[11:16] <amachu> test
[11:16] <ramadas> test
[11:43] <amachu> test
[11:44] <persia> amachu: don't worry: your network won't fail for 16 minutes or so...
[11:56] <amachu> persia: :-)
[11:57] <TheMuso> Greetings all.
[11:58] <persia> We approach both time and quorum.  Hurrah.
[11:59] <amachu> persia: TheMuso: elkbuntu: Hi
[11:59] <elkbuntu> hi
[11:59] <TheMuso> Greetings amachu.
[12:00] <TheMuso> Sorry I wasn't hear last week, my head still wasn't in gear after my travels the previous weekend.
[12:00] <persia> I'll claim that too (although I was actually asleep) :)
[12:00] <amachu> Belutz: Hi
[12:01] <amachu> lifeless: hi
[12:01] <amachu> zakame ??
[12:01] <amachu> Welcome everyone
[12:01] <elkbuntu> im also sorry, i had a badly infected ear (to the point it was bleeding, eep!)
[12:01] <amachu> persia: ;-)
[12:01] <TheMuso> elkbuntu: oh yuk.
[12:01] <amachu> TheMuso: thats fine
[12:02] <elkbuntu> TheMuso, the doc put me on the wrong antibiotics, so it's only just gotten better the past few days. i found some of a different type and self-medicated. bad bad bad me.
[12:02] <TheMuso> elkbuntu: oh fun.
[12:02] <Belutz> amachu, hi
[12:02] <TheMuso> So it appears we only have on applicant this time around.
[12:02] <TheMuso> one applicant even.
[12:03] <iang> hi all..
[12:03] <amachu> TheMuso: yes
[12:03] <amachu> iang: hi
[12:03] <amachu> We will start then..
[12:03] <amachu> ??
[12:04] <amachu> iang: Welcome! Go ahead introducing yourself and your contributions to Ubuntu..
[12:04] <amachu> elkbuntu: :-)
[12:05] <Belutz> amachu, iang is doing his evening prayer for a moment
[12:05] <amachu> Belutz: ok
[12:06] <elkbuntu> fine by me. coffeeeeeeeee
[12:06] <Belutz> elkbuntu, 1 cup for me please :-)
[12:07] <elkbuntu> Belutz, milk, sugar?
[12:08] <Belutz> elkbuntu, milk ok, not too many sugar
[12:11] <iang> Hello all..
[12:11] <iang> should I start?
[12:11] <Belutz> iang, yes please
[12:11] <TheMuso> Yes please do.
[12:11] <iang> my name is Fajran Iman Rusadi
[12:12] <iang> I am still a student now, studying computer science at the Universiteit van Amsterdam
[12:13] <iang> I don't really remember when I joined the Indonesia LoCo team. I just joined the mailing list
[12:13] <iang> (humm.. around 2005 i think) and make a lot of discussion in it
[12:14] <iang> when we (indonesian LoCo team) made our first release party, I was assigned to coordinate the ubuntu repository on dvd distribution project
[12:16] <iang> maybe because, till now, in every release, I make a ubuntu dvd repository and distribute it to everyone who needs it
[12:16] <TheMuso> yangDo you have anybody who has come along to the meeting to support you today?
[12:16] <TheMuso> iang: ^^
[12:17] <TheMuso> typo :p
[12:17] <iang> oh yes.. belutz attended it
[12:17] <Belutz> TheMuso, I do :)
[12:18]  * takdir too
[12:18] <iang> i think that is a very successful project. i never heard that "dvd repository" project before
[12:19] <Belutz> iang, what will you do if you become an ubuntu member?
[12:19] <iang> due the limited internet connection in my country, a handy dvd collection that contains the whole ubuntu packages is very useful
[12:21] <iang> i will keep making contribution in the community
[12:21] <iang> influence people to use ubuntu
[12:22] <iang> well.. maybe because i don't live in indonesia for some time
[12:22] <iang> i can only make "online" contributions
[12:23] <Belutz> for the record iang also maintain the ubuntu-id website www.ubuntu-id.org
[12:23] <iang> yes i'm one of the maintainer
[12:23] <Belutz> he also maintain one of ubuntu repository server in http://kambing.ui.edu/ubuntu/
[12:23] <elkbuntu> iang, do you do any translation stuff?
[12:24] <iang> (and fyi, this is my wiki and launchpad page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FajranImanRusadi and https://launchpad.net/~iang )
[12:24] <iang> elkbuntu: yes
[12:24] <iang> but not very active at the moment
[12:24] <elkbuntu> what are you most active in at the moment, in ubuntu as a whole?
[12:24] <Belutz> and his dvd repositories is very very useful in spreading the use of Ubuntu in Indonesia, almost every part of Indonesia who use Ubuntu is using DVD repositories
[12:25] <amachu___> Belutz: DVDs are the need.
[12:25] <takdir> and i like his project at http://labs.fajran.web.id/p/apt-web/ it's help us
[12:25] <takdir> if any body did not have a good internet connection and will download some package include it's dependency in internet cafe, office, etc.
[12:25] <Belutz> amachu, true :)
[12:26] <iang> at the moment, i'm busy in the BlankOn project
[12:26] <iang> an ubuntu derivation, targeted for indonesian users
[12:26] <amachu___> iang: DVD has all the components are the Ubuntu DVD itself
[12:26] <Belutz> ah yes, apt-web is also very useful for someone to download packages from internet cafes
[12:27] <iang> amachu: Ubuntu DVD only contains part of the whole repository
[12:27] <amachu> iang: ya.. ya..
