[13:30] <mase_slapt> hey newz2000 mind if i pm you ?
[14:30] <newz2000> mase_slapt: no need to ask. ;-)
[15:44] <Volans> newz2000: Hi, perhaps have you planned to reply to the list's mail I have sent with the question about the start page topic?
[15:46] <pep> by the way, we're porting the ubuntu08 shiît theme to drupal 6....
[15:46] <pep> (hi all)
[15:46] <pep> http://www.lown.de/drupal-6.2/
[15:47] <pep> the guy's trying to do it real clean so that it can be re-used
[15:47] <pep> (in case anyone uses a 6.x website :-)µ
[15:49] <Volans> good news pep, are you using the theme developed by the US Locoteam you mentioned some days ago?
[15:49] <pep> no
[15:50] <pep> it is for drupal 5 and the menu on the right is not drupal compatible, they're hard-coded links...
[15:50] <pep> http://nj.ubuntu-us.org/
[15:50] <pep> not like the shipit site
[15:50] <pep> so my friend Houbsi took the original shipit css and worked from there, but it's not finished yet
[15:52] <Volans> oh great
[15:52] <pep> yeah I'll stay in touch
[15:54] <newz2000> pep: good news, please do share it
[15:54] <pep> I will :)
[15:54] <newz2000> Volans: I will re-read it and be prepared to discuss it for the meeting today
[15:54] <newz2000> the startpage is something I defintely want to discuss
[15:55] <pep> oh and he asked me how this was with the credits on the bottom of the page and the license for the theme... because there is a "© 2008 Canonical Ltd"
[15:55] <Volans> ok, I asked because I have made a mockup example and I thinked that is better to public it after the clarification of the Start Page goal
[15:56] <Volans> pep: see here: http://www.ubuntu.com/legal
[15:56] <newz2000> pep: please change that to match your communitie's need
[15:56] <newz2000> just observe the trademark policy with respect to the logo and name usage
[15:56] <newz2000> Volans: feel free to share your mockup if you're comfortable doing so. It can only aid in discussion, not hinder
[15:57] <pep> I'll try to understand that :)
[15:57] <Volans> newz2000: ok :) I will put it on the wiki page soon
[15:57] <newz2000> pep: this is a better link: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[15:58] <pep> Ok, I suppose I have "the relevant rights and permissions from the copyright holder" :)
[15:58] <pep> thanks newz2000
[16:04] <pep> Ok, my questions re answered concerning trademark... Now there was another thing... he asked me if he could put on the template that it had been ported to drupal 6.x by him.. I said ihe could technically, but that wasn't really the way things are done in our community, as you'd end up with hundreds of credits everywhere over the time... now was I right saying that?
[16:04] <pep> it's like crediting inside the code if you add something imo
[16:05] <newz2000> I straddle the fence on this one. I know that giving credit publicly greatly helps motivate people and I suggest doing this, however putting it on the bottom of the template probably isn't correct.
[16:05] <newz2000> You may want to create a "credits" page and list major contributors there
[16:06] <pep> exactly
[16:06] <vbabiy> Hey how are you all doing?
[16:06] <pep> I thin k exactly like you, and I think this might come because we are involved in Ubuntu and know the open source way pretty well... but he had some difficulties understanding that..
[16:06] <pep> fine vbabiy thank you :)
[16:07] <vbabiy> Looking forward to the meeting :)
[18:02] <ryanakca> Meeting in an hour?
[18:03] <Volans> ryanakca: no, 20 UTC ;)
[18:03] <Volans> 3 hour
[18:04] <Volans> newz2000: just added my proposal to the Start Page wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage ;)
[18:04]  * ryanakca nods and grumbles at poor time convertion skills
[18:04] <pep> :)
[18:04]  * ryanakca wonders if that's the correct spelling of convertion
[18:04] <newz2000> conversion
[18:05]  * ryanakca nods, thanks
[18:05] <Volans> ryanakca: where are you from?
[18:05] <jpds> ryanakca: 'date -u'
[18:06] <newz2000> oh, that's a nice trick
[18:06] <ryanakca> Volans: Kingston, Ontario :)
[18:06] <ryanakca> (I guess I should specify than Ontario is a canadian province)
[18:07] <Volans> too distant from GMT for a quick conversion... :)
[18:07] <nand> hey
[18:07]  * nand just come back from holidays
[18:07] <Volans> Hi nand
[18:08] <jpds> 'lo nand
[18:08] <nand> newz2000: anything came up with the navigation, and specifically with the intersite nav?
[18:08] <nand> sorry I didn't read all the mails yet :)
[18:08] <newz2000> howdy
[18:08] <newz2000> no, I've got a lengthy email to gerry in the works
[18:08] <ryanakca> half the year it's -5, others it's -4, I get mixed up between the two. It would be easier if everybody just used UTC and people wrapped their head around the possibility that the sun could rise at 1300 and set at 0100 :)
[18:09] <newz2000> nand: so no change yet
[18:09] <newz2000> I hope to get internal discussion started this week though
[18:09] <Volans> ryanakca: I will prefer so much if only DST will be used for the whole year
[18:10] <newz2000> nand: mpt is the person behind launchpad's ui and is also very interested in this subject too.
[18:10] <risbac> good luch Matt ;)
[18:10] <risbac> luck (oupssss)
[18:10] <mpt> Hello hello
[18:10] <nand> okay. since we gonna again change the top navigation for QA related website plus brainstorm, I'm interested too :)
[18:11] <Volans> sorry guys but now I have to go, see you later for the meeting :)
[18:11] <newz2000> nand: interestingly enough, mpt reminded me that this problem existed (slightly differently) in the previous revision of the website with the bouncing tabs
[18:11] <stgraber> hey there
[18:12] <newz2000> making it one of our longest standing website annoyances
[18:12] <newz2000> howdy stgraber
[18:12] <nand> stgraber <= he's working on the QA sites
[18:12]  * mpt wonders if newz2000 has any experience with making IE tolerate negative margins :-)
[18:12] <newz2000> mpt: I've used negative margins..., are you doing header image replacement?
[18:13] <newz2000> oh, that's negative indent
[18:13] <mpt> newz2000, no, just aligning headings to the left of the rest of the section
[18:13] <newz2000> mpt: the first time I did it was when I used this layout here: http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/skidoo_too/
[18:13] <mpt> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:13] <newz2000> it uses negative margins for the left column
[18:14] <mpt> Works fine in FF2, FF3, Opera, Midori, and IE for the first couple of seconds. Starts sucking in IE a couple of seconds after the page loads.
[18:18] <newz2000> mpt: wow, that's an interesting problem
[18:19] <risbac> an interesting problem? :) You are very optimistic, i would say a huge waste of time because of Microsoft :)
[18:19] <mpt> Also works after resizing the IE window :-)
[18:19] <newz2000> wow
[18:20] <newz2000> mpt: if instead of -212px you use -211 does it work better?
[18:20]  * newz2000 wishes for ie firebug
[18:21] <risbac> Matt, did you try the developer toolbar for IE? it's nothing close to firebug or webdeveloper under FF, but it helps
[18:21] <newz2000> I'm digging way back but seem to remember something about the negative indent having a prob if it matched the margin
[18:21] <newz2000> risbac: I thought it died with IE 5.5
[18:21]  * newz2000 googles
[18:22] <risbac> this one: http://www.microsoft.com/downloadS/details.aspx?familyid=E59C3964-672D-4511-BB3E-2D5E1DB91038&displaylang=en
[18:22] <mpt> newz2000, nope
[18:30]  * mpt blinks
[18:30] <mpt> I think I've fixed it
[18:44]  * Volans back
[19:49] <vbabiy> The meeting is in a hour right?
