[18:00]  * ogasawara waves
[18:00] <heno> hey
[18:00] <davmor2> hello
[18:00]  * dholbach hugs the QA folks :)
[18:00] <bdmurray> hi
[18:00]  * heno hugs dholbach
[18:00]  * davmor2 fights off dholbach's hugs
[18:01] <dholbach> davmor2: that bad? :)
[18:01] <davmor2> ;)
[18:01] <dholbach> ROCK ON everybody - see you tomorrow
[18:01] <bdmurray> tomorrow?
[18:01] <heno> sbeattie, ping?
[18:02] <sbeattie> heno pong
[18:02] <heno> sbeattie: hello :)
[18:02] <heno> we're just missing ara
[18:03] <heno> I'm not sue if pedro will make it
[18:03] <heno> being at GUADEC
[18:03] <heno> hey ara :)
[18:03] <ara> hey
[18:03] <heno> ok, let's start
[18:04] <heno> #startmeeting
[18:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:05. The chair is heno.
[18:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:04] <heno> [TOPIC]: Alpha 2 testing this week
[18:04] <MootBot> New Topic: : Alpha 2 testing this week
[18:04] <heno> being an early alpha testing will be light
[18:05] <heno> sbeattie: do you know how far along the images are?
[18:05] <davmor2> heno: beings as live still doesn't work I think your right :)
[18:05] <heno> slangasek: ^ ?
[18:05]  * stgraber is sort of around
[18:05] <slangasek> desktop images are still on the edge of being usable for alpha2; there's nothing there to be tested yet
[18:05] <heno> ok, thanks
[18:06] <slangasek> cjwatson is actively working on the ubiquity problems, and we also have to cope with the fact that recommends-by-default has made the ubuntu desktop image 80MB oversized - and kubuntu 200MB oversized :)
[18:06] <heno> heh
[18:06] <sbeattie> ouch
[18:06] <davmor2> heno: it's true :)
[18:06] <ogra> people should use DVDRW for testing anyway :)
[18:06] <ogra> saver the environment ...
[18:06] <ogra> *save
[18:07] <heno> or usb thumb drives
[18:07] <ogra> yeh
[18:07] <ogra> +a
[18:08] <heno> so we'll test alternatives and desktops if they become available
[18:08] <heno> [TOPIC]: Package status prototype - feedback welcome
[18:08] <MootBot> New Topic: : Package status prototype - feedback welcome
[18:08] <davmor2> heno: is this for release next thursday then?
[18:08] <heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html
[18:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html
[18:09] <heno> davmor2: this thursday I think
[18:09] <davmor2> might run out of testing time then :/
[18:09] <davmor2> :-/
[18:10] <heno> davmor2: right, but we should just boot test them all
[18:10] <heno> and if there are no live CDs that makes it easier
[18:10] <davmor2> I tried a live today it failed dismally
[18:11] <ara> but are the images already available?
[18:11] <afflux> hi! is it just me or do the alpha 2 images miss on the iso testing tracker? (are they even supposed to appear there?)
[18:11] <heno> I'm guessing we'll release alpha 2 without lives
[18:12] <afflux> (sorry if you discussed that earlier, I missed the start)
[18:12] <heno> the alternates should be posted
[18:12] <heno> slangasek: ^ agree?
[18:12] <slangasek> I think so, yes
[18:13] <davmor2> the charts look great by the way.  Will they be automated?
[18:13] <sbeattie> I see live cds on cdimages, I suspect they just don't work.
[18:13] <heno> sbeattie: can you update the tracker after the meeting?
[18:13] <heno> sbeattie: let me know if you need a hand
[18:13] <sbeattie> heno: yes, will do, can you action it?
[18:13] <slangasek> fwiw, nvidia-glx-new is uninstallable on the alternates because of the X changes, so that's a bug to highlight for testers I think
[18:13] <LaserJock> Leann's, pkg-stats pages are awesome!
[18:14] <heno> [ACTION]: sbeattie to update iso tracker for alpha 2
[18:14] <MootBot> ACTION received: : sbeattie to update iso tracker for alpha 2
[18:14] <LaserJock> ogasawara: great work!
[18:14] <heno> indeed!
[18:14] <davmor2> slangasek: noted
[18:14] <heno> everyone check http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/pkg-stats/openoffice.org.html
[18:15] <LaserJock> the one thing that struck me though
[18:15] <heno> bdmurray made the graphs
[18:15] <LaserJock> was that it is just bug "stuff"
[18:15] <LaserJock> wereas I'm sure developers/bug workers would probably like to see some information on the package itself
[18:15] <afflux> yup, looks cool. (though I thought we already had that kind of statistics, but I can't remember where...)
