[10:14] <qense> hello
[14:50] <newz2000> hello qense
[18:38] <vadi2> The wiki is dead... is that known?
[19:04] <jpds> He left, but the wiki was down for an upgrade, back up now.
[21:42] <vbabiy> newz2000: You around?
[21:42] <newz2000> vbabiy: hey
[21:42] <vbabiy> newz2000: how are you? Sorry I haven't been around much I been dead busy with work..
[21:42] <newz2000> I know how it goes... I'm good here.
[21:43] <newz2000> how are you? Hopefully recovered from the hustle and bustle
[21:43] <vbabiy> Yeah, I want to start with a new design on of the feature tour
[21:43] <newz2000> oh, cool
[21:44] <newz2000> I have composed and had gerry review an email about the project
[21:44] <vbabiy> which project?
[21:44] <newz2000> the feature tour
[21:44] <newz2000> no one else wanted to lead it
[21:44] <newz2000> do you?
[21:45] <newz2000> actually, let me step back...
[21:45] <newz2000> tell me what you were thinking... I'm eager to hear
[21:45] <vbabiy> about the feature tour
[21:45] <vbabiy> ?
[21:45] <newz2000> yes
[21:47] <vbabiy> Well for one thing I think that for this part we should break away from the stander ubuntu look and feel page.
[21:47] <vbabiy> So when someone comes to the page they will now something changed
[21:47]  * newz2000 is listening
[21:47] <vbabiy> its not the old ubuntu
[21:49] <vbabiy> I am bounce a few ideas around my head. I have to make prototypes and show everyone. see if any of them stick
[21:53] <newz2000> well, my concern is that users should still feel they're on an Ubuntu site. it doesn't have to look exactly but there should be some resemblence I think. I'm flexible though if its really necessary.
[21:54] <emunkki> regarding the conversation, have you already seen my latest kubuntu-website mockup?
[21:54] <vbabiy> emunkki: no can you post the url
[21:54] <emunkki> sure
[21:55] <emunkki> http://emonk.fi/work/kubuntu/kubuntu_startpage_mockup_5.png
[21:55] <newz2000> emunkki: looks sharp, have you met ryanakca yet?
[21:55] <emunkki> newz2000, yes, he's the one who asked me for graphics
[21:56] <newz2000> emunkki: I don't suppose I could convince you not to use the ubuntu title font could I?
[21:56]  * newz2000 isn't partial to that font
[21:56] <emunkki> sure, no problem
[21:56] <emunkki> or course we'll use it on the title
[21:56] <newz2000> A font that compliments it nicely, though non-free, is Arial Rounded MT Bold
[21:57] <emunkki> but not necessarily in other elements
[21:57] <newz2000> precisely
[21:57] <emunkki> i have some non-free fonts also which we might use
[21:57] <emunkki> though on an oss project i think using free fonts would be more appropriate
[21:57] <vbabiy> emunkki: that is a nice design
[21:57] <newz2000> its my personal opinion, but the title font has some funny chars like m and w that annoy me. :-/
[21:57] <emunkki> vbabiy, thanks
[21:57] <emunkki> newz2000, definately :)
[21:58] <emunkki> would you like to apadt that design to ubuntu also?
[21:58] <newz2000> emunkki: so is this a design just for the homepage or would it be used on interior pages?
[21:58] <emunkki> this specific is mainly for the offline start page
[21:58] <emunkki> or sth
[21:58] <newz2000> oooh
[21:58] <newz2000> sharp
[21:58] <emunkki> i'm not actually all clear on all this
[21:59] <newz2000> I'd consider using something like this for the 8.10 start page
[21:59] <newz2000> (for ubuntu)
[21:59] <emunkki> but that design might be adapted to the website also
[21:59] <emunkki> newz2000, do you want me to make one ubuntu-flavoured?
[21:59] <vbabiy> emunkki: are you doing this all in Inkscape?
