[02:10] <Volans> Now I go... great meeting :) see you tomorrow
[11:50] <mase_desktop> ping newz2000
[14:34] <newz2000> mase_desktop: hey
[15:10] <mase_desktop> newz2000:  hey. looked at the build script. i have 1 solution which i like , which is to make all the language files well formed and transform with an xsl stylesheet, however i feel its over engineering the problem.
[15:10] <mase_desktop> you can also add
[15:10] <mase_desktop> cmd = "iconv -f iso8859-1 -t utf-8 -o %s %s"
[15:11] <mase_desktop>    os.system( cmd )
[15:11] <mase_desktop> to the bottom of your script
[15:11] <mase_desktop> and that works too :)
[15:11] <newz2000> oh really? and you ran it and it worked ok?
[15:11] <mase_desktop> erm.. well..what wasn't working before, just the utf-8 thing
[15:12] <mase_desktop> or did i miss something ?
[15:13] <newz2000> I just felt like the solution was very inelegant. For example, it depends on each document being pretty much exactly the same except for translated text
[15:15] <newz2000> I've never used iconv before
[15:15] <newz2000> this converts from iso8859-1 to utf-8?
[15:15] <mase_desktop> yep
[15:16] <newz2000> aaahhh. Nice. I wonder if it works on cp1252
[15:16] <mase_desktop> yeh
[15:16] <mase_desktop> it does
[15:16] <mase_desktop> :)
[15:16] <newz2000> oooh, I wish I'd known about this before
[15:16] <mase_desktop> yeh me too, i only just learned a few weeks back
[15:16] <mase_desktop> and if you get errors
[15:16] <mase_desktop> it means the original isn't what you thought it  was
[15:17] <mase_desktop> not sure that command is correct, the python bit. %s isn't what i thought it was
[15:17] <newz2000> that's kind of the problem in this instance...
[15:17] <mase_desktop> but since you program in python i'm sure you worked that out already
[15:17] <newz2000> we've got at least one file that is in an unknown encoding
[15:18] <mase_desktop> ahhh
[15:18] <mase_desktop> that makes it hard
[15:18] <mase_desktop> b/c afaik you can't tell what encoding it is, you can guess, but aside from working out if it's 8bit or not
[15:18] <mase_desktop> you don't know without looking at it
[15:19] <mase_desktop> because when you get byte order marks, they could be actual characters
[15:19] <mase_desktop> in a different character encoding
[15:19] <mase_desktop> at least that is how i understand it
[15:20] <newz2000> sounds like you understand this far more than I do
[15:20] <mase_desktop> and a decimal number could be valid in more than 1 character set
[15:20] <mase_desktop> but they might be different characters
[15:20] <mase_desktop> so you only know if its the right  character
[15:20] <mase_desktop> if you know your meant to be looking at a grave and you see an inflection
[15:21] <mase_desktop> but yeh i'm not really an expert
[15:21] <mase_desktop> at least not atm.
[15:21] <mase_desktop> so if i make those language files well formed xml, will they stay that way
[15:21] <mase_desktop> or do normal humans edit these ?
[15:22] <newz2000> humans edit them unfortunately
[15:22] <newz2000> what we probably need to do is file bugs against each that is not well formed
[15:22] <newz2000> and probably against any that aren't utf-8
[15:22] <newz2000> or are at least a diff charset then they're advertised as
[15:22] <mase_desktop> do they get edited via teh web ?
[15:22] <newz2000> I don't think so
[15:23] <newz2000> check this out: iconv -f iso8859-1 -t utf8  < source/index.html.ka
[15:23] <newz2000> assuming your in the project folder for the start page
[15:23] <newz2000> oh
[15:23] <newz2000> well, that's not actually two interesting because its not 8859-1
[15:23] <newz2000> ^too interesting
[15:24] <newz2000> never mind. :-)
[15:24] <mase_desktop> heh. do these get edited by ubuntu systems ?
