[14:48] <Volans> Hi all
[14:49] <newz2000> howdy
[14:54] <melat0nin> hi-ho
[14:55] <newz2000> just posted a web developer job to the employment page if anyone is interested
[14:55] <newz2000> (work from home)
[14:55] <melat0nin> o.O
[14:56] <newz2000> also there's a graphic designer job open, London based
[14:56] <Volans> QA Engineer?
[14:56] <newz2000> yeah, one of those too. Quality Assurance
[14:56] <melat0nin> lol
[14:56] <melat0nin> i can't find the jobs page on ubuntu.com
[14:56] <melat0nin> ironically enough
[14:56] <newz2000> www.ubuntu.com/employment
[14:56] <newz2000> (link is at the very bottom)
[14:57] <melat0nin> oh right, sorry :x
[14:57] <melat0nin> nice job
[14:57] <melat0nin> wish i had the expertise :)
[14:59] <Volans> newz2000: you maintain also the launchpad site?
[15:00] <newz2000> no, separate team
[15:00] <Volans> ah ok, because on edge there is a big problem with tabs
[15:00] <newz2000> I'd report it as a bug
[15:01] <Volans> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[15:01] <Volans> for example
[15:01] <boredandblogging> isn't edge for people who are LP beta testers?
[15:01] <Volans> maybe is already signaled, I don't have already check
[15:01] <melat0nin> newz2000: i wasn't sure if it's really a 'bug', but is it a good idea to have launchpad show people's email addresses in plan text? tis a spammer's dream
[15:01] <Volans> melat0nin: the email address is showed only after login
[15:02] <Volans> melat0nin: the jabber contact is plain text, but readable from bots
[15:02] <melat0nin> Volans: d'oh you're right
[15:02] <melat0nin> sorry ;)
[15:03] <newz2000> well, you're free to raise any concern as a bug
[15:03] <newz2000> let the developers decide
[15:03] <newz2000> but I'm pretty sure they'll ignore it, since they also list gpg keys which clearly expose email addresses
[15:03] <melat0nin> nah it's fine, i didn't think to check what it showed when not logged in.  I'm fine with other members seeing my addy :)
[15:03] <melat0nin> newz2000: oh yeah
[15:03] <melat0nin> hmm
[15:04] <melat0nin> that's not ideal
[15:04] <melat0nin> (imho)
[15:06] <newz2000> if you put your key on a server you really can't avoid the email getting shown. It's like getting listed in the telephone book. http://pgp.cs.uu.nl/doc/top_1000.html for example.
[15:06] <newz2000> (key server I mean)
[15:07] <melat0nin> yeah
[15:07] <melat0nin> might make a melat0nin mail for this kind of thing, in that case
[15:07] <melat0nin> does that involve creating a new key or can the addy just be changed? (i'm new to pgp)
[15:08] <newz2000> You can add a new email address to your key but I don't know if you can remove one. You'll have to ask around.
[15:08] <melat0nin> okay will have a dig
[15:09] <newz2000> but if you've already published it I don't suspect there's a huge benefit to unpublishing it at this point. Better to invest energy in a good spam blocker. :-/
[15:09] <melat0nin> spose
[15:09] <melat0nin> gmail does a good job, can't complain
[15:09] <newz2000> yeah
[15:09] <newz2000> ok, question for the day... do you like or dislike creating fixed width sites (as opposed to fluid or elastic sites)?
[15:10] <melat0nin> i like fixed
[15:10] <Volans> I don't like... I prefer % margin to the right and left
[15:10] <melat0nin> e.g. www.concernedcitizen.co.uk (my modded brainstorm site)
[15:12] <newz2000> and why do you like fixed width or fluid layouts?
[15:12] <melat0nin> fixed width = more control.  not great with all the different sizes of monitors today, though
[15:15] <Volans> fluid: more adaptable to all monitors from 10'' to apple's mega screens ;) (if the content is made in order to do that avoiding too much overlapping when reduced in size)
[15:15] <Volans> i prefer the % margins, like 4% for examples
[15:15] <newz2000> Volans: how wide is your web browser window typically?
[15:15] <melat0nin> trouble is some sites look rubbish with massive amounts of whitespace
[15:15] <Volans> alt+f10 ;)
[15:16] <newz2000> maximized?
[15:16] <newz2000> how wide in pixels? (if maximized, what's your screen res?)
