[14:42] <newz2000> we have an official log bot now
[15:16] <mase_lap> hey newz2000, my name is Andrew Mason. I was talking to you on the mailing list Re the navigation changes. I know that nothing is going to happen for this release , but i was wondering if there was a way that I could get notified when you have the content side of things sorted internally. I am keen to stay involved but it seems the majority of tasks, at least for now, are more artistically based which isn't really my forte`
[15:16] <newz2000> mase_lap: hi, welcome to the list
[15:17] <newz2000> your conversation has helped make me bold so I will be proposing some of the changes discussed on the list
[15:18] <newz2000> I was just talking to boredandblogging about this last night actually
[15:18] <newz2000> give me just a min to finish up with someone, brb
[15:23] <mase_lap> yeh no worries. i'm not in a rush. I was just on freenode and thought i'd stop in but I can just email the list.
[15:24] <mase_lap> might have to go myself shortly now that i think about it.
[15:25] <newz2000> I'm back, if you have to leave, that's fine
[15:25] <newz2000> mase_lap: here's what I'm thinking I'll do
[15:25] <newz2000> First I have to get my boss to allocate some of his time to this, because there's too many people involved for me to do it alone. Plus he's in the same office as most of them.
[15:26] <newz2000> I'm working on a wireframe of the homepage to get conversation started
[15:26] <newz2000> What I'm thinking about navigation is this:
[15:26] <newz2000> there are three kinds that are shown to work very well consistently:
[15:26] <newz2000> a logo in the top left that takes you to the homepage, breadcrumb navigation and contextual navigation.
[15:27] <newz2000> Other types of navigation (global navigation, drop downs, etc) may work or may not work, depending on the site.
[15:27] <newz2000> So I'm going to suggest making the navigation as simple as possible and use more contextual navigation
[15:28] <newz2000> for example, on this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition
[15:28] <newz2000> there is contextual navigation (though probably too low on the page)
[15:29] <newz2000> If someone is on the server page there's a good chance they want to know more about server
[15:29] <newz2000> (go figure!)
[15:29] <mase_lap> heh
[15:29] <newz2000> so contextual links saying, "how can Ubuntu server help you build a powerful web presence" may be helpful
[15:30] <newz2000> or "download Ubuntu server edition"
[15:30] <newz2000> mase_lap: what do you think?
[15:31] <mase_lap> it's a bit hard b/c i don't know how you get presented with data internally ,but you kind of need a map of all of the sites
[15:31] <mase_lap> from which to choose your navigation
[15:31] <mase_lap> b/c what you are saying is correct
[15:31] <mase_lap> its pretty contextual
[15:31] <mase_lap> and that is a more intuitive way to present the navigational options
[15:32] <mase_lap> but to do that, you need to have a global view of what navigational options are available
[15:32] <newz2000> ah, good point
[15:32] <mase_lap> i.e what resources / urls are available and what data they present
[15:32] <mase_lap> which goes back to your whole CMS issue
[15:32] <mase_lap> because if you don't have the whole picture, your going to be playing catchup when resources get added / removed
[15:33] <mase_lap> or worse, if your CMS really isn't clever it will let the content change without the URI changine
[15:33] <mase_lap> changing*
[15:34] <mase_lap> so i think your fighting an uphill battle if you don't have the resources available for all the sites
[15:34] <newz2000> very good point
[15:34] <mase_lap> of course, that might be your only option with the security policies you mentioned :)
[15:34] <newz2000> you know, it's been a while since I've created a comprehensive site map
[15:35] <mase_lap> well i guess ideally, each of the content management systems should feed into something which can generate this automagically
[15:36] <newz2000> well, we have this problem of having a lot of content that is old and crusty
[15:36] <newz2000> so it may be time to start anew
[15:38] <mase_lap> i think from a maintainability POV, being able to identify some content, in your CMS or what ever data source you are using, and saying "i want to create a link to this", and the system being able to generate that for you is something to aim for
[15:38] <newz2000> ah, that would be handy
[15:38] <mase_lap> that way, when content changes, you can  be automagically notified, or at least the person doing the changing
[15:38] <mase_lap> can see that it will effect other parts of the site
[15:38] <newz2000> mase_lap: have you ever seen such a thing?
