mase_slapthey newz2000 mind if i pm you ?13:30
newz2000mase_slapt: no need to ask. ;-)14:30
Volansnewz2000: Hi, perhaps have you planned to reply to the list's mail I have sent with the question about the start page topic?15:44
pepby the way, we're porting the ubuntu08 shiît theme to drupal 6....15:46
pep(hi all)15:46
pepthe guy's trying to do it real clean so that it can be re-used15:47
pep(in case anyone uses a 6.x website :-)µ15:47
Volansgood news pep, are you using the theme developed by the US Locoteam you mentioned some days ago?15:49
pepit is for drupal 5 and the menu on the right is not drupal compatible, they're hard-coded links...15:50
pepnot like the shipit site15:50
pepso my friend Houbsi took the original shipit css and worked from there, but it's not finished yet15:50
Volansoh great15:52
pepyeah I'll stay in touch15:52
newz2000pep: good news, please do share it15:54
pepI will :)15:54
newz2000Volans: I will re-read it and be prepared to discuss it for the meeting today15:54
newz2000the startpage is something I defintely want to discuss15:54
pepoh and he asked me how this was with the credits on the bottom of the page and the license for the theme... because there is a "© 2008 Canonical Ltd"15:55
Volansok, I asked because I have made a mockup example and I thinked that is better to public it after the clarification of the Start Page goal15:55
Volanspep: see here: http://www.ubuntu.com/legal15:56
newz2000pep: please change that to match your communitie's need15:56
newz2000just observe the trademark policy with respect to the logo and name usage15:56
newz2000Volans: feel free to share your mockup if you're comfortable doing so. It can only aid in discussion, not hinder15:56
pepI'll try to understand that :)15:57
Volansnewz2000: ok :) I will put it on the wiki page soon15:57
newz2000pep: this is a better link: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy15:57
pepOk, I suppose I have "the relevant rights and permissions from the copyright holder" :)15:58
pepthanks newz200015:58
pepOk, my questions re answered concerning trademark... Now there was another thing... he asked me if he could put on the template that it had been ported to drupal 6.x by him.. I said ihe could technically, but that wasn't really the way things are done in our community, as you'd end up with hundreds of credits everywhere over the time... now was I right saying that?16:04
pepit's like crediting inside the code if you add something imo16:04
newz2000I straddle the fence on this one. I know that giving credit publicly greatly helps motivate people and I suggest doing this, however putting it on the bottom of the template probably isn't correct.16:05
newz2000You may want to create a "credits" page and list major contributors there16:05
vbabiyHey how are you all doing?16:06
pepI thin k exactly like you, and I think this might come because we are involved in Ubuntu and know the open source way pretty well... but he had some difficulties understanding that..16:06
pepfine vbabiy thank you :)16:06
vbabiyLooking forward to the meeting :)16:07
ryanakcaMeeting in an hour?18:02
Volansryanakca: no, 20 UTC ;)18:03
Volans3 hour18:03
Volansnewz2000: just added my proposal to the Start Page wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage ;)18:04
* ryanakca nods and grumbles at poor time convertion skills18:04
* ryanakca wonders if that's the correct spelling of convertion18:04
* ryanakca nods, thanks18:05
Volansryanakca: where are you from?18:05
jpdsryanakca: 'date -u'18:05
newz2000oh, that's a nice trick18:06
ryanakcaVolans: Kingston, Ontario :)18:06
ryanakca(I guess I should specify than Ontario is a canadian province)18:06
Volanstoo distant from GMT for a quick conversion... :)18:07
* nand just come back from holidays18:07
VolansHi nand18:07
jpds'lo nand18:08
nandnewz2000: anything came up with the navigation, and specifically with the intersite nav?18:08
nandsorry I didn't read all the mails yet :)18:08
newz2000no, I've got a lengthy email to gerry in the works18:08
ryanakcahalf the year it's -5, others it's -4, I get mixed up between the two. It would be easier if everybody just used UTC and people wrapped their head around the possibility that the sun could rise at 1300 and set at 0100 :)18:08
newz2000nand: so no change yet18:09
newz2000I hope to get internal discussion started this week though18:09
Volansryanakca: I will prefer so much if only DST will be used for the whole year18:09
newz2000nand: mpt is the person behind launchpad's ui and is also very interested in this subject too.18:10
risbacgood luch Matt ;)18:10
risbacluck (oupssss)18:10
mptHello hello18:10
nandokay. since we gonna again change the top navigation for QA related website plus brainstorm, I'm interested too :)18:10
Volanssorry guys but now I have to go, see you later for the meeting :)18:11
newz2000nand: interestingly enough, mpt reminded me that this problem existed (slightly differently) in the previous revision of the website with the bouncing tabs18:11
stgraberhey there18:11
newz2000making it one of our longest standing website annoyances18:12
newz2000howdy stgraber18:12
nandstgraber <= he's working on the QA sites18:12
* mpt wonders if newz2000 has any experience with making IE tolerate negative margins :-)18:12
newz2000mpt: I've used negative margins..., are you doing header image replacement?18:12
newz2000oh, that's negative indent18:13
mptnewz2000, no, just aligning headings to the left of the rest of the section18:13
newz2000mpt: the first time I did it was when I used this layout here: http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/skidoo_too/18:13
newz2000it uses negative margins for the left column18:13
mptWorks fine in FF2, FF3, Opera, Midori, and IE for the first couple of seconds. Starts sucking in IE a couple of seconds after the page loads.18:14
newz2000mpt: wow, that's an interesting problem18:18
risbacan interesting problem? :) You are very optimistic, i would say a huge waste of time because of Microsoft :)18:19
mptAlso works after resizing the IE window :-)18:19
newz2000mpt: if instead of -212px you use -211 does it work better?18:20
* newz2000 wishes for ie firebug18:20
risbacMatt, did you try the developer toolbar for IE? it's nothing close to firebug or webdeveloper under FF, but it helps18:21
newz2000I'm digging way back but seem to remember something about the negative indent having a prob if it matched the margin18:21
newz2000risbac: I thought it died with IE 5.518:21
* newz2000 googles18:21
risbacthis one: http://www.microsoft.com/downloadS/details.aspx?familyid=E59C3964-672D-4511-BB3E-2D5E1DB91038&displaylang=en18:22
mptnewz2000, nope18:22
* mpt blinks18:30
mptI think I've fixed it18:30
* Volans back18:44
vbabiyThe meeting is in a hour right?19:49