[15:24] <newz2000> well, volunteers create/edit these, presumably using ubuntu but no guarantees
[15:25]  * pep wonders if you are using rosetta
[15:25] <mase_desktop> do they get added to vcs ?
[15:25] <newz2000> the doc team is in charge of these, and presumably they don't
[15:25] <newz2000> I understand its difficult to edit large text strings in rosetta
[15:25] <mase_desktop> by the people
[15:25] <newz2000> mase_desktop: yes, I think so
[15:25] <mase_desktop> w00t!
[15:25] <pep> uhu...
[15:25] <mase_desktop> we have a yes answer
[15:26] <mase_desktop> ok, does bzr have hooks like svn ?
[15:26] <newz2000> yes
[15:26] <newz2000> kind of
[15:26] <newz2000> (client side)
[15:27] <newz2000> mase_desktop: this is the one:
[15:27] <newz2000> iconv -f utf-8 -t utf8  < source/index.html.gl
[15:27] <mase_desktop> ok. can we add a hook, when they commit, it does iconv -f utf-8 -t utf-8 and if that generates errors then we say , it's prolly not utf-8, look at the system $LANG, does that give any information
[15:27] <mase_desktop> try and convert
[15:27] <mase_desktop> otherwise prompt
[15:27] <mase_desktop> and say, please save this as utf-8 or tell me what charset your using
[15:27] <newz2000> that may be a challenge, because it would mean distributing a plugin to all users who translate
[15:28] <mase_desktop> hmm so that doesn't get added to the checkout ?
[15:28] <newz2000> no, unfortunatley, each user has to install it in their ~/.bzr folder
[15:29] <mase_desktop> so iconv -f utf-8 -t utf8  < source/index.html.gl was meant to generate an error ?
[15:29] <mase_desktop> hmm makes this hard..
[15:29] <mase_desktop> how do we get it to a known state ?
[15:29] <mase_desktop> and keep it that way
[15:29] <newz2000> this is the file that we have no clue what encoding it is in
[15:30] <newz2000> unless we read the source and see it is 8859-1
[15:30]  * newz2000 smacks head
[15:30] <mase_desktop> well isn't it utf-8 then ?
[15:30] <mase_desktop> if it works without errors
[15:30] <mase_desktop> or at least its likely to be utf-8
[15:30] <newz2000> mase_desktop: when you tried to validate, did all of them give you errors or just certain ones?
[15:32] <mase_desktop> newz2000: only tried with 3 so not sure about them all. I'm on a slackware system which doesn't have bzr so i was being slack and only grabbed those
[15:32] <mase_desktop> but even the template wasn't well formed
[15:33] <mase_desktop> was missing trailing /> for img elements
[15:33] <newz2000> ooh, and it's got an xhtml doctype too
[15:33] <newz2000> shame on me
[15:34] <newz2000> oh, the images copied from the google gadget (we started out with gadgets then replaced them)
[15:34] <mase_desktop> meh, this will solve one of the bugs on lp anyway .
[15:34] <mase_desktop> some dude complaining about validity
[15:34] <mase_desktop> :)
[15:34] <newz2000> those guys bug me.
[15:35] <mase_desktop> i can kind of understand the desire but they could at least submit a patch :0
[15:35] <newz2000> hah - good point
[15:36] <mase_desktop> anways i have a well formed template here and also  i am prepared to make the rest well formed etc.. in order to make it more flexible
[15:36] <newz2000> so your validation errors, are they malformed xml errors or are they invalid chars?
[15:37] <mase_desktop> erm invalid xml and also because i am trying to read it as xml it complains about the entities. But i can solve that i think
[15:37] <mase_desktop> by running in validation mode
[15:37] <mase_desktop> so it uses the dtd
[15:38] <mase_desktop> yeh i don't know how to go about getting well formed xml if we can't ask them to use say, conglomerate or something like that
[15:38] <mase_desktop> or even a web based xml editor
[15:38] <newz2000> mase_desktop: is this something you enjoy doing? What I mean is, would you be willing to work with the docteam to get this updated and corrected in their vcs so that all future versions are valid utf-8 xml?