[15:39] <mase_lap> kind of
[15:40] <mase_lap> i mean yes, but i don't know if it would be applicable in this situation. But i was assuming there would be other CMS's that do this.
[15:40] <mase_lap> i am pretty sure apache lenya does it
[15:40] <mase_lap> now that i think of it
[15:41] <mase_lap> is what canonical use something developed in house ?
[15:41] <newz2000> it's drupal, a php cms
[15:41] <mase_lap> ah ok. yeh  i know of drupal, haven't used it personally though
[15:42] <mase_lap> is that what the website is generated from, or is it actually what is storing the content ?
[15:42] <newz2000> both, it serves the content dynamically and there's proxy servers that cache and serve it statically
[15:44] <newz2000> I'm liking the idea of the site map, I think I will make this part of my wireframe
[15:44] <mase_lap> ok. so out of curiosity how do you find it ?
[15:44] <newz2000> mase_lap: find what?
[15:44] <mase_lap> drupal as a CMS. does it largely do what you require of it?
[15:44] <mase_lap> for Ubuntu.com et al
[15:45] <newz2000> yeah, its very flexible
[15:45] <newz2000> I personally think calling it a cms is a misnomer
[15:45] <newz2000> because it's a poor cms (as cms's go)
[15:45] <newz2000> it's more of a framework
[15:46] <mase_lap> ah k.
[15:48] <newz2000> mase_lap: you've definitely inspired me
[15:48] <newz2000> twice now!
[15:48] <newz2000> :-)
[15:48] <mase_lap> what are your thoughts on XSLT ? not clientside but server side. This is a leading question btw :)
[15:48] <newz2000> As a language I hate xslt, Its one of the few technologies that makes me want to swear.
[15:48] <newz2000> :-)
[15:49] <newz2000> but it does what it's supposed to do quite well
[15:49] <mase_lap> haha. ok then.
[15:49] <newz2000> but why do you ask?
[15:51] <mase_lap> well i was just thinking that having more structured data / cms might help internally. That way you can set up triggers etc.. internally to make sure that the data necessary to present the information on the web page
[15:52] <mase_lap> but that may not necessarily be the best tool for creating the website it's self
[15:52] <mase_lap> and your security policies are quite strict
[15:52] <newz2000> yeah, I think we've grown pretty comfortable with drupal. I'm not foreseeing too much change to the infrastructure in the near future
[15:52] <mase_lap> so if you could get cryptographically signed xml out of the cms
[15:53] <newz2000>  !!
[15:54] <mase_lap> so the content goes straight into drupal ?
[15:54] <newz2000> yes, often via a wiki or odt document first
[15:54] <mase_lap> and they are adding this content to a specific site ?
[15:55] <newz2000> yes
[15:55] <mase_lap> and the sites can't see each other for all intensive purposes
[15:55] <mase_lap> ?
[15:55] <newz2000> yes, but most content is on one site
[15:55] <newz2000> www.ubuntu.com
[15:55] <mase_lap> hmm your still pretty wedged between a rock and a hard place
[15:55] <newz2000> yeah
[15:56] <newz2000> my thinking is to migrate to more contextual navigation and have a global navigation be less comprehensive
[15:56] <newz2000> I think this would help users by limiting the number of decissions they need to make, and helping to steer them in the right direction.
[15:56] <mase_lap> yeh thats some good thinking
[15:56] <newz2000> it would help us by not needing to worry about keeping separate navigations up to date
[15:57] <mase_lap> i have a much better idea now of what your were talking about before
[15:57] <mase_lap> you can't really do a whole heap if you don't have the data
[15:58] <newz2000> what you're saying is good. Even with my navigation ideas there will be a problem
[15:58] <newz2000> because if you change a page you'll want to know what links to that page and might need changed
[15:59] <mase_lap> but thats going to be hard if its not done in a single source environment
[15:59] <mase_lap> and you can't share data
[15:59] <newz2000> I'm working this through in my mind...
[15:59] <newz2000> the tool I have is a wiki
[15:59] <newz2000> and if the sitemap is the wiki it could work
[15:59] <newz2000> but it's a bit of a manual process
[15:59] <newz2000> I wonder what tools are available to help with this
[16:00] <mase_lap> well how "correct" are your links ? from a tim berners lee perspective of the web
[16:00] <newz2000> what do you mean by correctness?
[16:00] <mase_lap> like is each URI an actual resource, no GET's which actually change content ?
