[00:00] <pwnguin> __mikem: for what purpose?
[00:00] <__mikem> i want to see what I have to look forward to
[00:00] <pwnguin> im not sure the current theme is going to be the representative
[00:01] <__mikem> I've been on the edge of my seat since i heard they were replacing the theme
[00:01] <pwnguin> as i understand it, a stand in was pushed out simply to generate discussion about dark themes
[00:02] <pwnguin> a screenshot wouldn't do justice to the problem
[00:02] <__mikem> I was hoping they would be using this one http://tombuntu.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/gelatin.jpg
[00:02] <pwnguin> was that anything more than a mockup?
[00:03] <__mikem> I don't know i just found it on google image search
[00:05] <pwnguin> it would be really handy if there was an ettiquite that mockups be labelled so in the image
[00:06] <__mikem> I would just like to know, when I install download and install ubuntu in a few months, what can I expect to see when I start it up. All I know is right now, the current theme looks out dated and miles behind the standards for GUI that OSX and for god sakes even VISTA is setting
[00:08] <pwnguin> i dont think it looks too bad. if it's terrible, it might be a bug. sometimes gnome-settings doesnt load correctly for me
[00:08] <pwnguin> and it looks very gtk1 ish
[00:09] <__mikem> It doesn't look terrible, but it is still very much behind the times
[00:09] <pwnguin> and the times are gloss and gradients
[00:09] <__mikem> exactly
[00:10] <__mikem> http://www.breakitdownblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ubuntu-hardy-gelatin-large.jpg <-- for god sakes, if you could make it look like say this, things would be great and it would be trivial to do so
[00:11] <pwnguin> as best i can tell, the only significant change is a gradient to the gnome-panel
[00:12] <__mikem> Some round edges for the menu highlights would be nice to
[00:12] <pwnguin> it would help if you posted links tot he posts instead of the images directly
[00:12] <__mikem> sorry
[00:12] <__mikem> http://www.breakitdownblog.com/ubuntu-hardy-heron-804-theme-gelatin/
[00:13] <pwnguin> it might be a good idea to see about getting a gradient feature into gnome-panel itself
[00:14] <pwnguin> interestingly
[00:14] <pwnguin> it's already in the wiki
[00:15] <pwnguin> so I'm glad I asked instead of telling you about phoronix
[00:15] <__mikem> whats phoronix?
[00:16] <pwnguin> a news site that reports without interviewing anyone relevant
[00:16] <pwnguin> even though we're availabl
[00:16] <pwnguin> they published screenshots from the alphas
[00:19] <pwnguin> __mikem: i'll do you better than screenshots
[00:19] <__mikem> Do you have a beta CD?
[00:19] <pwnguin> i have a laptop with a development install
[00:20] <pwnguin> http://kims-area.com/?q=node/25
[00:20] <__mikem> Good, I'll get backto you when I get plane tickets to fly down and look at your screen :(
[00:20] <pwnguin> there's the developers latest version
[00:20] <pwnguin> should work on yours
[00:20] <pwnguin> in hardy
[00:21] <__mikem> Not bad. I have to say the color scheme looks very relaxing
[00:21] <pwnguin> i donno
[00:21] <pwnguin> the orange as selection is somewhat aggressive
[00:21] <__mikem> slightly but just turn down the gama and you should be good to go
[00:22] <__mikem> let me get my virtual machine running
[00:22] <pwnguin> do you not run ubuntu natively?
[00:22] <__mikem> not on my mac I don't
[00:22] <__mikem> I have it native on a machine but its in the other room
[00:23] <pwnguin> i see
[00:23] <pwnguin> thats cool. I just dont like getting comments from people with no skin in the game ;)
[00:23] <__mikem> you are going to have to help me install this thing because i don't remember how
[00:24] <pwnguin> its dead easy
[00:24] <pwnguin> download the .tar.gz to your desktop
[00:24] <pwnguin> system->pref->appearances
[00:24] <__mikem> okay
[00:24] <pwnguin> click the install button, pick out the tarball
[00:25] <pwnguin> and it should now have a new option to pick, and have changed it to that
[00:25] <__mikem> NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
[00:26] <pwnguin> I do like the fact that it's color parameterized
[00:26] <__mikem> yes theres only one problem that i see, and its easily fixed
[00:26] <pwnguin> the blue?
[00:26] <__mikem> well that, and that i still have to add the gradient back ground image to the panels
[00:26] <pwnguin> or the orange in the window picker?
[00:27] <__mikem> also the black menu highlights are a bit much
[00:27] <pwnguin> ?