[18:16] <bdmurray> afflux: they aren't as detailed as this
[18:16] <heno> LaserJock: right, we'd love to get suggestions for that
[18:16] <afflux> I see
[18:17] <LaserJock> heno: at least links to Ubuntu/Debian changelogs, Ubuntu/Debian versions, links to package LP page and Debian PTS/BTS pages
[18:17] <heno> Development and Testing: should be a section separate from Bugs Info and have more items
[18:18] <heno> let's create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/PackageStatusPages/Feedback and add such items there
[18:18] <ogasawara> that'd be great.  I'll try to knock out as many items as I can before the sprint next week
[18:19] <heno> how much of that overlaps with the LP package pages though?
[18:19] <LaserJock> heno: very little
[18:19] <heno> cool, we would like to add features not already on LP
[18:19] <LaserJock> some of the info you can get from the LP page, but you have to dig around
[18:19] <heno> and possibly later get them implemented there
[18:19] <davmor2> heno: if the is an overlap you could just link to the lp page for the package
[18:19] <LaserJock> but for sure LP doesn't have any of the Debian info
[18:20] <heno> ok
[18:20] <sbeattie> Isn't some of this also aggregation of multiple packages in LP? e.g. "gnome" and "kde" will cover quite a few, no?
[18:20] <heno> yeah, this page should very much be tailored fot the audience: Ubuntu QA and dev
[18:21] <heno> ogasawara: will you start that page and collect the ideas?
[18:21] <ogasawara> heno:  yup
[18:21] <sbeattie> do we want breakdowns by release?
[18:21] <LaserJock> sbeattie: yeah, both types of pages would be useful
[18:21] <heno> LaserJock: can you look over hat afterwards and add you thoughts?
[18:21] <LaserJock> heno: sure
[18:22] <heno> sbeattie: I'd like to have the option of historical look-back later too
[18:22] <heno> see the weekly graphs from 6 months ago, say
[18:22] <heno> sbeattie: are you thinking more of Hardy vs. Intrepid?
[18:23] <heno> so we can follow the LTS point releases, say?
[18:23] <sbeattie> yes, that too. historical comparisons are useful as well.
[18:24] <LaserJock> well, it would be nice to see if a particular releast/version is really getting a lot of bugs
[18:25] <heno> if anyone has further feedback please add it to the wiki
[18:25] <heno> [TOPIC]: Next week's meeting - suggestion: an in person meeting at the London sprint combined phone or skype for those who are not there at 14.00 UTC
[18:25] <MootBot> New Topic: : Next week's meeting - suggestion: an in person meeting at the London sprint combined phone or skype for those who are not there at 14.00 UTC
[18:26] <davmor2> +1
[18:27] <LaserJock> 14.00 UTC might allow some AU people to attend
[18:27] <heno> we'll have both a skype box with decent sound and a conference phone in the room
[18:27] <heno> LaserJock: will that be difficult for you?
[18:27]  * stgraber is afk now
[18:27] <heno> you are US west coast, right?
[18:28] <LaserJock> not impossible for sure
[18:28] <cgregan> heno: I have the skype system all set here, and there is a teleconference install going on in the main conf room here as well
[18:28] <LaserJock> I think that's 7am local
[18:28] <heno> cgregan: excellent!
[18:28] <heno> how many people can be joined on a skype conference?
[18:29] <sbeattie> LaserJock: would 1400 UTC also let Persia attend?
[18:29] <heno> if we use that we don't need to distribute phone umbers and conf codes
[18:29] <LaserJock> sbeattie: perhaps so
[18:29] <heno> persia will be in Lexington
[18:29] <LaserJock> I can't say for sure
[18:29] <LaserJock> ah
[18:30] <heno> I assume
[18:30] <sbeattie> heno: just realized that.
[18:30] <cgregan> heno: I don't know. Our test yesterday was my first skype experience
[18:30] <heno> as will cgregan and ogasawara
[18:30] <heno> I'm sure google will tell us
[18:30] <davmor2> cgregan: noob ;)
[18:31] <afflux> why not use mumble, it is opensource :P
[18:31] <heno> looks like 5
[18:31]  * cgregan adds a dollar to his "shrine to the internet"
[18:31] <davmor2> use ekiga it on the desktop already :)
[18:31] <heno> or openwengo?
[18:31] <cgregan> davmor2: :-)
[18:31] <afflux> IIRC skype has some limitation about 5-8 people in one conference call
[18:31] <heno> I had issues with ekiga
[18:32]  * afflux too
[18:32] <heno> but perhaps that was just me
[18:33] <cgregan> davmor2 and I have used audio only with success
[18:34]  * persia peers out from an insomaniacal state and wonders which 14:00
[18:34] <afflux> ekiga crashes on account setup for me :(
[18:34] <davmor2> :) It was quite a good connection too :)
[18:34] <heno> persia: UTC during the sprint week
[18:34] <heno> cgregan: can we go through testing that between us?
