[01:45] ogra: I think having a consistent /dev/touchscreen is an excellent idea, but I think that it ought be achieved by udev rules, rather than a script using ln -s. [01:46] If you look at the Q1U config, it has a udev rule that matches the specific model: perhaps this could be expanded to support a wider variety of touchscreens. [01:46] Err. /dev/input/touchscreen [01:46] well, i discussed the idea with Keybuk and bryce ... and they convinced me to rather try to get it properly into hal [01:47] so the whole config can be handled there and is dynamic [01:47] my attempt was a bit shortsighted and only actually targets the current situation ... which will not be the intrpid situation [01:48] ogra: Hmm. That is better, and yes, doesn't work without the new xinput2 stuff. [01:48] it would be a good solution for hardy though with your point to use udev it would even be better [01:49] In the Q1U images, we do use udev, just with a very tight udev rule matching only one device. [01:49] but i will take a deep look into hal-input i think ... as soon as time permits [01:49] Yeah, I've been meaning to do that as well. It is the future. [01:49] we can use udev to trigger hal [01:50] Well, do we want /dev/input/touchscreen for legacy purposes? If not, we can just trigger hal when adding any input device, and let hal-input sort it out [01:50] right [01:50] dev wont matter in the hal case [01:50] v/dev i mean [01:50] The only case where one wouldn't want that is for MIDI, as the programming for MIDI is currently too different to handle generally. [01:51] depends, i guess even that can be made workable by hal [01:51] * persia was looking at indamixx press recently [01:52] Not for intrepid. For later, maybe. [02:04] btw, do you know the reason why Mouse0 in the config isnt using /dev/input/mice as it should be, but /dev/input/mouseX ? [02:04] using mice here makes all additionally attached pointing devices work as well ... (i.e. the trackball of my wreless kbd and my usb mouse) [02:05] No idea at all. That was frustrating to me, as it required adjustment to work on my hardware (or else only the touchpad worked, not the joystick or the touchscreen) [02:05] right [02:05] with /dev/input/mice all works equally fine [02:05] i wonder if we can get that as fix in [02:06] we'll likely need to re-roll an updated image for the speedup stuff i guess [02:10] Do you think /dev/input/mice is SRU-worthy? [02:10] not sure, i'd like to hear other opinions and hear from testers first [02:11] it might just work because of the module order i used for loading them [02:14] (which indeed would indicate a worse bug in udev/modprobe somewhere) [02:15] Why? /dev/input/eventx is populated in module loading order with increasing X. The same is true to a lesser degree for /dev/input/mouseX and /dev/input/jsX (why don't we support multiple keyboards like that). [02:16] Well, not module loading order exactly, but hardware plug event order, which is strongly influenced by module loading order [02:16] i guess because we dont have a /dev/kbd [02:17] hmm [02:17] we do [02:17] Well, it has been there in the past. Just more confusion because X has it's own keyboard drivers (which is frustrating when one has an interesting keyboard-like device) [02:17] and i assume thats exactly what hal-input will do [02:18] my leyboard is /dev/input/event1 here [02:18] *keyboard [02:18] Well, some of that. There's still differences with the console, as it doesn't tend to use hal-input. [02:18] it should then :) [02:18] Have you looked at the input-utils package? I find it very useful when looking at input stuff. [02:19] Should a VC really depend on a running HAL? That's an interesting direction. [02:19] no, i just dug around in hal-device-manager [02:19] err [02:19] gnome-device-manager [02:19] ... was renamed [02:19] Ah. Install it: `lsinput` is a much simpler interface :) [02:20] MInd you, input-utils seems to need more root access than one would expect, but ... [02:20] i think hal should as abstraction layer indeed handle all HW at some point [02:21] and afaik devicekit is trying to solve that [02:21] Mind you, `cat /proc/bus/input/devices can be similarly informative. [02:23] Yeah: having a central abstraction layer would be nice. With a bit of extension, it ought be able to handle 漢字 entry cleanly in the console as well. [02:23] well, thats what hal reads [02:23] not /proc but the equivalent in sysfs [02:24] and /proc is suposed to vanish since linux 2.6.0 was released [02:25] Is there any devices