[00:05] <tanath> say i want to become a good open source developer. what would be the best way to get started?
[00:14] <RAOF> tanath: Find an itch, scratch it.
[00:14] <tanath> RAOF: well, that addresses motive, but beyond that...
[00:15] <tanath> RAOF: and i did say _good_ developer... ;)
[00:15] <RAOF> So, if the itch is "this program doesn't quite do what I want", the scratch would be writing a patch that conforms to the style and other guidelines of the existing code, and submitting it either to the mailinglist or bug tracker or both.
[00:15] <tanath> RAOF: what about learning good style, and common OS practices, etc...
[00:16] <tanath> where do you find guidelines, etc.?
[00:16] <RAOF> Well, style varies from project to project.
[00:16] <tanath> ok, but there ought to be suggested standards somewhere, whether they're generally followed or not...
[00:16] <RAOF> Read a bit of the project's code, check out the website, check out the HACKING/HACKERS file if they have one.
[00:17] <tanath> and if you're looking to start your own?
[00:17] <RAOF> tanath: GNU have suggested coding standards; but the most important standard is 'looks like the rest of the code' :)
[00:17] <tanath> hehe
[00:17] <tanath> that would seem to be common sense... :P
[00:18] <tanath> a matter of maintainability
[00:18] <RAOF> So, writing your own thing has 3 big things: some form of public version contol, a mailing list, and BIG SHINY LICENSE HEADERS ON ALL FILES.
[00:19] <RAOF> The last one there is mainly to make it not eye-gougeingly painful for distributions to package your code.
[00:19] <Volkodav> when I start compix it kicks in but errors Checking for Xgl: not present.
[00:19] <RAOF> Volkodav: Not an error.
[00:19] <Volkodav> /usr/bin/compiz.real (ezoom) - Error: InitObject failed
[00:19] <Volkodav> /usr/bin/compiz.real (core) - Error: Couldn't activate plugin 'ezoom'
[00:19] <tanath> there are public services for some things...
[00:20] <RAOF> If you were using ATI it would also say "Checking for nvidia: not present"
[00:20] <Volkodav> well I have no cube or wobbly windows though
[00:20] <Volkodav> I am on nvidia
[00:20] <tanath> RAOF: i understand launchpad enables users to have their own repos, for instance. there's also sourceforge..
[00:20] <RAOF> tanath: Yes.  I'd suggest launchpad, which gives you bzr hosting, a bugtracker, mailinglists, translation services.
[00:20] <tanath> RAOF: dunno about mailing lists though
[00:20] <tanath> RAOF: ah
[00:21] <RAOF> Launchpad really is pretty cool; better than any of the other hosting sites I've seen.
[00:21] <tanath> RAOF: i like what i see so far
[00:22] <tanath> i did some googling and didn't find any good places to start for someone with this question
[00:22] <RAOF> The GNU project might have guidelines.
[00:23] <RAOF> And it's often good to use the same style as the major library you're using.
[00:23] <RAOF> So mono code would use the Mono project guidelines, a GTK+ app written in C would use the GTK style guidelines, etc.
[00:24] <tanath> what if i'd rather support a given standard and conform to that?
[00:24] <RAOF> That's also fine.
[00:24] <tanath> are you familiar with anything other than GNU recommendations?
[00:24] <RAOF> Consistant across your codebase is what you're after, but your codebase is your own :)
[00:24] <tanath> indeed
[00:25] <RAOF> But really, the most important things are: public version control, some easy way of contacting you/the project, and clear licensing.
[00:26] <tanath> so what are some good starting points for learning about public version control, developing deb packages, etc.?
[00:26] <RAOF> You probably don't need to worry about packaging; most projects don't.
[00:26] <RAOF> That's what we're for :)
[00:26] <tanath> hrm?
[00:27] <tanath> but if you want to get into maintaining your own packages?
[00:27] <RAOF> !packagingguide
[00:29] <tanath> you part of MOTU?
[00:29] <RAOF> As for version control, I'd use bzr: http://bazaar-vcs.org
[00:29] <RAOF> Yah.
[00:29] <tanath> love the name :P
[00:29] <tanath> thanks
[00:29] <tanath> wby bzr?
[00:29] <tanath> *why
[00:30] <RAOF> (1) It's a distributed VCS, and that's really useful.
[00:30] <RAOF> (2) It's really, really easy to use.
[00:30] <RAOF> (3) Launchpad has excellent bzr hosting
[00:30] <RAOF> (4) A couple of my friends work on it :)
[00:31] <tanath> how does a distributed VCS work?
[00:33] <RAOF> The basic difference between a centralised and distributed VCS is that in the distributed VCS there isn't a technologically-mandated 'trunk'.
[00:33] <tanath> hm
[00:33] <RAOF> Projects still have a 'trunk', but it's there by community consent, basically.
[00:34] <tanath> what about learning about various environmental aspects of linux development? like there's various things like dbus...
[00:34] <RAOF> The bazaar-vcs page can probably explain this better.
[00:35] <tanath> will look into it
[00:35] <RAOF> tanath: There's not really a unified "go-to" page for that;  The gnome developer library might be good, and I think KDE has a similar thing.
[00:35] <tanath> yeah
[00:36] <tanath> what about mentoring. it's talked about on launchpad. how does that work?
[00:36] <tanath> is there a system of some sort? or is it just basically getting someone to help you along?
[00:37] <RAOF> Launchpad has a button that a developer can press to say that they're available to help someone on a particular thing.
[00:37] <RAOF> Mostly bugs.  It's ad-hoc; there's no system there.
[00:38] <tanath> well, then i imagine the developer might have something specific in mind, whereas the person looking for a mentor may have something else in mind...
[00:38] <tanath> perhaps there ought to be a bit of a system
[00:40] <RAOF> Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that would work.
[00:40] <RAOF> Anyway, I'm off.  Good luck!
[00:40] <tanath> thanks
[01:01] <Volkodav> when I turn compiz off I loose borders on all windows in xfce
[01:01] <Volkodav> what's the fix?
[01:10] <DanaG> yay, kernel panic!