[18:35] <cgregan> heno: sure
[18:35] <heno> if it works we'll use ekiga, if not phone
[18:35] <persia> Wednesday?
[18:35] <heno> persia: yes
[18:36] <davmor2> heno: so that 15:00 uk time
[18:36] <persia> Ah.  I've a standing meeting that day and time, and an additional conflict next week from 13:00 - 18:00 or so.
[18:36] <heno> davmor2: right
[18:36] <davmor2> okay
[18:37] <heno> persia: that time block will be tough to work around for us
[18:37] <persia> heno: No worries.  I'll read the minutes.
[18:37] <heno> but we'll be available the whole week by phone/skype
[18:38] <heno> ok, let's go with that time then
[18:38] <heno> we'll monitor IRC as well
[18:38] <heno> [TOPIC]: Ubuntu QA team update/proposal (LaserJock)
[18:38] <MootBot> New Topic: : Ubuntu QA team update/proposal (LaserJock)
[18:38] <LaserJock> ok, so a few things
[18:39] <LaserJock> I wrote up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanMantha/UbuntuQA
[18:39] <LaserJock> which is hopefully a more thorough presentation of what I'm doing
[18:39] <heno> cool, thanks
[18:39] <davmor2> I got to go now I'll catch up after
[18:39] <LaserJock> and so far the team has 7 members (https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa/+members)
[18:40] <LaserJock> and 4 bzr branches represting 4 different projects
[18:40] <LaserJock> I've been talking with lots of people
[18:41] <LaserJock> and trying to look at some QA needs around the community
[18:42] <LaserJock> so I think we're off to a good start
[18:42] <LaserJock> are there any questions about the wiki page?
[18:42] <bdmurray> what is a "relevant QA team"?
[18:43] <LaserJock> bugsquad, ubuntu-testing, ubuntu-dev, etc.
[18:45] <LaserJock> so I'd like to start pushing people towards the mailing list and doing some announcement/PR soon
[18:46] <heno> hm, i have to reboot, brb
[18:46] <sbeattie> LaserJock: nice, I think I'm mostly sold.
[18:47] <LaserJock> I'm sure there could be some refining around specifics, but hopefully it's good enough to get going
[18:47] <sbeattie> I would like to push a little bit on how we credit/reward people doing various elements of QA work.
[18:47] <heno> ... sorry about that
[18:47] <LaserJock> heno: np
[18:47] <LaserJock> sbeattie: yeah, that's something I think we'll have to work on some
[18:48] <LaserJock> I don't have any particularlly elegant propsals for that other than recognizing work that people are doing
[18:48] <sbeattie> I don't particularly have any good ideas (other than I want to be a level 10 QA Warlock)
[18:48] <LaserJock> having a team that's seeing what's going on around the QA universe, IMO, lends itself more to giving each other credit
[18:49] <LaserJock> for instance, ogasawara's work on that bug page is amazing
[18:49] <LaserJock> and I might not have noticed that if I hadn't been talking with her already and comming to the meeting, etc.
[18:51] <sbeattie> Sure, I think it's great, too, but generating webpages like is more interesting work than some of the grunt work the various QA teams do.
[18:51] <bryce> it might be interesting to ask existing volunteer triagers about what motivates them, and then seek ways to maximize that (or minimize inhibitors)
[18:52] <sbeattie> bryce: good idea
[18:52] <LaserJock> bryce: yeah, totally
[18:52] <heno> the people who have recently stepped up to organise bug days would be good candidates here
[18:53] <LaserJock> yes
[18:53] <heno> LaserJock: i appreciate that you have fleshed out the non-dev aspects a bit more
[18:53] <heno> and we can probably extend that further still
[18:53] <LaserJock> heno: yeah, I'm sorry that that came out too much last time. I'm come from a dev background and I'm afraid it showed
[18:54] <LaserJock> heno: yeah
[18:54] <heno> LaserJock: how do you see this team participating in the upcoming global bug jam for example
[18:55] <LaserJock> heno: well, hopefully that would be something that the Ubuntu QA would help organize and participate in
[18:55] <heno> that has a triage focus, but we can also benefit from dev involvement
[18:55] <cgregan> heno: LoCo maryland has asked me to do a talk on QA process for the Jam.
[18:56] <LaserJock> perhaps generating useful documentation and task-lists if needed
[18:56] <cgregan> We could do something like that but in the wiki or elsewhere...for a larger audience
[18:57] <heno> LaserJock: where would you like feedback on that writeup, in a comments section on the page, on an ML thread?
[18:57] <LaserJock> perhaps a thread on ubuntu-qa would be good, to get broader discussion
[18:57] <heno> ok, will you post and we can comment?
