ubottuPretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 00:18:16 - Next meeting: Community Council in 21 hours 41 minutes01:18
pwnguin@now Chicago02:06
pwnguin@now CST02:07
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bazhangubottu is gone02:09
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amachuTheMuso, persia, elky , hi11:57
persiaamachu: Good afternoon11:57
TheMusoamachu: Hey.11:57
elkywho are we missing?11:57
persialifeless: zakame, Belutz11:58
elkyamachu, your internet was fine until you spoke!11:58
amachulifeless, hi12:00
elkyright, is our contestant here? :Þ12:00
amachumdamt, hi12:00
mdamtHello all.12:00
amachuwelcome everyone!12:00
persiamdamt: Good nick construction technique :)12:01
mdamtpersia: :-)12:01
amachuso we have lifeless, elky, persia , TheMuso and amachu here?12:01
* TheMuso is here.12:01
elkyhe's not in the channel12:02
lifelesssorry for missing last week12:02
lifelesswas jetlagged; week before was on a plane12:02
elkyhe  is online though12:02
amachugood, we have five among us12:03
amachuwe will start12:03
elkymdamt, do you want to introduce yourself and what you do for Ubuntu? we can fill zakame in later if he comes12:03
amachuelky, indeed12:03
amachumdamt, thats was a nice snap with babies :-)12:03
amachumdamt, there?12:04
mdamtRight, so I am an Indonesian currently living in Helsinki Finland. Been in FOSS world since 1997. Been doing some work for Ubuntu Indonesia, administring the mailing list, also involved in BlankOn project as one of Ubuntu Indonesia project.12:04
elkypossibly typing12:05
mdamtMainly I work for upstream: GNOME and MAEMO which are used in Ubuntu and Ubuntu Mobile.12:05
mdamtSo I guess that's all.12:05
elkymdamt, what ubuntu-specific stuff do you do?12:06
persiaFor Ubuntu Membership, we tend to look at contributions specifically to Ubuntu.12:06
elkyzakame, will pastebin, second12:06
mdamtFor direcly Ubuntu project I also involved in Indonesian L10n in LP.12:06
elkyzakame, http://pastebin.com/mdf5e41d12:07
elkymdamt, cool, how many strings have you translated (i hope this is correct translation terminology)12:08
zakamegot it, thanks elky12:08
mdamtelky: I've never counted it. As many of the translations in LP also came from GNOME which I did with others.12:08
persiaLP claims 381 for 7 Karma points, but it may not be complete.12:09
elkymdamt, so do you do all the admin for the mailing list?12:09
mdamtYes, I do the id-ubuntu mailing list administration (also with others).12:10
persiamdamt: In your testimonials, I see comments about you being the driver behind BlankOn, and possibly planning work with Ubuntu Packaging: have you submitted any packaging work to Ubuntu so far?12:13
mdamtNot yet. But I have some on my list already. Probably after my vacation ends.12:14
persiamdamt: Did you bring a fan club to cheer for you at this meeting?12:14
mdamtAll of them are missing :-)12:15
* persia is done with questions12:16
amachuBelutz had earlier recognized mdamt contributions, couple of weeks back when iang and mdamt were present12:16
elkysame. mdamt, i see you've done some good work, but im not personally seeing a substantial ubuntu-specific contribution yet. i'm giving a -1 here, and recommending you return after you've done some motu work12:16
amachuon 22-July-0812:17
TheMusoI agree with elky, but a +0 from me. You seem to be on the right track, but I think we need to see more from you in terms of sustained contributions.12:17
amachumdamt, remember I felt the same that day.12:17
elkyamachu, the key is ubuntu-specific. im not comfortable on making someone a member of ubuntu because of their work on a derivative, any more than a debian person would want me a member of debian for my ubuntu work.12:17
lifeless+0, I concur with elky and themuso12:17
e-jat+1 for mdamt12:18
lifelessI think both upstream and downstream work are important - at at the project level we acknowledge that work12:18
persiamdamt: I'm also going to vote +0.  Positive points for what looks like good work with Inonesian localisation, and previous comments from Belutz.  Negative points for not getting more upstream, and not having lots of Ubuntu-specific stuff.12:18
amachumdamt, would like to see more details in your wiki page, that shows references to contributions to Ubutu12:18
lifelessbut for individual ubuntu membership it needs to be ubuntu-specfic stuff that we are acknowledging12:19
zakame+0: I see translations going way back to 2005, but I think mdamt can do more :)12:19
amachuelky, I agree12:19
amachumdamt, +0 from me too12:20
amachugreat to see your contributions upstreams.12:21
elkyconsider this an encouragement to do more for ubuntu! :)12:21
amachuplease continue your good work, and hoping to see you back with a bang12:21
mdamt:-) Thanks all.12:22
elkywe know you do good things!12:22
e-jatgood luck mdamt !12:22
elkyi think he's all we had, no?12:22
amachuelky, ?12:23
elkyamachu, agenda-wise12:23
amachuany thing to be shared12:23
amachufrom anyone?12:23
amachuelky, persia, TheMuso, lifeless : ?12:24
TheMusoNot from me.12:24
elkyprobably encourage any countries not yet registered for Software Freedom Day to get registered and spread ubuntu on the most important free/libre open source software event of the year12:24
persiaI've a vague sense that we ought somehow be coordinating with LoCos to drive more agenda items, but am unlikely to actually do anything about it personally.12:24
elkypersia, i just make up my own ;)12:25
amachuelky, We plan to publish rms - Free Software Free Society on SFD12:26
amachuelky, I will do it, thanks for citing12:26
amachupersia, that gives me a vague idea too12:26
elkyamachu, cool. try not to scare the little kids with that ;)12:26
amachuthey have Big Buck Bunny to watch12:27
amachupersia, but we need to..12:27
amachupersia, but for that we have to be more than Membership Board. Isn't it?12:28
techno_freakamachu, ta_IN("Free Software Free Society") ?12:28
persiaamachu: Certainly.  I've just been operating in two-weeks-behind mode for long enough that I'm getting leery of taking new tasks, even when I have an idea that makes me want to do something.12:28
elkyamachu, BBB is sooooo funny12:28
amachutechno_freak, yes12:28
amachutechno_freak, in Tamil12:28
elkywe had it playing rotation at an expo here in sydney, and half of us kept getting distracted watching it instead of talking to people12:29
techno_freakamachu, kewl12:29
persiaI'm not sure it's "More than membership board" to occasionally bug the LoCos to try to get people to do more and become members.  If any of us individually go beyond that, that's the individual's decision.12:29
elkypersia, agree. we should keep an eye out for regionally-relevent things though12:30
elkyi should have been bugging people to submit for Linux Conf Au more, but I've been slack12:30
elkyCFP closes in 3 days12:30
amachupersia, personally we are doing that. hoping to see atleast two in months to come12:30
persiaelky: Regionally relevant events, etc?12:31
elkypersia, conferences in the region12:31
elkyspecifically ones which may have CFP where people can apply to talk about F/LOSS12:32
persiaelky: That makes sense.  I'm not sure it's strictly RMB, but there ought be some wiki pages towards which interested parties can point.  The presentations can then go on their wiki pages, and we can review them when the presenters apply for membership.12:33
elkypersia, i was thinking more for content sake. i'd love to hear more about the events that happen in the asia/oceania region. i generally only hear about them after they've happened, rarely before12:34
amachupersia, that would be a good idea12:35
persiaelky: That too.  I'm just trying to stretch it to be RMB related :)12:35
elkypersia, it's giving people ideas to help them, so sort of what you were saying12:35
* elky thinks through the local-ish events happening/cfp'ing ...12:35
persiaelky: That makes sense.  Want to put up the Events wiki pages, broken regionally?12:36
elkyfoss.in doesnt seem to have the 2009 page going yet12:36
techno_freakelky, they are still planning the event, will be out soon12:37
elkytechno_freak, excellent12:37
elkytechno_freak, good to know :)12:37
techno_freakelky, hope we can have you this year, we missed you last time :)12:38
elkytechno_freak, it's so close to another event for me, which is sad :(12:38
techno_freakelky, ohh :(12:38
elkywhich i've already been accepted to talk at too12:38
elkywe will see though, when the dates come out12:39
elkydo you know the dates?12:40
techno_freakelky, sometime around end of Nov or early December, depends upon availability of venue12:40
elkythat part i knew. the conf i speak at is dec 3-512:41
techno_freakelky, oh, will ask and confirm you :)12:41
