[02:04] <Hellow> Hello everyone
[02:05] <Hellow> i made a sort of "stub" entry for the Home Folder with a "Needs Love" banner at the top here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HomeFolder. If you want to take a shot at completing it, feel free to do so.
[08:54] <meoblast001> hello
[08:55] <meoblast001> i made a screencast that is sort of a work in progress
[08:55] <meoblast001> i made part 1
[08:55] <meoblast001> but there are some problems
[08:55] <meoblast001> i dont know of any other recording programs that "just work" other than recordmydesktop
[08:56] <meoblast001> and that writes to ogg
[08:56] <meoblast001> nevertheless
[08:56] <meoblast001> i think it would be possible to convert this to other formats without much quality loss
[08:56] <meoblast001> i have a link to a low resolution copy of my video
[08:56] <meoblast001> http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/3/19/904700/Things_Not_to_Do_in_Ubuntu_Pt1.ogg
[08:57] <meoblast001> if you like it and want the higher resolution, contact me either in here or by my email
[08:57] <meoblast001> meoblast@aol.com
[09:00] <meoblast001> i didnt do any beginning slides or exit slides, but if you want me to, i can add them
[09:10] <meoblast001> i'll be on tommorro if you need to contact me
[10:36] <jonasbjo1k> hello!
[11:34] <jonasbjo1k> anyone know how to get fop working in Ubuntu?
[11:39] <duncan-nz> fop = Fraternal Order of Police?
[11:39] <duncan-nz> (that means I have no idea)
[13:33] <wallan1> new sentence for https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation: 'If you would like to contribute to these pages, why not check out the WikiToDo and WikiTeam pages?'
[13:33] <wallan1> what do people think?
[13:35] <duncan-nz> well, I like the idea. More hands make easy work and all. Especially if we have a good set of templates and so on...
[13:37] <wallan1> a different phrasing: 'If you want to contribute to these pages, the WikiToDo and WikiTeam pages are a good place to start.'
[13:43] <duncan-nz> wallan1, do you have an opinion on how much SebPages should be used?
[13:43] <duncan-nz> on the wiki I mean.
[13:44] <wallan1> duncan-nz: SubPages, you mean?
[13:44] <duncan-nz> yes
[13:46] <wallan1> not really. one thing i have wondered about in the past is how discussions should be handled. should they always be on a subpage, and if so, what should they be called? /Talk? /Discussion?
[13:50] <duncan-nz> I like that - why didn't I think of that. I think we should just do that. Decide if it's /Talk (like on wikipedia) on /Discussion
[13:50] <wallan1> yeah, i think it's good to have a standard name
[13:57] <duncan-nz> I guess it's best if it's CamelCase, maybe PageTalk ?
[15:00] <wallan1> i think /discussion is maybe better than /talk - the latter seems a bit vague
[15:02] <duncan-nz> Not /PageDiscussion ? It'd be easier to type (yawn)
[15:02] <duncan-nz> ... yes talk is a bit vague.
[15:02] <duncan-nz> ... yes 'talk' is a bit vague.
[15:02] <wallan1> yeah, PageDiscussion sounds good
[15:04] <duncan-nz> But is it wise to start making subpages all over the place?
[15:04] <duncan-nz> that's the next issue.
[15:05] <duncan-nz> I like them and think it gives structure, but some do not.
[15:05] <Old_Soldier> duncan-nz: i think talk pages should be "tabbed" but not created until someone writes on them
[15:05] <Old_Soldier> just my 2 cents from working on other wikis in the past
[15:05] <duncan-nz> sure, that's easy to do
[15:06] <wallan1> it might not be very productive to discuss subpages in general - it's better to talk about specific pages or types of pages
[15:06] <duncan-nz> well, what about making subpages of /Applications then. that's what Allan and I are working on.
[15:07] <duncan-nz> what do you think are the issues with subpages Old_Soldier ?
[15:07] <duncan-nz> this is not a new issue, but I've never felt I've got a clear picture of why we don't use them on http://help.ubuntu.com/
[15:08] <Old_Soldier> genrally i think subpages are useful for team communication. I used them extensovely when I worked on the team wikis at Gameforge. but in a open wiki they also can become confusing and spam filled
[15:08] <Old_Soldier> ack i need coffee. too many typos there
[15:10] <Old_Soldier> is it a moin issue duncan, or just something that was decided upon by an admin in the past?
[15:10] <duncan-nz> I don't know. But I feel like each time I've tried to establish a page/subpage structure I get told ''that's not how we do things here''
[15:11] <duncan-nz> I might be wrong, we can just thrash out some guidelines now and try to implement them. This is in the context of this brand new project: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApplicationsDocumentationGuide
[15:12] <duncan-nz> (I love Wikibooks for structured content, because of it's inherent structure by the way)
[15:13] <wallan1> duncan-nz: what kind of content do you plan to put in that page?