that actually run ubuntu mobile nicely, and are released? [02:25] and ubuntu mobile is linux, so i can use most of my stuff i run on my pc on the mobile device (Providing it's not too resource intensive obviously) [02:27] A samsung Q1 runs it over here, and yes, ubuntu mobile uses the standard ubuntu archive you can theoretically install everything from apache up to gnome [02:27] and is there any way to test ubuntu mobile without installing KVM, KVM seriously borked my computer last time i tried to use it. [02:27] nice :) [02:27] like, could i try it out in virtualbox? that'd be nice. [02:27] CShadowRun: Pretty much any device with an A100, A110, or Atom processor ought work fine. Best experience for 1024x600 screens, and many things are optimised for the Samsung Q1U. [02:28] i did try it in virtualbox, but you need to manually convert the image wiht qemu to a vbox image [02:28] There's been talk about virtualbox images, but I don't know of any published ones. [02:28] ogra: How does one do that? [02:28] and to get a proper screen size you need the vbox modules in the image [02:28] there is a qemu command to convert it [02:29] if someone could talk me through that it'd be nice [02:29] i'm really into the idea of ubuntu mobile :D [02:29] specially the python part, hehe [02:30] as i say, i tried to apt-get install KVM before, and my entire system froze while "setting up kvm", and then my package manager was completely broken, because every time i did the dpkg command to repair, it tried to install kvm again :x [02:30] after doing dpkg like 5 times it did finally go through, then i had to try another 2 times to remove the blasted thing because it broke virtualbox, lol [02:30] qemu-img convert .img .bin [02:31] cool [02:31] then what would i do with the output file? [02:31] vditool DD .vdi .bin [02:31] ok :) [02:31] vditool is shipped with vbox [02:32] its a two step thing and the resulting image is a good bunch bigger than the qemu one [02:32] due to the step through the raw image [02:33] hehe providing it's not more than like 800GB... [02:33] lol [02:33] heh, no [02:33] but my vbox image is 5G vs the 2G qemu uses [02:33] while file do i want? mid-8.04.1-kvm.tar.gz ? [02:34] hmm, no idea, i built my on image with the builder back then ... it was before release ... [02:34] lol [02:34] but i suspect the kvm one is right [02:34] kk :) [02:34] the only other options are a few mccaslin and a few menlow ones. [02:35] * ogra slaps forehead [02:35] CShadowRun: They are install images. [02:35] ok :) [02:35] i just see vditool has a SHRINK command [02:35] so i want the kvm one then [02:35] ogra haha [02:35] downloading that now, it'll be done in 15 minutes :p [02:35] well, diskspace is cheap :P [02:36] Well, not too cheap: there seems to still be demand for 2G devices. [02:36] heh [02:36] sadly [02:36] life would be easier without them ... [02:36] Indeed, given that 4G solid state is available in 130g devices these days... [02:36] at least my life :P [02:37] hehe, personally i probably would buy a 2G [02:37] and use a flash drive to install things on [02:37] because SSD is so much more expensive than flash [02:37] plus with flash you can carry a bunch with you :D [02:37] SSD usually is flash. [02:37] yea but they charge so much more for it compared to a USB flash stick [02:37] (because it's new, and cool.) [02:38] That will go away soon. It's also just sizing. [02:38] aye :) [02:38] yeah [02:39] Anyway, the issue is more with the base install. 4G gives enough space to not *require* extra flash devices for basic use. With 2G one needs to mangle the install images to try to get enough local space. [02:39] yeah :( [02:39] * persia has never had a 2G device, so maybe isn't very sympathetic [02:39] its a pain [02:40] but i have still some ideas to save more space i didnt work on yet :) [02:40] lol the Q1U looks nice [02:40] i found a B-Grade one for $686 [02:40] CShadowRun: It has the least useful keyboard I've ever seen on a device. It's also larger than you would expect. Other than that, it's pretty good. [02:41] i must admt i can imagine to get used to it if i wuldnt have a coice [02:41] *admit [02:42] But why would you want to? It would turn your hands into claws not even suitable for console gaming after prolonged use [02:42] lol i do admit it looks a bit ugly [02:42] its all about finger memory and getting your thumbs right [02:43] The new Kohjinsha Atom boxes are awfully nice. Smaller than the samsung, but in a convertible tablet form-factor (and