[18:58] <heno> and we'll talk about it at next week's meeting
[18:58] <LaserJock> ok
[18:58] <LaserJock> so I'm basically going to move forward with this this week
[18:58] <heno> perhaps we should propose some topics for that btw
[18:58] <LaserJock> and we can refine as we go
[18:59] <LaserJock> but I think we have consensus that we should move forward
[18:59] <heno> LaserJock: 'move forward' means announce more broadly, invite people to join, etc?
[18:59] <LaserJock> yes
[19:00] <LaserJock> I think the only real possible sticking point is the LP team name, and I'm confident that I/we can handle that
[19:00] <heno> there was actually an ubuntu-qa name before
[19:00] <heno> which was in effect bug-control
[19:01] <heno> and we changed the name to reduce confusion
[19:01] <LaserJock> yep
[19:01] <heno> but what we are talking about now fits the name better
[19:01] <LaserJock> I agree
[19:02] <heno> with the more inclusive view, I'm happy with the LP name
[19:02] <LaserJock> I'm up for trolling around the wiki and making appropriate changes
[19:02] <LaserJock> for non-trivial ones I'd email ubuntu-qa for discussion to make sure
[19:02] <heno> we should merge the LP team with the existing wiki/IRC/ML based team though
[19:03] <LaserJock> I basically agree
[19:03] <ara> heno: which irc channel?
[19:03] <heno> so we should stick to this meeting time, use the ML
[19:03] <LaserJock> I'm working on the IRC channel right now
[19:03] <ara> is there already a #ubuntu-qa ??
[19:03] <heno> and probably set up #ubuntu-qa
[19:03] <ara> LaserJock: ok
[19:03] <LaserJock> apparently #ubuntu-qa is for the Qatar LoCo team
[19:04] <LaserJock> the IRC ops suggested #ubuntu-quality for lack of a better name
[19:04] <heno> nand: I'm also wondering if it's time to set up #ubuntu-brainstorm ?
[19:04] <LaserJock> any other suggestions?
[19:04] <sbeattie> LaserJock: we all have to move to Qatar?
[19:04] <LaserJock> sbeattie: hehe, yeah
[19:04] <ara> :D
[19:05] <LaserJock> and apparently anything #ubuntu-qa-* is owned by them as well
[19:05] <LaserJock> so we can't do #ubuntu-qa-team or such
[19:05] <heno> as it doesn't fit very well in #ubuntu-testing anymore
[19:06] <heno> -quality sounds fine
[19:06] <LaserJock> it's not quite a clear, IMO, but I think it's probably the best we can do
[19:07] <LaserJock> I guess we could always ask Qatar to rename itself :-)
[19:07] <bdmurray> qc?
[19:07] <heno> I wonder how active that chan is?
[19:07] <LaserJock> heno: it's not at all
[19:08] <LaserJock> there wasn't anybody in there when I went in
[19:08] <ara> bdmurray: i prefer -quality than -qc
[19:08] <LaserJock> I think the meaning of QA is more generally known than QC
[19:08] <LaserJock> I'm not sure that people would know what ubuntu-qc was
[19:09] <ara> LaserJock: i agree
[19:09] <cgregan> Is there a standard for "distro-group" or could it be qa-ubuntu? qa-canonical?
[19:09] <LaserJock> cgregan: well, I think generally they need to be *buntu-*
[19:09] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/ChannelNaming
[19:10] <heno> is there even a Qatar team? The ubuntu-qa ML is us
[19:10] <ara>  "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet."
[19:10] <LaserJock> heno: it apparently doesn't matter if the team exists or is active. It's a blocked namespace
[19:11] <bdmurray> -qat? where t is for team?
[19:11] <sbeattie> cgregan: I particularly think we don't want *canonical*, as we want to make sure that it's clear that the intent is for this effort to not be exclusive to canonical employees.
[19:11] <LaserJock> I think #ubuntu-quality is probably our best bet
[19:11] <bdmurray> That's also a great scrabble word
[19:11] <cgregan> sbeattie: I know...just an example of layout not of content
[19:11] <heno> Ubuntu Qatar could just be very interested in quality and happen to not live in Qatar
[19:12] <LaserJock> lol
[19:12] <heno> let's go with #ubuntu-quality but set the topic in #ubuntu-qa to make accidental visitors aware of that
[19:13] <heno> if a Qatar team turns up and becomes active they can change the topic to something more appropriate
[19:14] <LaserJock> agreed
[19:14] <LaserJock> I'll set it up
[19:14] <ara> ok
[19:14] <heno> any other topics?
[19:16] <heno> ok, let's wrap up
[19:16] <heno> #endmeeting
[19:16] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:17.
[19:16] <heno> speak to most of you next week!
[19:16] <ara> sure!