[12:27] <iang> and the dvd that i make contains the complete repository
[12:27] <amachu> in a single DVD?
[12:27] <Belutz> 5 DVDs
[12:27] <Belutz> :D
[12:27] <iang> no.. for the hardy release, there are 5 dvds
[12:28] <amachu> Beutz: I also thought, might all thats essential for Indonesia in one DVD ;-)
[12:28] <iang> actually, i'm wondering my ubuntu doesn't make that dvd repository.. just like debian
[12:28] <iang> s/my/why
[12:29] <amachu> iang: Is that also available for download
[12:29] <iang> yes
[12:29] <amachu> all five DVDs? where?
[12:29] <iang> ftp://kambing.ui.edu/pub/ubuntu-repository/
[12:29] <Belutz> and also here ftp://dl2.foss-id.web.id/iso/ubuntu-repository
[12:30] <iang> kambing.ui.edu is one of FOSS mirror in indonesia
[12:31] <amachu> iang: thats great
[12:31] <iang> i am one of the maintainer of kambing.ui.edu
[12:31] <iang> and i receive many emails
[12:31] <iang> asking about dvd repository for other distros
[12:32] <iang> as far as i know, there is a guy from opensuse community team in indonesia who also makes dvd repository for opensuse
[12:32] <iang> so i think, this project is a success and really needed by people in indonesia who use ubuntu
[12:33] <Belutz> yes indeed
[12:33] <amachu> how do you people share it across
[12:33] <amachu> how do you send them to people wanting for it? ship it?
[12:33] <iang> yes
[12:34] <iang> it's not free, but it's very very cheap
[12:34] <Belutz> but they are free to download
[12:34] <amachu> ok
[12:34] <iang> only around $7 for those 5 DVDs
[12:35] <iang> just for covering the production and distribution cost
[12:35] <iang> and those DVDs are always free to download
[12:35] <amachu> what is Packaging Team Coordinator?
[12:36] <takdir> iang always send me dvd repo to my city, especially if there is ubuntu release party  :D
[12:36] <amachu> what role you play in that position for Blankon
[12:36] <amachu> ?
[12:36] <iang> I'm involved in the BlankOn project (ubuntu derivation distro)
[12:36] <iang> we build our own repository, well.. most of the packages are derived from ubuntu
[12:37] <iang> and i'm the coordinator of the packager team who maintains the packages in the BlankOn repository
[12:37] <iang> sometime, I also make a tutorial session
[12:38] <amachu> can you describe few jobs you do as co-ordinator
[12:39] <amachu> how big is the packager team
[12:39] <amachu> ?
[12:39] <iang> I have to get some team members..  and share my knowledge to them so they can also maintain packages
[12:39] <takdir> one of package in BlankOn is daluang. iang packaging it, http://code.google.com/p/daluang/ may be it will be an ubuntu package someday :)
[12:39] <iang> we also have some packages that have to be maintained and it is my task to distribute the packages to the members
[12:40] <TheMuso> persia, amachu, elkbuntu, Belutz. What do you say we take a vote? I think we've heard enough, unless there are any remaining questions...
[12:40] <Belutz> TheMuso, agree
[12:41] <elkbuntu> no questions from me
[12:41] <amachu> TheMuso: ya.. I agree..
[12:41] <Belutz> +1 from me for all his contributions and efforts for Ubuntu-ID
[12:41] <persia> I'm good.
[12:41] <Belutz> and I'm sure he will continue to give his contributions to FOSS world especially Ubuntu
[12:41] <amachu> iang: great job. +1 from me
[12:42] <TheMuso> +1 from me. I'm very impressed with what he has done so far, and I wish him luck for the future, and hope he continues to do great work for the community.
[12:42] <TheMuso> iang: If you want to get packages for Indonesian
[12:42] <TheMuso> iang: If you want to get packages for Indonesians into Ubuntu, check out #ubuntu-motu on freenode, we can help you get the packages into Ubuntu proper.
[12:42] <elkbuntu> +1 from me also
[12:42] <iang> TheMuso: ok
[12:42] <persia> +1 from me.  Lots of good work, and over a good period of time.  Strong prospects of continued work.
[12:43] <amachu> anybody left?
[12:43] <amachu> lifeless: ??
[12:43] <TheMuso> idle: 0 days, 4 hours, 50 mins.
[12:43] <amachu> lifeless: lifeless :-)
[12:44] <amachu> iang: Best Wishes!
[12:44] <amachu> any thing more from anyone to share?
[12:44] <amachu> persia: TheMuso: elkbuntu : Belutz : ?
[12:44] <Belutz> iang, congratulations! welcome aboard
[12:44] <iang> thank you all :) hope your support can make me to contribute more
[12:45] <TheMuso> Not from me.
[12:45] <amachu> others
[12:46] <iang> ah yes :)
[12:47] <Belutz> amachu, should we close the meeting?
[12:47] <amachu> Ok then. Thank you every one for participating.. Have a nice time..
[12:47] <TheMuso> Thanks all.
[12:47] <Belutz> amachu, thanks :)
[12:47] <Belutz> TheMuso, thanks
[12:47] <Belutz> elkbuntu, thanks, and thanks for the coffee :D
[12:47] <Belutz> persia, thanks
[12:47] <iang> thanks all :)
[12:48] <amachu> iang: Welcome! and rock more :-)
[12:50] <elkbuntu> Belutz, :)
[14:58] <mdz> #startmeeting
[14:58] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is mdz.