[21:59] <emunkki> vbabiy, photoshop
[21:59] <newz2000> emunkki: if you want to, yes, but realize that the start page project is bogged down in legal discussions at the moment and there may be no fruit from your labour
[22:00] <newz2000> but I like it a lot
[22:00] <emunkki> newz2000, well you can ping me later again
[22:00] <emunkki> it won't take a lot of time to do it anyway
[22:00] <vbabiy> newz2000: do we have anther meeting planed yet?
[22:00] <newz2000> no
[22:00] <newz2000> the big topic needing discussed is the strt page which is stalled
[22:01] <vbabiy> newz2000: I guess I should go back and read the mailing list.
[22:01] <newz2000> no, sorry, its not been discussed there
[22:02] <newz2000> but the feature tour is still on, and I'm itching to see it move forward
[22:02] <newz2000> I have an email asking for someone to step up and take the leadership role for that work
[22:02] <vbabiy> newz2000: whats going on with the start page?
[22:03] <emunkki> newz2000, is there anybody working on it?
[22:03] <newz2000> regarding the start page, moz, google and canonical (not me) are discussing the legal/trademark implications
[22:03] <newz2000> so that will probably wait until the last min
[22:04] <vbabiy> o okay
[22:04] <newz2000> emunkki: do you mean start page or feature tour
[22:04] <emunkki> newz2000, either one
[22:04] <newz2000> start page - no, feature tour, not really but I'd like to see that change very soon
[22:04] <newz2000> vbabiy just pinged me about that actually
[22:05] <emunkki> ok
[22:05] <emunkki> vbabiy, if you need some help, you can ping me
[22:05] <newz2000> if you guys want to discuss it now we can
[22:05] <emunkki> how cooperative are the ubuntu/kubuntu teams?
[22:05] <emunkki> in terms of websites etc
[22:05] <vbabiy> emunkki: we only have one mockup on the wiki. It would be nice to get some more.
[22:06] <newz2000> emunkki: regarding cooperative, we've been getting more and more
[22:06] <newz2000> ryanakca and I have been communicating for several months trying to get the kubuntu site moved over to drupal
[22:06] <emunkki> >__<
[22:06] <vbabiy> newz2000: do we have any idea on when the tehem will finalized
[22:06] <emunkki> fyi, i hate drupal
[22:06] <newz2000> there are better, there are worse
[22:06] <newz2000> vbabiy: which theme?
[22:07] <newz2000> oh
[22:07] <newz2000> desktop theme
[22:07] <vbabiy> newz2000: yeah
[22:07] <newz2000> no, probably about 3 days after the artwork deadline. :)
[22:07] <emunkki> does that deadline concern websites?
[22:07] <vbabiy> end of the month
[22:08] <newz2000> end of sept I think isn't it vbabiy? (25th)
[22:08] <newz2000> emunkki: yes and no
[22:08] <emunkki> ok...
[22:08] <newz2000> the feature tour is some code + some content
[22:08] <vbabiy> newz2000: yeah
[22:08] <emunkki> anyway i was about to suggest that let's just coop with all the start pages etc
[22:08] <newz2000> content is highly dependent on the theme
[22:08] <vbabiy> I only look at the first dead line
[22:08] <newz2000> emunkki: I'm up for that
[22:08] <emunkki> if there's no epic war between kub/ub
[22:08] <emunkki> that sounds the most logical
[22:08] <newz2000> synergy is good
[22:09] <emunkki> what about xubuntu team?
[22:09] <emunkki> or the other ones
[22:09] <newz2000> I have very little communication with them
[22:09] <newz2000> I do have good communication with edubuntu
[22:09] <newz2000> edubuntu releases in sync with ubuntu/kubuntu so that's the critical one
[22:09] <emunkki> just invite them in
[22:09] <emunkki> i might want to take in xubuntu also, as i'm personally a kubuntu user
[22:10] <emunkki> GNAH
[22:10] <emunkki> i mean a xubuntu user
[22:10] <emunkki> of course
[22:10] <emunkki> duh
[22:10] <newz2000> :-)
[22:11]  * emunkki bangs his head against the wall
[22:11] <newz2000> vbabiy: looking at your mockup now
[22:11] <newz2000> I think I agree that breaking out of the ubuntu shell is a good idea
[22:11] <vbabiy> newz2000: I think you have seen that one
[22:11] <vbabiy> yea, I think its time for something new
[22:12] <emunkki> i'd suggest that we should build a "way" that all the *ubuntu distros could walk
[22:12] <newz2000> I was thinking it would be good to limit vertical scrolling on a 768px high screen
[22:12] <newz2000> (for the feature tour)
[22:12] <emunkki> and does not resemble any distribution too much
[22:12] <newz2000> emunkki: distros or distro websites?