[15:13] <duncan-nz> I think software documentation by it's nature has several structures to choose between. By repository, menu position, task to name a few.
[15:14] <duncan-nz> wallan1, which one?
[15:14] <wallan1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApplicationsDocumentationGuide
[15:14] <Old_Soldier> i agree duncan. I'm not against subpages. "talk" and discussion' pages are really useful for collaboaration
[15:14] <duncan-nz> oh, sorry wrong link...
[15:14] <duncan-nz> I meant this project: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Applications/ProjectHome
[15:15] <duncan-nz> as for ApplicationsDocumentationGuide I thought it could have, well I'll paste from the page...

[15:15] <duncan-nz> This page will be an extension to WikiGuide specific to documenting applications. For now please follow the WikiGuide.
[15:15] <duncan-nz> There is a discussion started on making some application documentation templates, you'll find some specific ideas there on how to format new pages and improve existing ones.

[15:16] <wallan1> ok, we should link to the ApplicationsDocumentationGuide from the WikiGuide
[15:17] <duncan-nz> So template(s) for application documentation. If you look around now we have pages based on all kind of structure. "Apps I like", "Alternatives to...", "My uncle says ... is great" and so on.
[15:17] <duncan-nz> wallan1, but there nothing there yet.
[15:17] <duncan-nz> you decide.
[15:17] <wallan1> well, when there's something on there: ;)
[15:18] <duncan-nz> For example, all the pages on WikiGuide are SubPages
[15:19] <wallan1> yeah, i think that's appropriate use of subpages
[15:19] <duncan-nz> wallan1, you're completely right. we should scrap the page I made and make a section of the WikiGuide instead.
[15:19] <duncan-nz> So what about these:...
[15:20] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Default
[15:20] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/SoftwareAll
[15:20] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/Default
[15:20] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/All
[15:20] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoMain/Internet/Firefox
[15:21] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoRestricted/SoftwareAll
[15:21] <duncan-nz> * /Applications/RepoRestricted/Graphic/XPdf (not sure that's in restricted but...)
[15:21] <wallan1> i'm not sure about using that model for individual application pages... firefox should be ~/Firefox, imo
[15:22] <duncan-nz> and so on.
[15:22] <wallan1> but i can see the value in having an applications guide structured in that way
[15:22] <wallan1> one question - how does this relate to how you define an application?
[15:22] <wallan1> for example - where would Firestarter go?
[15:23] <duncan-nz> For now I haven't tried to answer that. If one day everything which turns up in the Main Menu is documented then the question can be asked again. But I don't think there is a definative answer.
[15:23] <duncan-nz> I guess that's why Launchpad calls then projects.
[15:24] <duncan-nz> [then = them]
[15:24] <duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, ?
[15:42] <Old_Soldier> sup duncan-nz ? I was afk for a little while
[16:08] <duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, I was just wondering what you thought of our discussion on structure of subpages.
[16:09] <Old_Soldier> i think that the subpage hierarchy works well for organization. i like you used repo in the structure since apps change menus often
[16:11] <duncan-nz> would that be a useful way to organise documentation?
[16:12] <mpt> I have yet to meet anyone who actually wants "documentation" :-)
[16:13] <mpt> People want answers to their questions
[16:13] <Old_Soldier> lol that is si true mpt!
[16:13] <duncan-nz> hi matthew.
[16:14] <mpt> hello hello
[16:14] <duncan-nz> Well, if anyone can show me an organisational chart of questions we can use that...
[16:14] <Old_Soldier> duncan. wiki organization is always a bone of contnetion
[16:15] <mpt> duncan-nz, designing the chart is part of the challenge. Card-sorting is one way to do it.
[16:15] <duncan-nz> Old_Soldier, i know
[16:15] <Old_Soldier> contention. there are lots of arguments for different "flows"
[16:15] <mpt> Here's the organization that Microsoft uses: http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/
[16:16] <duncan-nz> I get worried if you quote microsoft on the issue of customer support.
[16:16] <duncan-nz> but i will look
[16:16] <mpt> And here's the organization that Apple uses: http://www.apple.com/support/leopard/
[16:17] <mpt> (ugh, I can hardly read that grey-on-black)
[16:17] <Old_Soldier> lol. actually though with all their faults. MS has good gui and help organzation
[16:18] <duncan-nz> I've never once solved a problem with windows by reading their documentation. I have though with Ubuntu.