[16:00] <newz2000> correct
[16:00] <mase_lap> cool, then you can spider the site
[16:00] <mase_lap> site(s) even
[16:00] <mase_lap> create a tree seperate to the cms
[16:01] <newz2000> ah, I see what you're saying
[16:01] <mase_lap> which can be looked up, regenerated
[16:01] <newz2000> have it update periodically
[16:01] <mase_lap> yeh, or in drupal
[16:01] <mase_lap> for each site
[16:01] <mase_lap> have it just post to something
[16:01] <mase_lap> which you can get to
[16:01] <mase_lap> or find someway of exporting that data
[16:01] <mase_lap> smtp :)
[16:02] <mase_lap> a simple xml representation of the tree would work
[16:02] <newz2000> my gears are turning
[16:02] <newz2000> there is a plugin for drupal that creates a google sitemap, which I believe is an xml representation
[16:02] <mase_lap> or just a serialised array
[16:02] <mase_lap> oh yeh
[16:02] <mase_lap> that would work nicely
[16:03] <mase_lap> that way, to validate links, you document() in all the xml files
[16:04] <mase_lap> and run xpath xpressions on all the links you have to the URI they link to, in most cases the xpath xpression will actually be pretty close to the href that you would see in the page
[16:04] <mase_lap> the only difference is that / for a site, would be the first child of the document
[16:05] <mase_lap> at least in my mind that works =)
[16:05] <newz2000> well, before much of that can be done some other tasks must come first
[16:05] <newz2000> social, not technical unfortunately
[16:05] <mase_lap> heh they are always the hardest
[16:05] <newz2000> yeah
[16:06] <mase_lap> i gotta say i really admire your ability to shepherd the ubuntu-website group
[16:06] <mase_lap> i think it's amazing you have the headspace for all those conversations
[16:06] <newz2000> thanks for the compliment, I hope that we'll become a successful team and accomplish some great stuff
[16:08] <mase_lap> people do seem very keen.
[16:08] <newz2000> so after I start discussions about necessary changes to the website with internal people I'll try as much as possible to pull the discussion back to the group
[16:08] <newz2000> there's too much talent and expertise and creativity not to try and benfit from it
[16:09] <Volans> Hi all :)
[16:09] <newz2000> and I know what you mean about wanting to contribute but not being graphically inclined. I do want to provide everyone an opportunity to help if they want to.
[16:09] <newz2000> hey Volans
[16:09] <newz2000> I have 17 emails in my "bugs" folder. :-)
[16:09] <newz2000> I can't wait to see all that you've done in there
[16:10] <Volans> I think my "fault"... ;)
[16:10] <mase_lap> cool. that would be really good. LIke i said before, i'm not really artistic so this is one of the few areas i feel i can contribute so that would be nice if you could notify the group
[16:10] <mase_lap> hey Volans
[16:10] <Volans> Hi mase_lap
[16:10] <newz2000> Volans: was that you that was working on the spreadsheet of tiemzones?
[16:11] <mase_lap> newz2000: sorry to bug you again, i am just curious, how do you handle translations?
[16:11] <mase_lap> within ubuntu.com
[16:11] <Volans> yes newz2000, I have worked on that
[16:11] <newz2000> mase_lap: right now we do no translations for the website
[16:11] <newz2000> I'm not sure how we're going to do it either
[16:11] <newz2000> Volans: we have an official log bot now, so I think we can start to plan our meeting
[16:12] <mase_lap> ah ok.  thats what i'm currently working on atm in another project, i'll let you know if we find a good way.
[16:12] <newz2000> mase_lap: is it for web content?
[16:12] <mase_lap> yeh
[16:12] <Volans> ok, I will do some work to make the spreadsheet clear for all
[16:12] <newz2000> mase_lap: have you tried launchpad?
[16:13] <newz2000> Volans: do you have google docs and spreadsheets?
[16:13] <mase_lap> newz2000: yeh, my only gripe with launchpad is that i seem to need to use bzr. which is a really good system, but php and python don't play as well as PHP and C
[16:13] <Volans> I can, I have many google account, I can put it there or make it directly in the google spreadsheets app
[16:14] <newz2000> mase_lap: bzr is giving you a problem with your source code?
