[14:24] <mase_slapt> lo
[14:25] <pep> hoi
[14:39] <newz2000> howdy
[14:42] <mase_slapt> so was thinking a little bit about the locale stuff. Do you think it would be worth asking the people doing the translations how they would like to do them if they could choose ?
[14:42] <newz2000> yes, probably
[14:42] <mase_slapt> so that before the next meeting, we can have some potential ideas
[14:42] <mase_slapt> for people to consider/ comment on etc..
[14:43] <newz2000> have you ever used launchpad's translations and do you know if it truly is a bad choice for long strings like paragraphs?
[14:43] <mase_slapt> no and no
[14:44] <mase_slapt> i think i have a lp username somewhere
[14:44] <mase_slapt> will try it out
[14:44] <newz2000> someone here has for sure
[14:44] <newz2000> maybe vbabiy since he's on the Italian team
[14:45] <pep> I have a lp username
[14:45] <vbabiy> newz2000: Italian team??
[14:45] <pep> I aready used it for translating
[14:45] <newz2000> vbabiy: aren't you on the italian team?
[14:45] <pep> but not sure about the long string problem...
[14:45] <vbabiy> newz2000: nope
[14:45] <pep> no that's volans newz2000
[14:45] <newz2000> oops
[14:45] <vbabiy> :)
[14:48] <newz2000> maybe we should set up translations for ubuntu-website and put some strings in their to translate
[14:49] <newz2000> hmmm
[14:50] <newz2000> looks like there is a manual approval process for this
[14:52] <mase_slapt> i'm signing up for lp atm
[15:00] <mase_slapt> newz2000: ok im registered, even made a branch!
[15:00] <mase_slapt> don't know what to do now :)
[15:00] <newz2000> I don't know either
[15:01] <Volans> Hi guys
[15:01] <newz2000> Unfortunately I'm in up to my ears on something and can't start anew
[15:01] <Volans> what happen?
[15:01] <newz2000> hi Volans!
[15:01] <newz2000> are you familiar with translations in launchpad
[15:01] <mase_slapt> hey Volans
[15:02] <Volans> newz2000: making translations or loading po files?
[15:02] <newz2000> well, is it true that translating long strings like paragraphs is not ideal using launchpad?
[15:03] <pep> ask in #launchpad
[15:03] <Volans> why newz2000?
[15:03] <newz2000> related to the startpage
[15:03] <newz2000> good idea pep
[15:04] <Volans> newz2000: I'm asking a friend of mine that translate in italian ubuntu...
[15:04] <Volans> and it says that he don't think there are any problem to translate paragraphs
[15:05] <newz2000> how about full pages?
[15:05] <newz2000> like 5 paragraphs with two headings
[15:05] <pep> neither do I.. I've translated already and there shouldn't be a problem... now you should ask in #lp for details...
[15:05] <pep> #ubuntu-translators
[15:05]  * pep just had an idea
[15:06] <mase_slapt> newz2000: if we associate paragraphs with xpath xpressions we can win!
[15:06] <newz2000> ?
[15:06] <Volans> newz2000: you can divide the page into single paragraphs
[15:06] <newz2000> true
[15:06] <Volans> everithing you can done in a po file can be translated in LP as I know
[15:07] <newz2000> I wonder where/why I heard that long text was tricky
[15:08] <mase_slapt> just researching .po files
[15:08] <newz2000> mase_slapt: I'm not sure what you mean by xpath expressions ftw
[15:09] <mase_slapt> like an xml doc can be queried using an xpath xpression, its what sql is to databases
[15:09] <mase_slapt> but xslt is based on xpath matches
[15:10] <mase_slapt> so as long as we can say this paragraph matches to this xpath xpression.., we can have 1 template
[15:10] <mase_slapt> and just put the content in.
[15:10] <Volans> mase_slapt: we are spoken about what page?
[15:10] <mase_slapt> Volans: homepage afiak
[15:11] <newz2000> intrepid start page
[15:12] <Volans> ah, interesting, and there are news after the meeting?
[15:13] <mase_slapt> like we could have a .po with a "title"   "blah in jrandom language"
[15:13] <mase_slapt> and have a lookup for title and //head/title
[15:14] <newz2000> I think that's how .po files work. there's a short string, like PARAGRAPH_ONE that gets substituted for the translated string
[15:14] <mase_slapt> actually there is heaps of ways to do this with .po files
[15:14] <mase_slapt> yeh gettext even
[15:15] <mase_slapt> which is much simpler
[15:15] <Volans> newz2000: sorry for my unawareness of that, but now how are translated the start pages?
