[09:04] <Alibb> @schedule
[13:59] <pitti> hi
[13:59] <Alibb> hi pitti :)
[13:59] <pitti> tedg: good morning
[14:00] <tedg> Morning pitti
[14:00] <tedg> Is today going to be "Ted and the Germans" :)
[14:00] <Alibb> @now
[14:00] <pitti> tedg: s/s$// :)
[14:01] <pitti> tedg: so far it's just the two of us
[14:01] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-07-10
[14:01] <pitti> for the record, the activity reports and the (non)agenda
[14:01] <tedg> Oh, I figured kwwii would make it too.
[14:02] <pitti> I pung him
[14:02] <pitti> nothing from kwwii and mpt
[14:02] <mpt> hi hi
[14:02] <kwwii> hi
[14:02] <pitti> welcome, mpt and kwwii
[14:03] <pitti> no agenda from the activity reports, and nothing particular from me either, with just the four of us
[14:03] <pitti> so, anything you'd like to alk about?
[14:03] <james_w> pitti: I have a small follow up on the users-admin tool if you are interested
[14:03] <pitti> james_w: oh, absolutely!
[14:03] <pitti> james_w: you pointed me towards this new tool which is in planning
[14:03] <pitti> but that didn't look intrepid-able yet?
[14:04] <james_w> I sent a mail to the distros list, and that new tool looks really good
[14:04] <mpt> A new tool in planning?
[14:04] <james_w> I imagine it won't be intrepid, perhaps intrepid+1, I could follow up if you like
[14:04]  * mpt has longed to redesign this
[14:04] <pitti> james_w: hm, I must have missed it
[14:04] <james_w> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-May/msg00006.html
[14:04] <pitti> (the mail, not your IRC ping)
[14:05] <james_w> the only other suggestion was yast
[14:05] <kwwii> I refuse to work on yast again
[14:05] <kwwii> :-)
[14:05] <pitti> well, we want to get rid of super-big tools in favor of a small and sharp one, so yast seems a bit of a step into the wrong direction IMHO
[14:05] <james_w> apparently someone is working on porting it to Debian
[14:06] <pitti> james_w: I think in that case we can survive with users-admin just a little longer
[14:06] <james_w> yeah, the new one seems like it might be a great fit, and presumably will have all the right things like policykit etc.
[14:06] <pitti> in intrepid we're going to drop almost all of the 'permisison' groups, so we can even make users-admin a little more slick
[14:06] <james_w> pitti: yeah, I think seb would like to get rid of it, but there doesn't seem to be anything better at this time
[14:07] <pitti> james_w: at least that settles the question whether or not to put heavy work into s-c-users
[14:07] <pitti> if it's essentially declared dead, there's no point for us to port it to PK
[14:07] <mpt> hmm, some big UI improvements in that new design, but also some awkwardness
[14:07] <pitti> it would probably not be too much work to just use s-c-u with gksu, though
[14:08] <pitti> mpt: it's still in the planning stage, so now would actually be a great time to change the layout
[14:08] <mpt> indeed
[14:08] <pitti> mpt: if you are interested in that, do you feel like following up to that annoucements with your thoughts?
[14:08] <pitti> or are you 100% busy with LP?
[14:09] <mpt> Well I'm not subscribed to fedora-desktop-list, ;-) but I'll certainly e-mail the authors
[14:09] <pitti> right, that's what I meant
[14:10] <pitti> mpt: thanks
[14:13] <pitti> so, unless anyone else has something, I'd just say "see you next week"
[14:13]  * tedg has nothing else to say.
[14:13] <james_w> "see you next week"
[14:14] <pitti> then, thanks to everyone, and safe travels!
[16:01] <persia> OK.  We forgot to reserve the room, but it's now time for the Ubuntu Java team meeting.
[16:01]  * soren runs away
[16:01]  * robilad waves and claims the hour for the #ubuntu-java meeting, along with persia
[16:02] <persia> OK.  The agenda is up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[16:02] <ogra> did we reserve for mobile ?