[14:58] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:58] <mdz> Keybuk: ping
[14:59] <Keybuk> mdz: I am here
[14:59] <mdz> Keybuk: are you feeling well enough to participate in the meeting?
[14:59] <Keybuk> mdz: I'm attending from sabdfl's other office ;)
[15:00] <mdz> I'll pretend not to know what you mean
[15:01] <mdz> [TOPIC] cdrtools
[15:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  cdrtools
[15:01] <mdz> Joerg Schilling has proposed that we should switch from cdrkit back to cdrtools
[15:02] <mdz> that's currently impossible because cdrtools isn't in Ubuntu
[15:02] <mdz> cdrtools isn't in Ubuntu because it was removed in December
[15:03] <mdz> it was removed because it was believed to be undistributable due to incompatible licensing
[15:03] <mdz> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/177154
[15:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/177154
[15:03] <Keybuk> has the licence issue been addressed?
[15:04] <mdz> I am presently discussing this with Joerg by email
[15:04] <mdz> progress is slow
[15:05] <mdz> I've raised three issues: 1. cdrtools restricts modification, which I believe fails to meet our licensing guidelines for Ubuntu (though it could go in multiverse, it could not replace cdrkit), 2. linking of GPL and CDDL licensed modules into the same executable, and 3. licensing of the makefiles under CDDL when portions of the work are GPL
[15:06] <mdz> Joerg does not as yet acknowledge any of these issues as valid
[15:06] <mdz> but says he is very eager to reach agreement with us
[15:06] <Keybuk> what's Amanda's opinion on this?
[15:06] <Keybuk> (note to public: Canonical's lawyer)
[15:06] <mdz> 1. is a policy issue which I think is up to us to interpret
[15:07] <mdz> 2. is dependent on the legal notion of derivative works, which is hazy at best for software.  Amanda has asked for clarification from a German lawyer
[15:08]  * ogra wonders who the heck licenses makefiles sepatately ... tsk
[15:08] <mdz> 3. hinges on whether the makefiles are "scripts used to control the compilation and installation" of cdrtools (GPL) or a separate work which is merely aggregated with cdrtools
[15:08] <mdz> the obvious interpretation is the former, so I've asked Joerg to explain why he believes the latter
[15:09] <mdz> so far, he has not offered an explanation
[15:09] <mdz> though I know he has had all of these arguments with other  distributors before and probably has plenty of argument to make
[15:09] <sabdfl> Keybuk: haven't yet engaged Amanda. Joerg says Sun's legal is convinced of his argument, and suggests FSF is too
[15:10] <sabdfl> if we are going to take it further i would hope to get consensus with SFLC or FSF and try to bring Debian on board, too
[15:10] <mdz> sabdfl: I have asked her opinion on a few specific points
[15:11] <mdz> but I think mostly we need to work this out with Joerg
[15:12] <sabdfl> can we make much more progress on this without a reply from Joerg?
[15:12] <Keybuk> my thoughts, not necessarily in a coherent order:
[15:12] <Keybuk> - software in main should be free to use and modify, thus cdrtools has restrictions that prevent it being in main
[15:12] <ogra> is there a technical reason that we dont want cdrkit anymore ?
[15:12] <Keybuk> - our primary upstream is Debian, Debian use cdrkit
[15:13] <ogra> s/dont/would not/
[15:13] <Keybuk> - if we fork, and use cdrtools, who would maintain it?  important since it's a key part of our CD building infrastructure
[15:13] <mdz> ogra: two of our own developers, and upstream, have suggested that it is worth considering
[15:13] <Keybuk> - Fedora and SuSE both seem to use cdrkit as well
[15:13] <mdz> and we need to resolve these issues to decide whether it is an option
[15:13] <mdz> Keybuk: and Mandriva
[15:13] <Keybuk> mdz: Mand-who? ;)
[15:14] <Keybuk> - thus I find it hard to associate a large installed base with "unmaintained and abandoned"
[15:14] <Keybuk> - cdrtools upstream has a long history of not being co-operative with Linux users
[15:14] <cjwatson> the GPL/CDDL linking issue also came up with Nexenta, and various copyright holders of GPL-licensed software said they felt it would be a violation of their licence to link with CDDL software
[15:14] <Keybuk> cdrtools bugs are treated as "bugs in Linux" and closed with comments like "use solaris"
[15:14] <cjwatson> so regardless of the outcome here we should take explicit care not to set a precedent
[15:15] <mdz> cjwatson: in this case, I think most of Joerg's code is CDDL, and we haven't heard from any other copyright holders
[15:15] <sabdfl> he says he has 80%+ of the code
[15:15] <cjwatson> mdz: right, in this case Joerg seems to be the primary GPL holder so it seems like it'd depend on his interpretation, but nevertheless, it is important to be clear that this does not represent Ubuntu claiming that the GPL and CDDL are compatible
[15:15] <mdz> ...which doesn't give him any rights with regard to the rest
[15:16] <sabdfl> he came across, in our meeting, as being genuinely interested in Linux and Ubuntu
[15:16] <mdz> sabdfl: he clearly wants his software to be successful and have mindshare in the community
[15:17] <cjwatson> mdz: (oh, sorry, I misread your comment. But the second part of my comment holds either way.)