[19:50] <pep> vbabiy: correct, in an hour and 10 minutes
[19:50] <vbabiy> Cool
[19:50] <vbabiy> see you then
[19:51] <newz2000> I think the process of coordinating meetings could improve
[19:51] <newz2000> Even though I know what time it is there's this fear of, "did I do mymath wrong?"
[19:51] <newz2000> and really, this mess of dealing with repetitive math is what computers excel at
[19:55] <pep> :)
[19:55] <pep> That would be an idea...
[19:55] <pep> a website dedicated to coordination.
[19:55] <pep> with all meetings (logs, agendas, minutes, etc...)
[19:56] <nand> the fridge? :)
[19:56] <nand> but improved
[19:56] <pep> yes
[19:56] <newz2000> yes, but ideally, it would say, "the meeting starts in 1 hour"
[19:56] <pep> imprved
[19:56] <pep> exactly, and give the time in UTC as well as your current time
[19:56] <newz2000> so that we don't have to worry about timezones
[19:56] <nand> in #ubuntu-meeting you can ask the bot for that
[19:56] <pep> I mean we are capable of doing it xD
[19:57] <pep> nand: but it would be better to optimize the source imo
[19:57] <newz2000> nand: its probably not appropriate while a meeting is in progress though
[19:57] <pep> that is the fridge for now
[19:57] <nand> indeed.
[20:52] <Volans> newz2000: meeting in 8 minutes?
[20:52]  * newz2000 is ready
[20:52]  * vbabiy is standing by :)
[20:53] <twilight> hello there
[20:53] <newz2000> hello twilight
[20:54] <vbabiy> hello every one
[20:56] <risbac> 4 minutes? I still didn't have my dinner :)
[20:57] <Volans> risbac: be very quickly or push back the dinner of one hour ;)
[20:57] <risbac> I'm pushing it back! One is sleepy with a too full stomach ;)
[20:57] <newz2000> I'm aiming for 40m btw with any remaining time being less formal discussion
[20:58] <Volans> newz2000: checked the ubuntulog bot?
[20:58] <newz2000> appears to be working fine
[20:58] <newz2000> we have no way of marking the log file though, except with some visual indicator
[20:59] <Volans> you can cat the log file after and put only the meeting part in another file somewhere
[20:59] <mpt> -------------------------------------------------8<-------------------------------------------------
[20:59] <Volans> s/cat/cut/
[20:59] <newz2000> yes, that will work fine
[21:00] <newz2000> or we can summarize it as minutes
[21:00] <newz2000> but as I see it, we should be about ready to start
[21:00] <newz2000> ----------------- BEGIN MEETING ---------------------
[21:01] <newz2000> good morning/evening/afternoon everyone
[21:01] <newz2000> I'm glad you could join us for our first meeting
[21:01] <newz2000> My name is Matthew Nuzum, aka newz (pronounced like new zealand bout without the 'land' at the end)
[21:02] <newz2000> I'm the ubuntu.com webmaster and a canonical employee
[21:02] <newz2000> I'm excited to see the participation we're having in the group and hope that we can continue to make progress
[21:03] <newz2000> My goal with our first batch of projects is for them to provide a good variety of meaningful work that will allow our group to show the world what we can do
[21:03] <newz2000> if we succeed, and I'm sure we will, then we'll be able to move on to bigger and better things
[21:03] <newz2000> Speaking of projects, this is the first thing on our agenda for this meeting
[21:04] <newz2000> so I wanted to take a moment to discuss each of our tasks
[21:04] <newz2000> on our homepage (our team's homepage) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website
[21:04] <newz2000> you'll see the current tasks listed
[21:04] <newz2000> they are:
[21:05] <newz2000>    IntrepidCountdownBanners
[21:05] <newz2000>     IntrepidFeatureTour
[21:05] <newz2000>     IntrepidStartPage
[21:05] <newz2000>     HardyStartPage
[21:05] <newz2000>     CommunityWebsite
[21:05] <newz2000>      CloseBugs
[21:05] <newz2000> Let's start with the countdown banners
[21:06] <newz2000> If you've watched the website during the last two releases you've seen a prominent banner counting down the days until release
[21:06] <newz2000> we've also made it so that this banner can be syndicated on other sites too
[21:06] <newz2000> for example, it's been on the fridge and many many other sites
[21:06] <newz2000> the syndication occurs by a website owner copying and pasting a single line of html/javascript into their page
[21:07] <newz2000> as seen here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/countdown
[21:07] <newz2000> this javascript does a simple calculation that figures out the number of days until release and loads the correct image
[21:08] <newz2000> I've had numerous people say, "my specialty is web graphics, how can I help?"
[21:08] <newz2000> So as I was planning this team I felt this would be an awesome first project
[21:16] <newz2000> as you can see on our project page, there is already progress: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners
[21:16] <newz2000> I personally don't feel like we have to choose a single banner to syndicate
[21:16] <newz2000> though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage
[21:16] <pep> oh :)
[21:16] <risbac> ahahah
[21:16] <risbac> flooder flooder!
[21:16] <pep> welcome back
[21:16] <risbac> maybe we should react from time to time, like "mmm" or "oh yes"
[21:16] <newz2000> hi, what was the last thing you heard me say?
[21:17] <Volans> (22:16:10) newz2000: though we will of course only use on on ubuntu.com's homepage
[21:17] <newz2000> oh crud
[21:17] <newz2000> :-(
[21:17] <Volans> (22:16:10) newz2000 ha abbandonato il canale (quit: Excess Flood).
[21:17] <newz2000> what? excess flood. :-)
[21:17] <Volans> yeah :)
[21:17] <pep> yes
[21:17] <risbac> yes, you are talking too much :)
[21:17] <newz2000> nice.
[21:17] <newz2000> let me see what you missed
[21:17]  * ryanakca shuffles in quietly
[21:18] <pep> (to be honest I was wondering if my connection was bugging when there was this 8 minute break...)
[21:18]  * nand too
[21:18] <newz2000> http://pastebin.com/d28e7c44a
[21:19] <newz2000> wouldn't want to get booted for flooding again by pasting in whole backlog
[21:19] <pep> hehe
[21:19] <newz2000> lol.
[21:19] <mpt> erm
[21:20] <mpt> "target dimensions of 180x150, which is a standard banner ad size"
[21:20] <risbac> "The images should not make reference to "Intrepid Ibex" since this is a code name that will not be used once we hit beta (when the banners start to be used)" You can explain that?
[21:20] <mpt> I seem to recall that we had problems with the countdown not appearing for 8.04, precisely because it was a standard banner ad size
[21:20] <newz2000> according to http://www.iab.net/iab_products_and_industry_services/1421/1443/1452
[21:20] <newz2000> mpt: no that was because the word "banner" was in the url
[21:20] <mpt> oh, ok
[21:21] <nand> technical remark, since some content engines do not allow JS to be inserted (or filter it), why not use directly an <img> with an autogenerated image?
