/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/08/08/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Americas Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
mrooneyWell hello, then.00:51
nelleryso I'm guessing ubottu is correct today?00:52
Joeb454lol well I thought it was tomorrow...00:53
pedro_yeah the 00:00 UTC tends to confuse people00:53
nelleryhttp://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/161400:54
Joeb454well given I'm from the UK, it's even more confusing00:54
effie_jayx5 minutes00:55
nellerygood luck to all applicants!00:58
bodhi_zazen+100:58
effie_jayxvorian,  ping00:58
Joeb454ty00:59
Old_Soldierthanks nick :)00:59
vorianahoy!00:59
effie_jayxvorian,  ready for meeting time00:59
pedro_ahoj !00:59
gQuigsty01:00
mrooneynellery: thanks :)01:00
jacobhallo all01:00
effie_jayxhey all01:00
mrooneyhello01:00
* emmajane waves01:00
gQuigshi01:00
Joeb454o/01:00
tedghello01:01
pedro_Welcome to the Americas Board meeting everybody!01:01
vorianit may be a min or two while we round up a couple more people :)01:01
* nellery says hi01:01
pedro_in the meantime, the list of applicants can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas01:01
* Joeb454 says hi to all01:01
pedro_so yeah let's wait a bit01:01
pedro_is Caesar around?01:02
vorianhi _MMA_01:03
_MMA_yo01:03
vorianok, while we wait, applicants please prep an intro, so we can speed things up a bit :)01:04
_MMA_So who's chairing this thing?01:04
vorianyou!01:04
pedro_exactly01:04
pedro_;-)01:04
_MMA_nope.01:04
pleia2hello01:05
vorianheya pleia2 :)01:05
voriani'll do it then01:05
vorianshall we start?01:06
effie_jayxvorian,  yep01:06
effie_jayxlet's get this one going01:06
voriangreat!01:06
vorianpaultag: looks like you're up (unless Caesar goes by a new nick now)01:07
paultagmkay01:07
paultagHey all, I am PaulTag ( Paul Tagliamotne ), and I am a Linux user since 2003, have dabbled in Linux Programming since 2004.01:07
paultagI have been employed as a Software Engineer, working with Linux since 2007. I have switched to Ubuntu circa 7.10, and have been in the Beginners Team since September. I would love to become MOTU, and feel like Ubuntu is the Distro for me, and I would love to do anything I can.01:07
paultagmy wiki is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Paultag#preview01:07
paultag( heh, minus #preview )01:07
paultagalso, Tagliamonte, sorry, I am typing too fast :)01:08
vorian:)01:08
vorianpaultag: tell me a bit about what you are doing on the MOTU track01:09
paultagvorian: I have been working with application design, and working on actually writing software for Linux, but as of yet, I do not have the resouces to take it further01:10
paultagvorian: I can package as well as code in several languages, and I am a CS major currently in college01:10
voriangreat :)01:11
voriani noticed you are a DD01:11
paultagvorian: I am not01:11
paultagvorian: this was for our internal OS01:11
paultagvorian: it was based off of Debian01:11
vorianmight want to change that line on your wiki page then :)01:11
pleia2paultag: I see your general foss work is very strong (bravo!), can you explain more about what you do specifically for ubuntu, I see your testimonials are primarily from your work with the beginners forum01:12
pwnguinvorian: are you looking at the right wiki?01:12
effie_jayxpaultag, to add to pleia2's Q, please do elaborate in the projects (Sabre and Qube)01:12
paultagpleia2: indeed -- I really love the Distro that is Ubuntu, and I really would love to further the Distro, as well as contribute upstream01:13
vorianpwnguin: ah, no01:13
paultagSabre and Qube:01:13
paultagSabre was a plugin that I decided to write for amaroK01:13
paultagit watches for a Bluetooth enabled device, then the computer reacts ( i.e. Music Stops, Marked away on IRC, as well as custom commands ) and is supported across all DEs01:14
Joeb454:)01:14
paultagJoeb454: was active on Sabre as well :)01:14
pedro_paultag: may you tell us a bit about your work with the Ubuntu Beginners team and what are your future plans for it?01:14
paultagpedro_: I have been active in the team, and plan to continue my work as long as I can, the Team leader bodhi_zazen is here, as well as some of the team mates01:15
paultagas well01:15
effie_jayxpaultag,  apart from the work in the forums have you had any contact with other ubunteros in your are... (LoCo work?)01:15
paultageffie_jayx: yes, but I am at college -- I plan to get active after I move back to MA01:16
paultagRE: Beginners Team:01:16
bodhi_zazenpaultag, is quite active and respected in the BT, he has assisted with education, of us all in fact, particularly with coding and packaging01:16
effie_jayxpaultag,  great01:16
pleia2paultag: link to your forum user page?01:16
paultagI am heading the Education group, to help members, if they need it within the group01:16
paultagpleia2: its not very active, hold on01:16
paultaghttp://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=50061301:16
pleia2paultag: 64 posts?01:17
paultagpleia2: yes, most of my work is helping the team behind the scene01:17
SEJeffSorry am I late? I thought the meeting was tomorrow for ubuntu membership01:17
paultagpleia2: i.e. issues that are not a quick hit this button01:18
pwnguinSEJeff: it's tomorrow in UTC =/01:18
pleia2paultag: gotcha, can you explain some of the work you've been doing behind the scenes?01:18
SEJeffpwnguin, Ok just making sure01:18
pwnguinmenaing, right now01:18
SEJeffGotcha01:19
paultagpleia2: sure, the Education group that I am heading allows our team mates to get and further their education across almost all the OS, we have a few mentors that help with anyone who requests it01:19
paultagpleia2: as well, we are working on a new structure for the team that I am working on01:19
paultagpleia2: organization, that is01:19
pleia2paultag: any kind of wiki/documentation you can point us to of this project in progress?01:20
paultagpleia2: sure, hold on a second01:20
paultagpleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/Structure01:20
paultagpleia2: I have worked closely with Rocket2DMn on this01:20
Rocket2DMno/ hi01:20
effie_jayxpaultag,  I feel your FOSS work is great01:21
voriananyone here to cheer for paultag?01:21
bodhi_zazen+101:21
Rocket2DMnWOOT WOOT paultag !01:21
* Old_Soldier cheers for paul01:21
bodhi_zazeneven if he is a geek, LOL01:21
paultaghahah, thanks bodhi_zazen :)01:21
* Joeb454 cheers01:22
Joeb454I did on the wiki though01:22
effie_jayxpaultag,  I do believe the beginner's team is a very important Ubuntu work...01:22
paultageffie_jayx: as do I :)01:22
vorianI'm happy to give my +101:22
effie_jayx+101:22
pleia2+101:23
vorian(and encourage some /join #kubuntu-devel action)01:23
pedro_a +1 from me also01:23
_MMA_+101:23
paultagvorian: noted01:23
voriangreat :)01:23
vorianwelcome aboard01:23
paultag:) Thank You all!01:23
bodhi_zazenWooT01:23
pleia2congrats paultag :)01:23
nellerycongrats paultag!!!01:23
Rocket2DMncongrats paultag !01:23
jacobcongrats paultag!01:23
Old_SoldierWoot! Gratz paultag01:23
pedro_congratulations paultag, welcome ;-)01:23
Joeb454congrats paultag01:23
SEJeffNice work paultag !01:23
emmajanecongrats paultag01:24
paultagty all!01:24
vorianSEJeff: you're up!01:24
nekohayo+101:24
SEJeffOk well my name is Jeff01:24
effie_jayxpaultag,  congratulations and may this also be a commitment to more work with that very importan team..01:24
SEJeffI'm a Systems Administrator by trade, geek by choice01:24
ds305way to go paultabg01:24
SEJeffUbuntu fits my philosophy of making Linux appeal to the masses01:25
SEJeffNot everyone in the world can afford to Pay for windows or OS X. They should have something just as good or better01:25
SEJeffThat is why I contribute to Ubuntu01:25
SEJeffhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffSchroeder/Contributions01:25
SEJeffMost of my contributions are more towards what I do as a job01:25
* Maddeth is here to cheer but was afk when asked01:25
SEJeffLike the recent patches for getting ovirt (http://ovirt.org) to work on Ubuntu or the really exciting new filesystem btrfs01:26
SEJeffIt had issues with apparmor that have now been fixed01:26
SEJeffAnd I've worked on security in Ubuntu a bit with kees, trulux01:26
SEJeffANd I have a company meeting :-/01:26
SEJeffHave an emergency and have to run01:26
SEJeffsorry01:26
vorianSEJeff: ok, we may be here for a while01:27
pedro_no worries01:27
voriangood luck01:27
pedro_take your time01:27
SEJeffmaybe 20 minutes?01:27
SEJeffbrb01:27
pleia2sure01:27
nekohayoSEJeff has my vote, he's an awesome sysadmin and teacher :)01:27
pleia2mine too01:27
pleia2hehe01:27
pleia2mrooney?01:27
vorianwe'll postpone him for now ...01:27
mrooneyOkay, hello everyone!01:27
mrooneyI'm Michael Rooney (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeRooney). I have been a bugsquad member for about a year, and a bugcontrol member for 6 months or so (https://launchpad.net/~michael).01:27
mrooneyI triage incoming bugs in Ubuntu every day, as well attempt to push progress forward in areas I find important (typically from a QA/Usability standpoint).01:28
mrooneyI would like to improve the "out of the box" experience of Ubuntu for beginners and advanced users alike, and plan to get into packaging/development soon!01:28
mrooneySo that I can extend my triaging work into directly fixing issues :)01:29
pleia2excellent work, mrooney01:29
pedro_yay!01:29
mrooneyI also wrote and maintain EeeBotu, the bug announcing bot in #ubuntu-bugs-announce, which has been going steady for over 2 months.01:29
vorianyes, much love01:29
* pedro_ hugs mrooney for that01:29
pleia2(also, RIT - w00t!_01:29
pwnguinis the source and config available for that bot?01:29
nelleryI support mrooney 100% for membership... I often run into him while triaging, and he deserves membership very much!01:30
mrooneypwnguin: I have yet to license it, but I plan to make an EeeBotu wiki page01:30
mrooneywhich would have the source, status, and other useful information01:30
pleia2looking forward to that :)01:30
vorianwow, your work speaks for itself. awesome work01:31
mrooneythanks!01:31
pedro_i don't need to ask anything, seriously01:31
vorianI'm more than happy to give my +101:31
pwnguinmrooney: i almost wonder if perhaps a bzr branch would help keep bot infrastructure in the hands of the community rather than individuals. but thats not an issue for membership, clearly ;)01:31
effie_jayxI don't either01:31
effie_jayx+101:31
pleia2me too +101:31
pedro_a big +1 from me !01:31
mrooneypwnguin: I considered a launchpad project but it seems overkill, though it would be nice to allow others to commit, it is probably a wise idea01:32
mrooneyNo questions, anyone? Haha01:33
effie_jayxI am happy with your work :D01:33
effie_jayxmr_pouit,  it is unanimous :D01:33
nellerycongrats mrooney!!01:33
effie_jayxmrooney,  welcome aboard01:33
pleia2congrats mrooney :)01:33
mrooneythanks so much everyone!01:33
vorianwelcome aboard mrooney :)01:33
bodhi_zazencongrats mr_pouit01:33
pedro_yeah congrats mrooney keep up the awesome work ;-)01:33
* Old_Soldier cheers for mrooney 01:33
bodhi_zazenoops, lol01:33
emmajanecongrats mrooney01:33
_MMA_+101:33
effie_jayxmrooney,  keep up the great work01:33
bodhi_zazencongrats mrooney01:33
_MMA_Sorry01:33
pleia2Old_Soldier: you're up!01:34
vorianoh noes, it's Old_Soldier!01:34
_MMA_(getting kids ready for bed)01:34
* Old_Soldier grins01:34
* bodhi_zazen hides01:34
Old_SoldierGreetings everyone, my real name is Charles Davis. I'm 42 years old and I live in Oklahoma.01:34