[15:17] <Volans> newz2000: yeah, always and FF with only one toolbar, opened without borders with alltray, so having a 1280x800 laptop 15,4'' screen I maximize the vertical space
[15:18] <newz2000> I think I need to ask a larger group of users. We've gotten two replies, one for and one against fixed width.
[15:18] <melat0nin> lol
[15:18] <Volans> newz2000: I have signaled the FF 1.5 release notes bug to asac that have replied now: bug 243064
[15:18] <ubot3> Malone bug 243064 in ubuntu-website "page "releasenotes 604" not found" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/243064
[15:19] <newz2000> Google Analytics says only 7-8% of the website's users have a screen width less than 1024px wide but I'm curious how many people with 1024px screens use full width windows
[15:19] <newz2000> GA doesn't tell effective viewable screen size
[15:19] <melat0nin> newz2000: is it worth considering the layouts of other popular sites?
[15:19] <newz2000> yes, I've looked and most major homepages are fixed width
[15:20] <Volans> newz2000: take in consideration also the future diffusion of mini laptop like eeepc, olpc etc...
[15:20] <newz2000> I think that's because its easier to create an attractive visual presence with fixed width
[15:20] <newz2000> Volans: exactly my thought process
[15:20] <Volans> with screens from 8 to 12''
[15:20] <melat0nin> newz2000: i chose fixed width based on the BBC news website because it's the most used site in the UK apparently (and one of the most in the world)
[15:20] <newz2000> I've noticed that a lot of the major tech firms still target an 800px width for their homepage
[15:20] <melat0nin> newz2000: "I think that's because its easier to create an attractive visual presence with fixed width" precisely
[15:21] <newz2000> Volans: I've seen three types of small screen web browsers...
[15:21] <Volans> newz2000: I hate the very large empty margins in homepages... for example also ubuntu.com for me is too little now
[15:21] <newz2000> on eeepc type pcs they have an 800px wide screen so normal browsing works
[15:22] <newz2000> on iphones there's zooming so you get a normal experience
[15:22] <newz2000> and then most mobile phones butcher all formatting regardless
[15:22] <melat0nin> newz2000: i'll be getting a MSI Wind in the next few days (10"/1024x600) so i'll let you know ;)
[15:22] <newz2000> I need to get something small to start testing with. I've only played with them in the mall.
[15:23] <newz2000> (but the msi is too big to be representative of small screen browsers imho)
[15:23] <melat0nin> Yeah me too, actually planning to buy this weekend/early next week tho
[15:23] <newz2000> (still a cool device)
[15:23] <melat0nin> ah
[15:23] <melat0nin> okay
[15:23] <newz2000> melat0nin: do you have children?
[15:23] <Volans> newz2000: as an example (I don't like the site) look at http://virgilio.alice.it/ and click on the image to the top-left to enlarge
[15:23] <melat0nin> is it worth considering devices with less than 1024W resolution? the eeepc701 is the only one (800 wide), all newer UMPCs are generally 1024 or higher
[15:24] <melat0nin> newz2000: no, i'm 22 :)
[15:24] <newz2000> ok. I'm curious if webkinz works on those small notebooks. considering getting one for my son. :-)
[15:24] <newz2000> Volans: yes, it targets 800px wide
[15:24] <newz2000> but I think they've gone overboard
[15:24] <Volans> newz2000: nobody can say nothing if you made a 1000px fixed width site (24px are for the scrolling bar)
[15:24] <melat0nin> i don't like those buttons... i would have serious doubts about how many normal web users make use of them
[15:25] <newz2000> Volans: eeepc users would say something
[15:25] <Volans> eheheh
[15:25] <Volans> but I still prefer fluid
[15:25] <newz2000> it would annoy me too because I never keep my browser window > than 950px wide
[15:25] <melat0nin> newz2000: how many 701 owners are there? Is it worth catering for a pretty tiny market?
[15:25] <Volans> we ha made fluid the ubuntu-it sites
[15:25] <newz2000> depends on the site...
[15:26] <melat0nin> esp since the 701 is now obsolete and being replaced by >=1024px netbooks
[15:26] <newz2000> for ubuntu.com maybe not, I doubt it attracts many mobile users
[15:26] <newz2000> but 800px wide is huge for mobile devices and they are growing more and more common
[15:26] <melat0nin> perhaps something like 900? gives minimum cut-off for 800W devices
[15:26] <newz2000> too much cut off. 850 is max, and 800 is probably better
[15:27] <newz2000> that italian site is 750 which is too narrow
[15:27] <Volans> newz2000: and made a 500px or so version of the site for mobiles (wap/umts) and redirect there the 800px users?
