newz2000we have an official log bot now14:42
mase_laphey newz2000, my name is Andrew Mason. I was talking to you on the mailing list Re the navigation changes. I know that nothing is going to happen for this release , but i was wondering if there was a way that I could get notified when you have the content side of things sorted internally. I am keen to stay involved but it seems the majority of tasks, at least for now, are more artistically based which isn't really my forte`15:16
newz2000mase_lap: hi, welcome to the list15:16
newz2000your conversation has helped make me bold so I will be proposing some of the changes discussed on the list15:17
newz2000I was just talking to boredandblogging about this last night actually15:18
newz2000give me just a min to finish up with someone, brb15:18
mase_lapyeh no worries. i'm not in a rush. I was just on freenode and thought i'd stop in but I can just email the list.15:23
mase_lapmight have to go myself shortly now that i think about it.15:24
newz2000I'm back, if you have to leave, that's fine15:25
newz2000mase_lap: here's what I'm thinking I'll do15:25
newz2000First I have to get my boss to allocate some of his time to this, because there's too many people involved for me to do it alone. Plus he's in the same office as most of them.15:25
newz2000I'm working on a wireframe of the homepage to get conversation started15:26
newz2000What I'm thinking about navigation is this:15:26
newz2000there are three kinds that are shown to work very well consistently:15:26
newz2000a logo in the top left that takes you to the homepage, breadcrumb navigation and contextual navigation.15:26
newz2000Other types of navigation (global navigation, drop downs, etc) may work or may not work, depending on the site.15:27
newz2000So I'm going to suggest making the navigation as simple as possible and use more contextual navigation15:27
newz2000for example, on this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition15:28
newz2000there is contextual navigation (though probably too low on the page)15:28
newz2000If someone is on the server page there's a good chance they want to know more about server15:29
newz2000(go figure!)15:29
newz2000so contextual links saying, "how can Ubuntu server help you build a powerful web presence" may be helpful15:29
newz2000or "download Ubuntu server edition"15:30
newz2000mase_lap: what do you think?15:30
mase_lapit's a bit hard b/c i don't know how you get presented with data internally ,but you kind of need a map of all of the sites15:31
mase_lapfrom which to choose your navigation15:31
mase_lapb/c what you are saying is correct15:31
mase_lapits pretty contextual15:31
mase_lapand that is a more intuitive way to present the navigational options15:31
mase_lapbut to do that, you need to have a global view of what navigational options are available15:32
newz2000ah, good point15:32
mase_lapi.e what resources / urls are available and what data they present15:32
mase_lapwhich goes back to your whole CMS issue15:32
mase_lapbecause if you don't have the whole picture, your going to be playing catchup when resources get added / removed15:32
mase_lapor worse, if your CMS really isn't clever it will let the content change without the URI changine15:33
mase_lapso i think your fighting an uphill battle if you don't have the resources available for all the sites15:34
newz2000very good point15:34
mase_lapof course, that might be your only option with the security policies you mentioned :)15:34
newz2000you know, it's been a while since I've created a comprehensive site map15:34
mase_lapwell i guess ideally, each of the content management systems should feed into something which can generate this automagically15:35
newz2000well, we have this problem of having a lot of content that is old and crusty15:36
newz2000so it may be time to start anew15:36
mase_lapi think from a maintainability POV, being able to identify some content, in your CMS or what ever data source you are using, and saying "i want to create a link to this", and the system being able to generate that for you is something to aim for15:38
newz2000ah, that would be handy15:38
mase_lapthat way, when content changes, you can  be automagically notified, or at least the person doing the changing15:38
mase_lapcan see that it will effect other parts of the site15:38
newz2000mase_lap: have you ever seen such a thing?15:38
mase_lapkind of15:39
mase_lapi mean yes, but i don't know if it would be applicable in this situation. But i was assuming there would be other CMS's that do this.15:40
mase_lapi am pretty sure apache lenya does it15:40
mase_lapnow that i think of it15:40
mase_lapis what canonical use something developed in house ?15:41
newz2000it's drupal, a php cms15:41
mase_lapah ok. yeh  i know of drupal, haven't used it personally though15:41