[21:21] <newz2000> nand: we shy from dynamic content, especially something syndicated since it will impact server availability during the crushing release-day rush
[21:21] <risbac> cache pbs?
[21:22] <pep> nand: there can be one image done for anti-js admins, but I think that js is a good idea
[21:22] <nand> the autogenerated image would use cache internally => generating the image once in a while, and storing in it cache
[21:22] <stgraber> or just a simple symlink :)
[21:22] <newz2000> true
[21:22] <nand> too :)
[21:23] <newz2000> symlink would probably get sysadmin approval
[21:23] <nand> anyhow, I can provide the code if anyone wants it
[21:23] <Volans> the symlink in the image server to the right image can be very quick and smart solution IMHO
[21:24] <newz2000> so a lot of the images that have been proposed are in the category I'd call, "plyaing it safe."
[21:24] <vbabiy> newz2000: where are these images going to be hosted?
[21:24] <pep> It is a god idea.. we can push many peolpe to participate and contribute their design of the banner, and add some sort of ticker system.. it raises pride if your banner is the most used.. (what do you think?)
[21:24] <newz2000> www.ubuntu.com's static media servers
[21:24] <vbabiy> okay
[21:24] <newz2000> pep, I'd llike to have more involvement for sure. I'm not sure what annalysis options we'll have
[21:24] <newz2000> ﻿new art tends to be a bit edgy, and then gets toned down for production
[21:25] <newz2000> I'm surprised that we've not had more radical looking submissions
[21:25] <newz2000> Personally, I like to see the edgy stuff so would love to see some new stuff show up
[21:25] <vbabiy> newz2000: I have been working on one but haven't had a chance to finish it
[21:25] <pep> Mhh.. this is a little abstract.. just an idea.. but it would be something to present to an infographics class at some school...
[21:26] <Volans> be careful with the caching directive for the static image/symlink option or the browsers will cache the wrong one
[21:26] <newz2000> yes, that had crossed my mind
[21:26] <vbabiy> Volans: that could be a big problem
[21:26] <newz2000> lets focus on questions about what type of art is useful and then move on to the next agenda item
[21:26] <risbac> how about an image revealing the new look of 8.10 day by day?
[21:26] <newz2000> any questions about acceptability?
[21:26] <newz2000> risbac: good idea
[21:26] <newz2000> I like it
[21:27] <risbac> this way, it's more than "just" a number
[21:27] <Volans> like a puzzle, good idea
[21:27] <newz2000> it will take some coordination with the art lead and the distro team
[21:27] <vbabiy> risbac: But that all depends on when the look will be finalized .
[21:27] <risbac> but it would require that we have the final theme earlier ;)
[21:27] <risbac> yep
[21:27] <risbac> just an idea
[21:27] <newz2000> risbac: it may be necessary to change the feature every four or five days
[21:27] <vbabiy> risbac: yeah I do like
[21:27] <risbac> if we have the theme, then why not
[21:27] <newz2000> we can always use the hardy theme, I suspect the end theme will not differ greatly
[21:28] <risbac> anyway, with multiples versions, we have multiple plans B...
[21:28] <newz2000> indeed
[21:28] <vbabiy> newz2000: but if thats the case then there won't be much surprise for the end user :)
[21:28] <risbac> yes, must be something intriguing, something new
[21:29] <newz2000> I'll let you artists figure that part out. ;-)
[21:29] <risbac> yeah, me too, I suck in gimp ;)
[21:29] <newz2000> ﻿﻿I don't think we need to assign a driver for this task because everyone can lead their own idea
[21:29] <vbabiy> also there are some many screen shot tour out there that people will already have seen any new looks
[21:29] <newz2000> speaking of which, lets move on to the feature tour
[21:30] <newz2000> this is the next todo list item
[21:30] <newz2000> Assuming we pull it off, it will be featured prominantly on the ubuntu homepage and will get a lot of eyeballs
[21:30] <newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/ currently
[21:31] <vbabiy> wow the feature just became a more important
[21:31] <vbabiy> feature tour*
[21:31] <newz2000> yes, I'd love to see something that makes people scream wow!!!
[21:32] <vbabiy> and fall out of their chiars
[21:32] <risbac> is it just about the graphical part, or the content too?
[21:32] <newz2000> lets focus on the graphical part
[21:32] <newz2000> and the distro team can help us suggest content
[21:32] <vbabiy> I think everything has to be top notch
[21:32] <newz2000> we will then need to deliver the content near release day
[21:32] <newz2000> ﻿I don't think the layout has to be constrained to match ubuntu.com, though it should bare enoug resemblence that people don't wonder where they're at
[21:33] <vbabiy> but will that still be allowed if its on the homepage
[21:33] <newz2000> I think the current tour does a good job of being harmonious with ubuntu.com but still looks markedly different
[21:34] <vbabiy> yeah I see what you mean
[21:35] <newz2000> So the big requirement is no flash
[21:35] <newz2000> as cool as it would be, we just can't use a technology that would be inaccessible to new ubuntu users
[21:35] <yman> does JS support transition effects for images?
[21:35] <newz2000> yes
[21:35] <vbabiy> yman:
[21:35] <Volans> AJAX is allowed?
[21:35] <vbabiy> yeah
[21:36] <newz2000> ajax is definitely allowed
[21:36] <pep> Ajax is good imo...
[21:36] <vbabiy> I think we can do everything we need in JS
[21:36] <newz2000> I agree
[21:36] <pep> yes
[21:36] <risbac> pages are a bit static, we could use ajax to hide text and show it only on click with a cool effect
[21:36] <twilight> I've already posted this link on our ML, what do you think of this feature tour http://www.ubuntu-it.org/index.php?page=caratteristiche ?
[21:36] <Volans> wait some seconds after the load of the page ;)
[21:36] <risbac> faster would be nice yes
[21:37] <newz2000> so this is good for discussion but leaves me wanting a bit more
[21:37] <newz2000> and maybe if I could read italian I'd be ok
[21:37] <yman> Is it possible to make images download in the background before they are displayed? How about before the img tag even exists?
[21:37] <newz2000> yman: yes
[21:37] <vbabiy> yman: yes
[21:38] <newz2000> people visiting ubuntu.com will already have mootools in their browser cache
[21:38] <vbabiy> the power of JS is very under estimated by a lot of people.
[21:38] <newz2000> mootools provides excellent effects and ajax support
[21:38] <ubris> the tour must also function without JS imo
[21:38] <newz2000> ubris: good point
[21:39] <twilight> newz2000: ahahah, the italian content is only a translation of the english version (ubuntu.com)
[21:39] <newz2000> ok, the navigation on the left is site navigation then
[21:39] <Volans> yes
[21:39] <risbac> first page lacks some images
[21:39] <Volans> the title are the equivalent of the right menu in the english version
[21:39] <Volans> s/title/titles/
[21:40] <newz2000> ﻿I've seen two kinds of feature tours
[21:40] <risbac> slideshows look nice, but who is really looking at them on this kind of page?