=== pep` is now known as pep
pepvbabiy: correct, in an hour and 10 minutes19:50
vbabiysee you then19:50
newz2000I think the process of coordinating meetings could improve19:51
newz2000Even though I know what time it is there's this fear of, "did I do mymath wrong?"19:51
newz2000and really, this mess of dealing with repetitive math is what computers excel at19:51
pepThat would be an idea...19:55
pepa website dedicated to coordination.19:55
pepwith all meetings (logs, agendas, minutes, etc...)19:55
nandthe fridge? :)19:56
nandbut improved19:56
newz2000yes, but ideally, it would say, "the meeting starts in 1 hour"19:56
pepexactly, and give the time in UTC as well as your current time19:56
newz2000so that we don't have to worry about timezones19:56
nandin #ubuntu-meeting you can ask the bot for that19:56
pepI mean we are capable of doing it xD19:56
pepnand: but it would be better to optimize the source imo19:57
newz2000nand: its probably not appropriate while a meeting is in progress though19:57
pepthat is the fridge for now19:57
Volansnewz2000: meeting in 8 minutes?20:52
* newz2000 is ready20:52
* vbabiy is standing by :)20:52
twilighthello there20:53
newz2000hello twilight20:53
vbabiyhello every one20:54
risbac4 minutes? I still didn't have my dinner :)20:56
Volansrisbac: be very quickly or push back the dinner of one hour ;)20:57
risbacI'm pushing it back! One is sleepy with a too full stomach ;)20:57
newz2000I'm aiming for 40m btw with any remaining time being less formal discussion20:57
Volansnewz2000: checked the ubuntulog bot?20:58
newz2000appears to be working fine20:58
newz2000we have no way of marking the log file though, except with some visual indicator20:58
Volansyou can cat the log file after and put only the meeting part in another file somewhere20:59
newz2000yes, that will work fine20:59
newz2000or we can summarize it as minutes21:00
newz2000but as I see it, we should be about ready to start21:00
newz2000----------------- BEGIN MEETING ---------------------21:00
newz2000good morning/evening/afternoon everyone21:01
newz2000I'm glad you could join us for our first meeting21:01
newz2000My name is Matthew Nuzum, aka newz (pronounced like new zealand bout without the 'land' at the end)21:01
newz2000I'm the ubuntu.com webmaster and a canonical employee21:02
newz2000I'm excited to see the participation we're having in the group and hope that we can continue to make progress21:02
newz2000My goal with our first batch of projects is for them to provide a good variety of meaningful work that will allow our group to show the world what we can do21:03
newz2000if we succeed, and I'm sure we will, then we'll be able to move on to bigger and better things21:03
newz2000Speaking of projects, this is the first thing on our agenda for this meeting21:03
newz2000so I wanted to take a moment to discuss each of our tasks21:04
newz2000on our homepage (our team's homepage) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website21:04
newz2000you'll see the current tasks listed21:04
newz2000they are:21:04
newz2000   IntrepidCountdownBanners21:05
newz2000    IntrepidFeatureTour21:05
newz2000    IntrepidStartPage21:05
newz2000    HardyStartPage21:05
newz2000    CommunityWebsite21:05
newz2000     CloseBugs21:05
newz2000Let's start with the countdown banners21:05
newz2000If you've watched the website during the last two releases you've seen a prominent banner counting down the days until release21:06
newz2000we've also made it so that this banner can be syndicated on other sites too21:06
newz2000for example, it's been on the fridge and many many other sites21:06
newz2000the syndication occurs by a website owner copying and pasting a single line of html/javascript into their page21:06
newz2000as seen here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/countdown21:07
newz2000this javascript does a simple calculation that figures out the number of days until release and loads the correct image21:07
newz2000I've had numerous people say, "my specialty is web graphics, how can I help?"21:08
newz2000So as I was planning this team I felt this would be an awesome first project21:08
newz2000as you can see on our project page, there is already progress: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners21:16
newz2000I personally don't feel like we have to choose a single banner to syndicate21:16
newz2000though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage21:16
pepoh :)21:16
risbacflooder flooder!21:16
pepwelcome back21:16
risbacmaybe we should react from time to time, like "mmm" or "oh yes"21:16
newz2000hi, what was the last thing you heard me say?21:16
Volans(22:16:10) newz2000: though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage21:17
newz2000oh crud21:17
Volans(22:16:10) newz2000 ha abbandonato il canale (quit: Excess Flood).21:17
newz2000what? excess flood. :-)21:17
Volansyeah :)21:17
risbacyes, you are talking too much :)21:17
newz2000let me see what you missed21:17
* ryanakca shuffles in quietly21:17
pep(to be honest I was wondering if my connection was bugging when there was this 8 minute break...)21:18
* nand too21:18
newz2000wouldn't want to get booted for flooding again by pasting in whole backlog21:19
mpt"target dimensions of 180x150, which is a standard banner ad size"21:20
risbac"The images should not make reference to "Intrepid Ibex" since this is a code name that will not be used once we hit beta (when the banners start to be used)" You can explain that?21:20
mptI seem to recall that we had problems with the countdown not appearing for 8.04, precisely because it was a standard banner ad size21:20
newz2000according to http://www.iab.net/iab_products_and_industry_services/1421/1443/145221:20
newz2000mpt: no that was because the word "banner" was in the url21:20
mptoh, ok21:20
nandtechnical remark, since some content engines do not allow JS to be inserted (or filter it), why not use directly an <img> with an autogenerated image?21:21
newz2000nand: we shy from dynamic content, especially something syndicated since it will impact server availability during the crushing release-day rush21:21
risbaccache pbs?21:21
pepnand: there can be one image done for anti-js admins, but I think that js is a good idea21:22
nandthe autogenerated image would use cache internally => generating the image once in a while, and storing in it cache21:22
stgraberor just a simple symlink :)21:22
nandtoo :)21:22
newz2000symlink would probably get sysadmin approval21:23
nandanyhow, I can provide the code if anyone wants it21:23
Volansthe symlink in the image server to the right image can be very quick and smart solution IMHO21:23
newz2000so a lot of the images that have been proposed are in the category I'd call, "plyaing it safe."21:24