still with ~7" 1024x600) [02:43] ogra: And not hitting four keys with your Western-size thumb? [02:43] ogra: You mean putting your thumbs in a pencil sharpener? [02:43] i mean i cant imagine messaging 200 words in 10 min with my mobile with one finger, but i know people who can [02:43] StevenK: It's not just Western thumbs: I say that even thumbs on this side of the world rarely fit. [02:43] persia, something like that :) [02:44] anything else thats "officially" (Or going to be officially) supported by ubuntu mobile? [02:44] apart from the Q1 [02:44] ogra: I've seen people typing faster than that on mobiles, but the keys are bigger. [02:44] i'm quite a fan of the XDA execs look, something like that would be awsome :p [02:44] right, they are [02:45] CShadowRun: Anything with a Intel A110, A100, or Atom processor ought work. With luck, things should work with VIA C7-M or AMD Geode. [02:45] i see [02:45] lol cool so it's happy in an EEEPC [02:45] EEE is so tempting. [02:46] Well, it's not happy yet. It should work, but nobody has yet reported that it does. On the other hand, nobody has explained why it doesn'T. [02:46] Perhaps it will do better on the Atom EeePCs [02:46] yea thats what i meant [02:47] which are out since a week or so [02:47] Sure, but we've not a test report yet :) [02:47] two guys in #ltsp got theirs on monday [02:48] huh? i found them available on google shopping already [02:48] the 901 atom ? [02:48] yes [02:48] they didnt ship until very recently [02:48] well they appear to be up, theres a bunch of them up :) [02:48] and acer seem to make some too [02:48] Yep. Now that they've shipped, they are shipping in volume. [02:48] you could order them since a month or so at amazon though [02:49] there re more to come [02:49] honestly i would wait a bit for more beautiful and cheaper devices [02:49] That's the unfortunate thing about devices: it's always better to wait another few months (although it is nice to have something to use) [02:49] * ogra is not an eee fan .... chepa keyboard and ugly case [02:49] *cheap [02:50] Also in the unfortunate form factor: too big for the pocket, too small for serious use. [02:50] the sharp D4 looks nice [02:50] if they at least were slim [02:50] thats the sorta thing i'd love to get my hands on :p [02:50] yea maybe [02:50] CShadowRun: That is a lovely device. The keyboard feels nice. Fits in the pocket. [02:50] sweet [02:51] thats the sorta thing i'd love to get my hands on [02:51] CShadowRun: Where are you? It is likely one can be shipped. [02:51] UK [02:52] heh, and runs vista by default [02:52] well yea, but that can be changed :D [02:52] there we go, download finished, i have a kvm file and a qcow2 file [02:53] Hmm. Neither trisoft nor dynamism is shipping the D4 yet. I don't know anyone else who ships to the UK. [02:53] aww. [02:54] Dynamism does have the kohjinsha SC though (although it's still a little big) [02:55] * ogra twiddles thumbs ... 5 min to go fo rmy upload [02:55] yea thats quite nice :) [02:56] hmm, thats odd [02:56] i have virtualbox installed, but i don't appear to have vditool [02:56] ubuntu tells me to install the open source edition :p [02:57] i have it in /usr/bin/vditool [02:57] with the packages from the archive [02:57] ogra: Which package provides /usr/bin/vditool for you? [02:57] nope, not there for me :( [02:57] ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -S /usr/bin/vditool [02:57] virtualbox-ose: /usr/bin/vditool [02:58] not even on my computer, did a search lol [02:58] i did a dpkg -L on my virtualbox, and it's not been installed. [02:58] must only be included in the OSE version :S [02:58] but you use the nonfree version [02:58] i never tried that [03:00] ah [03:00] and these files that ubuntu came in arn't img files [03:00] one is a kvm one is a qcow2 [03:01] qcow2 is the image file, and ought be able to be converted. [03:02] with qemu-img convert root.qcow2 raw.img [03:02] right? [03:02] I think so, but I've not done that, so I'm guessing. [03:03] now the only problem is vditool then :) [03:03] For that you probably need virtualbox-ose [03:03] i managed to find a copy of it on the web but it says i don't have libuuid.so.1 [03:03] * CShadowRun tries installing the dev package [03:05] i do have it though :/ [03:06] it's a symlink in /lib that points to libuuid.so.1.2 [03:06] * ogra updates http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/hardy/ and prepares to finally get some sleep [03:07] phew ... that was a long day today [03:07] hehe [03:12] * ogra waves .... [03:12] night all [03:13] night :( === CShadowRun is now known as cshadowrun === freet15__ is now known as freet15 === Moot2 is now known as MootBot === Moot2 is now known as MootBot === Moot2 is now known as MootBot === Moot2 is now known as MootBot [18:40] I installed the ubuntu mobile package on my laptop [18:40] but all it seems to do is like install a few new applications :( [19:04] cshadowrun, what did you expect to happen ? [19:05] th eubuntu-mobile package is a metapackage used to pull in the default set of applicaions into a mobile imae build [19:05] *image [19:05] (like all metapackages in ubuntu) [19:07] uh [19:07] i expected it to be like a diffrent desktop session or something [19:07] so i could try it out just like it was a phone [19:07] :( [19:07] thats what i wanna do [19:10] then you would need ot install the whole image [19:10] how do i do that? [19:10] but that wuld wipe your disk, the installer in hardy isnt very intelligent about such stuff [19:10] thats fine [19:10] i wanna test it on my laptop which has no data on it anyway [19:11] you can try the mccaslin image from the link in the channel topic [19:11] is it an iso? [19:11] dd that to a usb key, boo from it and let the installer do its work [19:11] oh [19:11] nope, n .img file [19:11] how big usb key do i need? [19:12] 1Gn shoudl suffice [19:12] i only have 512 :( [19:14] wonder if i could run ubuntu off this image file [19:14] s/ubuntu/virtualbox [19:17] http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ says the mid-8.04.1-mccaslin-install-usb.img is only 501 [19:17] so 512M might work [19:17] maybe [19:20] ubuntu says the total capacity is 495.2MB [19:20] :< [19:20] formatted as ext2/3 ? [19:21] nah, msdos [19:21] note that this usually reserves 5% for root [19:21] ah, k [19:21] maybe i can get this img file to load in virtualbox [19:22] you need to grab the kvm image for that and convert it to a vbox image [19:22] oh cool i already got that :p [19:23] only problem is vditool doesn't work on 64bit [19:23] but i guess i can use my laptop to convert it [19:23] right [19:23] or build a 32bit chroot [19:23] ? [19:24] debootstrap --arch i386 hardy ./chroot [19:24] that would build a chroot for 32bit in ./chroot [19:25] that sounds complicated, i'll just use my laptop :p [19:25] with: sudo chroot ./chroot you can enter that and execute 32bit apps inside [19:25] havn't been using linux for all that long. [19:25] nah it has like library issues [19:25] it says i have missing librarys (But i dont) [19:25] computer says no ;) [19:26] exactly :) [19:26] computer is silly ! [19:26] :) [19:27] but chroot is not that hard, you will create a user space for 32 bits [19:27] right [19:28] and within that console you could do anything for your image [19:28] just takes a bit of time and diskspace but is handy for caese like the above [19:28] so what do i have to do with the ubuntu.kvm and root.qcow2 to run them in vbox? [19:28] *cases [19:28] you need to convert the .kvm image to a raw one with qemu [19:29] then convert the raw image to a vbox one [19:29] qemu-img convert ubuntu.kvm raw.img right? [19:29] or qemu-img convert root.qcow2 raw.img [19:29] because theres 2 files in the kvm package o.o [19:31] i think its the qcow, not sure though [19:32] kk doing that [19:32] what next? [19:32] use vditool to make a vbox image from that [19:32] yea, now i meet with the vditool problem again :( [19:33] it's not included in the binary virtualbox, and if i download it from someplace it says i have a missing libuuid [19:33] which i don't, it's in /lib :x [19:34] ./vditool: error while loading shared libraries: libuuid.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. [19:37] its in the vitrualbox-ose package in the ubuntu archive [19:38] sorry i never tried any other vbox verson [19:38] i have the binary version already installed [19:38] i needed usb support [19:38] *version [19:40] the version of vditool on the website must be broken [19:40] theres no other way about it, my laptop has exactly the same files as my pc does, and it doesn't work on my pc. [19:50] * cshadowrun sighs and splits raw.img into a bunch of parts so i can transfer with usb drive [19:53] urgh this job is gonna make me want to stab my eyes out with a fork. [19:53] 14 parts. === cprov1 is now known as cprov-out === energY_ is now known as energY [22:20] hey, anyone know how ubuntu mobile is on a Nokia N810 ? [22:20] is everything supported? (GPS, Wifi, Bluetooth) [22:23] N810 has an