes isn't sane.  Where else is "everywhere"?23:03
Keybuknor are bits23:03
Keybukand you can't argue for them to be SI units either, because a tenth of a byte is meaningless23:03
ograKeybuk, infinity optioions on the amount of options ?23:03
Keybukand SI units must, by definition, be equally divisible as they are multiplicable23:03
ograi'm not really happy with so many23:03
infinityogra: The number of options are fine.23:03
* ogra would have gone with MB only or alterantively with %23:04
ograits not that it will be used by standard users or so23:04
infinityKeybuk: You can argue until you're blue in the face, but the units are "kB and KiB", we can argue what they MEAN, but there is no "KB" documented anywhere that I know of.23:04
ion_infinity: It would be worse: in Finland, operating systems and computer magazines have switched to using t instead of B, because byte happens to be tavu in Finnish.23:05
Keybukinfinity: it's certainly documented in the Oreilly style guide ;)23:05
ion_It’s as if nobody learned in school that you don’t translate units, period. :-)23:06
Keybukand KB is used everywhere else in Ubuntu23:06
ograion_, can you drop the export  ?23:06
ogra. "${CONFDIR}/initramfs.conf" in mkinitramfs conf should take care23:06
Keybukand has been the conventional way people on the street have written it for years23:07
ion_ogra: Will do.23:07
infinityKeybuk: Does "KB" in the output of ifconfig mean "1000 Bytes" (kB) or "1024 Bytes" (KiB)?23:07
Keybukinfinity: 1024 bytes23:08
Keybukas its meant to everyone since the dawn of time, before other people decided to be silly23:08
infinityKeybuk: I'd argue that if it means "1000", it should be a lower-case k, and if it means 1024, then fine, KB == KiB works for me.23:08
wgrantOh dear, this debate is going nowhere good (though I side with infinity)23:08
lamontand this is what happens when marketing and pedants get near specificiations23:09
calcjust send all of the people who like si bytes to siberia ;)23:09
KeybukI have scientists on my side ;)  a byte cannot be an SI unit23:10
* calc wishes the installer used real units instead of the si crap23:10
Keybukno matter how hard the strange people wish23:10
calci end up partitioning my system with fdisk and bc23:10
lamontcalc: and while we're at it, lets put an upper limit of 70MB on a package source. :-p23:10
Keybukcalc: it should use real units, we deliberately patch software in Ubuntu to eradicate KiB where we find them23:10
calclamont: heh :)23:10
calclamont: even the diff.gz is bigger than 70MB ;-)23:10
lamontI know23:10
Keybuk(though partitioners have their own strange problems, since disk manufactures use multiples of 1000 blocks of 1024 bytes23:11
Keybuk or is it the other way around?)23:11
lamontif your diff.gz is bigger that 50MB, it's time to bump the version and make a new orig.tar.gz :)23:11
* ogra dances ... finally got the cmpc image back under 800M23:11
calcKeybuk: fdisk was good until the author decided to switch it to 1000 bytes23:11
* LaserJock yells "SI FTW!!" and runs to hide behind a laser23:11
Keybuklamont: isn't that forking?23:11
Keybukcalc: fdisk is correct23:11
lamontKeybuk: diff.gz is forking23:11
Keybukdisk manufactures really do use 1000 bytes as their base23:12
Keybukbut then usually use powers of two to multiply that23:12
calcyes but filesystems really use 1024 bytes23:12
ion_ogra etc: http://heh.fi/tmp/initramfs-tools-compcache.diff23:12
lamontKeybuk: that's marketing getting involved... it's all SI base now23:12
ograion_, i'm not sure i actually like the approach of using modprobe.d here vs using a normal initramfs script23:12
wgrantAnd disk manufacturers don't do it for innocent reasons.23:12
calcin particular 4096 byte blocks, etc23:12
* Keybuk wants a 4 mb disk23:12
ion_ogra: I can change that. I just thought force_load and modprobe.d would be the right thing to do.23:13
ograion_, ond that it looks good to me ...23:13
ion_Anyone else have comments about that?23:13
Keybukand a 23 nB USB key23:13
calci assume that means nautilus is supposed to show disk sizes by SI bytes then as well23:13
infinityion_: If it works, I honestly don't care how it's done.23:13
calcsince it claims my 32GB partition is 34.4GB23:13
ion_keybuk: At least we have gb disks now since they introduced the VWBS technology.23:14
Keybukcalc: nautilus uses 1024 multiples, iirc23:14
infinityion_: The current implementation that write files out during mkinitramfs is a bit unreadable, mind you...23:14