[16:02] <ogra> next hour ?
[16:02] <persia> ogra: Yes.  See /topic
[16:02] <ogra> perfect ...
[16:03] <ogra> sorry for being blind :)
[16:03] <persia> Last week we talked about some goals for intrepid, and those of us with goals committed to putting them up in the Roadmap.
[16:03] <persia> The results of this are available from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/RoadMap
[16:03] <persia> Err.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadnap
[16:04] <persia> Err.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadmap (I can spell, really!)
[16:04] <persia> Right now, we don't have any assignments, or comments.
[16:04] <persia> First item: " Evaluate difficulties faced when utilizing applications that depend and/or are built on Java."  Who can speak to that?
[16:06] <persia> OK.  Anyone want to keep it on the roadmap?  Are we going to do it?
[16:07] <robilad> it's not quite clear to me what it means in üpractice
[16:07] <robilad> packaging diffculties? developer difficulties? end user difficulties?
[16:07] <persia> Right.  Shall we remove it from the roadmap then?
[16:08] <robilad> sounds fair to me, it can go back once it's more finegrained
[16:08] <persia> Anyone else?
[16:09] <persia> OK.  Dropping that then.
[16:10] <persia> Next item: OpenJDK MIR: who is doing that?
[16:10] <persia> Does it need packaging work first?
[16:10] <dholbach> doko: are you around?
[16:10] <persia> doko: Was that you?
[16:11] <doko> here!
[16:11] <mareks> what is 'MIR'?
[16:12] <dholbach> mareks: Main Inclusion Report
[16:12] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements
[16:12] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionProcess
[16:14] <robilad> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjdk-6/+bug/246349 for the corresponding bug
[16:14] <persia> doko: May I put your name against that item on the roadmap?  Do you need any help with any packaging fixes for that?
[16:15] <doko> persia: no, that's mostly done. if you do have free resources, maybe look at maven2? I'm not sure who wanted to do that
[16:16] <persia> doko: Koon mentioned it for the last meeting, but didn't add it to the roadmap.
[16:16] <robilad> not here today, afaict
[16:16] <dholbach> Koon said he couldn't make it today, but was interested what would get decided about it
[16:16] <robilad> did he find time to check out the fedora patchset?
[16:17] <persia> Let's skip maven for this week: if someone starts work on it, we can add it to the roadmap next week.
[16:17] <dholbach> robilad: no, I don't think he did
[16:17] <robilad> ok, thanks, then I agree with moving on, and putting it on the agenda for next week
[16:18] <persia> Next item is "Integration of Java into server stack".  Who is the driver for this?
[16:19] <persia> OK.  Anyone want to be the driver for it?
[16:19] <robilad> i'd be happy to, but it may require some maven support if we want to build geronimo/glassfish from source
[16:21] <persia> Great.  Do you want to talk about it a bit, or work on breaking it down into chunks over the next week, and maybe describe some smaller targets for people to help with next week?
[16:21] <dholbach> seems like we need a maven workforce :))
[16:22] <robilad> i'd be happy to talk about the GF side of things next week
[16:22] <persia> OK.  I'll put your name on it for now, and encourage you to break it down a bit in the roadmap.
[16:22] <robilad> thanks
[16:22] <persia> Next item: "Identify possible opportunities to optimise the Java stack".  Who wants this one?
[16:23] <dholbach> I think cody-somerville added it
[16:23] <dholbach> it wasn't really discussed in the last meeting
[16:23] <persia> Hmm.  Not here this week.  Anyone else want it?
[16:24] <persia> Opinions on dropping it vs. deferring to next week?
[16:25] <persia> Right.  Let's leave it there, as it's at least well described, and see if Cody comes back next week.
[16:26] <persia> Next item: "Transition Java packages from multiverse to universe where possible".
[16:26] <persia> I raised this, but won't likely do a very good job of getting it done for intrepid.  Anyone willing to take over tracking it?
