[01:18] <Pretto> @now
[02:06] <pwnguin> @now Chicago
[02:07] <pwnguin> @now CST
[02:07]  * pwnguin reads harder
[02:09] <bazhang> @schedule
[02:09] <bazhang> ubottu is gone
[11:57] <amachu> TheMuso, persia, elky , hi
[11:57] <persia> amachu: Good afternoon
[11:57] <TheMuso> amachu: Hey.
[11:57] <elky> evening
[11:57] <elky> who are we missing?
[11:58] <persia> lifeless: zakame, Belutz
[11:58] <elky> amachu, your internet was fine until you spoke!
[11:58] <TheMuso> lol
[11:59] <lifeless> hi
[12:00] <amachu> lifeless, hi
[12:00] <elky> right, is our contestant here? :Þ
[12:00] <amachu> mdamt, hi
[12:00] <mdamt> Hello all.
[12:00] <amachu> welcome everyone!
[12:01] <persia> mdamt: Good nick construction technique :)
[12:01] <mdamt> persia: :-)
[12:01] <amachu> so we have lifeless, elky, persia , TheMuso and amachu here?
[12:01] <amachu> Belutz?
[12:01]  * TheMuso is here.
[12:01] <amachu> zakame?
[12:02] <elky> he's not in the channel
[12:02] <lifeless> sorry for missing last week
[12:02] <lifeless> was jetlagged; week before was on a plane
[12:02] <elky> he  is online though
[12:03] <amachu> good, we have five among us
[12:03] <amachu> we will start
[12:03] <elky> mdamt, do you want to introduce yourself and what you do for Ubuntu? we can fill zakame in later if he comes
[12:03] <amachu> elky, indeed
[12:03] <amachu> mdamt, thats was a nice snap with babies :-)
[12:04] <amachu> mdamt, there?
[12:04] <mdamt> Right, so I am an Indonesian currently living in Helsinki Finland. Been in FOSS world since 1997. Been doing some work for Ubuntu Indonesia, administring the mailing list, also involved in BlankOn project as one of Ubuntu Indonesia project.
[12:05] <elky> possibly typing
[12:05] <mdamt> Mainly I work for upstream: GNOME and MAEMO which are used in Ubuntu and Ubuntu Mobile.
[12:05] <mdamt> So I guess that's all.
[12:06] <elky> mdamt, what ubuntu-specific stuff do you do?
[12:06] <persia> For Ubuntu Membership, we tend to look at contributions specifically to Ubuntu.
[12:06] <elky> zakame, will pastebin, second
[12:06] <zakame> cool
[12:06] <mdamt> For direcly Ubuntu project I also involved in Indonesian L10n in LP.
[12:07] <elky> zakame, http://pastebin.com/mdf5e41d
[12:08] <elky> mdamt, cool, how many strings have you translated (i hope this is correct translation terminology)
[12:08] <zakame> got it, thanks elky
[12:08] <mdamt> elky: I've never counted it. As many of the translations in LP also came from GNOME which I did with others.
[12:09] <persia> LP claims 381 for 7 Karma points, but it may not be complete.
[12:09] <elky> mdamt, so do you do all the admin for the mailing list?
[12:10] <mdamt> Yes, I do the id-ubuntu mailing list administration (also with others).
[12:13] <persia> mdamt: In your testimonials, I see comments about you being the driver behind BlankOn, and possibly planning work with Ubuntu Packaging: have you submitted any packaging work to Ubuntu so far?
[12:14] <mdamt> Not yet. But I have some on my list already. Probably after my vacation ends.
[12:14] <persia> mdamt: Did you bring a fan club to cheer for you at this meeting?
[12:15] <mdamt> All of them are missing :-)
[12:16]  * persia is done with questions
[12:16] <amachu> Belutz had earlier recognized mdamt contributions, couple of weeks back when iang and mdamt were present
[12:16] <elky> same. mdamt, i see you've done some good work, but im not personally seeing a substantial ubuntu-specific contribution yet. i'm giving a -1 here, and recommending you return after you've done some motu work
[12:17] <amachu> on 22-July-08
[12:17] <TheMuso> I agree with elky, but a +0 from me. You seem to be on the right track, but I think we need to see more from you in terms of sustained contributions.
[12:17] <mdamt> Right.
[12:17] <amachu> mdamt, remember I felt the same that day.
[12:17] <elky> amachu, the key is ubuntu-specific. im not comfortable on making someone a member of ubuntu because of their work on a derivative, any more than a debian person would want me a member of debian for my ubuntu work.
[12:17] <lifeless> +0, I concur with elky and themuso
[12:18] <e-jat> +1 for mdamt
[12:18] <lifeless> I think both upstream and downstream work are important - at at the project level we acknowledge that work
[12:18] <persia> mdamt: I'm also going to vote +0.  Positive points for what looks like good work with Inonesian localisation, and previous comments from Belutz.  Negative points for not getting more upstream, and not having lots of Ubuntu-specific stuff.
[12:18] <amachu> mdamt, would like to see more details in your wiki page, that shows references to contributions to Ubutu
[12:19] <lifeless> but for individual ubuntu membership it needs to be ubuntu-specfic stuff that we are acknowledging
[12:19] <zakame> +0: I see translations going way back to 2005, but I think mdamt can do more :)
[12:19] <amachu> elky, I agree
[12:19] <mdamt> Ok.
[12:20] <amachu> mdamt, +0 from me too
[12:21] <amachu> great to see your contributions upstreams.
[12:21] <elky> consider this an encouragement to do more for ubuntu! :)
[12:21] <amachu> please continue your good work, and hoping to see you back with a bang
[12:22] <mdamt> :-) Thanks all.
[12:22] <elky> we know you do good things!
[12:22] <e-jat> good luck mdamt !
[12:22] <elky> i think he's all we had, no?
[12:23] <amachu> elky, ?
[12:23] <elky> amachu, agenda-wise
[12:23] <amachu> yes
[12:23] <amachu> any thing to be shared
[12:23] <amachu> from anyone?
[12:24] <amachu> elky, persia, TheMuso, lifeless : ?
[12:24] <TheMuso> Not from me.
[12:24] <elky> probably encourage any countries not yet registered for Software Freedom Day to get registered and spread ubuntu on the most important free/libre open source software event of the year
[12:24] <persia> I've a vague sense that we ought somehow be coordinating with LoCos to drive more agenda items, but am unlikely to actually do anything about it personally.
[12:24] <elky> softwarefreedomday.org
[12:25] <elky> persia, i just make up my own ;)
[12:26] <amachu> elky, We plan to publish rms - Free Software Free Society on SFD
[12:26] <amachu> elky, I will do it, thanks for citing
[12:26] <amachu> persia, that gives me a vague idea too
[12:26] <elky> amachu, cool. try not to scare the little kids with that ;)
[12:27] <amachu> :-)
[12:27] <amachu> they have Big Buck Bunny to watch
[12:27] <amachu> ;)
[12:27] <amachu> persia, but we need to..
[12:28] <amachu> persia, but for that we have to be more than Membership Board. Isn't it?
[12:28] <techno_freak> amachu, ta_IN("Free Software Free Society") ?
[12:28] <persia> amachu: Certainly.  I've just been operating in two-weeks-behind mode for long enough that I'm getting leery of taking new tasks, even when I have an idea that makes me want to do something.
[12:28] <elky> amachu, BBB is sooooo funny
[12:28] <amachu> techno_freak, yes
[12:28] <amachu> techno_freak, in Tamil
[12:29] <elky> we had it playing rotation at an expo here in sydney, and half of us kept getting distracted watching it instead of talking to people
[12:29] <techno_freak> amachu, kewl
[12:29] <persia> I'm not sure it's "More than membership board" to occasionally bug the LoCos to try to get people to do more and become members.  If any of us individually go beyond that, that's the individual's decision.
[12:30] <elky> persia, agree. we should keep an eye out for regionally-relevent things though
[12:30] <elky> i should have been bugging people to submit for Linux Conf Au more, but I've been slack
[12:30] <elky> CFP closes in 3 days
[12:30] <amachu> persia, personally we are doing that. hoping to see atleast two in months to come
[12:31] <persia> elky: Regionally relevant events, etc?
[12:31] <elky> persia, conferences in the region
[12:32] <elky> specifically ones which may have CFP where people can apply to talk about F/LOSS
[12:33] <persia> elky: That makes sense.  I'm not sure it's strictly RMB, but there ought be some wiki pages towards which interested parties can point.  The presentations can then go on their wiki pages, and we can review them when the presenters apply for membership.
[12:34] <elky> persia, i was thinking more for content sake. i'd love to hear more about the events that happen in the asia/oceania region. i generally only hear about them after they've happened, rarely before
[12:35] <amachu> persia, that would be a good idea
[12:35] <persia> elky: That too.  I'm just trying to stretch it to be RMB related :)
[12:35] <elky> persia, it's giving people ideas to help them, so sort of what you were saying
[12:35]  * elky thinks through the local-ish events happening/cfp'ing ...
[12:36] <persia> elky: That makes sense.  Want to put up the Events wiki pages, broken regionally?