[01:10] <DanaG> Thanks, bluez!
[01:12] <tanath> Volkodav: you need to rerun your window manager
[01:12] <DanaG2> ... and again.
[01:12] <DanaG2> .... and a third time... but this time, I did it at console.
[01:13] <DanaG2> The only really important thing I can read (everything else is off the top, and not scrollback'able):
[01:14] <DanaG2> EIP: [<f8b52df1>] hci_usb_tx_process+0x211/0x3a0 [hci_usb] SS:ESP 0068:f1337cd4
[01:14] <DanaG2> Kernel panic - not syncing: Fatal exception in interrupt
[01:27] <ptn107> anyone else have a problem with Remote Desktop Viewer (vinagre) just closing the second it opens?
[01:27] <ptn107> no bugs are reported for it, it could be just my machine
[01:28] <Belboz99> ptn107: I'll check just as soon as I finish installing Alpha 3
[01:29] <Belboz99> I ran out of disk space on my VM :-P
[01:29] <ptn107> o
[01:29] <ptn107> i got it running on my spare laptop, i must say ive had no other problems with it
[01:29] <G_009> !bug
[01:29] <Belboz99> I've got almost 2TB on my home LAN, and it's all 95% full :(
[01:32]  * DanaG wishes backuppc worked better.
[01:32] <DanaG> I'm not sure what's bottlenecking it... but it's not even getting 10 megabits throughput on the network.
[01:32] <DanaG> Granted, it is writing to a USB 2.0 hard drive, so there's some CPU usage involved....
[01:32] <DanaG> but I'd expect at least, oh, 5 megabits throughput; isn't that reasonable?
[01:45] <DanaG> damn bluez.
[01:45] <DanaG> BLuetooth audio does not work for me.
[01:49] <DanaG> yay, hci-usb kernel panics.l
[01:56] <DanaG> Aah... it only panic if connected to a USB 2.0 port.
[02:04]  * DanaG goes around grumbling.
[02:30] <Belboz99> Hey all, I have one question, will there ever be an alternative for the now-defunct dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg to configure graphics options through the CLI?
[02:31] <sarah_bear> hey guys, how is intrepid ibex?
[02:31] <Belboz99> because I've wasted way too much damn time trying to alter xorg.conf files manually
[02:31] <RAOF> Belboz99: I don't think that there's any such tool planned.
[02:31] <Belboz99> fark
[02:31] <RAOF> What options do you need to tweak?
[02:31] <Belboz99> I just need to set resolution
[02:31] <Belboz99> the display detection doesn't work most of the time through the GUI
[02:32] <RAOF> Then, unless you've got a crazy xorg.conf, you don't need to edit it.
[02:32] <Belboz99> so, it ends up giving 2 options, 640x480 and 800x600
[02:32] <RAOF> Which means your driver is failing, yes.
[02:32] <sarah_bear> where can i download intrepid ibex?
[02:32] <RAOF> Care to post xorg.conf & Xorg.0.log?
[02:32] <Belboz99> RAOF: I'm using VBox
[02:33] <RAOF> Belboz99: Isn't there a vbox X driver available?
[02:33] <Belboz99> but also, I've had problems before with other machines on 8.04, especially the big LCD TV
[02:33] <Belboz99> right, there is
[02:33] <RAOF> And this driver isn't working?
[02:33] <Belboz99> I believe that's what it uses, but every time I change the xorg file it won't restart the GUI, and then when I restart the VM it complains that the Xorg file is broken
[02:34] <DanaG> Oh yeah, here's one piece of advice: disable bulletproof-X; it causes more pain than it's worth, in my experience.
[02:34] <RAOF> Well, that suggests that your xorg.conf is broken.  Why don't you delete it?
[02:34] <Belboz99> RAOF: right, that driver is not working ATM
[02:34] <scyrma> how'
[02:34] <scyrma> .. how's the weather in intrepid this morning?
[02:34] <DanaG> Oh yeah, here's one lovely thing to deal with: broken EDID.
[02:34] <RAOF> DanaG: I don't think Bulletproof X is enabled at the moment; I haven't hit it recently.
[02:35] <DanaG> Toshiba has that, and it even affects Windows.
[02:35] <Belboz99> I'm in bulletproof-X, and it tells me configuration test failed, Screen was left at default, and Graphics card was set to VBox
[02:35] <DanaG> At least, some of their older laptops have that issue.
[02:35] <DanaG> =þ
[02:35] <DanaG> They identify 1024x768 as 976x768.
[02:35] <DanaG> Or some stupid thing like that.
[02:35] <RAOF> Belboz99: xorg.conf & Xorg.0.log are what I need to be able to give you sensible advice.
[02:36] <Belboz99> okay, give me a moment
[02:39] <DanaG> MMm.... and the newer versions of the bluetooth utilities have an entirely NONFUNCTIONING audio service.
[02:39] <DanaG> It doesn't even let you try to START the audio service.
[02:39] <Belboz99> http://rafb.net/p/rSIpnm64.html
[02:39] <DanaG> odd... for once, it worked....
[02:39] <DanaG> despite the lack of audio service.
[02:40] <Belboz99> RAOF: that's with a few modifications, I couldn't change the resolution, even straight Out-of-the-box
[02:40] <RAOF> Belboz99: And your Xorg.0.log?
[02:40] <RAOF> That's where the real meat will be.
[02:41] <DanaG> Mmmm, okay...
[02:41] <DanaG> then it gave an oops...
[02:41] <DanaG> and made PulseAudio and aplay devour a total of 100% of BOTH cpu cores.
[02:42] <Belboz99> http://rafb.net/p/F5QnDz59.html
[02:42] <Belboz99> sorry for the delay RAOF, I'm working between a really small VM window and a standard Ubuntu installation, with no paste between them for some reason
[02:43] <RAOF> Belboz99: got internet?  apt-get install pastebinit
[02:43] <IdleOne> Belboz99, using virtualbox?
[02:44] <DanaG> Mmm, and now PulseAudio segfaulted.
[02:44] <IdleOne> right ctrl+f  for full screen and right ctrl+l to minimize
[02:44] <DanaG> Don't you just love the state of Bluetooth audio in Linux?
