[15:03] <jjesse> nixternal: in the kubuntu-docs intrepid branch do we even need the kubuntu-kde3 folder?
[15:04] <nixternal> jjesse: I would say no....mdke and I talked yesterday about restructuring them like everyone else. If you want to take a look at that, go ahead, otherwise I can do it here in a bit
[15:05] <jjesse> nixternal: you can i'm just starting to poke againat the docs
[15:05] <nixternal> ok, I will work on that later on then
[15:05] <nixternal> right now I am working on restructuring our Yum server at work
[15:06] <flaccid> whats the future of kubuntu documentation? how can i point users in #kubuntu to the doco they need specific to kubuntu ?
[15:06] <jjesse> flaccid: what do you mean by that?
[15:06] <jjesse> it gets updated every release
[15:06] <nixternal> they can wait for kde4 docs
[15:07] <jjesse> official ubuntu book uses kde4
[15:07] <flaccid> its mainly ubuntu/gnome doco
[15:07] <jjesse> chapter 7 is kubuntu-kde4
[15:07] <nixternal> hrmm, seems that the docs I had on the web page are not there now after the site upgrade
[15:08] <nixternal> looks like I will have to get those back up eventually
[15:08] <flaccid> jjesse: link please
[15:08] <nixternal> amazon.com :P
[15:08] <nixternal> feed the starving artists :)
[15:08] <nixternal> err, authors
[15:08] <jjesse> too bad we don't get a cut of each sale
[15:08] <flaccid> im not sure. i want to make a brief site map on the kubuntu doco
[15:08] <brousch> jjesse, why not?
[15:08] <jjesse> brousch: we got a one time payment
[15:09] <nixternal> brousch: not part of the deal unfortunately
[15:09] <flaccid> if im a kubuntu user, what is the link for the doco ?
[15:09] <jjesse> agreed
[15:09] <jjesse> help.ubuntu.com
[15:09] <nixternal> flaccid: help:/kubuntu
[15:09] <flaccid> thats ubuntu, not kubuntu, it gives instructions that are not in kubuntu
[15:09] <nixternal> in konqueror
[15:09] <jjesse> http://www.amazon.com/Official-Ubuntu-Book-Benjamin-Mako/dp/0137136684/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217945331&sr=8-1
[15:09] <nixternal> it is the same documentation...every user has the documentation installed locally on their machine
[15:10] <jjesse> flaccid: at help.ubuntu.com you shold be able to access the same documetnation that is in the khelpcenter
[15:10] <flaccid> nixternal: unfortunately not many if any users in #kubuntu know this
[15:10] <nixternal> there is also Help in KMenu
[15:10] <jjesse> do they not click on Help?
[15:10] <nixternal> same docs
[15:10] <nixternal> except for KDE 4...there aren't any Kubuntu KDE4 docs yet
[15:10] <jjesse> flaccid: btw feel free to help write the docs
[15:11] <flaccid> nixternal: that url returns:  There is no documentation available for /kubuntu.
[15:11] <brousch> Maybe they are used to Microsoft's unhelpful Help sections
[15:11] <jjesse> what version of kubuntu are you using?
[15:11] <flaccid> they are used to URLs on the web.
[15:11] <flaccid> im on hardy
[15:11] <nixternal> KDE3 or KDE4?
[15:11] <jjesse> kde3 or  kde4
[15:11] <flaccid> kde3 atm
[15:11] <jjesse> there are no kde4 docs
[15:12] <flaccid> people want kubuntu specific doco which doesn't exist
[15:12] <jjesse> there are specific kde 3 kubuntu documentation
[15:13] <flaccid> well so people want nvidia video driver, the factoid is !nvidia and they get https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto which is not kubuntu at all
[15:13] <nixternal> help:/kubuntu/index/
[15:13] <nixternal> hrmm, dunno why that changed
[15:13] <flaccid> this difference in environements has never been catered for
[15:14] <jjesse> mdke: is there a way to add the kubuntu docs to help.ubuntu.com?
[15:14] <flaccid> nixternal: doesn't matter, not many people in the community know about it or use it..
[15:14] <nixternal> there is still Help in KMenu
[15:14] <jjesse> so you could start to change it
[15:14] <flaccid> the help is crap.
[15:14] <jjesse> either update the page for kubuntu or provide a new link for kubuntu
[15:14] <nixternal> there is google, there is help.ubuntu.com/community, and plenty of blogs out there
[15:14] <jjesse> flaccid: the help is written by nixternal and myself so watch out
[15:15] <flaccid> jjesse: im aware of that :)
[15:15] <jjesse> and if you odn't like the current help documents you can start writing them as well
[15:15] <nixternal> and if they have nvidia, there is this utility called jockey that lets you know in kicker that proprietary drivers are available
[15:15] <duncan-nz> jjesse, there's a bit more to it than that
[15:15] <flaccid> jjesse: i started writing them about a year ago or so
[15:15] <jjesse> duncan-nz: explain?