Old_Soldier I am a member of the Ubuntu Forums Staff and part of the Beginner Team. My major focus as a staff member is to give friendly helpful support while maintaining the peace on the forums. I'm also active in the Ubuntu Documentation Students team and The Ubuntu Wiki Team on LP.01:34
Old_SoldierMy future goals are to become a Documentation committer and eventually become a MOTU contributer.01:34
Old_Soldierwiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Old_soldier  lp:https://launchpad.net/~oldsoldier-gmail forum profile:http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=48799101:34
jacobbug cheers for Old_Soldier. he's obviously been a major help to the Beginners team, and definitely a welcome addition to the forum staff. :)01:35
* vor1 gives Old_Soldier 800% support01:35
jacobs/bug/big/. >.<01:35
* paultag cheers for Old_Soldier01:35
paultagone of the few on the team everyone respects01:36
* nellery cheers for Old_Soldier for his work towards the Doc Team!01:36
effie_jayxOld_Soldier,  you have quite a fan base...01:36
bodhi_zazenOld_Soldier is wise and respected by the entire team01:36
effie_jayxOld_Soldier,  what has taken you so long to get membership?01:36
bodhi_zazenHe brings maturity and wisdom, he has my full support01:36
Joeb454I give my +1 for Old_Soldier, he's helpful with both Ubuntu & otherwise01:36
Rocket2DMnA big +1 for Old_Soldier 's expansion into other areas of Ubuntu01:36
pleia2Old_Soldier: thank you for providing such an extensive wiki page, this is fantastic :)01:36
vorianOld_Soldier: been very busy with bugs i see01:36
effie_jayxok01:36
Old_Soldiereffie_jayx: I felt i wasn't prepared but bodhi_zazen convinced us to apply01:36
effie_jayxOld_Soldier,  why not prepared? what work do you think is needed to be a member?01:37
effie_jayxand what have you done for the Ubuntu project as a whole?01:37
Old_Soldiereffie_jayx: I felt that I wanted to participate more with the doc team before I applied.01:38
Old_SoldierI have contributed some patches in the documents and have been working with other BT members on the Wiki01:38
Old_SoldierI've also started an experimental project to put Ubuntu forums tutorial in yelp format for offline use01:39
effie_jayxOld_Soldier,  right...01:39
effie_jayxOld_Soldier,  would you consider your work with other people in hte ubuntu prject not enough then ;) ?01:39
pedro_Old_Soldier: that's nice, do you have some code around for doing that?01:39
vorianbtw, the BT documentation is the best (unexpected) side effect of the BT01:39
voriani am really happy to see how much documentation comes from the BT01:40
bodhi_zazenthanks vorian01:40
Old_Soldierpedro_: i have a bzr branch for the docbooks01:40
Old_Soldierit's similar to the ubuntu-doc branch I also have the binaries and source available in PPA01:40
pedro_Old_Soldier: cool! do you have it hosted at lp or just in your disk?01:41
pedro_niiice, what's the name?01:41
* pedro_ excited01:41
Old_Soldierboucft. a moment and i'll linky you01:41
vorianI'm happy to give my +101:41
pleia2+1 from me too01:41
vorianwell done Old_Soldier01:41
pedro_woohoo01:41
pleia2very good work Old_Soldier :)01:41
pedro_yes a +1 from me, thanks for the contributions Old_Soldier01:41
effie_jayx+1 from me Old_Soldier01:41
Old_Soldierhttps://launchpad.net/boucft01:41
pedro_and thanks for the link ;-)01:42
_MMA_+101:43
pedro_great, welcome aboard Old_Soldier!01:43
vorianwelcome aboard Old_Soldier :)01:43
jacobcongratulations Old_Soldier!!!01:43
paultagOld_Soldier: Congrats!!! You Deserve it!01:43
bodhi_zazenWoot01:43
emmajanecongrats Old_Soldier01:43
nellerycongrats Old_Soldier!01:43
Old_Soldier:) thanks everyone I appreciate the support01:43
Rocket2DMncongrats Old_Soldier , much deserved!01:44
vor1Old_Soldier does indeed deserve it01:44
pedro_is Hellow around?01:44
pedro_tick tack tick tack01:44
Rocket2DMnno hes not, sorry01:44
effie_jayxHello Hellow?01:44
pedro_ok no worries01:44
pleia2Joeb454: you're up!01:44
vorianJoeb454: you're up01:44
vorian:)01:44
Joeb454oh no :P01:44
effie_jayxJoeb454: you are up01:44
pedro_no? let's skip him then!01:45
Joeb454OK my wiki page, LP page & Forums profile01:45
pedro_just kidding01:45
Joeb454https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Joeb45401:45
Joeb454https://edge.launchpad.net/~joeb45401:45
Joeb454http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=37305701:45
Joeb454and I'm Joeb454. 19 & from the UK - I don't sleep - clearly. And I'm one of the new forum staff members, I enjoying helping the new people feel welcomed into Ubuntu & it's community. The forums are - in my opinion - a fantastic resource for newcomers and veterans to Ubuntu, and I try and help wherever possible01:45
bodhi_zazenJoeb454, is a machine01:45
bodhi_zazenHe is going to wear out LaRoza, lol01:45
Joeb454lol, let me finish pasting bodhi_zazen, though thanks :)01:45
Joeb454Currently, my main area of contribution is the Ubuntu Forums, though I also promote Ubuntu within my local community whenever I can - I've assisted a few of people from University to switch. As well as this, I've recently been trying to get more involved with Launchpad Answers as well as the Forums.01:45
Joeb454In future I hope to be able to contribute more directly to Open-Source and the software it spawns - i.e. by programming and patching bugs etc, though that will likely come after University, when I should hopefully have a little more time.01:45
jacobbodhi_zazen: he is ;)01:45
Joeb454ty jacob01:45
jacobJoeb454 is another awesome addition to the forum staff. always willing to go out there and help out. big props.01:45
* vor1 thinks Joeb454 is trying to supplant LaRoza as Head Borg.01:46
Old_Soldierhe will!01:46
Joeb454shh!!01:46
* st33med duct tapes Old_Soldier's mouth to stop secret01:46
vorianJoeb454: so, what is the best part of contributing for you?01:46
Joeb454personally, i love contributing on the forums, because I get that sense of knowing I've helped somebody01:47
paultagside note: <plug> Joeb454: stops at nothing to contribute to a project -- he worked on Sabre with me, and he really pushed the project to where it is today </plug>01:47
Joeb454though as I enjoy programming, I'd like to do more devel stuff, my experience with paultag working on sabre only strengthened my desire to contribute that way01:48
Joeb454I just don't have enough time currently (or programming skill, I'm working on both though)01:48
pleia2Joeb454: development looks to be a more long term goal - goals for the short term? continued work in the forums I'd hope :) anything else?01:48
Joeb454yes definitely forums01:48
Joeb454I'm keeping a keen eye on the Beginners Team as it goes from strength to strength01:49
Joeb454I feel it's a great part of the community, working to help newcomers feel welcomed into it01:49
vorianawesome01:49
Joeb454i think it is :)01:49
* pleia2 makes note to talk to the Beginners Team about Ubuntu Classroom01:50
pleia2does the beginners team have a mailing list?01:50
bodhi_zazenBT want classroom01:50
Joeb454+1 bodhi_zazen01:50
bodhi_zazenwe are starting with an internal education program01:50
Joeb454and pleia2 I don't think it worked out when we tried it01:50
pedro_Joeb454: regarding your work within your loco team, may you tell us a bit of it? what do you consider your top contribution to the team?01:50
bodhi_zazenas it comes on line we want to contribute to classroom too01:50
pleia2bodhi_zazen: Ubuntu Classroom is a more centralized program for all teams, we'll have to talk :)01:50
bodhi_zazen:)01:50
Joeb454pedro_, I'm not currently active in it, though I'm looking into it01:51
bodhi_zazenBT is not ready ... yet, but interested01:51
pwnguinJoeb454: there was a recent debacle about certain motherboards, that got way out of hand; how might we better educate new Ubuntu users about the Code of Conduct?01:51
Joeb454I do however recommend Ubuntu to a lot of people when I think it would suite their needs01:51
pedro_Joeb454: can i ask why not? not enough time?01:51
Joeb454pedro_, yes mainly01:51
pedro_alright01:51
Joeb454pwnguin, get them to read it, and gently remind them about it via some sort of PM01:51
Joeb454pedro_, I do help people with Ubuntu whenever I get the time, I guided a friend through the entire install via PM the other week :P01:52
vorianthat sounds like a treat, very impressive01:53
Joeb454lol, he thought it was awesome01:53
pleia2+1 from me - keep up the great work Joeb454 :)01:53
vorianmy vote is the same as _MMA_'s01:53
vorian+101:53
pedro_haha01:54
vorian:)01:54
Joeb454pleia2, I'll try01:54
pedro_+1 from here01:54
pleia2(oh, and you're allowed to sleep sometimes ;))01:54
Joeb454thanks :)01:54
Joeb454pleia2, I call it "recharging" though01:54
vorian(mma did give his +1, but had to leave)01:54
Joeb454oh ok cool01:54
effie_jayx+1 from me too01:55
Joeb454\o/01:55
vorianwelcome aboard Joeb454 :)01:55
jacobcongrats Joeb454! :)01:55
paultagJoeb454: Congrats!!!!01:55
* Old_Soldier thumps Joeb454 on the back Grats Joe!01:55
Rocket2DMncongratulations Joeb454 !01:55
Joeb454thanks a lot :)01:55
pleia2welcome Joeb454!01:55
emmajanecongrats Joeb45401:55
Joeb454except Old_Soldier, that hurt01:55
nellerycongrats Joeb454!01:55
Joeb454ty :)01:55
pleia2gQuigs: you now! :)01:55
gQuigsMy names is Bryan Quigley, and I have been active in the NJ Loco Team since 2006, volunteering at practically every event.01:56
* yoda_van cheers for gQuigs 01:56
hardingI cheer for gQuigs.  He's made significant contributions to the NJ Ubuntu LoCo; he's been a member of the team longer than anyone else and we'd be much less of a team, or maybe not a team at all, without him.01:56
vorianJoeb454: nice user title btw01:56
bodhi_zazenwOOt01:56
Joeb454I may disappear soon, UK time etc.01:56
Joeb454and ty vorian01:56
gQuigsI mainly try to bring Ubuntu and FLOSS in general to the local community as best I can, with a side of triaging and lot's of ideas.01:56
gQuigshttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gquigs01:56
gQuigshttps://launchpad.net/~gquigs01:56
pleia2gQuigs volunteered at the Trenton Computer Festival Ubuntu table while I just wandered around and spent all my money :) he does great01:57
voriangQuigs: farmers market? what was that like?01:57
yoda_vanhaha01:58
harding:)01:58
paultaghaha01:58
gQuigsthat was interesting01:58
pleia2there are pictures!01:58
voriani'm sure it was :)01:58
pedro_gQuigs: do you have some photos we can see from the last event?01:58
gQuigssure01:58
mrooneyI just want to add that I really appreciate many of gQuigs brainstorm ideas!01:58
gQuigspedro_: define last event?01:59
hardingFarmer's Market: http://www.joeterranova.net/photos/September_Columbus/index.html01:59
hardingLast event, a LAN Party: http://www.joeterranova.net/2008/04/14/15_hours_in_my_basement/01:59
pedro_gQuigs: last event you participate in with your loco team02:00
pedro_ah nice, looking02:00
* vorian wishes irssi was playing nice atm02:00
pwnguingQuigs: do you feel that defectivebydesign's approach is in keeping with the code of conduct?02:00
gQuigsthat may have been TCF 0802:01
gQuigsbut gQuigs has a very bad memory02:01
effie_jayxI find this participation very interesting... good LoCo work02:02
gQuigspwnguin: interesting question, which part of the CoC do you think it violates02:02
pwnguinwell, lets take the specific example of booking genius bar time02:02
pwnguinhttp://www.defectivebydesign.org/apple-challenge02:02
effie_jayxpwnguin,  could you discuss this out of a meeting ;)02:02
pwnguinsure.02:03
effie_jayxpwnguin,  thanks ;)02:03
voriangQuigs: i'm happy to give you my +102:03
