| === Rafik_ is now known as Rafik | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jul 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 09 Jul 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 09 Jul 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 10 Jul 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 10 Jul 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile | 11 Jul 12:00 UTC: MOTU | ||
| === emonkey is now known as \emonkey | ||
| === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach | ||
| === Rafik_ is now known as Rafik | ||
| === ember_ is now known as ember | ||
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jul 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 09 Jul 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 10 Jul 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 10 Jul 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile | 11 Jul 12:00 UTC: MOTU | ||
| === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn | ||
| * ogasawara waves | 18:00 | |
| heno | hey | 18:00 |
|---|---|---|
| davmor2 | hello | 18:00 |
| * dholbach hugs the QA folks :) | 18:00 | |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jul 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 10 Jul 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 10 Jul 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile | 11 Jul 12:00 UTC: MOTU | ||
| bdmurray | hi | 18:00 |
| * heno hugs dholbach | 18:00 | |
| * davmor2 fights off dholbach's hugs | 18:00 | |
| dholbach | davmor2: that bad? :) | 18:01 |
| davmor2 | ;) | 18:01 |
| dholbach | ROCK ON everybody - see you tomorrow | 18:01 |
| bdmurray | tomorrow? | 18:01 |
| heno | sbeattie, ping? | 18:01 |
| sbeattie | heno pong | 18:02 |
| heno | sbeattie: hello :) | 18:02 |
| heno | we're just missing ara | 18:02 |
| heno | I'm not sue if pedro will make it | 18:03 |
| heno | being at GUADEC | 18:03 |
| heno | hey ara :) | 18:03 |
| ara | hey | 18:03 |
| heno | ok, let's start | 18:03 |
| heno | #startmeeting | 18:04 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is heno. | 18:04 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 18:04 |
| heno | [TOPIC]: Alpha 2 testing this week | 18:04 |
| MootBot | New Topic: : Alpha 2 testing this week | 18:04 |
| heno | being an early alpha testing will be light | 18:04 |
| heno | sbeattie: do you know how far along the images are? | 18:05 |
| davmor2 | heno: beings as live still doesn't work I think your right :) | 18:05 |
| heno | slangasek: ^ ? | 18:05 |
| * stgraber is sort of around | 18:05 | |
| slangasek | desktop images are still on the edge of being usable for alpha2; there's nothing there to be tested yet | 18:05 |
| heno | ok, thanks | 18:05 |
| slangasek | cjwatson is actively working on the ubiquity problems, and we also have to cope with the fact that recommends-by-default has made the ubuntu desktop image 80MB oversized - and kubuntu 200MB oversized :) | 18:06 |
| heno | heh | 18:06 |
| sbeattie | ouch | 18:06 |
| davmor2 | heno: it's true :) | 18:06 |
| ogra | people should use DVDRW for testing anyway :) | 18:06 |
| ogra | saver the environment ... | 18:06 |
| ogra | *save | 18:06 |
| heno | or usb thumb drives | 18:07 |
| ogra | yeh | 18:07 |
| ogra | +a | 18:07 |
| heno | so we'll test alternatives and desktops if they become available | 18:08 |
| heno | [TOPIC]: Package status prototype - feedback welcome | 18:08 |
| MootBot | New Topic: : Package status prototype - feedback welcome | 18:08 |
| davmor2 | heno: is this for release next thursday then? | 18:08 |
| heno | http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html | 18:08 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html | 18:08 |
| heno | davmor2: this thursday I think | 18:09 |
| davmor2 | might run out of testing time then :/ | 18:09 |
| davmor2 | :-/ | 18:09 |
| heno | davmor2: right, but we should just boot test them all | 18:10 |
| heno | and if there are no live CDs that makes it easier | 18:10 |
| davmor2 | I tried a live today it failed dismally | 18:10 |
| ara | but are the images already available? | 18:11 |
| afflux | hi! is it just me or do the alpha 2 images miss on the iso testing tracker? (are they even supposed to appear there?) | 18:11 |
| heno | I'm guessing we'll release alpha 2 without lives | 18:11 |
| afflux | (sorry if you discussed that earlier, I missed the start) | 18:12 |
| heno | the alternates should be posted | 18:12 |
| heno | slangasek: ^ agree? | 18:12 |
| slangasek | I think so, yes | 18:12 |
| davmor2 | the charts look great by the way. Will they be automated? | 18:13 |
| sbeattie | I see live cds on cdimages, I suspect they just don't work. | 18:13 |
| heno | sbeattie: can you update the tracker after the meeting? | 18:13 |
| heno | sbeattie: let me know if you need a hand | 18:13 |
| sbeattie | heno: yes, will do, can you action it? | 18:13 |
| slangasek | fwiw, nvidia-glx-new is uninstallable on the alternates because of the X changes, so that's a bug to highlight for testers I think | 18:13 |
| LaserJock | Leann's, pkg-stats pages are awesome! | 18:13 |