elkypersia, sorry missed your suggestion. a noticeboard wikipage would be good12:42
persiaelky: Thanks :)12:42
elkypeople can add something they want us to mention12:42
amachuelky, persia, is that all?12:43
elkyi believe so12:43
persiaI'm done.12:43
amachufine then, thank you every one for participating12:44
elkyi think TheMuso and lifeless have been stolen by shinier stuff already12:44
elky+1 amachu :)12:44
amachumdamt, hoping to see you back12:44
elkyi trust we will12:44
amachuthank you and this time i have got an un-interrupted connectivity after a long time :-)12:45
e-jatlong time ?12:45
persiaWell, at least the entire length of a meeting: first time I've seen that :)12:45
amachupersia, yes.12:45
elkyamachu, lets hope you did not just jinx yourself!12:46
amachuelky, ;)12:46
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amachuam leaving now, bye12:47
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zakamethanks ll12:47
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sommerhey all15:59
Koonhey sommer !16:00
Koonwho else is here for the server team meeting ?16:00
* kirkland <--------- that guy16:00
KoonOK, I'll do my best to replace the incredible mathiaz, who left for a hazardous trip accross Canada16:02
Koonok, let's start !16:02
MootBotMeeting started at 10:06. The chair is Koon.16:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:02
KoonToday's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting16:03
KoonPrevious meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2008072916:03
Koon[TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting16:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting16:03
KoonWe have two recorded ACTIONs in last meeting16:03
Koonkirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array16:04
kirklandKoon: I have a draft, I'll publish today16:04
Koonkirkland: great !16:04
kirklandKoon: I set up my own wordpress account, and linked it to planet.ubuntu, so i'll just push it there myself16:04
Koonmore server blogging, nice16:05
Koonthe second action is nijaba's, not sure he is around16:05
kirklandKoon: I also have an Encrypted Private Dir blog post draft too16:05
kirklandKoon: I was waiting for the latest merge to make it into the archive, as a couple of scripts changed names16:05
Koonkirkland: ok.16:05
kirklandKoon: that happened overnight16:05
* nijaba waves16:06
Koonnijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team16:06
Koonnijaba: did you have the time to progress on that ?16:06
nijabaKoon: I am still waiting for the input from Intel on the subject16:06
Koonnijaba: ok16:07
Koonnijaba: keep us posted !16:07
nijabaI will :)16:07
KoonLet's review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap...16:08
Koon[TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder16:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu VM builder16:08
Koonsoren: around ?16:08
sorenYes, I am now. Sorry.16:08
sorenI've stumbled a bit on a parted issue that I'm trying to get sorted out.16:09
sorenWhen that's fixed, I shall be very close indeed to having Xen support in VMBuilder as well as KVM.16:09
sorenI mean, KVM as well as Xen support in VMBuilder. Not Xen support in KVM.16:09
KoonI seem to remember you wanted to write some very basic doc on how to get it / test it / run it16:09
sorenYes, that stalled a bit since there were a few things that were a bit in flux. Those should be sorted out very shortly after I get the parted bug sorted out.16:10
KoonOK, great!  We'll skip the specs assigned to mathiaz and go directly to...16:10
Koon[TOPIC] Mail server improvements16:10
MootBotNew Topic:  Mail server improvements16:10
KoonScottK is unfortunately not available but asked me to ask again for help on the MIRs16:11
KoonIf anyone is interested in seeing ClamAV and Spamassassin in main, it's a good time to step up16:12
jdstrand_it occurred to me the other day that it would be really great if we could have a clamd and freshclam enforcing apparmor profile16:12
mianosm1That would be in the main repository (suggested/requested at the moment)?16:12
Koonjdstrand_: that sounds like a nice idea indeed16:12
jdstrand_with clamav's security history, this would go quite a ways to mitigating its security concerns16:12
jdstrand_as I may be one of the people reveiwing that bit, I may even require it :)16:13
Koonmianosm1: yes, see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main16:13
jdstrand_I just wrote one for myself the other day, so I'd be happy to help ScottK or whoever in that regard16:13
kirklandI believe that we need an AV in Main16:13
Koonjdstrand_: ok great.16:14
Koon[TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID16:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID16:14
Koonkirkland: we already talked a bit about it in the actions16:14
Koonanything more ?16:15
kirklandKoon: no additional progress....  I'm going to work on a grub patch this week16:15
Koonkirkland: ok.16:15
Koon[TOPIC] Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home16:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home16:15
kirklandKoon: I will be publishing a blog post today calling for testers16:16
kirklandKoon: this item is ready for heavy duty testing16:16
kirklandKoon: it has been promoted to main16:16
kirklandKoon: and kees sponsored a merge yesterday, where I added a bunch of manpages16:16
kirklandKoon: I'm ready for testers!16:16
Koonme too, but we'll come to that in a moment ;)16:17
Koon[TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS16:17
MootBotNew Topic:  Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS16:17
Koonis my favorite Ante here ?16:17
Koonapparently not, let's move on16:18
Koon[TOPIC] Ubuntu Manpage Repository16:18
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu Manpage Repository16:18
KoonDustin strikes again16:18
kirklandKoon: good news on that front too...  Kees re-reviewed it again, and it fully passed his audit, full support from him on it.16:19
kirklandKoon: I have an open RT with Canonical IS to take over hosting it16:19
kirklandKoon: I set a loose deadline of end-of-month16:19
kirklandKoon: elmo is on it.16:19
Koonsounds great !16:20
* nijaba hopes elmo is quicker on this one than on the survey server...16:20
Koon[TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid16:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid16:21
Koonsommer: ?16:21
sommerfinished the Kerberos section, and it's ready for review: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/kerberos.html16:21
sommerI think that's the last of the big updates for intrepid :)16:22
Koonok, so you welcome reviewers now (as always)16:22
sommerabsolutely, the more the merrier16:23
Koonthat reminds me... I've a couple of likewise-open fixes to push to you16:23
* nealmcb suddenly remembers what time zone he's in....16:23
sommerKoon: cool, just let me know16:23
Koonnealmcb: \o/16:23
Koonsommer: on the AD part. I will16:24
Koonok, that's all for the specs, I think, let me know if I forgot something16:24
Koon[TOPIC] Call for likewise-open update testing16:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Call for likewise-open update testing16:25
KoonOK, so I've been working on likewise-open updates for Intrepid16:25
Koonthere is test branch up at Likewise with what should become the next version16:25
KoonI've been packaging that, there is a lot of nice fixes16:26
Koonbut also potential for nice regressions ;)16:26
Koonso we'll need some widespread testing before I can push that new version anywhere near main16:26
KoonA very fresh version is currently building on my PPA16:27
nijabaKoon: EtienneG is working on a WP on the subject, please feel free to feed him news and I am sure he would be a good tester :)16:27
Koonlikewise-open -
Koonivoks :o/16:28
KoonI've tested that domain join, leave, authentication works correctly, and I already patched two regressions16:28
KoonI'm especially interested in regressions, since that version won't solve all existing bugs (even if it solves most of them)16:29
KoonAnyone having been in contact with likewise-open in hardy and wanting to test in intrepid ?16:29
sommerKoon: I should be able to give it a test this weekend16:30
sommerif not sooner16:30
Koonsommer: that's great !16:30
KoonI'll do some more thorough testing on the very fresh ppa2 version tomorrow. Just take whatever is the freshest in my PPA at that time16:31
Koonlet's move on16:31
sommerKoon: do you need the gui part tested as well as the cli?16:31
Koonsommer: yes16:32
KoonI found one regression on the GUI (a missing icon)16:32
Koonnot sure there is much more regression potential there... but one never knows16:32
Koon[TOPIC] Open Discussion16:33