[00:27] <pwnguin> im not running compiz
[00:27] <__mikem> I'm not either
[00:27] <pwnguin> oh, on the main menu
[00:27] <__mikem> when you click on the gnome menu at the top of the screen, the selected menu turns black
[00:27] <__mikem> it should turn orange
[00:28] <pwnguin> my main complaint is that the orange window list selection is highly distracting
[00:28] <pwnguin> i have a nice 21 inch desktop with high res
[00:29] <pwnguin> up at the top is this bright orange box representing irssi and its annoying the hell out of the corner of my eye ;)
[00:29] <DanaG> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.artwork
[00:30] <pwnguin> i wonder why the stat query didnt work then
[00:30] <DanaG> oh yeah, and the newsgroup link is nntp://  ...
[00:30] <DanaG> If you want to use newsreader software.
[00:30] <DanaG> s/I/i/
[00:31] <pwnguin> well, if gmane's loom can thread the ML, why cant thunderbird?
[00:33] <pwnguin> __mikem: if you're interested in that theme, i suggest you enroll http://kims-area.com/?q=blog/1/feed in your feed reader of choice
[00:33] <DanaG> Actually, it can.
[00:33] <DanaG> Click the column header with the tree-looking thingy.
[00:34] <__mikem> pwnguin: I am currently adding a few touches to the theme
[00:35] <pwnguin> __mikem: neat. tell him about it so he can merge it with his work!
[00:35] <__mikem> pwnguin: quick question, where did the gnome theme manager install that theme
[00:35] <pwnguin> phhshshh...
[00:35] <pwnguin> ~/.something probably
[00:35] <__mikem> I know, but theres a lot of . files
[00:35] <DanaG> ~/.themes
[00:36] <pwnguin> you act like i know this stuff. im just an unemployed programmer who isn't afraid to try ;)
[00:37] <__mikem> pwnguin: I don't know much more (if anything) than you do
[00:37] <pwnguin> then we can be ignorant together!
[00:37] <__mikem> But I program professionally and i know what end users like to see
[00:38] <pwnguin> well, i wont speak on behalf of other people
[00:38] <__mikem> Usually EUs don't care if technical people speak for them
[00:40] <pwnguin> an interesting exercise. replace "end users" with "women"
[00:40] <__mikem> pwnguin: I appologise if I come off as arogant, that is not my intension
[00:40] <__mikem> lol
[00:42] <pwnguin> well, i dont mean to make you feel or look bad, but it does raise an interestig question: does anyone ever intend to be arrogant?
[00:42] <__mikem> Do you know the HSL triplet of the orange color used in the theme?
[00:43] <pwnguin> i can do you one better
[00:43] <pwnguin> go to appearance
[00:43] <pwnguin> select the theme and choose "customize"
[00:43] <pwnguin> go over to colors
[00:43] <pwnguin> click on whatever interests you, and bam, colorpicker
[00:44] <pwnguin> i think we call it HSV
[00:45] <__mikem> if only I knew how to do a saturation in gimp
[00:46] <pwnguin> well, subscribe to the mailing list (or newsgroup)
[00:46] <pwnguin> the developer posts on ther
[00:46] <pwnguin> and ask / talk about it
[00:55] <__mikem> pwnguin: are you going to be here all night, because i should be able to have this done in about an hour
[00:55] <pwnguin> this is a screen session running irssi on a server
[00:55] <__mikem> okay
[00:56] <__mikem> then you should atleast be able to tell me who to send the tar.gz file to
[00:56] <pwnguin> barring reboots, network outages (we have been hit by a tornado in the past month) or anything else
[00:56] <pwnguin> i never leave
[00:56] <pwnguin> if you have your own hosting, that might be the best place
[00:57] <__mikem> pwnguin: I do but my web server has a bad power supply
[00:57] <pwnguin> im not aware of any standard diff for themes
[00:57] <pwnguin> it seems like the sort of thing that bzr should handle
[00:58] <pwnguin> but let us say that everyone's afraid the average artist can't handle bzr
[00:59] <pwnguin> if you open up the original tar.gz, gtk-2.0/gtkrc has some contact info embedded in a comment
[01:00] <__mikem> oh okay
[01:00] <pwnguin> the mailing list also appears to accept attachments
[01:02] <__mikem> That should do it, let me just retar this thing and I'll look at where to send it
[01:03] <pwnguin> see the topic ;
[01:03] <pwnguin> ;)
[01:04] <pwnguin> back to final fantasy tactics then
[01:09] <__mikem> pwnguin: I subscribed to the mailing list, how do I post to it?
[01:10] <pwnguin> it should tell you in the confirmation email?