| heno | [ACTION]: sbeattie to update iso tracker for alpha 2 | 18:14 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: : sbeattie to update iso tracker for alpha 2 | 18:14 |
| LaserJock | ogasawara: great work! | 18:14 |
| heno | indeed! | 18:14 |
| davmor2 | slangasek: noted | 18:14 |
| heno | everyone check http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html | 18:14 |
| LaserJock | the one thing that struck me though | 18:15 |
| heno | bdmurray made the graphs | 18:15 |
| LaserJock | was that it is just bug "stuff" | 18:15 |
| LaserJock | wereas I'm sure developers/bug workers would probably like to see some information on the package itself | 18:15 |
| afflux | yup, looks cool. (though I thought we already had that kind of statistics, but I can't remember where...) | 18:15 |
| bdmurray | afflux: they aren't as detailed as this | 18:16 |
| heno | LaserJock: right, we'd love to get suggestions for that | 18:16 |
| afflux | I see | 18:16 |
| LaserJock | heno: at least links to Ubuntu/Debian changelogs, Ubuntu/Debian versions, links to package LP page and Debian PTS/BTS pages | 18:17 |
| heno | Development and Testing: should be a section separate from Bugs Info and have more items | 18:17 |
| heno | let's create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/PackageStatusPages/Feedback and add such items there | 18:18 |
| ogasawara | that'd be great. I'll try to knock out as many items as I can before the sprint next week | 18:18 |
| heno | how much of that overlaps with the LP package pages though? | 18:19 |
| LaserJock | heno: very little | 18:19 |
| heno | cool, we would like to add features not already on LP | 18:19 |
| LaserJock | some of the info you can get from the LP page, but you have to dig around | 18:19 |
| heno | and possibly later get them implemented there | 18:19 |
| davmor2 | heno: if the is an overlap you could just link to the lp page for the package | 18:19 |
| LaserJock | but for sure LP doesn't have any of the Debian info | 18:19 |
| heno | ok | 18:20 |
| sbeattie | Isn't some of this also aggregation of multiple packages in LP? e.g. "gnome" and "kde" will cover quite a few, no? | 18:20 |
| heno | yeah, this page should very much be tailored fot the audience: Ubuntu QA and dev | 18:20 |
| heno | ogasawara: will you start that page and collect the ideas? | 18:21 |
| ogasawara | heno: yup | 18:21 |
| sbeattie | do we want breakdowns by release? | 18:21 |
| LaserJock | sbeattie: yeah, both types of pages would be useful | 18:21 |
| heno | LaserJock: can you look over hat afterwards and add you thoughts? | 18:21 |
| LaserJock | heno: sure | 18:21 |
| heno | sbeattie: I'd like to have the option of historical look-back later too | 18:22 |
| heno | see the weekly graphs from 6 months ago, say | 18:22 |
| heno | sbeattie: are you thinking more of Hardy vs. Intrepid? | 18:22 |
| heno | so we can follow the LTS point releases, say? | 18:23 |
| sbeattie | yes, that too. historical comparisons are useful as well. | 18:23 |
| LaserJock | well, it would be nice to see if a particular releast/version is really getting a lot of bugs | 18:24 |
| heno | if anyone has further feedback please add it to the wiki | 18:25 |
| heno | [TOPIC]: Next week's meeting - suggestion: an in person meeting at the London sprint combined phone or skype for those who are not there at 14.00 UTC | 18:25 |
| MootBot | New Topic: : Next week's meeting - suggestion: an in person meeting at the London sprint combined phone or skype for those who are not there at 14.00 UTC | 18:25 |
| davmor2 | +1 | 18:26 |
| LaserJock | 14.00 UTC might allow some AU people to attend | 18:27 |
| heno | we'll have both a skype box with decent sound and a conference phone in the room | 18:27 |
| heno | LaserJock: will that be difficult for you? | 18:27 |
| * stgraber is afk now | 18:27 | |
| heno | you are US west coast, right? | 18:27 |
| LaserJock | not impossible for sure | 18:28 |
| cgregan | heno: I have the skype system all set here, and there is a teleconference install going on in the main conf room here as well | 18:28 |
| LaserJock | I think that's 7am local | 18:28 |
| heno | cgregan: excellent! | 18:28 |
| heno | how many people can be joined on a skype conference? | 18:28 |
| sbeattie | LaserJock: would 1400 UTC also let Persia attend? | 18:29 |
| heno | if we use that we don't need to distribute phone umbers and conf codes | 18:29 |
| LaserJock | sbeattie: perhaps so | 18:29 |
| heno | persia will be in Lexington | 18:29 |
| LaserJock | I can't say for sure | 18:29 |
| LaserJock | ah | 18:29 |
| heno | I assume | 18:30 |
| sbeattie | heno: just realized that. | 18:30 |
| cgregan | heno: I don't know. Our test yesterday was my first skype experience | 18:30 |
| heno | as will cgregan and ogasawara | 18:30 |
| heno | I'm sure google will tell us | 18:30 |
| davmor2 | cgregan: noob ;) | 18:30 |
| afflux | why not use mumble, it is opensource :P | 18:31 |
| heno | looks like 5 | 18:31 |
| * cgregan adds a dollar to his "shrine to the internet" | 18:31 | |
| davmor2 | use ekiga it on the desktop already :) | 18:31 |
| heno | or openwengo? | 18:31 |
| cgregan | davmor2: :-) | 18:31 |
| afflux | IIRC skype has some limitation about 5-8 people in one conference call | 18:31 |