[19:16] <ara> :)
[19:16] <sbeattie> thanks!
[19:17] <ara> thanks, bye
[23:00] <calc> hi
[23:00] <evand> hi
[23:00] <TheMuso> Hi.
[23:00] <powitsjj> hello
[23:00]  * ogra waves
[23:00]  * ArneGoetje yawns
[23:00] <cjwatson> evening all
[23:00]  * TheMuso eats breakfast while he waits.
[23:00] <powitsjj> is there hardware support in here?  my friends wireless isnt working
[23:00] <liw> greetings and salutations
[23:01] <cjwatson> powitsjj: we're just getting started with a team meeting here; #ubuntu, please, or #ubuntu-kernel if necessary
[23:01] <powitsjj> thank you
[23:01] <slangasek> morning
[23:01]  * asac waves
[23:01] <james_w> hi all
[23:02] <cjwatson> bryce,doko_: here?
[23:02] <bryce> heya
[23:03] <cjwatson> ok, let's start
[23:03] <cjwatson> first thing I wanted to raise was the upcoming sprint
[23:03] <cjwatson> you'll probably all appreciate me refraining from asking if you are pumped ;-)
[23:04] <TheMuso> heh
[23:04] <cjwatson> mostly, I want to make sure that everything on the 8.10 roadmap is suitably unblocked and capable of making progress for feature freeze
[23:04] <cjwatson> I have started on fleshing out a loose agenda, including some pairwork sessions on things that seem like they could benefit from that
[23:05] <cjwatson> but I'd appreciate suggestions, as we have a whole week :)
[23:05] <cjwatson> for convenience I'll paste what I've got here (also on https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Sprints/Intrepid/London for those with suitable access)
[23:05] <asac> pairwork sessions?
[23:05] <cjwatson> [bryce, this doesn't need to go in the minutes, it's just for convenience]
[23:05] <cjwatson>  * Release status checkpoint across all teams (general progress on specs)
[23:05] <bryce> [gotcha]
[23:05] <cjwatson>  * Revisit 8.04 post-mortem
[23:06] <cjwatson>  * OpenJDK status call with David Herron and Dalibor Topic (Matthias, Colin, Arne?)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * Progress on TCK availability (Matthias, Colin, Mark M, Amanda)
[23:06] <cjwatson>  * One-on-ones for each person transferring from desktop to platform (Colin, Scott, Michael)
[23:06] <cjwatson>  * Pair-programming sessions:
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * font-selector (Arne, James)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * cleanup-cruft (Lars, Michael)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * get-rid-of-python-central-and-support (Lars, Matthias)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * Ubiquity for alpha-3, if it's still broken (Evan, Colin)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * python-memory-profiling-tool (Lars, volunteers?)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * translation-statistics (Arne, Colin)
[23:06] <cjwatson>   * ...
[23:06] <cjwatson>  * CD sizing mini-sprint: Recommends et al (Steve, Colin, ...)
[23:06] <cjwatson>  * Policy manual progress and feedback (Colin, ...)
[23:07] <cjwatson> asac: ^- does that clarify?
[23:07]  * liw is multipaired
[23:07] <asac> i think so
[23:07] <cjwatson> asac: I wondered if you wanted to work with Jonathan on the Firefox KDE integration stuff
[23:07] <cjwatson> more a desktopy kind of thing mind you
[23:07] <slangasek> get-rid-of-python-central-and-support scares me :(
[23:08] <calc> which michael is the one in the desktop to platform bit?
[23:08] <cjwatson> vogt
[23:08] <calc> ok
[23:08] <cjwatson> I think we only have one, unless I'm being remiss
[23:08] <calc> wasn't sure :)
[23:08] <cjwatson> slangasek: ...
[23:08] <liw> Martin is not yet one of the canonical Canonical names
[23:09] <liw> slangasek, I'm scared too, but the existence of the two scares me as well, so I'm pretty much scared
[23:09] <james_w> I'll be paring with Robert a fair bit I imagine, if he's still standing after this week.
[23:09] <asac> cjwatson: i have most information on kde available and a good upstream contact who offered to help in case i need more API support (scoll wheeler)
[23:10] <calc> esp doing that during a debian freeze, sounds like a lot of divergence(?)
[23:10] <asac> cjwatson: anyway, I think it makes sense to discuss the status with jonathan too
[23:10] <asac> most work is now mozilla coding
[23:10] <cjwatson> calc: we can of course prepare it but not deploy, if that turns out to make most sense
[23:10]  * calc has no idea what that actually entails just suggesting now might not be the best timing ;-)
[23:10] <cjwatson> we've had rather a lot of bugs, and certainly a heck of a lot of complexity, from python-{central,support}, though
[23:11] <liw> calc, you sound like the people who told me that I should not rewrite the Linux kernel in Python for the Debian etch release :P
[23:11] <calc> liw: lol
[23:12] <slangasek> cjwatson: I think I'm concerned that replacing the helpers with a new solution is going to take a similarly long time to shake out all the bugs
[23:12] <TheMuso> And create a big delta with Debian for that matter.