[01:11] <__mikem> i just see info on how to complete the registration and what to do if i want to unsubscribe
[01:11] <__mikem> nothing about how to post to it
[01:12] <__mikem> oh I just recieved a "welcome" email that tells me
[01:15] <__mikem> pwnguin: okay, I just posted it, when you get a chance to view it on a computer that has X running, let me know what you think
[01:16] <pwnguin> heh
[01:16] <pwnguin> i have a computer with X
[01:16] <pwnguin> right now
[01:16] <__mikem> okay
[01:17] <__mikem> then by all means have a look. I included a screen shot in the tar.gz archive that I attached
[01:20] <__mikem> pwnguin: did my post go through yet?
[01:20] <pwnguin> yea
[01:21] <__mikem> attachment and all?
[01:21] <pwnguin> (sorry.... I uh...bio-break?)
[01:21] <pwnguin> yea
[01:21] <__mikem> beautiful, well extract it and have a look at the screen shot
[01:21] <pwnguin> i did
[01:21] <pwnguin> im using it right now
[01:21] <__mikem> :)
[01:22] <pwnguin> ok thats wierd
[01:22] <__mikem> ?
[01:22] <pwnguin> (did the old version do that?)
[01:22] <__mikem> do what?
[01:22] <pwnguin> when i click on applications
[01:22] <pwnguin> the terminal icon has a dark orange highlight
[01:22] <pwnguin> well, not dark. faint
[01:22] <__mikem> pwnguin: is it by any chance a launcher on the gnome panel?
[01:23] <pwnguin> yes
[01:23] <__mikem> oh, thats always been like that
[01:23] <__mikem> I have been complaining about that bug for ages
[01:23] <pwnguin> ive never seen that on human
[01:24] <pwnguin> are we sure its a bug with gnome panel and not the theme?
[01:24] <__mikem> pwnguin: when you click on something in the gnome panel, from then on, every time you click on the menu in gnome panel, the last item you clicked will always highlight like that
[01:24] <__mikem> it happens regardless of what theme you use
[01:24] <pwnguin> hmm
[01:24] <__mikem> the default human theme does it but it uses a dotted line square instead of a highlight
[01:24] <pwnguin> also, the seperator in that theme is blank
[01:25] <__mikem> Strange, I don't remember touching the separater
[01:25] <pwnguin> might also be part of his theme
[01:25] <pwnguin> finally, im not a fan of the icon theme
[01:26] <pwnguin> ugly green / tan folders
[01:26] <__mikem> pwnguin: you can change that
[01:26] <__mikem> I left it be because i thought you wanted it that way
[01:26] <pwnguin> i know, but we're talking about defaults here
[01:26] <pwnguin> "you"
[01:26] <__mikem> I thought "they" wanted it that way then
[01:27] <pwnguin> well, yea, less changes are better for inclusion
[01:27] <pwnguin> when he responds on list, I'll see about a launchpad page for the theme
[01:27] <pwnguin> and a bzr branch
[01:28] <__mikem> thanks :)
[01:28] <pwnguin> it'll be easier to manage in version control i think
[01:28] <__mikem> I'll sure feel honored if my changes make it into the final
[01:28] <pwnguin> __mikem: how's the alert work?
[01:28] <__mikem> the what?
[01:29] <pwnguin> in the theme
[01:29] <__mikem> No idea, i didn't change that
[01:29] <pwnguin> some windows set an ALERT status
[01:29] <pwnguin> im curious how the coloring affects that
[01:30] <__mikem> pwnguin: the only tools i used were colorization and brightness and contrast settings
[01:30] <__mikem> and some alpha blend
[01:31] <pwnguin> ok
[01:32] <pwnguin> then i guess they're just general complaints relevant to the theme, not your changes ;)
[01:50] <__mikem> Its been a while since I contributed to a project, I forgot how satisfying it is
[20:28] <xanax`> hello
[21:24] <__mikem> hey pwnguin are you around?
[21:29] <__mikem> well if not, is there anyone here who can look at some fixes i made to the current geliten theme?
[21:32] <pwnguin> i am
[21:32] <__mikem> oh okay
[21:32] <pwnguin> just rebooted
[21:33] <__mikem> I made one more correction to the theme
[21:38] <__mikem> pwnguin: I just added my updates to the mailing list if you want to use it
[21:41] <__mikem> are you still there?
[21:43] <pwnguin> ye
[21:43] <pwnguin> just checking my email
[21:44] <__mikem> the problem I found the buttons in the task list at the bottom would turn blue if they were inactive and you hovered so I had to change that
[21:46] <pwnguin> desaturated orange?