| heno | I had issues with ekiga | 18:31 |
| * afflux too | 18:32 | |
| heno | but perhaps that was just me | 18:32 |
| cgregan | davmor2 and I have used audio only with success | 18:33 |
| * persia peers out from an insomaniacal state and wonders which 14:00 | 18:34 | |
| afflux | ekiga crashes on account setup for me :( | 18:34 |
| davmor2 | :) It was quite a good connection too :) | 18:34 |
| heno | persia: UTC during the sprint week | 18:34 |
| heno | cgregan: can we go through testing that between us? | 18:34 |
| cgregan | heno: sure | 18:35 |
| heno | if it works we'll use ekiga, if not phone | 18:35 |
| persia | Wednesday? | 18:35 |
| heno | persia: yes | 18:35 |
| davmor2 | heno: so that 15:00 uk time | 18:36 |
| persia | Ah. I've a standing meeting that day and time, and an additional conflict next week from 13:00 - 18:00 or so. | 18:36 |
| heno | davmor2: right | 18:36 |
| davmor2 | okay | 18:36 |
| heno | persia: that time block will be tough to work around for us | 18:37 |
| persia | heno: No worries. I'll read the minutes. | 18:37 |
| heno | but we'll be available the whole week by phone/skype | 18:37 |
| heno | ok, let's go with that time then | 18:38 |
| heno | we'll monitor IRC as well | 18:38 |
| heno | [TOPIC]: Ubuntu QA team update/proposal (LaserJock) | 18:38 |
| MootBot | New Topic: : Ubuntu QA team update/proposal (LaserJock) | 18:38 |
| LaserJock | ok, so a few things | 18:38 |
| LaserJock | I wrote up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha/UbuntuQA | 18:39 |
| LaserJock | which is hopefully a more thorough presentation of what I'm doing | 18:39 |
| heno | cool, thanks | 18:39 |
| davmor2 | I got to go now I'll catch up after | 18:39 |
| LaserJock | and so far the team has 7 members (https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa/+members) | 18:39 |
| LaserJock | and 4 bzr branches represting 4 different projects | 18:40 |
| LaserJock | I've been talking with lots of people | 18:40 |
| LaserJock | and trying to look at some QA needs around the community | 18:41 |
| LaserJock | so I think we're off to a good start | 18:42 |
| LaserJock | are there any questions about the wiki page? | 18:42 |
| bdmurray | what is a "relevant QA team"? | 18:42 |
| LaserJock | bugsquad, ubuntu-testing, ubuntu-dev, etc. | 18:43 |
| LaserJock | so I'd like to start pushing people towards the mailing list and doing some announcement/PR soon | 18:45 |
| heno | hm, i have to reboot, brb | 18:46 |
| sbeattie | LaserJock: nice, I think I'm mostly sold. | 18:46 |
| LaserJock | I'm sure there could be some refining around specifics, but hopefully it's good enough to get going | 18:47 |
| sbeattie | I would like to push a little bit on how we credit/reward people doing various elements of QA work. | 18:47 |
| heno | ... sorry about that | 18:47 |
| LaserJock | heno: np | 18:47 |
| LaserJock | sbeattie: yeah, that's something I think we'll have to work on some | 18:47 |
| LaserJock | I don't have any particularlly elegant propsals for that other than recognizing work that people are doing | 18:48 |
| sbeattie | I don't particularly have any good ideas (other than I want to be a level 10 QA Warlock) | 18:48 |
| LaserJock | having a team that's seeing what's going on around the QA universe, IMO, lends itself more to giving each other credit | 18:48 |
| LaserJock | for instance, ogasawara's work on that bug page is amazing | 18:49 |
| LaserJock | and I might not have noticed that if I hadn't been talking with her already and comming to the meeting, etc. | 18:49 |
| sbeattie | Sure, I think it's great, too, but generating webpages like is more interesting work than some of the grunt work the various QA teams do. | 18:51 |
| bryce | it might be interesting to ask existing volunteer triagers about what motivates them, and then seek ways to maximize that (or minimize inhibitors) | 18:51 |
| sbeattie | bryce: good idea | 18:52 |
| LaserJock | bryce: yeah, totally | 18:52 |
| heno | the people who have recently stepped up to organise bug days would be good candidates here | 18:52 |
| LaserJock | yes | 18:53 |
| heno | LaserJock: i appreciate that you have fleshed out the non-dev aspects a bit more | 18:53 |
| heno | and we can probably extend that further still | 18:53 |
| LaserJock | heno: yeah, I'm sorry that that came out too much last time. I'm come from a dev background and I'm afraid it showed | 18:53 |
| LaserJock | heno: yeah | 18:54 |
| heno | LaserJock: how do you see this team participating in the upcoming global bug jam for example | 18:54 |
| LaserJock | heno: well, hopefully that would be something that the Ubuntu QA would help organize and participate in | 18:55 |
| heno | that has a triage focus, but we can also benefit from dev involvement | 18:55 |
| cgregan | heno: LoCo maryland has asked me to do a talk on QA process for the Jam. | 18:55 |
| LaserJock | perhaps generating useful documentation and task-lists if needed | 18:56 |
| cgregan | We could do something like that but in the wiki or elsewhere...for a larger audience | 18:56 |
| heno | LaserJock: where would you like feedback on that writeup, in a comments section on the page, on an ML thread? | 18:57 |