vbabiynewz2000: where are these images going to be hosted?21:24
pepIt is a god idea.. we can push many peolpe to participate and contribute their design of the banner, and add some sort of ticker system.. it raises pride if your banner is the most used.. (what do you think?)21:24
newz2000www.ubuntu.com's static media servers21:24
newz2000pep, I'd llike to have more involvement for sure. I'm not sure what annalysis options we'll have21:24
newz2000new art tends to be a bit edgy, and then gets toned down for production21:24
newz2000I'm surprised that we've not had more radical looking submissions21:25
newz2000Personally, I like to see the edgy stuff so would love to see some new stuff show up21:25
vbabiynewz2000: I have been working on one but haven't had a chance to finish it21:25
pepMhh.. this is a little abstract.. just an idea.. but it would be something to present to an infographics class at some school...21:25
Volansbe careful with the caching directive for the static image/symlink option or the browsers will cache the wrong one21:26
newz2000yes, that had crossed my mind21:26
vbabiyVolans: that could be a big problem21:26
newz2000lets focus on questions about what type of art is useful and then move on to the next agenda item21:26
risbachow about an image revealing the new look of 8.10 day by day?21:26
newz2000any questions about acceptability?21:26
newz2000risbac: good idea21:26
newz2000I like it21:26
risbacthis way, it's more than "just" a number21:27
Volanslike a puzzle, good idea21:27
newz2000it will take some coordination with the art lead and the distro team21:27
vbabiyrisbac: But that all depends on when the look will be finalized .21:27
risbacbut it would require that we have the final theme earlier ;)21:27
risbacjust an idea21:27
newz2000risbac: it may be necessary to change the feature every four or five days21:27
vbabiyrisbac: yeah I do like21:27
risbacif we have the theme, then why not21:27
newz2000we can always use the hardy theme, I suspect the end theme will not differ greatly21:27
risbacanyway, with multiples versions, we have multiple plans B...21:28
vbabiynewz2000: but if thats the case then there won't be much surprise for the end user :)21:28
risbacyes, must be something intriguing, something new21:28
newz2000I'll let you artists figure that part out. ;-)21:29
risbacyeah, me too, I suck in gimp ;)21:29
newz2000I don't think we need to assign a driver for this task because everyone can lead their own idea21:29
vbabiyalso there are some many screen shot tour out there that people will already have seen any new looks21:29
newz2000speaking of which, lets move on to the feature tour21:29
newz2000this is the next todo list item21:30
newz2000Assuming we pull it off, it will be featured prominantly on the ubuntu homepage and will get a lot of eyeballs21:30
newz2000http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/ currently21:30
vbabiywow the feature just became a more important21:31
vbabiyfeature tour*21:31
newz2000yes, I'd love to see something that makes people scream wow!!!21:31
vbabiyand fall out of their chiars21:32
risbacis it just about the graphical part, or the content too?21:32
newz2000lets focus on the graphical part21:32
newz2000and the distro team can help us suggest content21:32
vbabiyI think everything has to be top notch21:32
newz2000we will then need to deliver the content near release day21:32
newz2000I don't think the layout has to be constrained to match ubuntu.com, though it should bare enoug resemblence that people don't wonder where they're at21:32
vbabiybut will that still be allowed if its on the homepage21:33
newz2000I think the current tour does a good job of being harmonious with ubuntu.com but still looks markedly different21:33
vbabiyyeah I see what you mean21:34
newz2000So the big requirement is no flash21:35
newz2000as cool as it would be, we just can't use a technology that would be inaccessible to new ubuntu users21:35
ymandoes JS support transition effects for images?21:35
VolansAJAX is allowed?21:35
newz2000ajax is definitely allowed21:36
pepAjax is good imo...21:36
vbabiyI think we can do everything we need in JS21:36
newz2000I agree21:36
risbacpages are a bit static, we could use ajax to hide text and show it only on click with a cool effect21:36
twilightI've already posted this link on our ML, what do you think of this feature tour http://www.ubuntu-it.org/index.php?page=caratteristiche ?21:36
Volanswait some seconds after the load of the page ;)21:36
risbacfaster would be nice yes21:36
newz2000so this is good for discussion but leaves me wanting a bit more21:37
newz2000and maybe if I could read italian I'd be ok21:37
ymanIs it possible to make images download in the background before they are displayed? How about before the img tag even exists?21:37
newz2000yman: yes21:37
vbabiyyman: yes21:37
newz2000people visiting ubuntu.com will already have mootools in their browser cache21:38
vbabiythe power of JS is very under estimated by a lot of people.21:38
newz2000mootools provides excellent effects and ajax support21:38
ubristhe tour must also function without JS imo21:38
newz2000ubris: good point21:38
twilightnewz2000: ahahah, the italian content is only a translation of the english version (ubuntu.com)21:39
newz2000ok, the navigation on the left is site navigation then21:39
risbacfirst page lacks some images21:39
Volansthe title are the equivalent of the right menu in the english version21:39
newz2000I've seen two kinds of feature tours21:40
risbacslideshows look nice, but who is really looking at them on this kind of page?21:40
newz2000slide show is one, then there's the kind that show you a huge row of thumbnails through the boot up process to launching aps21:40
newz2000The prob with slide shows is you can't easily get to the feature you're interested in21:40
risbacwe could just show ONE cap per feature, then if you click, you have a nice ajaxed galery21:41
newz2000the prob with the row of thumbnails is that you can't make sense of the small thumbs and who wants to look at 20 images of the boot up process21:41
newz2000yes, something like that would be good21:41
vbabiythis is why I think that the ui should allow click on descriptions and display screen shots21:41
ubrisyeah, the web can't be made linear21:41
risbacso clicking would some equivalent to "show me more plz"21:41
newz2000ubris: good discription of the problem... linearity is the problem of both the slideshow and the thumb strip21:41
newz2000its nice to be able to pick what you want to view21:42
newz2000so this project needs a driver... someone who will take ownership of it, including soliciting and incorporating the help from others21:42
newz2000I will help the driver but I'd love to someone besides me be the driver21:42