mase_lapis that what the website is generated from, or is it actually what is storing the content ?15:42
newz2000both, it serves the content dynamically and there's proxy servers that cache and serve it statically15:42
newz2000I'm liking the idea of the site map, I think I will make this part of my wireframe15:44
mase_lapok. so out of curiosity how do you find it ?15:44
newz2000mase_lap: find what?15:44
mase_lapdrupal as a CMS. does it largely do what you require of it?15:44
mase_lapfor Ubuntu.com et al15:44
newz2000yeah, its very flexible15:45
newz2000I personally think calling it a cms is a misnomer15:45
newz2000because it's a poor cms (as cms's go)15:45
newz2000it's more of a framework15:45
mase_lapah k.15:46
newz2000mase_lap: you've definitely inspired me15:48
newz2000twice now!15:48
mase_lapwhat are your thoughts on XSLT ? not clientside but server side. This is a leading question btw :)15:48
newz2000As a language I hate xslt, Its one of the few technologies that makes me want to swear.15:48
newz2000but it does what it's supposed to do quite well15:49
mase_laphaha. ok then.15:49
newz2000but why do you ask?15:49
mase_lapwell i was just thinking that having more structured data / cms might help internally. That way you can set up triggers etc.. internally to make sure that the data necessary to present the information on the web page15:51
mase_lapbut that may not necessarily be the best tool for creating the website it's self15:52
mase_lapand your security policies are quite strict15:52
newz2000yeah, I think we've grown pretty comfortable with drupal. I'm not foreseeing too much change to the infrastructure in the near future15:52
mase_lapso if you could get cryptographically signed xml out of the cms15:52
newz2000 !!15:53
mase_lapso the content goes straight into drupal ?15:54
newz2000yes, often via a wiki or odt document first15:54
mase_lapand they are adding this content to a specific site ?15:54
mase_lapand the sites can't see each other for all intensive purposes15:55
newz2000yes, but most content is on one site15:55
mase_laphmm your still pretty wedged between a rock and a hard place15:55
newz2000my thinking is to migrate to more contextual navigation and have a global navigation be less comprehensive15:56
newz2000I think this would help users by limiting the number of decissions they need to make, and helping to steer them in the right direction.15:56
mase_lapyeh thats some good thinking15:56
newz2000it would help us by not needing to worry about keeping separate navigations up to date15:56
mase_lapi have a much better idea now of what your were talking about before15:57
mase_lapyou can't really do a whole heap if you don't have the data15:57
newz2000what you're saying is good. Even with my navigation ideas there will be a problem15:58
newz2000because if you change a page you'll want to know what links to that page and might need changed15:58
mase_lapbut thats going to be hard if its not done in a single source environment15:59
mase_lapand you can't share data15:59
newz2000I'm working this through in my mind...15:59
newz2000the tool I have is a wiki15:59
newz2000and if the sitemap is the wiki it could work15:59
newz2000but it's a bit of a manual process15:59
newz2000I wonder what tools are available to help with this15:59
mase_lapwell how "correct" are your links ? from a tim berners lee perspective of the web16:00
newz2000what do you mean by correctness?16:00
mase_laplike is each URI an actual resource, no GET's which actually change content ?16:00
mase_lapcool, then you can spider the site16:00
mase_lapsite(s) even16:00
mase_lapcreate a tree seperate to the cms16:00
newz2000ah, I see what you're saying16:01
mase_lapwhich can be looked up, regenerated16:01
newz2000have it update periodically16:01
mase_lapyeh, or in drupal16:01
mase_lapfor each site16:01
mase_laphave it just post to something16:01
mase_lapwhich you can get to16:01
mase_lapor find someway of exporting that data16:01
mase_lapsmtp :)16:01
mase_lapa simple xml representation of the tree would work16:02
newz2000my gears are turning16:02
newz2000there is a plugin for drupal that creates a google sitemap, which I believe is an xml representation16:02
mase_lapor just a serialised array16:02
mase_lapoh yeh16:02
mase_lapthat would work nicely16:02
mase_lapthat way, to validate links, you document() in all the xml files16:03
mase_lapand run xpath xpressions on all the links you have to the URI they link to, in most cases the xpath xpression will actually be pretty close to the href that you would see in the page16:04
mase_lapthe only difference is that / for a site, would be the first child of the document16:04
mase_lapat least in my mind that works =)16:05
newz2000well, before much of that can be done some other tasks must come first16:05