[15:38] <mase_desktop> or something like svn hooks
[15:39] <newz2000> wait
[15:39] <mase_desktop> newz2000: i don't enjoy doing it, i think its important though and i would be willing to yes
[15:39] <newz2000> acutally, before we do that we should wait for our next meeting
[15:39] <newz2000> we may be asking them for far more than this, and it would be a shame to have them change their process for well-formedness and then change it again because we want something diff
[15:40] <mase_desktop> yeh no worries. I'm happy to help however you see fit.
[15:41] <newz2000> I agree with some points made that the page has too much text for anyone who's seen the page more than once, so we may be asking them to summarize it into a paragraph.
[15:41] <newz2000> If we do that, then we should change their process to also ensure their text is well formed
[15:41] <newz2000> mase_desktop: what xsl tool are you using? xalan?
[15:42] <mase_desktop> newz2000: libxsl
[15:42] <mase_desktop> xsltproc
[15:42] <newz2000> oh, haven't tried it yet
[15:42] <mase_desktop> comes with almost every distro
[15:42] <mase_desktop> and has python ,php, perl, ruby bindings
[15:42] <mase_desktop> and its fast!
[15:42] <newz2000> oh, then I probably hve used and didn't know it
[15:43] <mase_desktop> as in i do dynamic xslt on webpages type fast
[15:44] <newz2000> mase_desktop: ok, thanks for your probing and for the tip with iconv. That will be a huge benefit.
[15:45] <newz2000> We'll hold on the next step until we have our meeting
[15:45] <newz2000> I hate making people do any more work the necessary
[15:46] <mase_desktop> yeh thats understandable, esp when people are volunteering
[15:46] <newz2000> people like you. :-)
[15:46] <mase_desktop> yeh but i like pain! =)
[15:47] <pep> :)
[15:47] <pep> don't we all ;)
[15:47]  * newz2000 makes note of that
[15:47] <mase_desktop> yeh why else would we do it
[16:20] <vbabiy> Hey how are you guys
[16:20] <pep> vbabiy: Fine thank you. And you?
[16:21] <vbabiy> good, just anther day :)
[16:22] <newz2000> howdy
[16:23] <pep> I'm being forced to watch a dumb and irrealistic hacker movie by my godson
[16:23] <pep> but apart from that everything is ok ;)
[16:26] <mase_slapt> bah which one ?
[16:26] <mase_slapt>  i love hackers
[16:26] <mase_slapt> you have the whole virtual world
[16:26] <mase_slapt> and the dude on a skateboard
[16:26] <mase_slapt> people wearing leopard print
[16:26] <mase_slapt> what more could you want
[16:27] <newz2000> a swimming pool on the roof?
[16:27] <mase_slapt> haha
[16:27] <pep> it's wargames 3 I think
[16:27] <pep> or 2
[16:27] <mase_slapt> yikes didn't know they made more than one
[16:27] <newz2000> me either
[16:27] <pep> neither did I till today
[16:28] <newz2000> everything is a sequel these days. :-(
[16:28] <pep> gouvernments always look so ridiculous in these movies :)
[16:41] <vbabiy> newz2000: do we have screen res we are developing for?
[16:41] <newz2000> vbabiy: for the start page?
[16:41] <vbabiy> no feature tour
[16:41] <newz2000> oh, yes...
[16:41] <vbabiy> I am sticking with that
[16:41] <vbabiy> I am trying to look
[16:42] <vbabiy> and a different design
[16:42] <newz2000> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/projects/ubuntu-layout-guide.png is my guide, but its ok to deviate for this project
[16:42] <vbabiy> newz2000: thanks
[16:42] <newz2000> I think it's reasonable to target browser windows between 850 and 950px wide
[16:43] <vbabiy> yeah, I agree
[16:59] <pep> phew, I think I'm going to give my godson an introduction to networking and IT security... the dude in the movie is hacking into CIA as if it was a wifi -.-'
[17:07] <mase_slapt> have you seen NCIS ?