[16:26] <robilad> i think that's an item that would profit from close collaboration with debian
[16:27] <persia> Very much so: http://wiki.debian.org/Java/MoveToMain tracks the Debian progress.
[16:27] <robilad> so I'd like to discuss it with man-di when he has time to join us
[16:27] <persia> When things move to Main in Debian, someone needs to file a bug in Ubuntu to ask the archive-admins to promote the package to universe.
[16:28] <persia> robilad: While I'm certain man-di could do it, I'd think this sort of tracking Debian might be an easy way for someone new to get involved.
[16:28] <robilad> that's a very good point
[16:29] <persia> Anyone interested?  If not, I'll take it, but would be happy to hand it to anyone who wants to take over.
[16:30] <persia> Next item: "Improved Java environment on PowerPC": who has a power PC and wants to coordinate the porting efforts?  I think there were a couple people interested last week.
[16:32] <persia> OK.  Opinions on keeping it on the roadmap or dropping it?
[16:32] <robilad> is it a release arch for interpid?
[16:32] <doko> no
[16:32] <persia> Well, it's in ports.
[16:33] <doko> so it's not a release arch
[16:33]  * persia grumbles about definition of terms, and quibbles a bit before subsiding
[16:33] <robilad> it seems that it would take a volunteer from the ubuntu powerpc community to keep it on map
[16:34] <persia> Right, and we don't have one this week.  If someone objects to removing it in the minutes, they can take charge of it.
[16:34] <persia> OK.  That was the Roadmap review: we'll do it again next week.
[16:34] <persia> Back to the new items on the agenda:
[16:34] <persia> "Eclipse"
[16:35] <persia> xhaker seems to be absent, so we'll defer this again.
[16:35] <persia> Next item: "Moving meetings to 14h".  robilad: all yours.
[16:36] <robilad> ok, i spoke with man-di what time would work for him
[16:36] <robilad> and he suggested starting one or preferrably two hours earlier,
[16:36] <robilad> i.e. 13 or 14h UTC.
[16:36] <robilad> would that still work for everyone interested?
[16:37] <persia> I'm good for either of those times.
[16:37]  * robilad pokes persia, doko, dholbach, mareks
[16:37] <robilad> thanks, persia
[16:38] <robilad> others?
[16:38]  * persia notes that others not just poked who would find those times inconvenient ought speak up quick.
[16:38] <robilad> ah, the advantages of not announcing a meeting on fridge ... ;)
[16:38] <dholbach> yeah, I'm good too
[16:39] <robilad> no volunteers, but also no trouble rescheduling ;)
[16:39] <robilad> thanks, dholbach
[16:39] <persia> OK.  From now, we'll take meetings at 14h.
[16:40] <persia> That completes our agenda.  Any volunteers to write up the minutes?
[16:41]  * robilad would be happy to, where should the write up go to?
[16:41]  * doko is leaving, back late in the evening
[16:41] <persia> robilad: I'd think we probably want to put it on the wiki, and maybe send an email.
[16:42] <persia> I'd be happy to discuss particulars with you in #ubuntu-java after the meeting.  Thanks for volunteering.
[16:42] <robilad> ok. next meeting - thu 17th, 14h UTC.
[16:42] <persia> Thanks everyone.  See you next week!
[16:42] <dholbach> thanks guys
[16:42] <robilad> thanks all, and bye
[16:45] <doko> ohh, I won't make it next week for the meeting
[16:46] <persia> doko: OK.  If there's a change in status on OpenJDK can you let us know in #ubuntu-java, and someone else can bring it to the meeting?
[17:02]  * ogra waves
[17:02] <davidm> #startmeeting
[17:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is davidm.
[17:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:02] <davidm> OK silly of me
[17:02] <ogra> old habits die hard :)
[17:03] <davidm> Good morning everyone.
[17:03] <davidm> We have no prior business from last week.
[17:03] <davidm>  I do have a bit of news, I have located the mootbot meeting logs for the last two weeks so I'll post them today.