[16:14] <mase_lap> and although I also like python, it doesn't have the share nothing architecture that I like about PHP
[16:15] <mase_lap> newz2000: it's probably a bit indepth and out of scope for this channel and this time of night. :)
[16:16] <newz2000> ok
[16:16] <newz2000> :-)
[16:16] <mase_lap> but yeh i like launchpad and bzr. Just would like the ability to use launchpad with say Git or SVN
[16:16] <newz2000> I've heard it didn't work well for long strings like pages and paragraphs, was wondering if you had found this to be true
[16:16] <mase_lap> i haven't done enough with it to know sorry.
[16:16] <newz2000> no prob
[16:17] <newz2000> translation is down the road for us
[16:17] <newz2000> ﻿﻿﻿Volans: what I was thinking was adding the spreadsheet to google docs for a bit and sharing it with the world so that the team members can add themselves and timezones
[16:17] <boredandblogging> wouldn't it better to do on the wiki?
[16:17] <Volans> newz2000: I was thinking that timezones are not the correct measure unit
[16:17] <newz2000> maybe, but does the wiki deal well with tabular data?
[16:18] <newz2000> Volans: better to let them choose time frames relative to UTC?
[16:18] <boredandblogging> newz2000: think it does ok: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
[16:18] <Volans> because I can live in GMT timezone but will be available for meeting only from 9 to 10 in the morning for example
[16:18] <newz2000> yeah
[16:19] <newz2000> yeah, but it can be a chore to manage, especially if you want to copy from a spreadsheet to the wiki
[16:19] <newz2000> there's a wysiwyg editor in 1.6, I wonder when we upgrade
[16:19] <newz2000> Volans: so here's another issue we have to think about...
[16:19] <newz2000> and its hard to say it, but here it is
[16:19] <newz2000> there are some people that *need* to be at the meeting for it to be successful
[16:20] <newz2000> so we'll have to work around their schedule, even if it means excluding some others
[16:20] <Volans> sure, is normal
[16:20] <newz2000> for example, I need someone from the doc team, preferably mdke, for the start page
[16:20] <Volans> we can't make a meeting without you and gerry I think
[16:20] <newz2000> gerry doesn't care I suspect
[16:20] <newz2000> unless it prevents me from doing something he wants me to do
[16:20] <Volans> newz2000: is very difficult to have Matt at a meeting... ;)
[16:21] <newz2000> see, ever since he got married last year...
[16:21] <newz2000> :-)
[16:21] <Volans> yeah
[16:21] <boredandblogging> lol
[16:22] <newz2000> nick, don't you go and start making major life changes now, hear me?
[16:22] <newz2000> ;-)
[16:23] <newz2000> let me see if mdke is available and when, then I'll send an announcement to the list
[16:23] <boredandblogging> i'm already married, so no worries there :-P
[16:24] <boredandblogging> and ubuntu is my mistress
[16:24] <Volans> LOL
[16:24] <newz2000> who needs second life?
[16:24] <boredandblogging> true!
[16:29] <Volans> newz2000: I think we have too many variables (date, time, 80 people subscribed to the list)
[16:29] <newz2000> yeah, that number is over 90 now I think
[16:29] <newz2000> but I agree
[16:29] <Volans> perhaps locking the date...
[16:29] <newz2000> sending an email to mdke now
[16:29] <Volans> or having 2-3 possible dates
[16:29] <Volans> ok
[16:30] <Volans> ask to him 2/3 date with 2 possible time in the day or something like so
[16:48] <Volans> newz2000: the meeting will be held here or on ubuntu-meeting?
[16:49] <newz2000> I think here since we have a log bot
[16:50] <newz2000> I want people to feel welcome to come in and having a meeting here will help facilitate that
[16:51] <Volans> ok
[16:59] <Volans> newz2000: I took the liberty of made this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Meetings
[16:59] <Volans> please check the inglish and feel free to change and adpat it to the team needs
[17:00] <Volans> ooops... s/inglish/english/
[17:05] <newz2000> :-)
[17:05] <newz2000> thanks
[17:06] <newz2000> Volans: what's your native language?
[17:07] <Volans> italian, I live in Italy notwithstanding my usual online time
[18:16] <Volans> newz2000: now I have to go, hoping the wiki page can be useful for the meeting survey... :)
[18:17] <newz2000> thanks, I think it will. you did good work.