MootBotNew Topic:  Open Discussion16:33
Koonmacd sent an email to ubuntu-server ML asking for one more MOTU ack for NeilW's passenger package to progress onthe RubyOnRails spec16:33
Koonwhoever is MOTU, has some free time and interest in Ruby call help him16:34
Koonanyone else has a subject / item / beer to share with the group ?16:34
pschulz01I would just like to thank you guys for all your efforts...16:36
sommerKoon: have you tried creating a samba share after joining a domain with likewise?16:36
sommerKoon: just wondering if we need a AD integration section in the samba chapter when likewise does such a good job?16:36
nealmcbsoren: At OSCON I went to a talk by nat friedmanon that demo'd SUSE's appliance building web site - very impressive....  but it was still in a closed alpha or beta   http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/detail/472716:37
Koonsommer: yes, with mixed results (I seem to remeber a superfluous password query)16:37
nijabanealmcb: yeah, I chatted with him and Guy Lunardi on the same subject. We are doing very similar stuff, except that they are not planning to release their web based source code AFAIK16:38
sommerKoon: mmm... I was just wanting to make sure that permissions and stuff worked using AD users16:38
sommerKoon: I'll do some more testing with your new package version, thanks16:39
Koonsommer: there are a few important fixes, one of them is being able to remove likewise-open while a domain is joined without nuking your system16:39
Koonone other is the service not starting after a reboot issue16:39
nijabanealmcb: moreover, their supported juice (not the openSuse one) requires an activation code on a per parter basis16:39
Koonand the last one being a conflict with the current samba in intrepid16:39
nealmcbnijaba: too bad.  mainly I was thinking the slides would be of interest and the feature set they target is worth considering16:40
nijabanealmcb: sure, they are. I did not get their slides, did you?16:41
nealmcbthey're liking kvm more and more also16:41
Koon[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time16:41
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time16:41
Koonsame place, same time, next week ?16:41
Koon(mathiaz should be back!)16:42
nealmcbnijaba: I haven't seen them yet16:42
* nijaba will be in vacation next week16:42
* ivoks is at the vacation right now :)16:42
nealmcbthe slides should have been up on the web last week as I understand it16:42
* nealmcb is also vacationing16:42
Koonmy vacation starts next Wednesday so I should be there16:42
sommerno fair :(16:42
nijabaivoks: I'll be in the mountains with no laptop/network access, not even gsm :(16:43
nealmcbIrvine - classic sunny california16:43
KoonCassis - classic sunny French Riviera16:43
ivoksnijaba: uff... french alps?16:43
nealmcband next week in Flagstaff AZ - and I'll be here....16:43
* nijaba will be in Yosemite if it has not burned before...16:43
KoonThanks all for coming !16:43
nealmcbhmmm - oops - maybe not - somewhere in New Mexico....16:44
nijabaivoks: yosemite: california16:44
* nealmcb will ping nat for the slides16:44
nijabathanks nealmcb16:44
nijabathanks for hosting the meeting Koon16:44
nealmcbnice job16:45
sommerthanks Koon, later on all16:45
kirklandthanks Koon16:45
ivokslater all16:45
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:49.16:45
nealmcbquick meeting!16:45
Koonnealmcb: I like it quick ;)16:45
emgent@schedule rome16:45
ubottuemgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU16:45
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Myrtti@now Helsinki19:52
ubottuMyrtti: Current time in Europe/Helsinki: August 05 2008, 21:52:25 - Next meeting: Community Council in 3 hours 7 minutes19:52
Seveas@hug Myrtti19:53
MyrttiI got UTC and BST mixed up19:54
bazhang@now Taipei20:03
ubottubazhang: Current time in Asia/Taipei: August 06 2008, 03:03:04 - Next meeting: Community Council in 2 hours 56 minutes20:03
Myrttibazhang: GO TO SLEEP20:03
* Myrtti pats bazhang's tush and points bed20:04
bazhangtoo late Myrtti :)20:04
Myrttirockabye baaaby on a tree tooooopp20:04
bazhangoh wait is that sev?20:04
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SeveasRinchen-sprint, "Sprintchen"?20:09
Rinchen-sprinthehe that's me20:10
* bazhang waves to Seveas 20:10
nellery@schedule Vancouver20:11
ubottunellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU20:11
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dennda@schedule berlin20:41
ubottudennda: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU20:41
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pwnguin@schedule chicago21:59
ubottupwnguin: Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Aug 17:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 15:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 19:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu MOTU21:59
Burgundavia@schedule vancouver22:01
ubottuBurgundavia: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU22:01
Technovikingdoing two meetings at once (one in RL, one in irc), may be distracted22:03
ubottuSeveas: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 21:04:00 - Next meeting: Community Council in 55 minutes22:04
Seveasmeeting is in an hour :)22:04
sabdflevening all22:04
popeyit says 21:00 UTC on the wiki22:04
mdkemeeting is now22:04
mdkepopey: right22:05
Seveasah, fridge is off22:05
mdkeSeveas: when I looked at the fridge calendar earlier today, it was right22:05
sabdflwho's present, do we have quorum?22:05
mdkeyeah, it's right - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/155022:05
Technovikinghere, kinda:)22:06
Seveasbot's broken then22:06
mdkeelmo and Burgundavia are due, I think22:06
Technovikingelmo just popped in and out22:06
* Burgundavia is here22:07
sabdflok, then let's begin, elmo will have scrollback22:07
sabdflmdke: you're up22:07
mdkesabdfl: I believe that the first two items were discussed at a past meeting, although i wasn't around22:08
sabdflok, we're all agreed on your LP lists item22:08
sabdfli can raise the matter again with the LP developers22:09
mdkeI'm happy that doesn't need further discussion22:09
sabdflhave you noticed an improvement since this was discussed publicly?22:09
sabdfli think encouraging unofficial lists to be on LP is sensible, because it will make it easier to migrate them to being "official" later22:09
mdkesabdfl: I haven't been paying close attention; but I saw that LP lists are still being recommended around the place. I have been meaning for some time to followup on your email and discuss it with jorge/jono22:09
mdkeyes, agreed on the unofficial bit22:10
sabdflok, i'll start a new thread22:10
sabdflcould you turn this text into a more official statement from the CC, and put it on the mailing lists page?22:10
mdkesabdfl: sure, let me follow up on your last email and we'll take it forward from there22:10
sabdfli'll start a new thread to shotgun and make sure we've got coverage of LP senior devs as well as ops22:11
mdkewhat is the status of item 2 (Danish Team as legal entity)?22:12
mdkethat was also discussed in the past, I think22:12
sabdflit's waiting from a response from me22:12
sabdfli can't think of a good specific reason to say no, other than that it's not worked well in the past, elsewhere22:13
sabdflor rather, it has caused problems elsewhere, for Jane and others at Canonical22:13
sabdflbecause, when things go wrong, we feel obliged to step in and help22:13
Mezjust a quick interruption, the bot has been advertising the time of this for 11pm BST for some reason....22:13
mdkeI'm pretty sceptical about legal entities as well, myself. Probably comes of being a lawyer, but I think the variety of legal systems is always going to cause issues22:13
sabdflbut, in this case, the guys seem to have worked through many of the issues22:13
Myrttimerh, where are we on the agenda?22:14
mdkehaving said that, I think that without a strong central foundation for raising or distributing funds within the community, this sort of need will keep arising within local teams, it's going to be difficult to stop that22:14
popeyMyrtti: dk legal entity22:14
sabdflfundraising isn't the driver in this particular case22:15
Myrttimailing list issue went already?22:15
sabdflwe do have the Ubuntu Foundation22:15
sabdflMyrtti: yes22:15
Burgundaviadoes it exist as a legal entity?22:15
pwnguindo we have the ubuntu foundation?22:15
Burgundaviaand is it a registered charity?22:15
Seveassabdfl, the fr/de verein is working well, isn't it?22:15
sabdflyes, in the Isle of Man22:15
sabdflSeveas: see my clarification22:15
mdkesabdfl: but as I understand it, only as a trust, and not an active foundation in the same way as the Gnome foundation22:15