[17:03] <davidm> OK that is better.
[17:03] <davidm> Someone please keep an eye on #ubuntu-mobile so that anyone confused (like I was ) gets directed here, thanks.
[17:03] <GrueMaster> do you need to restart mootbot?
[17:04] <lool> So I guess we can move to this week's items?
[17:04] <lool> GrueMaster: he did
[17:04] <davidm> Already did
[17:04] <davidm> INdeed
[17:04] <lool> And additionally this chan is logged 100% of the time I think
[17:04] <persia> It is.  irclogs.ubuntu.com
[17:04] <GrueMaster> just checking.
[17:04] <davidm> [topic] Wiki cleanup: feedback and ideas (EmmetHikory)
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki cleanup: feedback and ideas (EmmetHikory)
[17:04] <lool> persia: Thanks for a lot for picking up this task!
[17:04] <persia> OK.  Last week, I send out https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2008-July/001935.html
[17:04] <lool> persia: Did you check whether dholbach had any useful bits on this task?
[17:05] <persia> Everyone who replied to the mail was in agreement.  Anyone else have suggestions?
[17:05] <lool> I think he cleaned up the dev pages of the Ubuntu wiki some months ago
[17:05] <davidm> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2008-July/001935.html
[17:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2008-July/001935.html
[17:05] <persia> lool: Yes.  I've gotten a lot of input from him on standard team structures, etc.
[17:05] <lool> Great
[17:05] <persia> That was part of why I suggested separating the team from the flavour on the wiki.
[17:06] <lool> I fully agree
[17:06] <lool> And I would add that any additional orthogonals splits that you can come up with will probably help reuse information
[17:07] <persia> OK.  In the absence of either objections or other ideas, I'll start implementing the changes I described next week.  Anyone who wants to get a head start is welcome to dive in.
[17:07] <davidm> persia, sounds good to me :-)
[17:08] <davidm> OK if there is no more on this topic?
[17:08] <davidm> There are no additional items on the agenda.
[17:09] <davidm> [topic] Agenda empty!!!
[17:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda empty!!!
[17:09] <ogra> :)
[17:09] <cgregan> davidm: devices?
[17:09] <davidm> cgregan, ??
[17:09] <cgregan> I talked to pat
[17:09] <davidm> Ah,
[17:10] <cgregan> Intel will need to provide
[17:10]  * lool wonders whether we have not much to discuss on these IRC meetings because we have a call some hours before the meeting
[17:10] <davidm> Good enough, thanks, I'll get back to them.
[17:10] <davidm> lool, from the mobile team, perhaps but we might have topics from the community?
[17:11] <lool> davidm: But if we don't discuss all our topics in the public, we wont get much community love
[17:11] <ogra> yeah
[17:11] <lool> It's not that we're hiding them, but because we cover them privately already...
[17:11] <lool> I had a similar problem with the one to ones
[17:11] <cgregan> should we move call to Friday morning?
[17:11] <ogra> we should probably switch order ... but that might get tricky if this meeting here is immovable
[17:11] <davidm> We can discuss here if you like, then the team meeting can become short again which I like :-)
[17:12] <lool> I had nothing to discuss with people because it was too close ot the weekly phone call
[17:12] <lool> davidm: hehe
[17:12] <lool> I think either flipping order of phone call and irc meeting or moving them further apart in the week could help
[17:12] <lool> At least it helped me have more interesting phone calls with people
[17:13] <davidm> I like the phone call because it gives me a few minutes to "hear" everyone and I get a clew if someone is unhappy or stressed that I can't get here.  I'm quite happy to have meeting here.
[17:13] <lool> cgregan: I think moving call Friday morning would work; it's Friday evening for StevenK though
[17:13] <cgregan> make it a weekly recap to discuss what comes up from community here, and status of our work for the week
[17:13] <davidm> If StevenK and persia don't mind I don't
[17:13] <lool> davidm: I think having a phone call is fine, it's very effective, but it deprives this IRC meeting from a lot of content
[17:13] <cgregan> Same for persia
[17:14] <lool> cgregan: Indeed
[17:14] <lool> persia: Sorry :)
[17:14]  * persia has a regular meeting every sixth week at 12:00 UTC on Fridays.