[21:40] <newz2000> slide show is one, then there's the kind that show you a huge row of thumbnails through the boot up process to launching aps
[21:40] <newz2000> The prob with slide shows is you can't easily get to the feature you're interested in
[21:41] <risbac> we could just show ONE cap per feature, then if you click, you have a nice ajaxed galery
[21:41] <newz2000> the prob with the row of thumbnails is that you can't make sense of the small thumbs and who wants to look at 20 images of the boot up process
[21:41] <newz2000> yes, something like that would be good
[21:41] <vbabiy> this is why I think that the ui should allow click on descriptions and display screen shots
[21:41] <ubris> yeah, the web can't be made linear
[21:41] <risbac> so clicking would some equivalent to "show me more plz"
[21:41] <risbac> +be
[21:41] <newz2000> ubris: good discription of the problem... linearity is the problem of both the slideshow and the thumb strip
[21:42] <newz2000> its nice to be able to pick what you want to view
[21:42] <newz2000> so this project needs a driver... someone who will take ownership of it, including soliciting and incorporating the help from others
[21:42] <newz2000> I will help the driver but I'd love to someone besides me be the driver
[21:42] <ryanakca> and if I can pitch in a word or two, willing to help us with something similar for Kubuntu :)
[21:43] <risbac> oh a Kubuntu user! :)
[21:43] <newz2000> we don't have to choose right now, but I sthere anyone who came to the meeting hoping to take on the job?
[21:43] <newz2000> ryanakca is the kubuntu webmaster
[21:43] <vbabiy> that brings up a good question are we going to create one for all
[21:43]  * ryanakca will fire off an email to the kubuntu-devel ML after, I want to see the outcome of this meeting :)
[21:43] <yman> BTW, anyone notice that the following screenshot has a glitch:
[21:43] <yman> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/images/features/screens/productivity-tools/main.jpg
[21:43] <newz2000> interesting find
[21:44] <vbabiy> that is hard to notice
[21:44] <yman> I saw it right away but forgot to file a bug report.
[21:45] <newz2000> ok, one more chance, anyone here wanting to take the role as driver? If not, I'll post it to the list for decission this week.
[21:45] <vbabiy> I don't mind taken this position if there is no one else, but I would really like to get help from every one.
[21:45] <newz2000> vbabiy: if you want I can post it to the list so that you can ponder it a little more before commiting
[21:45] <newz2000> this is one of the bigger projects
[21:45] <vbabiy> yeah that works
[21:45] <vbabiy> I just want it to turn out that the driver had to do all th work
[21:45] <vbabiy> with a project this size
[21:46] <newz2000> yes, I will try to help ensure that doesn't happen.
[21:46] <pep> it is his role to delegate
[21:46] <pep> well one of them :)
[21:46] <newz2000> it's challenging, which is why it's taken me so long to start this team. :-)
[21:46] <vbabiy> Yeah this is true, delegating is not always the easiest thing to do in OSS
[21:47] <newz2000> ok, lets move on to the next item
[21:47] <newz2000> intrepid Start page
[21:47] <newz2000> so this is a very delicate issue, let me outline what it is first
[21:47] <newz2000> when a user installs ubuntu, their browser homepage is currently set to http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/
[21:47] <newz2000> it is a localized page, meaning that it will show up at least partially translated into their native language
[21:48] <newz2000> this localized content is created by the doc team
[21:48] <newz2000> you'll see a prominent google search box
[21:49] <newz2000> this uses a google service that provides revenue for future ubuntu development
[21:49] <newz2000> so in otherwords, the search box brings in revenue
[21:49] <yman> It's ugly
[21:49] <pep> wow
[21:49] <newz2000> therefore one goal is to make it easy to use
[21:49] <ubris> and you would love it if users find this all handy enough to keep as their homepage?
[21:49] <yman> The results page has to be themed
[21:49] <risbac> what is the goal exactly? the user should keep this page as his homepage?
[21:49] <newz2000> we would, but for more reasons
[21:49] <newz2000> another goal of this page is to communicate with users
[21:50] <newz2000> I don't know if anyone here remembers the serous problem with X that came out about 18 months ago
[21:50] <newz2000> users who performed an update lost access to their desktop
[21:50] <newz2000> it was a serious problem
[21:50]  * ryanakca smiles
[21:50] <vbabiy> I think if its simple people will keep it, like firefox default homepage
[21:50] <vbabiy> they make millions off that
[21:50] <risbac> if it's useful!
[21:50] <newz2000> we want to be able to continue to communicate with users if we need to
[21:50] <risbac> simple is good, but not good enough i think
[21:51] <newz2000> vbabiy: yes, you're right, but another option is to make it interesting
[21:51] <risbac> news about ubuntu seems to be mandatory
[21:51] <ubris> so it needs to work well locally, and also have remote components?
[21:51] <Volans> risbac: I have made the same question on the goal of the page in the list, see ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2008-July/000231.html )
[21:51] <risbac> yes, now we know it should be kept by users
[21:51] <ryanakca> random question that'll probably never need to be considered, how will we be able to communicate with that user through the page if X is broken... most people don't know about lynx & company
[21:51] <vbabiy> then thing if there is to much the load time of the page will make people change there home page to something like about:blank
[21:51] <risbac> before they reboot ryanakca? :)
[21:52] <yman> I think if the goal is that users keep using it as their home page, it should bombard them with a little less information and be more spaced out.
[21:52] <newz2000> so Volans has asked some good questions, let me answer them here
[21:52] <risbac> we can make it load dynamic content through ajax, so fast display for most of it, and the dynamic content arrives just after?
[21:52] <newz2000> I'd love to have something like that
[21:53] <risbac> do we have an influence on the content Matt ? (damn, I always ask the same question...)
[21:53] <newz2000> risbac: yes
[21:53] <newz2000> we will work with the docteam
[21:53] <vbabiy> but most people to stick around the home page for that long
[21:53] <risbac> yman is right, the content is NOT appealing!
[21:53] <pep> no
[21:53] <newz2000> it is not interesting after your second time viewing it I think
[21:53] <risbac> too many sentences... too heavy
[21:53] <risbac> "welcome to ubuntu"? you want to see this one ONCE! :)
[21:53] <pep> and it only allows basic search of google, not images nor anything else
[21:54] <newz2000> regarding google, I'm discussing with them other options
[21:54] <risbac> so we have 2 missions: interesting content, sexy look?
[21:54] <ubris> so ideas for compelling features?
[21:54] <newz2000> risbac: yes.
[21:54] <vbabiy> also not have the search to default to googl.co.uk
[21:54] <risbac> easy access to help
[21:54] <newz2000> or at least not annoying
[21:54] <yman> I'd say it should make content easy to access, but display near to nothing by default.
[21:54] <newz2000> prominent search
[21:54] <pep> plus: from a design point-of-view, there should be way more space around the search box, should be more centered and intuitive to use imo...
[21:55] <risbac> header is too big
[21:55] <newz2000> pep: yes, you're right exactly
[21:55] <risbac> we have to define the content first... what would make us keep this page?
[21:55] <newz2000> and here's one big important concept to remember, and this is hard - this page is available around the world in dozens of languages and cultures
[21:55] <Volans> I think that a static or semi dynamic page NOT customizable by the user can't be the user homepage, no matter how sexy and appealing it is
[21:56] <risbac> you mean something like iGoogle Volans? let's hire ;)
[21:56] <pep> How about doing it the other way around? using an ubuntu-ized google page instead of an own page with a google search box?