[23:12] <slangasek> i.e., multiple release cycles
[23:12] <cjwatson> the release status checkpoint is one that I hope will be the first in a series of meetings throughout the rest of the release cycle, involving team leads and interested folks
[23:12] <slangasek> well, I assume that doko_ can handle bridging the delta with Debian, at least for the interpreter packages themselves
[23:13] <liw> slangasek, and don't forget the delta with upstream...
[23:13] <liw> it's scary and risky, but it's worth exploring, imho
[23:13] <cjwatson> slangasek: ok; I have it at medium priority, so I'm happy to defer to your judgement if you'd prefer not to take the risk for intrepid
[23:13] <calc> TheMuso: if it actually works the way it says in wiki, it would just involve a rebuild on the packages side, with no changes (probably won't work as smoothly in practice)
[23:14] <slangasek> cjwatson: well, it scares me in general - if it's going to be done, now's the time to start it
[23:14] <cjwatson> but it seems like a credible option that offers the promise of being simpler and more robust than what we have now, so I'd like to explore it in advance
[23:14] <slangasek> not, say, during the next LTS
[23:14] <cjwatson> right
[23:14] <calc> TheMuso: er i mean for the python coded packages, not the intrepreter itself
[23:14] <TheMuso> calc: Yeah I understood what you meant.
[23:14] <cjwatson> "in theory, theory and practice are the same thing"
[23:14] <calc> people tend to do weird things in rules files ;-)
[23:15] <slangasek> "in practice, AIIGH MY EYES"
[23:15]  * calc points at his 3600 line OOo rules file for example ;-)
[23:16] <cjwatson> on the policy manual item, I have a git branch (hi, anyone who likes doing integration glue, I'd love a git->bzr import option that works, thanks!) of debian-policy into which I've imported most of UbuntuPackagingChanges
[23:16] <liw> . o O (these kinds of large, sweeping changes would be oh so much nicer to do if everything had test suites with good coverage)
[23:16] <cjwatson> I'd like to spend some time at the sprint with anyone who's interested in hashing out more standards text
[23:17] <liw> cjwatson, you mean "Ubuntu Policy"?
[23:17] <cjwatson> correct
[23:18] <cjwatson> ok, enough about the sprint, we'll have plenty of that next week; /msg or mail me any extra items you think of and I'll work them in
[23:19] <cjwatson> congratulations to the 8.04.1 team on delivering on-time, though I gather it was a bit of a crunch towards the end
[23:19] <cjwatson> has anyone had any interesting feedback on .1 that they'd like to share?
[23:19] <james_w> indeed, congratulations.
[23:19] <cjwatson> we will get a chance to remedy some things in six months' time
[23:20] <TheMuso> You can't garentee that users will help you work through bugs and get them fixed. :)
[23:20] <bryce> TheMuso: fussy users :-)
[23:21] <cjwatson> TheMuso: any more news on that bug? we put it in the release notes in the hope of scaring up more attention
[23:21] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Yeah I saw that, and while one person has reported back with no issues, thats nothing to go on to mov towards fixing it.
[23:21] <evand> Wubi once again bit us right at the end.
[23:22] <cjwatson> we need to lower that load for 8.10 somehow
[23:22] <cjwatson> evand: perhaps you should sit with the QA team and figure out how to get this more effectively tested
[23:23]  * TheMuso can step up and do more wubi testing. I would have if I hadn't had other things to worry about.
[23:23] <evand> cjwatson: will do
[23:24] <calc> it seems that pulseaudio still has the hanging issue (caused by suspend/resume socket disappearing?)
[23:24] <liw> I've seen people suggest on various forums (not just ubuntu-devel-discuss) that we should do more thorough testing of the ISOs pre-release; it took quite a bit of time this time again, didn't it? longer/more test scenarios is going to make that slower, unless we find a lot of new testers
[23:24] <calc> my system hung yesterday
[23:24] <calc> well new apps starting hung
[23:25] <TheMuso> calc: I think that is to do with the actual hardware driver, but since I don't have that problem, I can't really look any further.
[23:25] <calc> oh ok
[23:26] <cjwatson> liw: yes, the eternal dilemma
[23:26] <stgraber> liw: same issue as usual, only < 10 testers are doing all the tests. So that's not a lot of different hardware and because of the short amount of time we have we can't try all weird setup ...