sabdflmdke: yes22:16
Burgundaviawhat is the Wikimedia foundation doing for stuff like this? I know they have worked through a bunch of the cross border stuff22:16
Myrttihm, I seem to have bumped into at appropriate time22:16
sabdflwhat sorts of things would be handled in a foundation, that aren't handled by Canonical?22:16
Myrttiwe in Finland are having same thoughts22:16
pwnguinsabdfl: nouveau?22:17
sabdflpwnguin: what about it, specifically?22:17
Myrttias a legal entity we'd be entitled to receive donations tax free22:17
sabdflMyrtti: yes, but it can also create as much in the way of trouble as opportunity22:17
Seveassabdfl, fundraising, sponsoring for hosting, sponsoring for releaseparties (in the ubuntu-nl case)22:17
Myrttisabdfl: I'm very aware of it - very, very very aware22:18
mdkesabdfl: it would provide a way for non-Canonical provided funds to be allocated and distributed in a transparent way, and specific teams (local teams) might be able to fund raise for their own activities22:18
pwnguini spoke with a nouveau pledge drive guy, and he suggested that the money could have been useful but none of the non profits were able to help them for various reasons; this has changed some22:18
sabdflmdke: it's not transparent by legal registration22:18
popeypwnguin: last i heard nouveau were awash with cash and needed developers more than money22:18
mdkesabdfl: I know22:18
sabdflthe transparency is a function of how well the specific individuals run the org22:18
pwnguinpopey: from who?22:19
sabdfland history suggests there's quite a wide std deviation in that regard!22:19
popeyi dont recall, sorry22:19
pwnguini spoke with marcheu in writing an article on the subject, and they seem to get by mainly without money22:19
ompaulsabdfl, a set of guidelines on what is required to maintain the backing for the use of the name, something almost that would have an audit trail and be open to audit?22:19
sabdflnouveau is not really related to this discussion22:20
sabdflompaul: yes, i think that's what we concluded last time22:20
mdkeanyway, I don't really have a feel for whether if there was an active central foundation, that would solve the local teams' needs; we should probably start by asking them, if it's a genuine option22:20
sabdflthat we would let this group use the ubuntu name if they reported regularly and transparently on their status22:20
sabdfland if they remained receptive to the CC22:21
Myrttiluckily in Finland we already have Finnish Linux User Group as registered nonprofit22:21
Burgundaviaso should we encourage the loco teams to piggyback on other non-profits if possible?22:21
Myrttidon't need to create a new one and also allows natural coworking with the people from other distro communities22:21
mdkeBurgundavia: definitely, if that can solve the problem.22:22
sabdfli would be delighted to have a well-run org registered, with public accounts, AGM's, and diligent reporting22:22
mdkepossibly certain local teams feel that they can't get away without a locally registered entity. If that happens, and if we are clear that the reasons are right, and it's been done correctly, it's difficult to object22:22
Myrttiwe did a great project again last weekend at Assembly demoparty, though this year there wasn't that many people from other distros helping with helpdesking the Linux users among the 5000+ visitors22:22
sabdflMyrtti: cool - i've wanted to go to Assembly for a couple of years!22:23
Burgundaviaso if they want to use the name, they have to a be a registered charity? (strawman for discussion)22:23
sabdflanyhow - here's the guidance22:23
Myrttisabdfl: was planning to invite you to speak next year22:23
sabdflif we have confidence in a loco team's standing, and they make a case for a legal entity, and we know who is on the hook, and they commit to regular transparent accounting and reporting to the CC, then +122:23
Myrtti(as you'd prolly bring cd's [we ran out of them on Thursday])22:23
sabdfli will ask Jono to maintain a list of the approved ones, and a schedule for their reporting22:24
sabdfland we will recall the right to the name if the reporting falls behind22:24
sabdflthis has to stay rigorous, or we *know* it will turn into a mess22:24
Burgundaviaby reporting, we mean the legal reporting any charity has to do?22:24
mdkeI agree 100%22:24
mdkesabdfl: checking the case for each team and so on is going to be time intensive; there are often teams which will think they need it, but actually don't. Perhaps the loco council can help us with those tasks22:25
mdkemaybe by providing an initial filter for applications22:25
sabdfldoes jono run the loco council?22:25
popeydefine run22:26
Burgundaviashould be document these bits anywhere so that we don't get spurious requests?22:26
sabdflpopey: chairwoman?22:26
mdkesabdfl: jono isn't on the loco council, afaik22:26
popeyhe isn't22:26
sabdflthen a second mail will be required, rather than tacking this onto the one i am already writing to jono :-)22:27
popeywe do seek advice from him on matters, he does give us some direction22:27
sabdflpopey: ok, ok, i can take a hint22:27
sabdfli'll mail you then ;-)22:27
mdkeI think that Jono and the loco council can definitely provide a useful filter for such applications, if they are willing, and have the capacity22:27
sabdflpopey: keeping track of the reporting is something that will be important to Canonical, because it's a trademark matter, i'm happy to delegate it to the Loco council if they are happy to commit to doing as rigorous a job there as they do elsewhere when firing on all cylinders22:29
sabdflfairy nuff?22:29
popeyfeel free to fire it our way, but the other guys need to speak up too22:29
sabdflok. will mail, let's mosey on in the agenda22:30
mdkewe'll see how it goes; if it is becoming a problem then we can easily modify the procedure22:30
popeyi have concerns, but I'll attack that via mail22:30
mdkeis cody here?22:30
boredandblogginghe is in -news, but not in here, I pinged him22:31
* Mez pinged him too22:31
mdkehi cody-somerville, you're up22:31
* cody-somerville smiles.22:32
sabdflroll on cody-somerville22:32
sabdflis Acelin here for the interface item?22:33
* cody-somerville blames the bot for being late. (;] Mez)22:33
mdkedamn, sorry I didn't spot the interface item22:33
sabdflok, w.r.t. the UI22:33
sabdfli've encouraged salane to work with kwwii22:33
sabdflwho has a mandate to lead the artwork and styling22:33
sabdflwe are building a usability and design team at Canonical22:34
sabdfland anybody who has a professional interest in this should definitely apply there22:34
sabdflas always, we will try to engage with the community as effectively as possible22:34
mdkeok. it's not an issue for us, I don't think. If there are issues with the art team's procedures as suggested we need a bit more detail about it22:34
sabdflthere was a discussion the other day about ensuring that there's at least one community-generated theme22:34
sabdflhistorically, art collaboration has been near zero22:35
sabdflwe see a lot of folks showing up with no context, and insisting that there will be no progress unless *their* theme ships22:35
pwnguinthe heron background was a collaboration, no?22:35
Mezsabdfl, you should speak to seele about HCI/usability stuff - she does a great job in KDEland22:35
sabdfli don't know about heron, i think kwwii lead that22:35
sabdflMez: that's quite different to art, though related of course22:36
pwnguina rather vocal critic of the art team direction gave a history of the backgroud; I can't say how accurate it is22:36
sabdflpwnguin: there are only vocal critics of the art team22:36
MezI was referring to <sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical22:36
sabdflah, thanks Mez22:36
Mez(slow at typing on here)22:36
sabdfli live in hope of a good leader emerging there, but have been unable to engineer that myself22:37
sabdfli think we will have to have a strong leader who is full time, and open to contributions22:37
sabdflso, for example, if we do 80% of the icons, be open to contributions of another 20%22:37
sabdflbut having lots of people submit their own 10% just ain't progress22:37
sabdflany other commentary from the CC?22:38
mdkenot here22:38
sabdflgoing, going...22:39
Burgundaviasounds good to me22:39
sabdflgone. Xubuntu, you're up22:39
cody-somervilleBack in March, we held the first of a series of meetings that have involved a wide diversity of interested parties from many different backgrounds and group.22:39
cody-somervilleThe goal of these meetings have been to ultimately develop a document that describes a strategy for the Xubuntu project.22:40
