[13:30] hey newz2000 mind if i pm you ? [14:30] mase_slapt: no need to ask. ;-) [15:44] newz2000: Hi, perhaps have you planned to reply to the list's mail I have sent with the question about the start page topic? [15:46] by the way, we're porting the ubuntu08 shiît theme to drupal 6.... [15:46] (hi all) [15:46] http://www.lown.de/drupal-6.2/ [15:47] the guy's trying to do it real clean so that it can be re-used [15:47] (in case anyone uses a 6.x website :-)µ [15:49] good news pep, are you using the theme developed by the US Locoteam you mentioned some days ago? [15:49] no [15:50] it is for drupal 5 and the menu on the right is not drupal compatible, they're hard-coded links... [15:50] http://nj.ubuntu-us.org/ [15:50] not like the shipit site [15:50] so my friend Houbsi took the original shipit css and worked from there, but it's not finished yet [15:52] oh great [15:52] yeah I'll stay in touch [15:54] pep: good news, please do share it [15:54] I will :) [15:54] Volans: I will re-read it and be prepared to discuss it for the meeting today [15:54] the startpage is something I defintely want to discuss [15:55] oh and he asked me how this was with the credits on the bottom of the page and the license for the theme... because there is a "© 2008 Canonical Ltd" [15:55] ok, I asked because I have made a mockup example and I thinked that is better to public it after the clarification of the Start Page goal [15:56] pep: see here: http://www.ubuntu.com/legal [15:56] pep: please change that to match your communitie's need [15:56] just observe the trademark policy with respect to the logo and name usage [15:56] Volans: feel free to share your mockup if you're comfortable doing so. It can only aid in discussion, not hinder [15:57] I'll try to understand that :) [15:57] newz2000: ok :) I will put it on the wiki page soon [15:57] pep: this is a better link: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy [15:58] Ok, I suppose I have "the relevant rights and permissions from the copyright holder" :) [15:58] thanks newz2000 [16:04] Ok, my questions re answered concerning trademark... Now there was another thing... he asked me if he could put on the template that it had been ported to drupal 6.x by him.. I said ihe could technically, but that wasn't really the way things are done in our community, as you'd end up with hundreds of credits everywhere over the time... now was I right saying that? [16:04] it's like crediting inside the code if you add something imo [16:05] I straddle the fence on this one. I know that giving credit publicly greatly helps motivate people and I suggest doing this, however putting it on the bottom of the template probably isn't correct. [16:05] You may want to create a "credits" page and list major contributors there [16:06] exactly [16:06] Hey how are you all doing? [16:06] I thin k exactly like you, and I think this might come because we are involved in Ubuntu and know the open source way pretty well... but he had some difficulties understanding that.. [16:06] fine vbabiy thank you :) [16:07] Looking forward to the meeting :) [18:02] Meeting in an hour? [18:03] ryanakca: no, 20 UTC ;) [18:03] 3 hour [18:04] newz2000: just added my proposal to the Start Page wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage ;) [18:04] * ryanakca nods and grumbles at poor time convertion skills [18:04] :) [18:04] * ryanakca wonders if that's the correct spelling of convertion [18:04] conversion [18:05] * ryanakca nods, thanks [18:05] ryanakca: where are you from? [18:05] ryanakca: 'date -u' [18:06] oh, that's a nice trick [18:06] Volans: Kingston, Ontario :) [18:06] (I guess I should specify than Ontario is a canadian province) [18:07] too distant from GMT for a quick conversion... :) [18:07] hey [18:07] * nand just come back from holidays [18:07] Hi nand [18:08] 'lo nand [18:08] newz2000: anything came up with the navigation, and specifically with the intersite nav? [18:08] sorry I didn't read all the mails yet :) [18:08] howdy [18:08] no, I've got a lengthy email to gerry in the works [18:08] half the year it's -5, others it's -4, I get mixed up between the two. It would be easier if everybody just used UTC and people wrapped their head around the possibility that the sun could rise at 1300 and set at 0100 :) [18:09] nand: so no change yet [18:09] I hope to get internal discussion started this week though [18:09] ryanakca: I will prefer so much if only DST will be used for the whole year [18:10] nand: mpt is