[15:27] <melat0nin> hmm it's a difficult one
[15:28] <newz2000> I won't target anything smaller than 800px wide
[15:28] <Volans> newz2000: and for wap/umts/ or similar?
[15:28] <newz2000> ﻿I've been thinking about a layout that expands not by stretching content area but instead restacking the layout to optimize for less scrolling on wideer screens
[15:28] <newz2000> Volans: for ubuntu.com I don't think it's a target user
[15:29] <Volans> newz2000: very good idea the first! for target users... maybe ubuntu.com not, but wiki and forum yes
[15:42] <Volans> newz2000: apple use a 980px apparently fixed
[15:42] <Volans> width
[15:42] <newz2000> yeah, MS is 934
[15:43] <newz2000> oracle is fluid
[15:43] <newz2000> sun, redhat, ubuntu are fixed
[15:43] <Volans> redhat is 750.... too small
[15:43] <newz2000> I agree
[15:44] <newz2000> I wonder how many people think Ubuntu is too wide
[15:45] <Volans> opensuse is fullpage fluid but with minimun width at about 800
[15:45] <newz2000> not the homepage
[15:46] <newz2000> which imho is the only page on the site that looks nice
[15:46] <Volans> yeah, I mean the internal pages
[15:46] <newz2000> novell uses 924px fixed
[15:48] <Volans> fedora is fluid 18px fixed margin, very unlike when you resize the page due to a big image that exit on the right
[15:48] <newz2000> oh, they've improved their site recently
[15:48] <newz2000> nice job
[15:49] <Volans> newz2000: there are plan to put the ubuntu wiki on a more "web 2.0" layout?
[15:49] <newz2000> when we get something good we'll harmonize things
[15:49] <newz2000> assuming that comes after the upgrade to 1.6
[15:50] <Volans> ok I know that sysadmins are working on that
[15:50] <newz2000> fedora kind of does what I mentioned, optimize for less scrolling
[15:50] <newz2000> see here: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
[15:51] <newz2000> if you widen that page you get three columns, if you shrink it two and then one
[15:51] <newz2000> (in the blue boxes)
[15:51] <newz2000> its a little distracting, but maybe its just the contrasty black right border
[15:51] <Volans> is a simple <ul> but yes, good choice
[15:52] <newz2000> I really like their logo since they redid it
[15:52] <Volans> I have an hat with that logo :)
[15:52] <newz2000> well, I don't like it enough to wear it around. :-)
[15:53] <newz2000> (might send the wrong message)
[15:53] <Volans> I went to a fedora open day here in Rome and they give it and other gadgets
[15:53] <Volans> I went to see how they organised their fedora 9 release party
[15:57] <Volans> sun is 780px fixed
[16:21] <Volans> newz2000: for a bur related to the rendering problem of the hardy release day ( see http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13852773/Ubuntu%20Homepage%20AS.PNG ) I can mark it as fix released?
[16:23] <newz2000> yes, its resolved
[16:24] <Volans> and newz2000 perhaps you are interested in reply to the bug 221364 ;)
[16:24] <ubot3> Malone bug 221364 in ubuntu "Ubuntu webiste not easily accessible in different languages" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221364
[16:24] <Volans> s/interested in/interested to/
[16:24] <newz2000> sure, I can do that
[16:51] <Volans> newz2000: there is a "low" bug confirmed for the wiki footer... but it is a 2006 bug ;)
[16:51] <newz2000> confirmed? Interesting. what #?
[16:52] <Volans> bug 47051 already assigned to you ;)
[16:52] <ubot3> Malone bug 47051 in ubuntu-website ""Credits" and "Site Map" links on Edubuntu wiki are broken" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/47051
[16:52] <Volans> credits is correct, but sitemap is already broken
[16:53] <newz2000> go ahead and assign it to me and later today I'll see how difficult to resolve. I dont' think I have edit access to those atm.
[16:54] <Volans> is already assigned to you, I have replied, hoping this will send you a notification
[16:54] <newz2000> ok
[17:22] <Volans> newz2000: bugs related to servers ip are for the sysadmins, how to pass the bug to their team/project'
[17:22] <Volans> ?
[17:22] <newz2000> I think their team is canonical-sysadmin
[17:23] <Volans> so I assign it to them?
[17:24] <newz2000> are they old?