[12:36] <elky> foss.in doesnt seem to have the 2009 page going yet
[12:37] <techno_freak> elky, they are still planning the event, will be out soon
[12:37] <elky> techno_freak, excellent
[12:37] <techno_freak> s/they/we/
[12:37] <elky> techno_freak, good to know :)
[12:37] <techno_freak> :)
[12:38] <techno_freak> elky, hope we can have you this year, we missed you last time :)
[12:38] <elky> techno_freak, it's so close to another event for me, which is sad :(
[12:38] <techno_freak> elky, ohh :(
[12:38] <elky> which i've already been accepted to talk at too
[12:39] <elky> we will see though, when the dates come out
[12:39] <techno_freak> :)
[12:40] <elky> do you know the dates?
[12:40] <techno_freak> elky, sometime around end of Nov or early December, depends upon availability of venue
[12:41] <elky> that part i knew. the conf i speak at is dec 3-5
[12:41] <techno_freak> elky, oh, will ask and confirm you :)
[12:42] <elky> persia, sorry missed your suggestion. a noticeboard wikipage would be good
[12:42] <persia> elky: Thanks :)
[12:42] <elky> people can add something they want us to mention
[12:43] <amachu> elky, persia, is that all?
[12:43] <elky> i believe so
[12:43] <persia> I'm done.
[12:44] <amachu> fine then, thank you every one for participating
[12:44] <elky> i think TheMuso and lifeless have been stolen by shinier stuff already
[12:44] <elky> +1 amachu :)
[12:44] <amachu> mdamt, hoping to see you back
[12:44] <elky> i trust we will
[12:45] <amachu> thank you and this time i have got an un-interrupted connectivity after a long time :-)
[12:45] <e-jat> long time ?
[12:45] <persia> Well, at least the entire length of a meeting: first time I've seen that :)
[12:45] <amachu> persia, yes.
[12:46] <elky> amachu, lets hope you did not just jinx yourself!
[12:46] <amachu> elky, ;)
[12:47] <amachu> am leaving now, bye
[12:47] <zakame> thanks ll
[12:47] <zakame> *all
[15:27] <MianoSM9> .
[15:59] <kirkland> [o]
[15:59] <Koon> o/
[15:59] <sommer> hey all
[16:00] <Koon> hey sommer !
[16:00] <Koon> who else is here for the server team meeting ?
[16:00] <pschulz01_> ping!
[16:00]  * kirkland <---------  that guy
[16:02] <Koon> OK, I'll do my best to replace the incredible mathiaz, who left for a hazardous trip accross Canada
[16:02] <zul> hello
[16:02] <Koon> ok, let's start !
[16:02] <Koon> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is Koon.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <jdstrand_> o/
[16:03] <Koon> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[16:03] <Koon> Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080729
[16:03] <Koon> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:03] <Koon> We have two recorded ACTIONs in last meeting
[16:04] <Koon> kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array
[16:04] <kirkland> Koon: I have a draft, I'll publish today
[16:04] <Koon> kirkland: great !
[16:04] <kirkland> Koon: I set up my own wordpress account, and linked it to planet.ubuntu, so i'll just push it there myself
[16:05] <Koon> more server blogging, nice
[16:05] <Koon> the second action is nijaba's, not sure he is around
[16:05] <kirkland> Koon: I also have an Encrypted Private Dir blog post draft too
[16:05] <kirkland> Koon: I was waiting for the latest merge to make it into the archive, as a couple of scripts changed names
[16:05] <Koon> kirkland: ok.
[16:05] <kirkland> Koon: that happened overnight
[16:06]  * nijaba waves
[16:06] <Koon> nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team
[16:06] <Koon> nijaba: did you have the time to progress on that ?
[16:06] <nijaba> Koon: I am still waiting for the input from Intel on the subject
[16:07] <Koon> nijaba: ok
[16:07] <Koon> nijaba: keep us posted !
[16:07] <nijaba> I will :)
[16:08] <Koon> Let's review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap...
[16:08] <Koon> [TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder
[16:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu VM builder
[16:08] <Koon> soren: around ?
[16:08] <soren> Yes, I am now. Sorry.
[16:09] <soren> I've stumbled a bit on a parted issue that I'm trying to get sorted out.
[16:09] <soren> When that's fixed, I shall be very close indeed to having Xen support in VMBuilder as well as KVM.
[16:09] <soren> Er..
[16:09] <soren> I mean, KVM as well as Xen support in VMBuilder. Not Xen support in KVM.
[16:09] <Koon> I seem to remember you wanted to write some very basic doc on how to get it / test it / run it
[16:10] <soren> Yes, that stalled a bit since there were a few things that were a bit in flux. Those should be sorted out very shortly after I get the parted bug sorted out.
[16:10] <Koon> OK, great!  We'll skip the specs assigned to mathiaz and go directly to...
[16:10] <Koon> [TOPIC] Mail server improvements
[16:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mail server improvements
[16:11] <Koon> ScottK is unfortunately not available but asked me to ask again for help on the MIRs
[16:12] <Koon> If anyone is interested in seeing ClamAV and Spamassassin in main, it's a good time to step up
[16:12] <jdstrand_> it occurred to me the other day that it would be really great if we could have a clamd and freshclam enforcing apparmor profile
[16:12] <mianosm1> That would be in the main repository (suggested/requested at the moment)?
[16:12] <Koon> jdstrand_: that sounds like a nice idea indeed
[16:12] <jdstrand_> with clamav's security history, this would go quite a ways to mitigating its security concerns
[16:13] <jdstrand_> as I may be one of the people reveiwing that bit, I may even require it :)
[16:13] <Koon> mianosm1: yes, see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main
[16:13] <jdstrand_> I just wrote one for myself the other day, so I'd be happy to help ScottK or whoever in that regard
[16:13] <kirkland> I believe that we need an AV in Main
[16:14] <Koon> jdstrand_: ok great.
[16:14] <Koon> [TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID
[16:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID
[16:14] <Koon> kirkland: we already talked a bit about it in the actions
[16:15] <Koon> anything more ?
[16:15] <kirkland> Koon: no additional progress....  I'm going to work on a grub patch this week
[16:15] <Koon> kirkland: ok.
[16:15] <Koon> [TOPIC] Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
[16:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
[16:16] <kirkland> Koon: I will be publishing a blog post today calling for testers
[16:16] <Koon> ok.
[16:16] <kirkland> Koon: this item is ready for heavy duty testing
[16:16] <kirkland> Koon: it has been promoted to main
[16:16] <kirkland> Koon: and kees sponsored a merge yesterday, where I added a bunch of manpages
[16:16] <kirkland> Koon: I'm ready for testers!
[16:17] <Koon> me too, but we'll come to that in a moment ;)
[16:17] <Koon> [TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
[16:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
[16:17] <Koon> is my favorite Ante here ?
[16:18] <Koon> apparently not, let's move on
[16:18] <Koon> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manpage Repository
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manpage Repository
[16:18] <Koon> Dustin strikes again
[16:19] <kirkland> Koon: good news on that front too...  Kees re-reviewed it again, and it fully passed his audit, full support from him on it.
[16:19] <kirkland> Koon: I have an open RT with Canonical IS to take over hosting it
[16:19] <kirkland> Koon: I set a loose deadline of end-of-month
[16:19] <kirkland> Koon: elmo is on it.
[16:20] <Koon> sounds great !
[16:20]  * nijaba hopes elmo is quicker on this one than on the survey server...
[16:20] <kirkland> :-/
[16:21] <Koon> [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
[16:21] <Koon> sommer: ?
[16:21] <sommer> finished the Kerberos section, and it's ready for review: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/kerberos.html
[16:22] <sommer> I think that's the last of the big updates for intrepid :)
[16:22] <Koon> ok, so you welcome reviewers now (as always)
[16:23] <sommer> absolutely, the more the merrier
[16:23] <Koon> that reminds me... I've a couple of likewise-open fixes to push to you
[16:23]  * nealmcb suddenly remembers what time zone he's in....
[16:23] <sommer> Koon: cool, just let me know
[16:23] <Koon> nealmcb: \o/
[16:24] <Koon> sommer: on the AD part. I will
[16:24] <Koon> ok, that's all for the specs, I think, let me know if I forgot something
[16:25] <Koon> [TOPIC] Call for likewise-open update testing
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Call for likewise-open update testing
[16:25] <Koon> OK, so I've been working on likewise-open updates for Intrepid
[16:25] <Koon> there is test branch up at Likewise with what should become the next version
[16:25] <Koon> (>4.1.0)
[16:26] <Koon> I've been packaging that, there is a lot of nice fixes
[16:26] <Koon> but also potential for nice regressions ;)
[16:26] <Koon> so we'll need some widespread testing before I can push that new version anywhere near main
[16:27] <Koon> A very fresh version is currently building on my PPA
[16:27] <nijaba> Koon: EtienneG is working on a WP on the subject, please feel free to feed him news and I am sure he would be a good tester :)
[16:27] <Koon> https://launchpad.net/~tcarrez/+archive
[16:27] <Koon> likewise-open - 4.1.0.2956-0ubuntu1~ppa2
[16:28] <Koon> ivoks :o/
[16:28] <ivoks> hi
[16:28] <Koon> I've tested that domain join, leave, authentication works correctly, and I already patched two regressions
[16:29] <Koon> I'm especially interested in regressions, since that version won't solve all existing bugs (even if it solves most of them)
[16:29] <Koon> Anyone having been in contact with likewise-open in hardy and wanting to test in intrepid ?
[16:30] <sommer> Koon: I should be able to give it a test this weekend
[16:30] <sommer> if not sooner
[16:30] <Koon> sommer: that's great !