ryanakcaand if I can pitch in a word or two, willing to help us with something similar for Kubuntu :)21:42
risbacoh a Kubuntu user! :)21:43
newz2000we don't have to choose right now, but I sthere anyone who came to the meeting hoping to take on the job?21:43
newz2000ryanakca is the kubuntu webmaster21:43
vbabiythat brings up a good question are we going to create one for all21:43
* ryanakca will fire off an email to the kubuntu-devel ML after, I want to see the outcome of this meeting :)21:43
ymanBTW, anyone notice that the following screenshot has a glitch:21:43
newz2000interesting find21:43
vbabiythat is hard to notice21:44
ymanI saw it right away but forgot to file a bug report.21:44
newz2000ok, one more chance, anyone here wanting to take the role as driver? If not, I'll post it to the list for decission this week.21:45
vbabiyI don't mind taken this position if there is no one else, but I would really like to get help from every one.21:45
newz2000vbabiy: if you want I can post it to the list so that you can ponder it a little more before commiting21:45
newz2000this is one of the bigger projects21:45
vbabiyyeah that works21:45
vbabiyI just want it to turn out that the driver had to do all th work21:45
vbabiywith a project this size21:45
newz2000yes, I will try to help ensure that doesn't happen.21:46
pepit is his role to delegate21:46
pepwell one of them :)21:46
newz2000it's challenging, which is why it's taken me so long to start this team. :-)21:46
vbabiyYeah this is true, delegating is not always the easiest thing to do in OSS21:46
newz2000ok, lets move on to the next item21:47
newz2000intrepid Start page21:47
newz2000so this is a very delicate issue, let me outline what it is first21:47
newz2000when a user installs ubuntu, their browser homepage is currently set to http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/21:47
newz2000it is a localized page, meaning that it will show up at least partially translated into their native language21:47
newz2000this localized content is created by the doc team21:48
newz2000you'll see a prominent google search box21:48
newz2000this uses a google service that provides revenue for future ubuntu development21:49
newz2000so in otherwords, the search box brings in revenue21:49
ymanIt's ugly21:49
newz2000therefore one goal is to make it easy to use21:49
ubrisand you would love it if users find this all handy enough to keep as their homepage?21:49
ymanThe results page has to be themed21:49
risbacwhat is the goal exactly? the user should keep this page as his homepage?21:49
newz2000we would, but for more reasons21:49
newz2000another goal of this page is to communicate with users21:49
newz2000I don't know if anyone here remembers the serous problem with X that came out about 18 months ago21:50
newz2000users who performed an update lost access to their desktop21:50
newz2000it was a serious problem21:50
* ryanakca smiles21:50
vbabiyI think if its simple people will keep it, like firefox default homepage21:50
vbabiythey make millions off that21:50
risbacif it's useful!21:50
newz2000we want to be able to continue to communicate with users if we need to21:50
risbacsimple is good, but not good enough i think21:50
newz2000vbabiy: yes, you're right, but another option is to make it interesting21:51
risbacnews about ubuntu seems to be mandatory21:51
ubrisso it needs to work well locally, and also have remote components?21:51
Volansrisbac: I have made the same question on the goal of the page in the list, see ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2008-July/000231.html )21:51
risbacyes, now we know it should be kept by users21:51
ryanakcarandom question that'll probably never need to be considered, how will we be able to communicate with that user through the page if X is broken... most people don't know about lynx & company21:51
vbabiythen thing if there is to much the load time of the page will make people change there home page to something like about:blank21:51
risbacbefore they reboot ryanakca? :)21:51
ymanI think if the goal is that users keep using it as their home page, it should bombard them with a little less information and be more spaced out.21:52
newz2000so Volans has asked some good questions, let me answer them here21:52
risbacwe can make it load dynamic content through ajax, so fast display for most of it, and the dynamic content arrives just after?21:52
newz2000I'd love to have something like that21:52
risbacdo we have an influence on the content Matt ? (damn, I always ask the same question...)21:53
newz2000risbac: yes21:53
newz2000we will work with the docteam21:53
vbabiybut most people to stick around the home page for that long21:53
risbacyman is right, the content is NOT appealing!21:53
newz2000it is not interesting after your second time viewing it I think21:53
risbactoo many sentences... too heavy21:53
risbac"welcome to ubuntu"? you want to see this one ONCE! :)21:53
pepand it only allows basic search of google, not images nor anything else21:53
newz2000regarding google, I'm discussing with them other options21:54
risbacso we have 2 missions: interesting content, sexy look?21:54
ubrisso ideas for compelling features?21:54
newz2000risbac: yes.21:54
vbabiyalso not have the search to default to googl.co.uk21:54
risbaceasy access to help21:54
newz2000or at least not annoying21:54
ymanI'd say it should make content easy to access, but display near to nothing by default.21:54
newz2000prominent search21:54
pepplus: from a design point-of-view, there should be way more space around the search box, should be more centered and intuitive to use imo...21:54
risbacheader is too big21:55
newz2000pep: yes, you're right exactly21:55
risbacwe have to define the content first... what would make us keep this page?21:55
newz2000and here's one big important concept to remember, and this is hard - this page is available around the world in dozens of languages and cultures21:55
VolansI think that a static or semi dynamic page NOT customizable by the user can't be the user homepage, no matter how sexy and appealing it is21:55
risbacyou mean something like iGoogle Volans? let's hire ;)21:56
pepHow about doing it the other way around? using an ubuntu-ized google page instead of an own page with a google search box?21:56
Volansexactly risbac, but I think that this is NOT the goal of that page21:56
risbacthe goal is to make the user stay? :)21:56
ryanakcaimho, if I were a new user, the only thing I would care about seeing is the logo, the search box, nice and big, and then underneath it, Search Web    Search Ubuntu Documentation21:56
ymanDidn't Google creat some FOSS implementation of Google Gadgets?21:56
risbac"Get Help"21:57