| LaserJock | perhaps a thread on ubuntu-qa would be good, to get broader discussion | 18:57 |
| heno | ok, will you post and we can comment? | 18:57 |
| heno | and we'll talk about it at next week's meeting | 18:58 |
| LaserJock | ok | 18:58 |
| LaserJock | so I'm basically going to move forward with this this week | 18:58 |
| heno | perhaps we should propose some topics for that btw | 18:58 |
| LaserJock | and we can refine as we go | 18:58 |
| LaserJock | but I think we have consensus that we should move forward | 18:59 |
| heno | LaserJock: 'move forward' means announce more broadly, invite people to join, etc? | 18:59 |
| LaserJock | yes | 18:59 |
| LaserJock | I think the only real possible sticking point is the LP team name, and I'm confident that I/we can handle that | 19:00 |
| heno | there was actually an ubuntu-qa name before | 19:00 |
| heno | which was in effect bug-control | 19:00 |
| heno | and we changed the name to reduce confusion | 19:01 |
| LaserJock | yep | 19:01 |
| heno | but what we are talking about now fits the name better | 19:01 |
| LaserJock | I agree | 19:01 |
| heno | with the more inclusive view, I'm happy with the LP name | 19:02 |
| LaserJock | I'm up for trolling around the wiki and making appropriate changes | 19:02 |
| LaserJock | for non-trivial ones I'd email ubuntu-qa for discussion to make sure | 19:02 |
| heno | we should merge the LP team with the existing wiki/IRC/ML based team though | 19:02 |
| LaserJock | I basically agree | 19:03 |
| ara | heno: which irc channel? | 19:03 |
| heno | so we should stick to this meeting time, use the ML | 19:03 |
| LaserJock | I'm working on the IRC channel right now | 19:03 |
| ara | is there already a #ubuntu-qa ?? | 19:03 |
| heno | and probably set up #ubuntu-qa | 19:03 |
| ara | LaserJock: ok | 19:03 |
| LaserJock | apparently #ubuntu-qa is for the Qatar LoCo team | 19:03 |
| LaserJock | the IRC ops suggested #ubuntu-quality for lack of a better name | 19:04 |
| heno | nand: I'm also wondering if it's time to set up #ubuntu-brainstorm ? | 19:04 |
| LaserJock | any other suggestions? | 19:04 |
| sbeattie | LaserJock: we all have to move to Qatar? | 19:04 |
| LaserJock | sbeattie: hehe, yeah | 19:04 |
| ara | :D | 19:04 |
| LaserJock | and apparently anything #ubuntu-qa-* is owned by them as well | 19:05 |
| LaserJock | so we can't do #ubuntu-qa-team or such | 19:05 |
| heno | as it doesn't fit very well in #ubuntu-testing anymore | 19:05 |
| heno | -quality sounds fine | 19:06 |
| LaserJock | it's not quite a clear, IMO, but I think it's probably the best we can do | 19:06 |
| LaserJock | I guess we could always ask Qatar to rename itself :-) | 19:07 |
| bdmurray | qc? | 19:07 |
| heno | I wonder how active that chan is? | 19:07 |
| LaserJock | heno: it's not at all | 19:07 |
| LaserJock | there wasn't anybody in there when I went in | 19:08 |
| ara | bdmurray: i prefer -quality than -qc | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | I think the meaning of QA is more generally known than QC | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | I'm not sure that people would know what ubuntu-qc was | 19:08 |
| ara | LaserJock: i agree | 19:09 |
| cgregan | Is there a standard for "distro-group" or could it be qa-ubuntu? qa-canonical? | 19:09 |
| LaserJock | cgregan: well, I think generally they need to be *buntu-* | 19:09 |
| LaserJock | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/ChannelNaming | 19:09 |
| heno | is there even a Qatar team? The ubuntu-qa ML is us | 19:10 |
| ara | "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." | 19:10 |
| LaserJock | heno: it apparently doesn't matter if the team exists or is active. It's a blocked namespace | 19:10 |
| bdmurray | -qat? where t is for team? | 19:11 |
| sbeattie | cgregan: I particularly think we don't want *canonical*, as we want to make sure that it's clear that the intent is for this effort to not be exclusive to canonical employees. | 19:11 |
| LaserJock | I think #ubuntu-quality is probably our best bet | 19:11 |
| bdmurray | That's also a great scrabble word | 19:11 |
| cgregan | sbeattie: I know...just an example of layout not of content | 19:11 |
| heno | Ubuntu Qatar could just be very interested in quality and happen to not live in Qatar | 19:11 |
| LaserJock | lol | 19:12 |
| heno | let's go with #ubuntu-quality but set the topic in #ubuntu-qa to make accidental visitors aware of that | 19:12 |
| heno | if a Qatar team turns up and becomes active they can change the topic to something more appropriate | 19:13 |
| LaserJock | agreed | 19:14 |
| LaserJock | I'll set it up | 19:14 |
| ara | ok | 19:14 |
| heno | any other topics? | 19:14 |
| heno | ok, let's wrap up | 19:16 |
| heno | #endmeeting | 19:16 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 13:17. | 19:16 |
| heno | speak to most of you next week! | 19:16 |
| ara | sure! | 19:16 |
| ara | :) | 19:16 |
| sbeattie | thanks! | 19:16 |
| ara | thanks, bye | 19:17 |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jul 22:00 UTC: Platform Team | 10 Jul 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 10 Jul 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile | 11 Jul 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 12 Jul 13:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | ||