[16:31] <Koon> I'll do some more thorough testing on the very fresh ppa2 version tomorrow. Just take whatever is the freshest in my PPA at that time
[16:31] <Koon> let's move on
[16:31] <sommer> Koon: do you need the gui part tested as well as the cli?
[16:32] <Koon> sommer: yes
[16:32] <Koon> I found one regression on the GUI (a missing icon)
[16:32] <jdstrand_> a
[16:32] <Koon> not sure there is much more regression potential there... but one never knows
[16:33] <Koon> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[16:33] <Koon> macd sent an email to ubuntu-server ML asking for one more MOTU ack for NeilW's passenger package to progress onthe RubyOnRails spec
[16:34] <Koon> whoever is MOTU, has some free time and interest in Ruby call help him
[16:34] <Koon> s/call/can
[16:34] <Koon> anyone else has a subject / item / beer to share with the group ?
[16:36] <pschulz01> I would just like to thank you guys for all your efforts...
[16:36] <sommer> Koon: have you tried creating a samba share after joining a domain with likewise?
[16:36] <sommer> Koon: just wondering if we need a AD integration section in the samba chapter when likewise does such a good job?
[16:37] <nealmcb> soren: At OSCON I went to a talk by nat friedmanon that demo'd SUSE's appliance building web site - very impressive....  but it was still in a closed alpha or beta   http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/detail/4727
[16:37] <Koon> sommer: yes, with mixed results (I seem to remeber a superfluous password query)
[16:38] <nijaba> nealmcb: yeah, I chatted with him and Guy Lunardi on the same subject. We are doing very similar stuff, except that they are not planning to release their web based source code AFAIK
[16:38] <sommer> Koon: mmm... I was just wanting to make sure that permissions and stuff worked using AD users
[16:39] <sommer> Koon: I'll do some more testing with your new package version, thanks
[16:39] <Koon> sommer: there are a few important fixes, one of them is being able to remove likewise-open while a domain is joined without nuking your system
[16:39] <Koon> one other is the service not starting after a reboot issue
[16:39] <nijaba> nealmcb: moreover, their supported juice (not the openSuse one) requires an activation code on a per parter basis
[16:39] <Koon> and the last one being a conflict with the current samba in intrepid
[16:40] <nealmcb> nijaba: too bad.  mainly I was thinking the slides would be of interest and the feature set they target is worth considering
[16:41] <nijaba> nealmcb: sure, they are. I did not get their slides, did you?
[16:41] <nealmcb> they're liking kvm more and more also
[16:41] <Koon> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
[16:41] <Koon> same place, same time, next week ?
[16:42] <Koon> (mathiaz should be back!)
[16:42] <ivoks> sure
[16:42] <nealmcb> nijaba: I haven't seen them yet
[16:42]  * nijaba will be in vacation next week
[16:42]  * ivoks is at the vacation right now :)
[16:42] <nealmcb> the slides should have been up on the web last week as I understand it
[16:42]  * nealmcb is also vacationing
[16:42] <Koon> my vacation starts next Wednesday so I should be there
[16:42] <sommer> no fair :(
[16:43] <nijaba> ivoks: I'll be in the mountains with no laptop/network access, not even gsm :(
[16:43] <nealmcb> Irvine - classic sunny california
[16:43] <Koon> Cassis - classic sunny French Riviera
[16:43] <ivoks> nijaba: uff... french alps?
[16:43] <nealmcb> and next week in Flagstaff AZ - and I'll be here....
[16:43]  * nijaba will be in Yosemite if it has not burned before...
[16:43] <Koon> Thanks all for coming !
[16:44] <nealmcb> hmmm - oops - maybe not - somewhere in New Mexico....
[16:44] <nijaba> ivoks: yosemite: california
[16:44]  * nealmcb will ping nat for the slides
[16:44] <nijaba> thanks nealmcb
[16:44] <nijaba> thanks for hosting the meeting Koon
[16:45] <nealmcb> nice job
[16:45] <sommer> thanks Koon, later on all
[16:45] <kirkland> thanks Koon
[16:45] <ivoks> later all
[16:45] <Koon> #endmeeting
[16:45] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:49.
[16:45] <nealmcb> quick meeting!
[16:45] <Koon> nealmcb: I like it quick ;)
[16:45] <Koon> ...
[16:45] <emgent> @schedule rome
[19:52] <Myrtti> @now Helsinki
[19:53] <Seveas> @hug Myrtti
[19:53] <Myrtti> meh.
[19:54] <Myrtti> I got UTC and BST mixed up
[20:03] <bazhang> @now Taipei
[20:03] <Myrtti> bazhang: GO TO SLEEP
[20:04]  * Myrtti pats bazhang's tush and points bed
[20:04] <bazhang> too late Myrtti :)
[20:04] <Myrtti> rockabye baaaby on a tree tooooopp
[20:04] <bazhang> :)
[20:04] <bazhang> oh wait is that sev?
[20:09] <Seveas> Rinchen-sprint, "Sprintchen"?
[20:10] <Rinchen-sprint> hehe that's me
[20:10]  * bazhang waves to Seveas 
[20:11] <nellery> @schedule Vancouver
[20:34] <Myrtti> meh.
[20:41] <dennda> @schedule berlin
[21:59] <pwnguin> @schedule chicago
[22:01] <Burgundavia> @schedule vancouver
[22:02] <popey> moo
[22:02] <Technoviking> super-moo
[22:03] <Seveas> mootastic
[22:03] <Technoviking> doing two meetings at once (one in RL, one in irc), may be distracted
[22:04] <Seveas> @now
[22:04] <Seveas> meeting is in an hour :)
[22:04] <mdke> evening
[22:04] <Technoviking> doh
[22:04] <mdke> eh?
[22:04] <sabdfl> evening all
[22:04] <popey> it says 21:00 UTC on the wiki
[22:04] <mdke> meeting is now
[22:05] <mdke> popey: right
[22:05] <Seveas> ah, fridge is off
[22:05] <mdke> Seveas: when I looked at the fridge calendar earlier today, it was right
[22:05] <sabdfl> who's present, do we have quorum?
[22:05] <mdke> yeah, it's right - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1550
[22:06] <Technoviking> here, kinda:)
[22:06] <Seveas> bot's broken then
[22:06] <mdke> elmo and Burgundavia are due, I think
[22:06] <Technoviking> elmo just popped in and out
[22:07]  * Burgundavia is here
[22:07] <sabdfl> ok, then let's begin, elmo will have scrollback
[22:07] <sabdfl> mdke: you're up
[22:08] <mdke> sabdfl: I believe that the first two items were discussed at a past meeting, although i wasn't around
[22:08] <sabdfl> ok, we're all agreed on your LP lists item
[22:09] <sabdfl> i can raise the matter again with the LP developers
[22:09] <mdke> I'm happy that doesn't need further discussion
[22:09] <sabdfl> have you noticed an improvement since this was discussed publicly?
[22:09] <sabdfl> i think encouraging unofficial lists to be on LP is sensible, because it will make it easier to migrate them to being "official" later
[22:09] <mdke> sabdfl: I haven't been paying close attention; but I saw that LP lists are still being recommended around the place. I have been meaning for some time to followup on your email and discuss it with jorge/jono
[22:10] <mdke> yes, agreed on the unofficial bit
[22:10] <sabdfl> ok, i'll start a new thread
[22:10] <sabdfl> could you turn this text into a more official statement from the CC, and put it on the mailing lists page?
[22:10] <mdke> sabdfl: sure, let me follow up on your last email and we'll take it forward from there
[22:11] <sabdfl> i'll start a new thread to shotgun and make sure we've got coverage of LP senior devs as well as ops
[22:11] <mdke> :)
[22:12] <mdke> what is the status of item 2 (Danish Team as legal entity)?
[22:12] <mdke> that was also discussed in the past, I think
[22:12] <sabdfl> it's waiting from a response from me
[22:13] <sabdfl> i can't think of a good specific reason to say no, other than that it's not worked well in the past, elsewhere
[22:13] <sabdfl> or rather, it has caused problems elsewhere, for Jane and others at Canonical
[22:13] <sabdfl> because, when things go wrong, we feel obliged to step in and help
[22:13] <Mez> just a quick interruption, the bot has been advertising the time of this for 11pm BST for some reason....
[22:13] <mdke> I'm pretty sceptical about legal entities as well, myself. Probably comes of being a lawyer, but I think the variety of legal systems is always going to cause issues
[22:13] <sabdfl> but, in this case, the guys seem to have worked through many of the issues
[22:13] <sabdfl> indeed
[22:14] <Myrtti> merh, where are we on the agenda?
[22:14] <mdke> having said that, I think that without a strong central foundation for raising or distributing funds within the community, this sort of need will keep arising within local teams, it's going to be difficult to stop that
[22:14] <popey> Myrtti: dk legal entity
[22:15] <sabdfl> fundraising isn't the driver in this particular case
[22:15] <Myrtti> mailing list issue went already?
[22:15] <sabdfl> we do have the Ubuntu Foundation
[22:15] <sabdfl> Myrtti: yes
[22:15] <Burgundavia> does it exist as a legal entity?
[22:15] <pwnguin> do we have the ubuntu foundation?
[22:15] <Burgundavia> and is it a registered charity?
[22:15] <Seveas> sabdfl, the fr/de verein is working well, isn't it?