effie_jayxgQuigs,  for your LoCo involvement and brave work at the Farm Expo ;D02:04
gQuigspwnguin:  I think it is fully covered under the CoC02:04
effie_jayx+102:04
pleia2+1 from me, excellent loco work gQuigs :)02:04
pedro_yeah a +1 here also, keep the loco work rocking02:05
vorianwelcome aboard gQuigs :)02:05
gQuigsThank You!02:05
* yoda_van cheers for gQuigs and jersey farmers makets ;)02:05
pedro_congrats and welcome gQuigs02:05
hardingCongratulations, gQuigs!02:05
pleia2congrats gQuigs!02:05
gQuigsty all02:05
Joeb454congrats gQuigs02:05
emgentcongrats gQuigs and welcome.02:05
emmajanecongrats gQuigs02:05
paultaggQuigs: congrats!02:05
Old_Soldiercongrats gQuigs02:05
emgentbut please fix your nick typo :)02:05
pedro_tedg1: you're up02:06
tedg1Howdy all.02:06
tedg1I'm Ted Gould, and I mostly contribute to Ubuntu by being on the Desktop Team.02:06
tedg1I've done most of the packaging and maintenance of the gnome-power-manager and gnome-screensaver packages for Hardy.02:07
tedg1And continued on for Intrepid.02:07
tedg1I've also done a few presentations promoting Ubuntu, and trying to get more people involved.02:07
tedg1Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TedGould02:07
tedg1LP: http://launchpad.net/~ted-gould02:07
emgentThe best question is: why dont wait and apply directly to ubuntu universe contributors ?02:08
tedg1Well, I thought I needed membership first :)02:08
Hobbseeu-u-c does membership too.02:09
HobbseeOTOH, you could get membership here, then apply directly for MOTU?02:09
emgentnods.02:09
emgentuhm.. i dont understand..02:10
emgentEmail:    ted.gould@ubuntu.com  ?02:10
pedro_tedg1: are you a member of a loco team?02:10
emgentwhy you set this mail ?02:10
tedg1pedro_: Not really, I have participated in a few California meetings, etc.  But I wouldn't call myself a member.  And I just moved to Texas and haven't had a chance to hook up with those folks.02:10
tedg1emgent: Yes, that address was created as a mistake, which I'm trying to fix :)02:11
emgentoh ok :)02:11
emgenttedg1: anyway Hobbsee suggest is good for me.02:11
voriantedg1: so are you going to apply to the u-u-c?02:12
tedg1Yeah, I'm not sure whether uuc or motu makes the most sense next.  I'm not sure if I have enough packages for MOTU yet.02:12
tedg1Also, most of my packages have gone into main, not universe.  I'm not sure if that's an issue.02:13
emgentok understand.02:13
tedg1I imagine one can't do core-dev before motu though ;)02:13
emgenttedg1: anyway i think that its appropriate ask u-u-c or motu :)02:14
effie_jayxok02:14
voriantedg1: might be best to email the motu council to clarify02:14
effie_jayxthis is great work tedg102:14
voriani don't think you'll have a problem though02:14
vorian:)02:14
tedg1Yeah, I was going to ask Daniel and clarify all that, he should know.02:14
vorianyep02:14
effie_jayx+1 from me02:14
emgentnice :)02:14
pleia2tedg1: very nice work, some impressive presentations - well done :)02:15
tedg1effie_jayx: Thanks.02:15
emgentcongrats tedg1 and welcome :)02:15
tedg1pleia2: Thank you.02:15
paultagcongrats tedg102:15
pleia2+1 from me02:15
vorian+1 from me too02:15
pedro_totally +1, nice work indeed ;-)02:15
emgenttedg1: are you DD or DM ?02:15
tedg1Thank you all!02:15
voriantedg1: good luck with the MC as well02:15
tedg1emgent: No, but I was talking about doing the Inkscape packages for Debian with that.02:16
pleia2congrats tedg1! good luck on your way to motu :)02:16
emgenttedg1: ok nice02:16
pedro_he's an Inkscape developer, that's a lot02:16
vorianemmajane: you are up!02:16
pedro_;-(02:16
emmajanew00t02:17
pedro_;-)02:17
vorian:)02:17
pedro_grgrg damn keyboard02:17
emgentemmajane: heya :)02:17
dindago emmajane!02:17
* emmajane pastes her intro:02:17
emmajaneHello! An intro, eh? Well. I'm EmmaJane Hogbin, a Canadian nerd who earns a living from many things related to FOSS, and I am here today to apply to be an Ubuntu Member. To date my greatest contribution to Ubuntu is advocacy within my physical community and also within the Ubuntu Women project. I've put together my Wiki page to highlight some of my work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmmaJane02:17
effie_jayxemmajane,  I have to say on thing02:17
effie_jayx+1 from me02:17
pedro_haha02:17
effie_jayxstraight out... YOU ROCK02:17
pedro_how come?02:17
* emmajane grins. Thank you, effie_jayx.02:18
emgentemmajane: launchpad page?02:18
pleia2emmajane has done tons of work with ubuntu-women, including writing a whole series of articles this year for full circle magazine for the team, writing our roadmap, and in general working to get the team into Action :)02:18
effie_jayxpedro_,  have you seen her presentations of inkscape...02:18
emgentok found.02:18
pedro_effie_jayx: oh not yet, where can i find them?02:18
effie_jayxpedro_,  wiki page ;)02:18
emmajanehttps://launchpad.net/~emmajane02:18
pedro_effie_jayx: great, thanks02:19
dindaditto what pleia2 said plus I've met emmajane and heard her speak at LugRadio US02:19
effie_jayxemmajane,  sorry If I cut you off02:19
emmajaneeffie_jayx: no worries. :)02:19
Hobbseeyay, emmajane!02:19
emmajanethanks, Hobbsee :)02:20
pleia2easy +1 from me, fantastic work emmajane!02:20
vorian+1 :)02:20
effie_jayxvorian,  and pedro_ ?02:20
vorianfulfilling a planet request to boot02:20
vorian:)02:20
pedro_+1 from here too ;-)02:21
pleia2woohoo, congrats emmajane!!02:21
pedro_emmajane: please add your blog to the planet ;-)02:21
pleia2yes, add your blog :)02:21
* emmajane claps with delight.02:21
emmajaneThanks. :)02:21
vorianSEJeff: are you back by chance?02:21
vorianwelcome emmajane :)02:21
dindacongrats emmajane!  now you have to buy us all a drink02:21
nellerycongrats emmajane!!02:21
pedro_drinks? where?02:21
* emmajane grins atta dinda. Virtual drinks on me back in #ubuntu-women ;)02:22
pleia2w00t!02:22
pedro_yay!02:22
voriancongrats to all the new members, and thanks for stopping in tonight!02:22
paultag:) ty vorian02:23
gQuigsthank you02:23
voriansee ya next time!02:23
emmajanethanks. :)02:23
Old_Soldier:) thanks02:23
nellerygrats to all new members :)02:23
pedro_yes congratulations guys and let's keep Ubuntu rocking the house!02:23
pleia2congrats everyone :)02:23
tedg1Thank you.02:23
effie_jayxthank you all02:26
effie_jayxkeep up the great work02:26
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
=== persia_ is now known as persia
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu MOTU Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
persiaWho's here for the MOTU Meeting?04:59
* ScottK is sort of half here.04:59
nxvlo/04:59
NCommanderI'm here04:59
NCommanderBut I'm sorta braindamaged04:59
NCommanderI've been debugging dak04:59
* NCommander hides from dak05:00
persiaOK.  While we gather, any volunteers to chair the meeting?05:01
* NCommander raises hand if non-MOTUs can chair05:01
persiaNCommander: Certainly.  You know how to use MootBot?05:01
NCommanderNot a clue05:02
NCommanderand I doubt it has a man page05:02
persiahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot05:02
* NCommander blinks05:02
NCommanderWOw05:02
NCommanderDocumentation05:02
NCommanderWTF?05:02
LaserJockwoah, watch the CoC there ;-)05:03
NCommanderWorse than failure is a bad word ;-)?05:03
persiaNCommander: You may also find https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings useful as input to guiding the meeting.05:03
NCommanderMootBot, #startmeeting05:03
NCommander...05:03
* Hobbsee is a little bit here05:03
persiaDon't prefix the command with anything.05:03
NCommander#startmeeting?05:03
Hobbsee#startmeeting05:03
MootBotMeeting started at 23:07. The chair is Hobbsee.05:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]05:03
NCommander#startmeeting05:03
MootBotNCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.05:03
Hobbseedrat.05:04
NCommanderBah05:04
NCommanderTHe bot is lagging05:04
persiaHobbsee is chair!05:04
Hobbseei am!05:04
* Hobbsee MUHAHAHAHA05:04
NCommanderI typed it in first >.<;05:04
NCommanderargh05:04
NCommanderoh well05:04
HobbseeNCommander: you needed to lose the ?05:04
persiaNCommander: You added a '?' so it didn't work.05:04
* NCommander passes the chair, and thus the responsibilities of the meeting to Hobbsee 05:04
Hobbseeso...05:04
NCommanderHobbsee, no, I typed it again just before Hobbsee05:04
Hobbsee#topic MOTU Key Team Selection05:04
NCommanderbut it lagged getting to the IRC server05:05
Hobbsee[topic] MOTU Key Team Selection05:05
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Key Team Selection05:05
Hobbseepersia: you're up!05:05
persiaOK.  We've been discussing how to select members for key teams for 6 weeks now.05:05
Hobbseeplease actually decide.  watching it is painful.05:05
persiaThe ML thread seems to have died, and NCommander, who was appointed shepherd hasn't sent anything.05:05
NCommanderI was susposed to send something?05:06
persiaAlso, we're running out of members on key teams, and desperately need to have a means to get new ones.05:06
persiaSo, what needs doing to have a policy?05:06
* ScottK ponders RFC 3933 and gets back to $WORK.05:06
NCommanderpersia, someone probably just needs to write it, and say "We're doing this"05:06
NCommanderWe could draft it now, or two proposals, and put it to a vote tonight05:07
persiaNCommander: and as shepherd from the last meeting, I'd expect you'd want to do that, no?05:07
nxvlpersia: but how can we select for candidates? in a time basis?05:08
persiaThe other option is admitting that we can't come to a conclusion, and pushing to MOTU Council, but I don't like doing that.05:08
NCommanderThat was the idea. I wasn't aware that I was susposed to actually start the conversation on the list, I thought I just gathered what was posted to put to a vote for this meeting ...05:08
nxvlbeing it: "it need to be a motu for X time"05:08
NCommanderso I dropped the ball :-/05:08
NCommanderI say we do extactly what we do for regular MOTU membership05:08
NCommanderYou put forth a nomination05:08
persianxvl: I don't think that should be a requirement, as long as someone is currently MOTU and has sufficient respect by everyone else.05:08
NCommanderPeople can sponsor you for the position05:08
NCommanderAnd if there is any objections, have a window where they can publically be posted05:09
NCommanderratification needs to be by majority vote05:09
persiaNCommander: You say, or you believe this to be consensus?05:09
nxvlpersia: that's where i wanted to come05:09
NCommanderpersia, I was putting it forth as an idea05:09
ScottKI didn't say so on the ML, but I liked the proposal.05:09
nxvlpersia: how can you meassure the "respect" of developers05:09
ScottKnxvl: When it's been absent in the past, there hasn't been any confusion about it.05:10
NCommander[IDEA] Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship05:10
MootBotIDEA received:  Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship05:10
persianxvl: I tend to think that it is best selected by nobody saying "they don't know what they are talking about", and voting in the rare occasion we have too many people who want to be on the team, but that's my viewpoint.05:10
HobbseeNCommander: i'll make this easy:  the chair of the meeting won't let this meeting finish, until there's a definite policy :P05:11
NCommanderHobbsee, that's what I was going to do as chair05:11
NCommander[IDEA] Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team05:11
MootBotIDEA received:  Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team05:11
Hobbseegood idea ;)05:11
