[05:20] <BHSPitLappy> the recently-dugg intrepid mockup makes me sad
[05:21] <BHSPitLappy> http://willwill100.deviantart.com/art/Interpid-Ibex-Mockup-Part-2-93584910
[05:21] <BHSPitLappy> people actually believe that the closer ubuntu gets to actually being OSX, the better
[06:20] <darkmatter> lol.. os x clones are bad enough, but anyone that thinks decent graphical design is enough to make ubuntu even remotely better needs to be shot *hides*
[06:24] <BHSPitLappy> anyone who thinks that approaching OSX's design is synonymous with being more professional and polished
[06:24] <BHSPitLappy> like, I think people actually think that the idea is to copy osx, and that we have been constantly failing due to technical reasons or something
[06:26] <darkmatter> we've been constantly failing because most of the FOSS design teams cant tell the difference between metacity and a toolbar. I facepalmed over a deiscussion regarding a theme issue in a distros artwork/packaging channel the other day... so sad
[06:34] <darkmatter> but that being said, the linked mockup looks nothing like osx :P I doesn't look that great either, but not osx
[06:40] <BHSPitLappy> darkmatter, it's pitifully clear that's what was intended;  a brown, wooden OSX.
[06:40] <BHSPitLappy> panel on top, dock on bottom, dashboard widgets shown, quicksilver on display
[06:41] <BHSPitLappy> (I understand that it's gnome, awn, screenlets, gnome-do... but they're all pieces to a grander puzzle)
[06:41] <darkmatter> pfft.. it takes more than gnome-do and awn to make osx :P
[06:43] <pwnguin> darkmatter: do you have a blog?
[06:43] <darkmatter> BHSPitLappy: but regardless, 99.99999999537 % of gnome 'mockups' make me vomit. the rest make me scratch my head in bewilderment because they look nearly identical to current ui's but with a palette shift :P
[06:43] <darkmatter> pwnguin: nope
[06:43] <pwnguin> hmm
[06:44] <pwnguin> it strikes me that the most important thing then that you could do is communicate publicly what technology does what
[06:44] <BHSPitLappy> darkmatter, I guess the next step would be to close the source, lock it down and sell it
[06:44] <BHSPitLappy> then would we have osx?
[06:45] <pwnguin> i agree that a depressing amount of ideas involve radical changes suggested by people who don't have a good understanding of the status quo
[06:46] <darkmatter> BHSPitLappy: when did I imply locking it down or making it look like osx? I said its crap, crap, and more crap ;) of course, so is the competition, but we already knew that
[06:47] <pwnguin> heh. i just looked at the deviant art page BHS dropped
[06:47] <BHSPitLappy> dropped it like it's hot
[06:47] <BHSPitLappy> or stupid
[06:48] <pwnguin> ive seen much much worse wood themes from participants in this channel
[06:49] <BHSPitLappy> well, they definitely made it look "nice"
[06:49] <BHSPitLappy> but this is supposed to be the bold new direction ubuntu has been neglecting?
[06:50] <pwnguin> presumably, if its a bold new direction, then everyone's been neglecting it
[06:50] <pwnguin> and i dare say, release early release often
[06:51] <pwnguin> its easier to propose radical changes if there's an expectation that it will be rapidly improved upon
[06:53] <darkmatter> unfortunately there is no 'bold new direction' in currently established desktops, they've been around to long, with to much expected as 'norm'. radical and "better than now' changes are easy enough for the most part, but they wouldn't really be accepted with open arms. just look at the hate-mail regarding the changes made to the windows ui ;)
[06:53] <darkmatter> If you want radical, sweeping changes start a new DE xD
[06:54] <pwnguin> heh
[06:54] <pwnguin> switch to enlightenmentbuntu
[06:55] <BHSPitLappy> if we want to really blaze a new trail
[06:55] <BHSPitLappy> we need to make the arrow cursor point down
[06:55] <BHSPitLappy> now THAT will turn some heads
[06:56] <pwnguin> that's like three seconds in gimp
[06:56] <darkmatter> yay! then we can have a stable release in 2095 alongside RC 1 of DR!& :P
[06:56] <BHSPitLappy> you mean it's an elegant change
[06:56] <pwnguin> go make human-cursor-painful right now if you like
[06:56] <darkmatter> DR17* <-- damn typo
[06:56] <BHSPitLappy> well
[06:56] <BHSPitLappy> if we're seriously going on with the Human theme, our mouse cursor needs to be a photo of a human finger
[06:57] <BHSPitLappy> rendered actual-size on the screen
[06:57] <pwnguin> why
[06:57] <BHSPitLappy> because it's HIG you imbecile
[06:57] <BHSPitLappy> whatever that means
[06:58] <darkmatter> and the theme buttons need to be b00beez :o
[06:58] <BHSPitLappy> darkmatter, we've moved on since Warty
[06:58] <pwnguin> well im only going to absorb so much negativity from this channel
[06:58] <darkmatter> because usability studies have shown people are more apt to push thigs that look relatively soft and pliable :P
[06:59] <BHSPitLappy> pwnguin, then I'm afraid there is little more you can learn from us.