[15:16] <newz2000> I think that the doc team gives each willing translator a copy of the file and they submit it back into version control
[15:16] <Volans> the html file?
[15:17] <newz2000> yes
[15:18] <Volans> this can be imporved with po files, xml+xslt, or simple script substitution... moreover I think that the start page should have much less text
[15:18] <pep> yes
[15:18] <pep> good point
[15:18] <newz2000> yes, about the text quantity, that's a goal
[15:19] <newz2000> this is the part where we need to get involved with the doc team. We need to coordinate the next meeting with them.
[15:19] <newz2000> and we need to do it soon I think
[15:19] <Volans> sure
[15:20] <Volans> you prefer a static or dinamic solution?
[15:20] <Volans> i.e. static = script that create an html file for each locale
[15:20] <Volans> dinamic = xml+xslt solution or DB solution or Python solution
[15:20] <newz2000> yes, that server has no dynamic content capability accept mod-rewrite and the ability to serve content based on language
[15:20] <newz2000> so static
[15:21] <newz2000> and xml+xslt can be a static solution too
[15:21] <mase_slapt> yeh build script
[15:21] <mase_slapt> i think the gettext approach will work though
[15:21] <mase_slapt> i can extract the existing content
[15:21] <Volans> yes but if we make a buld script we can also use simple text substitutions, also a bash script can do the work ;)
[15:22] <mase_slapt> yep
[15:22] <mase_slapt> i agree
[15:22] <mase_slapt> LP have a web services api ?
[15:22] <Volans> bash/python/perl/every language you prefer
[15:22] <newz2000> the current build script is python based
[15:22] <newz2000> I don't know mase
[15:23] <newz2000> yes, it must, because ubuntu has a python module for lp built in
[15:23] <newz2000> I just don't know if it's targeted at read only access or if it can post too
[15:23] <mase_slapt> wait , it can import .po files right ?
[15:23] <newz2000> lp? yes
[15:24] <mase_slapt> ok, well i can clean up the existing .html files , extract the content , make .po files from them
[15:24] <mase_slapt> and import them into lp
[15:24] <Volans> mase_slapt: due that the text will be reviewed and probably rediced
[15:24] <Volans> *reduced
[15:25] <newz2000> right
[15:25] <Volans> starting from the actual version is not the better solution
[15:25] <Volans> I think
[15:25] <newz2000> so there's one issue that we're bumping up against...
[15:25] <newz2000> offline start page
[15:25] <newz2000> mase_slapt: the files in the source folder are the offline pages and are shown if firefox has no internet connection
[15:25] <Volans> newz2000: we need to have an offline start page?
[15:25] <newz2000> yes
[15:26] <newz2000> our content currently comes from the offline page
[15:27] <Volans> how I can see the offline version?
[15:27] <newz2000> if you're in ubuntu... /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/
[15:28] <newz2000> I guess if we're making a static start page we may want to create an offline version too
[15:28] <Volans> oh I see now
[15:28] <Volans> never seen
[15:28] <newz2000> before hardy it was the default homepage
[15:29] <Volans> newz2000: we can create the same page and put it on a package and online
[15:29] <newz2000> ah
[15:29] <Volans> but the online version can be changed in case of particular problems
[15:29] <newz2000> you've got it Volans
[15:29] <newz2000> those files must have   source package somewhere
[15:30] <newz2000> also having a search box in the middle of the offline page would be pretty devious. :-)
[15:30] <Volans> searching
[15:30] <mase_slapt> sorry guys , gotta bail . can someone post an email to the list if there is anything that comes of this discussion / if there are jobs to do
[15:30] <Volans> seems to be the ubuntu-docs package
[15:30] <newz2000> mase_slapt: yes, I will
[15:30] <mase_slapt> thanks
[15:30] <mase_slapt> night all
[15:31] <Volans> bye mase_slapt, good night
[15:31] <newz2000> wow, there's quite a bit in that package
[15:31] <Volans> yeah
[15:31] <newz2000> 56.9MB!!!!