[21:56] <Volans> exactly risbac, but I think that this is NOT the goal of that page
[21:56] <risbac> the goal is to make the user stay? :)
[21:56] <ryanakca> imho, if I were a new user, the only thing I would care about seeing is the logo, the search box, nice and big, and then underneath it, Search Web    Search Ubuntu Documentation
[21:56] <yman> Didn't Google creat some FOSS implementation of Google Gadgets?
[21:57] <risbac> "Get Help"
[21:57] <newz2000> google gadgets are easy to use, but allowing the user to change them and have it be remembered is tricky
[21:57] <Volans> IMHO the goal is to give the new ubuntu user all the useful resources where he can find help to use better Ubuntu
[21:57] <ubris> what are restrictions of acceptable licenses for third-party libraries?
[21:57] <risbac> and news about Ubuntu, I think it's important
[21:57] <Volans> I have upload a proposal in the wiki page today, next the Lizzeh proposal
[21:57] <newz2000> ubris: can you give an example?
[21:58] <ubris> well, does Google Gears have unacceptable usage terms?
[21:58] <newz2000> hmm. Probably not going to work since its not installed by default
[21:59] <newz2000> it needs to work for users with a default ubuntu install
[21:59] <Volans> just to see it if you want ;) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage
[21:59] <newz2000> if we err, I'd prefer to err on the side of helping new users rather than catering to power users
[21:59] <risbac> your proposal is nice Volans, i would just add some dynamic content
[21:59] <newz2000> another problem with gadgets is that it's hard to find a selection that is meaningful to users around the globe
[22:00] <risbac> and to integrate gadgets is really more complicated, maybe we can keep it for 9.04 or later?
[22:00] <newz2000> that may be a good plan
[22:00] <Volans> newz2000: a "static" collection of gadget will never be better than a fully customized homepage, I think is not our goal to create such an homepage
[22:00] <risbac> it's hard to compete with Google, maybe we should really focus on our own strengths
[22:01] <pep> compete?
[22:01] <risbac> ehhhh
[22:01] <risbac> frenglish
[22:01] <pep> we're not competing we're working with them
[22:01] <risbac> "be in a competition with"?
[22:01] <pep> yes
[22:01] <newz2000> risbac: right. In this way I'd like to err towards helping new ubuntu users
[22:01] <pep> we are not I think :)
[22:01] <risbac> but now we are talking more or less about an alternative to IGoogle?
[22:01] <newz2000> I assumed he meant, "they have a choice between us and iGoogle"
[22:02] <risbac> if it looks like Igoogle, but not as good, they will just not use it
[22:02] <newz2000> I think power users probably already have a favorite and I'm not sure our community can compete with the many excellent choices out there.
[22:02] <newz2000> I don't think we can be everything to everyone
[22:02] <risbac> yep
[22:02] <newz2000> so lets focus on our strengths
[22:02] <newz2000> and that is providing a great ubuntu desktop to all users
[22:02] <risbac> simple is better, help, community, news, less is better
[22:03] <newz2000> the start page is available in launchpad. There's a simple (bug ugly) build script that generates the output from the translated text provided by the doc team
[22:03] <Volans> we can add on the right a vertical box with some useful news
[22:04] <risbac> but do we REALLY have useful news? and localized?
[22:04] <risbac> the ubuntu homepage news look like dead
[22:04] <newz2000> risbac: duly noted
[22:04] <Volans> I don't know, is why I don't have put it in my proposal
[22:04] <pep> yes
[22:04] <risbac> it's more for the press than for users!
[22:04] <mpt> There are currently 261 words on the start page
[22:05] <risbac> what I like from the ubuntu planet blog is the useful tips from... I don't remember. This is more or less what I would like to see there, maybe simplified
[22:05] <mpt> I suggest halving that, at least :-)
[22:05] <newz2000> risbac: we need to be careful about thinking what we want. We're probably not our target user.
[22:05] <pep> I think the best is to keep a complete web search solution (so google), as well as search of the documentation in your language...
[22:05] <risbac> true, that's why i say we need something less tehcnical :)
[22:06] <pep> and links to the main ubuntu sites
[22:06] <newz2000> ok, so the driver for this project has to be a very tenacious
[22:06] <pep> like brainstorm and planet and so on
[22:06] <yman> Question: do users on the long run use their homepage to learn about their OS?
[22:06] <risbac> Christer Edwards blog, that's the idea, but NOT for advanced user. It really helps discovering plenty of cool features
[22:07] <newz2000> We may need to have another meeting just about the start page before we can choose a driver
[22:07] <newz2000> here are some questions I have..
[22:07] <ryanakca> risbac: haven't really been paying attention, but something like KDE's tip of the day (window that opens when you open any KDE app) ?
[22:07] <newz2000> can we publish "work in progress" start pages to 8.10 so we can get preliminary feedback?
[22:07] <newz2000> (no one here can answer that btw)
[22:07] <risbac> tip of the day, exactly
[22:07] <ubris> like tip of the day
[22:08] <risbac> there are SO MANY features people don't even know about!
[22:08] <ubris> app of the day?
[22:08] <risbac> those can make a difference, I really think they can
[22:08] <risbac> for instance too ubris!
[22:08] <Volans> newz2000: what do you mean?
[22:08] <newz2000> good comments
[22:08] <pep> that's good
[22:08] <ubris> every day feature a new app
[22:08] <ryanakca> Is anybody here doing the minutes?
[22:08] <risbac> new app or new tip
[22:08] <newz2000> ﻿Volans: there is an alpha due out Thursday, too soon for an update, but I wonder if for alpha 4 we could have our work in progress page posted
[22:09] <risbac> but will be hard to localize this... if not impossible
[22:09] <Volans> sure, but we have do decide before the right way
[22:09] <Volans> risbac: for the localization there are the doc teams ;)
[22:10] <yman> App of the day would be a whole article, and really I don't think it will work out all that well. App of the week is more realistic IMO
[22:10] <newz2000> yman: yes, probably
[22:10] <risbac> but about tips and applications, who will publish them?
[22:10] <Volans> and if we use a simpler page then the actual one probably all the terms are already translated
[22:10] <pep> that's the biggest problem imo risbac
[22:10] <mpt> iirc Debian has a "package of the day" and frequent problems finding contributors to describe them
[22:10] <newz2000> risbac: well, uwn is translated weekly
[22:10] <risbac> maybe it's acceptable to have this part in english?
[22:10] <ubris> whole article - but can use a teaser thumbnail or text hyperlinking
[22:10] <mpt> http://debaday.debian.net/
[22:10] <risbac> ok so maybe we have some content then
[22:11] <mpt> However, most of those would not make sense to a large chunk of Ubuntu users
[22:11] <risbac> another meeting is clearly needed to define at least the content :)
[22:11] <newz2000> yes
[22:11] <yman> About app of the whatever, it might be worth thinking of integrating it with Add/Remove applications and the feature tour.
[22:12] <risbac> every single ubuntu user will see this page... so we'd better not fail ;)
[22:12] <newz2000> risbac: yes
[22:12] <risbac> Ubuntu has no "one click install" like Opensuse?
[22:12] <risbac> apturl ?
[22:12] <vbabiy> yeah the start page I think has the most  value
[22:12] <risbac> would be neat: you discover the application, you click to install, 10 seconds...
[22:13] <newz2000> too ambitious for October, but a nice idea
[22:13] <vbabiy> well you can use a special url and it will install it for you in ubuntu
[22:13] <risbac> yes, at least we can write it in the list of improvements...