persiaErr, council is appointed by TB, although they tend to take our recommendations.  We can't adjust that.  This is for -sru and -release, and maybe other types of MOTU/Leaders05:11
ScottKAnd it's mid day in .au, so she'll likely be awake for long time05:11
HobbseeScottK: well, i'll have to go to wokr eventually.  but yeah :D05:11
* persia cheers the idea of filibusters05:11
NCommanderwell, we have two ideas on the table05:12
Hobbseeis this anyone who's a MOTU, or anyone at all?05:12
LaserJockcan I interject just for a second?05:12
NCommanderHobbsee, MOTU is a requirement05:12
Hobbseeoh good05:12
NCommanderI think that's always been clear05:12
NCommanderLaserJock, shoot05:12
Hobbseejust checking05:12
persiaFor some roles, MOTU is optional (e.g. LP Liaison, MOTU School Dean, etc.), for others, I think it's a requirement (e.g. -sru, -release)05:12
LaserJockdid anybody *not* approve of persia's proposal to ubuntu-motu?05:12
NCommander(I should say MOTU or better, but you catch my drift)05:12
persiaLaserJock: That's a good place to start :)05:13
NCommanderLaserJock, refresh the proposal for me05:13
persiaNCommander: There is no *better*05:13
ScottKNCommander: core-dev are also MOTU, so there is no better.05:13
* ScottK high fives persia05:13
* NCommander inserts foot in mouth05:13
persiaWell, most core-dev are also MOTU.  The rest don't tend to play in universe05:13
NCommanderOk05:13
LaserJockMOTU trinity perhaps? ;-)05:13
NCommanderLet me be more clear05:13
NCommanderWe're all agreed that -sru/-release must be an MOTU05:14
persiaLaserJock: MOTU trinity appoints everyone05:14
NCommanderRight?05:14
* persia thinks none of MOTU trinity has time just now.05:14
StevenKScottK: Only by team membership.05:14
ScottKTrue.05:14
persiaAnyway, my proposal was https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-July/004275.html05:14
ScottKNCommander: Yes.05:14
NCommanderMOTU trinity?05:14
StevenKSome core-dev aren't in the team. Like our esteamed chair.05:14
StevenKesteemed? Sigh. Spelling05:15
persiaNCommander: historical group who led MOTU prior to the foundation of MOTU Council05:15
ScottKNot sure you got it wrong.05:15
NCommanderpersia, ah05:15
nxvlNCommander: is anyone in doubt that motuship is a requirement?05:15
NCommandernxvl, Hobbsee was05:15
persiaI am, for some roles.05:15
Hobbseewhich team, sorry?05:15
LaserJockI would think UUC for some roles05:15
NCommanderHobbsee, -sru/-release05:15
Hobbseeoh, right.05:16
StevenK-{sru,release} is so MOTU only05:16
NCommanderLaserJock, UUC is acceptable for all others (essentially anything you need to upload)05:16
NCommanderer05:16
LaserJock?05:16
NCommander^upload requires MOTU05:16
NCommanderif the nature of the position requires you to upload to the archive05:16
persiaYes.  {-sru,-release} is very MOTU-only05:16
NCommanderThen you need to be an MOTU05:16
LaserJock*anyway*, why don't we quickly have a look at persia's proposal ^^ and see if there are any objections05:16
NCommanderOk, so that's clear05:16
NCommanderI have one problem with persia's proposal05:17
persiaWhat's that?05:17
NCommanderWe could get stuck with someone in sru/release for a very long time who is .... shall we say uncooperative at times05:17
persiaNCommander: Not likely: some MOTU would call for resignation, no?05:17
* StevenK beats NCommander with a Debian stick05:17
NCommanderI mean, go back 10 years, and you still had mostly the same ftpmasters on debian, and the release team.05:17
* NCommander is immune to StevenK's stick due his dak braindamage05:18
Hobbseepersia: not if they wanted their stuff approved.05:18
LaserJockwe have a pretty good history of people stepping down when they don't have time/interest05:18
NCommanderI'm just saying that power can corrupt05:18
StevenKNCommander: You're just bitter. Wait, we're both bitter.05:18
nxvlwhat we did on ubuntu-pe on the council foundation was:05:18
LaserJockNCommander: there's not a lot of power here05:18
persiaHobbsee: See, that's why we try to have multiple members.05:18
nxvlthe one interested on the position sends a mail to the list, if he get's 2 ACK's it's an elegible candidate05:19
StevenKAnd usually -{sru,release} is commenting on bugs saying "Oh, fine, upload your damn package"05:19
persiaAnyway, if a current team is completely broken, we can always look to MC for dispute resolution, or in the worst case, go to TB.05:19
Hobbseei agree with NCommander's thought, though - for whatever reason, the person themselves might want to keep serving, but the general team might not want them to, and a method of asking them to step aside might be a good one.05:19
NCommanderThe problem with asking people for a resignation is it creates a lot of bad tension, and will turn u-motu into u-drama05:19
Hobbseepower to the head, and all that.05:19
StevenKActual wording may be different.05:19
nxvlso any candidature must need at least 2 people supporting it05:19
nxvlbefore the poll05:19
persiaNCommander: I'm fine with drama if someone is misbehaving: it's far better than apathy, bitterness, and attrition.05:19
NCommanderI'd go also as far as every $X months, a vote is required for that person to keep the position, but no overall term limit05:20
StevenKPersonally, I'd like the team to be able to say +1, and others in the team to say -1. If n >= 2, it's okay. If it's not, fix it.05:20
NCommanderWell, if its a closed ballot vote, and the person is voted out, no drama05:20
HobbseeStevenK: ++05:20
persiaStevenK: I'm generally uncomfortable confirming someone when there is any negative vote, but I can see that viewpoint.05:20
LaserJockok, I have to say I find it slightly ironic that we're debating over how to kick people of the teams when we're here because we can't get them filled :-)05:20
NCommanderrofl05:20
Hobbseehaha05:21
StevenKpersia: Well, we can make a policy. n >= 2 and no negatives05:21
NCommanderStevenK, that can backfire if someone holds a gruge05:21
persiaStevenK: That works for me: two in support.05:21
persiaNCommander: In that case, there is a disagreement, which ought be sorted if we are to work effectively as a team.05:21
StevenKNCommander: It's supposed to -{sru,release} not -primary-school05:21
NCommanderStevenK, obviously I've been tainted by two years on d-devel05:22
StevenKNCommander: Unsubscribe, it worked for me.05:22
persiad-devel is different, in several ways.05:22
NCommanderI tried05:22
* StevenK used to read d-devel05:22
NCommanderd-devel won't remove me from the list05:22
* StevenK still has the scars05:22
NCommanderStevenK, they have abuse groups for that05:23
StevenKNCommander: Mail the listmasters05:23
persiaUmm.  Aren't we drifting?05:23
StevenKThey have this lovely command vi05:23
StevenKpersia: Just a little05:23
Hobbseeyes, yes, we're drifting.  this is ubuntu here.05:23
NCommanderOk, back on topic05:23
* persia wants more SRU team members05:23
LaserJockpersia: I have a question about your proposal05:23
LaserJockspecifically, I don't quite understand the paragraph starting with "If the acceptance of a candidate would push the team oversize"05:23
StevenKpersia: So, we clone you a few times, and there's our -{sru,release}.05:23
* persia fails to type !ask, but only barely05:23
NCommanderActually, I have one thing I'd like to amend05:23
persiaStevenK: I'm in neither team, which is probably a good thing :p05:23
NCommanderAnd that is to loose the -sru max team size05:24
NCommanderI can't think of a great reason why it should be there05:24
persiaLaserJock: Basically, if more people want to join than there are slots, we vote, and someone steps down.05:24
NCommanderSince there is always a good backup of sru requests, make it so anyone who's qualified could work towards resolving them05:24
LaserJockwe vote on the whole team?05:24
persiaIf there are a lot of pending applications, the election may be delayed.05:24
persiaLaserJock: Yes, with e.g. 5 winners out of 7.05:24
LaserJockwhy would the election be delated?05:24
LaserJock*delayed05:24
NCommanderAgain, why are we capping the team size?05:25
StevenKBecause we're apparently Debian and can't agree.05:25
persiaIn the case that say three people applied to fill one position on the team, we'd wait for the one-week discussion period to pass for each of the three before holding the vote.  Saves having three votes in a couple weeks.05:25
NCommanderStevenK, I suddenly flashed back to when Ian brought up the triggers stink on d-devel05:25
LaserJockpersia: oh, I see05:25
persiaNCommander: Because both teams exist from TB requests to get a collection of people with expertise to rule on these matters.05:26
StevenKNCommander: That is because most Developers saw the U-word and charged.05:26
LaserJockpersia: could we instead have a "call for nominations" so that the times aren't staggered?05:26
persiaIT doesn't make sense to have the collection of expertise be everyone.05:26
LaserJockexactly05:26
NCommanderIf the MOTU community feels someone is suited for a job, and they want to do it, why bar them?05:26
persiaLaserJock: I guess.  I'm only imagining a delay of at most three or four days.  Given how likely it is that I'm supposed to set up the election, and by supply of tuits, I suspect we'd have such a delay anyway.05:26
persias/by/my/05:26
LaserJockNCommander: again, the irony05:26
LaserJockI think the problem is filling, not limiting05:27
ScottKNCommander: What have an SRU team if it can just be everyone (hint: We tried that.  Didn't work so good).05:27
NCommanderScottK, and there's a reason why not ;-)05:27
StevenKLaserJock: You need to turn off your iron detector05:27
LaserJockpersia: ok, fine. that paragraph was just a bit confusing to me. I got it know05:27
NCommanderLaserJock, that thing is licensed under the GPL license, its got no warrenty it works right05:27
* ScottK declares it bed time.05:28
persiaScottK: before you go05:28
ScottKYes?05:28
NCommanderI'd like to call for a vote, just to see where people are standing: The vote should be "Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal"05:28
persiaAs you've yet to update w.u.c/MOTU/Meetings with instructions for the decision process, what needs doing to confirm this?05:28
nxvlalso everyone can do the job05:28
ScottKRates.05:29
nxvlno one say you can't05:29
ScottKRats05:29
Hobbsee[vote] Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal05:29
MootBotPlease vote on:  Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal.05:29
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot05:29
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting05:29
nxvlbut some people (group of) need to take the lead on the topic05:29
* persia probably should have put the agenda items in opposite order05:29
NCommander+05:29
ScottKpersia: NCommander makes a summary and asks for comment on the ML.  If he judges that the rough consensus is in favor, it's in.05:29
persia+0 because it's my proposal05:29
MootBotAbstention received from persia. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 005:29
NCommanderer +105:29
NCommander+105:29
MootBot+1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 105:29
ScottK+105:29
MootBot+1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 205:29
Hobbsee+105:29
MootBot+1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 305:29
LaserJock+105:29
MootBot+1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 405:29
StevenK+105:29
MootBot+1 received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 505:29
LaserJock\0/05:30
nxvl+105:30
MootBot+1 received from nxvl. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 605:30