newz2000social, not technical unfortunately16:05
mase_lapheh they are always the hardest16:05
mase_lapi gotta say i really admire your ability to shepherd the ubuntu-website group16:06
mase_lapi think it's amazing you have the headspace for all those conversations16:06
newz2000thanks for the compliment, I hope that we'll become a successful team and accomplish some great stuff16:06
mase_lappeople do seem very keen.16:08
newz2000so after I start discussions about necessary changes to the website with internal people I'll try as much as possible to pull the discussion back to the group16:08
newz2000there's too much talent and expertise and creativity not to try and benfit from it16:08
VolansHi all :)16:09
newz2000and I know what you mean about wanting to contribute but not being graphically inclined. I do want to provide everyone an opportunity to help if they want to.16:09
newz2000hey Volans16:09
newz2000I have 17 emails in my "bugs" folder. :-)16:09
newz2000I can't wait to see all that you've done in there16:09
VolansI think my "fault"... ;)16:10
mase_lapcool. that would be really good. LIke i said before, i'm not really artistic so this is one of the few areas i feel i can contribute so that would be nice if you could notify the group16:10
mase_laphey Volans16:10
VolansHi mase_lap16:10
newz2000Volans: was that you that was working on the spreadsheet of tiemzones?16:10
mase_lapnewz2000: sorry to bug you again, i am just curious, how do you handle translations?16:11
mase_lapwithin ubuntu.com16:11
Volansyes newz2000, I have worked on that16:11
newz2000mase_lap: right now we do no translations for the website16:11
newz2000I'm not sure how we're going to do it either16:11
newz2000Volans: we have an official log bot now, so I think we can start to plan our meeting16:11
mase_lapah ok.  thats what i'm currently working on atm in another project, i'll let you know if we find a good way.16:12
newz2000mase_lap: is it for web content?16:12
Volansok, I will do some work to make the spreadsheet clear for all16:12
newz2000mase_lap: have you tried launchpad?16:12
newz2000Volans: do you have google docs and spreadsheets?16:13
mase_lapnewz2000: yeh, my only gripe with launchpad is that i seem to need to use bzr. which is a really good system, but php and python don't play as well as PHP and C16:13
VolansI can, I have many google account, I can put it there or make it directly in the google spreadsheets app16:13
newz2000mase_lap: bzr is giving you a problem with your source code?16:14
mase_lapand although I also like python, it doesn't have the share nothing architecture that I like about PHP16:14
mase_lapnewz2000: it's probably a bit indepth and out of scope for this channel and this time of night. :)16:15
mase_lapbut yeh i like launchpad and bzr. Just would like the ability to use launchpad with say Git or SVN16:16
newz2000I've heard it didn't work well for long strings like pages and paragraphs, was wondering if you had found this to be true16:16
mase_lapi haven't done enough with it to know sorry.16:16
newz2000no prob16:16
newz2000translation is down the road for us16:17
newz2000Volans: what I was thinking was adding the spreadsheet to google docs for a bit and sharing it with the world so that the team members can add themselves and timezones16:17
boredandbloggingwouldn't it better to do on the wiki?16:17
Volansnewz2000: I was thinking that timezones are not the correct measure unit16:17
newz2000maybe, but does the wiki deal well with tabular data?16:17
newz2000Volans: better to let them choose time frames relative to UTC?16:18
boredandbloggingnewz2000: think it does ok: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList16:18
Volansbecause I can live in GMT timezone but will be available for meeting only from 9 to 10 in the morning for example16:18
newz2000yeah, but it can be a chore to manage, especially if you want to copy from a spreadsheet to the wiki16:19
newz2000there's a wysiwyg editor in 1.6, I wonder when we upgrade16:19
newz2000Volans: so here's another issue we have to think about...16:19
newz2000and its hard to say it, but here it is16:19
newz2000there are some people that *need* to be at the meeting for it to be successful16:19
newz2000so we'll have to work around their schedule, even if it means excluding some others16:20
Volanssure, is normal16:20
newz2000for example, I need someone from the doc team, preferably mdke, for the start page16:20
Volanswe can't make a meeting without you and gerry I think16:20
newz2000gerry doesn't care I suspect16:20
newz2000unless it prevents me from doing something he wants me to do16:20
Volansnewz2000: is very difficult to have Matt at a meeting... ;)16:20
newz2000see, ever since he got married last year...16:21
newz2000nick, don't you go and start making major life changes now, hear me?16:22