[17:25] <Volans> is only one, I have assigned it to them... :) some months ago
[17:25] <Volans> for the thai mirror
[17:26] <newz2000> you are killing those bugs Volans. :-)
[17:26] <Volans> ahahah
[17:41] <Volans> newz2000: this bug is old, but make sense for every develop version of Ubuntu. the Ubuntu+1 version: bug 195987
[17:41] <ubot3> Malone bug 195987 in ubuntu-website "Create placeholder for 8.04 release notes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195987
[17:44] <Volans> maybe discuss it directly with asac ;)
[17:44] <newz2000> that is a good idea
[17:45] <newz2000> it kind of exists now actually, because the redirect's decission loop will fall through and leave you on the page listing all of the release notes
[17:45] <newz2000> if(8.04) redirect to ./8.04; if (7.10) redirect to ./7.10; ...
[17:46] <Volans> or you can make a http://www.ubuntu.com/download/releasenotes/+1 page with temporary release notes or an alert that the release notes will be published only after the official release
[17:46] <Volans> and redirect there every if(>latestrelease)
[17:47] <Volans> (obviously depends on the code, how the wrapper is made)
[18:56] <Volans> I have to go... bye bye
[18:56] <newz2000> ok, ttyl Volans
[18:56] <pierrelourens> hello
[18:56] <newz2000> hey pierre
[18:57] <Volans> Hi pierrelourens,  bye bye see you
[18:57] <pierrelourens> see ya
[18:57] <pierrelourens> how are you matt
[18:58] <newz2000> pretty good here so far. :-) and you?
[18:58] <pierrelourens> pretty good.  just reminded why I left Apple... as my stepdad is having tons of trouble updating his iPod Touch.
[18:59] <pierrelourens> and catching up on the mailing list.  been busy lately :/
[19:00] <newz2000> the mailing list has slowed way down this week
[19:00] <BinaryDigits> I've been away for work, that's my only reason :)
[19:01] <pierrelourens> well there's always an initial surge and then it slows down
[19:01] <newz2000> yeah, that's ok with me
[19:01] <newz2000> though I would like to hear if anyone is working on the feature tour project
[19:01] <pierrelourens> I'd rather it be slow than overwhelming
[19:01] <pierrelourens> :)
[19:02] <BinaryDigits> yep me too
[19:04] <newz2000> I added some code to the ubuntu.com website that will track when people use the navigation
[19:04] <newz2000> so I can run reports starting next week to see if anyone uses the nav bars
[19:04] <newz2000> user studies indicate global nav is one of the less effective navigation techniques because people tend to ignore them
[19:05] <BinaryDigits> interesting
[19:05] <pierrelourens> I sure don't use it... but then again, I mostly just type the URL I need from memory
[19:05] <newz2000> yes, but imagine this... you've just bought a new thingamajig and plugged it into your pc
[19:05] <newz2000> nothing happens
[19:05] <newz2000> so what do you do?
[19:06] <BinaryDigits> google :)
[19:06] <BinaryDigits> home page
[19:06] <newz2000> homepage?
[19:06] <pierrelourens> Google / Ubuntu forums
[19:06] <BinaryDigits> or if we do it right... the new ubuntu start page would have it already
[19:06] <BinaryDigits> and people use that
[19:07] <pierrelourens> ding ding ding
[19:07] <BinaryDigits> w00t
[19:07] <newz2000> :-)
[19:07] <pierrelourens> Although, I did keep the ubuntu start page as my home page so I can generate canonical a little more money from google searches
[19:07] <pierrelourens> hah
[19:07] <BinaryDigits> I'm going to make a hand drawing on my ideas
[19:07] <BinaryDigits> then i'll scan it
[19:07] <newz2000> go for it
[19:08] <newz2000> that's how I usually work too... I've created my own graph paper in inkscape and print it out and draw on it
[19:08] <pierrelourens> i want the dot grid book : http://www.creativesoutfitter.com/Products/Dot-Grid-Book/9
[19:09] <newz2000> http://www.bearfruit.org/files/gnome-bday-concepts.png
[19:09] <BinaryDigits> i have a big sketchbook that i can use. I'm going to see if my scanner works in ubuntu actually, i have it set up on my mac already.... hmm
[19:09] <newz2000> scan, digital camera, whatever works
[19:09] <pierrelourens> BinaryDigits, how long have you been using ubuntu?