persiaScottK: If I judge?  NCommander was appointed shepherd: is it not if Ncommander judges?05:30
NCommanderOk, now we're getting somewhere05:30
ScottKAnyone who violently objects to NCommander's consensus call can appeal to MC.05:30
Hobbsee[endvote]05:30
MootBotFinal result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 605:30
NCommanderhuh, what?05:30
Hobbseeright.05:30
persiaNever mind: I misread that.05:30
NCommanderLook, we're all leaning towards persia's proposal05:30
persiaNCommander: It's all up to you.05:30
ScottKpersia: If NCommander judges.05:30
ScottKRight.05:30
NCommanderNow we just need to refine it, and post it to the list05:30
Hobbseeright, so what bits of persia's proposal needs refining.05:30
ScottKGood night and good luck.05:30
Hobbsee[agreed] We're going with persia's proposal to the list05:31
MootBotAGREED received:  We're going with persia's proposal to the list05:31
NCommanderI'll open the floor for anyone to [IDEA]05:31
NCommander;-)05:31
persiaThere were a few issues mentioned in followup email on the thread: those ought be incorporated.05:31
LaserJockwell, I for one would like the get the cliff notes/bullet point version :-)05:31
persiabullet points:05:31
NCommanderI've got six hours05:31
StevenKDamn university people wanting cliff notes05:31
NCommanderI can hammer this thing out, and make it done and stick05:31
persia* Team sizes are limited05:31
persia* Anyone can apply at any time05:31
persia* An application needs 2 supporters within a week to be successful, and no (unretracted) criticism05:32
NCommanderI05:32
persia* If an application is successful, but puts the team oversize, we vote on who drops out05:32
NCommanderThat rubs me the wrong way on that last bit05:32
persia* Any MOTU can call for resignation of any team member at any time, which generates discussion, and one of retraction of the call for resignation, a resignation, or dispute resolution by MC.05:33
persiabullet points done.05:33
NCommanderThe second to last one rubs me the wrong way05:33
StevenKNCommander: Only because you want no limit on the team size05:33
NCommanderI'm willing to conceed on that point05:33
StevenKHaving fifteen people on the team and only needing +2 is ... pointless05:33
persiaTB has specifically asked that we provide a small team to do these things.  As ScottK noted, we used to have an open team, and that annoyed the archive-admins05:33
LaserJockwell, the only thing I'd say would be that we should vote on who *stays* not who goes, but that's sort of semantics05:34
NCommanderBut the problem is if you have five people doing it who are doing it without issue, I'm not going to be the one who votes who leaves the island05:34
NCommanderWhat is this, MOTU survivor?05:34
LaserJockyes05:34
* StevenK votes off NCommander 05:34
* NCommander declares StevenK the weakest link05:34
StevenKHa!05:34
NCommanderStevenK, beside, you can't vote me off, I'm not an MOTU ;-)05:34
persiaNCommander: If we have five people doing the job well, it's unlikely someone else will want to join the team.05:34
LaserJockand if it really comes to it, we can bump the max size05:35
persiaRIght, although we'd want to confirm that with TB05:35
LaserJockbut just because people are good at what they do doesn't mean they necessarily should be doing it05:35
nxvli don't really think we will get to the point where we have a overlanded team05:35
nxvli find it to difficult05:36
LaserJockI think rotations are nice, giving people a break05:36
* persia notes that policy isn't etched in stone or anything: having no policy is bad: having a policy that needs fixing is a soluable issue05:36
NCommandernxvl, well, the churn rate is kinda high05:36
NCommander;-)05:36
LaserJockit also sort of solves the "what if there's a crusty old bugger that nobody likes" issue ;-)05:36
NCommanderI agree with LaserJock05:36
NCommanderMaybe we could have a reserve that anyone with two sponsors can join, and the actual team05:36
persiaRight.  One can call for resignation, or one can apply as a replacement.05:36
NCommanderAnd every release, people get shuffled in and out05:36
nxvlsince everyone knows he can do the job without having the diploma saying he's able to do it05:37
LaserJockgosh, we don't want *that* much churn05:37
persiaI don't like shuffling people every release.  We tried that, and the learning curve bit us.05:37
NCommanderI still think rotations are a good thing personally05:37
* ajmitch has already shuffled off long ago05:37
LaserJockrotation is good05:37
NCommanderLets put it to a vote05:37
LaserJockrotating constantly is not05:37
NCommanderSHould the sru/release team have rotations?05:38
LaserJock-1, it should be as needed05:38
StevenKNot every release05:38
NCommanderOnce a year ;-)05:38
NCommanderOnce ever LTS?05:38
StevenKIf someone wants to keep doing it, let them05:38
persiaWe already killed that a long time ago.05:38
nxvlwe can suggest people to go trought a selection process again every 6 months on a volunteer basis05:39
NCommanderso no rotations?05:39
nxvlbut we can't do more05:39
* NCommander pokes Hobbsee 05:39
ajmitchNCommander: careful05:39
* Hobbsee pokes back05:39
NCommanderOh good, she's alive05:39
Hobbseesorry, are we voting again, or?05:39
NCommanderLaserJock, well, how would you handle rotations05:39
StevenKNon-automatically05:40
LaserJockpeople come and go as time and interest permits05:40
NCommanderHobbsee, I'm not sure anymore, I wanted to see where people sat on having rotations (of a term length to be decided)05:40
persiaNCommander: Generally people stop after a year or so: that provides openings for new people.05:40
persiaAs long as not everyone stops at once, the team can maintain culture and shared expertise.05:40
HobbseeNCommander: oh.  rotations can be good05:40
NCommanderI'm just worried we get stuck in the Debian solution05:40
NCommanderer, problem05:40
LaserJockNCommander: we are *not* Debian05:40
ajmitchNCommander: bitterness & disillusionment?05:40
persiaWe won't.  Ubuntu is culturally far too distinct from Debian05:40
NCommanderYeah05:40
NCommanderI'm learning that05:41
NCommanderOk05:41
ajmitchexcellent05:41
ajmitchyou're well on your way05:41
NCommanderDO we need rotations actually written in the policy05:41
StevenKNo05:41
NCommanderOr can it be sorta an ad-hoc thing05:41
LaserJockas long as there are people who come forward to replace it really won't be a problem05:41
nxvlyeah05:41
NCommanderOK05:41
nxvlubuntu is really different05:41
NCommanderI assume the five team limit is something thats already in place05:41
NCommanderor does that require discussion05:41
nxvlpeople (like we have seen some days ago) step down for responsabilities when they can't handle it05:41
NCommander(I'm going to say it doesn't, but I just want to make sure we can kill this off the meeting list for good)05:42
persiaWe had an exception once and went to six, but one of the members was on vacation, and we were back to five before he returned.05:42
LaserJockI tend to think it may need to be a per-team thing05:42
NCommanderSo the leader of the team chooses, or?05:42
LaserJocksome teams just don't need to be that big05:42
persiaLet's go with "five" for now, and allow exceptions if we want.05:42
LaserJockk, sounds good05:42
NCommanderOk05:42
NCommanderWorks for me05:42
persia(the facility for exceptions doesn't need to be in policy: it's implied by the way we do things)05:43
* NCommander perfers to cover his bases05:43
NCommanderIs there any outstanding issues with persia's that haven't been covered05:43
NCommanderGoing once05:43
nxvlpersia: would you present the New Decision Process now or will wait a bit more05:43
nxvl?05:43
NCommandernxvl, we need to run it through a final vote just to make it offical ;-)05:44
NCommanderTo recap05:44
persianxvl: When the chair asks, once this topic is complete.05:44
st33mednight05:44
NCommander* -sru/-release are five man teams who are all MOTUs. More people can be added if needed05:44
NCommander* - Anyone can leave the teams at any time by posting to u-motu with their resignation05:45
LaserJock*cough* women are allowed *cough*05:45
Hobbsee[vote] Agree with NCommander's summary above?05:45
MootBotPlease vote on:  Agree with NCommander's summary above?.05:45
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot05:45
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting05:45
NCommanderHobbsee, I'm not done typing it!05:45
StevenKHah05:45
StevenKLaserJock: Dear me05:45
HobbseeNCommander: sorry, i wasn't sure if you were05:45
* persia stuffs LaserJock for irrelevancy and redundant restatement of base assumptions05:46
StevenKLaserJock: That's a little unecessary05:46
NCommander* - To join the team, you nomination yourself, and need two sponsorship requests. the floor is opened to -motu for anyone to post criticisms. Any valid criticisms that are not retracted or resolved invalidates that member from joining the team05:46
NCommander* - Any MOTU can request the resignination of someone on -sru/-release, which is handled via a vote at the next meeting05:46
persiaNote that non-motu may comment, but their complaints may not be honoured.05:46
NCommanderpersia, That's why its "Any valid criticism"05:47
NCommander;-)05:47
LaserJockStevenK: sorry, been living in a PC world too long I guess :-)05:47
persiaWhat?  Why vote on calls for resignation?05:47
nxvl+105:47
MootBot+1 received from nxvl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 105:47
NCommanderIf the member chooses not to step down05:47
NCommander+105:47
MootBot+1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 205:47
NCommanderactually05:47
persiaIf there is a call, and it is not withdrawn I'd rather push to MC for dispute resolution than have a vote.05:47
Hobbsee+105:47
MootBot+1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 305:47
* persia is not a fan of democracy05:47
NCommander+005:47
LaserJockwoah, woah05:47
ajmitchLaserJock: what a shocking thought :)05:48
LaserJocklet's figure out this last issue before we go voting05:48
nxvlpersia: me neither, but if don't you have anarchy05:48
NCommanderHobbsee, cancel the vote05:48
nxvlpersia: so it's a needed virus05:48
NCommanderOk05:48
LaserJocknxvl: no, we have mechanisms in place05:48
Hobbseehow?05:48
persianxvl: There are other functional governance structures: it's all about balancing entitlement and corruption.05:48
NCommanderHobbsee, file a feature request against MootBoo, and wait on the developers ;-)05:48
persiaYou can't cancel a vote, but you can end a vote.05:49
persiaAlternately, we can discuss, and those that wish may change their votes.05:49
NCommanderOk, lets discuss05:49
Hobbseepersia: +1 for the second option05:49
NCommanderWhat's the current method of bringing up a problem MOTU/core-dev05:49
persiaSo, my feeling is that if any MOTU is unhappy with a member of a key team, we have a problem.05:49
NCommander(lets just get it out in the open and on e-paper)05:50
LaserJockbecause we have a MOTU Council who's specifically designed for dispute resolution I don't think voting on resignations needs to be addressed here05:50
persiaThe first way to solve that is for the complainant (or a proxy) to send an email noting the reasons why that key team member may not be suitable.05:50
NCommanderOk05:50
persiaAs a result, the team member may resign, or there may be discussion, and the call for resignation may be wihdrawn.05:50
persiaIf we can't reach a decision, we tell MC they need to resolve the dispute.05:51
NCommanderLets simply note that if a team member chooses not to resign, and the resignation is not recalled, MC has to handle it05:51