[17:08] <pep> yes it's a series right?
[17:08] <mase_slapt> yeh, those machines are awesom
[17:08] <mase_slapt> +e
[17:09] <mase_slapt> match dna in like a second
[17:09] <pep> hehe
[17:09] <pep> better than boinc ;)
[17:32] <mase_slapt> night all
[19:13] <vbabiy> Hey any one around?
[19:13] <vbabiy> if so what do you guys think of this so far http://www.vitalysblog.com/temp/
[19:14] <pep> flashy :)
[19:15] <unaffiliate> well good usage of big fonts
[19:15] <unaffiliate> :>
[19:21] <vbabiy> I am not sure what I want do in the center yet
[19:21] <newz2000> bright and colorful
[19:24] <unafiliated> vbabiy : you can put some sort of presentation which show the more reliability , flexibility and security feature in new ubuntu 8.10
[19:24] <unafiliated> :)
[19:25] <vbabiy> unafiliated: yeah, thats a good Idea I will have to play with it later
[19:25] <unafiliated> :>
[19:52] <newz2000> ok, I'll give it a shot too, since so many others are...
[19:52] <newz2000> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/projects/ft810/featuretour.png (change ext to svg for my source)
[19:57] <vbabiy> newz2000: I like the switch of screen hots
[19:57] <vbabiy> shots
[20:01] <newz2000> just a quick sketch... the bottom items are groups of screenshots, so one page is productivity, another page is entertainment, and each page has multiple screenshots (shown as bullet points on the right, though that doesn't scale well)
[20:46] <vbabiy> newz2000: take a look new changes http://www.vitalysblog.com/temp/
[20:46] <vbabiy> newz2000: what do you think
[20:46] <vbabiy> I know the images are not 100%, I just have more time to mess with it
[20:48] <newz2000> so do the left and right portions signify next/prev images?
[20:50] <vbabiy> newz2000: do you mean to kinda have the box rotate
[20:51] <newz2000> what is that thingy called... a carousel?
[20:51] <vbabiy> I have thought of that but it will be really had to get it right in SJ
[20:51] <vbabiy> JS
[20:53] <newz2000> vbabiy: so is this a full-width image showing three screenshots at once?
[20:54] <vbabiy> newz2000: we could try to get that to work
[20:54] <vbabiy> it will take a lot of playing to get that to work correct in js
[20:55] <newz2000> http://www.ubuntustory.com/ has something like that, though it's going quite slow at the moment
[20:56] <vbabiy> newz2000: wow thats a nice stie
[20:56] <vbabiy> site
[20:58] <newz2000> did you see the slider below the carousel? move it left to right
[20:59] <newz2000> its a little glitchy
[20:59] <newz2000> and I'm not suggesting we do this
[20:59] <newz2000> but it is possible
[21:00] <vbabiy> yeah, that is really nice
[21:00] <vbabiy> I think we could do this
[21:00] <newz2000> ﻿﻿regarding your design...
[21:00] <newz2000> I feel like there's a lot of visual embellishment that draws your eye away from the content - for example, the color and knockout on the logo on the top left, the glass effect on the yellow box and the high brightness color
[21:01] <newz2000> I would suggest adopting the idea that less is more. Focus on the content.
[21:01] <newz2000> as a matter of fact, I'm not big on full-desktop screenshots personally. I think it's better to zoom in on the features we're highlighting
[21:01] <newz2000> though there does need to be some full shots
[21:03] <vbabiy> yeah, full shot screen shots are not the way to go
[21:03] <vbabiy> you can't get them big enough to show enough details
[21:03] <newz2000> yeah
[21:04] <vbabiy> I really do like the way ubuntu story did the nav
[21:05] <newz2000> yeah, I'm curious how they did that shine effect with the rays of light coming out of the map
[21:07] <vbabiy> newz2000: I can do that in Photoshop not the gimp :)
[21:07] <vbabiy> But for this project I am staying away from photoshop
[21:13] <vbabiy> man getting a awesome design is hard