[22:12] <emunkki> but is somehow in between
[22:12] <emunkki> distro websites :)
[22:13] <newz2000> I'm cool with that but we also have to leave room for the distinctive styling represented by each desktop. kubuntu's gloss, edubuntu's bright colors, ubuntu's earthy look
[22:13] <emunkki> because i feel strongly that *ubuntu is a big phenomenon
[22:13] <emunkki> not concerning only one distro
[22:14] <emunkki> but all of them
[22:14] <emunkki> so it feels a bit awkward when you see a lot of different websites
[22:14] <emunkki> of course styling would be like the distro itself
[22:14] <emunkki> but also such that you can link it to the other *ubuntu distro websites
[22:16] <newz2000> mind if we talk about the mockup vbaby made?
[22:16] <emunkki> could we have a meeting about all this?
[22:16] <emunkki> sure
[22:16] <newz2000> (lets wait and see if vbabiy is up for it)
[22:16] <emunkki> yeah
[22:16] <newz2000> emunkki: I'm up for a meeting but I'd like to have a plan for a clear goal... exactly what do we gain by doing it?
[22:17] <vbabiy> newz2000: I am
[22:17] <newz2000> cool
[22:17] <emunkki> newz2000, putting up coop
[22:17] <emunkki> and synergy
[22:17] <newz2000> so I'm looking at your colorful mockup at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidFeatureTour
[22:17]  * emunkki too
[22:17] <emunkki> i think it's good, but it's also quite "big"
[22:17] <newz2000> it looks good, bright and colorful screenshots
[22:17] <newz2000> bigness is one thing I wanted to mention
[22:17] <emunkki> and somehow it resembles me more of kubuntu than ubuntu (for what comes to the comment newz2000 said a while ago)
[22:18] <newz2000> the most important part is the screenshots, so I think it would be good to make that bigger
[22:18] <emunkki> (distinctive styling)
[22:18] <newz2000> which implies making the right nav less so
[22:18] <emunkki> fd
[22:18] <vbabiy> yeah the nav is way to big
[22:18] <emunkki> we might modify the display to have left/right buttons
[22:19] <newz2000> regarding the display, we did it last time, I think we need something new
[22:19] <emunkki> and by clicking them you would get prev/next screenshot
[22:19] <vbabiy> I think that should be 75% of the current size or less
[22:19] <emunkki> aha ok
[22:19] <newz2000> (imho)
[22:19] <emunkki> i think the reflect of the display is too tall
[22:19] <emunkki> (taking too much screen space)
[22:20] <vbabiy> I think we should drop the screen thing
[22:21] <emunkki> that might be one solution
[22:21] <emunkki> especially if we're using it on the start page also
[22:21] <newz2000> so here's a radical and possibly unachievable idea
[22:22] <newz2000> if we targeted 800 - 850px width (including margin)
[22:22] <newz2000> get a nice big screenshot and some way to learn about the ss and navigate to more screens
[22:22] <newz2000> and not need to scroll on a 768px high screen
[22:23] <newz2000> (browser window maximized at 1024x768)
[22:23] <emunkki> ...or just make it scalable
[22:23] <newz2000> hmm... interesting thought
[22:23] <emunkki> can be easily done with css
[22:23] <newz2000> vbabiy: thoughts?