[22:15] <sabdfl> yes, in the Isle of Man
[22:15] <sabdfl> Seveas: see my clarification
[22:15] <mdke> sabdfl: but as I understand it, only as a trust, and not an active foundation in the same way as the Gnome foundation
[22:16] <sabdfl> mdke: yes
[22:16] <Burgundavia> what is the Wikimedia foundation doing for stuff like this? I know they have worked through a bunch of the cross border stuff
[22:16] <Myrtti> hm, I seem to have bumped into at appropriate time
[22:16] <sabdfl> what sorts of things would be handled in a foundation, that aren't handled by Canonical?
[22:16] <Myrtti> we in Finland are having same thoughts
[22:17] <pwnguin> sabdfl: nouveau?
[22:17] <sabdfl> pwnguin: what about it, specifically?
[22:17] <Myrtti> as a legal entity we'd be entitled to receive donations tax free
[22:17] <sabdfl> Myrtti: yes, but it can also create as much in the way of trouble as opportunity
[22:17] <Seveas> sabdfl, fundraising, sponsoring for hosting, sponsoring for releaseparties (in the ubuntu-nl case)
[22:18] <Myrtti> sabdfl: I'm very aware of it - very, very very aware
[22:18] <mdke> sabdfl: it would provide a way for non-Canonical provided funds to be allocated and distributed in a transparent way, and specific teams (local teams) might be able to fund raise for their own activities
[22:18] <pwnguin> i spoke with a nouveau pledge drive guy, and he suggested that the money could have been useful but none of the non profits were able to help them for various reasons; this has changed some
[22:18] <sabdfl> mdke: it's not transparent by legal registration
[22:18] <popey> pwnguin: last i heard nouveau were awash with cash and needed developers more than money
[22:18] <mdke> sabdfl: I know
[22:18] <sabdfl> the transparency is a function of how well the specific individuals run the org
[22:19] <pwnguin> popey: from who?
[22:19] <sabdfl> and history suggests there's quite a wide std deviation in that regard!
[22:19] <popey> i dont recall, sorry
[22:19] <pwnguin> i spoke with marcheu in writing an article on the subject, and they seem to get by mainly without money
[22:19] <ompaul> sabdfl, a set of guidelines on what is required to maintain the backing for the use of the name, something almost that would have an audit trail and be open to audit?
[22:20] <sabdfl> nouveau is not really related to this discussion
[22:20] <pwnguin> true
[22:20] <sabdfl> ompaul: yes, i think that's what we concluded last time
[22:20] <mdke> anyway, I don't really have a feel for whether if there was an active central foundation, that would solve the local teams' needs; we should probably start by asking them, if it's a genuine option
[22:20] <sabdfl> that we would let this group use the ubuntu name if they reported regularly and transparently on their status
[22:21] <sabdfl> and if they remained receptive to the CC
[22:21] <Myrtti> luckily in Finland we already have Finnish Linux User Group as registered nonprofit
[22:21] <Burgundavia> so should we encourage the loco teams to piggyback on other non-profits if possible?
[22:21] <Myrtti> don't need to create a new one and also allows natural coworking with the people from other distro communities
[22:21] <sabdfl> indeed
[22:22] <mdke> Burgundavia: definitely, if that can solve the problem.
[22:22] <sabdfl> i would be delighted to have a well-run org registered, with public accounts, AGM's, and diligent reporting
[22:22] <mdke> possibly certain local teams feel that they can't get away without a locally registered entity. If that happens, and if we are clear that the reasons are right, and it's been done correctly, it's difficult to object
[22:22] <Myrtti> we did a great project again last weekend at Assembly demoparty, though this year there wasn't that many people from other distros helping with helpdesking the Linux users among the 5000+ visitors
[22:23] <sabdfl> Myrtti: cool - i've wanted to go to Assembly for a couple of years!
[22:23] <Burgundavia> so if they want to use the name, they have to a be a registered charity? (strawman for discussion)
[22:23] <sabdfl> anyhow - here's the guidance
[22:23] <Myrtti> sabdfl: was planning to invite you to speak next year
[22:23] <Myrtti> :-P
[22:23] <sabdfl> if we have confidence in a loco team's standing, and they make a case for a legal entity, and we know who is on the hook, and they commit to regular transparent accounting and reporting to the CC, then +1
[22:23] <Myrtti> (as you'd prolly bring cd's [we ran out of them on Thursday])
[22:24] <sabdfl> i will ask Jono to maintain a list of the approved ones, and a schedule for their reporting
[22:24] <sabdfl> and we will recall the right to the name if the reporting falls behind
[22:24] <sabdfl> this has to stay rigorous, or we *know* it will turn into a mess
[22:24] <Burgundavia> by reporting, we mean the legal reporting any charity has to do?
[22:24] <mdke> I agree 100%
[22:25] <mdke> sabdfl: checking the case for each team and so on is going to be time intensive; there are often teams which will think they need it, but actually don't. Perhaps the loco council can help us with those tasks
[22:25] <mdke> maybe by providing an initial filter for applications
[22:25] <sabdfl> ok
[22:25] <sabdfl> does jono run the loco council?
[22:26] <popey> define run
[22:26] <Burgundavia> should be document these bits anywhere so that we don't get spurious requests?
[22:26] <sabdfl> popey: chairwoman?
[22:26] <mdke> sabdfl: jono isn't on the loco council, afaik
[22:26] <popey> he isn't
[22:26] <sabdfl> ah
[22:27] <sabdfl> then a second mail will be required, rather than tacking this onto the one i am already writing to jono :-)
[22:27] <popey> we do seek advice from him on matters, he does give us some direction
[22:27] <sabdfl> popey: ok, ok, i can take a hint
[22:27] <sabdfl> i'll mail you then ;-)
[22:27] <popey> bugger
[22:27] <mdke> I think that Jono and the loco council can definitely provide a useful filter for such applications, if they are willing, and have the capacity
[22:29] <sabdfl> popey: keeping track of the reporting is something that will be important to Canonical, because it's a trademark matter, i'm happy to delegate it to the Loco council if they are happy to commit to doing as rigorous a job there as they do elsewhere when firing on all cylinders
[22:29] <sabdfl> fairy nuff?
[22:29] <popey> feel free to fire it our way, but the other guys need to speak up too
[22:30] <sabdfl> ok. will mail, let's mosey on in the agenda
[22:30] <mdke> we'll see how it goes; if it is becoming a problem then we can easily modify the procedure
[22:30] <popey> i have concerns, but I'll attack that via mail
[22:30] <mdke> ok
[22:30] <mdke> is cody here?
[22:31] <boredandblogging> he is in -news, but not in here, I pinged him
[22:31] <mdke> fabian?thanks
[22:31]  * Mez pinged him too
[22:31] <mdke> whoops
[22:31] <mdke> hi cody-somerville, you're up
[22:31] <cody-somerville> Hello
[22:32]  * cody-somerville smiles.
[22:32] <sabdfl> roll on cody-somerville
[22:32] <sabdfl> sec
[22:33] <sabdfl> is Acelin here for the interface item?
[22:33]  * cody-somerville blames the bot for being late. (;] Mez)
[22:33] <sabdfl> Salane?
[22:33] <mdke> damn, sorry I didn't spot the interface item
[22:33] <sabdfl> ok, w.r.t. the UI
[22:33] <sabdfl> i've encouraged salane to work with kwwii
[22:33] <sabdfl> who has a mandate to lead the artwork and styling
[22:34] <sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
[22:34] <sabdfl> and anybody who has a professional interest in this should definitely apply there
[22:34] <sabdfl> as always, we will try to engage with the community as effectively as possible
[22:34] <mdke> ok. it's not an issue for us, I don't think. If there are issues with the art team's procedures as suggested we need a bit more detail about it
[22:34] <sabdfl> there was a discussion the other day about ensuring that there's at least one community-generated theme
[22:34] <sabdfl> however
[22:35] <sabdfl> historically, art collaboration has been near zero
[22:35] <sabdfl> we see a lot of folks showing up with no context, and insisting that there will be no progress unless *their* theme ships
[22:35] <pwnguin> the heron background was a collaboration, no?
[22:35] <Mez> sabdfl, you should speak to seele about HCI/usability stuff - she does a great job in KDEland
[22:35] <sabdfl> i don't know about heron, i think kwwii lead that
[22:36] <sabdfl> Mez: that's quite different to art, though related of course
[22:36] <pwnguin> a rather vocal critic of the art team direction gave a history of the backgroud; I can't say how accurate it is
[22:36] <sabdfl> pwnguin: there are only vocal critics of the art team
[22:36] <pwnguin> he
[22:36] <Mez> I was referring to <sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
[22:36] <sabdfl> ah, thanks Mez
[22:36] <Mez> (slow at typing on here)
[22:37] <sabdfl> i live in hope of a good leader emerging there, but have been unable to engineer that myself
[22:37] <sabdfl> i think we will have to have a strong leader who is full time, and open to contributions
[22:37] <sabdfl> so, for example, if we do 80% of the icons, be open to contributions of another 20%
[22:37] <sabdfl> but having lots of people submit their own 10% just ain't progress
[22:38] <sabdfl> any other commentary from the CC?
[22:38] <mdke> not here
[22:39] <sabdfl> going, going...
[22:39] <Burgundavia> sounds good to me
[22:39] <sabdfl> gone. Xubuntu, you're up
[22:39] <cody-somerville> Back in March, we held the first of a series of meetings that have involved a wide diversity of interested parties from many different backgrounds and group.
[22:40] <cody-somerville> The goal of these meetings have been to ultimately develop a document that describes a strategy for the Xubuntu project.
[22:40] <cody-somerville> It was felt that such a document would enable Xubuntu to become a sustainable and healthy project.