[15:31] <newz2000> oh, probably highly compressed though
[15:34] <Volans> there are duplicate files... why?
[15:35] <newz2000> very good question
[15:35] <Volans> see in file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/ the locales and locales-ubuntu folders seems to have the same files
[15:35] <newz2000> locales is a link
[15:35] <Volans> ah sorry, I was looking trough firefox, not shelll
[15:37] <Volans> mmmh strange file tree
[15:37] <Volans> locales -> /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage-locales
[15:37] <Volans> so locales-ubuntu is a copy of /etc/alternatives/firefox-homepage-locales ?
[15:39] <Volans> ah no, firefox-homepage-locales -> /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/locales-ubuntu
[15:39] <Volans> very strange linking system for me
[16:08] <Volans> newz2000: I have just spoken with Milo of the italian translation team and he clarified me some things, so I have a proposal for the whole offline/online start page project
[16:09] <newz2000> go for it
[16:12] <Volans> now the tranlations are made manually because LP does not accept html files for tranlation
[16:12] <Volans> so my proposal is to:
[16:13] <Volans>  create a project on LP that will have the code of the "master" page (html+css+js+images) + manage the translations through LP with PO files, add to the project files also a python script that will output two folders, one for online and another for offline pages with the required structure in the two different contest. The offline part will be included in the ubuntu-docs package that now doesn't have the code on LP (mdke upload the tar.gz and 
[16:14] <Volans> obviously we have to coordinate that with mdke and the doc team
[16:15] <Volans> if they agree
[16:15] <newz2000> yes
[16:16] <Volans> what do you think about?
[16:16] <newz2000> I think it sounds like a good idea. I think we need to:
[16:17] <newz2000> Appoint a project manager, and see if the doc team thinks it feasible for this release (time wise)
[16:17] <newz2000> its more work than I can do
[16:17] <newz2000> w/out sacrificing something else
[16:19] <Volans> if you want I can ask mdke for his opinion about that idea
[16:20] <newz2000> Volans: go for it
[16:20] <newz2000> that's an excellent next step
[16:20] <Volans> ok, thanks
[16:49] <Volans> newz2000: just a question... in the offline version the link to the resources can be useless... probably we have to rethink the page for an offline version
[16:49] <newz2000> true.. I'd say make that part a lower priority
[16:50] <Volans> ok
[17:09] <newz2000> oh, right... ie6 has no min-height
[17:09]  * newz2000 smacks head
[17:10] <Volans> about what newz2000? :)
[17:10] <Volans> you can avoid the problem with the trick I have suggested you some days ago ;)
[17:11] <newz2000> oh, no biggie
[17:12] <newz2000> everything was perfect except in ie my box was about 10px high
[17:12] <newz2000> quick and easy fix
[17:12] <Volans> good
[17:12] <newz2000> I was just venting a little. :-) ie frustrates me sometimes
[17:20] <ryanakca> newz2000: looking at the ML, I see you guys/gals are considering making download page using GeoIP/etc... would it be easy enough for you to create a syndicated page for us, or would iframes mess it up on us?
[17:20] <newz2000> no, if we do that, we'll do it for you too
[17:21]  * ryanakca nods, thanks :)
[17:21] <newz2000> btw, about your iframe height, I did confirm it's related to font-size probs. opera, ff and konq4 all use very diff font settings. on opera the box is too big and konq too small.
[17:21] <ryanakca> I forget, you subscribed to kubuntu-devel?
[17:22] <newz2000> no, I'm not...
[17:22] <newz2000> I'm hesitant to subscribe to an active list, I assume its pretty busy isn't it?
[17:23] <ryanakca> newz2000: not really, might get a thread per week, certainly nothing compared to ubuntu-web
[17:23] <ryanakca> newz2000: assuming that I get everything sent to it and my spam filter isn't buggy ;)
[17:23] <newz2000> I'm surprised
[17:24]  * ryanakca nods
[17:24] <newz2000> so you should try a height in ems or some other unit that's relative to font size
[17:24]  * ryanakca nods, I'll test it on my testsite first
[17:25] <ryanakca> Mind doing a mysql dump for me, and if you can, a backup of our document root?