[02:44] <DanaG> Brokenness all around, no matter how you slice it and dice it.
[02:44] <Belboz99> okay, pastebinit is installed
[02:45] <Belboz99> IdleOne: ctrl+f does make it go full screen, but the OS still only uses 1/4 the area of my display
[02:45] <IdleOne> strange
[02:45] <RAOF> Belboz99: Now, pastebinit /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[02:46] <IdleOne> well you got pastebinit now so should be easier for you
[02:46] <Belboz99> http://pastebin.com/f7573a9a
[02:46] <DanaG> Argh, it also irritates me that I can't 'killall -9 quodlibet'
[02:47] <G_009> DBus error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.InvalidArgs: Mountpoint Already registered
[02:47] <Belboz99> oops, typo
[02:47] <RAOF> Heh.  Empty pastebin!
[02:47] <Belboz99> http://pastebin.com/f75735a9a
[02:48] <Belboz99> there ya be ;)
[02:49] <RAOF> Right; so, it's not using the VBox driver.
[02:50] <Belboz99> right, it's using vesa
[02:51] <RAOF> So, what happens if you move the xorg.conf out of the way?
[02:51] <DanaG> Mmmm: underrun!!! (at least 74873.454 ms long)
[02:51] <RAOF> 'sudo mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf ~/xorg.conf.backup', or something.
[02:51] <Belboz99> RAOF: do you happen to know the exact name of the vbox driver?
[02:51] <Belboz99> I was thinking of specifying that in xorg.conf
[02:52] <DanaG> I: sink-input.c: Created input [number that keeps counting up as sound skips repeatedly] on alsa_output.bluetooth with sample spec s16le 2ch 44100Hz and channel map front-left, front-right
[02:53] <DanaG> It went all the way from somewhere around 20 or 50 all the way up to 231... and then stopped.
[02:53] <DanaG> And hung with silence.
[02:53] <DanaG> And when I move the stream to a different sink... pulseaudio segfaults.
[02:56] <Belboz99> RAOF: moving it out of the way just does the same as first boot, 800x600 :(
[02:56] <Belboz99> no vbox driver either I don't think
[03:01] <DanaG> how the fack are you supposed to move a stream when it keeps popping up and going away repeatedly?
[03:02] <DanaG> It's like whack-a-mole with 1/4 second timing.
[03:02] <RAOF> Belboz99: Oh, that's going to be one problem; there _isn't_ a a vbox X driver, just a vmware one.
[03:04] <RAOF> So, the problem is that vesa doesn't like what VBox is saying.
[03:04] <Belboz99> ah, IC
[03:05] <DanaG> MMmm, and PulseAudio just segfaulted again.
[03:05] <DanaG> Why is it not bringing up apport?
[03:05] <RAOF> You could _possibly_ fix this by adding a 'Virtual 1024 768' line to your Screen section.
[03:05] <DanaG> How DO you killall by name some thing that doesn't name itself?
[03:06] <DanaG> quodlibet runs as "python" -- so it's dangerous to just killall that.
[03:06] <RAOF> DanaG: By pid, of course.
[03:06] <DanaG> That's a pain.
[03:06] <DanaG> Is there at least a one-liner that'll automatically get the pid?
[03:06] <G_009> !language
[03:06] <RAOF> You could probably file a bug; quodlibet shouldn't be using /usr/bin/env python
[03:06] <DanaG> "pain" is not bad.
[03:07] <RAOF> Belboz99: Your problem seems to be that VESA doesn't like the monitor that VBox is pretending to be; it tries a less-strict mode, but before it does that it sets the virtual size to 800 600
[03:07] <DanaG> I left off "in the...".
[03:07] <RAOF> Belboz99: Incidentally... file a bug :)
[03:07] <DanaG> oh, I see, it was the 'f'.
[03:07] <DanaG> A bit late on that one.  =þ
[03:08] <RAOF> Belboz99: Since the total resolution of all attached displays can't exceed the virtual size, you lose the 1024x768 mode.
[03:15] <Belboz99> ouch
[03:50] <DanaG> grrargh, bluetooth.
[04:30] <scyrma> hmm... latest firefox package segfaults on http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=102042 ... don't know if anonymous access is possible, you might need a (free) account to see it. Tried to start firefox with -safe-mode, did the same thing
[04:31] <scyrma> though thunderbird works well today, so I'm happy :)
[04:50] <burner> anyone know how to change the audio output for flash?  it's coming out of my internal speaker all of a sudden
[04:57] <crimsun> burner: use pavucontrol
[04:57] <crimsun> and yes, the pc speaker issue is known and being addressed.
[04:58] <DanaG> Ideally, it'd only be used if nothing else exists.
[04:58] <DanaG> I actually can see some use cases for that -- it'd let servers make warning sounds, and such.
[04:59] <DanaG> Without having to deal with real sound cards, that is.
[05:00] <crimsun> except there's no sane initial (default) volume control or level.
[05:00] <crimsun> that makes the pc speaker all but useluss
[05:00] <crimsun> useless*
[05:02] <DanaG> Aah.  Well, a sane default volume would be minimum -- and then let people increase it if they want to use it.
[05:02] <DanaG> You'd want to disable the module by default, anyway... but don't not-compile it, because some people might want to explicitly enable it.
[05:02] <DanaG> s/disable/blacklist/
[05:04] <crimsun> "minimum"?  what is that?
[05:04] <DanaG> Zero.
[05:04] <DanaG> Muted.
[05:05] <DanaG> Whatever
[05:05] <DanaG> .
[05:05] <crimsun> and luke is not disabling or blacklisting the kernel driver.  Instead, he'll ignore it in PulseAudio's hal parsing.
[05:05] <DanaG> Aah.  That makes sense -- then if people want it, they can explicitly load it.
[05:26] <burner> aww yeah!  pavucontrol is sweet.  I knew it was a known issue about the internal speaker, thanks for the workaround crimsun
[06:06] <DanaG> (EE) SAVAGE(0): DRI isn't enabled
[06:06] <DanaG> (WW) SAVAGE(0): Direct rendering disabled
[06:06] <DanaG> How do I enable DRI?