newz2000google gadgets are easy to use, but allowing the user to change them and have it be remembered is tricky21:57
VolansIMHO the goal is to give the new ubuntu user all the useful resources where he can find help to use better Ubuntu21:57
ubriswhat are restrictions of acceptable licenses for third-party libraries?21:57
risbacand news about Ubuntu, I think it's important21:57
VolansI have upload a proposal in the wiki page today, next the Lizzeh proposal21:57
newz2000ubris: can you give an example?21:57
ubriswell, does Google Gears have unacceptable usage terms?21:58
newz2000hmm. Probably not going to work since its not installed by default21:58
newz2000it needs to work for users with a default ubuntu install21:59
Volansjust to see it if you want ;) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage21:59
newz2000if we err, I'd prefer to err on the side of helping new users rather than catering to power users21:59
risbacyour proposal is nice Volans, i would just add some dynamic content21:59
newz2000another problem with gadgets is that it's hard to find a selection that is meaningful to users around the globe21:59
risbacand to integrate gadgets is really more complicated, maybe we can keep it for 9.04 or later?22:00
newz2000that may be a good plan22:00
Volansnewz2000: a "static" collection of gadget will never be better than a fully customized homepage, I think is not our goal to create such an homepage22:00
risbacit's hard to compete with Google, maybe we should really focus on our own strengths22:00
pepwe're not competing we're working with them22:01
risbac"be in a competition with"?22:01
newz2000risbac: right. In this way I'd like to err towards helping new ubuntu users22:01
pepwe are not I think :)22:01
risbacbut now we are talking more or less about an alternative to IGoogle?22:01
newz2000I assumed he meant, "they have a choice between us and iGoogle"22:01
risbacif it looks like Igoogle, but not as good, they will just not use it22:02
newz2000I think power users probably already have a favorite and I'm not sure our community can compete with the many excellent choices out there.22:02
newz2000I don't think we can be everything to everyone22:02
newz2000so lets focus on our strengths22:02
newz2000and that is providing a great ubuntu desktop to all users22:02
risbacsimple is better, help, community, news, less is better22:02
newz2000the start page is available in launchpad. There's a simple (bug ugly) build script that generates the output from the translated text provided by the doc team22:03
Volanswe can add on the right a vertical box with some useful news22:03
risbacbut do we REALLY have useful news? and localized?22:04
risbacthe ubuntu homepage news look like dead22:04
newz2000risbac: duly noted22:04
VolansI don't know, is why I don't have put it in my proposal22:04
risbacit's more for the press than for users!22:04
mptThere are currently 261 words on the start page22:04
risbacwhat I like from the ubuntu planet blog is the useful tips from... I don't remember. This is more or less what I would like to see there, maybe simplified22:05
mptI suggest halving that, at least :-)22:05
newz2000risbac: we need to be careful about thinking what we want. We're probably not our target user.22:05
pepI think the best is to keep a complete web search solution (so google), as well as search of the documentation in your language...22:05
risbactrue, that's why i say we need something less tehcnical :)22:05
pepand links to the main ubuntu sites22:06
newz2000ok, so the driver for this project has to be a very tenacious22:06
peplike brainstorm and planet and so on22:06
ymanQuestion: do users on the long run use their homepage to learn about their OS?22:06
risbacChrister Edwards blog, that's the idea, but NOT for advanced user. It really helps discovering plenty of cool features22:06
newz2000We may need to have another meeting just about the start page before we can choose a driver22:07
newz2000here are some questions I have..22:07
ryanakcarisbac: haven't really been paying attention, but something like KDE's tip of the day (window that opens when you open any KDE app) ?22:07
newz2000can we publish "work in progress" start pages to 8.10 so we can get preliminary feedback?22:07
newz2000(no one here can answer that btw)22:07
risbactip of the day, exactly22:07
ubrislike tip of the day22:07
risbacthere are SO MANY features people don't even know about!22:08
ubrisapp of the day?22:08
risbacthose can make a difference, I really think they can22:08
risbacfor instance too ubris!22:08
Volansnewz2000: what do you mean?22:08
newz2000good comments22:08
pepthat's good22:08
ubrisevery day feature a new app22:08
ryanakcaIs anybody here doing the minutes?22:08
risbacnew app or new tip22:08
newz2000Volans: there is an alpha due out Thursday, too soon for an update, but I wonder if for alpha 4 we could have our work in progress page posted22:08
risbacbut will be hard to localize this... if not impossible22:09
Volanssure, but we have do decide before the right way22:09
Volansrisbac: for the localization there are the doc teams ;)22:09
ymanApp of the day would be a whole article, and really I don't think it will work out all that well. App of the week is more realistic IMO22:10
newz2000yman: yes, probably22:10
risbacbut about tips and applications, who will publish them?22:10
Volansand if we use a simpler page then the actual one probably all the terms are already translated22:10
pepthat's the biggest problem imo risbac22:10
mptiirc Debian has a "package of the day" and frequent problems finding contributors to describe them22:10
newz2000risbac: well, uwn is translated weekly22:10
risbacmaybe it's acceptable to have this part in english?22:10
ubriswhole article - but can use a teaser thumbnail or text hyperlinking22:10
risbacok so maybe we have some content then22:10
mptHowever, most of those would not make sense to a large chunk of Ubuntu users22:11
risbacanother meeting is clearly needed to define at least the content :)22:11
ymanAbout app of the whatever, it might be worth thinking of integrating it with Add/Remove applications and the feature tour.22:11
risbacevery single ubuntu user will see this page... so we'd better not fail ;)22:12
newz2000risbac: yes22:12
risbacUbuntu has no "one click install" like Opensuse?22:12
risbacapturl ?22:12
vbabiyyeah the start page I think has the most  value22:12
risbacwould be neat: you discover the application, you click to install, 10 seconds...22:12
newz2000too ambitious for October, but a nice idea22:13
vbabiywell you can use a special url and it will install it for you in ubuntu22:13
risbacyes, at least we can write it in the list of improvements...22:13
ubrisenabling app install to be launched from browser must be fraught with issues, right?22:13