| === ember_ is now known as ember | ||
| === Moot2 is now known as MootBot | ||
| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| === Keybuk is now known as Guest62599 | ||
| === Keybuk_ is now known as Keybuk | ||
| calc | hi | 23:00 |
| evand | hi | 23:00 |
| TheMuso | Hi. | 23:00 |
| powitsjj | hello | 23:00 |
| * ogra waves | 23:00 | |
| === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jul 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 10 Jul 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile | 11 Jul 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 12 Jul 13:00 UTC: Xubuntu Community | ||
| * ArneGoetje yawns | 23:00 | |
| cjwatson | evening all | 23:00 |
| * TheMuso eats breakfast while he waits. | 23:00 | |
| powitsjj | is there hardware support in here? my friends wireless isnt working | 23:00 |
| liw | greetings and salutations | 23:00 |
| cjwatson | powitsjj: we're just getting started with a team meeting here; #ubuntu, please, or #ubuntu-kernel if necessary | 23:01 |
| powitsjj | thank you | 23:01 |
| slangasek | morning | 23:01 |
| * asac waves | 23:01 | |
| james_w | hi all | 23:01 |
| cjwatson | bryce,doko_: here? | 23:02 |
| bryce | heya | 23:02 |
| cjwatson | ok, let's start | 23:03 |
| cjwatson | first thing I wanted to raise was the upcoming sprint | 23:03 |
| cjwatson | you'll probably all appreciate me refraining from asking if you are pumped ;-) | 23:03 |
| TheMuso | heh | 23:04 |
| cjwatson | mostly, I want to make sure that everything on the 8.10 roadmap is suitably unblocked and capable of making progress for feature freeze | 23:04 |
| cjwatson | I have started on fleshing out a loose agenda, including some pairwork sessions on things that seem like they could benefit from that | 23:04 |
| cjwatson | but I'd appreciate suggestions, as we have a whole week :) | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | for convenience I'll paste what I've got here (also on https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Sprints/Intrepid/London for those with suitable access) | 23:05 |
| asac | pairwork sessions? | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | [bryce, this doesn't need to go in the minutes, it's just for convenience] | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | * Release status checkpoint across all teams (general progress on specs) | 23:05 |
| bryce | [gotcha] | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | * Revisit 8.04 post-mortem | 23:05 |
| cjwatson | * OpenJDK status call with David Herron and Dalibor Topic (Matthias, Colin, Arne?) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * Progress on TCK availability (Matthias, Colin, Mark M, Amanda) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * One-on-ones for each person transferring from desktop to platform (Colin, Scott, Michael) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * Pair-programming sessions: | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * font-selector (Arne, James) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * cleanup-cruft (Lars, Michael) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * get-rid-of-python-central-and-support (Lars, Matthias) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * Ubiquity for alpha-3, if it's still broken (Evan, Colin) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * python-memory-profiling-tool (Lars, volunteers?) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * translation-statistics (Arne, Colin) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * ... | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * CD sizing mini-sprint: Recommends et al (Steve, Colin, ...) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | * Policy manual progress and feedback (Colin, ...) | 23:06 |
| cjwatson | asac: ^- does that clarify? | 23:07 |
| * liw is multipaired | 23:07 | |
| asac | i think so | 23:07 |
| cjwatson | asac: I wondered if you wanted to work with Jonathan on the Firefox KDE integration stuff | 23:07 |
| cjwatson | more a desktopy kind of thing mind you | 23:07 |
| slangasek | get-rid-of-python-central-and-support scares me :( | 23:07 |
| calc | which michael is the one in the desktop to platform bit? | 23:08 |
| cjwatson | vogt | 23:08 |
| calc | ok | 23:08 |
| cjwatson | I think we only have one, unless I'm being remiss | 23:08 |
| calc | wasn't sure :) | 23:08 |
| cjwatson | slangasek: ... | 23:08 |
| liw | Martin is not yet one of the canonical Canonical names | 23:08 |
| liw | slangasek, I'm scared too, but the existence of the two scares me as well, so I'm pretty much scared | 23:09 |
| james_w | I'll be paring with Robert a fair bit I imagine, if he's still standing after this week. | 23:09 |
| asac | cjwatson: i have most information on kde available and a good upstream contact who offered to help in case i need more API support (scoll wheeler) | 23:09 |
| calc | esp doing that during a debian freeze, sounds like a lot of divergence(?) | 23:10 |
| asac | cjwatson: anyway, I think it makes sense to discuss the status with jonathan too | 23:10 |