[16:18] <mpt> And here's a gallery of nearly 700 help systems: http://www.g2meyer.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2878
[16:18] <mpt> (those are locally-installed ones, though, not Web sites)
[16:19] <mpt> One method of deciding on categories for help pages is card sorting: http://www.infodesign.com.au/usabilityresources/design/cardsorting.asp
[16:20] <duncan-nz> I agree that some people want to solve a question. But when I a.) have a problem with a specific application or b.) want to just look around at what's available then: headings like "Why did my widget stop wizzing..." are not helpful
[16:20] <mpt> Right, so there are broad categories of help pages
[16:20] <mpt> * "I have problem X"
[16:20] <mpt> * "How do I do Y"
[16:21] <mpt> * "Give me a quick overview of feature Z" (less common)
[16:21] <duncan-nz> That would require a million clicks before I found out why the arrow to the right of the text field for VoIP phone numbers in evolution's contacts doesn't work.
[16:22] <mpt> sommer, search is also important.
[16:22] <mpt> erg
[16:22] <mpt> *So*, search is also important.
[16:22] <duncan-nz> For that type of question I want 'Internet' > 'Mail' > 'Contact'
[16:22] <mpt> And if searching for "voip arrow doesn't work" in Evolution's help doesn't return an appropriate page as the first result, report a bug that it should.
[16:23] <duncan-nz> (I have)
[16:23] <Old_Soldier> search is critical. google search is so much better than the wiki serach though :/
[16:23] <Old_Soldier> doc search seems much better over the past couple releases
[16:23] <duncan-nz> What about making more use of the MoinMoin Categories as 'tags'?
[16:24] <duncan-nz> Then I could better accept a flat wikipage structure. A CategoryMainRepo for example so I can see pages about software in Main.
[16:25] <duncan-nz> and CategoryMenuInternet for software found under the Internet part of the main menu.
[16:25] <duncan-nz> I think we might be finding a compromise which would solve the different ways of navigating.
[16:26] <duncan-nz> one like CategoryHowtoNetwork for network related pages
[16:26] <duncan-nz> is this making any sense?
[16:27] <Old_Soldier>  yeah it makes sense to me. I do see a potential issue  with that : category bloat
[16:27] <duncan-nz> (CategoryMainRepo should be CategoryRepoMain for alphabetisation)
[16:28] <duncan-nz> what is category bloat? how can that cause problems?
[16:29] <duncan-nz> every now and then there is a bit of duplication requiring cleanup - but the cleanup is easy to track because it's there's a category page for all the relevant pages.
[16:29] <Old_Soldier> too many categories means more chance of mis filing and creates more load on the server come search time
[16:29] <duncan-nz> mis filing! at the moment there is _no_ filing!
[16:30] <duncan-nz> well, most pages outside the doc tem are not filed
[16:32] <Old_Soldier> yeah the guys from the Bt have been working hard at trying to fix that but it is difficult
[16:32] <duncan-nz> Bt?
[16:32] <Old_Soldier> beginner team
[16:33] <Old_Soldier> from the forums. a bunch have joined the doc team and wiki teams and have been working pretty hard
[16:33] <duncan-nz> The biggest help would be a default new page template with some useful comments on. We can only point people in the right direction.
[16:33] <duncan-nz> do they have a project page or something similar?
[16:34] <Old_Soldier> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development
[16:34] <Old_Soldier> is where we have been staging our efforts
[16:35] <duncan-nz> why the control "Here is where you can "lay claim" to wiki pages that you want to update or rewrite. Claimed pages will not be touched by other BT members unless the owner gives permission (say, in IRC)."
[16:35] <duncan-nz> would wikipedia have worked with that?
[16:35] <duncan-nz> sorry
[16:45] <Old_Soldier> duncan it saves  duplicated effort among the team. its an efficiency thing
[16:45] <duncan-nz> sure, but why a list and no mention on the actual page concerned?
[16:46] <duncan-nz> just a thought, that's why I've started adding a heading at the end for 'page maintainers'
[16:46] <duncan-nz> that's got me in touch with others who just happen by and want to do something on that page.
[16:47] <duncan-nz> an inclusive system instead of a membership based system if you will
[16:47] <Old_Soldier> mostly the pages we are fixing are existing pages.
[16:47] <Old_Soldier> page maintainers are great... if the actually maintain the page
[16:47] <Old_Soldier> they
[16:47] <duncan-nz> if not they'll soon get tired of being asked about the page...
[16:47] <duncan-nz> ... and remove their name
[16:48] <Old_Soldier> we try to be informal and not give the impression of being elitists lol
[16:48] <Old_Soldier> I guess thats a habit from working the forums
[16:48] <duncan-nz> so change it to = Loving this page = and then their WikiNames...