[06:09] <RAOF> On savage?
[06:09] <RAOF> That's a blast from the past.
[06:13] <DanaG> Yeah.
[06:13] <DanaG> It
[06:13] <DanaG> It's an old Athlon XP laptop.
[06:13] <DanaG> Chip is "TwisterK"
[06:13] <DanaG> I don't expect 3D... but even 2D things like Firefox scrolling are being slow.
[06:13] <DanaG> Even without compositing in Metacity.
[06:13] <RAOF> Well, that's not DRI
[06:13] <DanaG> Oh.
[06:13] <RAOF> DRI is _exactly_ 3D.
[06:14] <RAOF> As for 2D being slow... seems like it sucks to have a savage card.
[06:15] <DanaG> Hmm, well, I wonder what I can even do with Savage in 3D.
[06:15] <RAOF> Perhaps you could play with the XAA acceleration options; I doubt it's using EXA.
[06:15] <DanaG> EXA just makes the screen become garbage.
[06:16] <DanaG> I've tried several times over the past year or so (same laptop).
[06:16] <RAOF> I'm surprised X even starts when you try.
[06:16] <RAOF> I wouldn't have thought that there'd've been any EXA hookup in that driver.
[06:19] <DanaG> man savage.
[06:19] <DanaG> It does offer EXA.
[06:20] <RAOF> Wow.
[06:20] <RAOF> I stand corrected.
[06:20] <DanaG> Oh yeah, does VIA Rhine ethernet just suck?  I'm using backuppc on that laptop (Athlon XP 1.2GHz, with 768 megs of RAM, though 32 go to the video chip).
[06:21] <DanaG> I'm getting pathetic throughput on it, for some reason.
[06:21] <LSD|Ninja> Everything VIA has a nasty tendency to suck
[06:21] <DanaG> I am using a USB hard drive, true enough...
[06:21] <DanaG> but I'd expect to get at least 5 megabits, not just 200 kilobits or so.
[06:21] <DanaG> How can I benchmark the NIC?
[06:44] <DanaG> Oh yeah, is there a way to make HAL mount USB hard drives even before I log in?
[06:47] <DanaG> Woah, I fixed DRI.
[06:47] <DanaG> Having nvidia installed on a non-nvidia-containing system == bad.
[06:49] <DanaG> Bummer... no NPOT support.
[06:49] <DanaG> non-power-of-two.
[06:52] <DanaG> Woah, aiglx works with it.
[06:52] <DanaG> I can run the flux screensaver from it (ssh client is nvidia).
[06:52] <DanaG> I'm getting 2 megabytes per second received by the nvidia box.
[06:53] <LSD|Ninja> I wish NetworkManager had an option to start interfaces at boot. It's a pain to have to be logged in in order to get connectivity >_<
[06:53] <DanaG> Note to self......
[06:54] <DanaG> don't run compiz over ssh.
[06:54] <DanaG> =þ
[06:54] <DanaG> It kills the local box.
[06:54] <DanaG> er
[06:54] <DanaG> kills the local X.
[06:54]  * DanaG is laughing at himself.
[06:55] <RAOF> LSD|Ninja: That's been slated for 0.7 for a while; I dunno if it's in yet.
[06:55] <RAOF> DanaG: Yeah, nvidia-glx breaks *.  I believe fglrx does the same.
[06:55] <DanaG> Oh, hmm.
[06:56] <DanaG> I'm ssh'd from the savage box into the nvidia box now.
[06:56] <DanaG> I can run metacity over ssh, and it works.
[06:56] <DanaG> And has compositing, too.
[06:56] <RAOF> You _may_ be able to run compiz.  nVidia's GL stack should allow it.
[06:56] <DanaG> I tried ssh from savage->nvidia box.
[06:56] <DanaG> Running compiz spits out the NPOT issue.
[06:57] <RAOF> Oh, right.
[06:57] <DanaG> Running nvidia->savage kills X on the nvidia box.
[06:57] <RAOF> Orly?
[06:57] <RAOF> Cool.
[06:58] <DanaG> I mean, running compiz that way does.
[06:58] <DanaG> But some other OpenGL stuff works.
[06:58] <DanaG> Like rss-glx "flux" screensaver.
[06:59] <RAOF> Compiz is pretty good at exercising corner cases.
[07:00]  * DanaG is trying tremulous under savage->nv
[07:00] <DanaG> Works slowly, crappily.
[07:00] <DanaG> And it outputs audio on the nvidia box.
[07:02] <DanaG> interesting... glxheads over ssh runs on the box I'm ssh'd into, not on the local.
[07:13] <DanaG> How do you make "savage" stretch the LCD image?
[07:25] <DanaG> !find asm/io.h
[07:25] <DanaG> find io.h
[07:25] <DanaG> er
[07:25] <DanaG> !find io.h
[07:28] <DanaG> nope...
[07:31] <Finnish> Where do I find new themes for Ibex?
[07:31] <LSD|Ninja> Same place you would anything else, it's just GNOME
[07:32] <DanaG> Argh... I had to manually find the right path in /usr/src/linux-headers.....
[07:32] <LSD|Ninja> I simply used the Nodoka packages I alien'd from the Fedora RPMs I was using on Hardy. Seem to work just fine.
[07:32] <DanaG> I'm using the "nanolx" theme repo.
[07:34] <Finnish> So I need to define a repo for a theme?
[07:34] <DanaG> http://www.nanolx.org/
[07:35] <DanaG> http://www.nanolx.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=1
[07:35] <RAOF> LSD|Ninja: You're aware that nodoka is in Intrepid, right?
[07:36] <LSD|Ninja> RAOF: It is? o_O
[07:36]  * RAOF liked the theme, so it is.  It's in Lenny, too.
[07:37] <RAOF> It really isn't much effort to maintain a gtk-engine or two :)
[07:37] <LSD|Ninja> I'll keep that in mind when I get around to reinstalling Intrepid
[07:37] <DanaG> My theme:
[07:37] <DanaG> http://picpaste.com/screenshot-orange-nodoka.png
[07:38] <LSD|Ninja> heh, I installed Nodoka to get away from the crappy orange :P
[07:39] <DanaG> I got away from the crappy orange to a nice orange.