[06:59] <BHSPitLappy> come back when you're ready to expand your horizons
[07:00] <pwnguin> BHSPitLappy: do you have a different proposal for intrepid?
[07:01] <BHSPitLappy> pwnguin, no, but it probably would involve lolcats
[07:01] <darkmatter> and stoned chipmunks
[07:02] <pwnguin> then why is it that *I* need to go away?
[07:04] <darkmatter> I believe the answer is 'because'
[07:04] <BHSPitLappy> pwnguin, chill
[07:05] <pwnguin> dont waste my time
[07:05] <BHSPitLappy> pwnguin, I believe you pulled that trigger yourself when you decided to use IRC :P
[07:06] <pwnguin> then you fundamentally misunderstand the power of irc
[07:06] <pwnguin> and im starting to believe i fundamentally underestimate the power of /ignore
[07:07] <BHSPitLappy> I fundamentally believe you're throwing a tantrum
[07:09] <darkmatter> I fundamentally believe I need to ROFL
[07:29] <DanaG> random: http://www.skinit.com/skins/Miscellaneous_Designs/animal_prints&resourceId=1840
[07:29] <DanaG> Heh, make a laptop look like animal skin.
[07:35] <darkmatter> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1078/1440816460_88c823c55e_o.jpg <-- RAWRRR!
[07:46] <pwnguin> DanaG: your skinit url didnt work?
[07:51] <DanaG> Worked for me.
[07:51] <DanaG> Odd.
[07:51] <DanaG> http://www.skinit.com/skins/Miscellaneous_Designs/animal_prints
[17:59] <xanax`> hello
[18:00] <vadi2> hello
[19:25] <xanax`> hi thorwil
[19:25] <thorwil> hi xanax`
[19:26] <xanax`> I just posted a comment on your blog about the "circle of friends icon" of ubuntu brainstorm help 3
[19:26] <xanax`> nice work
[19:26] <thorwil> thanks
[19:27] <thorwil> hmm, wordpress must be lagging
[19:34] <thorwil> xanax`: something went wrong, it seems
[19:34] <thorwil> no comment
[19:36] <xanax`> :(
[19:36] <xanax`> maybe my nickname was considered as spam
[19:36] <xanax`> xanax..
[19:42] <thorwil> indeed
[19:43]  * thorwil despams
[19:44]  * xanax` sent the same message with another name
[19:44] <thorwil> xanax`: thank you. sorry about that. after a few times, i stopped checking "caught spam" for i never saw a false positive
[19:44] <thorwil> "Akismet has caught 2,895 spam for you since you first installed it."
[19:45] <xanax`> it's a positive one imo. it's just my nick that doesn't help me sending messages on blogs..
[19:45] <thorwil> compare with 183 valid comments ...
[19:45] <thorwil> xanax`: switch to notxanax ;)
[19:45] <xanax`> hehe
[19:45] <xanax`> hmm why not.
[19:46] <xanax`> oops
[19:46] <thorwil> actually, likely to trigger, too
[19:46] <xanax`> now that I sent another message with another name, both look similar..
[19:47] <thorwil> deleted the first one
[19:47] <xanax`> thanks
[19:48] <thorwil> we don't want to inflate my ego with double posts, right? ;)
[19:48] <xanax`> no, we don't. :)
[19:49] <xanax`> out of context question : is gmail a good mailbox ? I hesitate registering..
[19:49] <vadi2> pretty nice. haven't worried about deleting anything because of space limitations since I started it :)
[19:49] <thorwil> i only know that gmail seems to make it difficult to behave well on mailing lists :/
[19:50] <_MMA_> hehe
[19:51] <thorwil> _MMA_: i really wonder what it is about that list, as i see no such happenings elsewhere
[19:51] <_MMA_> I've given up. I'll be leaving soon. Once Ken gets ubuntu-artwork-devel up Ill go there. I need a more serious place.
[19:54] <thorwil> _MMA_: maybe it should be called ubuntu-artwork-fascist-edition ;)
[19:55] <_MMA_> hahahahah
[20:00] <melat0nin> what is the current position with Intrepid's artwork?