[22:23] <emunkki> because the complete bg doesn't need to show up
[22:24] <emunkki> just choose one where it doesn't matter
[22:24] <vbabiy> newz2000: but we would have to use full screen shot for that
[22:24] <newz2000> what do you mean by full screenshot?
[22:24] <vbabiy> full screen
[22:24] <emunkki> why not overlay all the other elements?
[22:24] <emunkki> like icons on the desktop
[22:24] <emunkki> can be easily overlaid
[22:25] <emunkki> and made clickable
[22:25] <newz2000> I'm not opposed but caution needed not to get too clever
[22:25] <vbabiy> emunkki: I like were you ar going
[22:25] <emunkki> and so you could learn about *ubuntu by seeing ubuntu "work"
[22:25] <vbabiy> emunkki: that is lot of work to get done in the time we have :)
[22:25] <newz2000> ﻿﻿﻿something a lot of people do wrong is that think screenshots have to be this square or rectangle of the screen exactly as they see it on the computer
[22:26] <newz2000> you don't have to do that
[22:26] <newz2000> instead the screenshot should show just what you want people to see without distracting them with other parts
[22:26] <vbabiy> newz2000: I agree with you here I think we should go to more application screen shot then full background screen shots
[22:26] <newz2000> right
[22:26] <newz2000> one full desktop screenshot max
[22:27] <vbabiy> Hey guys sorry I got to run, I am so sorry I forgot I have to be in a meeting
[22:27] <vbabiy> :)
[22:27] <newz2000> no prob
[22:27] <vbabiy> sorry
[22:28] <newz2000> ping me when you have some time
[22:28] <emunkki> anyway if we're going to detailed shots, then i think my idea wouldn't work as i thought it
[22:29] <newz2000> check this out, but make sure the background image loads before you do anything...
[22:29] <newz2000> http://digitarald.de/playground/fly-over-background/
[22:30] <emunkki> ok, that's possible
[22:31] <emunkki> does it work in IE?
[22:31] <newz2000> yes
[22:31] <emunkki> ok
[22:31] <emunkki> might just work
[22:31] <emunkki> though...
[22:31] <emunkki> i just wonder
[22:31] <emunkki> if we're going to show completely different features
[22:32] <newz2000> just inspiration, we don't need that and probably shouldn't use it just like that
[22:32] <emunkki> so how we're going to fit all of them in a same screenshot
[22:32] <newz2000> I tried... its not possible without a gigantic image
[22:32] <newz2000> but imagine this...
[22:32] <newz2000> a filmstrip/powerpoint combo
[22:32] <emunkki> i think that would work if we had one image per section
[22:32] <newz2000> only goes in two dimensions
[22:32] <newz2000> (left/right for example)
[22:32] <emunkki> yes
[22:33] <newz2000> directions, not dimensions
[22:33] <emunkki> yes
[22:34] <newz2000> could use tiling like with google maps to get more data in there without having to load one incredibly slow image
[22:34] <emunkki> yes, possibly
[22:35] <emunkki> but still i wonder how would that work
[22:35] <emunkki> even with a gigantic shot loaded in parts
[22:35] <newz2000> it does not have to look like one huge image...
[22:35] <newz2000> especially if we're showing closeups of the parts
[22:35] <emunkki> wouldn't it look a bit odd if you're just having an another screen and another screen...
[22:35] <newz2000> imagine a power point presentation...
[22:35] <emunkki> yes...
[22:36] <newz2000> let me see if I can mock it up real quick
[22:36] <emunkki> imho still, if we use for example that script, id look stupid when the photo is scrolling
[22:36] <newz2000> that's just inpsiration
[22:36] <emunkki> *it's
[22:36] <emunkki> *it'd
[22:36] <emunkki> gosh
[22:36] <newz2000> hey, half the people I talk to have english as second language, so its no sweat
[22:37] <emunkki> sure, but that was not lack of english skills but a typo :P
[22:40] <newz2000> I can't mock it up easily
[22:41] <emunkki> hehe
[22:41] <newz2000> but thinking of a filmstrip...