[23:26] <cjwatson> more thorough testing takes longer
[23:28] <cjwatson> TheMuso: perhaps you can poke at calc's system next week
[23:28] <liw> while it's not really platform's job to find them, it'd be cool if someone came up with ideas for attracting more people to test stuff
[23:28] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Thats certainly an option, however I am not yet sure what to look for, but I'll give it a shot.
[23:28] <calc> TheMuso: it doesn't happen really often but it did several times at UDS and again yesterday
[23:28] <cjwatson> liw: free beer and MOTASes
[23:29] <slangasek> masters of the... oh
[23:29] <TheMuso> calc: The plot thickens.
[23:29] <slangasek> :-)
[23:30] <liw> cjwatson, "Find a new bug in our ISO, and we'll send you a keg." -- that'd certainly attract a lot of people
[23:30] <cjwatson> liw: though seriously ... yes. um, maybe one answer would be for the development team to more actively prioritise bugs from well-known testers
[23:30] <cjwatson> which we sort of do anyway when they're serious, but not so much for the minor annoyances
[23:31] <cjwatson> the Donald Knuth approach works for less buggy software ...
[23:31] <liw> would it help to move the ISO testing activites from #ubuntu-testing to #ubuntu-devel to give them more exposure?
[23:31] <bryce> I'd doubt it
[23:32]  * stgraber doesn't think so
[23:32] <cjwatson> it's possible; I think testers should still have their own forum where they can feel like they can witter in peace, but they should be welcome on #ubuntu-devel
[23:32] <bryce> I suspect reducing the barrier to entry would be the key thing
[23:32] <cjwatson> perhaps questions about specific problems should be encouraged to move from #ubuntu-testing to #ubuntu-devel if they can't easily be answered on the former. Does this already happen?
[23:32] <stgraber> #ubuntu-devel is usually busy enough near release time. -testing is better for discussing testing bugs (and VM bugs)
[23:32] <liw> (maybe we should discuss this at the sprint / mailing list, we only have an hour now)
[23:33] <cjwatson> Fixing the CD download problem is implicitly on the schedule, under the 8.04 post-mortem item
[23:33] <liw> cjwatson, that's obviously in dire need of fixing, yes
[23:33] <bryce> I suspect a lot of would-be testers get weeded out at the "download and burn an ISO" stage.  I wonder if there could be improvements made at that layer
[23:33] <liw> having to wait for a couple of hours for ISOs to update over rsync before one can do anything is counter-produtive
[23:33] <cjwatson> I'll mail a chunk of this meeting log to Henrik and see if he wants to do something next week
[23:34] <TheMuso> liw: jigdo/local mirror/local cdimage setup FTW. :p
[23:34] <cjwatson> last thing I have is alpha-2
[23:34] <slangasek> bryce: uh... shipit for beta releases? :)
[23:34] <stgraber> TheMuso: doesn't work with daily-live :)
[23:34] <bryce> e.g. if it were feasible to postal mail cd's/dvd's to testers...
[23:34] <bryce> slangasek: honestly I think it'd help!  ;-)
[23:34] <TheMuso> stgraber: Not if you also build the livefs locally. :)
[23:35] <bryce> but postal delay would probably make it infeasible
[23:35] <cjwatson> bryce: (I'm happy to prioritise a small group somehow, be it that way (though I think it'd be too slow) or by some kind of privileged machine access)
[23:35] <calc> sometimes disk get regenerated multiple times in the same day
[23:35]  * cjwatson coughs and looks at his shell on antimony busy building live CDs
[23:35] <TheMuso> But yes, being able to sync the images at a deacent speed would be preferable.
[23:36] <slangasek> yes; one option for improving our ability to test ISOs in advance of release is to have bug-free ISOs a full week before the release
[23:36] <stgraber> +1 on improving cdimage.u.c speed :)
[23:36] <bryce> for myself, I had intended to help with testing dvd's last go around, but download problems really hamstrung me
[23:36] <calc> the secret is download a few days early, then just rsync the minor differences
[23:37] <calc> the bandwidth is much better a few days before the announcements
[23:37] <bryce> mm, didn't know that trick
[23:37] <cjwatson> while this isn't helpful generally, if any Canonical folks want to get a leg-up on big downloads, the Millbank office has excellent bandwidth to the DC
[23:37] <cjwatson> slurp what you can and take it home
[23:37] <slangasek> right, so, alpha-2 - we have some rather infeasibly sized liveCDs right now, on both ubuntu and kubuntu; they're unlikely to get right-sized in time for alpha-2, so we should just expect to do DVD or VM testing for this round
[23:38] <slangasek> so that we start to get some feedback on the software on them, ignoring for the moment that the media is the wrong size
[23:38] <cjwatson> the build I'm doing should fix the fact that they fail to boot
[23:38] <slangasek> also a plus
[23:38] <slangasek> :)
[23:38] <cjwatson> (which was due to an option deep within busybox changing, thereby switching us over to klibc mount, thereby making mount syntax more restrictive, thereby breaking casper)
[23:39] <evand> there was the casper issue, but working around that I was unable to get into GNOME.  cjwatson, is this latter bug what you speak of?