nxvlneed to go05:51
nxvlread you later05:51
persiaThat way nobody can complain that they didn't win a vote, or something was a popularity contest.05:51
NCommanderSimple, and clean,05:51
persiaWe resolve the root issues, and move on.05:51
persiaNCommander: Right, which is what was in my proposal.05:51
NCommanderWith that as our resignation policy, are there any objections05:51
NCommanderIf there are none, please vote now05:52
LaserJock+105:52
MootBot+1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 405:52
* NCommander plays the jeopardy music05:52
persia+105:52
MootBot+1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 505:52
NCommanderI think everyone who's going to vote has voted, Hobbsee care to close the vote?05:53
StevenK+105:53
MootBot+1 received from StevenK. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 605:53
StevenKSo nyah05:53
NCommanderbah, StevenK messing up my plans for vote domination05:54
Hobbsee[endvote]05:54
MootBotFinal result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 605:54
Hobbseesorry05:54
LaserJock\o/05:54
NCommanderW0005:54
NCommanderIt's resolved05:54
LaserJockwe made a real decision!05:54
Hobbseeyay!05:54
NCommanderThanks to persia (and no thanks to me)05:54
Hobbseeokay, so...05:54
persiaNCommander: Just for reference, voting doesn't matter much: it's up to you to post an accurate summary of input to the list, call for discussion, and indicate when consensus is reached.05:54
LaserJock... or did we?05:54
* ajmitch curses dsl & ssh a few more times 05:54
persiaWe didn't. which brings me to the next agenda item :)05:54
NCommanderpersia, bah, you just undermined the happy thoughts05:55
Hobbseedrat.  i closed teh agenda tab.05:55
ajmitchunclose it05:55
Hobbsee[topic] [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?05:55
MootBotNew Topic:  [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?05:55
NCommanderReview of the "New Decision Process"05:55
Hobbseeoops05:55
* persia enrolls Hobbsee in the chairing meetings for geeks course05:55
NCommanderhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings05:55
Hobbsee[topic Review of the "New Decision Process" ]05:55
StevenKHaha05:55
Hobbsee[topic] Review of the "New Decision Process"05:55
MootBotNew Topic:  Review of the "New Decision Process"05:55
HobbseeFAIL!05:55
Hobbseebad copy key!05:56
NCommanderAnyone got the bullet points version, I have no idea what this is about from the summary05:56
persiaThere's nothing out there.05:56
ajmitchpersia does, I hope05:56
LaserJockhmm05:56
persiaAbout a month ago, or maybe six weeks, we agreed to trial the new decision process, and review it later.05:56
NCommanderThen uh ... what are we discussing?05:56
NCommanderOh05:56
NCommanderWhat was the old one?05:56
persiaSo, who likes/dislikes the new process vs. the old one, and why?05:57
StevenKUsing Launchpad?05:57
LaserJockI don't much care for any of them05:57
ajmitchpersia: the fact that noone can remember what it is says a lot05:57
persiaThe old one was that we made decisions in the MOTU Meetings, and where we weren't certain about consensus, we sent mail to the ML and revisited in the next MOTU Meeting.05:57
NCommanderWhat was the new one?05:57
LaserJockeither they take too long, or the don't include enough people05:57
NCommander(that sounds like the current one)05:57
persiaThe new one says we send mail to the ML, discuss it, discuss it in a MOTU Meeting, appoint a shepherd, and discuss more on the ML.05:57
StevenKI don't want to use Condorect. We aren't Debian, and devotee makes me cry.05:58
NCommanderI hate to say this, but since I failed as the shepard the last time around, maybe we should table this, and bring it up in a month?05:58
LaserJockwhat if we did similar to the leadership process05:58
persiaErm. NO.05:58
StevenKMainly because Manoj writes software like it's going to be installed on the space shuttle05:58
NCommanderTHere's only been one meeting since the new process went in, isn't it?05:58
NCommanderStevenK, I packaged devotee05:59
NCommanderStevenK, that was *fun*05:59
LaserJocki.e. somebody proposes something, wait a week, if 2 supports and no objections it stands05:59
StevenKNCommander: You poor guy05:59
slangasekStevenK: Bruce set a bad example, obviously ;P05:59
NCommanderThe hardest part was using baz05:59
persiaThis is a discussion item only: no decision need be made.  If there is strong enough support for reverting, someone can propose a reversion item (using the new process) to return to the old process.05:59
StevenKslangasek: Haha05:59
slangasekStevenK: there are other condorcet implementations besides devotee, though05:59
slangasek(hi, folks)05:59
persiaLaserJock: I like MOTU Meetings, rather than the ML.  I have time to prepare for the discussion, and I focus my attention.05:59
NCommanderhello Mr. Langasek05:59
persiaML threads seem a poor way to resolve disputes.05:59
* NCommander agrees with persia06:00
LaserJockpersia: well, that could be used06:00
* persia fails to specifically point out any other distributions for comparison06:00
LaserJocki.e. if there are objections after a week it goes to a MOTU Meeting where a vote resolves the dispute06:00
persiaI'd rather just discuss in a MOTU Meeting.06:00
* NCommander again agrees with persia 06:00
persiaFor the vast majority of items, there is consensus in the Meeting, and no need for a vote.06:00
LaserJockI don't like that though06:01
persiaThat said, my personal opinon isn't sufficient to change, and if others like the new process better, I'm not going to propose we revert06:01
LaserJockbecause you can get vastly different input depending on which meeting you propose at06:01
NCommanderWell, there is one thing, is it seems the old method failed on the teams issue, and the new one worked06:01
LaserJockseems apt to gaming and doesn't give a chance for everybody to participate06:01
NCommanderThat probably says a lot right there06:01
persiaNCommander: We didn't try the old one on the teams, and the new one also hasn't rendered a decision.  I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.06:02
NCommanderoh06:02
NCommander*ahem*06:02
* NCommander shuts up06:02
LaserJockIRC meetings would be great if it wasn't just 3-5 deciding for 80+06:02
persiaLaserJock: We only had a few cases where a decision in a MOTU Meeting was overruled in later discussion.  That's part of why minutes go to the ML.06:03
NCommanderMaybe make X amount of meetings mandatory for MOTUs :-P06:03
NCommanderThat would solve that issue06:03
LaserJockpersia: true06:03
persiaThe thing is, even on the ML, it's the same people who attend the meetings who comment on policy stuff.06:03
NCommanderWell, looking around06:03
LaserJockpersia: but I still feel like it's more of a "take ownership of your team thing" than a "we don't trust people" thing06:03
persiaI'm all for transparency, but I'm not happy about delays, nor using a process which remains undocumented after six weeks of use.06:03
NCommanderWe have four motus, Hobbsee who is kinda here, and myself as the only non-motu06:04
slangasekNCommander: I'm pretty sure that "we have too many MOTU and want a reason to expel some" is not the problem06:04
NCommanderslangasek, it was more motivation to get them in teams ;-)06:04
* NCommander wasn't serious06:04
LaserJockI'm not happy with the delays either06:04
NCommanderOTOH, that was the only way we got people to show up at company meetings at my fire company06:04
LaserJockwhich make mailing lists difficult06:04
persiaMany MOTU are doing things other than coordinating policy or participating in governance teams.  That is a good thing, as otherwise we wouldn't be getting work done.06:04
ajmitchI suspect that many MOTUs just don't care about such things06:05
NCommanderMost probably want to package/patch/do MOTU things then deal with the ugly necessity of politics06:05
persiaRight, which is understandable, fair, and probably a good thing.06:05
* LaserJock is stabbed in the heart by ajmitch ;-)06:05
LaserJockso we're down to a "rule by the interested"? :-)06:06
NCommanderWell, meetings are always open to all, and the list can always be used to respond, so it may not be the biggest issue that only a handful of people attend the meetings06:06
ajmitchLaserJock: isn't that usually the way?06:06
persiaThe worry is about a tyranny of the minority, which strikes me as less bad than a tyranny of the majority, as long as the minority is both interested and there is sufficient transparency that anyone who is affected by a given issue can address it.06:06
NCommanderTHat being said, I wouldn't have been aware of a meeting tonight if persia didn't say anything06:06
ajmitchpeople don't care until the rules get in the way06:06
persiaajmitch: Which is part of why we don't have that many rules06:07
persiaNCommander: Which is why I send announcements and poke people about meetings06:07
LaserJockpersia: if we had a culture where it was an OK thing to question the voting results and possibly escalate to the MC then I'm pretty happy with MOTU Meetings06:07
NCommanderpersia, you sent an annoucement to the list?06:07
* ajmitch couldn't bring himself to read through those long posts on the list about voting systems06:07
persiaLaserJock: I'd be happy to see such a culture.06:08
StevenKajmitch: Smack a little of -project06:08
persiaMind you, I think most things don't require escalation to MC, but just review by MOTU generally.06:08
LaserJockpersia: granted06:08
NCommanderIt would be easy to just attach a stinky signature at the end of each minutes that ("If you have issues or concerns about this, please feel free to post, we're not set in stone, etc.)06:09
* persia has an agenda to reduce the MC role in MOTU affairs, just for disclosure06:09
NCommanderBy explicately opening the floor to comments, and critisms, it does wonders for moral06:09
persiaNCommander: perhaps, but that ought be implied, no?06:09
* persia wants to avoid disclaimers, weaseling, etc.06:09
NCommanderpersia, I would have never questioned the minutes as posted06:09
NCommanderIt goes against everything else I've done, both in real life, and in Debian06:10
LaserJockNCommander: that's ok, you come from Debian ;-)06:10
NCommanderBy having a reminder, it lowers the bar significantly06:10
NCommanderBut its the same way for me in the fire service06:10
NCommanderI personally don't see the harm in having something like "As always, comments, or concerns can be freely discussed on the list"06:10
persiaI guess, I just think that any responsible party with interest ought state their views.06:11
NCommanderI'm no MOTU, and I don't always feel right posting on the list despite being experienced (IMHO), in working on these things06:11
persiaI'd rather that everyone always felt free to question things, rather than needing to have any disclaimers on *every* email to ubuntu-motu@06:11
LaserJockNCommander: we'll tell you when to shut up ;-)06:11
persia(or likely won't)06:12
NCommanderpersia, a lot of people will allow minor things to slide, so when a major issue that finally causes a stink, you also have any lingering resentment from previous issues that weren't brought up06:12
* NCommander again points to dpkg on d-devel06:12
StevenKubuntu-motu is NOT debian-devel06:13
NCommanderI'm aware of that06:13
persiaNCommander: Indeed, but that's part of why we don't have that many rules, and it's also one of the ways in which we're different than Debian: most of the minor things are discussed on IRC and resolved.06:13
StevenKPlease stop comparing the two :-)06:13