[22:41] <sabdfl> hmm... less preamble, sooner content for the win
[22:41] <cody-somerville> I'm proud to say that I'm ready to share the fruit of that labour and ask for official recognition and ratification of the document by the Community Council.
[22:41] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: what does Xfce4 upstream think of this?
[22:41] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, They're very encouraged.
[22:42] <sabdfl> i ask because it's very important to have the support of upstream, and preferably, have them actively participating
[22:42] <sabdfl> even if compromises sometimes need to be made
[22:42] <sabdfl> "Xubuntu is not specifically targeted to Xfce4 enthusiasts, as projects/software being hosted by the Xfce4 project or associating (officially or unofficially) with Xfce4 are not guaranteed inclusion in Xubuntu over other applications which may be a better fit for Xubuntu."
[22:42] <sabdfl> this could put you at odds with them
[22:43] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, We had several developers join us at our meetings.
[22:43] <sabdfl> like, for example, shipping FF instead of epiphany gives some folks heartburn, which we actively work to alleviate
[22:43]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:43] <sabdfl> i think being willing to compromise some if useful, but it's really important to have some buy-in upstream for that
[22:44] <cody-somerville> At https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument#head-c7fb09a1a0ff5ac3d53e1f64a1bbd51aad7e20c1 we identify the core components that are considered the identity of Xubuntu
[22:44] <cody-somerville> Those components are also the core components of the Xfce4 project.
[22:45] <sabdfl> foci, there's a one-word contradiction for you ;-)
[22:46]  * Myrtti shudders at seeing xfce4-terminal
[22:46] <mdke> it's a long document, I don't feel able to fully do it justice now, but there are some big picture things we can talk about
[22:46] <mdke> i think a close analysis will need a few days digesting it
[22:46]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:47] <sabdfl> the profiles idea is nice, as a formal testing goal during the cycle
[22:47] <mdke> I'm interested mainly in the governance aspect, given that we're the CC and the Xubuntu community needs to have some scope for determining its own goals
[22:47] <mdke> I'd really like to see a Council evolving sooner rather than later
[22:47] <sabdfl> agreed
[22:47] <mdke> and I'd like to see its relationship with the CC more clearly defined, as we discussed privately cody-somerville
[22:48] <sabdfl> also, we had a bad start with the irc council and xubuntu leaders apparently in conflict unnecessarily
[22:48] <cody-somerville> Yes.
[22:48] <sabdfl> i'd like some reassurance that sort of thing won't recur
[22:48] <mdke> cody-somerville: do you envisage that the project leader would continue to exist as a role even after a Council is in place?
[22:49] <mdke> deal with one topic at a time, sorry to cross over with sabdfl's question
[22:49] <cody-somerville> I'd like to hear from the CC how they'd like to see the Xubuntu leadership interact with other governance bodies.
[22:49] <sabdfl> imo, it does help to have a designated chair, or other sort of arbiter, in a project like this
[22:50] <sabdfl> so i'm not opposed to that role, as long as it's part of the council
[22:50]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:50] <mdke> sabdfl: it would be unique, I think - or do other Council's have such a role?
[22:50] <sabdfl> the CC would typically nominate folks to the project council
[22:51] <sabdfl> Ryan Troy was the first chair of the Forums Council, Seveas the first of the IRC council, iirc
[22:51]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:51] <Seveas> (IRC council is currently without chair afaik)
[22:51] <Mez> sabdfl, though the IRCC has no lead atm)
[22:52] <sabdfl> yes
[22:52] <Mez> (though we are sorting out nominations for new people on the IRCC to fill up now-vacant spots)
[22:52] <mdke> cody-somerville: well, from my point of view, the Xubuntu Council would be treated the same way as other team councils that exist, described on CommunityCouncil/Delegation
[22:52] <sabdfl> i see no reason for it to be done differently
[22:52] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, mdke: Agreed.
[22:53] <mdke> if issues cannot be resolved by the team council, they can be delegated to us as usual
[22:53] <sabdfl> i think the doc is well constructed, though it needs a bit of an editorial pass for style
[22:53] <mdke> ditto if an inter-team issue arises, as with the recent irc issue (although as sabdfl said, better if such issues don't arise at all)
[22:54] <mdke> s/delegated/escalated
[22:54]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:55] <cody-somerville> Thus far Xubuntu has been more autonomous then say Kubuntu. Is it preferred for Xubuntu to be more closely tied in?
[22:55] <mdke> Kubuntu is pretty autonomous
[22:55]  * cody-somerville nods.
[22:55] <cody-somerville> Okay.
[22:55] <mdke> from a governance point of view, anyway, we haven't really intervened at all
[22:56] <mdke> at least since I've been on the CC
[22:56] <sabdfl> it's nice to see the proposed community structure
[22:56] <sabdfl> good work, cody-somerville
[22:56] <sabdfl> and team
[22:57] <mdke> yes, good job
[22:57] <mdke> if the document can be made a bit shorter, that would be good
[22:57] <sabdfl> says very clearly how things are to be organised
[22:57] <cody-somerville> :]
[22:57] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, thank you
[22:57] <mdke> a small point, when you say "this team is owned by the Xubuntu Council", you might say "this team reports to the Xubuntu Council" (i understand that you're referring to the LP team structure, but it sounds a little autocratic)

[22:58] <mdke> where do we go from here? can we deal with the detail of the document and/or points of style by email?
[22:58] <sabdfl> some of the code of conduct stuff isn't needed, it's inherited from Ubuntu
[22:59] <cody-somerville> Okay.
[22:59] <mdke> any questions from Burgundavia, Technoviking and elmo?
[23:00] <Technoviking> mdke none here, look good to me with the comments made
[23:00] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: this is a very good start. i would strip out pieces that are inherited from Ubuntu, like the CoC guidance (you can say that this project is as much subject to the CoC as any other in ubuntu)
[23:00]  * cody-somerville nods.
[23:00] <sabdfl> i would also reiterate the importance of upstream support
[23:00]  * cody-somerville nods.
[23:00] <sabdfl> would be disappointed to hear that upstream wasn't consulted on a major component decision, for example, and was upset
[23:01] <cody-somerville> sabdfl, Agreed.
[23:01] <sabdfl> the pieces that talk about upstream relations, bug tracking etc are excellent
[23:01] <Burgundavia> not from me
[23:01] <sabdfl> +1 from me
[23:01] <sabdfl> Burgundavia: not? or none?
[23:01] <Burgundavia> +1 from me
[23:01] <Technoviking> +1 here
[23:02] <elmo> sorry, I came in late due to /topic ambush, I'll have to abstain till I can catch up
[23:03] <sabdfl> ok, Planet
[23:03] <Burgundavia> ah, Planet
[23:03]  * cody-somerville has a question.
[23:03] <sabdfl> are magicfab and/or \sh here?
[23:03] <sabdfl> cody-somerville: go ahead?
[23:03] <Mez> \sh doesnt seem to be
[23:03] <mdke> before we start planet I should point out that as far as policy questions go we have an approved policy document, so probably we can leave big picture issues about "what is planet for?" aside and concentrate on the specific issue
[23:04] <cody-somerville> Just to clarify, the CC would like me to bring the document back for a second confirmation after making edits based on the suggestions given above?
[23:04] <mdke> (ref - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy)
[23:05] <mdke> cody-somerville: I think we can do it by email, that gives us more time to digest it carefully; subject to what others think
[23:05] <LaserJock> mdke: just a quick question, that text is not on Planet Ubuntu, is that spec not implemented?
[23:05] <pwnguin> I believe magicfab is at a conference and cannot make it today
[23:06] <mdke> LaserJock: yes, that's correct. I have an rt open about it though so it will be implemented in due course
[23:06] <LaserJock> mdke: ah, ok. thanks for that clarification
[23:07] <Mez> to me it seems like the original issue was over the "wtf" in the title?
[23:07] <mdke> Mez: I think it is the reference to masturbation in the blog text
[23:08] <mdke> although I'm not 100% sure about what that actually means
[23:08] <pwnguin> from what ive gathered its about both
[23:08] <Mez> mdke, me either re-reading it...
[23:08] <mdke> in the absence of Fabian / Stephan, should we discuss the specific complaint or postpone that until they can attend?
[23:08] <Mez> I didnt sot that before
[23:09] <mdke> there is a general issue we could discuss - to whom should complaints about specific posts on Planet be directed?
[23:09] <mdke> they are rare enough that I'd say the CC is probably the appropriate place, what do others think?
[23:10] <pwnguin> i think if CC is willing to play dispute resolution we'll be better off for it
[23:10] <Technoviking> mdke: I say the CC, this is only the second time in over a year
[23:10] <Burgundavia> I don't see the need for anything else at the current moment
[23:10] <sabdfl> i'm trying to decide if my dislike of the post is personal, or professional
[23:10] <mdke> sabdfl: rofl
[23:10] <mdke> Technoviking: nod
[23:10] <pwnguin> but there's some sort of failure here if neither party attends
[23:11] <mdke> pwnguin: complaints can be discussed by email if necessary
[23:11] <Mez> The thing is here, is that I personally hear a lot of complaints regarding the "family friendly" part of the IRC Guidelines.