[07:39] <DanaG> My screen is too dim to use anything darker.
[07:40] <DanaG> s/to/for me to/
[07:41] <DanaG> Do an image search for 'nodoka' and you'll find who the name reminds me of.
[08:03] <DanaG> I wonder which would be better for backuppc:
[08:04] <DanaG> A.  Athlon XP 1.2GHz, 768 (minus 32) MB RAM, via-rhine ethernet
[08:04] <DanaG> oh, and SDRAM, at that.
[08:04] <DanaG> B. Celeron 1.5GHz, 256MB DDR RAM, Intel e100 ethernet.
[08:05] <DanaG> BOth would need a cardbus ethernet card.
[08:07] <LSD|Ninja> DanaG: why would the Intel one need an ethernet card, onboard dead?
[08:18] <DanaG> er
[08:18] <DanaG> silly me
[08:19] <DanaG> s/ethernet/USB 2.0/
[08:19] <DanaG> =þ
[08:46] <chowmeined> why is intrepid so slow compared to hardy?
[09:40] <hyperair> does anybody know when nvidia-glx-96 is going to work again?
[09:40] <LSD|Ninja> hyperair: maybe when Ubuntu get around to updating it to .07, maybe not
[09:40] <LSD|Ninja> hyperair: Depends whether nVidia fixed it for the latest round of xorg breakage or not
[09:41] <RAOF> Nouveau's grown some XVMC acceleration... :)
[09:41] <RAOF> But not if you need nvidia-glx-96, I think.
[09:42] <hyperair> wait.. there's a .07?
[09:42] <LSD|Ninja> All I want is to get compiz running, will nouveau do that?
[09:42] <LSD|Ninja> hyperair: for a while now, Ubuntu haven't updated to it yet
[09:42] <hyperair> nope it won't
[09:42] <hyperair> LSD|Ninja: does .07 work for the latest round of xorg breakage?
[09:43] <LSD|Ninja> hyperair: I don't know, I've been waiting for it to hit the repos so I don't break stuff later
[09:44] <hyperair> i see.
[09:44] <hyperair> well i stupidly upgraded my hardy to intrepid and now i am compizless in ubuntu
[09:44] <hyperair> so i'm sticking with my archlinux until intrepid gets compiz back working for me....
[09:44] <hyperair> or....
[09:45] <hyperair> i lose my patience with archlinux entirely
[09:45] <hyperair> then i'll just install hardy again
[09:46] <RAOF> LSD|Ninja: No, nouveau aint gonna give you compiz.  Not for a while.
[09:46] <LSD|Ninja> That's what I thought ;)
[09:46]  * hyperair wonders whether ati cards are safe to use yet
[09:47] <LSD|Ninja> r300 wasn't too bad last I checked and is in Intrepid afaik, not sure about the newer ones though
[09:47] <RAOF> fglrx is getting much better.
[09:48] <RAOF> But, as always, don't grab the newest cards :)
[09:48] <hyperair> hahah
[09:48] <hyperair> i see
[09:48] <hyperair> well
[09:48] <hyperair> i'll grab an nvidia imo
[09:48] <hyperair> or intel
[09:48] <DanaG> My next laptop will likely have an HD3600-series.
[09:48] <LSD|Ninja> RAOF: or the oldest either in this case :P
[09:48] <hyperair> are there any intels that don't work with compiz?
[09:49] <RAOF> hyperair: None that you can buy now.
[09:49] <hyperair> goody
[09:49] <LSD|Ninja> hyperair: My GMA950 did, I expecte X3100 should by now, the new one will probably have teething trouble but that'll work out eventually
[09:49] <RAOF> LSD|Ninja: You need to go _old_ before you hit an ati card that won't do compiz now.
[09:49] <hyperair> hmm
[09:50] <LSD|Ninja> RAOF: I was being general, the older nVidia's need older drivers which is the problem here :P
[09:50] <RAOF> Right.
[09:50] <RAOF> At least when ATI drops support for a card there's a pretty much fully-featured open-source driver to catch you.
[09:51] <RAOF> We need to keep 4 frikkin nvidia drivers in the archives.
[09:52] <telexicon> RAOF, like mine
[09:52] <telexicon> except the open source driver has a lot of problems with this card
[09:53] <LSD|Ninja> RAOF: The only reason for that was the last card series ATi dropped support for predated them closing their drivers
[09:53] <DanaG> What's a good filesystem for storing backups of multiple computers?
[09:53] <RAOF> DanaG: EXT3?
[09:54] <DanaG> Needs to be relatively fast, and not run out of inodes.
[09:54]  * RAOF still thinks EXT3 is likely to be the winner
[09:55] <DanaG> What of XFS or JFS or reiser?
[09:55] <RAOF> XFS isn't exactly the first filesystem I think of when I hear "backup".
[09:56] <DanaG> Hmm.
[09:56] <DanaG> Can't say I know anything about it, anyway.
[09:56] <LSD|Ninja> all variants of reiser are pretty much dead (no pun intended, honest) now, JFS I don't know anything about it and XFS probably isn't what you want on a backup drive. ext3 is well proven and reliable so you're probably best to stick with that
[09:56] <telexicon> ive never had troubles with xfs
[09:56] <telexicon> but the code complexity is troublesome
[09:57] <LSD|Ninja> Neither have I but I still wouldn't recommend it where integrity is of the utmost importance
[09:57] <telexicon> i wish they'd hurry up with btrfs v_v
[09:57] <LSD|Ninja> If you don't treat xfs with respect, you will lose stuff. It's just how it works.
[09:57] <DanaG> Hmm, so how do I ensure that I'll have enough inodes on ext3?
[09:58] <RAOF> By taking the default setup, I believe.
[09:59] <DanaG> There'll be one XP MCE (really essentially pro) machine, one XP Home, one Vista Ultimate / Ubuntu combo.