[22:41] <newz2000> there's that black line between the pieces
[22:41] <emunkki> yes
[22:44] <newz2000> I'd like to see something more thanjust a simple fade personally, something that makes people say wow
[22:44] <newz2000> however caution needed not to go overboard
[22:44] <emunkki> like a moving one?
[22:44] <emunkki> but only in left/right directions?
[22:44] <newz2000> yes
[22:44] <emunkki> ok
[22:44] <emunkki> i can make a mockup if you point me to a few (good) screenshots
[22:45] <newz2000> you can grab some off of a past tour...
[22:45]  * newz2000 grabs links
[22:45] <newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/screenshots-710
[22:46] <emunkki> ok thanks
[23:10] <emunkki> newz2000, http://emonk.fi/work/ubuntu/feature_tour_filmstrip_mockup.png
[23:10] <newz2000> ooh, that looks good
[23:10] <newz2000> better than I was imagining
[23:10] <emunkki> ha ;)
[23:11] <emunkki> we might also make the shots a bit opaque
[23:11] <emunkki> and the strip too
[23:11] <emunkki> as they are in real life, too
[23:11] <newz2000> they're not opaque now?
[23:11] <emunkki> no
[23:11] <emunkki> only overlaid
[23:12] <newz2000> so lets take it to the next step...
[23:13] <emunkki> just a moment
[23:13] <newz2000> ok
[23:13] <emunkki> hmm
[23:13] <emunkki> is there a copy of the bg
[23:14] <emunkki> found!
[23:18] <emunkki> file:///home/knome/Stuff/feature_tour_filmstrip_mockup_2.png
[23:19] <emunkki> errr
[23:19] <emunkki> newz2000, http://emonk.fi/work/ubuntu/feature_tour_filmstrip_mockup_2.png
[23:19] <emunkki> i don't know what happened as i really didn't paste the file url
[23:19] <newz2000> oh, I see
[23:19] <emunkki> but the http url in a wrong chan :D
[23:20] <newz2000> that is elegant
[23:20] <newz2000> so here's my thought...
[23:21] <newz2000> ﻿﻿﻿﻿the fimstrip does not need to be so prominent... keeping the top and bottom about the same height (looks like 45px) but making the images much higher (about 450px high, 600px wide)
[23:21] <newz2000> so the strip will be very wide
[23:21] <newz2000> and you really only see one image at a time
[23:21] <newz2000> that is where the scrolling comes in
[23:21] <emunkki> ok
[23:21] <emunkki> want a screenshot?
[23:21] <emunkki> i mean, mockup;)
[23:21] <newz2000> no, that's ok
[23:21] <newz2000> if you can picture it in your mind
[23:22] <newz2000> the "next" arrow causes the strip to slide to the left so that the next screenshot is in view
[23:22] <emunkki> sure
[23:22] <newz2000> so like that fly by, the screenshots scroll smoothly from next to next
[23:22] <emunkki> but maybe the next and prev shots will be shown at least partly?
[23:22] <newz2000> yeah
[23:23] <emunkki> THAT'd be cool+elegant
[23:23] <newz2000> that actually leads to another intersting idea that could be cool if done
[23:23] <emunkki> tell me?
[23:23] <newz2000> imagine a title for each screenshot shown overlaid on the screenshot
[23:23] <newz2000> instead of sliding out at the same speed as the screenshot
[23:23] <newz2000> it could slide out at a different speed, giving a sort of parallax scrolling effect
[23:24] <emunkki> hmm..
[23:24] <newz2000> so to the right you'd see a little bit of the next screenshot and possibly its title
[23:24] <newz2000> I may be picturing something impossible
[23:24] <newz2000> I do that often
[23:25] <newz2000> My artist friends say their challenge is coming up with good ideas... I tell them my challenge is not coming up with the ideas but figuring out how to actually do them. :-)
[23:25] <emunkki> hehe
[23:27] <newz2000> so with 6 screenshots in a strip the image will be big...
[23:27] <newz2000> and therefore tiling may be necessary
[23:27] <newz2000> does this idea sound promising or does it sound like it'd be hard to make it attractive enough?