[15:17] <sabdfl> he states that cdrtools is more actively maintained than cdrkit
[15:17] <mdz> when he changed the licensing, it very quickly became a minority as major distributors migrated away from it
[15:18] <sabdfl> mdz: yes, but he didn't seem willing to bend the truth to attain that, he seems focused on end users and making stuff work
[15:18] <sabdfl> cjwatson: so what you're saying is, it may be OK if the primary copyright holder says in this case it's OK, that's different to whether or not the licenses are compatible
[15:18] <sabdfl> ?
[15:18] <mdz> (I just got another reply from Joerg during the meeting btw)
[15:19] <cjwatson> sabdfl: seems I was unclear, I wasn't really trying to say anything about this case at all, simply that *if* we accept cdrtools we should be careful to state that that does not imply that other GPL/CDDL linkage is OK
[15:20] <sabdfl> right
[15:20] <cjwatson> sabdfl: in general it would require all copyright holders of GPL material to say it's OK, not just the primary contributor, I think
[15:20] <cjwatson> and then one would have to be careful to avoid linking in other GPL material from other projects
[15:20] <cjwatson> GPL+exception can be done, but it is awkward
[15:21] <cjwatson> [disclaimer: this is based on my Debian experience so I'm sure some parties would view it as tainted :-)
[15:21] <cjwatson> ]
[15:21] <Keybuk> sabdfl: this does not fit with my past experience of him, where he has actively refused to modify cdrtools to "make stuff work"
[15:22] <Keybuk> e.g. cdrtools still does not accept Linux device names for devices
[15:23] <mdz> whatever the legal and practical issues, it may not be worth the headache of dealing with Joerg
[15:23] <mdz> I have found my ottempts thoroughly unrewarding
[15:23] <mdz> s/ottempts/attempts/
[15:25] <mdz> but I will continue to try for a while longer
[15:26] <mdz> unless, of course, someone else wants to take over
[15:26] <mdz> my point of view is that he is coming to us to try to convince us to include his software
[15:27] <mdz> in which case, I think the burden is on him to be constructive and address our concerns
[15:27] <sabdfl> cjwatson: i think most courts would accept "substantial majority", especially if the minority cannot be contacted, but i'm not an expert
[15:27] <mdz> I've explained them as clearly as I can, but he seems to want us to convince him rather than refuting them
[15:28] <cjwatson> sabdfl: mm, I suspect the D-BUS guys would like to have a clear word on that at the moment, though that's a side issue ;)
[15:28] <sabdfl> i think we have an active upstream, doing good work, and we also have a strong ubuntu contributor, siretart, who's keen to take care of packaging and integration
[15:29] <sabdfl> so, that's positive
[15:29] <Keybuk> cjwatson: the D-Bus problem is that they can't contact the majority contributors, since it's a defunct company
[15:29] <sabdfl> the upstream is difficult to communicate with, though
[15:29] <Keybuk> sabdfl: the same statement holds true for cdrkit though, no?
[15:29]  * siretart waves in the round
[15:30] <sabdfl> Keybuk: is cdrkit widely believed to be of similar quality and activity?
[15:31] <Keybuk> sabdfl: it's in use by every distribution that matters
[15:31] <Keybuk> this to me implies both quality and activity
[15:32] <siretart> development activity is arguably low in cdrkit.
[15:32] <siretart> e.g. it does not support blueray burners at all
[15:32] <sabdfl> siretart: joerg says that cdrtools fixes all the open bugs except for 2 packaging ones
[15:32] <sabdfl> is that true?
[15:33] <siretart> sabdfl: I've explained him how to use launchpad and bug triaging. he triaged all bugs in launchpad regarding cdrtools
[15:33] <Keybuk> this may be a distorted statement
[15:33] <mdz> none of them are marked fixed upstream
[15:33] <Keybuk> since Ubuntu doesn't ship cdrtools, we have few open bugs on it
[15:33] <sabdfl> we could ask Sun's lawyers for their analysis. if it turns out that it slipped in under the radar, and they have issues, Joerg may be willing to simplify the picture
[15:33] <Keybuk> what is more interesting is whether cdrtools fixes the open bugs against cdrkit
[15:33] <siretart> for many bugs he acknowledged and claimed the bug to be fixed in a later version, some he rejected and some he asked for clarification
[15:33] <Keybuk> which we do ship, and is substantially the same codebase
[15:34] <siretart> all in all he did a lot of bug triaging work, in his usual aggressiveness
[15:34] <sabdfl> Keybuk: i think joerg meant that cdrtools fixes the cdrkit bugs
[15:34] <sabdfl> but... i  don't know
[15:34] <sabdfl> siretart: meaning, marking them "wontfix"?
[15:34] <Keybuk> sabdfl: to give an example of a recent Joerg "fixed it" comment:
[15:34] <Keybuk> Cdrecord uses a new libscg since August 2006. The new library contains
[15:34] <Keybuk> a workaround for the incompatible interface changes in the linux kernel that
[15:34] <Keybuk> caused the problems.
[15:34] <Keybuk> investigation reveals that he "worked around" the problem by deleting all of the code
[15:34] <Keybuk> and thus not fixing the bug at all
[15:35] <sabdfl> Keybuk: so, you're not convinced that cdrtools would give a better user experience?
[15:35] <Keybuk> sabdfl: I am convinced it would be a worse one
[15:35] <sabdfl> ok
[15:35] <sabdfl> siretart: ?