[09:59] <RAOF> I'm not aware of inode exhaustion being a serious problem with ext3; what's going to be special with your setup that you'd be hitting an inode limit?
[09:59] <DanaG> So it'll need lots of inodes.
[09:59] <DanaG> And the partition is currently... oh...
[09:59] <DanaG> hmm... checking size.
[09:59] <LSD|Ninja> DanaG: If it's mostly Windows machines then consider one of those Windows Home Server boxes, backing up Windows boxes is opne of the functions of the software
[10:00] <DanaG> Partition is currently ~350 gigs; drive is a 700 (real) gig drive.
[10:00] <RAOF> DanaG: And it'll have a lot of inodes; I think the only way you'll run out of inodes is if you want to create billions of zero-byte files.
[10:00] <DanaG> I can just do "system state" backups on each box locally, and then do file backups of user profiles.
[10:04] <DanaG> hmm, still can't decide what FS to use.
[10:05] <RAOF> ext3.  It's not default for nothing :)
[10:05] <RAOF> Although it really doesn't matter very much.  The filesystem is unlikely to be your bottleneck.
[10:07] <DanaG> Can you change the number of inodes after the fact>
[10:07] <DanaG> ?
[10:07] <RAOF> I don't think so.
[10:07] <RAOF> But, again, I don't think inode exhaustion is a problem you'll actually _hit_.
[10:08] <DanaG> I noticed high iowait times when using the backup thingy, but I wasn't getting even close to the USB 2.0 theoretical bandwidth (or even to the 20 megabytes per second I'd usually see).
[10:08] <DanaG> I was seeing more like 5 megabytes per second, tops.
[10:08] <RAOF> You're backing up to an external USB drive?
[10:09] <DanaG> For now, yes.
[10:09] <DanaG> I may get an eSATA card, though.
[10:09] <DanaG> It'll likely still be that Athlon XP laptop, though.
[10:10] <RAOF> Basically, the impression I've got from the benchmarks I've seen is that ext is not really significantly slower than the other options under reasonable use.
[10:10] <LSD|Ninja> it used to be
[10:11] <LSD|Ninja> They implemented some speedups a while back that improved it a lot
[10:11] <RAOF> There are specific things that other filesystems do better at, but I don't remember any that you'd be likely to hit.
[10:11] <RAOF> ext also has the advantage of being reasonably CPU cheap.
[10:12] <RAOF> Bah.  How are you supposed to properly unittest C# code when all the implementation is private!
[10:12] <DanaG> Note that it'll also have a helluvalot of hard links.
[10:13] <RAOF> Many of which will be linked to files of reasonable size.
[10:14] <DanaG> So should I just go with the default  "bytes-per-inode" setting?
[10:16] <RAOF> That would be my guess.
[10:17] <DanaG>            dir_index    :   Use  hashed  b-trees  to  speed  up lookups in large directories.
[10:17] <DanaG> hmm, should I set that?
[10:17] <RAOF> It's not enabled by default?
[10:18] <DanaG> Beats me.
[10:18] <DanaG> that's all man mkfs.ext3 gives for description right there.
[10:18] <RAOF> I'm pretty sure it's default.  It won't hurt to specify it as well, though.
[10:19] <RAOF> That feature is a fairly serious performance win on listing directories.
[10:19] <DanaG> mke2fs.conf:   [defaults]	base_features = sparse_super,filetype,resize_inode,dir_index,ext_attr      	blocksize = 4096         	inode_size = 256      	inode_ratio = 16384
[10:19] <DanaG> that's with linebreaks removed, to avoid pastespam.
[10:20] <RAOF> Thar you go.
[10:21] <DanaG> Block size=4096 (log=2)        Fragment size=4096 (log=2)        22814720 inodes, 91247191 blocks        4562359 blocks (5.00%) reserved for the super user        First data block=0        Maximum filesystem blocks=0        2785 block groups        32768 blocks per group, 32768 fragments per group        8192 inodes per group        Superblock backups stored on blocks:         	32768, 98304, 163840, 229376, 294912, 819200, 884736, 1605
[10:22] <DanaG> again replaced line breaks with 8 spaces.
[10:22] <DanaG> 22 million inodes... will likely be enough, I'd say.
[10:22] <DanaG> If not, I can just remake the filesystem, as long as the systems are in good condition at the time.
[10:23] <DanaG> While doing that, I'm getting roughly 40 megabytes per second (over firewire, at the moment).
[11:47] <DanaG> !iscsi
[11:48] <DanaG> hmm, I see open-iscsi and iscsitarget...
[11:48] <DanaG> is the former only an initiator?
[12:20] <DanaG> yay, iscsi > vboxsf
[12:20] <DanaG> because the latter can't give bare access to things like hardlinks.
[12:21] <DanaG> (I'm working around the via-rhine suckiness by running the backup server in a VM at the moment, just for the first few backups.
[12:21] <DanaG> )
[13:31] <hyperair> iscsi?
[13:31] <hyperair> how dyou do something like that?
[14:06] <cwillu> what's intrepid looking like these days?
[14:12] <gnomefreak> cwillu: broken for most
[14:13] <gnomefreak> s/most/alot
[14:13] <cwillu> (I'd expect nothing less)
[14:13] <cwillu> anything shiny though?
[14:14] <gnomefreak> cwillu: no you wont see those changes for a long while, shiy is last to be added
[14:14] <Pici> I have shiny errors.
[14:14] <gnomefreak> shiny
[14:14] <gnomefreak> themes, pics, artwork is all added last
[14:15] <cwillu> gnomefreak, I considered gvfs to be shiney
[14:15] <gnomefreak> and since most of the first month was updating Hardy we got startted a bit late
[14:15] <gnomefreak> gvfs is ok last i heard. but not sure atm
[14:16] <gnomefreak> i rebuilt it looking for a problem but it wasnt in gvfs
[14:16] <gnomefreak> oh wait no it has bugs listed on it.