[23:39] <liw> I haven't yet been able to upgrade any of my VMs to intrepid, they fail to boot (crash in initramfs, typically) -- I gather other people are having better luck?
[23:39] <evand> ah, no it wasn't.
[23:39] <cjwatson> evand: it made it through to GNOME without problems for me
[23:39] <bryce> I've been able to upgrade to intrepid
[23:39] <evand> odd.
[23:39]  * evand kicks vmware
[23:39] <cjwatson> liw: I'm sure several people would be happy to help debug crashes in initramfs
[23:39] <bryce> there's an X boot issue I know of where -vesa fails to work (other drivers seem ok)
[23:39] <liw> bryce, real hw or virtual?
[23:39] <cjwatson> myself included
[23:39] <bryce> liw, real
[23:39] <slangasek> liw: alpha-1 boots for me in vmware
[23:40]  * ogra upgraded kernel and initramfs-tools today to test the compcache changes ... apart from usplash being evil and missing firmware all is fine 
[23:40] <liw> cjwatson, sure, I just have't had the energy to start on this yet
[23:40] <slangasek> I think the kvm issue was one soren was working on
[23:40] <TheMuso> I installed alpha 1 on a box, and its up to date as of yesterday and boots fine.
[23:40] <cjwatson> liw: though kvm is known to have trouble booting intrepid guests
[23:40] <bryce> liw: due to X, I pretty much prefer doing all testing on real hardware
[23:40] <TheMuso> bryce: Sam here, but for being able to get sound. I'm pondering getting vmware so I can also have sound from the VM, but kvm is alright for now.
[23:41] <TheMuso> s/sam/same/
[23:41] <liw> ok, I'm using kvm, so that's probably it, then; I'll ask #ubuntu-virt for advice later
[23:42] <TheMuso> Kvm itself can do sound, but libvirt doesn't yet support it.
[23:42] <cjwatson> I have nothing else; any other business?
[23:42] <bryce> btw, for those using kvm, there were some hacks I put into dexconf for Hardy that might not be necessary anymore.  I *think* it may be possible to run X on kvm with no xorg.conf; I'd like to hear feedback one way or the other.
[23:42] <bryce> cjwatson: regarding last weeks action items - the two assigned to me have been done
[23:42] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Whats the story with us looking over the partner archive? We talked about it a few weeks back...
[23:42] <cjwatson> I'm not fussed about an explicit team meeting next week, though if people want one we can
[23:42] <cjwatson> TheMuso: oh yes, sorry, I'll send mail about that - meant to squeeze it in before this meeting
[23:43] <cjwatson> TheMuso: (and for the record it was last week ...)
[23:43] <bryce> cjwatson: I followed up on the libxcb issue, and think there's nothing to be done for now, but once upstream has a new libxcb package, we may want to revisit.
[23:43] <TheMuso> Ah yes it was too.
[23:43] <bryce> cjwatson: I am doubtful the new libxcb is going to be SRU-able, but we can see...
[23:43] <cjwatson> bryce: ok, thank you
[23:43] <bryce> cjwatson: second item - I mentioned this already on the mailing list, but I set up a milestone report
[23:43] <cjwatson> I saw your mail to -devel, thanks
[23:44] <cjwatson> and the milestone report is great, I had a look after seeing your report
[23:44] <cjwatson> how up-to-date is it?
[23:44] <bryce> http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Milestones/milestones_current.html
[23:44] <bryce> I set up a cron to update it every 6 hours
[23:45] <bryce> although I think it may take a day or two to get the cronjob working properly,
[23:45] <cjwatson> I think it will be my sole way to view the milestone list from now on
[23:46] <bryce> cool, let me know if there are improvements that would make it more useful (slangasek - you too)
[23:47] <bryce> when the new Launchpad JSON api's are available, I can probably recode things so it will work faster, and I can make the cron update more frequently
[23:47] <bryce> cjwatson: anyway, nothing else from me
[23:47] <cjwatson> right, I'm happy to call it a day here, then
[23:47] <bryce> thanks
[23:48] <liw> thanks, and good night
[23:48] <asac> thanks all
[23:48] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[23:48] <cjwatson> safe travels, everyone, and see you in London (with the exception of Oliver who'll be sorely missed but we'll see him by videoconference or whatever!)
[23:48] <TheMuso> Thanks, and see you all in London!
[23:48] <evand> thanks
[23:48] <slangasek> thanks, 'night :)
[23:48] <calc> bye
[23:48] <james_w> thanks all