[22:13] <ubris> enabling app install to be launched from browser must be fraught with issues, right?
[22:13] <risbac> so it exists Vbabiy?
[22:13] <vbabiy> risbac: yeah, I have seen people do it
[22:13] <risbac> Opensuse does it, do they have problems?
[22:14] <risbac> as long as it does NOT add a repo?
[22:14] <risbac> we are talking about running apt from the browser, right?
[22:14] <vbabiy> yeah
[22:14] <risbac> so it's not less or more secured than apt :)
[22:14] <yman> not really. it just installs it from the existing repository. security issues are more likely if it could be used with 3rd party repositories. I actually with it did.
[22:15] <newz2000> ok, lets officially wrap up the meeting, though discussion can continue
[22:15] <risbac> ok
[22:15] <newz2000> so in summary, no driver is needed for countdowns
[22:15] <newz2000> please, everyone interested submit ideas
[22:15] <risbac> I like this from Opensuse... u read the page, u like what you see, you click, it's here in 10 seconds! that's just taking advantage of the repos, it's a good promotion for the OS
[22:15] <risbac> oups, sorry
[22:15] <risbac> too late
[22:16] <newz2000> for the feature tour, we'll move discussion on to the list and choose a driver by the end of the week
[22:16] <newz2000> for the start page we need to discuss on the list then have another meeting to decide what features
[22:16] <newz2000> are included
[22:16] <vbabiy> risbac: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/07/08/improve-application-startup-times-with-preload/
[22:16] <vbabiy> take a look at the link
[22:16] <newz2000> let's call it a wrap, but any futher discussions can be included in the minutes as appropriate
[22:16] <newz2000> thanks for participating.
[22:16] <newz2000> ----------------------- MEETING END ---------------------
[22:17] <newz2000> carry on discussion now. :-)
[22:17] <risbac> Thnks Vbabiy
[22:17] <vbabiy> That went well
[22:17] <newz2000> except for the part where I got kicked off. :-)
[22:17] <newz2000> that will go down in infamy
[22:17] <Volans> LOL
[22:17] <risbac> apt and how applications are installed in Ubuntu is a wonderful selling point, and it's not advertised anywhere. i think it's a real pity
[22:17] <vbabiy> newz2000: how often are we going to have these
[22:18] <Volans> risbac: for the feature tour?
[22:18] <newz2000> good question, I guess as needed
[22:18] <ubris> I think it's a selling point, too - no licensing crud to deal with
[22:18] <risbac> yes also, but the content is out of our hands, right?
[22:18] <newz2000> vbabiy: probably want to varry the times a bit to get full participation
[22:18] <yman> People forget even the most significant events in history. Take heart, for you insignificance is such that non will remember your shame.
[22:18] <vbabiy> newz2000: yeah thats a good point
[22:19] <vbabiy> but have them quite often is also good it builds bigger bonds to the group
[22:19] <newz2000> yman: its good to be reminded of that every so often
[22:19] <newz2000> vbabiy: good suggestion
[22:19] <risbac> and it's very different from Windows, people are a bit confused, so we should explain it to make it appear like a BIG strength instead of "it's not working like in windows, I don't understand"
[22:19] <vbabiy> gets everyone excited about these project all over again
[22:20] <newz2000> I'll start writing up minutes for the list
[22:20] <vbabiy> risbac: one place where this could be very useful, is have a little application that runs the first time you log in that ask if you would like to take a tour through Ubuntu
[22:20] <risbac> yes
[22:21] <Volans> the fact that you can install quite all the applications trough one package manager and update all of them togheter in a centralized manner is a very big imporvement relative to the windows world and also in part relative to the mac world
[22:21] <yman> I really think that it should be possible to allow updating only certain very specific packages in the repository. Then it will be possible to install packages from 3rd party repositories without getting updates for stuff that exists in fully-trusted repositories.
[22:21] <vbabiy> I don't know if this is the correct group for that project but I think it could really help
[22:21] <risbac> and it should be in the feature tour on the website to me! it's fundamental, that's one of the main difference with windows
[22:21] <risbac> I agree... you can easily list all the advantages of this installation process.... And they are numerous
[22:22] <newz2000> food for thought, Novel provides a monthly newsletter that always includes at least one nice tip for improving productivity when using sled
[22:22] <vbabiy> risbac: yeah that is a key feature for the feature tour
[22:22] <risbac> I see ubuntu users going online to download sources of softwares and complaining about the difficulty! they don't KNOW about synaptic, it's a shame, really...
[22:22] <risbac> they try to compile! that's insane!
[22:23] <vbabiy> yeah, specially if they are new to linux
[22:23] <risbac> and it makes them have a wrong opinion on the OS... from the beginning! it's really bad
[22:24] <risbac> it's so normal for us that we don't think about promoting it
[22:24] <mase_desktop> morn all
[22:24] <mase_desktop> too late for teh meeting ?
[22:24] <newz2000> hi mase_desktop
[22:24] <risbac> ahah just finished!
[22:24] <newz2000> you're catching the follow up discussion
[22:24] <mase_desktop> really, damn
[22:24] <mase_desktop> hmm
[22:25] <newz2000> mase_desktop: were you hoping to be the driver for one of the projects?
[22:25] <yman> then if apturl supported installation from 3rd party repositories then something simple like apt://ymans-brain@ymans-body.com could be used to install a single application from a 3rd party repository, that will get updates without having to enable the entire repository.
[22:25] <mase_desktop> must have calcutated wrong
[22:25] <risbac> I'm not sure 3d party repos are even needed ! :)
[22:25] <risbac> but that's a good idea, that could be usefull
[22:25] <mase_desktop> newz2000: no, not that artistic :) just wanted to actually attend
[22:26] <risbac> it's not only artistic :)
[22:26] <risbac> I would not be there otherwise ;)
[22:26]  * mase_desktop wonders where he went wrong with his time calculations
[22:26] <newz2000> we should add a new project for coordinating team meetings
[22:26] <newz2000> with a built in countdown... "meeting in X min..."
[22:26] <yman> Sometimes they are, like the unofficial getdeb repo, or medibuntu.
[22:26] <pep> :)
[22:26] <risbac> true yman...
[22:26] <pep> +1 newz2000
[22:27] <newz2000> mase_desktop: you mised it, I got kicked off the channel right at the beginning of the meeting. :-)
[22:27] <mase_desktop> haha
[22:27] <risbac> ahah that's all you want him to remember about the meeting?? :)
[22:27] <mase_desktop> i bet that helps alot
[22:27] <risbac> he was flooding us!
[22:27] <risbac> he deserved it! :)
[22:27] <mase_desktop> so is there a log somewhere ?
[22:27] <risbac> matt is on it now
[22:27] <Volans> mase_desktop: use date -u to see the UTC time for you ;)
[22:27] <risbac> while we keep complaining about the current pages :)
[22:28] <Volans> /for you//
[22:28] <newz2000> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/07/22/%23ubuntu-website.html but not up to dat eyet
[22:28] <mase_desktop> Volans: nah i had kde display utc for me
[22:28] <mase_desktop> it was me that messed up
[22:28] <mase_desktop> not my machine
[22:28] <Volans> ahahah LOL, I have installed the gnome international clock only for that team :)
[22:28] <newz2000> I have a google app engine account, maybe this would be a fun experimental project
[22:28] <Volans> but it don't have all the right places
[22:29] <risbac> newz2000: you mean for startpage?