cody-somervilleIt was felt that such a document would enable Xubuntu to become a sustainable and healthy project.22:40
sabdflhmm... less preamble, sooner content for the win22:41
cody-somervilleI'm proud to say that I'm ready to share the fruit of that labour and ask for official recognition and ratification of the document by the Community Council.22:41
sabdflcody-somerville: what does Xfce4 upstream think of this?22:41
cody-somervillesabdfl, They're very encouraged.22:41
sabdfli ask because it's very important to have the support of upstream, and preferably, have them actively participating22:42
sabdfleven if compromises sometimes need to be made22:42
sabdfl"Xubuntu is not specifically targeted to Xfce4 enthusiasts, as projects/software being hosted by the Xfce4 project or associating (officially or unofficially) with Xfce4 are not guaranteed inclusion in Xubuntu over other applications which may be a better fit for Xubuntu."22:42
sabdflthis could put you at odds with them22:42
cody-somervillesabdfl, We had several developers join us at our meetings.22:43
sabdfllike, for example, shipping FF instead of epiphany gives some folks heartburn, which we actively work to alleviate22:43
* cody-somerville nods.22:43
sabdfli think being willing to compromise some if useful, but it's really important to have some buy-in upstream for that22:43
cody-somervilleAt https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument#head-c7fb09a1a0ff5ac3d53e1f64a1bbd51aad7e20c1 we identify the core components that are considered the identity of Xubuntu22:44
cody-somervilleThose components are also the core components of the Xfce4 project.22:44
sabdflfoci, there's a one-word contradiction for you ;-)22:45
* Myrtti shudders at seeing xfce4-terminal22:46
mdkeit's a long document, I don't feel able to fully do it justice now, but there are some big picture things we can talk about22:46
mdkei think a close analysis will need a few days digesting it22:46
* cody-somerville nods.22:46
sabdflthe profiles idea is nice, as a formal testing goal during the cycle22:47
mdkeI'm interested mainly in the governance aspect, given that we're the CC and the Xubuntu community needs to have some scope for determining its own goals22:47
mdkeI'd really like to see a Council evolving sooner rather than later22:47
mdkeand I'd like to see its relationship with the CC more clearly defined, as we discussed privately cody-somerville22:47
sabdflalso, we had a bad start with the irc council and xubuntu leaders apparently in conflict unnecessarily22:48
sabdfli'd like some reassurance that sort of thing won't recur22:48
mdkecody-somerville: do you envisage that the project leader would continue to exist as a role even after a Council is in place?22:48
mdkedeal with one topic at a time, sorry to cross over with sabdfl's question22:49
cody-somervilleI'd like to hear from the CC how they'd like to see the Xubuntu leadership interact with other governance bodies.22:49
sabdflimo, it does help to have a designated chair, or other sort of arbiter, in a project like this22:49
sabdflso i'm not opposed to that role, as long as it's part of the council22:50
* cody-somerville nods.22:50
mdkesabdfl: it would be unique, I think - or do other Council's have such a role?22:50
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Aug 20:00 UTC: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU
sabdflthe CC would typically nominate folks to the project council22:50
sabdflRyan Troy was the first chair of the Forums Council, Seveas the first of the IRC council, iirc22:51
* cody-somerville nods.22:51
Seveas(IRC council is currently without chair afaik)22:51
Mezsabdfl, though the IRCC has no lead atm)22:51
Mez(though we are sorting out nominations for new people on the IRCC to fill up now-vacant spots)22:52
mdkecody-somerville: well, from my point of view, the Xubuntu Council would be treated the same way as other team councils that exist, described on CommunityCouncil/Delegation22:52
sabdfli see no reason for it to be done differently22:52
cody-somervillesabdfl, mdke: Agreed.22:52
mdkeif issues cannot be resolved by the team council, they can be delegated to us as usual22:53
sabdfli think the doc is well constructed, though it needs a bit of an editorial pass for style22:53
mdkeditto if an inter-team issue arises, as with the recent irc issue (although as sabdfl said, better if such issues don't arise at all)22:53
* cody-somerville nods.22:54
cody-somervilleThus far Xubuntu has been more autonomous then say Kubuntu. Is it preferred for Xubuntu to be more closely tied in?22:55
mdkeKubuntu is pretty autonomous22:55
* cody-somerville nods.22:55
mdkefrom a governance point of view, anyway, we haven't really intervened at all22:55
mdkeat least since I've been on the CC22:56
sabdflit's nice to see the proposed community structure22:56
sabdflgood work, cody-somerville22:56
sabdfland team22:56
mdkeyes, good job22:57
mdkeif the document can be made a bit shorter, that would be good22:57
sabdflsays very clearly how things are to be organised22:57
cody-somervillesabdfl, thank you22:57
mdkea small point, when you say "this team is owned by the Xubuntu Council", you might say "this team reports to the Xubuntu Council" (i understand that you're referring to the LP team structure, but it sounds a little autocratic)22:57
mdkewhere do we go from here? can we deal with the detail of the document and/or points of style by email?22:58
sabdflsome of the code of conduct stuff isn't needed, it's inherited from Ubuntu22:58
mdkeany questions from Burgundavia, Technoviking and elmo?22:59
Technovikingmdke none here, look good to me with the comments made23:00
sabdflcody-somerville: this is a very good start. i would strip out pieces that are inherited from Ubuntu, like the CoC guidance (you can say that this project is as much subject to the CoC as any other in ubuntu)23:00
* cody-somerville nods.23:00
sabdfli would also reiterate the importance of upstream support23:00
* cody-somerville nods.23:00
sabdflwould be disappointed to hear that upstream wasn't consulted on a major component decision, for example, and was upset23:00
cody-somervillesabdfl, Agreed.23:01
sabdflthe pieces that talk about upstream relations, bug tracking etc are excellent23:01
Burgundavianot from me23:01
sabdfl+1 from me23:01
sabdflBurgundavia: not? or none?23:01
Burgundavia+1 from me23:01
Technoviking+1 here23:01
elmosorry, I came in late due to /topic ambush, I'll have to abstain till I can catch up23:02
sabdflok, Planet23:03
Burgundaviaah, Planet23:03
* cody-somerville has a question.23:03
sabdflare magicfab and/or \sh here?23:03
sabdflcody-somerville: go ahead?23:03
Mez\sh doesnt seem to be23:03
mdkebefore we start planet I should point out that as far as policy questions go we have an approved policy document, so probably we can leave big picture issues about "what is planet for?" aside and concentrate on the specific issue23:03
cody-somervilleJust to clarify, the CC would like me to bring the document back for a second confirmation after making edits based on the suggestions given above?23:04
mdke(ref - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy)23:04
mdkecody-somerville: I think we can do it by email, that gives us more time to digest it carefully; subject to what others think23:05
LaserJockmdke: just a quick question, that text is not on Planet Ubuntu, is that spec not implemented?23:05
pwnguinI believe magicfab is at a conference and cannot make it today23:05
mdkeLaserJock: yes, that's correct. I have an rt open about it though so it will be implemented in due course23:06
LaserJockmdke: ah, ok. thanks for that clarification23:06
Mezto me it seems like the original issue was over the "wtf" in the title?23:07
mdkeMez: I think it is the reference to masturbation in the blog text23:07
mdkealthough I'm not 100% sure about what that actually means23:08
pwnguinfrom what ive gathered its about both23:08
Mezmdke, me either re-reading it...23:08
mdkein the absence of Fabian / Stephan, should we discuss the specific complaint or postpone that until they can attend?23:08
MezI didnt sot that before23:08
mdkethere is a general issue we could discuss - to whom should complaints about specific posts on Planet be directed?23:09
mdkethey are rare enough that I'd say the CC is probably the appropriate place, what do others think?23:09
pwnguini think if CC is willing to play dispute resolution we'll be better off for it23:10
Technovikingmdke: I say the CC, this is only the second time in over a year23:10
BurgundaviaI don't see the need for anything else at the current moment23:10
sabdfli'm trying to decide if my dislike of the post is personal, or professional23:10