risbacso it exists Vbabiy?22:13
vbabiyrisbac: yeah, I have seen people do it22:13
risbacOpensuse does it, do they have problems?22:13
risbacas long as it does NOT add a repo?22:14
risbacwe are talking about running apt from the browser, right?22:14
risbacso it's not less or more secured than apt :)22:14
ymannot really. it just installs it from the existing repository. security issues are more likely if it could be used with 3rd party repositories. I actually with it did.22:14
newz2000ok, lets officially wrap up the meeting, though discussion can continue22:15
newz2000so in summary, no driver is needed for countdowns22:15
newz2000please, everyone interested submit ideas22:15
risbacI like this from Opensuse... u read the page, u like what you see, you click, it's here in 10 seconds! that's just taking advantage of the repos, it's a good promotion for the OS22:15
risbacoups, sorry22:15
risbactoo late22:15
newz2000for the feature tour, we'll move discussion on to the list and choose a driver by the end of the week22:16
newz2000for the start page we need to discuss on the list then have another meeting to decide what features22:16
newz2000are included22:16
vbabiyrisbac: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/07/08/improve-application-startup-times-with-preload/22:16
vbabiytake a look at the link22:16
newz2000let's call it a wrap, but any futher discussions can be included in the minutes as appropriate22:16
newz2000thanks for participating.22:16
newz2000----------------------- MEETING END ---------------------22:16
newz2000carry on discussion now. :-)22:17
risbacThnks Vbabiy22:17
vbabiyThat went well22:17
newz2000except for the part where I got kicked off. :-)22:17
newz2000that will go down in infamy22:17
risbacapt and how applications are installed in Ubuntu is a wonderful selling point, and it's not advertised anywhere. i think it's a real pity22:17
vbabiynewz2000: how often are we going to have these22:17
Volansrisbac: for the feature tour?22:18
newz2000good question, I guess as needed22:18
ubrisI think it's a selling point, too - no licensing crud to deal with22:18
risbacyes also, but the content is out of our hands, right?22:18
newz2000vbabiy: probably want to varry the times a bit to get full participation22:18
ymanPeople forget even the most significant events in history. Take heart, for you insignificance is such that non will remember your shame.22:18
vbabiynewz2000: yeah thats a good point22:18
vbabiybut have them quite often is also good it builds bigger bonds to the group22:19
newz2000yman: its good to be reminded of that every so often22:19
newz2000vbabiy: good suggestion22:19
risbacand it's very different from Windows, people are a bit confused, so we should explain it to make it appear like a BIG strength instead of "it's not working like in windows, I don't understand"22:19
vbabiygets everyone excited about these project all over again22:19
newz2000I'll start writing up minutes for the list22:20
vbabiyrisbac: one place where this could be very useful, is have a little application that runs the first time you log in that ask if you would like to take a tour through Ubuntu22:20
Volansthe fact that you can install quite all the applications trough one package manager and update all of them togheter in a centralized manner is a very big imporvement relative to the windows world and also in part relative to the mac world22:21
ymanI really think that it should be possible to allow updating only certain very specific packages in the repository. Then it will be possible to install packages from 3rd party repositories without getting updates for stuff that exists in fully-trusted repositories.22:21
vbabiyI don't know if this is the correct group for that project but I think it could really help22:21
risbacand it should be in the feature tour on the website to me! it's fundamental, that's one of the main difference with windows22:21
risbacI agree... you can easily list all the advantages of this installation process.... And they are numerous22:21
newz2000food for thought, Novel provides a monthly newsletter that always includes at least one nice tip for improving productivity when using sled22:22
vbabiyrisbac: yeah that is a key feature for the feature tour22:22
risbacI see ubuntu users going online to download sources of softwares and complaining about the difficulty! they don't KNOW about synaptic, it's a shame, really...22:22
risbacthey try to compile! that's insane!22:22
vbabiyyeah, specially if they are new to linux22:23
risbacand it makes them have a wrong opinion on the OS... from the beginning! it's really bad22:23
risbacit's so normal for us that we don't think about promoting it22:24
mase_desktopmorn all22:24
mase_desktoptoo late for teh meeting ?22:24
newz2000hi mase_desktop22:24
risbacahah just finished!22:24
newz2000you're catching the follow up discussion22:24
mase_desktopreally, damn22:24
newz2000mase_desktop: were you hoping to be the driver for one of the projects?22:25
ymanthen if apturl supported installation from 3rd party repositories then something simple like apt://ymans-brain@ymans-body.com could be used to install a single application from a 3rd party repository, that will get updates without having to enable the entire repository.22:25
mase_desktopmust have calcutated wrong22:25
risbacI'm not sure 3d party repos are even needed ! :)22:25
risbacbut that's a good idea, that could be usefull22:25
mase_desktopnewz2000: no, not that artistic :) just wanted to actually attend22:25
risbacit's not only artistic :)22:26
risbacI would not be there otherwise ;)22:26
* mase_desktop wonders where he went wrong with his time calculations22:26
newz2000we should add a new project for coordinating team meetings22:26
newz2000with a built in countdown... "meeting in X min..."22:26
ymanSometimes they are, like the unofficial getdeb repo, or medibuntu.22:26
risbactrue yman...22:26
pep+1 newz200022:26
newz2000mase_desktop: you mised it, I got kicked off the channel right at the beginning of the meeting. :-)22:27
risbacahah that's all you want him to remember about the meeting?? :)22:27
mase_desktopi bet that helps alot22:27
risbache was flooding us!22:27
risbache deserved it! :)22:27
mase_desktopso is there a log somewhere ?22:27
risbacmatt is on it now22:27
Volansmase_desktop: use date -u to see the UTC time for you ;)22:27
risbacwhile we keep complaining about the current pages :)22:27
Volans/for you//22:28
newz2000http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/07/22/%23ubuntu-website.html but not up to dat eyet22:28
mase_desktopVolans: nah i had kde display utc for me22:28
mase_desktopit was me that messed up22:28
mase_desktopnot my machine22:28
Volansahahah LOL, I have installed the gnome international clock only for that team :)22:28