the person behind launchpad's ui and is also very interested in this subject too. [18:10] good luch Matt ;) [18:10] luck (oupssss) [18:10] Hello hello [18:10] okay. since we gonna again change the top navigation for QA related website plus brainstorm, I'm interested too :) [18:11] sorry guys but now I have to go, see you later for the meeting :) [18:11] nand: interestingly enough, mpt reminded me that this problem existed (slightly differently) in the previous revision of the website with the bouncing tabs [18:11] hey there [18:12] making it one of our longest standing website annoyances [18:12] howdy stgraber [18:12] stgraber <= he's working on the QA sites [18:12] * mpt wonders if newz2000 has any experience with making IE tolerate negative margins :-) [18:12] mpt: I've used negative margins..., are you doing header image replacement? [18:13] oh, that's negative indent [18:13] newz2000, no, just aligning headings to the left of the rest of the section [18:13] mpt: the first time I did it was when I used this layout here: http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/skidoo_too/ [18:13] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu [18:13] it uses negative margins for the left column [18:14] Works fine in FF2, FF3, Opera, Midori, and IE for the first couple of seconds. Starts sucking in IE a couple of seconds after the page loads. [18:18] mpt: wow, that's an interesting problem [18:19] an interesting problem? :) You are very optimistic, i would say a huge waste of time because of Microsoft :) [18:19] Also works after resizing the IE window :-) [18:19] wow [18:20] mpt: if instead of -212px you use -211 does it work better? [18:20] * newz2000 wishes for ie firebug [18:21] Matt, did you try the developer toolbar for IE? it's nothing close to firebug or webdeveloper under FF, but it helps [18:21] I'm digging way back but seem to remember something about the negative indent having a prob if it matched the margin [18:21] risbac: I thought it died with IE 5.5 [18:21] * newz2000 googles [18:22] this one: http://www.microsoft.com/downloadS/details.aspx?familyid=E59C3964-672D-4511-BB3E-2D5E1DB91038&displaylang=en [18:22] newz2000, nope [18:30] * mpt blinks [18:30] I think I've fixed it [18:44] * Volans back [19:49] The meeting is in a hour right? === pep` is now known as pep [19:50] vbabiy: correct, in an hour and 10 minutes [19:50] Cool [19:50] see you then [19:51] I think the process of coordinating meetings could improve [19:51] Even though I know what time it is there's this fear of, "did I do mymath wrong?" [19:51] and really, this mess of dealing with repetitive math is what computers excel at [19:55] :) [19:55] That would be an idea... [19:55] a website dedicated to coordination. [19:55] with all meetings (logs, agendas, minutes, etc...) [19:56] the fridge? :) [19:56] but improved [19:56] yes [19:56] yes, but ideally, it would say, "the meeting starts in 1 hour" [19:56] imprved [19:56] exactly, and give the time in UTC as well as your current time [19:56] so that we don't have to worry about timezones [19:56] in #ubuntu-meeting you can ask the bot for that [19:56] I mean we are capable of doing it xD [19:57] nand: but it would be better to optimize the source imo [19:57] nand: its probably not appropriate while a meeting is in progress though [19:57] that is the fridge for now [19:57] indeed. [20:52] newz2000: meeting in 8 minutes? [20:52] * newz2000 is ready [20:52] * vbabiy is standing by :) [20:53] hello there [20:53] hello twilight [20:54] hello every one [20:56] 4 minutes? I still didn't have my dinner :) [20:57] risbac: be very quickly or push back the dinner of one hour ;) [20:57] I'm pushing it back! One is sleepy with a too full stomach ;) [20:57] I'm aiming for 40m btw with any remaining time being less formal discussion [20:58] newz2000: checked the ubuntulog bot? [20:58] appears to be working fine [20:58] we have no way of marking the log file though, except with some visual indicator [20:59] you can cat the log file after and put only the meeting part in another file somewhere [20:59] -------------------------------------------------8<------------------------------------------------- [20:59] s/cat/cut/ [20:59] yes, that will work fine [21:00] or we can summarize it as minutes [21:00] but as I see it, we should be about ready to start [21:00] ----------------- BEGIN MEETING --------------------- [21:01] good morning/evening/afternoon everyone [21:01] I'm glad you could join us for our