mdkesabdfl: rofl23:10
mdkeTechnoviking: nod23:10
pwnguinbut there's some sort of failure here if neither party attends23:10
mdkepwnguin: complaints can be discussed by email if necessary23:11
MezThe thing is here, is that I personally hear a lot of complaints regarding the "family friendly" part of the IRC Guidelines.23:11
Technovikingsabdfl: agree, I'm not offend by it personally, but it is not the image of Ubuntu I want to project23:11
popeymaybe the planet should have digg-style buttons so people can voice their opinion easily without typing reply blogs fully of vitriol :)23:12
MezThis is the same thing really.. and a judgement here... sets a precedent23:12
Technovikingpopey: Digg = Fail23:13
LaserJockwould it help if the CC did ratify a Planet Code of Conduct?23:13
popeyTechnoviking: it was a joke :)23:13
LaserJockthe CoC is helpful in general, but perhaps a version specifically targeted to Planet would be useful23:13
pwnguinwhat would it say?23:14
mdkeLaserJock: I think the regular code of conduct deals with it ok; I'm reluctant to have too many documents like that around23:14
Burgundaviamuch like the forums specific one?23:14
mdkethe CoC's power is in its simplicity23:14
Mezmdke, there is a LOT of wiggle room in the CoC though23:14
FlannelMez: that's not necessarily a bad thing.23:14
mdkeMez: that's intentional23:14
Technovikingpopey: I know:)23:15
popeyah, thought the humor sensor was on the blink :)23:15
LaserJocksure, but in areas where there are particular issues, perhaps the wriggle room needs clarity23:15
mdkebut the planet policy document kinda deals with these issues, I think23:15
LaserJockmdke: indeed23:15
mdkelike the bit which sabdfl wrote about "By and large, we take a "liberal Western" view of matters moral. That means we don't blush too much when sex is discussed, though we prefer to keep it practical, to keep personal preferences private, and never to criticize or belittle others on gender or sexuality grounds."23:15
Mezmdke, except when it comes down to making a judgement in respect to something like this... if you're in the wiggle room, then any judgement is going to cause issues with people disagreeing...23:15
LaserJockit seems to me that the problem is generally people having different expectations of Planet23:15
Mezbut then, I guess this is where ompaul comes in and tells me I think too black and white23:16
popeyLaserJock: and different uses for it23:16
popey"I use it for news gathering". "I use it to see behind the developers", "I use it to waste 10 mins at work"23:16
Myrtti"you're too pin23:17
MezLaserJock, indeed... I see the planet as an insight to the developers, they have interesting blogs... If I want news, I use the fridge.23:17
FlannelMez: those people would already be up in arms if it were laid out in writing.  And each 'wiggle room' incident's verdict depends a lot on the specifics of the situation.23:17
mdkeLaserJock: the policy document deals with that; but I think Fabian and /sh just have a different view on appropriate content, rather than topic23:17
Myrtti^H^H^H^Hblack and white"23:17
LaserJockI've generally been lately encouraging people to use Fridge for news and Planet for "the window into Ubuntu member's world" which you may occasionally be offended by23:17
sabdfl\sh was clearly talking about masturbation, and not in a particularly practical sense either23:17
sabdflthen, he insisted not to be23:17
sabdflbut the inference is clear23:17
MezLaserJock, that leaves something out...23:17
MezLaserJock, the documentation of progress, status updates etc.23:18
sabdfli think that's unacceptable23:18
LaserJockMez: I think those are included23:18
MezIt's not news, it's not "personal"...23:18
pwnguinmy only complaint is this interpretation that "WTF" in text and urls is disrespectful. the content part only arose after I asked about it =/23:18
persiaOnly about a quarter of those eligible to post on planet are developers: having too much of a development-centric view may be misleading anyway, regardless of public perception.23:18
LaserJockMez: if it's personal stuff = Planet, if it's team/announcement stuff = Fridge23:19
emmajanemdke I've been trying to find the planet guidelines but have failed. URL, please?23:19
popeyif WTF is complaint-worthy then so is RTFM23:19
MezLaserJock, I thik that theres a lot of people who want to see the technical side and none of the "personal" stuff... and some who want to see it the other way23:19
LaserJockMez: by personal I'm not saying non-technical23:19
mdkeemmajane: i think you came in after I posted it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy23:19
MyrttiRTFM is even more complaint-worthy23:19
sabdfli have no problem with WTF, it's a pretty standard interjection, as is RTFM23:19
LaserJockMez: I'm saying, non-official statements, etc. Just individual Ubuntu people talking about what they're doing23:19
mdkeyes, I agree with sabdfl about the specific post23:20
popeyexactly, neither is particularly offensive if not directed at the individual23:20
sabdflLaserJock: i agree, Planet is informal23:20
pwnguinwell, RTFM is a bit disrespectful to the person presumably asking a question23:20
mdkethe second post is not particularly constructive either23:20
boredandbloggingthe planet still isn't a good place to post about updates, it rolls off in a day23:20
MyrttiI've got personal issues with RTFM - RTFM is the thing that drove me away from Linux for three years before I found Ubuntu23:20
Flannelpwnguin: We don't allow RTFM in IRC because of it.23:20
sabdflpwnguin: except that it's become standard... Read the Fine Manual ;-)23:20
MezLaserJock, I know - but - theres also people who see planet as "what the peope behind ubuntu are doing for ubuntu" kinda thing... an "ubuntu planet" rather than a "ubuntu members planet" - does that make sense?23:20
pwnguinsabdfl: apparently the IRC council disagrees ;=)23:21
popeygah, i meant RTFM as in used as a piece of text, not as in "directed at someone"23:21
LaserJockMez: and that's ok, if it's personal23:21
Flannelpwnguin: but, RTFM is directly insulting to the questioner, "WTF" or other things like that aren't insults usually.23:21
mdkeMez: and that is fine23:21
Myrttieveryone using that acronym on my watch is seriously in danger of being poked with a Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™23:21
ompaulnormally use of rtfm would get you  ubottu> Acronyms or statements like  noob, jfgi, stfu or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.23:21
LaserJockbut if people want to know about official announcements, team-related material, I think Fridge is more appropriate23:21
mdkeLaserJock: there is no rule that news cannot be posted to Planet; it's a resource that people read. However people shouldn't expect it to be a news resource only; it's a big pot of what Ubuntu members want to blog about23:21
sabdflMyrtti: he, i need a Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™23:21
LaserJockwhich takes away some of the expectation that Planet should be "professional"23:21
TechnovikingI feel people need to consider two things when feeding blogs post to the Planet 1. Does it interest the audience who read the Planet. 2. Does it represent Ubuntu/Ubuntu Community in a positive (even when it is a negative comment)23:22
sabdflLaserJock: +1 that Planet is informal by design, and should stay that way23:22
pwnguinprofessional means "do not read". look how many people read "Risks Digest" versus "DailyWTF"23:22
sabdflbut i think it's also reasonable to filter things that are totally unrelated to Ubuntu or FLOSS23:22
popeyompaul: i mentioned RTFM _not_ directed at the individual, merely as an example of another acronym which as FSCK in it, and it is used often - often _NOT_ directed at people23:22
Technovikings/positive/positive way23:22
Mezsabdfl, really?23:22
mdkeTechnoviking: I think that is a little bit too restrictive. People should be able to blog about whatever they wish, as long as it is compatible with the guidelines and common sense23:23
ompaulpopey, yeap, I understood23:23
ompaulpopey, I did prefix my comment, it is always about context23:23
mdkesabdfl: I disagree23:23
mdke(with the last bit)23:23
Mezsabdfl, to me, seeing <forgotten names> posts about how he's been fighting his illness etc etc...23:23
Mezthat wouldnt be FLOSS/Ubuntu related.23:23
Mezbut I want to see that...23:24
sabdfli would say that the majority of a contributors posts should be Ubuntu or aligned, and the exceptions should not be offensive23:24
emmajaneI think it might be nice to have more on what is appropriate in teh guidelines. I quite like the Flickr guidelines where people are encouraged to self-moderate. http://flickr.com/guidelines.gne23:24