[17:25] <newz2000> sure
[17:25] <ryanakca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2008-July/thread.html
[17:25] <ryanakca> Thanks :D
[17:26] <ryanakca> newz2000: Also, would you recommend I add kubuntu-members to the kubuntu-website lp group, since I'm asking the ML to help out with various things, or take it slow and let the ones who really want to help join the team?
[17:26] <newz2000> well, you're not using launchpad authentication are you?
[17:27] <ryanakca> nope
[17:27] <ryanakca> at the moment, it's just the .htaccess and drupal protecting it. I don't know if we will in the future though
[17:27] <newz2000> so kubuntu-members would only get bug email by doing this?
[17:28] <ryanakca> they don't get bug email even then, the Ubuntu Website Editors are the bug contacts iirc
[17:28]  * ryanakca growls at no longer being able to find that information on the project's front page
[17:29]  * ryanakca nods, all they'd get is commit access to the theme
[17:29] <newz2000> I'm not really familiar with the benefits of group membership
[17:29] <newz2000> ryanakca: what do you hope to get by having a copy of the document root?
[17:30] <newz2000> we use an odd layout, so would be better if you just told me what you wanted
[17:30] <ryanakca> newz2000: I would be sure that everything mirrors kubuntu.org, and that my testsite isn't different in some odd way that might cause me headaches down the road...
[17:30] <newz2000> probably not going to happen
[17:31] <newz2000> here's what you can do...
[17:31] <ryanakca> Mind you, I guess the drupal is configured to the path and everything on the Canonical servers, so would I even be able to import the database dump?
[17:31] <newz2000> ensure your kubuntu theme is in [siteroot]/themes/
[17:31] <newz2000> ryanakca: you can, you just need to visit your settings page and change the paths there
[17:36] <ryanakca> newz2000: ok, thanks
[17:41] <ryanakca> newz2000: the start page is written by the Doc team?
[17:42] <newz2000> the content is, yes
[17:43] <ryanakca> newz2000: If Kubuntu were to have a start page, would the google revenue go to Ubuntu or Kubuntu? Or would it not really matter?
[17:44] <newz2000> I don't know how that would work
[17:44] <newz2000> in case you're getting ideas, it probably shouldn't go to you though
[17:44] <newz2000> ;-)
[17:47] <ryanakca> newz2000: duh, just that I find that some people still feel (even though they shouldn't) that Kubuntu is the forgotten child... might be an incentive for them to help out if they think ``Oooh! This work will help fund future Kubuntu development!''
[17:47] <newz2000> maybe
[17:47] <newz2000> is it possible to change the start page for konq?
[17:48] <ryanakca> newz2000: Yes
[17:49] <ryanakca> newz2000: I think we're aiming for one based on it.
[17:49] <newz2000> it cannot hurt to investigate. ping riddel and he can get in touch with the Canonical guy...
[17:49]  * newz2000 looks up the canonical guy's name
[17:50] <newz2000> Randy Linnel
[17:50]  * ryanakca nods, thanks
[17:50] <newz2000> I suspect this will be far easier than with ff because kde and corp aren't as protective of their trademark (and existing revenue stream) as moz
[18:11] <Volans> newz2000: sent now a mail to mdke, I have put you in CC
[18:12] <newz2000> Volans: If you don't get a response you may want to do it on the docteam list
[18:12] <newz2000> I think he's a bit backlogged
[18:14] <ryanakca> newz2000: what are the specifics of the start page? (size/etc)
[18:14] <Volans> ok, if he don't reply in a day or so I will send it to the docteam list, I hope that he will reply also because he is the contact of my locoteam ;)
[18:14] <newz2000> ryanakca: I don't think there are any hard-set rules
[18:15] <ryanakca> newz2000: no, but what sizes should we keep it around to be good for accessibility/usability/various Kubuntu devices?
[18:15] <Volans> ryanakca: actually the online start page for ubuntu is 876px wide
[18:16] <newz2000> I've been targeting about 800px of content area on layouts about 850px wide up about 900px of content for layouts 950px wide
[18:16]  * ryanakca nods
[18:25]  * Volans restart
[18:29] <Volans> newz2000: I think you can remove the meeting alert from the topic of this channe ;)
[18:29] <Volans> *channel
[18:41] <Volans> now I have to go, see you, bye bye
[21:28] <jpds> newz2000: You could "/mode -t" the channel so there is no need to op to change the /topic.
[23:59] <Volans> newz2000: are you there?