[17:14] <davidm> [topic] telephone meeting and it's impact on IRC public meeting
[17:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  telephone meeting and it's impact on IRC public meeting
[17:14] <lool> davidm: Do you have any requirement on the contents of your reports?
[17:14] <lool> davidm: I mean the weekly reports you'll be aggregating frmo our ARs?
[17:14] <cgregan> The only other option is to move it to their morning.....but that makes it very late for you. Although in a few weeks you will be up changing diapers anyway! :-)
[17:15] <davidm> lool, Nope
[17:15] <lool> cgregan: haha
[17:15] <lool> I'm fine moving to any other day
[17:15] <davidm> I do need the activity reports (that I still don't have) hint hint.....
[17:16] <lool> I think we should report progress in the IRC meetings and discuss things here like we did on the phone today
[17:17] <davidm> OK, that can work.
[17:17] <lool> Cool
[17:18] <lool> persia: every sixth week doesn't sound too grave
[17:18] <lool> davidm: Shall we try this new meeting time where we might miss persia once every 6 weeks?
[17:18] <lool> davidm: Perhaps check with StevenK?
[17:18] <persia> lool: Nope, but it's MOTU Meeting, which I'm loathe to miss (and you ought be attending :p )
[17:18] <lool> Anyway, you people know my computer-times; I'm happy with anything which happens after this IRC meeting in the week or any other day
[17:18] <lool> Just not some hours before the IRC meeting ;)
[17:19] <davidm> Yes, lets talk about it next week in Lexington
[17:19] <ogra> ++
[17:19] <lool> Cool
[17:19] <davidm> OK
[17:19] <davidm> Anything else?
[17:19] <lool> Apart of that I wanted to propose that we announce presence at upcoming events
[17:20] <lool> ogra and myself will try to attend the Debian Extremadura week on Emdebian
[17:20] <lool> And I'll try to go to the maemo Summit in Berlin
[17:20] <lool> Should I announce presence on our mailing-list?
[17:20] <davidm> I'll be at OLS week after next in Ottawa Canada
[17:20] <davidm> Sure, why not?
[17:20] <lool> Great
[17:20] <ogra> fine with me
[17:20] <lool> Will do
[17:21] <lool> Do we have a wiki page with slides of previous presentations?
[17:21] <davidm> persia, thoughts?
[17:21] <persia> I'm all in favour of announcing presence on mailing lists :)
[17:21] <lool> I'd love to reuse some material if I have to present UM&E
[17:21] <davidm> I am not aware of any.  Good idea however
[17:21] <davidm> There are some internal but out of date.
[17:22] <lool> Ok; then I think I'll try to collect some in a wiki page
[17:22] <davidm> I can post mine.
[17:22] <lool> I'll need to consult with persia on appropriate location of these  :-P
[17:22] <persia> lool: w.u.c/UbuntuMobile/Presentations/$(NAME)
[17:23] <lool> persia: Name of the event I guess?
[17:23] <davidm> Do we just want w.u.c/UbuntuMobile/Presentations and have attachments there?
[17:23] <lool> persia: Why UbuntuMobile and not just Mobile BTW?
[17:23] <persia> Or name of the presentation if you're building a static presentation for multiple fora
[17:24] <davidm> Seems perhaps (to me) silly to have a page for an event that has a single attachment?
[17:24] <lool> I was thinking we would collect a list of oo presentations or pdfs or whatever and list at which events these were presented by whom at which date
[17:24] <persia> Mostly because the name is most similar to UbuntuStudio from the other flavours, and that is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
[17:24] <lool> davidm: I find this a bit heavy too
[17:25] <lool> persia: But then everything on wuc is Ubuntu; sounds weird to repeat that part? :)
[17:25] <lool> DRY
[17:25] <persia> davidm: If we're doing attachments, that makes more sense.