newz2000I have a google app engine account, maybe this would be a fun experimental project22:28
Volansbut it don't have all the right places22:28
risbacnewz2000: you mean for startpage?22:29
newz2000no for meeting scheduler22:29
risbacoh ok22:29
risbachow about a simple ical?22:29
newz2000needs to have a countdown22:29
ymanQuestion: will each official Ubuntu derivative have it's own start page?22:29
risbacyou add it to your Evolution/GoogleCal/whatever?22:29
newz2000yman: no, probably not22:29
ymannot even the same one with a unique theme?22:30
risbacput them on a google calendar, and people can subscribe to it, with the reminders and all the cool stuffs from their agenda22:30
newz2000no variance22:30
vbabiyokay guys I got to run, it was nice talk to everyone and hope to talk again soon.22:30
newz2000yman: all firefox users22:30
risbacbye vbabiy!22:30
newz2000bye vbabiy, thanks for coming22:30
newz2000yman: konq and other browsers users don't see it22:30
ymanWhy not?22:31
* mase_desktop is on konq22:31
Volansbye vbabiy22:31
newz2000its set by the ubufox extension22:31
ymanSo all the web customization stuff on the client side only expresses itself through the FF extension?22:32
pepwell we can't alter FF :)22:32
newz2000yman: yes, basically (as I understand it)22:32
pepas in FF itself :)22:32
ymanWhat does Konq display by default, then?22:32
pepa KDE home page type thing22:32
pepbecause it is a file browser too22:33
risbacMatt, there is no ical calendar published for Ubuntu anywhere?22:33
ymanOh. I forgot about that.22:33
newz2000risbac: I don't know, maybe evolution22:33
newz2000I'll bet there is22:34
risbacno no, I mean a calendar everybody can subscribe to?22:34
ymanBut by Intrepid KDE4.1 should be the default, right?22:34
Volansnewz2000: we can use the meeting as test for the countdown banner ;)22:34
newz2000I don't know what tools are available for this, I just know this is a bit of a hassle22:34
Volansusing the countdown banner as a countdown for the next meeting :)22:34
ymanAnd there Konq is, methinks, mainly meant as a browser.22:34
mase_desktopKonq will be used as is for kde 4, ie it retains all functionality , but there is dolphin specifically for the filemanager use case22:36
ryanakcanewz2000: btw, our download page has scrolling if viewed in konqueror22:36
newz2000ryanakca: how much?22:36
jmsearcyok guys, I'm out22:36
ryanakcanewz2000: enough to chop off the alternate download box22:36
ymanSee ya22:36
risbacnewz2000: you don't have a calendar online with all the ubuntu main events ? (like release dates, UDS, etc...)22:36
Volansryanakca: depends on the screen resolution22:36
Volansrisbac: the Frisge22:37
stgraberrisbac: we have http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule and the fridge22:37
risbacI mean a standard format? :) is it Ical on the fridge?22:37
risbacsomething you can have in your agenda22:37
newz2000ryanakca: I wonder if it would be better to use a font-based unit of measurement for that height22:37
Volansrisbac: the fridge is moving to google calendar as I know22:37
risbaci see it at the bottom!22:37
newz200012ems or whatever22:37
risbacnewz2000: why can't we have a calendar like this? It can manage time differences i think, this way everybody would have the right time in his software22:38
ryanakcanewz2000: *shrug*, possibly. But then, couldn't it outgrow the box we stick the iframe in?22:38
newz2000no, the box will grow22:38
newz2000ryanakca: konq 3 or 4?22:39
ryanakcanewz2000: ok, might work, Konq 422:39
mase_desktopso is there a list of projects from the meetings, who is doing stuff for them etc..22:39
risbacthe fridge has an ical link at the bottom. it doesn't matter where it's hosted, as long as it's a standard format22:39
newz2000mase_desktop: the images anyone can do, the feature tour we'll decide this week, the start page needs another meeting22:39
newz2000and largely speaking, a successful driver will be one who can coordinate the efforts of several others, so if you like a project, feel free to volunteer for it22:40
mase_desktopnewz2000: so nothing really code / system centric ?22:40
mase_desktopical thing works great with korganizer22:41
risbacical things work great with most softwares :)22:41
newz2000mase_desktop: I'm not sure I understand the question22:41
mase_desktopnewz2000: is there likely to be anything that requires programming at this stage or is it maily html / graphics ?22:42
newz2000the feature tour will be ajaxy seems to be the consensus22:43
newz2000so I expect a good bit of code to do that22:43
newz2000it will also be a technical challenge to make it glitzy for users with js turned on and accessible for users without22:43
mase_desktopthat will be nice. as i turn javascript off by default myself :)22:45
ubriswithout knowing exact details, some libraries abstract all this away for you pretty well I'm told22:45
mase_desktopi like when sites don't 'require' javascript22:45
ubrisme too22:45
ubrisor rather I loathe it when they do :~)22:45
mase_desktopdoes anyone know a good library that works when the content type is application/xml+xhtml ?22:46
mase_desktopnot just tag soup22:46
newz2000ryanakca: so is the download page really targetted at users already using konq? :-)22:47
mase_desktopnewz2000: which page is this ? http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download doesn't scroll for me22:48
mase_desktopwith kde 3.5.922:48
newz2000mase_desktop: kubuntu.org22:48
newz2000ryanakca: I get a plain white page for http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download22:48
newz2000no content22:48
ryanakcanewz2000: well, we're Kubuntu, we target ourselves to KDE users :)22:49
mase_desktopthe download link on the front page doesn't even work for me22:49
ryanakcanewz2000: strange, just a sec22:49
mase_desktopthe button anyway22:49
mase_desktopthe "free download' unless thats not meant as  a link22:49
Volansthe top banner is too big22:49
mase_desktophttp://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu that doesn't horizontally scroll for me22:50
ryanakcanewz2000: takes a while to connect to www.ubuntu.com22:50
mase_desktopand the window size is less that 80022:50
ryanakcaVolans: subscribed to kubuntu-devel?22:50
pepI might have missed it, but who is driver for the startpage?22:50
newz2000pep: we're going to have another meeting to clarify the goals for that one22:51
Volansryanakca: no22:51
pepand the revenue we get from google, is it a lot?22:51
newz2000when I view source with konq it opens the page in openoffice22:51
newz2000pep: I don't know actually22:51
pepto know how much this should weigh in my equation22:51
pepwe should know22:52
ryanakcaVolans: If you feel like subscribing, I'll be firing off an email soon, your input would be interesting22:52