[23:11] <Technoviking> sabdfl: agree, I'm not offend by it personally, but it is not the image of Ubuntu I want to project
[23:12] <popey> maybe the planet should have digg-style buttons so people can voice their opinion easily without typing reply blogs fully of vitriol :)
[23:12] <Mez> This is the same thing really.. and a judgement here... sets a precedent
[23:13] <Technoviking> popey: Digg = Fail
[23:13] <LaserJock> would it help if the CC did ratify a Planet Code of Conduct?
[23:13] <popey> Technoviking: it was a joke :)
[23:13] <LaserJock> the CoC is helpful in general, but perhaps a version specifically targeted to Planet would be useful
[23:14] <pwnguin> what would it say?
[23:14] <mdke> LaserJock: I think the regular code of conduct deals with it ok; I'm reluctant to have too many documents like that around
[23:14] <Burgundavia> much like the forums specific one?
[23:14] <mdke> the CoC's power is in its simplicity
[23:14] <Mez> mdke, there is a LOT of wiggle room in the CoC though
[23:14] <pwnguin> good
[23:14] <Flannel> Mez: that's not necessarily a bad thing.
[23:14] <mdke> Mez: that's intentional
[23:15] <Technoviking> popey: I know:)
[23:15] <popey> ah, thought the humor sensor was on the blink :)
[23:15] <LaserJock> sure, but in areas where there are particular issues, perhaps the wriggle room needs clarity
[23:15] <mdke> but the planet policy document kinda deals with these issues, I think
[23:15] <LaserJock> mdke: indeed
[23:15] <mdke> like the bit which sabdfl wrote about "By and large, we take a "liberal Western" view of matters moral. That means we don't blush too much when sex is discussed, though we prefer to keep it practical, to keep personal preferences private, and never to criticize or belittle others on gender or sexuality grounds."
[23:15] <Mez> mdke, except when it comes down to making a judgement in respect to something like this... if you're in the wiggle room, then any judgement is going to cause issues with people disagreeing...
[23:15] <LaserJock> it seems to me that the problem is generally people having different expectations of Planet
[23:16] <Mez> but then, I guess this is where ompaul comes in and tells me I think too black and white
[23:16] <popey> LaserJock: and different uses for it
[23:16] <popey> "I use it for news gathering". "I use it to see behind the developers", "I use it to waste 10 mins at work"
[23:17] <Myrtti> "you're too pin
[23:17] <Mez> LaserJock, indeed... I see the planet as an insight to the developers, they have interesting blogs... If I want news, I use the fridge.
[23:17] <Flannel> Mez: those people would already be up in arms if it were laid out in writing.  And each 'wiggle room' incident's verdict depends a lot on the specifics of the situation.
[23:17] <mdke> LaserJock: the policy document deals with that; but I think Fabian and /sh just have a different view on appropriate content, rather than topic
[23:17] <Myrtti> ^H^H^H^Hblack and white"
[23:17] <LaserJock> I've generally been lately encouraging people to use Fridge for news and Planet for "the window into Ubuntu member's world" which you may occasionally be offended by
[23:17] <sabdfl> \sh was clearly talking about masturbation, and not in a particularly practical sense either
[23:17] <sabdfl> then, he insisted not to be
[23:17] <sabdfl> but the inference is clear
[23:17] <Mez> LaserJock, that leaves something out...
[23:18] <Mez> LaserJock, the documentation of progress, status updates etc.
[23:18] <sabdfl> i think that's unacceptable
[23:18] <LaserJock> Mez: I think those are included
[23:18] <Mez> It's not news, it's not "personal"...
[23:18] <pwnguin> my only complaint is this interpretation that "WTF" in text and urls is disrespectful. the content part only arose after I asked about it =/
[23:18] <persia> Only about a quarter of those eligible to post on planet are developers: having too much of a development-centric view may be misleading anyway, regardless of public perception.
[23:19] <LaserJock> Mez: if it's personal stuff = Planet, if it's team/announcement stuff = Fridge
[23:19] <emmajane> mdke I've been trying to find the planet guidelines but have failed. URL, please?
[23:19] <popey> if WTF is complaint-worthy then so is RTFM
[23:19] <Mez> LaserJock, I thik that theres a lot of people who want to see the technical side and none of the "personal" stuff... and some who want to see it the other way
[23:19] <LaserJock> Mez: by personal I'm not saying non-technical
[23:19] <mdke> emmajane: i think you came in after I posted it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy
[23:19] <Myrtti> RTFM is even more complaint-worthy
[23:19] <sabdfl> i have no problem with WTF, it's a pretty standard interjection, as is RTFM
[23:19] <LaserJock> Mez: I'm saying, non-official statements, etc. Just individual Ubuntu people talking about what they're doing
[23:20] <mdke> yes, I agree with sabdfl about the specific post
[23:20] <popey> exactly, neither is particularly offensive if not directed at the individual
[23:20] <sabdfl> LaserJock: i agree, Planet is informal
[23:20] <pwnguin> well, RTFM is a bit disrespectful to the person presumably asking a question
[23:20] <mdke> the second post is not particularly constructive either
[23:20] <boredandblogging> the planet still isn't a good place to post about updates, it rolls off in a day
[23:20] <Myrtti> I've got personal issues with RTFM - RTFM is the thing that drove me away from Linux for three years before I found Ubuntu
[23:20] <Flannel> pwnguin: We don't allow RTFM in IRC because of it.
[23:20] <sabdfl> pwnguin: except that it's become standard... Read the Fine Manual ;-)
[23:20] <Mez> LaserJock, I know - but - theres also people who see planet as "what the peope behind ubuntu are doing for ubuntu" kinda thing... an "ubuntu planet" rather than a "ubuntu members planet" - does that make sense?
[23:21] <pwnguin> sabdfl: apparently the IRC council disagrees ;=)
[23:21] <popey> gah, i meant RTFM as in used as a piece of text, not as in "directed at someone"
[23:21] <LaserJock> Mez: and that's ok, if it's personal
[23:21] <Flannel> pwnguin: but, RTFM is directly insulting to the questioner, "WTF" or other things like that aren't insults usually.
[23:21] <mdke> Mez: and that is fine
[23:21] <Myrtti> everyone using that acronym on my watch is seriously in danger of being poked with a Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[23:21] <ompaul> normally use of rtfm would get you  ubottu> Acronyms or statements like  noob, jfgi, stfu or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.
[23:21] <LaserJock> but if people want to know about official announcements, team-related material, I think Fridge is more appropriate
[23:21] <mdke> LaserJock: there is no rule that news cannot be posted to Planet; it's a resource that people read. However people shouldn't expect it to be a news resource only; it's a big pot of what Ubuntu members want to blog about
[23:21] <sabdfl> Myrtti: he, i need a ﻿Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
[23:21] <LaserJock> which takes away some of the expectation that Planet should be "professional"
[23:22] <Technoviking> I feel people need to consider two things when feeding blogs post to the Planet 1. Does it interest the audience who read the Planet. 2. Does it represent Ubuntu/Ubuntu Community in a positive (even when it is a negative comment)
[23:22] <sabdfl> LaserJock: +1 that Planet is informal by design, and should stay that way
[23:22] <pwnguin> professional means "do not read". look how many people read "Risks Digest" versus "DailyWTF"
[23:22] <sabdfl> but i think it's also reasonable to filter things that are totally unrelated to Ubuntu or FLOSS
[23:22] <popey> ompaul: i mentioned RTFM _not_ directed at the individual, merely as an example of another acronym which as FSCK in it, and it is used often - often _NOT_ directed at people
[23:22] <Technoviking> s/positive/positive way
[23:22] <Mez> sabdfl, really?
[23:23] <mdke> Technoviking: I think that is a little bit too restrictive. People should be able to blog about whatever they wish, as long as it is compatible with the guidelines and common sense
[23:23] <ompaul> popey, yeap, I understood
[23:23] <ompaul> popey, I did prefix my comment, it is always about context
[23:23] <mdke> sabdfl: I disagree
[23:23] <mdke> (with the last bit)
[23:23] <Mez> sabdfl, to me, seeing <forgotten names> posts about how he's been fighting his illness etc etc...
[23:23] <Mez> that wouldnt be FLOSS/Ubuntu related.
[23:24] <Mez> but I want to see that...
[23:24] <sabdfl> i would say that the majority of a contributors posts should be Ubuntu or aligned, and the exceptions should not be offensive
[23:24] <emmajane> I think it might be nice to have more on what is appropriate in teh guidelines. I quite like the Flickr guidelines where people are encouraged to self-moderate. http://flickr.com/guidelines.gne
[23:24] <mdke> I tend to read with interest posts about member's non-Ubuntu related activities
[23:24] <mdke> sabdfl: nothing should be offensive, sure
[23:24] <pwnguin> mdke: given the number of people aggregated in planet ubuntu, its a bit nessecary to filter somewhere =(
[23:24] <popey> agreed mdke
[23:24] <popey> pwnguin: in the head of the reader?
[23:24] <pwnguin> or with a grep filter
[23:25] <mdke> emmajane: those are interesting, thanks
[23:25] <popey> nobody is forcing anyone to read it
[23:25] <sabdfl> mdke: what do you think about a case where a good contributor (say, a translator) never blogs about his ubuntu work, but blogs about stuff he writing on Windows?
[23:25] <sabdfl> i.e. where the majority of his posts would be jarring
[23:25] <Mez> mdke, same here... I think that they break it up nicely... having just tech etc is annoying, i want to know more about what makes these people who they are. Not just what they're woring on...