[18:19] <Volans> today no bug work... I leave you some time to do the queued ones ;)
[18:20] <Volans> bye bye
[23:14] <pips1> newz2000: hi
[23:14] <newz2000> hey pips1!
[23:14] <pips1> how is it going
[23:14] <pips1> ?
[23:14] <newz2000> good here, we've had a pretty exciting start to the web presence team
[23:15]  * pips1 looks left and right
[23:15] <pips1> quite a bunch in here! .-)
[23:15] <pips1> :-)
[23:15] <newz2000> you should see the mailing list... about 90 people there atm
[23:15] <pips1> wow
[23:15] <pips1> nice
[23:16] <newz2000> what's happening on your end?
[23:16] <pips1> I was just about to appy the drupal security update... but someone beat me to it!
[23:16] <pips1> you?
[23:16] <newz2000> no, probably the sysadmins
[23:16] <newz2000> they're on the ball
[23:16] <pips1> right
[23:16] <pips1> good one
[23:16] <newz2000> they IM'd me this morning saying it was done
[23:16] <pips1> ah, ok
[23:17] <newz2000> pips1: so did you see the new kubuntu website>
[23:17] <newz2000> ?
[23:17] <pips1> http://kubuntu.org/
[23:17] <newz2000> yes
[23:17] <newz2000> they moved to drupal as well
[23:17] <newz2000> and we did something interesting for their download page
[23:17] <pips1> that didn't work
[23:17] <newz2000> try http://kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download
[23:18] <newz2000> maybe it would benefit you guys too...
[23:18] <pips1> erm... I'm getting Access Denied.
[23:18] <newz2000> oh really?
[23:18] <newz2000> maybe it won't benefit you then. :-)
[23:19] <pips1> heh
[23:19] <newz2000> ryanakca: know of any problems with kubuntu?
[23:19] <newz2000> kubuntu.org I mean
[23:19] <newz2000> it works for me...
[23:19] <newz2000> pips1: so you'll have to use your imagination then
[23:19] <newz2000> ﻿we made their download page an iframe that is served from the ubuntu
[23:20] <newz2000> that way the mirror list gets updated automatically when ubuntu's does.
[23:20] <newz2000> and gives a nice simple interface
[23:20] <newz2000> similar to ubuntu's but with diff colors
[23:20]  * pips1 wishes he could see the real thing
[23:20] <newz2000> I wonder why I can't and you can...
[23:21] <pips1> bizarre, indeed
[23:21] <pips1> ERROR
[23:21] <pips1> The requested URL could not be retrieved
[23:21] <pips1> Generated Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:19:38 GMT by jujube.canonical.com (squid/2.6.STABLE18)
[23:21] <newz2000> ooh
[23:21] <newz2000> Ng: are you around?
[23:22] <newz2000> Ng: unping, trying in #is instead
[23:23] <newz2000> one of the front end caches must be having a problem, which is why it works for me
[23:25] <pips1> right
[23:25] <pips1> squid
[23:27] <newz2000> pips1: several people on the team have asked me for non-graphic design projects to do. I don't know if you're looking for help on the edubuntu website and if you are looking if you have any tasks you'd be willing to farm out.
[23:27] <newz2000> but if you do, maybe you'd like to propose them
[23:28] <pips1> oh, nice. sure, we can use help!
[23:29] <newz2000> why don't you send me an email and I'll add them to the task lists (we have two, current tasks and future tasks).
[23:29] <newz2000> you don't have to give a ton of details but ideally the tasks would be very specific
[23:30] <pips1> I want to touch base with the edubuntu folks... i've been out of touch since uds..!
[23:31] <pips1> ok, i understand, there smaller and concrete the task, the more likely someone snaps it up... makes sense
[23:31]  * pips1 browses throught the ubuntu-website ML archive
[23:31] <pips1> *through
[23:32] <newz2000> pips1: I can't remember, do you have a co-webmaster for your site?
[23:32] <pips1> highvoltage:
[23:32] <newz2000> ah, right
[23:33] <newz2000> well, if you're not yet subscribed, you should consider yourself invited to participate in the web presence team list
[23:33] <pips1> I'm doing that now
[23:41] <newz2000> I will retire for a while, have a nice evening or whatever it is where you are. ;-)
[23:42] <pips1> ok, cu!
[23:42] <pips1> I'm going to bed soon
[23:53]  * Volans back