mdkeI tend to read with interest posts about member's non-Ubuntu related activities23:24
mdkesabdfl: nothing should be offensive, sure23:24
pwnguinmdke: given the number of people aggregated in planet ubuntu, its a bit nessecary to filter somewhere =(23:24
popeyagreed mdke23:24
popeypwnguin: in the head of the reader?23:24
pwnguinor with a grep filter23:24
mdkeemmajane: those are interesting, thanks23:25
popeynobody is forcing anyone to read it23:25
sabdflmdke: what do you think about a case where a good contributor (say, a translator) never blogs about his ubuntu work, but blogs about stuff he writing on Windows?23:25
sabdfli.e. where the majority of his posts would be jarring23:25
Mezmdke, same here... I think that they break it up nicely... having just tech etc is annoying, i want to know more about what makes these people who they are. Not just what they're woring on...23:25
LaserJockpopey: that's not exactly true23:26
Burgundaviasabdfl: I think stuff like that really depends on volume23:26
mdkesabdfl: I think that's acceptable, and personally would find it interesting. I don't think it jars at all. Planet is a blog aggregator, not a community news or discussion site23:26
popeyLaserJock: a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver23:26
Burgundaviaif they are posting every day about that, then a friendly email/comment asking them to slow them down would be nice23:26
LaserJockpeople are somewhat "forced" to read material on Planet23:26
sabdflBurgundavia: i agree, and the volume is more acceptable if it's a small portion of a larger flow of aligned material23:26
popeyLaserJock: gun to head?23:26
mdkewhen we start regulating topic on planet, it's a slippery slope, I fear23:26
elmopopey: I think that might be against the CoC23:26
LaserJockpopey: no, but content *is* right there23:26
sabdflmdke: i think blog aggregator is a term lost on most of the people who read planet :-)23:26
sabdfli think most people just think it's a news site23:27
popeyelmo: you'd love it tho :)23:27
pwnguindo we have any stats on rss versus page views?23:27
Mezsabdfl, and if it was floss related/ubutu related only, you'd have to delete half of Jono's blogs (which are normally a darn fine read!)23:27
mdkeI prefer to see planet as a place where Ubuntu members share their blogs, and only intervene where content is inconsistent with the code of conduct23:27
LaserJockpopey: if I'm scanning Planet and somebody has some grossly offensive picture for instance, I'm not sure you can claim that the reader isn't being forced to see that23:27
mdkerather than try and guide its subject matter23:27
Burgundaviadoes our planet support what planet gnome does, where you can use css to turn off spefici people?23:27
popeyLaserJock: sure, but that's already covered by the planet guidelines23:28
popeyBurgundavia: do you get to turn people on too?23:28
LaserJockpopey: well, only somewhat23:28
elmopage views appear to be ~3%23:28
emmajaneBurgundavia: nicer to encourage good behaviour rather than to have to know fancy things to mod "bad" behaviour out...23:28
Burgundaviapopey: really popey, I thought we were keeping that private23:28
sabdfleasy in CSS, popey ;-)23:28
elmovs. RSS23:28
elmo(emphasis on the ~)23:29
Myrtti"whisper SQL to me, baby" *cough*23:29
LaserJockelmo: wow, that's quite a bit smaller than I would have thought23:29
* Myrtti hides under her bed23:29
sabdflSELECT leather FROM wardrobe ;-)23:29
FlannelBurgundavia: No, It doesn't appear that's possible currently.  No unique classes in the posts.23:29
sabdflwe're drifting, here23:29
mdkealright, I'm going to have to retire shortly23:29
Burgundaviamight that be possible to turn on?23:29
FlannelBurgundavia: It sounds like a good idea.23:30
FlannelAnd certainly would allow people to ignore certain posters23:30
popeysomeone needs to write a meta-planet which frontends the rss feed and allows you to tick/untick people23:30
mdketo be honest, it's so easy to skip over posts that don't interest you that it's not a massively important feature, I think23:30
pwnguini kinda did23:30
elmopopey: people have for Debian/gnome23:30
elmobut I don't think that helps the 'bad reflection' on Ubuntu aspect23:31
MyrttiI don't even read planet from planet.ubuntu.com23:31
Flannelpwnguin: It'll be easy enough (I think, I haven't seen the planet code) to just add a class to the posts, unique to each poster.23:31
emmajaneWould it also be possible to put a link to the guidelines directly from planet.ubuntu.com?23:31
Flanneler, popey ^23:31
elmoanyway, what, if anything do we want to do about this specific incident23:31
elmoemmajane: yes, we're going to do that23:31
mdkeemmajane: yes, that's part of the spec23:31
MyrttiI've grabbed the OPML to my rssowl23:31
sabdflelmo: who can edit the Planet page?23:32
pwnguinelmo: move the conflict resolution to email I say. the affected parties need to at least know whats going on23:32
sabdflwe need to add the editorial policy there, which says we can remove content23:32
mdkeelmo: let's raise it with \sh. It's difficult to discuss without reference to him23:32
mdkeor rather, in his absence23:33
sabdfli would personally like to see a guideline that says that posts should predominantly be about ubuntu23:33
sabdflbut i don't hear resounding support for that23:33
emmajane+1 for outlining what is desired content.23:33
elmosabdfl: right now SAs, I'm working with mdke to expand that (with suitable oversight/review)23:33
popeyso long is it is "predominantly" or "mostly" and not "entirely" I agree23:33
BurgundaviaI would agree with that23:34
LaserJockme too23:34
FlannelI could support that in a guideline23:34
mdkethat would be too limiting for me23:34
Mezmdke, myself also23:34
sabdflCC, how do you feel about a "general emphasis on Ubuntu and FLOSS related content", with an explicit permission about life stuff to quell the regular "off topic" accusations23:34
Myrttiubuntu? what about FLOSS in general?23:34
popeyand as you say, _all_ posts (whether ubuntu centric or not) should comply with the planet guidelines23:34
DavieyI would hate to see people slated for not posting about Ubuntu.. if I can see that their content is otherwise interesting - and they are a known perosn - which by definition of membership they should be23:34
elmosabdfl: do we have a regular off topic problem?23:34
sabdflfolks, i'm trying to narrow down to hear the views of the CC, we've had an open discussion already, now we need to get a decision23:35
popeycan you add an extra clause "no posts about deal metal"?23:35
sabdflelmo: i think we have consensus that *some* offtopic material is acceptable, even encouraged23:35
Mezpopey, noel edmunds has a band?23:35
Myrttipopey: naughty23:35
sabdfland often we have folks asking why a post was offtopic23:35
mdke-1 from me. It's inconsistent with my view of what a planet should be, and I see it as causing a slippery slope towards complaints of "off-topic" on particular blogs23:35
elmowe already have "Subscribed feeds ought to be at least occasionally relevant to Ubuntu", in PlanetUbuntu, FWIW23:36
sabdflmdke: by my way of thinking, no single post would be offtopic23:36
Mezelmo, that sounds fine to em ;)23:36
LaserJockI kinda hate to say it, but with the exception of \sh have we even had other problems like this?23:36
sabdflbut a feed which contains a generally low ubuntu signal to other material, would raise questions23:36
Mezsabdfl, freedom of speech?23:36
* nealmcb likes "FLOSS in general" - encouraging cross-fertilization 23:36
Mezsabdfl, is there actually a problem about off-topicness in general?23:36
BurgundaviaMez: ENOTDEMOCRACY23:36
pwnguinLaserJock: there was the time fabian leaked canonical secrets, but not really related23:36
sabdflMez: it's a big web, you don't need to write everywhere to have freedom23:37
Mezsabdfl, but if my blog is aggregated, It restricts what I can write on my blog...23:37
mdkeBurgundavia: you can have freedom of speech in non-democracies :p23:37
mdkesabdfl: yeah, I understand, I just think that going down that route would cause more complaints about off topic than we get now, and the current ones would be addressed by the spec anyway.23:37
elmoMez: that's not true, any decent blog has tags23:37
popeyMez: categorise it23:37
TechnovikingMez: only feed part of your blog,23:38
mdkesabdfl: but my main objection is that I don't think a planet should be restricted except by the CoC and general common sense23:38
mdkeanyway, I'm happy to be overruled :)23:38
FlannelTechnoviking: That's not feasible for all blog software apparently.23:38
Burgundaviamdke: yes, but the compliant would be about censoring23:38