| asac | most work is now mozilla coding | 23:10 |
| cjwatson | calc: we can of course prepare it but not deploy, if that turns out to make most sense | 23:10 |
| * calc has no idea what that actually entails just suggesting now might not be the best timing ;-) | 23:10 | |
| cjwatson | we've had rather a lot of bugs, and certainly a heck of a lot of complexity, from python-{central,support}, though | 23:10 |
| liw | calc, you sound like the people who told me that I should not rewrite the Linux kernel in Python for the Debian etch release :P | 23:11 |
| calc | liw: lol | 23:11 |
| slangasek | cjwatson: I think I'm concerned that replacing the helpers with a new solution is going to take a similarly long time to shake out all the bugs | 23:12 |
| TheMuso | And create a big delta with Debian for that matter. | 23:12 |
| slangasek | i.e., multiple release cycles | 23:12 |
| cjwatson | the release status checkpoint is one that I hope will be the first in a series of meetings throughout the rest of the release cycle, involving team leads and interested folks | 23:12 |
| slangasek | well, I assume that doko_ can handle bridging the delta with Debian, at least for the interpreter packages themselves | 23:12 |
| liw | slangasek, and don't forget the delta with upstream... | 23:13 |
| liw | it's scary and risky, but it's worth exploring, imho | 23:13 |
| cjwatson | slangasek: ok; I have it at medium priority, so I'm happy to defer to your judgement if you'd prefer not to take the risk for intrepid | 23:13 |
| calc | TheMuso: if it actually works the way it says in wiki, it would just involve a rebuild on the packages side, with no changes (probably won't work as smoothly in practice) | 23:13 |
| slangasek | cjwatson: well, it scares me in general - if it's going to be done, now's the time to start it | 23:14 |
| cjwatson | but it seems like a credible option that offers the promise of being simpler and more robust than what we have now, so I'd like to explore it in advance | 23:14 |
| slangasek | not, say, during the next LTS | 23:14 |
| cjwatson | right | 23:14 |
| calc | TheMuso: er i mean for the python coded packages, not the intrepreter itself | 23:14 |
| TheMuso | calc: Yeah I understood what you meant. | 23:14 |
| cjwatson | "in theory, theory and practice are the same thing" | 23:14 |
| calc | people tend to do weird things in rules files ;-) | 23:14 |
| slangasek | "in practice, AIIGH MY EYES" | 23:15 |
| * calc points at his 3600 line OOo rules file for example ;-) | 23:15 | |
| cjwatson | on the policy manual item, I have a git branch (hi, anyone who likes doing integration glue, I'd love a git->bzr import option that works, thanks!) of debian-policy into which I've imported most of UbuntuPackagingChanges | 23:16 |
| liw | . o O (these kinds of large, sweeping changes would be oh so much nicer to do if everything had test suites with good coverage) | 23:16 |
| cjwatson | I'd like to spend some time at the sprint with anyone who's interested in hashing out more standards text | 23:16 |
| liw | cjwatson, you mean "Ubuntu Policy"? | 23:17 |
| cjwatson | correct | 23:17 |
| cjwatson | ok, enough about the sprint, we'll have plenty of that next week; /msg or mail me any extra items you think of and I'll work them in | 23:18 |
| cjwatson | congratulations to the 8.04.1 team on delivering on-time, though I gather it was a bit of a crunch towards the end | 23:19 |
| cjwatson | has anyone had any interesting feedback on .1 that they'd like to share? | 23:19 |
| james_w | indeed, congratulations. | 23:19 |
| cjwatson | we will get a chance to remedy some things in six months' time | 23:19 |
| TheMuso | You can't garentee that users will help you work through bugs and get them fixed. :) | 23:20 |
| bryce | TheMuso: fussy users :-) | 23:20 |
| cjwatson | TheMuso: any more news on that bug? we put it in the release notes in the hope of scaring up more attention | 23:21 |
| TheMuso | cjwatson: Yeah I saw that, and while one person has reported back with no issues, thats nothing to go on to mov towards fixing it. | 23:21 |
| evand | Wubi once again bit us right at the end. | 23:21 |
| cjwatson | we need to lower that load for 8.10 somehow | 23:22 |
| cjwatson | evand: perhaps you should sit with the QA team and figure out how to get this more effectively tested | 23:22 |
| * TheMuso can step up and do more wubi testing. I would have if I hadn't had other things to worry about. | 23:23 | |
| evand | cjwatson: will do | 23:23 |
| calc | it seems that pulseaudio still has the hanging issue (caused by suspend/resume socket disappearing?) | 23:24 |
| liw | I've seen people suggest on various forums (not just ubuntu-devel-discuss) that we should do more thorough testing of the ISOs pre-release; it took quite a bit of time this time again, didn't it? longer/more test scenarios is going to make that slower, unless we find a lot of new testers | 23:24 |
| calc | my system hung yesterday | 23:24 |
| calc | well new apps starting hung | 23:24 |
| TheMuso | calc: I think that is to do with the actual hardware driver, but since I don't have that problem, I can't really look any further. | 23:25 |