[22:29] <newz2000> no for meeting scheduler
[22:29] <risbac> oh ok
[22:29] <risbac> how about a simple ical?
[22:29] <newz2000> needs to have a countdown
[22:29] <yman> Question: will each official Ubuntu derivative have it's own start page?
[22:29] <risbac> you add it to your Evolution/GoogleCal/whatever?
[22:29] <newz2000> yman: no, probably not
[22:30] <yman> not even the same one with a unique theme?
[22:30] <risbac> put them on a google calendar, and people can subscribe to it, with the reminders and all the cool stuffs from their agenda
[22:30] <newz2000> no variance
[22:30] <vbabiy> okay guys I got to run, it was nice talk to everyone and hope to talk again soon.
[22:30] <newz2000> yman: all firefox users
[22:30] <risbac> bye vbabiy!
[22:30] <newz2000> bye vbabiy, thanks for coming
[22:30] <pep> bye
[22:30] <newz2000> yman: konq and other browsers users don't see it
[22:31] <yman> Why not?
[22:31]  * mase_desktop is on konq
[22:31] <Volans> bye vbabiy
[22:31] <newz2000> its set by the ubufox extension
[22:32] <yman> So all the web customization stuff on the client side only expresses itself through the FF extension?
[22:32] <pep> well we can't alter FF :)
[22:32] <newz2000> yman: yes, basically (as I understand it)
[22:32] <pep> as in FF itself :)
[22:32] <yman> What does Konq display by default, then?
[22:32] <pep> a KDE home page type thing
[22:33] <pep> because it is a file browser too
[22:33] <risbac> Matt, there is no ical calendar published for Ubuntu anywhere?
[22:33] <yman> Oh. I forgot about that.
[22:33] <newz2000> risbac: I don't know, maybe evolution
[22:34] <newz2000> I'll bet there is
[22:34] <risbac> no no, I mean a calendar everybody can subscribe to?
[22:34] <yman> But by Intrepid KDE4.1 should be the default, right?
[22:34] <Volans> newz2000: we can use the meeting as test for the countdown banner ;)
[22:34] <newz2000> I don't know what tools are available for this, I just know this is a bit of a hassle
[22:34] <Volans> using the countdown banner as a countdown for the next meeting :)
[22:34] <yman> And there Konq is, methinks, mainly meant as a browser.
[22:36] <mase_desktop> Konq will be used as is for kde 4, ie it retains all functionality , but there is dolphin specifically for the filemanager use case
[22:36] <ryanakca> newz2000: btw, our download page has scrolling if viewed in konqueror
[22:36] <newz2000> ryanakca: how much?
[22:36] <jmsearcy> ok guys, I'm out
[22:36] <ryanakca> newz2000: enough to chop off the alternate download box
[22:36] <yman> See ya
[22:36] <risbac> newz2000: you don't have a calendar online with all the ubuntu main events ? (like release dates, UDS, etc...)
[22:36] <Volans> ryanakca: depends on the screen resolution
[22:37] <Volans> risbac: the Frisge
[22:37] <Volans> *Fridge
[22:37] <stgraber> risbac: we have http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule and the fridge
[22:37] <Volans> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
[22:37] <risbac> I mean a standard format? :) is it Ical on the fridge?
[22:37] <risbac> something you can have in your agenda
[22:37] <newz2000> ryanakca: I wonder if it would be better to use a font-based unit of measurement for that height
[22:37] <Volans> risbac: the fridge is moving to google calendar as I know
[22:37] <risbac> i see it at the bottom!
[22:37] <newz2000> 12ems or whatever
[22:38] <risbac> newz2000: why can't we have a calendar like this? It can manage time differences i think, this way everybody would have the right time in his software
[22:38] <ryanakca> newz2000: *shrug*, possibly. But then, couldn't it outgrow the box we stick the iframe in?
[22:38] <newz2000> no, the box will grow
[22:39] <newz2000> ryanakca: konq 3 or 4?
[22:39] <ryanakca> newz2000: ok, might work, Konq 4
[22:39] <mase_desktop> so is there a list of projects from the meetings, who is doing stuff for them etc..
[22:39] <risbac> the fridge has an ical link at the bottom. it doesn't matter where it's hosted, as long as it's a standard format
[22:39] <newz2000> mase_desktop: the images anyone can do, the feature tour we'll decide this week, the start page needs another meeting
[22:40] <newz2000> and largely speaking, a successful driver will be one who can coordinate the efforts of several others, so if you like a project, feel free to volunteer for it
[22:40] <mase_desktop> newz2000: so nothing really code / system centric ?
[22:41] <mase_desktop> ical thing works great with korganizer
[22:41] <risbac> ical things work great with most softwares :)
[22:41] <newz2000> mase_desktop: I'm not sure I understand the question
[22:42] <mase_desktop> newz2000: is there likely to be anything that requires programming at this stage or is it maily html / graphics ?
[22:42] <mase_desktop> mainly*
[22:43] <newz2000> the feature tour will be ajaxy seems to be the consensus
[22:43] <newz2000> so I expect a good bit of code to do that
[22:43] <newz2000> it will also be a technical challenge to make it glitzy for users with js turned on and accessible for users without
[22:45] <mase_desktop> that will be nice. as i turn javascript off by default myself :)
[22:45] <ubris> without knowing exact details, some libraries abstract all this away for you pretty well I'm told
[22:45] <mase_desktop> i like when sites don't 'require' javascript
[22:45] <ubris> me too
[22:45] <ubris> or rather I loathe it when they do :~)
[22:46] <mase_desktop> does anyone know a good library that works when the content type is application/xml+xhtml ?
[22:46] <mase_desktop> not just tag soup
[22:47] <newz2000> ryanakca: so is the download page really targetted at users already using konq? :-)
[22:48] <mase_desktop> newz2000: which page is this ? http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download doesn't scroll for me
[22:48] <mase_desktop> with kde 3.5.9
[22:48] <pep> wow
[22:48] <newz2000> mase_desktop: kubuntu.org
[22:48] <mase_desktop> ah..
[22:48] <newz2000> ryanakca: I get a plain white page for http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download
[22:48] <newz2000> no content
[22:49] <ryanakca> newz2000: well, we're Kubuntu, we target ourselves to KDE users :)
[22:49] <mase_desktop> the download link on the front page doesn't even work for me
[22:49] <ryanakca> newz2000: strange, just a sec
[22:49] <mase_desktop> the button anyway
[22:49] <mase_desktop> the "free download' unless thats not meant as  a link
[22:49] <Volans> the top banner is too big
[22:50] <mase_desktop> http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu that doesn't horizontally scroll for me
[22:50] <ryanakca> newz2000: takes a while to connect to www.ubuntu.com
[22:50] <mase_desktop> and the window size is less that 800
[22:50] <ryanakca> Volans: subscribed to kubuntu-devel?
[22:50] <pep> I might have missed it, but who is driver for the startpage?
[22:51] <newz2000> pep: we're going to have another meeting to clarify the goals for that one
[22:51] <pep> ok
[22:51] <pep> good
[22:51] <Volans> ryanakca: no
[22:51] <pep> and the revenue we get from google, is it a lot?