calcKeybuk: it doesn't appear to here23:14
calc33551721 blocks for ntfs shows up as 34.4GB in nautilus23:14
infinityion_: On the flip side, it's unreadably located in one script, instead of being readably located across 3 or 4 files, so I guess it's a tossup.23:14
ograion_, well, i like the approach, dont get me wrong, its just unconventional and totally different from anything we do in intramfs-.tools23:14
* lamont cries a little at 1:9.5.0-P1.dfsg-0build1 <= 1:9.5.0.dfsg-423:14
Keybuk(it'd be a neat project for someone to sanify all our usage of byte multiples -- as long as they don't use wankibytes)23:14
ion_infinity: Originally i had the computation of the kilobytes in a script that goes into the initramfs, but ogra prefered that no extra computation or lines go to the initramfs, for instance parsin /proc/meminfo when using a percentage.23:15
calc(33551721*1024)/2^30 = 31.997 GB23:15
infinitylamont: s/-P1/.P1/23:15
infinitylamont: Dashes in upstream version numbers are vile anyway.23:15
ion_keybuk: gb, VWBS: http://johan.kiviniemi.name/blag/2005/12/31/gb/ :-)23:15
ograion_, right because the module dtrt and uses 25% if you dont supply a value23:15
lamontupstream did it, not me.23:15
infinitylamont: Yeah, I know. :)23:15
Keybukion_: what's "gb" ?23:16
calcit doesn't bother me too much that they renamed GB to GiB, etc but it should be displayed in computer units instead of braindead SI/HD Manufacturer units23:16
ion_keybuk: Please see the page :-)23:16
calcsince filesystems don't use those screwed up units23:16
calcand ram doesn't etc23:16
calcso if you want to be certain you have enough swap to suspend you have to convert from real 8GB to SI 8GiB which shows up as 8.6 GB now23:17
Keybukion_: wouldn't that be bits-per-gram?23:17
calcbig freaking mess all due to some greedy marketing people23:17
lamontKeybuk: gb is where you live23:17
Keybukif you wanted a new unit, you can't just smash two units together and hope23:17
Keybukcalc: I've never seen anyone use KiB23:18
Keybukor GiB23:18
Keybukespecially not marketing people23:18
Keybukthe only time I ever see it is when people with IRC adenoids start sticking their oar in and whinging23:18
cjwatsonpartitioner> it uses disk marketing units because otherwise people complain that it doesn't match the advertised size of their disk. The topic is closed; I have no interest in debating it back and forward until the end of time, sorry.23:19
ion_So, which ones shall i do? 0) Make the hook clearer by putting the kilobyte calculation to a separate script that is installed VS. let them stay in the hook, making it a bit unclear. 1) Use force_load and modprobe.d VS. do modprobe $parameters directly in a script.23:19
Keybukcjwatson: but it doesn't use "GiB" ?23:19
lamontKeybuk: 4.7GB on a dvd...23:19
cjwatsonKeybuk: er, no, it uses disk marketing units, i.e. 1000 not 102423:19
Keybukcjwatson: right, that's exactly what I understood23:19
norsettostate the size in binary and let them convert it to whatever units they like23:20
Keybukwhich, in a partioner, is entirely correct23:20
lamontnorsetto: grandma won't like you23:20
norsettolamont: should I say what I think of grandma?23:20
lamontshe is the ubuntu user base23:21
norsettolamont: I love her :-)23:21
ion_ogra? infinity?23:21
ion_ogra: Oh! Sourcing /e/i/initramfs.conf isn’t enough. We forgot /e/i/conf.d and /u/s/i/conf.d23:22
ion_ogra: Should i source the files in them as well, or just export the variable in mkinitramfs?23:22
ograthats all done already23:22
ogranothing you need to take care of23:23
ion_ogra: Wait... mkinitramfs sources everything, but with the latest change, it doesn’t export the variable, i do . /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf as you suggested. But that fails to read the files in /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d etc, in which COMPCACHE_SIZE may be overridden.23:24
ograi didnt suggest you to add that line23:25
ograits already in mkinitramfs :)23:25
ion_Ah, i misread. Sorry.23:25
ogranothing to do with that on your side23:25
calcKeybuk: which makes the partitioner useless23:26
calcKeybuk: since it is important in several cases that your partition match whatever you want to call real *B's23:27
calcfor the past 4-5 years (whenever he got on crack) I have had to use bc and cylinders to partition systems23:27
calcperhaps a good solution for users would be to suggest the GB size to make their swap to actually match their ram size for suspend23:27