| calc | oh ok | 23:25 |
| cjwatson | liw: yes, the eternal dilemma | 23:26 |
| stgraber | liw: same issue as usual, only < 10 testers are doing all the tests. So that's not a lot of different hardware and because of the short amount of time we have we can't try all weird setup ... | 23:26 |
| cjwatson | more thorough testing takes longer | 23:26 |
| cjwatson | TheMuso: perhaps you can poke at calc's system next week | 23:28 |
| liw | while it's not really platform's job to find them, it'd be cool if someone came up with ideas for attracting more people to test stuff | 23:28 |
| TheMuso | cjwatson: Thats certainly an option, however I am not yet sure what to look for, but I'll give it a shot. | 23:28 |
| calc | TheMuso: it doesn't happen really often but it did several times at UDS and again yesterday | 23:28 |
| cjwatson | liw: free beer and MOTASes | 23:28 |
| slangasek | masters of the... oh | 23:29 |
| TheMuso | calc: The plot thickens. | 23:29 |
| slangasek | :-) | 23:29 |
| liw | cjwatson, "Find a new bug in our ISO, and we'll send you a keg." -- that'd certainly attract a lot of people | 23:30 |
| cjwatson | liw: though seriously ... yes. um, maybe one answer would be for the development team to more actively prioritise bugs from well-known testers | 23:30 |
| cjwatson | which we sort of do anyway when they're serious, but not so much for the minor annoyances | 23:30 |
| cjwatson | the Donald Knuth approach works for less buggy software ... | 23:31 |
| liw | would it help to move the ISO testing activites from #ubuntu-testing to #ubuntu-devel to give them more exposure? | 23:31 |
| bryce | I'd doubt it | 23:31 |
| * stgraber doesn't think so | 23:32 | |
| cjwatson | it's possible; I think testers should still have their own forum where they can feel like they can witter in peace, but they should be welcome on #ubuntu-devel | 23:32 |
| bryce | I suspect reducing the barrier to entry would be the key thing | 23:32 |
| cjwatson | perhaps questions about specific problems should be encouraged to move from #ubuntu-testing to #ubuntu-devel if they can't easily be answered on the former. Does this already happen? | 23:32 |
| stgraber | #ubuntu-devel is usually busy enough near release time. -testing is better for discussing testing bugs (and VM bugs) | 23:32 |
| liw | (maybe we should discuss this at the sprint / mailing list, we only have an hour now) | 23:32 |
| cjwatson | Fixing the CD download problem is implicitly on the schedule, under the 8.04 post-mortem item | 23:33 |
| liw | cjwatson, that's obviously in dire need of fixing, yes | 23:33 |
| bryce | I suspect a lot of would-be testers get weeded out at the "download and burn an ISO" stage. I wonder if there could be improvements made at that layer | 23:33 |
| liw | having to wait for a couple of hours for ISOs to update over rsync before one can do anything is counter-produtive | 23:33 |
| cjwatson | I'll mail a chunk of this meeting log to Henrik and see if he wants to do something next week | 23:33 |
| TheMuso | liw: jigdo/local mirror/local cdimage setup FTW. :p | 23:34 |
| cjwatson | last thing I have is alpha-2 | 23:34 |
| slangasek | bryce: uh... shipit for beta releases? :) | 23:34 |
| stgraber | TheMuso: doesn't work with daily-live :) | 23:34 |
| bryce | e.g. if it were feasible to postal mail cd's/dvd's to testers... | 23:34 |
| bryce | slangasek: honestly I think it'd help! ;-) | 23:34 |
| TheMuso | stgraber: Not if you also build the livefs locally. :) | 23:34 |
| bryce | but postal delay would probably make it infeasible | 23:35 |
| cjwatson | bryce: (I'm happy to prioritise a small group somehow, be it that way (though I think it'd be too slow) or by some kind of privileged machine access) | 23:35 |
| calc | sometimes disk get regenerated multiple times in the same day | 23:35 |
| * cjwatson coughs and looks at his shell on antimony busy building live CDs | 23:35 | |
| TheMuso | But yes, being able to sync the images at a deacent speed would be preferable. | 23:35 |
| slangasek | yes; one option for improving our ability to test ISOs in advance of release is to have bug-free ISOs a full week before the release | 23:36 |
| stgraber | +1 on improving cdimage.u.c speed :) | 23:36 |
| bryce | for myself, I had intended to help with testing dvd's last go around, but download problems really hamstrung me | 23:36 |
| calc | the secret is download a few days early, then just rsync the minor differences | 23:36 |
| calc | the bandwidth is much better a few days before the announcements | 23:37 |
| bryce | mm, didn't know that trick | 23:37 |
| cjwatson | while this isn't helpful generally, if any Canonical folks want to get a leg-up on big downloads, the Millbank office has excellent bandwidth to the DC | 23:37 |
| cjwatson | slurp what you can and take it home | 23:37 |
| slangasek | right, so, alpha-2 - we have some rather infeasibly sized liveCDs right now, on both ubuntu and kubuntu; they're unlikely to get right-sized in time for alpha-2, so we should just expect to do DVD or VM testing for this round | 23:37 |
| slangasek | so that we start to get some feedback on the software on them, ignoring for the moment that the media is the wrong size | 23:38 |