[20:00] <melat0nin> there have been some gorgeous mockups on the mailing list in the last few days
[20:01] <_MMA_> They mean nothing unfortunately.
[20:02] <thorwil> well, maybe one or the other of the installable themes might make it
[20:02] <melat0nin> what does 'make it' mean
[20:02] <thorwil> but i'm pretty sure ken will have to supply the next default
[20:03] <thorwil> melat0nin: be included on the cd. next best thing would be an extra-themes package
[20:03] <_MMA_> melat0nin: Mockups are often not real. Someone would have to "make it" real.
[20:03] <_MMA_> thorwil: Yeah. It will be more of what we have now. Very little will change unless something drastic happens.
[20:04] <melat0nin> i liked ken's recent efforts, and they were installable
[20:04] <melat0nin> esp the one with the cool 'frame' around the windows
[20:05] <melat0nin> so is the intention to completely redo the theme with Intrepid is ...hot air?
[20:05] <melat0nin> :/
[20:07] <melat0nin> _MMA_: what do you think that drastic thing should be?
[20:07] <melat0nin> or could be
[20:08] <_MMA_> I have no clue. I only help in *little* areas that most people don't see. I spend my time doing the look and feel of Ubuntu Studio.
[20:11] <melat0nin> ahh, well that looks great
[20:11] <melat0nin> how did you Studio guys manage to get a cohesive drive to create a good looking OS, but Ubuntu doesn't seem to manage it?
[20:11] <melat0nin> i don't understand the politics
[20:13] <_MMA_> Because we're a project that doesn't have corporate interests in mind. Has a very specific target audience and only has me to work on the art. (kinda)
[20:13] <melat0nin> hmmm
[20:14] <_MMA_> I've had help here and there but its that I make the decisions and impliment whatever has been planed.
[20:14] <_MMA_> *﻿implement
[20:15] <melat0nin> does ubuntu have a similar figure who is a guiding force?
[20:15] <melat0nin> everything seems to piecemeal at the moment, from what i can tell
[20:15] <thorwil> melat0nin: mark shuttleworth has the final say, but refuses to set any but the most vague guidelines. anyone we some experience will stay the hell out of this theming business, because you have a client you rarely even get to talk to
[20:16] <vadi2> that's interesting, I read the opposite thing in an intreview...
[20:16] <melat0nin> thorwil: but he himself said he would like the ubuntu desktop experience to surpass os x, so surely he should be more active in this?
[20:16] <_MMA_> thorwil: Well, it's that he wants something truly mind-blowing that actually works. Most people don't put the time into making the mock-ups reality.
[20:16] <thorwil> he seems to hope for some leader(s) to emerge from the masses
[20:16] <melat0nin> particularly since time is running out on the intrepid release...
[20:16] <vadi2> (something along the lines ubuntu not really having it's art orgnized)
[20:17] <melat0nin> who is ken, out of interest?
[20:17] <_MMA_> It's a mix of issues as to why the art is the way it is.
[20:17] <melat0nin> those working themes on the mailing list seemed to be a big step forward from just mockups/talk
[20:18] <_MMA_> And if Mark doesn't like them one is only left with packaging it for possible inclusion in Ubuntu but not default. Some hate that idea. Some don't care to get it packaged.
[20:19] <thorwil> melat0nin: ken = kenneth wimer, art director. kwwii here
[20:19] <melat0nin> ah, thanks
[20:19] <thorwil> except if you meant another ken from the list
[20:19] <_MMA_> It really takes someone with the initiative/drive to get it done. Most don't have it.
[20:19] <melat0nin> whichever ken made those cool working themes
[20:19] <melat0nin> surely the 'art director' should direct the artwork?
[20:19] <_MMA_> That's Ken V.
[20:19] <melat0nin> (!)
[20:20] <_MMA_> You would think. But that's not how it works around here.
[20:20] <melat0nin> so what does he do?
[20:21] <_MMA_> Packages art and tries to do what Mark wants.
[20:21]  * melat0nin sighs
[20:25] <_MMA_> There's other things thrown in there but not that people readily see.
[21:05] <melat0nin> i'm sure it has been proposed before, but would it be worth having a democratic system whereby the community can vote on mockups etc, and therefore give momentum to their work and an impetus to continue towards working themes
[21:05] <melat0nin> brainstorm could be modified for this quite easily
[21:14] <thorwil> melat0nin: make a list of great examples of artwork. go through it and think how much any of them had to do with democracy
[21:14] <thorwil> good night :)
[21:16] <melat0nin> fair point
[21:16] <melat0nin> but it might break the stalemate if a particular mockup/theme has x thousand votes behind it
[21:16] <melat0nin> for designer morale, if nothing else