[15:35] <siretart> sabdfl: either 'wontfix' or 'rejected'. I have to admit that I reviewed only via email but didn't spot grave mistakes
[15:35] <siretart> sec, he calls me right now
[15:36] <Keybuk> (the incompatible interface change is the move to sata fwict)
[15:37] <sabdfl> i have been pursuing this primarily because:
[15:37] <sabdfl>  - i got the sense that cdrtools was more actively maintained, fewer bugs, better features
[15:38] <sabdfl>  - i figured that the licensing issues could be resolved between Sun, FSF and us
[15:38] <sabdfl>  - i figured we have active community participation to lead the packaging and maintenance
[15:39] <sabdfl> if the first isn't true, then there's no point in the work involved in the latter
[15:40] <mdz> sabdfl: cdrkit contains features, such as specifying the device to use by /dev pathname rather than SCSI IDs, which cdrtools upstream objects to
[15:40] <Keybuk> sabdfl: it's worth pointing out that about the only place we use these tools directly is in our CD build code
[15:40] <Keybuk> in the UI, we use libburn
[15:41] <mdz> sabdfl: I don't think there is any more or less community participation in packaging cdrtools vs. cdrkit.  They are based on the same code base, and equally interesting to most people who care about optical media
[15:42] <sabdfl> ok. seems there is a growing consensus on the "don't change" side of this debate
[15:42] <mdz> fortunately, the pervasiveness of USB flash media mean that fewer people require this as time goes on
[15:44] <mdz> ok, anything further to say on this topic?
[15:45] <sabdfl> nothing from me
[15:45] <mdz> I intend to reply to Joerg's latest email, but if the quality of the conversation doesn't improve, it will probably be my last attempt
[15:46] <mdz> this has been going on for most of a year now, and we should try to draw it to a close
[15:46] <mdz> [TOPIC] other business
[15:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  other business
[15:46] <mdz> AOB?
[15:47] <Keybuk> none from me
[15:48] <mdz> ok, thanks all
[15:48] <mdz> #endmeeting
[15:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:51.
[15:48] <sabdfl> thanks all
[15:53] <ivoks> \o/
[15:54] <zul> helllo
[15:55] <ivoks> zul: any news on that bacula patch for proposed?
[15:55] <kirkland> howdy
[15:55] <zul> ivoks: havent had a chance to look at it yet
[15:55] <ivoks> ok
[15:55] <sommer> hey all
[15:55] <ivoks> it's a trivial changre
[15:56] <zul> i know, Ive seen it :)
[15:59] <mathiaz> hello world !
[16:00] <sommer> yo
[16:00] <kirkland> howdy
[16:00] <dendrobates> \o\
[16:00] <dendrobates>   /\
[16:01] <mathiaz> let's get started
[16:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is mathiaz.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:01] <mathiaz> Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080722
[16:01] <ivoks> and rest of the universe...
[16:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Clamav and spamassassin in main
[16:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Clamav and spamassassin in main
[16:02] <mathiaz> ScottK told me that there are some more MIRs that need to be written
[16:02] <mathiaz> so that clamav and spamassassin can be moved to main
[16:02] <mathiaz> any help in this area is welcomed
[16:03]  * nijaba waves
[16:03] <ivoks> i've promised some work, but didn't have time yet :/
[16:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID
[16:04] <mathiaz> kirkland: got some feedback on testing ?
[16:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: I have instructions in the wiki page
[16:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootDegradedRaid
[16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: kees sponsored the patches to mdadm and initramfs-tools
[16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's a bit more to be done, to the installer and grub
[16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: but I have to shift my focus away from RAID at the moment
[16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: I'll write you a blog entry for testing it this week, though
[16:06] <mathiaz> kirkland: great !
[16:06] <kirkland> mathiaz: testing went well enough for kees to sponsor the patches ;-)
[16:07] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - I'd mention in the post that we're looking for tests on real hardware
[16:07] <mathiaz> kirkland: as most of your testing instructions have to do with kvm
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: hmm, perhaps
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: if it works in kvm, i'm pretty confident about real hw
[16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: but i'll mention real hw, with some caveats
[16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - but real hw is the real-life use case
[16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: anyway - it's just a suggestion for your post.
[16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, but testers have to be willing to lose all data
[16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: stacked encryption and lvm would be something i'd like other people to help test
[16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: and open *new* bugs
[16:09] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array
[16:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array
[16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: I don't really have time to write up complete, detailed instructions on that
[16:09] <mathiaz> kirkland: isn't there such a test case in the iso testing pages (stacked encryption) ?
[16:10] <nijaba> kirkland: If you do so, why not think of it as addition that could be put in the server guide?
[16:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, there are LVM and Encryption instructions in the ISO testing
[16:11] <kirkland> mathiaz: those need to be augmented to talk about stacking on top of RAID
[16:11] <kirkland> nijaba: it would be good info for the server guide
[16:11] <kirkland> nijaba: i'm a bit over-taxed at the moment, though
[16:11] <mathiaz> kirkland: so encrypted over lvm over raid arrays ?
[16:11] <sommer> kirkland, nijaba  degraded raid, etc is on my list :)
[16:11] <sommer> for documenting that is
[16:12] <nijaba> sommer: so I think kirkland's testing instruction might be a good starting point
[16:12] <kirkland> sommer: great, thanks
[16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes
[16:12] <sommer> nijaba: definitely... I should be able to help test this week
[16:13]  * nijaba hugs sommer
[16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - and up to now, this setup is not supported in the installer
[16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: or a least with a simple recipe
[16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: you have to setup everything by hand IIRC
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: right
[16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: i figured it out, eventually
[16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: but some comprehensive documentation, with screenshots, would be a brilliant addition to the server guide
[16:14]  * mathiaz nods
[16:14] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
[16:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
[16:14] <kirkland> (assuming we test it and it works!!!)