Mezthat would depend on my writing it if I was using my own blog software ;) (and screws over livejournal I believe!)23:38
Burgundaviaand advogato23:38
pwnguinlivejournal has tagging filters23:39
pwnguini use it23:39
Mezpwnguin, ah, well, It didnt when I used to use it ;)23:39
elmoanyway, I'm +0 on sabdfl's proposed 'ubuntu, floss + life'.  I'm not sure it would solve any of the actual escalated problems, or that it wouldn't make off-topic discussions more frequent23:40
elmobut like mdke, happy to be overruled23:40
sabdflmdke: can you give me an example where general common sense would suggest lifting an article?23:40
* Mez can23:40
ograLaserJock, and in \sh's case i wouldnt even say the blog posts are the actual prob but hs kind of overreacting to critics and then misbehaving way worse that the actual thing deserves ... i personally dont see a big prob in the first article23:41
mdkesabdfl: yes, an article which is personally offensive, deals with unacceptable subject matter or is unnecessarily provocative; or otherwise offends the CoC :)23:41
ograbut the second is definately bad23:41
LaserJockogra: mhm23:41
LaserJockthe problem is that common sense isn't universal sense :-)23:42
ograheh, yeah23:42
* sabdfl worries about scaling planet, as ubuntumembers grows, and as more people blog about more stuff23:42
sabdflogra: good point23:42
* Myrtti points at nicu's post on fedora planet23:43
popeyare there many larger planets out there? how do they do it?23:43
mdkesabdfl: I see that, but we can perhaps deal with a problem if it arises23:43
Flannelsabdfl: We'll deal with that when we get there.  Right now its still managable23:43
pwnguinMyrtti: but that's already disrespectful23:43
LaserJocksabdfl: it is getting more difficult, stuff scrolls of pretty fast23:43
=== Grantbow_ is now known as Grantbow
LaserJockone distinguishing factor I've seen, in general23:43
sabdflok. does any other member of the CC feel that \sh's initial post was outside the boundaries of acceptability for planet?23:43
popeyI'm pretty sure \sh's post would have disappeared and been forgotten if it hadn't been for fab bring it up in quite such a public way23:43
LaserJockis that Planet Ubuntu is a lot more non-developer23:44
LaserJockwhich may lead to more posts and perhaps more non-technical post23:44
sabdflpopey: but i suspect it did detract from the vibe many have23:44
mdkesabdfl: yes, a bit outside the boundaries for me23:44
TechnovikingI feel it not it was out of bounds23:44
popeysabdfl: agreed, for a very short time23:44
elmoTechnoviking: -eparse23:44
Mezdevelopers.planet.ubuntu.com and members.planet.ubuntu.com?23:44
Technovikingack it was out of bounds23:45
mdkeLaserJock: I don't think Planet Gnome is less technical, or less frequently posted to23:45
mdkeMez: ugh23:45
Meztech bit in one, personal in other... conglomerate in p.u.c :P23:45
LaserJockmdke: no? I do, but maybe it's just me23:45
Technovikingsorry about that23:45
elmohmm, I don't like the posting23:45
Mezmdke, the subdomain acts as a a filter to p.u.c, rather than a seperate planet if you get my drift?23:45
MyrttiI'd settle for an asteroid23:45
* elmo runs to read the CoC quickly23:45
mdkeLaserJock: (that should have read "more technical, or less frequently")23:45
ograi dont like it either but i dont think it was actually out of bounds ...23:45
elmosabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me23:46
ograit was a bad sense of humor23:46
sabdflput it this way. i would love people to feel that all things ubuntu are well articulated, and respectfully done, even when they are satirical23:46
sabdflthis was not23:46
FlannelMez: I'd rather just see the ability to filter clientside with CSS as per Burgundavia23:46
mdkesabdfl: *nod*23:46
ograsabdfl, ++23:46
sabdfli feel let down when i see this sort of thing, and i think it's quite ok for us to say so23:46
sabdfli don't see how we could expect it to improve, if we said nothing23:46
ogradefinately true23:47
LaserJocksabdfl: but what "teeth" does the CC have?23:47
Burgundaviawe can remove somebody from planet23:47
sabdflLaserJock: we have them, all the better to smile with23:47
mdkeLaserJock: a full set!23:47
ograBurgundavia, which would get people into cheering "censorship !!!"23:48
Burgundaviawe could also talk about doing suspensions23:48
LaserJockwell, but what I'm saying is, is this a "technical solutions to social issues" problem?23:48
sabdflbut this would not be so much about biting, as inspiring23:48
popeyor "hurrah!" ogra23:48
* ogra would hope we can do better than just flipping a switch23:48
Burgundaviaessentially: removed for a certain amount of time until you have shown you can post and follow the CC23:48
BurgundaviaCoC rather23:48
mdkeLaserJock: to be honest, I'd be disappointed if teeth were necessary, I suspect that talking to \sh will resolve the issue23:48
LaserJockdoes the CC actually have to take action, or can it just say that it's unhappy with posts23:48
ogramdke, ++23:48
LaserJockmdke: me too23:49
sabdflLaserJock: the latter, in this case, would i think be sufficient23:49
Flannel\sh thinks this is an overrreaction by magicfab, and seems to believe he is in line with the CoC, a simple mention that that's not true may suffice.23:49
mdkesanctions are very rarely imposed in this community, happily23:49
pwnguinif the CC were to remove or suspend sh, I'd hope it would be for his reply rather than the initial post. the CoC is nothing if it doesn't guide us on our worst days23:49
sabdflFlannel: he also felt it necessary to be quite dishonest about what he was saying, in order to try to be inside the line, when challenged23:49
sabdflhe said he wasn't talking about masturbation, when clearly he was23:50
Flannelsabdfl: Thats true, and in some regards I think his response was a lot more telling than anything else.23:50
ograFlannel, but he also has to learn that overreactions shouldnt be answered with even worse overreactions23:50
sabdflso i think he knows he was out of line23:50
elmo sabdfl: err, I'm +1 on what you're saying - or are you asking me something more specific? :)23:50
sabdflelmo: just wondered if you found what you were looking for in the CoC ;-)23:50
mdkedo you guys not have it on the wall above your computers?23:50
elmo23:46 < elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me23:50
sabdflah, you said above, i missed it23:50
elmomdke: yeah, but only at work23:51
* mdke hurriedly takes his down23:51
sabdflthat's a consensus, as i see it23:51
pwnguinheh, maybe the canonical store can sell framed versions23:51
sabdflseparately, i think ogra has a very good point23:51
elmopwnguin: or signed ones.  we could get sabdfl a signing machine like POTUS has!23:51
* LaserJock thinks everybody just needs a hug ;-)23:51
LaserJockwhere's dholbach?23:51
ogra\sh has a sad history of that kind of overreaction and he knows about it23:51
ograso pointing him t that will surely move more than shutting him down (temporary or longterm)23:52
elmoogra: eh, so what do you suggest?23:52
sabdflwhen critiqued, is almost the most important time to raise the quality of discourse23:52
ogratalk to him about the second post, he knows the first wasnt right, but he also knows he tends to overreact23:53
sabdflLaserJock: nobody is trying to hurt or cause offense, and we find the whole community gets stronger when we figure out what we won't accept23:53
mdkeI have to go now, thanks for the very productive meeting everyone23:53
pwnguinan alternative might be to offer some editorial advice prior to posting. kuro5hin had a neat collaborative editing feature23:53
sabdfland we all think the folks concerned here are good members of the community23:53
sabdflwe are out of time, i think23:54
Burgundaviaanother option would be supervision23:54
Burgundaviaessentially, ask a poster to get somebody else to look over any post before it goes live23:54
sabdflgiven that we have consensus on the first post, i'll write to \sh23:54
sabdflprivately, cc the CC23:54
sabdflBurgundavia: "knowing that you don't intend to cause offense, it might be worth..."23:55
sabdflyes, can do that23:55
sabdfllet's wrap it up now, unless there are any emergencies23:55
sabdflwe're through the agenda23:55
sabdflany other business?23:55
sabdflgoing... going...23:55
Burgundaviaoh wait, there is no food in my house. Does that count?23:56
* popey scps Burgundavia a donut23:56
sabdfldid i mention how much i enjoy working with you all?23:56
* ogra plays MIM between popey and Burgundavia and has a bite23:56
sabdflthank you everyone23:56
popeyhang on, mdke has a copy of the CoC printed out23:57
sabdflsigh. ogra. QUOTES PAGE23:57
Technovikingthanks all23:57
sabdflnight all23:58

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