[21:46] <pwnguin> (and blue text?)
[21:46] <__mikem> hold on
[21:47] <__mikem> your looking at the actual window, I am looking at the panel at the bottom of the screen where buttons for each window appear
[21:50] <pwnguin> yes
[21:50] <pwnguin> (mine is at the top, but i understand your meaning)
[21:50] <pwnguin> unfortunately, I can't take that theme in long doses
[21:51] <__mikem> pwnguin: if you could tell me what the problem is, I might be able to fix it
[21:51] <pwnguin> its too bright
[21:51] <pwnguin> too orange
[21:51] <__mikem> so, we need to turn the gama down and the contrast up
[21:52] <pwnguin> explain to me what you think gama is, so we can be on the same page
[21:52] <__mikem> pwnguin: gamma is how intense the color is
[21:52] <pwnguin> so saturation
[21:52] <__mikem> and contrast is how accentuated it is
[21:53] <__mikem> I took a web design course once and they did some cursory graphic design, and I still remember the jargon :)
[21:54] <pwnguin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction
[21:55] <__mikem> That refers to distortion due to defraction
[21:55] <__mikem> its a different thing
[21:55] <__mikem> refraction rather
[21:55] <pwnguin> what?
[21:55] <pwnguin> no
[21:55] <__mikem> Oh sorry, I saw the pictures of the lady in the water and i thought of something else
[21:57] <pwnguin> gamma correction, is about brightness, not color ;)
[21:57] <__mikem> brightness yes
[21:57] <__mikem> intensity
[21:58] <__mikem> in the RGB color space intensity is the same as the brightness when it comes to your reds greens and blues
[21:58] <__mikem> Maximum intensity of all colors will yeild white
[21:58] <pwnguin> hsv this is represented by v
[21:59] <__mikem> I know, I never learned HSV so I am kind of trying to translate concepts on the fly in my head :(
[22:00] <pwnguin> think of hue as wavelength, saturation as how dominant the wavelength is in the mix, and value/lightness as the number of total photons
[22:02] <__mikem> pwnguin: I am going to try dulling out the orange a bit, should be easier on the eyes
[22:02] <pwnguin> im still not sold on color for the window list
[22:02] <__mikem> I know its a bit too bright as well
[22:11] <__mikem> in HSV which one controls intensity again?
[22:24] <__mikem> pwnguin: wow, now that doesn't look good at all. Its too dulled out
[22:25] <__mikem> Looks like I lack the skills necessary to fix it any further
[22:59] <xanax`> the newhuman window decoration theme is simply awesome
[22:59] <xanax`> congratulations to the artists
[23:01] <pwnguin> i should update my theme
[23:02] <pwnguin> err
[23:02] <pwnguin> laptop
[23:04] <__mikem> xanax`: screen shot?
[23:05] <__mikem> xanax`: I was working on the geliton theme earlier
[23:07] <xanax`> it's the chocolate theme..
[23:07] <xanax`> hold on, uploading a screenshot
[23:12] <__mikem> you sure are taking your time
[23:15] <xanax`> http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9136/captureys2.png
[23:15] <__mikem> wow, what a disappointment
[23:15] <xanax`> sorry, I am having problems with program that doesn't want to compile
[23:15] <xanax`> why ?
[23:16] <__mikem> xanax`: it looks just as outdated and dull as the current ubuntu theme
[23:16] <xanax`> which one do you have ?
[23:16] <__mikem> Compared to OSX and even Vista for Gods Sake, this appearence is an embarasment
[23:17] <__mikem> There are PLENTY of better themes that look beautiful, and can match if not surpas the beauty of OSX and vista, so why do you have to use this junk
[23:17] <xanax`> I am longing to test this theme : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
[23:18] <xanax`> if it gets released
[23:18] <__mikem> NOW THATS MORE LIKE IT!
[23:18] <__mikem> That is what ubuntu needs
[23:18] <xanax`> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Hardline
[23:19] <__mikem> that one aint bad either
[23:19] <__mikem> either of those would be acceptable and be competitive in todays world, but that chocolate theme is and I am sorry to be so blunt, a complete waste of effort
[23:20] <__mikem> What I would like to know is WHY CAN'T THESE THEMES BE THE DEFAULT THEME
[23:20] <__mikem> Why do they have to use chocolate, why do they have to knowingly pick an inferior concept
[23:22] <__mikem> xanax`: do you understand what I mean?