[16:14] <jdstrand> kirkland: (sorry for the late response) I'd ahve to agree with mathiaz about testing on real hardware. people have testing environments just like we use kvm, so I think you'll get some takers-- especially ones that care about this (they would likely test on real hardware anyway before deploying)
[16:14] <mathiaz> sommer: are you tracking somewhere the section you'd like to add to the guide ?
[16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: (eg the raid install we've just talked about)
[16:15] <sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidServerGuide
[16:15] <sommer> mathiaz: I think that's it... the wiki is being slow for me
[16:16] <sommer> yep that's the link
[16:16] <sommer> the "Confirmed" section has the list
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: great
[16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: could you mark the section that need to be reviewed ?
[16:16] <sommer> mathiaz: sure will do
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: so that they can be easily identified as a task for new contributors
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: I've also updated the instructions to update the server guide
[16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: and how to check out the bzr branch
[16:18] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#head-0ae127e06ffba31c94b458fbef6eb033e5d8461e
[16:18] <sommer> mathiaz: looks good, I've just started using bzr as more than a svn clone :)
[16:19] <mathiaz> we should try to get reviews to be sent via bzr branches
[16:19] <sommer> mathiaz: works for me... I also heard back from mdke, and he was going to try and update doc.u.c
[16:19] <mathiaz> sommer: anything else new in the server guide for intrepid ?
[16:19] <mathiaz> sommer: great
[16:20] <sommer> mathiaz: I've updated the Likewise-open section based on the discussions at UDS
[16:21] <sommer> mathiaz: other than that, the LDAP section has been updated somewhat
[16:21] <sommer> I'll mark those as needed review on the intrepidserverguide page
[16:21] <mathiaz> sommer: excellent !
[16:21] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
[16:21] <ivoks> that's done :)
[16:22] <zul> ivoks: so there is no need to change dovecot and apache?
[16:22] <ivoks> zul: no
[16:22] <mathiaz> ivoks: yop - with an openssl upload
[16:22] <zul> ivoks: sweet thats two off my todo list
[16:22] <mathiaz> that disable sslv2
[16:22] <ivoks> zul: none of our libraries knows wtf is sslv2 anymore :D
[16:22] <zul> heh
[16:23] <mathiaz> that's all I have from last week meeting
[16:23] <mathiaz> is there anything else related to last week items ?
[16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: I'd like to thank the community for a strong response on the call for help with the init script status actions
[16:24] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Add 'status' action to server init scripts
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Add 'status' action to server init scripts
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: you can see a ton of progress since last week on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InitScriptStatusActions#head-75448d0a482c28a007476b3be2394d9db3213662
[16:24] <james_w> kirkland: hi, I have a question about this one.
[16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - the response has been great
[16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks to your blog post IMO
[16:24] <macd> mathiaz, NeilW still needs some reviews on his passenger package on REVU.
[16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: lots of patches still awaiting sponsorship, thanks to zul for sponsoring a goodly bucket of them
[16:24] <macd> mathiaz, I think thats all that was left from last weeks points
[16:24] <kirkland> james_w: what's up?
[16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'll dive into the bugs filed today and sponsor them
[16:25] <kirkland> mathiaz: thanks
[16:25] <mathiaz> macd: right - I haven't read neilw reply to my email - it's in my inbox though
[16:25] <macd> mathiaz, and hes here as well
[16:25] <james_w> I got pulled up on to debian-devel a couple of weeks ago when filing patches in Debian becuase I wasn't following Debian norms for this sort of thing.
[16:26]  * NeilW waves timidly.
[16:26] <kirkland> james_w: how so?
[16:26] <mathiaz> macd: ok - I'll add a point about rails to the agenda
[16:26] <macd> mathiaz, thx
[16:26] <james_w> I saw that you have forwarded a whole bunch of these patches to Debian, which is great, thank you, but I wondered if you were not following Debian conventions.
[16:26] <kirkland> james_w: how so?
[16:27] <kirkland> james_w: i'm not aware of conventions that I've violated....
[16:27] <kirkland> james_w: I haven't seen any response whatsoever from Debian on the individual init script patches I've submitted
[16:27] <james_w> firstly, when filing a bunch of bugs on one subject you are requested to notify debian-devel of the fact.
[16:27] <kirkland> james_w: the initial functional addition of status_of_proc() was accepted into the lsb-base package, after a few revisions
[16:28] <kirkland> james_w: hmm, I've only filed 2 Debian bugs of this type, and one other person filed 1
[16:28] <james_w> secondly, slangasek pointed out in one of the bugs (not in response to your patch) that Debian might like to look at this as a whole, rather than individual packages acting unilaterally.
[16:29] <kirkland> james_w: that would be great!
[16:29] <james_w> kirkland: I don't wish to criticise you. I'm bringing this up mainly as I got stung with this recently, and I thought that you may not be aware of these conventions.
[16:29] <kirkland> james_w: there is a Debian policy bug against this that is many years old, actually
[16:30] <james_w> kirkland: I didn't know that.
[16:30] <kirkland> james_w: okay, thanks, i'll ping you offline about the best way to push this en masse to Debian
[16:30] <kirkland> james_w: let me get you a bug #....