[14:16] <gnomefreak> i ran througha  few of them the past few weeks
[14:18] <gnomefreak> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=gvfs&search=Search+Bug+Reports&field.scope=all&field.scope.target=   have fun finding what ones are still there
[14:18] <gnomefreak> thats ~261
[14:18] <gnomefreak> most are crashes
[14:18] <gnomefreak> that i see
[14:18] <gnomefreak> take edge out of the link
[14:18] <gnomefreak> if your not running it
[14:19] <gnomefreak> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=gvfs&search=Search+Bug+Reports&field.scope=all&field.scope.target=   have fun finding what ones are still there
[14:36] <cwillu> gnomefreak, it isn't possible to get a 'date reported' showing under the bug search is it?
[14:36] <gnomefreak> cwillu: each bug has a date but to search by date no
[14:37] <cwillu> just want to sort the search results by date :/
[14:37] <cwillu> would it be considered rude to wget all 259 results to do it locally? :p
[14:37] <cwillu> gnomefreak, ^^^  (sorry to bug you in two channels :p)
[14:38] <gnomefreak> lol you might beable to use what used to be called bughelper
[14:38] <gnomefreak> cwillu: its ok while im here
[14:46] <Finnish_> I'm watching myspace-pages, and mozilla suddenly quits. What's this?
[14:47] <gnomefreak> Finnish_: in hardy?
[14:47] <Finnish_> Ibex
[14:48] <gnomefreak> Finnish_: than you should know better :( remove libflashsupport set PA to default and have fun. Finnish_ smarter thing is to file a bug after you try that
[14:49] <gnomefreak> if you see something broke file a bug if you cant figure it out yourself this is the fastest way to get it fixed if you can fix it
[14:49] <gnomefreak> this way i can fix your problem with firefox
[14:50] <Finnish_> Ok, I'll try, but first some caffee
[14:50]  * gnomefreak missing a few devs due to mozilla summit so i cant fix all bugs this week
[14:51] <Finnish_> BTW, what is PA
[14:51] <cwillu> pulseaudio
[14:51] <cwillu> (known troubles with pulseaudio + flash + libflashsupport)
[14:54] <gnomefreak> cwillu: PA fixes the issue with flash 10 perfectly and since he asked in her ei have to assume hes using flash 10
[14:54] <gnomefreak> libflashsupport is the #1 cause of crash with flash
[14:54] <cwillu> libflashsupport still has the same problem though eh?  just isn't needed at all anymore with 10?
[14:55] <gnomefreak> flash is #3 cause of ff3 crashes
[14:55] <gnomefreak> cwillu: some? it is a problem we are looking at getting it removed from all versions of Ubuntu
[14:56] <cwillu> some?
[14:56] <gnomefreak> we are also gonna wait for flash10 final before trying that backport again
[14:56] <gnomefreak> oh you said same
[14:56] <gnomefreak> sorry
[14:56] <cwillu> had me all confused there
[14:56] <gnomefreak> not needed with 9 either
[14:57] <cwillu> without grabbing the device from pa?
[14:57] <gnomefreak> nspluginwrapper may need it that i dont remember but it will be fixed as well so it isnt used in Ubuntu. just alot of hoops to jump through to get it removed from stable releases
[14:57] <gnomefreak> Wicks: strickly a sound bug with pa vs. libflash
[14:57] <cwillu> no, I'm using nspluginwrapper without libflashsupport
[14:58] <cwillu> works fine
[14:58] <gnomefreak> cwillu: good than no stopping us atm but we will see
[14:58] <cwillu> what!? you don't want to aggressively push patches into 8.04 without adequate testing?  what's wrong with you!?
[14:59] <gnomefreak> when people get back from summit and i get caught up with them we will work on it some more
[14:59] <gnomefreak> cwillu: it was backported and i teested it as required
[14:59] <gnomefreak> i cant test 64 mac ect...
[14:59] <gnomefreak> cwillu: i have to go and get some work done
[14:59] <cwillu> ya, sorry for bugging you
[15:06] <gnomefreak> cw no bother i had time ot waste while getting info i needed to continue
[15:07] <Hobbsee> hmmm.  i wonder how i got libflashsupport installed again.
[15:08] <Hobbsee> i purge it, firefox dosn't crash.  woot!
[15:09]  * Hobbsee was getting really bored with it crashing every few pages.
[15:09] <gnomefreak> cwillu: i added it to our agenda for sunday meeting so i cant forget
[15:33] <Zdra> Hi, is there plans to install canberra by default in ibex?
[15:34] <Zdra> along with fd.o sound theme
[15:35] <bazhang> !info canberra
[15:35] <gnomefreak> Zdra: canberra is not a package and as for fd.o not likely since there hasnt been any talk about it
[15:35] <Zdra> gnomefreak: too bad :(
[15:35] <gnomefreak> bazhang: it has never been packaged under that name
[15:35] <askand1> Does anyone know the reason they have changed place on administrationmenu and settingsmenu in Intrepid?
[15:36] <bazhang> gnomefreak, just trying to be helpful ; my mistake
[15:36] <gnomefreak> askand1: gnome did that afaik
[15:36] <gnomefreak> bazhang: its ok you can have it
[15:36] <gnomefreak> bazhang: i just didnt want you looking too hard for it
[15:36] <bazhang> gnomefreak, thanks
[15:36] <Zdra> gnomefreak: is there packages somewhere for hardy I could install?
[15:36] <gnomefreak> np
[15:36] <gnomefreak> Zdra: not on intrepid
[15:36]  * Zdra searches for a ppa but I can't find one with libcanberra-gtk
[15:37] <gnomefreak> Zdra: that would be extreamly unsmart
[15:37] <gnomefreak> Zdra: good luck but it wont be a PPA and im about 90% sure on that
[15:38] <askand1> gnomefreak: I see
[15:38] <Zdra> gnomefreak: ok :(
[15:38] <Zdra> I'll have to compile it myself :(
[15:38] <gnomefreak> Zdra: either way that is well past support so you might be better off in #ubuntu-offtopic
[16:17] <Finnish_> I'm trying to launch remote desktop viewer, it shuts down before it starts
[17:11] <G_009> DBus error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.InvalidArgs: Mountpoint Already registered  -  devices and/or folders (even network folders via samba) mount with this error.