[19:09] <BinaryDigits> that looks nifty newz
[19:09] <newz2000> that was for the gnome bday homepage last year
[19:10] <pierrelourens> very detailed ;)
[19:10] <BinaryDigits> pierrelourens: off and on for about 3-4 years.  I started with Ubuntu as my main desktop after college on my custom pc... then went to Windows for a while due to work, and then decided to go towards mac recently since I wnated the macbook pro.  I always did have a spare pc with ubuntu however, so if i wanted to play i had it available
[19:11] <BinaryDigits> now i've put it on my Dell work laptop, as dual boot, so I can use it when I'm home or whatever
[19:11] <pierrelourens> Gotcha.  I like mac's build quality, one of the reasons i bought my macbook
[19:12] <BinaryDigits> yep, true, aesthetics was a big seller for me sadly hehe
[19:12] <pierrelourens> haha. completely understandable.
[19:12] <pierrelourens> Although, I still yearn to build a custom, completely native Linux PC
[19:12] <BinaryDigits> but I like that I know all 3 OS's and can use them interchangeably
[19:12] <BinaryDigits> you should, it's great :)
[19:13] <pierrelourens> Well, the only thing I don't have working great w/ my macbook is my MX revolution :(
[19:13] <BinaryDigits> For my old custom one i had to recompile the kernel to get my sound working, and it was a great feeling of accomplishment when I did
[19:13] <newz2000> yuck, I hated the bad ol' days
[19:13] <pierrelourens> newz2000, mm?
[19:14] <newz2000> of compiling kernels
[19:14] <newz2000> and etc
[19:14] <pierrelourens> I haven't used Windows since about 2005
[19:14] <pierrelourens> I never had that experience.
[19:14] <pierrelourens> I'm a young'un though..
[19:14] <newz2000> pierrelourens: how old are you?
[19:14] <pierrelourens> 16.
[19:14] <newz2000> have you met ryanakca, the kubuntu webmaster?
[19:14] <BinaryDigits> oh wow, i feel old hehe
[19:15] <newz2000> pierrelourens: I think he's about your same age
[19:15] <pierrelourens> BinaryDigits, if it makes you feel any better, I feel older/crankier than most of my peers.  Not to mention embarrassed because of my generation...
[19:15] <pierrelourens> newz2000, No, I haven't met him.. but I'll look into it :)
[19:16] <newz2000> if you had to be 25+ to help out Ubuntu we'd be half the OS we are now.
[19:16] <BinaryDigits> pierrelourens: really? how come?
[19:16] <pierrelourens> Well, thats the thing.  Because Ubuntu is open to youth, that's where we go... because there is no way for me to be involved with such a great community otherwise.
[19:17] <BinaryDigits> that's awesome :)
[19:17] <pierrelourens> BinaryDigits, If only you came to my high school for a single day.  There's a reason I'm very, very picky about my friends.
[19:17] <BinaryDigits> are they clique-y?
[19:18] <pierrelourens> Most of them are yuppies whose soccer moms are completely unaware of their drug use.
[19:19] <pierrelourens> I live in Raleigh, NC...which is the typical suburbia.  It's not very diverse.
[19:20] <BinaryDigits> oh yea, well you find that alot of places
[19:20] <BinaryDigits> I'm originally from New York..I grew up near Queens, but on Long Island, where you get that alot
[19:20] <pierrelourens> Yup.  Oh well :).  That's what the internet is for.
[19:21] <pierrelourens> And there are always pockets of interesting people.
[19:21] <pierrelourens> BinaryDigits, my girlfriend's dad grew up in brooklyn and her aunts currently live in Queens.
[19:21] <BinaryDigits> yep true
[19:22] <BinaryDigits> ah cool :)
[19:22] <pierrelourens> how's that sketch going?
[19:22] <BinaryDigits> i'm not doing it right now, getting ready for the gym. I will do it when I get back.  I just got home from work about an hour ago :)
[19:23] <BinaryDigits> I'll go do that now actually. See you gents in a bit!
[19:24] <pierrelourens> take it easy
[19:24] <pierrelourens> :)
[19:37] <pierrelourens> newz2000, do you prefer gnome or kde?
[19:37] <newz2000> gnome.
[19:37] <newz2000> nothing against kde just not had much opportunity to use it
[19:38] <pierrelourens> same here. just curious :)
[23:09]  * ryanakca is back after a week away
[23:09] <newz2000> hey ryanakca
[23:10] <ryanakca> woah, lovely away log...
[23:16]  * newz2000 goes fishing...
[23:28] <ryanakca> enjoy