[16:31] <mathiaz> james_w: thanks for the warning
[16:31] <kirkland> james_w: 2 of them... one from 2003: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=208010
[16:31] <james_w> that works for me, I didn't want you to get flamed for trying to do the right thing. I think it's one area in our relationship with Debian that may be a bit neglected.
[16:31] <kirkland> james_w: and this one from 2005: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=291148
[16:31] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:32] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Call for WP testers
[16:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Call for WP testers
[16:32] <kirkland> james_w: I have replied to the later, to no response in 1.5 months
[16:32] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^^ ?
[16:32] <ivoks> wp?
[16:32] <nijaba> I have a few white papers that are coming out
[16:33] <nijaba> There are on different subjects, such as automated deployment
[16:33] <nijaba> or clustering mysql
[16:33] <nijaba> before we go on publishing them, I'd love for some volunteers to proofread/test them
[16:34] <mathiaz> nijaba: where/how will you publish the wp ?
[16:34] <ivoks> nijaba: me :)
[16:34] <nijaba> they'll be published on the ubuntu web site as pdf once they are ready
[16:34]  * sommer volunteers
[16:34] <nijaba> as they target corporate customer
[16:34] <nijaba> whome have a hight tendancy not to trust wikis
[16:35] <zul> do they need real hardware or can they use a vm for testing it
[16:35] <ivoks> nijaba: i'd like mysql clustering and redhat cluster suite, if available :)
[16:35] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok
[16:35]  * nijaba blames his keyboard for typos
[16:35] <nijaba> ivoks: RHCS: still in the works, but I'll write you down for mysql
[16:36] <mathiaz> nijaba: for the testing phase, is there a list of available wp ?
[16:36] <mathiaz> nijaba: how should potential testers notify their interest in doing a review ?
[16:36] <ivoks> nijaba: if you need help with rhcs, ping me...
[16:36] <nijaba> mathiaz: atm, I have 2, 3 mores are coming, I'll inform the commuity when they are ready
[16:36] <nijaba> ivoks: I will point ShangWu to you then ;)
[16:37] <nijaba> ivoks: he is the one doing all the work
[16:37] <ivoks> nijaba: we already established a contact :D
[16:37] <nijaba> ivoks: great :)
[16:37] <mathiaz> nijaba: so as of now, what do you expect ?
[16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: should people send you an email in they're interested ?
[16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: for the mysql cluster and redhat cluster wp
[16:38] <nijaba> mathiaz: volunteers to test automated deployments and mysql clustering WP
[16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - they should send you an email ?
[16:38] <nijaba> yes, email would be perfect
[16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: great
[16:39] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:39] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server survey, Intel interested to partner
[16:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server survey, Intel interested to partner
[16:39] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^^ ?
[16:39] <nijaba> soren, as we are still waiting for IS to provide a host for the survey
[16:40] <nijaba> more people are getting aware that we are gearing up for it
[16:40] <nijaba> Intel contacted me last week, asking if they could join in
[16:40] <mathiaz> nijaba: in which format would this work out ?
[16:41] <nijaba> as we already agreed for RedMonk as an analyst firm, I told them I would haveto ask for your opinion first
[16:41] <mathiaz> nijaba: RedMonk - didn't know about it ;)
[16:41] <nijaba> mathiaz: I think they want to add a hardware related question
[16:42] <nijaba> mathiaz: we did not know the name of them, but that's whom the analyst firm we talked about is
[16:42] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so Intel would join in
[16:42] <nijaba> mathiaz: I do not know, what do other think?  does it make sense?
[16:42] <mathiaz> nijaba: we'd add a question about hardware, and they would ... ?
[16:43] <ivoks> it does make sense
[16:43] <nijaba> they would blog about it, allow us to use their logo... whatever we me reasonably think of...
[16:43] <nijaba> s/me/may
[16:44] <mathiaz> nijaba: as long as they can help us getting more exposure and getting people to take the survey, I'm ok with it
[16:44]  * nijaba blames his keyboard even more
[16:44] <macd> SOunds like very good exposure
[16:44] <nijaba> any objections?
[16:45] <ivoks> no objections, just be careful ;)
[16:45] <sommer> sounds like a good idea to me
[16:45] <mathiaz> nijaba: nope - the more exposure we have, the better :D
[16:45] <nijaba> ivoks: I know, I worked for them ;)
[16:46] <ivoks> nijaba: there are people runing ubuntu-server on other chips too, so no one wants to create impression that ubuntu is great with intel, but not so great with others :)
[16:46] <nijaba> ivoks: sure, I'll make sure their question is "vendor neutral"
[16:46] <mathiaz> nijaba: could you come up with the question you wanna add to the survey and ask for review here ?
[16:46] <nijaba> and if amd wants to join, they are welcome ;)
[16:47] <nijaba> mathiaz: I will, for sure
[16:47] <ivoks> nijaba: or sun :)
[16:47] <nijaba> ivoks: right
[16:47] <mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team
[16:47] <MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team
[16:47] <mathiaz> let's move on
[16:47] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] RAILS integration
[16:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  RAILS integration
[16:48] <mathiaz> macd: ? what's the status
[16:48] <macd> mathiaz,  waiting on passenger to get in
[16:48] <mathiaz> macd: IIRC there was some more discussion about the issue on rubygems in after last week meeting
[16:48] <macd> NeilW rolled a new package that contains the fixes we talked about last week
[16:49] <mathiaz> macd: NeilW: I'll review the passenger package
[16:49] <macd> mathiaz, I was around for most of that, NeilW can be more elaborate on what the exact issue is
[16:49] <NeilW> There are a number of things that Ubuntu needs to do to get Rails working.