[23:27] <emunkki> i just wonder about the picture
[23:28] <emunkki> would the bg have to be attached?
[23:28] <emunkki> so it wouldn't move as the images move?
[23:28] <newz2000> I don't think it would be good to attach the background to the image
[23:28] <newz2000> as a matter of fact, the filmstrip could be a bg image too using css
[23:29] <newz2000> and really there doesn't need to be a bg or a filmstrip
[23:29] <newz2000> :-)
[23:29] <emunkki> lol
[23:31] <newz2000> I was actually being figurative originally when referring to the filmstrip so that you could visualize how images could be lined up side by side without feeling like they needed to connect
[23:31] <newz2000> but the filmstrip looks good
[23:32] <newz2000> the images could have a little opacity applied to them using css so that when the scrolled over the background you could see through them
[23:32] <emunkki> yes
[23:33] <newz2000> so taking the film idea further...
[23:33] <newz2000> imagine the top and bottom of the strip being separate from the images and the dividers
[23:34] <newz2000> and even as the picture slides in from the left the top and bottom keep moving to give you the sense of watching an old film movie (like at the beginning when the leaders start)
[23:34] <emunkki> hmm
[23:34] <newz2000> maybe a few quick flashes of a scratch would zip across
[23:35] <emunkki> yeah maybe :)
[23:35] <newz2000> eh
[23:35] <emunkki> but the scratches should be over the imgs ;))
[23:35] <newz2000> right
[23:35] <emunkki> otherwise they wouldn't look so good
[23:36] <newz2000> si, I don't have strong feelings about this, I'm just pushing for something really visually exciting to look at
[23:36] <newz2000> si = so
[23:37] <emunkki> that would be exciting, yes
[23:37] <emunkki> but who would code it?
[23:37] <emunkki> starts to sound we'd be better of to do it with flash
[23:37] <newz2000> there are two people on the list who know mootools who offered to help
[23:37] <newz2000> (mootools is the effects library used on that flyby)
[23:38] <emunkki> yeah
[23:38] <emunkki> also...
[23:38] <emunkki> (bringing the idea further)
[23:38] <emunkki> (and easying it)
[23:38] <emunkki> we might just make an "intro"
[23:38] <emunkki> with the old filmstrip and scratches
[23:38] <emunkki> with OLD screenshots
[23:38] <newz2000> oh, clever
[23:39] <emunkki> and then BANG out the new, with perfect, no-scracth filmstrip
[23:39] <newz2000> it would have to be fast, zip by
[23:39] <emunkki> of course the old screenshots would have to be grayish
[23:39] <emunkki> and the new ones shiny
[23:39] <newz2000> oh yeah
[23:39] <emunkki> yes, just a zip by and the "bang" could be that the filmstrip went through EVEN faster
[23:39] <emunkki> and just changing to the new shots
[23:40] <emunkki> that'd also describe the timeline of development
[23:41] <newz2000> so mootools can do this, we'd have to test on slower machines and slower networks to ensure it works ok
[23:45] <emunkki> yes
[23:45] <newz2000> emunkki: what do you think, does this sound like something you'd want to help out with and something that would produce an exciting result?
[23:46] <emunkki> i can help out, but i can't a lot of js
[23:46] <emunkki> and definately is worth at least trying out
[23:46] <newz2000> don't sweat the js
[23:46] <emunkki> we can just put up a quick prototype, can't we?
[23:46] <newz2000> yeah
[23:47] <newz2000> ﻿ok, I'll talk to vbabiy, he wants to help out really bad I think. I'll also see if I can recruit some js help.
[23:47] <newz2000> I'll bet this is big enough that we can get several people contributing meaninfully
[23:47] <newz2000> I think I better call it quits for a bit and get some dinner
[23:48] <emunkki> i'm soon ready for ZZZ ;)
[23:48] <newz2000> ok, nice meeting you emunkki. I'll catch you later.
[23:49] <emunkki> you too
[23:49] <emunkki> let's talk about the coop of the websites later also