newz2000let me see if mdke is available and when, then I'll send an announcement to the list16:23
boredandbloggingi'm already married, so no worries there :-P16:23
boredandbloggingand ubuntu is my mistress16:24
newz2000who needs second life?16:24
Volansnewz2000: I think we have too many variables (date, time, 80 people subscribed to the list)16:29
newz2000yeah, that number is over 90 now I think16:29
newz2000but I agree16:29
Volansperhaps locking the date...16:29
newz2000sending an email to mdke now16:29
Volansor having 2-3 possible dates16:29
Volansask to him 2/3 date with 2 possible time in the day or something like so16:30
Volansnewz2000: the meeting will be held here or on ubuntu-meeting?16:48
newz2000I think here since we have a log bot16:49
newz2000I want people to feel welcome to come in and having a meeting here will help facilitate that16:50
Volansnewz2000: I took the liberty of made this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Meetings16:59
Volansplease check the inglish and feel free to change and adpat it to the team needs16:59
Volansooops... s/inglish/english/17:00
newz2000Volans: what's your native language?17:06
Volansitalian, I live in Italy notwithstanding my usual online time17:07
Volansnewz2000: now I have to go, hoping the wiki page can be useful for the meeting survey... :)18:16
newz2000thanks, I think it will. you did good work.18:17
Volanstoday no bug work... I leave you some time to do the queued ones ;)18:19
Volansbye bye18:20
pips1newz2000: hi23:14
newz2000hey pips1!23:14
pips1how is it going23:14
newz2000good here, we've had a pretty exciting start to the web presence team23:14
* pips1 looks left and right23:15
pips1quite a bunch in here! .-)23:15
newz2000you should see the mailing list... about 90 people there atm23:15
newz2000what's happening on your end?23:16
pips1I was just about to appy the drupal security update... but someone beat me to it!23:16
newz2000no, probably the sysadmins23:16
newz2000they're on the ball23:16
pips1good one23:16
newz2000they IM'd me this morning saying it was done23:16
pips1ah, ok23:16
newz2000pips1: so did you see the new kubuntu website>23:17
newz2000they moved to drupal as well23:17
newz2000and we did something interesting for their download page23:17
pips1that didn't work23:17
newz2000try http://kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download23:17
newz2000maybe it would benefit you guys too...23:18
pips1erm... I'm getting Access Denied.23:18
newz2000oh really?23:18
newz2000maybe it won't benefit you then. :-)23:18
newz2000ryanakca: know of any problems with kubuntu?23:19
newz2000kubuntu.org I mean23:19
newz2000it works for me...23:19
newz2000pips1: so you'll have to use your imagination then23:19
newz2000we made their download page an iframe that is served from the ubuntu23:19
newz2000that way the mirror list gets updated automatically when ubuntu's does.23:20
newz2000and gives a nice simple interface23:20
newz2000similar to ubuntu's but with diff colors23:20
* pips1 wishes he could see the real thing23:20
newz2000I wonder why I can't and you can...23:20
pips1bizarre, indeed23:21
pips1The requested URL could not be retrieved23:21
pips1Generated Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:19:38 GMT by jujube.canonical.com (squid/2.6.STABLE18)23:21
newz2000Ng: are you around?23:21
newz2000Ng: unping, trying in #is instead23:22
newz2000one of the front end caches must be having a problem, which is why it works for me23:23
newz2000pips1: several people on the team have asked me for non-graphic design projects to do. I don't know if you're looking for help on the edubuntu website and if you are looking if you have any tasks you'd be willing to farm out.23:27
newz2000but if you do, maybe you'd like to propose them23:27
pips1oh, nice. sure, we can use help!23:28
newz2000why don't you send me an email and I'll add them to the task lists (we have two, current tasks and future tasks).23:29
newz2000you don't have to give a ton of details but ideally the tasks would be very specific23:29
pips1I want to touch base with the edubuntu folks... i've been out of touch since uds..!23:30
pips1ok, i understand, there smaller and concrete the task, the more likely someone snaps it up... makes sense23:31
* pips1 browses throught the ubuntu-website ML archive23:31
newz2000pips1: I can't remember, do you have a co-webmaster for your site?23:32
newz2000ah, right23:32
newz2000well, if you're not yet subscribed, you should consider yourself invited to participate in the web presence team list23:33
pips1I'm doing that now23:33
newz2000I will retire for a while, have a nice evening or whatever it is where you are. ;-)23:41
pips1ok, cu!23:42
pips1I'm going to bed soon23:42
* Volans back23:53

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