calcsince they don't match if you use marketing crap for partitioner23:28
cjwatsonno, it does not make the partitioner useless23:28
infinityion_: Remove the source from your hook script, and add an export to mkinitramfs.23:28
cjwatsonI think you'll find that plenty of people manage to use the partitioner quite successfully23:28
calcalso some fs like fat32 change cluster size based on GB boundaries23:28
Keybukcalc: isn't that exactly what the partioner already does?23:28
calccjwatson: oh it works as in it creates a partition of course23:28
cjwatsonthe partitioner already suggests sensible swap sizes based on RAM size, yes23:28
infinityion_: Well, export it if you need it during mkinitramfs.23:28
calcKeybuk: it does? i don't recall seeing it tell me that, maybe i was installing in a mode that didn't show it23:29
infinityion_: If you need it on boot, it needs to end up in a conf file.23:29
cjwatsonif you're doing autopartitioning23:29
infinityion_: (See, for instance, the line with: echo "DPKG_ARCH=${DPKG_ARCH}" > ${DESTDIR}/conf/arch.conf")23:29
cjwatsonand seriously, it does not matter if your swap partition size differs by a factor of 1.02423:29
cjwatsonthere are more important things to worry about23:29
cjwatsonthe autopartitioner suggests bigger than RAM anyway ...23:30
* calc got called in to finish cooking dinner23:30
cjwatsonthat said, it would make sense to have a warning if swap is smaller than RAM, and I'd appreciate a bug on partman-basicfilesystems for that23:30
Chipzz00:06 < ion_> It's as if nobody learned in school that you don't translate units, period. :-)23:30
Chipzzion_: tell THAT to the French :P23:30
cjwatson(sorry, I didn't see "suspend" in calc's comment at first)23:30
Chipzzdamn "octets" :P23:30
ion_chipzz: Well, o is at least a standard.23:31
Chipzzion_: it is? outside of France, I mean :P23:31
ion_Hm, at least i was under such an assumption.23:32
ion_I may be wrong.23:32
cjwatsonone option would be to set up ubiquity such that hovering over the partition would pop up a tooltip with exact size23:33
ChipzzI wonder how "octet" can be a standard when the concept of byte was invented by an English speaker :P23:33
Chipzzanyway, offtopc :P23:34
* lamont finds it amusing that engineers of back-when said KB, knowing full well that there was a 2.4% error, and just not caring. If you want precision, then you're kind of stuck with the actual SI units...23:38
Keybuklamont: except that a byte cannot possibly be an SI unit23:39
Keybukif you want precision, you can simply type out, in full, what you mean23:39
lamontexcept that the same computer engineers co-oped si for their new "unit"23:39
Keybuksince if you're rounding by a factor of one million, or even a thousand million, you really really aren't getting any kind of precision anyway23:39
Keybuklamont: what use is a nanobyte?23:40
Keybukor a millibit?23:40
lamontKeybuk: exactly.  if you use the SI unit prefixes, then you mean 10^3.23:40
Keybukwhy not just write that, if that's what you mean?23:40
* lamont has heard of networks with millibits per second of throughput23:40
Keybukif you have exactly that number of bytes23:40
infinitylamont: Yours?23:41
lamontKeybuk: right.23:41
lamontinfinity: meh23:41
lamontno.  someone implemented IP-over-bongo-drums.23:41
lamont140second ping time23:41
Keybukif you have 8 x 10^3 + 47 bytes, you're not being precise anyway23:41
Keybukso who cares?23:41
lamontKeybuk: remember that engineers come from a world where the models they use are off by 10% or more23:42
lamontKeybuk:  marketing23:42
Keybukmarketing don't use wankibytes23:42
lamontand so they reduced the error when it became 4.9 and 10% to being .1%23:42
Keybuk(not that I've ever seen, anyway)23:42
lamontmarketing uses KB and they mean 10^323:42
lamonteveryone means 10^323:42
lamontthen there are the pedants who _think_ they mean 2^1923:43
lamont2^10 even23:43
calccjwatson: its not a factor of 1.024 its a factor of 7.3% for GB23:43
Keybukdisk marketing use 10^323:43
KeybukRAM still use 2^1023:43
calcwill be a factor of 10% for TB23:43
Keybukcalc: ?! it's a constant factor23:43
lamontcalc: and that's why marketing decided that they wanted to advertise the extra space, and that the error was becoming significant enough to care23:43
Keybukcalc: it's always a constant factor of 1000:102423:43
cjwatsonKeybuk: no, he's right23:43
calc1 TB hard drives are 1,000,000,000 Bytes23:43