Volansnewz2000: what do you think about custom google search for the start page?22:52
pepif we want to keep the user at every price to use its search or if we can derive a bit..22:52
newz2000Volans: can you elaborate (it means several things to me)22:52
newz2000pep: not keep the user at every cost22:53
newz2000Power users probably already have a favorite22:53
Volansnewz2000: read the comment on my proposal in the IntrepidStartPage wiki page22:53
Volansryanakca: I'm a gnome user, I have only see the http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download and http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download pages and see the differences, I think that the big top banner is mostly empty and too high22:54
newz2000Volans: I'm not sure. I like the idea of customizing it for each locale, but when I talked to Google they said I had to choose US or UK22:54
Volansnewz2000: I don't mean the google server... I mean a real customized google search22:55
Volanslet me find the link22:55
pepwe could simply use the site:http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org in the search (example for french)22:55
ryanakcaVolans: that top banner is going to go, or at least be changed22:55
pepbut that's kind of not nice22:55
pep(actually forget that :-)22:56
newz2000mase_desktop: were you the one who investigated the build script for the start page?22:56
pepI think the words "welcome" are good the first time you open it up, but after that they loose their sense...22:57
pepbut that was already said22:57
mase_desktopnewz2000: no that wasn't me.22:57
Volansnewz2000: I have made this one yesterday: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=008949059787096431823:nzsphralfw4 it search in all the resources of the Italian ubuntu community and you can search only in the doc, wiki, forum and website at your choice22:57
Volansthe search form can be put in every site22:57
newz2000ok, cse22:57
newz2000the problem with that is it searches a limited subset of content, for example, just ubuntu.com22:58
newz2000and that's going to quickly irritate users22:58
newz2000we want them to search for everything22:58
Volansand for the resuts there are 3 possibilities: a google hosted page, like normal google, a self hosted page with simple output; a fully customizable page with google's API22:58
mase_desktopnewz2000: i was talking to you about the navigation22:58
mase_desktopbut i don't think thats what your talking about22:58
newz2000ok. Trying to think of coding work available. The build script is a mess. :-/22:59
Volansnewz2000: I think that with the api we can put behind the radioboxes to esearch in the web, the english ubuntu world and the localized ubuntu world22:59
pepA solution would be one search fiel with several buttons "search web" "search ubuntu documentations" "search ubuntu related forums"22:59
Volansbut I will investigate for that22:59
mase_desktopnewz2000: i am more than happy to help out if someone hasn't already stepped up22:59
newz2000mase_desktop: do you like unicode?22:59
newz2000mwa ha ha ha23:00
* newz2000 tries at an evil laugh23:00
Volanspep, newz2000, or simply we can put multiple forms for different search and show one at a time with a sort of tabs at the top or a similar radiobox23:00
mase_desktopnewz2000: yeh actually just been doing a whole bunch of internationalizations23:00
mase_desktopso i don't mind23:00
newz2000you should check out the build script for the current start page23:00
mase_desktopwhere is this located, launchpad /23:00
pepshouldn't get too complicated whatever we do...23:00
newz2000mase_desktop: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~newz/ubuntu-website/start-page23:01
newz2000mase_desktop: I hope you can see from the code that I attempted to do the right thing and out of frustration and time crunch had to resort to ickyness23:01
newz2000I even hounded the developer of BeautifulSoup (who happens to be a canonical employee) without success23:02
mase_desktopheh i think everyone has been in that situation before23:02
newz2000I think it may be that one of the documents is not unicode and we may need to file a bug against it23:02
newz2000but I think you'll be struck by the though, "there must be a better way to do this..."23:03
mase_desktopnewz2000: so this build script makes the ubuntu homepage in different languages ?23:03
newz2000yes, correct23:03
mase_desktopok, no worries23:04
newz2000you run it from the project dir as ./locailze.py23:04
Volansnewz2000: see some example of Google custom search with the API here http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxsearch/samples.html#_the-basics_23:04
mase_desktopso your using beautiful soup as the util to convert from one charset to the other ?23:04
newz2000Volans: launchpad also uses it for its search23:04
newz2000so there's no ads in the cse using the api?23:05
mase_desktopnewz2000: you mind if i do this in xslt ?23:05
newz2000no, I don't mind at all23:06
VolansI think with the API in the overlay mode no, with the iframe and google hosted page yes23:06
VolansUbuntu is a no-profit organization?23:06
newz2000hmm. Good question.23:06
Volansbecause in this case you can tell google to not show the ads23:06
Volansno money but also no ads for the users23:07
pepgoogle can be talked with23:07
newz2000we want the ads23:07
pepI mean this is ubuntu :) we can discuss with thel23:07
newz2000yes, I've been on the phone many times with them23:07
newz2000Interestingly enough, when you talk to them about this feature you don't get to mountain view, you get to new york and the caller id says doubleclick23:08
pepI didn't understand that23:09
pepyou don't get to mountain view?  the caller id says doubleclick?23:09
newz2000if you talk to Google about ads and cse you don't talk to the google guys in Mountain View CA, you instead talk to guys from "doubleclick" in New York.23:10
pepOh right!23:11
pepi see23:11
stgrabernewz2000: Doubleclick is © 2008 Google Inc. All Rights Reserved. So that actually makes sense23:11
pepnewz2000: I suppose you know this? http://consortiumlibrary.org/staff/gibbs/images/aussie_windaz1.jpg :)23:12
pepit matches your nick perfectly, even the right number ;)23:12
pepOk, it's for australia, but still :)23:13
newz2000first I've seen it. Nice stuff.23:13
pepgoogle has acquired doubleclick23:14
twilightthanks for the good meeting guys, I've to go :) 'night all23:18
mase_desktopnewz2000: i'll have this build script working for tonight, tomorrow at the latest.23:31
mase_desktopnewz2000: gotta go to work now23:32
newz2000ok, have a nice day mase_desktop23:32
newz2000thanks for your help23:32
mase_desktopnp, glad i can do something23:32

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!