first meeting [21:01] My name is Matthew Nuzum, aka newz (pronounced like new zealand bout without the 'land' at the end) [21:02] I'm the ubuntu.com webmaster and a canonical employee [21:02] I'm excited to see the participation we're having in the group and hope that we can continue to make progress [21:03] My goal with our first batch of projects is for them to provide a good variety of meaningful work that will allow our group to show the world what we can do [21:03] if we succeed, and I'm sure we will, then we'll be able to move on to bigger and better things [21:03] Speaking of projects, this is the first thing on our agenda for this meeting [21:04] so I wanted to take a moment to discuss each of our tasks [21:04] on our homepage (our team's homepage) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website [21:04] you'll see the current tasks listed [21:04] they are: [21:05] IntrepidCountdownBanners [21:05] IntrepidFeatureTour [21:05] IntrepidStartPage [21:05] HardyStartPage [21:05] CommunityWebsite [21:05] CloseBugs [21:05] Let's start with the countdown banners [21:06] If you've watched the website during the last two releases you've seen a prominent banner counting down the days until release [21:06] we've also made it so that this banner can be syndicated on other sites too [21:06] for example, it's been on the fridge and many many other sites [21:06] the syndication occurs by a website owner copying and pasting a single line of html/javascript into their page [21:07] as seen here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/countdown [21:07] this javascript does a simple calculation that figures out the number of days until release and loads the correct image [21:08] I've had numerous people say, "my specialty is web graphics, how can I help?" [21:08] So as I was planning this team I felt this would be an awesome first project [21:16] as you can see on our project page, there is already progress: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners [21:16] I personally don't feel like we have to choose a single banner to syndicate [21:16] though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage [21:16] oh :) [21:16] ahahah [21:16] flooder flooder! [21:16] welcome back [21:16] maybe we should react from time to time, like "mmm" or "oh yes" [21:16] hi, what was the last thing you heard me say? [21:17] (22:16:10) newz2000: though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage [21:17] oh crud [21:17] :-( [21:17] (22:16:10) newz2000 ha abbandonato il canale (quit: Excess Flood). [21:17] what? excess flood. :-) [21:17] yeah :) [21:17] yes [21:17] yes, you are talking too much :) [21:17] nice. [21:17] let me see what you missed [21:17] * ryanakca shuffles in quietly [21:18] (to be honest I was wondering if my connection was bugging when there was this 8 minute break...) [21:18] * nand too [21:18] http://pastebin.com/d28e7c44a [21:19] wouldn't want to get booted for flooding again by pasting in whole backlog [21:19] hehe [21:19] lol. [21:19] erm [21:20] "target dimensions of 180x150, which is a standard banner ad size" [21:20] "The images should not make reference to "Intrepid Ibex" since this is a code name that will not be used once we hit beta (when the banners start to be used)" You can explain that? [21:20] I seem to recall that we had problems with the countdown not appearing for 8.04, precisely because it was a standard banner ad size [21:20] according to http://www.iab.net/iab_products_and_industry_services/1421/1443/1452 [21:20] mpt: no that was because the word "banner" was in the url [21:20] oh, ok [21:21] technical remark, since some content engines do not allow JS to be inserted (or filter it), why not use directly an with an autogenerated image? [21:21] nand: we shy from dynamic content, especially something syndicated since it will impact server availability during the crushing release-day rush [21:21] cache pbs? [21:22] nand: there can be one image done for anti-js admins, but I think that js is a good idea [21:22] the autogenerated image would use cache internally => generating the image once in a while, and storing in it cache [21:22] or just a simple symlink :) [21:22] true [21:22] too :) [21:23] symlink would probably get sysadmin approval [21:23] anyhow, I can provide the code if anyone wants it [21:23] the symlink in the image server to the right image can be very quick and smart solution IMHO [21:24] so a lot of the images that have been proposed are in the