[17:25] <persia> lool: I'm just trying to follow the prevailing conventions.
[17:25] <lool> persia: Desktop is using /DesktopTeam
[17:25] <davidm> persia,  I think mostly that is what we are likely to have.
[17:26] <lool> There's also /PlatformTeam
[17:26] <persia> I'm happy with /MobileTeam, but think that's a different namespace than /UbuntuMobile/
[17:26] <persia> davidm: You've convinced me.
[17:27] <lool> persia: Hmm let's do some research on existing conventions after the meeting then
[17:27] <davidm> Would it make sense to have a ???Mobile???/Presentations page and if there is more then just attachments put a page under it, if not just add attachment?
[17:27] <persia> That works even better: best of both models.
[17:27] <ogra> yeah
[17:28] <lool> Excellent
[17:28] <davidm> :-P I guess a pointed headed boss can do something correct once in a while ;-P
[17:28] <ian_brasil> there is also this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UMEGuide/PresentationArea
[17:28] <ogra> i think for massive attachment handling we should take a look at the artwork team pages probably
[17:28] <ogra> they collect theme work there
[17:29] <lool> ian_brasil: What's the criteria used to group these presentations there?
[17:29] <ogra> if we even get that many presentations together to acually worry :)
[17:30] <ian_brasil> presentations about ubuntu mobile and upstream
[17:30] <davidm> True, it's not like we are going to be on the road full time doing presentations, but we will do some.
[17:30] <ian_brasil> i.e. a catch all
[17:30] <lool> ian_brasil: I would think we need to focus on UM&E presentations; probably as done by people working on UM&E and presenting the goals and their work
[17:30] <lool> ian_brasil: it looks like you have some hildon presentations in there
[17:30] <ian_brasil> right
[17:30] <lool> I think these are helpful to developers, or can be linked to from documentation, but do they really document UM&E or help reusing material for a new presentation?  Perhaps less so
[17:31] <lool> ian_brasil: But thanks, definitely an useful collection to point technical people at
[17:31] <lool> Well all of this is technical anyway :)
[17:32] <lool> Ok; thanks everybody for discussing presentation materials
[17:33] <lool> I don't have anything more on the topic
[17:33] <davidm> OK, good enough,
[17:33] <lool> (Anyone has additional topics?)
[17:33]  * ogra not atm
[17:33] <davidm> otherwise meeting close going once.......................................................................................................................
[17:34]  * GrueMaster remains silent.  :-X
[17:34] <davidm> meeting close going twice ................................................
[17:35] <davidm> #endmeeting
[17:35] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:36.
[17:35]  * lool thanks davidm for taking care of the meeting and the related mootbot/wiki administrativa!
[17:35] <davidm> Thanks everyone.
[17:35] <ogra> thanks
[17:35] <davidm> Now finding mootbot logs will be harder!!!!
[17:36] <davidm> There are a lot of meetings in this room.....
[17:41] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/
[17:41] <ogra> the ScribesTeam might be of help
[17:42] <ogra> davidm, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/SubmitMeeting sepcifically
[17:42] <ogra> *specifically even
[17:44] <persia> Oooh!  That's a nifty link.  On the other hand, I'm not sure most of my meetings are that disciplined...
[17:44] <ogra> well, we have the agenda page at least
[17:44] <ogra> The summary and log will be placed on the agenda you gave a link for. An email will be sent when log and summary have been posted to the page.
[17:44] <ogra> is what the page says
[17:46] <ogra> so if you just include the scribes team in the weekly mail announce CC list that should work i guess
[17:46] <ogra> (after asking them indeed)
[17:46] <persia> Probably, although it also requires mootbot wrangling and people staying on-topic.
[17:48] <ogra> which we have anyway in this meeting
[17:55] <davidm> the scribes have had fun with mootbot hosting so I've been pulling the logs when they show up and hosting them on my people.c.c page