[16:49] <duncan-nz> I've made these headers: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Software/ProjectHome#Page%20banners
[16:49] <duncan-nz> maybe there's something useful in that idea?
[16:49] <Old_Soldier> mostly we are trying to work within the existing framework and not ruffle feathers. accomplishing change in an established organization is sometimes a long process
[16:50] <duncan-nz> nothing original, the idea is direct from Wikipedia.
[16:51] <Old_Soldier> hmm i think phil has some banners somewhere too. i remember a discussion on them last month
[16:51] <duncan-nz> have you not noticed how few people are actually subscribed to the pages you work on? It's easy to see which pages are being maintained and which are unloved.
[16:56] <Old_Soldier> problem being duncan-nz  is that people would rather reinvent the wheel instead of fixing a page. That and there are a lot of "one hit wonders"
[16:57] <duncan-nz> can you be more specific?
[16:57] <Old_Soldier> there has been so little long term maintenance on the wiki due to manpower shortages.
[16:57] <duncan-nz> Like that. Ok
[16:58] <Old_Soldier> lots of people just toss up a page without even checking to see if there is a page up on the topic
[16:58] <duncan-nz> not least because there is no structure to find out if ther is a page on that subject!
[16:58] <duncan-nz> ... that's what I'm on about.
[16:59] <duncan-nz> and I don't know why we're using MoinMoin...
[17:00] <Old_Soldier> i think moin isn't necessarily the best tool but its what we have
[17:01] <Old_Soldier> yeah duncan, i'm with you. Moin isn't as well developed as other wikis and that doesn't help when people are trying to add pages
[17:02] <Old_Soldier> honestly i'm on the fence, i'm almost at a point where i think that posting should be restricted. I know that defeats the whole purpose of community docs, but a temporary ban on posting by the general public would be good if we had a plan to fix the issues and were dedicated to implement the changes
[17:06] <duncan-nz> Surely the devs can implement a default template which includes help. And we need to write a macro which makes a list of new pages.
[17:09] <Old_Soldier> +1 for macros
[17:09] <Old_Soldier> and a default template for new pages would help. i think there are a couple templates out there already, but they aren't easily found
[17:12] <duncan-nz> they're not applied by default.
[17:12] <duncan-nz> see CategoryTemplate
[17:23] <Old_Soldier> i can kind of nderstand why they arent applied by default but starting a new page should be able to give you a choice of templates? well perhaps that hack would be inelegant or even not possible
[17:24] <Old_Soldier> perhaps a default page should have a link to the templares and intructions to copy and paste. approved tempaltes could be stored as imuttable pages
[17:25] <duncan-nz> I always get presented with a choice of templates, but the templates are not very relevant.
[17:33] <duncan-nz> do you know how to suppress wikimarkup?
[17:37] <Old_Soldier> no duncan i don't recall offhand how to do it, and a cursory search isn't helping. i'll google it
[17:38] <duncan-nz> found it `code to suppress`
[17:38] <duncan-nz> was not easy to find. That was my third attempt.
[17:38] <Old_Soldier> ah
[17:38] <Old_Soldier> yeah the search isnt that great in moinmoin
[18:07] <agy> Hello All - I need to perform some maintenance on the help.ubuntu.com wiki. This should only take about 15 minutes and the wiki will be placed in read-only mode for this period. The maintenance should modify any pages with doubled up 'Contents' headers in the Table of Contents and should clean up some of the code blocks to render correctly. I plan to start at 18h10 BST.
[18:10] <agy> I'm placing the help.ubuntu.com wiki in read-only mode now.
[18:12] <agy> Maintenance is complete - wiki is now read-write
[18:31] <sahil_> i was just wondering what the progress on the spanish desktop guide is
[18:33] <duncan-nz> have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareRepoDefault and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Software while I break for dinner... please review and comment.
[22:13] <wallan1> duncan-nz: ping
[22:13] <duncan-nz> hi allan
[22:13] <duncan-nz> I've been busy...
[22:14] <wallan1> hey duncan! i can see!
[22:15] <wallan1> so you've removed the applications page?
[22:24] <duncan-nz> well, emptied it. All the http://help.ubuntu.com/ and local docs use the term 'software'.
[22:25] <duncan-nz> and moved the alphabetic list of software to it's own page to make huc/community/Software free
[22:25] <duncan-nz> it has a link doesn't it?
[22:26] <wallan1> what, the alphabetical list?
[22:26] <wallan1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwareAlphabeticIndex
[22:26] <duncan-nz> yes
[22:26] <duncan-nz> it was on the [[Software]] page
[22:27] <wallan1> yeah
[22:28] <wallan1> what's happened to the old sound & video page?