[15:15] <flaccid> nixternal: update  it then
[15:15] <nixternal> hrmm
[15:15]  * nixternal goes back to real work
[15:16]  * flaccid yawns
[15:16] <duncan-nz> jjesse, the distance from having something to contribute to ubuntu documentation and actually doing it is quite complex.
[15:16] <flaccid> nixternal: if i was to ask you where the kubuntu official documentation was, where would you tell it it would be ?
[15:16] <nixternal> KMenu -> Help
[15:16] <jjesse> duncan-nz: really?  you look at a document, email the maling list on a problem and it gets changed
[15:16] <jjesse> or you checkout the source and then change it yourself
[15:17] <jjesse> when istarted doing doucmentation i didn't know poop about docbook
[15:17] <nixternal> file a bug, write the docs yourself, fix the docs yourself and send us a patch...very easy
[15:17] <flaccid> nixternal: ok. thats an uncontextual load of ****
[15:17] <nixternal> we had about 20 people who had never written a doc before, never coded before, join up a couple of months back and rocked out on docs..so it isn't all that complex
[15:17] <flaccid> but thanks the same
[15:17] <jjesse> when i started kubuntu docs i emailedthe mailing list and that was it
[15:17] <jjesse> then i started looking at the source and following what it looked lke
[15:18] <jjesse> its not that complicated
[15:18] <jjesse> trust me i did it
[15:18] <nixternal> flaccid: your attitude isn't what I feel like dealing with today...if you don't like the docs, help fix them, otherwise don't bitch about it and ask me stupid ass questions, because all you do is piss me off and make me not give two shits about you or your document issues that you and only you have
[15:18] <flaccid> just fyi, i've never in my long history helped a user consult kmenu -> help. doesnt that say something ?
[15:18] <duncan-nz> (... sorry watching the wrong channel)
[15:18] <nixternal> on that note, have a nice day...I have better things to do
[15:19] <flaccid> nixternal: i have normal users complain regularly, so its not me, its the community...
[15:19] <jjesse> flaccid: that sems silly to me
[15:19] <flaccid> silly?
[15:19] <nixternal> bugs.launchpad.net...if they can't file a bug, then they are to stupid to use a computer
[15:19] <jjesse> to never look at kmenu -> help
[15:19] <jjesse> its right there
[15:19] <nixternal> done.forRead();
[15:19] <flaccid> and its confusing as!!
[15:20] <duncan-nz> flaccid, try telling me about you're gripes if you like.
[15:20] <jjesse> i guess i don't understand why someone wouldn't look at "help"
[15:20] <jjesse> its right there
[15:20] <duncan-nz> We might have something in common ;-)
[15:20] <flaccid> because people are people...
[15:21] <flaccid> their behaviour is not what what we desire usually
[15:21] <jjesse> if no one is going to look at help why should i waste time writing it then
[15:21] <flaccid> lets not assume people are smarter than we think
[15:21] <flaccid> jjesse: because people like me have valuable input
[15:21] <duncan-nz> jjesse, it's prpobably not in line with the coc but I've always had the policy of remembering what my dad told me "never underestimate the human potential for stupidity and irrational behaviour"
[15:22] <jjesse> duncan-nz: i realize tha
[15:23] <brousch> Due to past experience, people are used to the Help menu being a confusing, unhelpful maze. It will take time for them to realize that it really is useful now.
[15:23] <flaccid> brousch: i agree.
[15:23] <duncan-nz> just a moment, son calling.
[15:23] <jjesse> how complicated is the help system?
[15:24] <brousch> I know that I always hit Google or wiki.ubuntu.com first when I have a question.
[15:24] <flaccid> a URI is also important
[15:24] <brousch> This is because I had never found the answer to my question in the help system, so I learned to just skip it.
[15:24] <jjesse> brousch: so we need to make the docs better
[15:24] <duncan-nz> (back)
[15:25] <flaccid> the help:// system is lax
[15:25] <brousch> jjesse, No, we need to let people know that the Help menu is actually helpful now
[15:25] <jjesse> flaccid: so how are you going to make help:// better?
[15:25] <flaccid> well i find the help menu very confusing and im an advanced user
[15:25] <flaccid> jjesse: im not.
[15:26] <jjesse> so you aregoing to complain about it but not help improve it/
[15:26] <duncan-nz> brousch, I don't agree that the help menu is better, unless we're talking about intrepid, which IU haven't checked out.
[15:26] <flaccid> i offered my idea about a year ago and it was rejected s yeah
[15:26] <flaccid> i offered, can't do more than that...