Keybukhe is?23:43
cjwatsonKeybuk: 1024*1024*1024 vs. 1000*1000*100023:43
lamontKeybuk: yes23:44
calcthey round off decimal all the way23:44
ograion_, let me sleep a night over the modprobe.d thing ... beyond that i'm fie with the patch23:44
Keybukoh, of course23:44
Keybukit's nearly 2am here23:44
calcit will continue to increase the difference as sizes go up23:44
calcso for PB whenever they come around it will be 13% difference23:44
cjwatsonI'm still not going to change the unit expression in the partitioner. Sorry. People will complain either way round. I'm willing to make improvements to make it clearer what's going on.23:44
lamontKeybuk: and the most amusing part is that those of us who say GB when the pedants would say we need to use GiB, really just don't care about being off by 10%23:44
cjwatsonand just noticed that there's no way to force it to enter an exact number of bytes at the moment, so can fix that one23:45
pwnguinwell, as long as dd doesnt use anything but bytes, i think we'll live23:45
lamontcjwatson: clearer == better, I think23:45
lamontand yeah, there are much bigger fish to fry23:45
infinitycjwatson: Just change it to measure everything in UU (uber units) with a footnote explaining what that is, and why it's superior to kB, KB, and KiB combined.23:45
lamontinfinity: reminds me of SWU.23:46
Keybuklamont: my theory goes that as soon as you round to a GB, you no longer care about lost KB23:46
lamontKeybuk: exactly23:46
Keybukthe only thing I care about is that what our user interface states matches what the user sees on the box23:46
Keybukthus disk sizes should be reported in KB, MB and GB which are multiples of 1,00023:46
Keybukand RAM sizes reported in KB, MB and GB which are multiples of 1,02423:46
Chipzz00:27 < calc> perhaps a good solution for users would be to suggest the GB size to make their swap to actually match their ram size for suspend >> if you try to match those exactly, I think you've already lost anyway, since a swap partition includes a signature23:46
cjwatsonChipzz: it would make sense for there to be a check though23:47
cjwatsonwith appropriate fudges for such details23:47
lamontKeybuk: my RAM size is reported by bios units of 10^b23:50
lamontsee also maretroids23:51
Chipzzcjwatson: check as in checkbox?23:51
Keybuklamont: but it is bought in boxes with units of power-of-two bytes23:51
Keybukyou still buy a 2GB RAM stick, and it means 2*1024*1024*1024 bytes23:51
Chipzzcjwatson: the issue gets more hairy with filesystems, where the overhead is not of a fixed size23:52
lamontKeybuk: and then you boot he computer, and it tells you some other number of bytes23:52
Chipzzand to add up to that, you need to specify the size of the partition before you specify the type23:52
lamontand you wonder where the extra 100MB of space came from23:52
cjwatsonChipzz: hi, I'm grandma, perhaps you'd like to teach me to suck eggs ;)23:53
Keybuklamont: I don't see this as our problem23:53
ChipzzI don't think my grandma cares :)23:53
cjwatsonChipzz: a check as in a check, confirmation, if statement to confirm that swap is big enough to suspend into. I don't care about the tedious details for this purpose23:53
Chipzzin fact, we tried to explain on her on numerous occasions how to program a VCR, even written it down for her, and she still fails to do it :P23:54
cjwatsonChipzz: "teach grandma to suck eggs" => "explain in tedious detail to somebody who already knows"23:54
lamontKeybuk: eventually, someone in marketing will win an argument, and some memory maker will start selling 4.2GB sticks23:54
Chipzzcjwatson: ah yes :)23:54
* calc would be appeased if he could tell it somehow the exact size he wanted in bytes or GiB or whatever, GB is not exact when sectors are not in x^10 power23:55
lamontI predict it'll hit when it's 128GB vs 131GB, if not sooner23:55
calcor change sectors to be 10^3, 1000 byte per sector would work fine23:55
Chipzzanyway, my opinion on the matter is we should use 2^n, and the hard disc manufacturers can go **** themselves ;)23:55
calcdon't need pages anymore :)23:55
calclamont: maybe, but eventually it will stop unless someone releases a new decimal based cpu23:56
Chipzzactually I think some hard disc manufacturers already got sued over using 1000 instead of 102423:57
lamontcalc: decimal-based-cpu?  just use COBOL23:57
calclamont: well yea since pages, etc are binary sized23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!