category I'd call, "plyaing it safe." [21:24] newz2000: where are these images going to be hosted? [21:24] It is a god idea.. we can push many peolpe to participate and contribute their design of the banner, and add some sort of ticker system.. it raises pride if your banner is the most used.. (what do you think?) [21:24] www.ubuntu.com's static media servers [21:24] okay [21:24] pep, I'd llike to have more involvement for sure. I'm not sure what annalysis options we'll have [21:24] new art tends to be a bit edgy, and then gets toned down for production [21:25] I'm surprised that we've not had more radical looking submissions [21:25] Personally, I like to see the edgy stuff so would love to see some new stuff show up [21:25] newz2000: I have been working on one but haven't had a chance to finish it [21:25] Mhh.. this is a little abstract.. just an idea.. but it would be something to present to an infographics class at some school... [21:26] be careful with the caching directive for the static image/symlink option or the browsers will cache the wrong one [21:26] yes, that had crossed my mind [21:26] Volans: that could be a big problem [21:26] lets focus on questions about what type of art is useful and then move on to the next agenda item [21:26] how about an image revealing the new look of 8.10 day by day? [21:26] any questions about acceptability? [21:26] risbac: good idea [21:26] I like it [21:27] this way, it's more than "just" a number [21:27] like a puzzle, good idea [21:27] it will take some coordination with the art lead and the distro team [21:27] risbac: But that all depends on when the look will be finalized . [21:27] but it would require that we have the final theme earlier ;) [21:27] yep [21:27] just an idea [21:27] risbac: it may be necessary to change the feature every four or five days [21:27] risbac: yeah I do like [21:27] if we have the theme, then why not [21:27] we can always use the hardy theme, I suspect the end theme will not differ greatly [21:28] anyway, with multiples versions, we have multiple plans B... [21:28] indeed [21:28] newz2000: but if thats the case then there won't be much surprise for the end user :) [21:28] yes, must be something intriguing, something new [21:29] I'll let you artists figure that part out. ;-) [21:29] yeah, me too, I suck in gimp ;) [21:29] I don't think we need to assign a driver for this task because everyone can lead their own idea [21:29] also there are some many screen shot tour out there that people will already have seen any new looks [21:29] speaking of which, lets move on to the feature tour [21:30] this is the next todo list item [21:30] Assuming we pull it off, it will be featured prominantly on the ubuntu homepage and will get a lot of eyeballs [21:30] http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/ currently [21:31] wow the feature just became a more important [21:31] feature tour* [21:31] yes, I'd love to see something that makes people scream wow!!! [21:32] and fall out of their chiars [21:32] is it just about the graphical part, or the content too? [21:32] lets focus on the graphical part [21:32] and the distro team can help us suggest content [21:32] I think everything has to be top notch [21:32] we will then need to deliver the content near release day [21:32] I don't think the layout has to be constrained to match ubuntu.com, though it should bare enoug resemblence that people don't wonder where they're at [21:33] but will that still be allowed if its on the homepage [21:33] I think the current tour does a good job of being harmonious with ubuntu.com but still looks markedly different [21:34] yeah I see what you mean [21:35] So the big requirement is no flash [21:35] as cool as it would be, we just can't use a technology that would be inaccessible to new ubuntu users [21:35] does JS support transition effects for images? [21:35] yes [21:35] yman: [21:35] AJAX is allowed? [21:35] yeah [21:36] ajax is definitely allowed [21:36] Ajax is good imo... [21:36] I think we can do everything we need in JS [21:36] I agree [21:36] yes [21:36] pages are a bit static, we could use ajax to hide text and show it only on click with a cool effect [21:36] I've already posted this link on our ML, what do you think of this feature tour http://www.ubuntu-it.org/index.php?page=caratteristiche ? [21:36] wait some seconds after the load of the page ;) [21:36] faster would be nice yes [21:37] so this is good for discussion but leaves me wanting a bit more [21:37] and