[22:28] <duncan-nz> be blunt if you disagree with something I've done. It's quicker than trying to say it nicely.
[22:29] <wallan1> i'm just trying to get my head around it ;)
[22:29] <wallan1> i haven't made my mind up, to be honest
[22:29] <duncan-nz> don't know. I'll look...
[22:29] <wallan1> there are definitely things i would like to rephrase, but that's just a matter of detail
[22:30] <duncan-nz> try this: Software > Browse by menu entry > Applications > Sound & Video
[22:31] <wallan1> but wasn't there a lot more material on the sound & video page?
[22:31] <duncan-nz> Feel free to change the phrasing where you want.
[22:31] <duncan-nz> Sorry, but I don't remember. There's another Sound & Video page, wait a mo...
[22:31] <wallan1> sure, i just want to make my mind up about structural issues first
[22:32] <duncan-nz> you mean this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultimediaApplications
[22:32] <wallan1> yes!
[22:33] <wallan1> does that have a place in the new schema?
[22:34] <duncan-nz> hey, there was a link to that page you were looking for in the Introduction of the sound and video page!
[22:35] <duncan-nz> It's currently under 'See also' as well.
[22:35] <wallan1> cool - that page has a lot of good material on it
[22:35] <duncan-nz> yes
[22:42] <wallan1> duncan-nz: i'
[22:43] <duncan-nz> hi
[22:43] <wallan1> sorry about that! i was just writing that i'll have a hack at some of this, if that's ok
[22:43] <duncan-nz> sure.
[22:43] <duncan-nz> A hack at what?
[22:43] <wallan1> i like some of the changes... not so keen on others though
[22:43] <duncan-nz> of right. go for it.
[22:44] <duncan-nz> well, I'm off to bed soon anyway... !
[22:44] <duncan-nz> which changes don't you like?
[22:44] <wallan1> i'm not keen on browsing by repository
[22:44] <duncan-nz> let me know as you clarify what it is you dislike about them
[22:44] <duncan-nz> ...neither am I. But using categories it's not hard to do.
[22:45] <wallan1> a section on default applications, yes, but i don't think it's a good idea to differentiate between universe and multiverse
[22:45] <wallan1> also, 'software' is awefully vague as a heading
[22:46] <wallan1> the whole of ubuntu is software!
[22:46] <wallan1> to me, it doesn't really mean anything
[22:47] <duncan-nz> well, I didn't choose the word. Ubuntu-doc did.
[22:47] <duncan-nz> ... and the documentation is for the whole of ubuntu...
[22:48] <wallan1> but they don't use it as a heading - they use it within specific sentences where it has meaning
[22:48] <wallan1> and they do use applications as well
[22:52] <duncan-nz> can you give me an example?
[22:53] <wallan1> most of the official documentation pages use the word applications
[22:56] <wallan1> what does a link called software say? what's the idea that it's communicating? software is a generic term, whereas application refers to discrete pieces of software with their own identities
[22:58] <wallan1> i know when i've used these pages in the past, the applications link has always been the one that's jumped out
[23:01] <duncan-nz> a.) https://help.ubuntu.com/ has "Adding and Removing Software"
[23:01] <duncan-nz> b.) ... which has "Add/Remove Applications" ...
[23:01] <duncan-nz> and "Installing packages without an Internet connection"
[23:01] <duncan-nz> and Synaptic Package Manager...
[23:02] <duncan-nz> So as far as I can see there is no clean answer that I can see.
[23:02] <duncan-nz> The terminology is a mess.
[23:02] <duncan-nz> but that not today's probelm in my mind.
[23:03] <wallan1> of course, it's all about the semantics - but it's not about what we think, it's about the words that will be meaningful to the users of the wiki
[23:03] <duncan-nz> You're very welcome to to find a pattern we can apply, I'd be happy to apply it.
[23:03] <wallan1> applications: https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/internet/C/index.html, https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/musicvideophotos/C/index.html
[23:04] <duncan-nz> and _we_ know what software _and_ application means. Auntie Martha has only ever heard of these two things called 'Software' and 'Hardware'
[23:05] <duncan-nz> I'm not disagreeing with you allan. I'm just saying that I don't have the enrgy to try and find a symantic pattern to apply which lees experienced users will understand. If someone else will I'll be happy to help apply it.
[23:11] <duncan-nz> wallan1, that's me for tonight. I'll get a flood of emails on what you've changed when I get on in the morning.
[23:11] <duncan-nz> Nice working with you my friend. Good to work with people who do as much as they talk.