ARM CPU [22:23] arm is not yet supported by ubuntu [22:23] (work i on the way though) [22:23] *is [22:24] aww. [22:30] i wish there was a list of them lol [22:30] list ? [22:31] like a list of ubuntu mobile compatible devices [22:31] h, yeah [22:31] we should assembel something like that, but that needs more community involvement [22:32] yea [22:32] i.e. people that are brave enough to trash their existing installs on their mobile devices and report back if it worked :) [22:32] currently, essentially anything with an x86 core can be supported. Images are specific to Intel chipsets at the moment. [22:32] right [22:32] but we dont now which devices specifically [22:32] exactly :) [22:32] beyond the handfull we develop on [22:33] it'd be nice to have a page with pictures and specs. [22:33] feel free to trigger something by making a call for testers on the mailing list ;) [22:34] Don't need to know. All you need to know is that Menlow images work with the Intel SCH500 chipset, and the Mccaslin images work with the 9xx series chipsets. [22:34] and setting up a wikipage [22:34] specific hardware support can be tweaked in from there. [22:34] right but isnt there out of the box [22:35] people with not much tech knowledge will want to know if it just works for them [22:35] exactly my thoughts :D [22:35] so an overview page would indeed make sense [22:35] and having some brave people helping testing and developing the device specific patches would help even more [22:36] UME in it's current form is difficult to make out of the box support for a lot of systems. It's too bad there isn't a better installation method. [22:37] that will get better with intrepid [22:37] and even if the ubiquity approach wouldnt work i have an installer thats working well and can easily be adjusted which i wrote for the classmate image i maintain since a year [22:38] so *something* will be there in intrepid [22:39] cool [22:39] (preferably ubiquity indeed, since its slick) [22:39] :) [22:41] does anyone here actually own a ubuntu MID? :) [22:44] I don't personally own one, but I work on them. [22:44] got any names of some devices that work nice currently so i can look them up? :) [22:45] well, most deveopment is done on the samung Q1 ultra atm [22:46] aww, they arn't that nice though [22:46] and they are pretty expensive [22:47] get 100000 people to buy one and they get cheaper :P [22:47] lmao [22:47] thats the rules of the market :) [22:48] YOu could also use the Asus Eee PC. It's almost the same hardware (sans touch screen). [22:48] oh well it does have a touch screen so thats a bonus. [22:49] yea, i want a handheld though [22:49] already got a pair of laptops :p [22:49] btw did you get your vbox setup running ? [22:49] Actually, it's about the same size, just in a clamshell with a fuller keyboard. [22:49] ogra still transfering the file from my laptop, LAN is really slow :( [22:49] 1:22 ETA :< [22:49] phew [22:50] yea but i'm after something i can "Walk down the street™" with [22:51] yeah, desktop PCs are not really handy for that especially the generator you need to pull behind you [22:51] yea, same with laptops [22:51] unless you wanna kinda balence the laptop on one hand and type with the other :x [22:51] or strap it to your arm. [22:51] lol [22:55] funny question, does the Q1U hard proper graphics drivers? [22:55] (So like, could you run compiz? xD) [22:56] technically yes [22:56] compiz would be awsome on a device like that lol, i could be such a show off. [22:56] haha nice [22:56] * ogra didnt try it though [22:56] you have a Q1U? [22:56] i have one here but dont own it [22:57] ah [22:57] lol why does everyone have one but not own it? [22:57] is canocial giving them out to devs or something? [22:57] to employees at least [22:58] nice [22:58] else it would be hard to develop MID ... [22:58] you need some HW ot work on [22:58] *to [22:58] true [22:58] Q1U is a bit big though :( [22:58] yeh [22:59] i wonder if an OQO would work [22:59] i like it though, but the keyboard is misdesigned [22:59] OQO is pocket sized :p [22:59] yea the keyboard looks wrong. [22:59] the OQO is an amazing device though, you seen the OQO's? [23:00] a while ago, yes [23:00] yea they are old but i havn't found anything as nice as an OQO yet [23:02] think ubuntu MID would work on an OQO? [23:02] come to think of it, think ubuntu full would work on an OQO? lol [23:03] normal ubuntu likely would... its a plain c7 [23:04] funky [23:07] OQO doesn't have a touch screen though, which makes me sad :(