maybe if I could read italian I'd be ok [21:37] Is it possible to make images download in the background before they are displayed? How about before the img tag even exists? [21:37] yman: yes [21:37] yman: yes [21:38] people visiting ubuntu.com will already have mootools in their browser cache [21:38] the power of JS is very under estimated by a lot of people. [21:38] mootools provides excellent effects and ajax support [21:38] the tour must also function without JS imo [21:38] ubris: good point [21:39] newz2000: ahahah, the italian content is only a translation of the english version (ubuntu.com) [21:39] ok, the navigation on the left is site navigation then [21:39] yes [21:39] first page lacks some images [21:39] the title are the equivalent of the right menu in the english version [21:39] s/title/titles/ [21:40] I've seen two kinds of feature tours [21:40] slideshows look nice, but who is really looking at them on this kind of page? [21:40] slide show is one, then there's the kind that show you a huge row of thumbnails through the boot up process to launching aps [21:40] The prob with slide shows is you can't easily get to the feature you're interested in [21:41] we could just show ONE cap per feature, then if you click, you have a nice ajaxed galery [21:41] the prob with the row of thumbnails is that you can't make sense of the small thumbs and who wants to look at 20 images of the boot up process [21:41] yes, something like that would be good [21:41] this is why I think that the ui should allow click on descriptions and display screen shots [21:41] yeah, the web can't be made linear [21:41] so clicking would some equivalent to "show me more plz" [21:41] +be [21:41] ubris: good discription of the problem... linearity is the problem of both the slideshow and the thumb strip [21:42] its nice to be able to pick what you want to view [21:42] so this project needs a driver... someone who will take ownership of it, including soliciting and incorporating the help from others [21:42] I will help the driver but I'd love to someone besides me be the driver [21:42] and if I can pitch in a word or two, willing to help us with something similar for Kubuntu :) [21:43] oh a Kubuntu user! :) [21:43] we don't have to choose right now, but I sthere anyone who came to the meeting hoping to take on the job? [21:43] ryanakca is the kubuntu webmaster [21:43] that brings up a good question are we going to create one for all [21:43] * ryanakca will fire off an email to the kubuntu-devel ML after, I want to see the outcome of this meeting :) [21:43] BTW, anyone notice that the following screenshot has a glitch: [21:43] http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/images/features/screens/productivity-tools/main.jpg [21:43] interesting find [21:44] that is hard to notice [21:44] I saw it right away but forgot to file a bug report. [21:45] ok, one more chance, anyone here wanting to take the role as driver? If not, I'll post it to the list for decission this week. [21:45] I don't mind taken this position if there is no one else, but I would really like to get help from every one. [21:45] vbabiy: if you want I can post it to the list so that you can ponder it a little more before commiting [21:45] this is one of the bigger projects [21:45] yeah that works [21:45] I just want it to turn out that the driver had to do all th work [21:45] with a project this size [21:46] yes, I will try to help ensure that doesn't happen. [21:46] it is his role to delegate [21:46] well one of them :) [21:46] it's challenging, which is why it's taken me so long to start this team. :-) [21:46] Yeah this is true, delegating is not always the easiest thing to do in OSS [21:47] ok, lets move on to the next item [21:47] intrepid Start page [21:47] so this is a very delicate issue, let me outline what it is first [21:47] when a user installs ubuntu, their browser homepage is currently set to http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/ [21:47] it is a localized page, meaning that it will show up at least partially translated into their native language [21:48] this localized content is created by the doc team [21:48] you'll see a prominent google search box [21:49] this uses a google service that provides revenue for future ubuntu development [21:49] so in otherwords, the search box brings in revenue [21:49] It's ugly [21:49] wow [21:49] therefore one goal is to make it easy to use [21:49] and you would love it if users find this all