[16:50] <NeilW> At the moment pratically everybody ignores the apt packages and just installs everything via RubyGems.
[16:50] <NeilW> That's for a few reasons;
[16:50] <NeilW> Firstly, the current Rubygems package doesn't place gem installed binaries on the path.
[16:50] <NeilW> So the likes of Capistrano just doesn't work.
[16:51] <macd> Most people use Cap to deploy/configure their apps
[16:51] <NeilW> Secondly the apt packages in place don't integrate with the rubygems database.
[16:51] <macd> So its a pretty important point
[16:51] <NeilW> So gem will pull in a second copy of Rails on top of the apt package
[16:51] <NeilW> and chaos ensues.
[16:51] <persia> Could apt-installed packages put something in the gems DB in the postinst?
[16:52] <NeilW> persia: That's how to fix it - but the packages we're getting from Debian don't do that.
[16:53] <NeilW> You don't even need postinst. You just install a marker file in a particular place.
[16:53] <NeilW> Gem will then see it as installed.
[16:53] <NeilW> Finally there is no real decision on how Ubuntu/Debian is going to handle the Ruby1.8 to Ruby1.9 transition.
[16:54] <NeilW> Gem is integral to Ruby1.9, but has been removed from the ruby package.
[16:54] <NeilW> and a new gem package created that handles both versions.
[16:55] <NeilW> unfortunately gem1.8 and gem1.9 don't really know about each other and they will clash if you try and point their binaries at the same place.
[16:55]  * ivoks waves... it's 35C in this room
[16:56]  * nijaba takes a slice of a well roasted ivoks ;)
[16:56] <mathiaz> NeilW: are you discussing this issue with the debian maintainers ?
[16:56] <mathiaz> NeilW: if so where ?
[16:57] <NeilW> I've discussed the point with Lucas who I think is trying to move Debian away from their current stance on Rubygems.
[16:57] <mathiaz> NeilW: we try to follow debian whenever we can
[16:57] <mathiaz> NeilW: great.
[16:58] <NeilW> Yes I know.
[16:58] <mathiaz> NeilW: however if things are totally broken we're ready to make changes
[16:58] <NeilW> I think you may have to take the lead in this case. My feeling is that there is an impasse.
[16:59] <mathiaz> NeilW: it may worth trying to describe what would be the proper way of doing things from a end user perspective
[16:59] <macd> Is there a point where we decide to no longer merge/sync a package from upstream and decide to maintain it totally at this level?
[16:59] <mathiaz> macd: well it depends on the situation and if we have the man power to do it
[16:59] <mathiaz> macd: gnome is such an example
[16:59] <NeilW> apt-get install rails-server
[17:00] <NeilW> It's my dream.
[17:00] <mathiaz> macd: but we have a gnome maintainer in the ubuntu project
[17:00] <mathiaz> NeilW: right - if you could start a wiki page to outline what it would be like
[17:00] <macd> I think we can stick that on the rails spec page?
[17:00] <NeilW> I thought we already had one? The Rails spec.
[17:00] <mathiaz> NeilW: especially the interaction between rubygems and the installed package
[17:01] <mathiaz> macd: NeilW: yes - you can use the rails spec.
[17:01] <macd> We have what changes need to happen, bugs filed against them, some packages rebuit to fix it
[17:01] <macd> not sure what else needs to happen here
[17:01] <mathiaz> macd: ok - so may *I* should go back to the Rails spec and have a look at it
[17:01] <mathiaz> macd: *may be* I
[17:01] <macd> I gotcha ;P
[17:02] <mathiaz> macd: I'll have a look at the spec page
[17:02] <NeilW> mathiaz: What would you do with such a description. How does the descision process work?
[17:02] <mathiaz> NeilW: I'll reply to your email
[17:02] <NeilW> ok?
[17:02] <mathiaz> NeilW: we should probably move the discussion to a public mailing list to get more input on that
[17:03] <mathiaz> NeilW: it would help me to grasp the problem - may be it's already there and I just haven't read the wiki page lately
[17:03] <mathiaz> NeilW: I'll reply to your email and we'll take it from there.
[17:03] <macd> can you CC server ML?
[17:03] <mathiaz> macd: will do
[17:03] <macd> and we can get it all on there
[17:04] <NeilW> Thanks
[17:04] <mathiaz> @schedule
[17:04] <macd> looks like were clear for almost a year ;)
[17:05] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
[17:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
[17:05] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add something ?
[17:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[17:06] <mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
[17:07] <sommer> sure
[17:07] <nijaba> If anyone is in san francisco next week, come and say hi at our linuxworld booth!
[17:07] <mathiaz> all right then
[17:07] <nijaba> and please accept my apologies for next week meeting, as I'll be stuck there I beleive
[17:08] <mathiaz> see ya all next week, same time, same place
[17:08] <mathiaz> thanks all for coming
[17:08] <sommer> nijaba: heh sounds awful :)
[17:08] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[17:08] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:11.
[17:08] <sommer> thanks mathiaz
[17:08] <nijaba> thanks fr hosting mathiaz
[17:10] <sommer> later all
[19:02] <technolalia> hi all
[19:07] <lukehasnoname> @schedule