NCommanderdiff doesn't work on mailing lists :-/06:13
StevenKIf Mark Ray subscribes to -motu, I'm unsubscribing06:13
* NCommander runs06:13
StevenKHopefully, NCommander gets the joke.06:14
slangasek..twitch06:14
* NCommander watches it fly over his head, and land in LaserJock's eye]06:14
StevenKBwahaha06:14
persiaAnyway, back on topic.06:14
ajmitchStevenK: Debian builds character :)06:14
persiaSo, Do people like the new process?  Did they prefer the old process?06:15
StevenKOr leads to insanity06:15
NCommanderajmitch, they used to say that about child beatings too06:15
LaserJockpersia: old process is MOTU Meetings?06:15
persiaLaserJock: Yes, what we did before the shepherding guidelines.06:15
slangasekStevenK: you're not fooling us, we know you were like that before you were a DD06:15
StevenKpersia: We got sidetracked, put sticky on old and new?06:15
StevenKslangasek: Uh huh :-P06:16
StevenKThen I blame #linux/IRCNet06:16
persiaBah.06:16
NCommanderI personally think the new process needs documentation06:16
persiaOK.  Old process was to make decisions in MOTU Meetings.06:16
LaserJockwell, I like the old process better, but wasn't there a reason to to try the new one first?06:16
NCommanderLaserJock, I think it was the low turnout for meetings06:16
persiaNew process is undocumented, but involves sending mail to the ML, discussing in a MOTU Meeting and appointing a shepherd, and discussing in the ML again until the shepherd believes there is consensus.06:16
LaserJockas I recall the new process came out of concerns about the legitimacy of the the results of the old process06:17
NCommanderWell06:17
persiaThe reason to try the new process was that it was presented, and nobody disagreed with trying it.06:17
LaserJocki.e. 3 people deciding for the whole team06:17
NCommanderWhy don't we simply change it that issues was coming in the meeting are put to a vote06:17
NCommanderIt goes to the list06:17
NCommanderIf there are no objections, when the next meeting comes around, its made offical06:17
persiaNCommander: Because voting is bad.06:17
NCommanderpersia, normally I'd agree06:18
* persia much prefers compromise and consensus to voting on which is the least worst of two proposals06:18
* NCommander would point out the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter06:18
NCommanderThat arguement falls apart on MOTU :-)06:18
LaserJockpersia: true06:18
persiaThat said, I'm not sure we need such a complex method to establish consensus, but I'm not hearing that others share my view.06:18
NCommanderWhat happens if something gets deadlocked06:19
NCommanderAs a programmer, I want to avoid race conditions at all cost ;-)06:19
LaserJockin almost all cases where I've disputed a proposal with somebody the end result of consensus and compromise was better06:19
persiaNCommander: If it's truly deadlocked, it gets escalated to MC.06:19
persia(with either the NEW or the OLD process)06:19
NCommanderTHe shepard I assume can call the issue deadlocked06:19
LaserJocki.e. 2 heads are better than picking 1 ;-)06:20
persiaMaybe: there isn't any documentation of the new process beyond the initial proposal.06:20
NCommanderI personally like the new purposal06:20
NCommanderI say stay with it for now, properly document06:20
NCommanderAnd bring it up in a month for another review06:20
persiaSo, who is going to document it?  The last assigned party (ScottK) didn't.06:20
LaserJockhas the new process given us a single result so far?06:21
persiaLaserJock: No.06:21
NCommanderI have an allergic reaction to wikis (I was scared by wikipedia)06:21
NCommanderLaserJock, I'm not saying we stay with it, but lets document it, and try it at least until the resolution of the MOTU team issue06:21
persiaNCommander: That will be resolved before the next meeting anyway, right?06:21
LaserJockNCommander: and I say ditch as soon as we can ;-)06:21
StevenKNCommander: You sound like my manager.06:21
NCommanderI'm waiting for the end of the meeting to fire off the u-motu email06:22
ajmitchaha, dholbach arrives06:22
NCommanderStevenK, is that a good or bad thing06:22
LaserJockeverybody run!06:22
NCommanderI'm a firefighter, I'm used to taking charge, and working under pressure06:22
* ajmitch hides behind Hobbsee 06:22
dholbachhi ajmitch :)06:22
ScottKI'll document it.06:22
* ScottK couldn't sleep.06:22
StevenKNCommander: Neither, I'm just commenting "I have an allergic reaction to wikis" sounds like him06:22
LaserJockI just think we're way over engineering this thing06:22
StevenKScottK: You were so worried we were going to approve something you didn't like, weren't you?06:23
NCommanderStevenK, well, the one that powers wiki.ubuntu|debain.org06:23
NCommanderI love mediawiki06:23
LaserJockthe vast majority of "decisions" are non-controversial and easy to do06:23
ScottKStevenK: No.  I'll just ignore it if I dno't like it.06:23
StevenKNCommander: That's MoinMoin06:23
NCommanderStevenK, I loath it, its slow and bloated06:23
NCommandermediawiki FTW06:23
StevenKNCommander: Why, because it has more security issues than sendmail and firefox combined?06:24
LaserJock....wandering06:24
StevenKAnd isn't it *choke* PHP?06:24
ScottKI was gonna say ...06:24
ScottKEven less secure than the PHP it's built on and that's an achievement.06:24
StevenKSorry, NCommander made me charge06:24
LaserJockwell, I'm going to bed06:25
ScottKGood night.06:25
ScottKFundamentally we had the problem of time zone spread.06:25
ScottKIt isn't feasible to get everyone at every meeting.06:25
NCommanderI dunno, it always seems to be the same set of faces06:26
ScottKSo you either have to do two meetings, exclude people, or take it to the ML.06:26
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
LaserJockmy summary: voting stinks, be collaborative, be respectful, work out a rough consensus and go for it06:26
NCommanderAnd isn't being an insommic or having a sleep disorder a requirement to being an MOTU? ;-)06:26
NCommander...06:26
LaserJockgnight06:26
* NCommander breaks free of his Debian programming and agrees with LaserJock 06:26
ScottKI don't normally make this one but due to me not being able to sleep ...06:26
LaserJockNCommander: we're called MOTUHolics06:26
persiaRight.  So, getting back to the topic.06:26
* ScottK smacks NCommander in the head so he feels at home.06:26
persiaWhat I see is 1) ScottK will document the new process06:27
persia2) We'll review again in a month06:27
NCommanderScottK, that's nothing. I'm used to being **** raped by people on Debian06:27
persiaHas anyone said anything else of interst?06:27
persiaHobbsee: Can you [ACTION] ScottK on that?06:27
ScottKpersia: Where am I supposed to document this?06:27
* NCommander resists the urge to make a joke at persia's expense06:27
StevenKNCommander: Geez06:27
Hobbsee[action] ScottK will document the new process06:28
MootBotACTION received:  ScottK will document the new process06:28
persiaScottK: MOTU/Meetings would be a good place: as part of the instructions on adding something to the agenda.06:28
Hobbsee[action] We'll review again in a month06:28
MootBotACTION received:  We'll review again in a month06:28
ScottKHobbsee: And action persia to remind me again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.06:28
NCommanderStevenK, what? I run dak, I like pain. Normal abuse doesn't work on me06:28
persiaMaybe have the full process on the wiki somewhere, and a link.;06:28
NCommanderMy first real programming language was COBOL06:28
NCommanderAnd not just cobol, but Cobol on win32 ;-)06:28
ScottKBah.  Win32 didn't exist when I was doing COBOL.06:28
persiaSo, unless there's something else relevant, I'm done with my topic, and hand control back to the chair.06:29
StevenKScottK: Neither did LCDs06:29
NCommanderI'd like to bring up something06:29
StevenKOr the bible06:29
ScottKStevenK: Not even CDs.06:29
Hobbsee[action] persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.06:29
MootBotACTION received:  persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.06:29
NCommanderThe wiki says I should bring up any nominations for UUC here06:29
persiaErm, where?06:29
ScottKNCommander: That's MOTU Council, not here.06:29
NCommanderoh06:29
persiaWait, where on the wiki does it say this?06:30
StevenKMOTU Meeting != MOTU Council06:30
NCommanderSO no [vote] NCommander for UUC? ;-)06:30
NCommanderpersia, I misread06:30
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
persiaNo, no such vote.06:30
StevenK-106:30
StevenKAww06:30
NCommanderack06:30
* StevenK hides06:30
NCommander.... COBOL for .Net06:30
* NCommander stabs StevenK 06:30
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
* StevenK resists06:30
NCommanderTHE POWER OF COBOL COMPELS YOU06:31
persiaErm, this is the official meeting log, and will be reviewed by many...06:31
Hobbsee[topic] next meeting time06:31
MootBotNew Topic:  next meeting time06:31
NCommanderahem06:31
* NCommander hides06:31
ajmitchpersia: best that they see the true side of the UUC candidate06:31
StevenKHaha06:31
NCommanderI'm screwed06:31
ScottKNCommander: No.  That's Debian.  You already explained that to us.06:32
persiaNext meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC right?06:32
ScottKSounds right.06:32
NCommanderScottK, well, my NM application moved again, so I dunno06:32
Hobbsee[agreed] Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC06:32
MootBotAGREED received:  Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC06:32
* ajmitch should prepare himself mentally for RMS' visit in a week or so06:32
Hobbsee[topic] any other business06:33
persiaNCommander: Please take to #ubuntu-motu or elsewhere06:33
MootBotNew Topic:  any other business06:33
NCommanderNext REVU day?06:33
NCommanderTHere hasn't been one in awhile06:33
persiaThat's up to nixternal06:33
* ajmitch must leave now, farewell all06:33
NCommanderOk06:33
persiaMind you, someone else could volunteer to be REVU Coordinator: as nixternal did call for help.06:34
* NCommander would voluteer06:34
ScottKNCommander: Go see nixternal.06:34
NCommandernixternal, ping06:34
persiaNCommander: Try #ubuntu-MOTU at UTC-6 friendly times06:34
NCommanderYeah06:34
NCommanderOk, I've got nothing I can think of offhand06:35
* NCommander flips through the list to see if there was anything recently06:35
nxvli'm also interested on revu coordination06:35
nxvl:D06:35
persiaRight, people should go poke nixternal.06:36
persiaIs there anything else?  We're already well overtime.06:36
dholbachmore REVU Coordinators! :)06:36
StevenKSo an [action] people poke nixternal  ?06:36
nxvlStevenK: nah06:37
NCommanderYeah, sounds right06:37
Hobbsee[action] people poke nixternal06:37
MootBotACTION received:  people poke nixternal06:37
NCommanderActually06:37
nxvldholbach: hi!06:37
StevenKHaha06:37
persiaWell, there's only one REVU Coordinator, but no reason not to have a REVU team.06:37
Hobbsee[action] make nixternal stop using vista in the process06:37
MootBotACTION received:  make nixternal stop using vista in the process06:37
NCommanderds06:37
NCommander*ew06:37
NCommanderCoding on REVU from Vista should be against ubuntuwire TOS06:37
NCommanderBut for another time06:37
NCommanderBut I'd like the notion of a REVU team06:37
NCommanderOr more like absorbing revu-admins as an offical ubuntu-revu-team06:38
StevenKMaybe that can be expressed as something else06:38
StevenKLike admins of the UUC team06:39
StevenK(Just an idea)06:39
persiaREVU hacking and REVU Coordination are very distinct, and for a reason.06:39
NCommanderWell, define REVU coordination06:39