[23:22] <xanax`> yeah
[23:22] <xanax`> I still like the chocolate theme because its unusual.. to have a dark theme as default
[23:22] <__mikem> The fact is, OSX and vista are dwarfing most of the current linux distros in the UI department and its something that SHOULD be easy to fix
[23:22] <__mikem> I don't WANT chocolate as the default
[23:23] <xanax`> btw, the 2 mockups theme I pasted are just mockups I think..
[23:23] <__mikem> I want a theme that can allow people to take linux seriously as a desktop OS
[23:23] <xanax`> I DO hope they'll be release one day or the other..
[23:24] <__mikem> Its enough hoping, does the person who is INCHARGE of the artwork lurk around at all, because its time I had a word with him
[23:25] <xanax`> I don't think being aggressive will help..
[23:25] <__mikem> I won't be
[23:25] <__mikem> I'll be civil
[23:25] <xanax`> ok then :-)
[23:26] <__mikem> I really just want to make sure they don't blow their opertunity to give linux a kickstart
[23:26] <__mikem> and either of the mockup themes you have posted would do just that
[23:27] <__mikem> I am talking about marketability, and even a free piece of software cancapitalize on the basic principles of marketing
[23:27] <__mikem> especially when that piece of software is as well writen as the linux kernel and the other apps that sit on top of it
[23:29] <__mikem> xanax`: are you going to go get him or something?
[23:30] <xanax`> I don't know any official ubuntu artist here..
[23:30] <xanax`> I am just a ubuntu user
[23:31] <__mikem> What about the person who is currently op'ed
[23:31] <xanax`> he may not be behind his keyboard..
[23:32] <__mikem> kwwii: are you around, I would like to voice some concerns
[23:32] <__mikem> if thats alright with you ofcourse
[23:32] <xanax`> have you posted on brainstorm.ubuntu.com about your "feelings" ?
[23:33] <xanax`> there are some ideas about the default theme
[23:33] <__mikem> xanax`: I would feel better if my corospondance occured within a realtime medium
[23:34] <xanax`> ok
[23:36] <xanax`> have you also found some good mockups or nice theme ideas you would like to share with me ?
[23:37] <__mikem> yes
[23:37] <__mikem> hold on
[23:39] <__mikem> http://tombuntu.com/index.php/2008/02/04/new-theme-for-ubuntu-804-deferred/
[23:40] <xanax`> simple and clear. i like it. (though I still prefer my "BasicIdeals" mockup :p)
[23:41] <__mikem> Yes I do to
[23:43] <xanax`> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/SharpChocolate
[23:43] <xanax`> that's more "chocolate' than the newHuman theme
[23:43] <__mikem> xanax`: thats a step in the right dirrection but it needs more transparency and gloss
[23:44] <zerwas> no good contrast there :-(
[23:45] <xanax`> yep, maybe the color of icon fonts is too dull
[23:46] <xanax`> and I dislike the iconset shown on the "Pictures - File Browser" window
[23:49] <zerwas> the actual intrepid theme is a good compromise between contrast and darkness
[23:49] <zerwas> but in my opinion there is still too much grey in the colour of intrepids NewHuman
[23:50] <__mikem> zerwas: does the actual intrepid theme have some gloss or atleast make any attempt to compete with OSX and Vista?
[23:50] <zerwas> no.
[23:50] <xanax`> __mikem : I think they (official artists) don't plan to "compete" with those OSs
[23:51] <zerwas> __mikem, you can try it out by yourself if you are running Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy)
[23:51] <xanax`> they maybe want to make a good theme for all users, easy to "use"
[23:51] <__mikem> I am
[23:52] <zerwas> i use #4A3A2D - looks much better in my opinion. and does not only look "old" like the actual NewHuman colour scheme
[23:52] <__mikem> users want a theme that looks pretty, not a theme that looks like we are trapped in the world of several years ago
[23:52] <__mikem> zerwas: does it look glossy?
[23:53] <__mikem> here tell you what, how do I get the actual theme on my ubuntu machine?
[23:53] <zerwas> __mikem, the colour? nope
[23:53] <zerwas> __mikem, one second.
[23:53] <__mikem> first problem, most users like gloss
[23:53] <zerwas> add these two lines to your /etc/apt/sources.list
[23:53] <zerwas> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kwwii/ubuntu hardy main
[23:53] <zerwas> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/kwwii/ubuntu hardy main
[23:54] <zerwas> Do you know how to add repositories to your installation?
[23:54] <__mikem> i am using the software sources thing
[23:54] <zerwas> sorry for highlighting you kwwii
[23:55] <__mikem> okay I think they are added
[23:58] <__mikem> zerwas: the lines are added
[23:58] <__mikem> now what?