handy enough to keep as their homepage? [21:49] The results page has to be themed [21:49] what is the goal exactly? the user should keep this page as his homepage? [21:49] we would, but for more reasons [21:49] another goal of this page is to communicate with users [21:50] I don't know if anyone here remembers the serous problem with X that came out about 18 months ago [21:50] users who performed an update lost access to their desktop [21:50] it was a serious problem [21:50] * ryanakca smiles [21:50] I think if its simple people will keep it, like firefox default homepage [21:50] they make millions off that [21:50] if it's useful! [21:50] we want to be able to continue to communicate with users if we need to [21:50] simple is good, but not good enough i think [21:51] vbabiy: yes, you're right, but another option is to make it interesting [21:51] news about ubuntu seems to be mandatory [21:51] so it needs to work well locally, and also have remote components? [21:51] risbac: I have made the same question on the goal of the page in the list, see ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2008-July/000231.html ) [21:51] yes, now we know it should be kept by users [21:51] random question that'll probably never need to be considered, how will we be able to communicate with that user through the page if X is broken... most people don't know about lynx & company [21:51] then thing if there is to much the load time of the page will make people change there home page to something like about:blank [21:51] before they reboot ryanakca? :) [21:52] I think if the goal is that users keep using it as their home page, it should bombard them with a little less information and be more spaced out. [21:52] so Volans has asked some good questions, let me answer them here [21:52] we can make it load dynamic content through ajax, so fast display for most of it, and the dynamic content arrives just after? [21:52] I'd love to have something like that [21:53] do we have an influence on the content Matt ? (damn, I always ask the same question...) [21:53] risbac: yes [21:53] we will work with the docteam [21:53] but most people to stick around the home page for that long [21:53] yman is right, the content is NOT appealing! [21:53] no [21:53] it is not interesting after your second time viewing it I think [21:53] too many sentences... too heavy [21:53] "welcome to ubuntu"? you want to see this one ONCE! :) [21:53] and it only allows basic search of google, not images nor anything else [21:54] regarding google, I'm discussing with them other options [21:54] so we have 2 missions: interesting content, sexy look? [21:54] so ideas for compelling features? [21:54] risbac: yes. [21:54] also not have the search to default to googl.co.uk [21:54] easy access to help [21:54] or at least not annoying [21:54] I'd say it should make content easy to access, but display near to nothing by default. [21:54] prominent search [21:54] plus: from a design point-of-view, there should be way more space around the search box, should be more centered and intuitive to use imo... [21:55] header is too big [21:55] pep: yes, you're right exactly [21:55] we have to define the content first... what would make us keep this page? [21:55] and here's one big important concept to remember, and this is hard - this page is available around the world in dozens of languages and cultures [21:55] I think that a static or semi dynamic page NOT customizable by the user can't be the user homepage, no matter how sexy and appealing it is [21:56] you mean something like iGoogle Volans? let's hire ;) [21:56] How about doing it the other way around? using an ubuntu-ized google page instead of an own page with a google search box? [21:56] exactly risbac, but I think that this is NOT the goal of that page [21:56] the goal is to make the user stay? :) [21:56] imho, if I were a new user, the only thing I would care about seeing is the logo, the search box, nice and big, and then underneath it, Search Web Search Ubuntu Documentation [21:56] Didn't Google creat some FOSS implementation of Google Gadgets? [21:57] "Get Help" [21:57] google gadgets are easy to use, but allowing the user to change them and have it be remembered is tricky [21:57] IMHO the goal is to give the new ubuntu user all the useful resources where he can find help to use better Ubuntu [21:57] what are restrictions of acceptable licenses for third-party libraries? [21:57] and news about Ubuntu, I think it's important [21:57]