[17:56] <aguitel> how make numlock on in startup ?
[18:29] <parachutepop> i have my collection of artwork
[18:36] <parachutepop> www.gnome-look.org/.../search.php?username=dragoninsane&PHPSESSID=2d9d727fc262f915e203644e58139535
[18:37] <Dedi> anyone knows a fix for firefox + flash popping up alot of empty windows? ;)
[18:39] <crimsun> on what arch, amd64?
[18:39] <Dedi> crimsun: yep, is it something common?
[18:39] <crimsun> appears to be.
[18:40] <crimsun> no known workaround aside from using swfdec instead.
[18:40] <Dedi> anyone found a quick fix?
[18:40] <crimsun> which means yes, you need to purge flashplugin-nonfree
[18:41] <Dedi> no problem :) try that thanks
[18:41] <crimsun> and of course, you lose the ability to use flash on some sites, because swfdec does not implement everything flash does
[18:49] <Dedi> was a try woth, but seems too much dont work with swfdec
[18:49] <Dedi> damn nonfree stuff :>
[18:52] <crimsun> perhaps the situation will change after Flash 10 becomes final.
[18:53] <crimsun> (not the non-Free bit but the stability bit)
[18:55] <Dedi> hopefully also the performance :)
[18:58] <Finnish_> Any idea? I'm trying to launch remote desktop viewer, it shuts down before it starts
[18:59] <Pici> Run it from a terminal and see if it reports any errors
[19:00] <Finnish_> Autoselected keyboard map en-us
[19:00] <Finnish_> ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer?
[19:01] <Finnish_> rdesktop 112.149.171.***:****
[19:01] <Finnish_> That's the command I tried
[20:23] <aguitel> why aptitude is  command not found
[20:23] <aguitel> ?
[20:36] <Unksi> aguitel: its not installed?
[20:37] <aguitel> Unksi, yes
[20:37] <Unksi> yes, as in, not installed, or yes as in, it is installed? :D
[20:38] <aguitel> Unksi, need to install
[20:38] <Unksi> ok
[20:38] <aguitel> Unksi, you are working with intrepid?
[20:39] <Unksi> so thats the solution then^
[20:39] <Unksi> i am testing it atm, not more than that
[20:39] <aguitel> what is atm ?
[20:40] <Unksi> on full use on my (yea, should not) production machine so should get a nice picture
[20:40] <Unksi> at the moment
[20:41] <Unksi> i can install hardy back for temporary solution in state of emergency and have a full working system in about 30 minutes though, so its not that bad if it breaks when i really need to do something
[20:41] <aguitel> Unksi, for me is fine right now
[20:42] <Unksi> yea works well here as well
[20:43] <Unksi> only some kernel panics at boot sometimes, but thats not that bad as it has boot at 2nd try so far
[20:44] <aguitel> Unksi, detect wich device produce panic and use another driver for it
[20:44] <Unksi> hmm ok
[20:45] <aguitel> Unksi, maybe wifi card
[20:46] <Unksi> may be, intel wlan just got working at alpha 3
[20:46] <Unksi> 2 days before the release it was still totally broken
[20:47] <aguitel> Unksi, could use ndiswrapper for this card?
[20:47]  * Unksi grabs his shotgun for when the satan appears
[20:47] <Unksi> ;)
[20:48] <Unksi> no way im gonna try that again, still have traumas from the last time ;)
[21:51] <negge> is there any way to use another driver than vesa with my radeon 9550 card?
[21:51] <negge> I tried installing the fglrx package but that totally didn't work and neither "ati" or the "radeon" driver seems to work
[21:51] <negge> now I'm stuck with 1280x1024 res
[21:52] <crdlb> which isn't your monitor's native resolution?
[21:53] <crdlb> when you say "didn't work", what does that mean?
[21:54] <crdlb> that X failed to start, or that they didn't provide your desired resolution?
[21:54] <negge> crdlb: I have a CRT so there is no native resolution, but I prefer 1600x1200
[21:55] <negge> after installing the xorg-driver-fglrx package (or whatever it's called) I rebooted, nothing happened so I went to Hardware Drivers and now the driver was listed there (it wasn't before). After enabling it and rebooting Ubuntu warned me that it's running in low-graphics mode
[21:56] <negge> I tried to configure it but no matter which driver I chose it failed when I hit the Test button
[21:56] <crdlb> ok
[21:56] <negge> any ideas?
[21:56] <crdlb> uninstall xorg-driver-fglrx, and put Driver "ati" in your /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[21:57] <negge> I tried that, it started in low-graphics mode again
[21:57] <crdlb> is xserver-xorg-video-ati installed?
[21:57] <negge> yes it is
[21:57] <crdlb> then we need to see what the error is
[21:57] <negge> how?
[21:59] <crdlb> if nothing else works, you can stop gdm and use startx manually
[21:59] <crdlb> but hopefully you should be able to get the log from /var/log/Xorg.0.log.old
[21:59] <crdlb> immediately after trying it
[22:00] <negge> crdlb: I'll try it
[22:02] <negge> I don't know crdlb but somehow it just worked now:D
[22:02] <negge> I must have remembered wrong when I said I'd tried it, I know I tried using the radeon driver and atleast that didn't work
[23:04] <Volkodav> can I mount Apple's HFS+ whatever it's called?
[23:04] <Volkodav> fedora mounts it automatically
[23:04] <Volkodav> it shows as unknown in fdisk
[23:08] <Jordan_U> Any idea when restricted modules will be working?
[23:14] <RAOF> Volkodav: Yes, should work automatically.
[23:14] <RAOF> Jordan_U: Works now, doesn't it?
[23:14] <Volkodav> Had to mount it manually for some reason
[23:15] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Didn't last time I tried, I'll try again
[23:30] <Cecil> i can only get 2 work spaces when running nvidia 173, i'd like to have 4 for the qube effect
[23:30] <Cecil> (cube) dummy !
[23:34] <Dedi> Cecil: dont think thats a nvidia problem. you checked system settings -> desktop?
[23:35] <Cecil> im not sure i have, i'll give it a try, Thanks