[15:26] <duncan-nz> flaccid, wrong - an offer is not enough in Open Source.
[15:26] <jjesse> agrred
[15:26] <flaccid> duncan-nz: it was according to the mailing list
[15:27] <brousch> duncan-nz, I actually haven't looked at it. I was just assuming that it is better based on jjesse's and nixternal's comments
[15:27] <flaccid> nixternal didn't like it at all because the system was 'topic' based
[15:27] <flaccid> well sorry the current system was 'topic' based so an authoritive manual was not needed or some shiz..
[15:28] <duncan-nz> all, I think that the whole docs structure needs a good strong dose of research.
[15:28] <jjesse> the topic based change was a large discussion
[15:28] <flaccid> well 1 definitive document would be enough but yeah
[15:28] <jjesse> and a lot of thought and effort when into the decision
[15:28] <duncan-nz> How do various people search for help, and how do we/you refplact that best in doc structure.
[15:28] <jjesse> and that decisoin was made for both ubuntu-docs and kubuntu-docs
[15:28] <flaccid> and the result is.....
[15:29] <jjesse> topic based help
[15:29] <duncan-nz> jjesse, I'm not talking about thought and effort and time, but actual research (I feel a blueprint comming on)
[15:29] <jjesse> sorry work is calling and need to get something done today
[15:29] <duncan-nz> ok
[15:29] <flaccid> kubuntu users geneally dont' even know about help:// let alone try to search it....
[15:29] <jjesse> post to the maling list
[15:30] <duncan-nz> jjesse, I'm having trouble getting mails at the mo, but working on it.
[15:30] <jjesse> duncan-nz: i will look forward to commenting on it :)
[15:30] <flaccid> i'll just keep writing my book
[15:30] <jjesse> anyways back to lurker mode :)
[15:30] <duncan-nz> flaccid, what book?
[15:30] <flaccid> duncan-nz: a decent book on kubuntu. i offered it to the project a year or so ago, but they were not interested.
[15:31] <duncan-nz> is it LGPL'ed?
[15:31] <flaccid> it doesn't have a licence yet
[15:32] <flaccid> nor is it released. but i always want to help kubuntu but its always a problem
[15:32] <duncan-nz> I see. Is there any reason not to throw it online somewhere?
[15:32] <flaccid> duncan-nz: yes because the idea was rejected
[15:33] <flaccid> its in the mailing list archives...
[15:33] <duncan-nz> sorry for my ignorance, but how does that stop you putting it online?
[15:33] <flaccid> it was rejected so i chose a different option for publishing
[15:33] <flaccid> "i offered, can't do more than that..."
[15:34] <duncan-nz> I'm not sure that you've answered my question. What's the barrier to putting it online. Do you need somewhere to put it?
[15:35] <flaccid> no i own servers. i won't put it online because of principle. i offered it to the project and it was rejected so i went my own way
[15:35] <duncan-nz> principles? oh. do you mean pride?
[15:35] <flaccid> its in readiness for a stable kde 4.xx ..
[15:36] <duncan-nz> (son's nappy calling)
[15:36] <flaccid> not in this case. i have to wait for kde 4 to get up to a decent level..
[15:36] <flaccid> np
[15:36] <flaccid> i offered this to ubuntu/kubuntu before i started authoring.
[15:42] <duncan-nz> (did I mention it was a crappy nappy?)
[15:43] <duncan-nz> flaccid, have you written down somewhere what you think is wrong with the current documentation?
[15:44] <brousch> duncan-nz, Is a nappie a diaper? I thought you were putting your kid down for a short sleep (nap).
[15:44] <duncan-nz> diaper (us) = nappy (uk)
[15:45] <duncan-nz> I couldn't get him to take a nap today. So he's playing next to me.
[15:45] <brousch> darn that Queen's English
[15:45] <duncan-nz> three years old
[15:47] <brousch> duncan-nz, Is he hacking on edubuntu yet?
[15:48] <duncan-nz> brousch, no, but my wife jokes about it. He has an old IBM laptop which runs windows 3.1 though. I'm not a fan of children using computers early.
[15:49] <brousch> Windows 3.1? Are you trying to frustrate him into hating computers?
[15:51] <emmajane> duncan-nz: at least say it's 3.11 for workgroups. ;)
[15:52] <duncan-nz> brousch, basically, yes ;-)
[15:54] <duncan-Zzz> (emmajane, no idea. I only run it for packman nostalgia)
[15:54] <jjesse> 3.1 was the one with a legal problem for disk keeper or something like correet?
[15:54] <jjesse> they quickly came out with 3.11 for workgroups
[15:56] <emmajane> something like that, jjesse
[15:58] <brousch> My 8 month old sees my wife and I on our laptops and he dives for the keyboard to beat on it. I let him give it a try at about 5 months http://ur1.ca/1q7