[23:26] <LaserJock> popey: that's not exactly true
[23:26] <Burgundavia> sabdfl: I think stuff like that really depends on volume
[23:26] <mdke> sabdfl: I think that's acceptable, and personally would find it interesting. I don't think it jars at all. Planet is a blog aggregator, not a community news or discussion site
[23:26] <popey> LaserJock: a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver
[23:26] <Burgundavia> if they are posting every day about that, then a friendly email/comment asking them to slow them down would be nice
[23:26] <LaserJock> people are somewhat "forced" to read material on Planet
[23:26] <sabdfl> Burgundavia: i agree, and the volume is more acceptable if it's a small portion of a larger flow of aligned material
[23:26] <popey> LaserJock: gun to head?
[23:26] <mdke> when we start regulating topic on planet, it's a slippery slope, I fear
[23:26] <elmo> popey: I think that might be against the CoC
[23:26] <LaserJock> popey: no, but content *is* right there
[23:26] <sabdfl> mdke: i think blog aggregator is a term lost on most of the people who read planet :-)
[23:27] <sabdfl> i think most people just think it's a news site
[23:27] <popey> elmo: you'd love it tho :)
[23:27] <pwnguin> do we have any stats on rss versus page views?
[23:27] <Mez> sabdfl, and if it was floss related/ubutu related only, you'd have to delete half of Jono's blogs (which are normally a darn fine read!)
[23:27] <mdke> I prefer to see planet as a place where Ubuntu members share their blogs, and only intervene where content is inconsistent with the code of conduct
[23:27] <LaserJock> popey: if I'm scanning Planet and somebody has some grossly offensive picture for instance, I'm not sure you can claim that the reader isn't being forced to see that
[23:27] <mdke> rather than try and guide its subject matter
[23:27] <Burgundavia> does our planet support what planet gnome does, where you can use css to turn off spefici people?
[23:28] <popey> LaserJock: sure, but that's already covered by the planet guidelines
[23:28] <popey> Burgundavia: do you get to turn people on too?
[23:28] <popey> sorry
[23:28] <LaserJock> popey: well, only somewhat
[23:28] <Myrtti> LOL
[23:28] <elmo> page views appear to be ~3%
[23:28] <emmajane> Burgundavia: nicer to encourage good behaviour rather than to have to know fancy things to mod "bad" behaviour out...
[23:28] <Burgundavia> popey: really popey, I thought we were keeping that private
[23:28] <sabdfl> easy in CSS, popey ;-)
[23:28] <elmo> vs. RSS
[23:29] <elmo> (emphasis on the ~)
[23:29] <Myrtti> "whisper SQL to me, baby" *cough*
[23:29] <LaserJock> elmo: wow, that's quite a bit smaller than I would have thought
[23:29]  * Myrtti hides under her bed
[23:29] <sabdfl> SELECT leather FROM wardrobe ;-)
[23:29] <Flannel> Burgundavia: No, It doesn't appear that's possible currently.  No unique classes in the posts.
[23:29] <emmajane> ahem.
[23:29] <popey> hehe
[23:29] <sabdfl> we're drifting, here
[23:29] <mdke> alright, I'm going to have to retire shortly
[23:29] <Burgundavia> might that be possible to turn on?
[23:30] <Flannel> Burgundavia: It sounds like a good idea.
[23:30] <Flannel> And certainly would allow people to ignore certain posters
[23:30] <popey> someone needs to write a meta-planet which frontends the rss feed and allows you to tick/untick people
[23:30] <mdke> to be honest, it's so easy to skip over posts that don't interest you that it's not a massively important feature, I think
[23:30] <pwnguin> i kinda did
[23:30] <elmo> popey: people have for Debian/gnome
[23:31] <popey> ooo
[23:31] <elmo> but I don't think that helps the 'bad reflection' on Ubuntu aspect
[23:31] <Myrtti> I don't even read planet from planet.ubuntu.com
[23:31] <Flannel> pwnguin: It'll be easy enough (I think, I haven't seen the planet code) to just add a class to the posts, unique to each poster.
[23:31] <emmajane> Would it also be possible to put a link to the guidelines directly from planet.ubuntu.com?
[23:31] <Flannel> er, popey ^
[23:31] <elmo> anyway, what, if anything do we want to do about this specific incident
[23:31] <elmo> emmajane: yes, we're going to do that
[23:31] <mdke> emmajane: yes, that's part of the spec
[23:31] <Myrtti> I've grabbed the OPML to my rssowl
[23:32] <sabdfl> elmo: who can edit the Planet page?
[23:32] <pwnguin> elmo: move the conflict resolution to email I say. the affected parties need to at least know whats going on
[23:32] <sabdfl> we need to add the editorial policy there, which says we can remove content
[23:32] <mdke> elmo: let's raise it with \sh. It's difficult to discuss without reference to him
[23:33] <mdke> or rather, in his absence
[23:33] <sabdfl> i would personally like to see a guideline that says that posts should predominantly be about ubuntu
[23:33] <sabdfl> but i don't hear resounding support for that
[23:33] <emmajane> +1 for outlining what is desired content.
[23:33] <elmo> sabdfl: right now SAs, I'm working with mdke to expand that (with suitable oversight/review)
[23:33] <popey> so long is it is "predominantly" or "mostly" and not "entirely" I agree
[23:34] <Burgundavia> I would agree with that
[23:34] <LaserJock> me too
[23:34] <Flannel> I could support that in a guideline
[23:34] <mdke> that would be too limiting for me
[23:34] <Mez> mdke, myself also
[23:34] <sabdfl> CC, how do you feel about a "general emphasis on Ubuntu and FLOSS related content", with an explicit permission about life stuff to quell the regular "off topic" accusations
[23:34] <Myrtti> ubuntu? what about FLOSS in general?
[23:34] <popey> and as you say, _all_ posts (whether ubuntu centric or not) should comply with the planet guidelines
[23:34] <Daviey> I would hate to see people slated for not posting about Ubuntu.. if I can see that their content is otherwise interesting - and they are a known perosn - which by definition of membership they should be
[23:34] <elmo> sabdfl: do we have a regular off topic problem?
[23:35] <sabdfl> folks, i'm trying to narrow down to hear the views of the CC, we've had an open discussion already, now we need to get a decision
[23:35] <popey> can you add an extra clause "no posts about deal metal"?
[23:35] <popey> gah
[23:35] <popey> s/deal/death
[23:35] <sabdfl> elmo: i think we have consensus that *some* offtopic material is acceptable, even encouraged
[23:35] <Mez> popey, noel edmunds has a band?
[23:35] <Myrtti> popey: naughty
[23:35] <sabdfl> and often we have folks asking why a post was offtopic
[23:35] <mdke> -1 from me. It's inconsistent with my view of what a planet should be, and I see it as causing a slippery slope towards complaints of "off-topic" on particular blogs
[23:36] <elmo> we already have "Subscribed feeds ought to be at least occasionally relevant to Ubuntu", in PlanetUbuntu, FWIW
[23:36] <sabdfl> mdke: by my way of thinking, no single post would be offtopic
[23:36] <Mez> elmo, that sounds fine to em ;)
[23:36] <LaserJock> I kinda hate to say it, but with the exception of \sh have we even had other problems like this?
[23:36] <sabdfl> but a feed which contains a generally low ubuntu signal to other material, would raise questions
[23:36] <Mez> sabdfl, freedom of speech?
[23:36]  * nealmcb likes "FLOSS in general" - encouraging cross-fertilization 
[23:36] <Mez> sabdfl, is there actually a problem about off-topicness in general?
[23:36] <Burgundavia> Mez: ENOTDEMOCRACY
[23:36] <pwnguin> LaserJock: there was the time fabian leaked canonical secrets, but not really related
[23:37] <sabdfl> Mez: it's a big web, you don't need to write everywhere to have freedom
[23:37] <Mez> sabdfl, but if my blog is aggregated, It restricts what I can write on my blog...
[23:37] <mdke> Burgundavia: you can have freedom of speech in non-democracies :p
[23:37] <mdke> sabdfl: yeah, I understand, I just think that going down that route would cause more complaints about off topic than we get now, and the current ones would be addressed by the spec anyway.
[23:37] <elmo> Mez: that's not true, any decent blog has tags
[23:37] <popey> Mez: categorise it
[23:38] <Technoviking> Mez: only feed part of your blog,
[23:38] <mdke> sabdfl: but my main objection is that I don't think a planet should be restricted except by the CoC and general common sense
[23:38] <mdke> anyway, I'm happy to be overruled :)
[23:38] <Flannel> Technoviking: That's not feasible for all blog software apparently.
[23:38] <Burgundavia> mdke: yes, but the compliant would be about censoring
[23:38] <Mez> that would depend on my writing it if I was using my own blog software ;) (and screws over livejournal I believe!)
[23:38] <Burgundavia> and advogato
[23:39] <pwnguin> livejournal has tagging filters
[23:39] <pwnguin> i use it
[23:39] <Mez> pwnguin, ah, well, It didnt when I used to use it ;)
[23:40] <elmo> anyway, I'm +0 on sabdfl's proposed 'ubuntu, floss + life'.  I'm not sure it would solve any of the actual escalated problems, or that it wouldn't make off-topic discussions more frequent
[23:40] <elmo> but like mdke, happy to be overruled
[23:40] <sabdfl> mdke: can you give me an example where general common sense would suggest lifting an article?