[22:51] <newz2000> when I view source with konq it opens the page in openoffice
[22:51] <newz2000> pep: I don't know actually
[22:51] <pep> to know how much this should weigh in my equation
[22:52] <pep> we should know
[22:52] <ryanakca> Volans: If you feel like subscribing, I'll be firing off an email soon, your input would be interesting
[22:52] <Volans> newz2000: what do you think about custom google search for the start page?
[22:52] <pep> if we want to keep the user at every price to use its search or if we can derive a bit..
[22:52] <newz2000> Volans: can you elaborate (it means several things to me)
[22:52] <pep> yes
[22:53] <newz2000> pep: not keep the user at every cost
[22:53] <newz2000> Power users probably already have a favorite
[22:53] <Volans> newz2000: read the comment on my proposal in the IntrepidStartPage wiki page
[22:53] <pep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage
[22:54] <Volans> ryanakca: I'm a gnome user, I have only see the http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download and http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download pages and see the differences, I think that the big top banner is mostly empty and too high
[22:54] <newz2000> Volans: I'm not sure. I like the idea of customizing it for each locale, but when I talked to Google they said I had to choose US or UK
[22:55] <Volans> newz2000: I don't mean the google server... I mean a real customized google search
[22:55] <Volans> let me find the link
[22:55] <pep> we could simply use the site:http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org in the search (example for french)
[22:55] <ryanakca> Volans: that top banner is going to go, or at least be changed
[22:55] <pep> but that's kind of not nice
[22:56] <pep> (actually forget that :-)
[22:56] <newz2000> mase_desktop: were you the one who investigated the build script for the start page?
[22:57] <pep> I think the words "welcome" are good the first time you open it up, but after that they loose their sense...
[22:57] <pep> but that was already said
[22:57] <mase_desktop> newz2000: no that wasn't me.
[22:57] <Volans> newz2000: I have made this one yesterday: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=008949059787096431823:nzsphralfw4 it search in all the resources of the Italian ubuntu community and you can search only in the doc, wiki, forum and website at your choice
[22:57] <Volans> the search form can be put in every site
[22:57] <newz2000> ok, cse
[22:58] <newz2000> the problem with that is it searches a limited subset of content, for example, just ubuntu.com
[22:58] <newz2000> and that's going to quickly irritate users
[22:58] <newz2000> we want them to search for everything
[22:58] <Volans> and for the resuts there are 3 possibilities: a google hosted page, like normal google, a self hosted page with simple output; a fully customizable page with google's API
[22:58] <mase_desktop> newz2000: i was talking to you about the navigation
[22:58] <mase_desktop> but i don't think thats what your talking about
[22:59] <newz2000> ok. Trying to think of coding work available. The build script is a mess. :-/
[22:59] <Volans> newz2000: I think that with the api we can put behind the radioboxes to esearch in the web, the english ubuntu world and the localized ubuntu world
[22:59] <pep> A solution would be one search fiel with several buttons "search web" "search ubuntu documentations" "search ubuntu related forums"
[22:59] <Volans> but I will investigate for that
[22:59] <mase_desktop> newz2000: i am more than happy to help out if someone hasn't already stepped up
[22:59] <newz2000> mase_desktop: do you like unicode?
[23:00] <newz2000> mwa ha ha ha
[23:00]  * newz2000 tries at an evil laugh
[23:00] <Volans> pep, newz2000, or simply we can put multiple forms for different search and show one at a time with a sort of tabs at the top or a similar radiobox
[23:00] <mase_desktop> newz2000: yeh actually just been doing a whole bunch of internationalizations
[23:00] <mase_desktop> so i don't mind
[23:00] <newz2000> you should check out the build script for the current start page
[23:00] <mase_desktop> where is this located, launchpad /
[23:00] <mase_desktop> ?
[23:00] <pep> shouldn't get too complicated whatever we do...
[23:01] <newz2000> mase_desktop: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~newz/ubuntu-website/start-page
[23:01] <newz2000> mase_desktop: I hope you can see from the code that I attempted to do the right thing and out of frustration and time crunch had to resort to ickyness
[23:02] <newz2000> I even hounded the developer of BeautifulSoup (who happens to be a canonical employee) without success
[23:02] <mase_desktop> heh i think everyone has been in that situation before
[23:02] <newz2000> I think it may be that one of the documents is not unicode and we may need to file a bug against it
[23:03] <newz2000> but I think you'll be struck by the though, "there must be a better way to do this..."
[23:03] <mase_desktop> newz2000: so this build script makes the ubuntu homepage in different languages ?
[23:03] <newz2000> yes, correct
[23:04] <mase_desktop> ok, no worries
[23:04] <newz2000> you run it from the project dir as ./locailze.py
[23:04] <Volans> newz2000: see some example of Google custom search with the API here http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxsearch/samples.html#_the-basics_
[23:04] <mase_desktop> so your using beautiful soup as the util to convert from one charset to the other ?
[23:04] <newz2000> Volans: launchpad also uses it for its search
[23:05] <newz2000> so there's no ads in the cse using the api?
[23:05] <mase_desktop> newz2000: you mind if i do this in xslt ?
[23:06] <newz2000> no, I don't mind at all
[23:06] <Volans> I think with the API in the overlay mode no, with the iframe and google hosted page yes
[23:06] <Volans> Ubuntu is a no-profit organization?
[23:06] <newz2000> hmm. Good question.
[23:06] <Volans> because in this case you can tell google to not show the ads
[23:07] <pep> ah
[23:07] <Volans> no money but also no ads for the users
[23:07] <pep> google can be talked with
[23:07] <newz2000> we want the ads
[23:07] <newz2000> :-)
[23:07] <pep> I mean this is ubuntu :) we can discuss with thel
[23:07] <pep> them*
[23:07] <newz2000> yes, I've been on the phone many times with them
[23:07] <pep> sure
[23:08] <newz2000> Interestingly enough, when you talk to them about this feature you don't get to mountain view, you get to new york and the caller id says doubleclick
[23:09] <pep> huh?
[23:09] <pep> I didn't understand that
[23:09] <Volans> LOL
[23:09] <pep> you don't get to mountain view?  the caller id says doubleclick?
[23:10] <newz2000> if you talk to Google about ads and cse you don't talk to the google guys in Mountain View CA, you instead talk to guys from "doubleclick" in New York.
[23:11] <pep> Oh right!
[23:11] <pep> i see
[23:11] <stgraber> newz2000: Doubleclick is © 2008 Google Inc. All Rights Reserved. So that actually makes sense
[23:12] <pep> :)
[23:12] <pep> newz2000: I suppose you know this? http://consortiumlibrary.org/staff/gibbs/images/aussie_windaz1.jpg :)
[23:12] <pep> it matches your nick perfectly, even the right number ;)
[23:13] <pep> Ok, it's for australia, but still :)
[23:13] <newz2000> first I've seen it. Nice stuff.
[23:14] <pep> google has acquired doubleclick
[23:14] <pep> http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20080311_doubleclick.html
[23:18] <twilight> thanks for the good meeting guys, I've to go :) 'night all
[23:31] <mase_desktop> newz2000: i'll have this build script working for tonight, tomorrow at the latest.
[23:32] <mase_desktop> newz2000: gotta go to work now
[23:32] <newz2000> ok, have a nice day mase_desktop
[23:32] <newz2000> thanks for your help
[23:32] <mase_desktop> np, glad i can do something