| cjwatson | the build I'm doing should fix the fact that they fail to boot | 23:38 |
| slangasek | also a plus | 23:38 |
| slangasek | :) | 23:38 |
| cjwatson | (which was due to an option deep within busybox changing, thereby switching us over to klibc mount, thereby making mount syntax more restrictive, thereby breaking casper) | 23:38 |
| evand | there was the casper issue, but working around that I was unable to get into GNOME. cjwatson, is this latter bug what you speak of? | 23:39 |
| liw | I haven't yet been able to upgrade any of my VMs to intrepid, they fail to boot (crash in initramfs, typically) -- I gather other people are having better luck? | 23:39 |
| evand | ah, no it wasn't. | 23:39 |
| cjwatson | evand: it made it through to GNOME without problems for me | 23:39 |
| bryce | I've been able to upgrade to intrepid | 23:39 |
| evand | odd. | 23:39 |
| * evand kicks vmware | 23:39 | |
| cjwatson | liw: I'm sure several people would be happy to help debug crashes in initramfs | 23:39 |
| bryce | there's an X boot issue I know of where -vesa fails to work (other drivers seem ok) | 23:39 |
| liw | bryce, real hw or virtual? | 23:39 |
| cjwatson | myself included | 23:39 |
| bryce | liw, real | 23:39 |
| slangasek | liw: alpha-1 boots for me in vmware | 23:39 |
| * ogra upgraded kernel and initramfs-tools today to test the compcache changes ... apart from usplash being evil and missing firmware all is fine | 23:40 | |
| liw | cjwatson, sure, I just have't had the energy to start on this yet | 23:40 |
| slangasek | I think the kvm issue was one soren was working on | 23:40 |
| TheMuso | I installed alpha 1 on a box, and its up to date as of yesterday and boots fine. | 23:40 |
| cjwatson | liw: though kvm is known to have trouble booting intrepid guests | 23:40 |
| bryce | liw: due to X, I pretty much prefer doing all testing on real hardware | 23:40 |
| TheMuso | bryce: Sam here, but for being able to get sound. I'm pondering getting vmware so I can also have sound from the VM, but kvm is alright for now. | 23:40 |
| TheMuso | s/sam/same/ | 23:41 |
| liw | ok, I'm using kvm, so that's probably it, then; I'll ask #ubuntu-virt for advice later | 23:41 |
| TheMuso | Kvm itself can do sound, but libvirt doesn't yet support it. | 23:42 |
| cjwatson | I have nothing else; any other business? | 23:42 |
| bryce | btw, for those using kvm, there were some hacks I put into dexconf for Hardy that might not be necessary anymore. I *think* it may be possible to run X on kvm with no xorg.conf; I'd like to hear feedback one way or the other. | 23:42 |
| bryce | cjwatson: regarding last weeks action items - the two assigned to me have been done | 23:42 |
| TheMuso | cjwatson: Whats the story with us looking over the partner archive? We talked about it a few weeks back... | 23:42 |
| cjwatson | I'm not fussed about an explicit team meeting next week, though if people want one we can | 23:42 |
| cjwatson | TheMuso: oh yes, sorry, I'll send mail about that - meant to squeeze it in before this meeting | 23:42 |
| cjwatson | TheMuso: (and for the record it was last week ...) | 23:43 |
| bryce | cjwatson: I followed up on the libxcb issue, and think there's nothing to be done for now, but once upstream has a new libxcb package, we may want to revisit. | 23:43 |
| TheMuso | Ah yes it was too. | 23:43 |
| bryce | cjwatson: I am doubtful the new libxcb is going to be SRU-able, but we can see... | 23:43 |
| cjwatson | bryce: ok, thank you | 23:43 |
| bryce | cjwatson: second item - I mentioned this already on the mailing list, but I set up a milestone report | 23:43 |
| cjwatson | I saw your mail to -devel, thanks | 23:43 |
| cjwatson | and the milestone report is great, I had a look after seeing your report | 23:44 |
| cjwatson | how up-to-date is it? | 23:44 |
| bryce | http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Milestones/milestones_current.html | 23:44 |
| bryce | I set up a cron to update it every 6 hours | 23:44 |
| bryce | although I think it may take a day or two to get the cronjob working properly, | 23:45 |
| cjwatson | I think it will be my sole way to view the milestone list from now on | 23:45 |
| bryce | cool, let me know if there are improvements that would make it more useful (slangasek - you too) | 23:46 |
| bryce | when the new Launchpad JSON api's are available, I can probably recode things so it will work faster, and I can make the cron update more frequently | 23:47 |
| bryce | cjwatson: anyway, nothing else from me | 23:47 |
| cjwatson | right, I'm happy to call it a day here, then | 23:47 |
| bryce | thanks | 23:47 |
| liw | thanks, and good night | 23:48 |
| asac | thanks all | 23:48 |
| ArneGoetje | thanks | 23:48 |
| cjwatson | safe travels, everyone, and see you in London (with the exception of Oliver who'll be sorely missed but we'll see him by videoconference or whatever!) | 23:48 |
| TheMuso | Thanks, and see you all in London! | 23:48 |
| evand | thanks | 23:48 |
| slangasek | thanks, 'night :) | 23:48 |
| calc | bye | 23:48 |
| james_w | thanks all | 23:48 |
| === Rafik_ is now known as Rafik | ||
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