[23:40]  * Mez can
[23:41] <ogra> LaserJock, and in \sh's case i wouldnt even say the blog posts are the actual prob but hs kind of overreacting to critics and then misbehaving way worse that the actual thing deserves ... i personally dont see a big prob in the first article
[23:41] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, an article which is personally offensive, deals with unacceptable subject matter or is unnecessarily provocative; or otherwise offends the CoC :)
[23:41] <ogra> but the second is definately bad
[23:41] <LaserJock> ogra: mhm
[23:42] <LaserJock> the problem is that common sense isn't universal sense :-)
[23:42] <ogra> heh, yeah
[23:42]  * sabdfl worries about scaling planet, as ubuntumembers grows, and as more people blog about more stuff
[23:42] <sabdfl> ogra: good point
[23:43]  * Myrtti points at nicu's post on fedora planet
[23:43] <popey> are there many larger planets out there? how do they do it?
[23:43] <mdke> sabdfl: I see that, but we can perhaps deal with a problem if it arises
[23:43] <Flannel> sabdfl: We'll deal with that when we get there.  Right now its still managable
[23:43] <pwnguin> Myrtti: but that's already disrespectful
[23:43] <LaserJock> sabdfl: it is getting more difficult, stuff scrolls of pretty fast
[23:43] <LaserJock> one distinguishing factor I've seen, in general
[23:43] <sabdfl> ok. does any other member of the CC feel that \sh's initial post was outside the boundaries of acceptability for planet?
[23:43] <popey> I'm pretty sure \sh's post would have disappeared and been forgotten if it hadn't been for fab bring it up in quite such a public way
[23:44] <LaserJock> is that Planet Ubuntu is a lot more non-developer
[23:44] <LaserJock> which may lead to more posts and perhaps more non-technical post
[23:44] <sabdfl> popey: but i suspect it did detract from the vibe many have
[23:44] <mdke> sabdfl: yes, a bit outside the boundaries for me
[23:44] <Technoviking> I feel it not it was out of bounds
[23:44] <popey> sabdfl: agreed, for a very short time
[23:44] <elmo> Technoviking: -eparse
[23:44] <Mez> developers.planet.ubuntu.com and members.planet.ubuntu.com?
[23:45] <Technoviking> ack it was out of bounds
[23:45] <mdke> LaserJock: I don't think Planet Gnome is less technical, or less frequently posted to
[23:45] <popey> mez.mars.planet.ubuntu.com
[23:45] <mdke> Mez: ugh
[23:45] <sabdfl> elmo?
[23:45] <emgent> hahha
[23:45] <emgent> :)
[23:45] <Mez> tech bit in one, personal in other... conglomerate in p.u.c :P
[23:45] <LaserJock> mdke: no? I do, but maybe it's just me
[23:45] <Technoviking> sorry about that
[23:45] <elmo> hmm, I don't like the posting
[23:45] <Mez> mdke, the subdomain acts as a a filter to p.u.c, rather than a seperate planet if you get my drift?
[23:45] <Myrtti> I'd settle for an asteroid
[23:45]  * elmo runs to read the CoC quickly
[23:45] <mdke> LaserJock: (that should have read "more technical, or less frequently")
[23:45] <ogra> i dont like it either but i dont think it was actually out of bounds ...
[23:46] <elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
[23:46] <ogra> it was a bad sense of humor
[23:46] <sabdfl> put it this way. i would love people to feel that all things ubuntu are well articulated, and respectfully done, even when they are satirical
[23:46] <sabdfl> this was not
[23:46] <Flannel> Mez: I'd rather just see the ability to filter clientside with CSS as per Burgundavia
[23:46] <mdke> sabdfl: *nod*
[23:46] <ogra> sabdfl, ++
[23:46] <sabdfl> i feel let down when i see this sort of thing, and i think it's quite ok for us to say so
[23:46] <sabdfl> i don't see how we could expect it to improve, if we said nothing
[23:47] <ogra> definately true
[23:47] <LaserJock> sabdfl: but what "teeth" does the CC have?
[23:47] <Burgundavia> we can remove somebody from planet
[23:47] <sabdfl> LaserJock: we have them, all the better to smile with
[23:47] <mdke> LaserJock: a full set!
[23:48] <ogra> Burgundavia, which would get people into cheering "censorship !!!"
[23:48] <Burgundavia> we could also talk about doing suspensions
[23:48] <LaserJock> well, but what I'm saying is, is this a "technical solutions to social issues" problem?
[23:48] <sabdfl> but this would not be so much about biting, as inspiring
[23:48] <popey> or "hurrah!" ogra
[23:48]  * ogra would hope we can do better than just flipping a switch
[23:48] <Burgundavia> essentially: removed for a certain amount of time until you have shown you can post and follow the CC
[23:48] <Burgundavia> CoC rather
[23:48] <sabdfl> elmo?
[23:48] <mdke> LaserJock: to be honest, I'd be disappointed if teeth were necessary, I suspect that talking to \sh will resolve the issue
[23:48] <LaserJock> does the CC actually have to take action, or can it just say that it's unhappy with posts
[23:48] <ogra> mdke, ++
[23:49] <LaserJock> mdke: me too
[23:49] <sabdfl> LaserJock: the latter, in this case, would i think be sufficient
[23:49] <Flannel> \sh thinks this is an overrreaction by magicfab, and seems to believe he is in line with the CoC, a simple mention that that's not true may suffice.
[23:49] <mdke> sanctions are very rarely imposed in this community, happily
[23:49] <LaserJock> agreed
[23:49] <pwnguin> if the CC were to remove or suspend sh, I'd hope it would be for his reply rather than the initial post. the CoC is nothing if it doesn't guide us on our worst days
[23:49] <sabdfl> Flannel: he also felt it necessary to be quite dishonest about what he was saying, in order to try to be inside the line, when challenged
[23:50] <sabdfl> he said he wasn't talking about masturbation, when clearly he was
[23:50] <Flannel> sabdfl: Thats true, and in some regards I think his response was a lot more telling than anything else.
[23:50] <ogra> Flannel, but he also has to learn that overreactions shouldnt be answered with even worse overreactions
[23:50] <sabdfl> so i think he knows he was out of line
[23:50] <elmo>  sabdfl: err, I'm +1 on what you're saying - or are you asking me something more specific? :)
[23:50] <sabdfl> elmo: just wondered if you found what you were looking for in the CoC ;-)
[23:50] <mdke> do you guys not have it on the wall above your computers?
[23:50] <elmo> 23:46 < elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
[23:50] <sabdfl> ah, you said above, i missed it
[23:50] <sabdfl> sorry
[23:50] <sabdfl> ok
[23:51] <elmo> mdke: yeah, but only at work
[23:51]  * mdke hurriedly takes his down
[23:51] <sabdfl> that's a consensus, as i see it
[23:51] <pwnguin> heh, maybe the canonical store can sell framed versions
[23:51] <sabdfl> separately, i think ogra has a very good point
[23:51] <mdke> yes
[23:51] <elmo> pwnguin: or signed ones.  we could get sabdfl a signing machine like POTUS has!
[23:51] <elmo> *ahem*
[23:51]  * LaserJock thinks everybody just needs a hug ;-)
[23:51] <LaserJock> where's dholbach?
[23:51] <ogra> \sh has a sad history of that kind of overreaction and he knows about it
[23:52] <ogra> so pointing him t that will surely move more than shutting him down (temporary or longterm)
[23:52] <popey> (again)
[23:52] <elmo> ogra: eh, so what do you suggest?
[23:52] <sabdfl> when critiqued, is almost the most important time to raise the quality of discourse
[23:53] <ogra> talk to him about the second post, he knows the first wasnt right, but he also knows he tends to overreact
[23:53] <sabdfl> LaserJock: nobody is trying to hurt or cause offense, and we find the whole community gets stronger when we figure out what we won't accept
[23:53] <mdke> I have to go now, thanks for the very productive meeting everyone
[23:53] <pwnguin> an alternative might be to offer some editorial advice prior to posting. kuro5hin had a neat collaborative editing feature
[23:53] <sabdfl> and we all think the folks concerned here are good members of the community
[23:54] <sabdfl> hmm...
[23:54] <sabdfl> we are out of time, i think
[23:54] <Burgundavia> another option would be supervision
[23:54] <Burgundavia> essentially, ask a poster to get somebody else to look over any post before it goes live
[23:54] <sabdfl> given that we have consensus on the first post, i'll write to \sh
[23:54] <sabdfl> privately, cc the CC
[23:55] <sabdfl> Burgundavia: "knowing that you don't intend to cause offense, it might be worth..."
[23:55] <sabdfl> yes, can do that
[23:55] <sabdfl> let's wrap it up now, unless there are any emergencies
[23:55] <sabdfl> we're through the agenda
[23:55] <sabdfl> any other business?
[23:55] <sabdfl> going... going...
[23:55] <Burgundavia> nope
[23:56] <Burgundavia> oh wait, there is no food in my house. Does that count?
[23:56] <sabdfl> :-)
[23:56]  * popey scps Burgundavia a donut
[23:56] <sabdfl> gone
[23:56] <sabdfl> did i mention how much i enjoy working with you all?
[23:56] <popey> heh
[23:56]  * ogra plays MIM between popey and Burgundavia and has a bite
[23:56] <sabdfl> thank you everyone
[23:57] <popey> hang on, mdke has a copy of the CoC printed out
[23:57] <sabdfl> sigh. ogra. QUOTES PAGE
[23:57] <ogra> :)
[23:57] <popey> heh
[23:57] <Technoviking> thanks all
[23:58] <sabdfl> night all
[23:59] <ogra> night