persiaIt's usually not the same people who want to make REVU better as push more applications through REVU (although there is overlap)06:39
persiaNCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Leaders06:39
* NCommander snaps fingers06:39
NCommanderThere is something I'd like to bring up for discussion, which is something ScottK's talked about for awhile, and that is packages are not getting back to Debian, and the MOTU's load on supporting keeps going up constantly06:40
NCommanderIf packages go upstream to debian, we can at least get some help from debian-qa, as well as their porting teams06:41
ScottKPersonally I think we ought to be more aggressive about pitching out unmaintained cruft.06:41
NCommanderVery few people run ubuntu popcon (I didn't even know it existed), so we don't have a great measure on package usage unless I'm mistaken06:41
StevenKScottK: ++06:42
NCommanderAnd there are packages, like my nrss one which hasn't any upstream releses because the author considers it feature complete, and there are no (known) lingering bugs06:42
ScottKIf it's not broken, I don't care if it's old.06:42
NCommanderdefine broken06:43
persiaNCommander: If you'd like to revive DCT, it would be greatly appreciated.06:43
NCommanderDCT?06:43
slangasekNCommander: er, we have half a million hits06:43
NCommander(or utubtu)06:43
persiaScottK: Mostly that needs some way of identifying which packages meet those criteria: if a list could be made public, we'd be in a much better position to chase them.06:43
ScottKI think Utunbu largely achieved it's goals.06:43
* Hobbsee goes afk for a while06:44
NCommanderWhy was it disbanded, if Utunbu was still around, I'd had someone in that group assist me getting my packages into the debian archives06:44
ScottKpersia: One think I think we need to do is look at Main --> Universe transitions and work on finishing the job in the next release.06:44
persiaNCommander: DCT is the companion group within Ubuntu that matches Utnubu within Debian.  Utnubu has done most of it's work, but DCT still needs to work on pushing stuff back cleanly.06:44
persiaScottK: Makes sense.06:44
ScottKNCommander: IIRC it was more about tool integration than moving packages.06:44
* ScottK notes, for example, that we still have slpheed-gtk1 and sylpheed packages.06:44
NCommanderWell, I think talking about the increasing number of ubuntu packages warrents a chat06:45
NCommanderMaybe during archive freezes is a good time to nominate packages for removal; and if no one steps up to update them, they go at the next release06:45
NCommanderAFAIK, there is no policy like that in place06:45
ScottKI also think we ought to be able to come up with a metric for one time only upload, buggy and so we get rid of it.06:45
ScottKNCommander: The policy now is more like if you're motivated you file a bug and convince an archive admin.06:46
NCommanderSOme packages maybe one time only, nrss over three years has gotten two releases06:46
ScottKRight, but not buggy.06:46
persiaOK.  We're now 45 minutes over.  Does this need to be discussed as MOTU Meeting, or can it be addressed in #ubuntu-motu later?06:47
NCommanderScottK, that's rather ad-hoc, but if was a goal for things to be done during a freeze, (like form a team of people who review a block of universe), and nominate for removes06:47
ScottKActually, as a matter of policy I'd prefer that individual maintainers be required for packages not in Debian.06:47
NCommanderpersia, its called progress, is there really much reason to stop chatting if things are getting done06:47
ScottKChair could endmeeting.06:47
persiaExcept that others may want to have a meeting, and we shouldn't do it here.06:47
NCommanderAnd Hobbsee's is AFK, we can't end the meeting :-)06:47
NCommanderThe point is mute until Hobbsee comes back06:48
ScottKpersia: What do you think about individual maintainers for packages not in Debian.06:48
persiaScottK: I'm very strongly against the idea.06:48
ScottKWhy?06:48
persiaBut I think we should have this discussion in #ubuntu-motu06:48
ScottKOK.06:48
persiaAsk me there, and I'll explain.06:48
NCommanderHobbsee, when you get this, please closemeeting06:49
Hobbsee[closemeeting]06:49
Hobbsee[close meeting]06:49
Hobbsee[endmeeting]06:49
persia#ndmeeting06:49
Hobbsee#endmeeting06:49
MootBotMeeting finished at 00:53.06:49
Hobbseethere we are!06:49
StevenKHeh06:49
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== emgent is now known as pint
=== pint is now known as emgent
=== vuntz is now known as vuntz|afk
steve555Hi everyone.12:34
nizarusboredandblogging: here ?15:00
boredandbloggingnizarus: hi15:41
nizarushi boredandblogging15:41
nizarusi need an advice if you a are free15:42
boredandbloggingnizarus: lets do it in #ubuntu-tn15:42
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Release Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
pittihi15:58
* slangasek waves15:59
cjwatsongood afternoon15:59
cjwatsonslangasek: I'm fighting (non-intrepid-relevant) fires at the moment, will mostly be lurking16:00
slangasekunderstood16:01
dendrobateso/16:01
slangasek'morning :)16:01
pgranerslangasek: morning16:02
slangasekok, doesn't appear that davidm is around; let's go ahead and get started without him then16:03
slangaseklool: (are you here, by chance?)16:03
slangasek#startmeeting16:04
MootBotMeeting started at 10:08. The chair is slangasek.16:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:04
* ScottK is here for motu-release (if needed).16:04
slangasek[TOPIC] outstanding items from last week16:05
MootBotNew Topic:  outstanding items from last week16:05
cjwatsondavidm sent me mail not that long ago16:05
slangasekI know the status of most of what was on that list, because they were assigned to me ;)16:05
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-3116:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-3116:05
slangasekthere's the list of action items from last week16:06
slangasekdendrobates: do you know the status of openldap 2.4.11?16:06
slangasekI had spoken with mathiaz about it and encouraged him to go ahead, but I don't know where he is with that16:06
dendrobatesslangasek: mathiaz is working on it, I am not sure if it will make it though.16:06
slangasekok16:07
slangasekI've spoken with pgraner about the kernel package split; cjwatson, I can brain dump to you later, see if there are any outstanding concerns, but the archive uninstallability list is certainly a lot cleaner now16:07
cjwatsonit is indeed, thanks16:08
slangasekand I talked to Riddell about Kubuntu bugs - we still have one outstanding for alpha-4 which he's working on16:08
pittiI worked hard on archive maintenance today, I think I'll get the list close to 0 for a416:08
pittiat least the bits which affect the CDs16:08
cjwatsonhow is component-mismatches doing? (maybe later)16:08
pittiin fact, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html already looks good enough for a416:09
slangasekpgraner sent me some kernel blurbs for the technical overview, which I haven't committed yet - I have several technical overview items that I still need to follow through on, but overall we seem to be making progress there compared with previous milestones16:09
pitticjwatson: I sorted out binary de/promotions and source/binary demotions, and some 10 source promotions, but it's a loooong list16:09
slangasekdendrobates: mathiaz hasn't given me anything to use as a blurb for samba 3.2; can you follow up with him?16:09
dendrobatesyes, he is on holiday, but I will ask him asap.16:10
slangasek"before Wednesday" is probably sufficient :)16:10
slangasek[ACTION] dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview16:10
MootBotACTION received:  dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview16:10
slangasekwe've made some progress on CD sizing, although entirely not in the area we were originally expecting to16:11
* bryce waves16:11
slangasekmy thanks to seb128, for uploading a new libgweather upstream that stuck out like a sore thumb :-)16:11
cjwatsonthe uncompressed Packages file bit got blocked by bug 25554516:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255545 in apt "requires uncompressed Packages files on CDs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25554516:11
pittithe recent seed cleanup was apparently completely eaten up by other noise :(16:11
mvoI can have a look at this bug today16:11
mvo(not promising to fix it today ;)16:11
cjwatsonmvo: yeah, it didn't look trivial16:12
cjwatsonor I might have just fixed it myself ...16:12
* mvo nods16:12
cjwatsonI think Luke looked into sound downsizing for himself, from what I saw in scrollback16:13
slangasekyes16:13
slangasekthat would still be a nice-to-have for alpha-4, but not critical16:13
seb128slangasek: thanks for doing the change to use gettext ;-)16:13
slangasekwe definitely don't want to get too close to the crunch time before landing the sound changes, since we're not sure that all the users of the sounds will handle different formats well16:14
cjwatsonjust pinged him on #ubuntu-devel16:14
slangasekthat's it for outstanding items; let's go around and see what everyone has cooking this week16:15
seb128GNOME sound effects are broken in ubuntu at the moment16:15
slangasek(mixing up the order a bit, based on external time constraints)16:15
seb128ah, it's about downsizing those, ignore me ;-)16:16
slangasekand btw, mdz sends his apologies for this week, he's traveling today16:16
slangasek[TOPIC] desktop team16:16
MootBotNew Topic:  desktop team16:16
slangasekseb128: but that sounds like an appropriate point to start on anyway :)16:16
slangasekpitti, seb128: anything that /should/ be regarded as a blocker for alpha-4 from your side, but isn't?16:17
pittinot from my side, AFAICS16:17
slangaseknote that the list of blockers is currently not very list-like: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=132216:17
slangasek[LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=132216:17
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=132216:17
pittithe gnome-keyring ssh bug is fixed (that was on last meeting's list)16:17
slangaseksaw that, thanks :)16:17
seb128the "reboot and halt doesn't work" is annoying but out of that no16:17
pittiand the shutdown/reboot failure is a more tricky thing16:18
pittibut since you can do it from gdm, it shouldn't be much of a problem16:18
pittiand suspend to disk/ram works, too :)16:18
slangasekyes, I believe the reboot/halt bug has been retargetted to alpha-516:19
pitticamera handling is back to sanity, and mounting of usb disks as well16:19
pittiso, I think we are ready for a416:19
pittiapport has been re-enabled by default, that might be something for the release notes16:19
seb128we have no sounds events as said before but I don't think that's a blocker16:20
pittistill no langpacks, but nothing we can do about it on our side :(16:20
slangasekpitti: tkamppeter has a pair of blueprints targetted for alpha-4; do you know if there's more work pending on those which may be disruptive between now and Thursday?16:20
pittiseb128: I consider that a bug fix ... :-P16:20
seb128;-)16:20
pittislangasek: the pdf printing workflow?16:20
pittislangasek: I talked about that with him, and it needs some packaging fixes16:20
pittislangasek: but whether it lands or not, it won't be disruptive16:20
slangasekprinterdriverautodownload, and pdf-as-standard-print-job-format16:21
slangasekok16:21
pittislangasek: ah, p-d-a-d won't make it16:21
slangasekhmm, I mean to nominate bug #25548516:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255485 in ghostscript "ghostscript has a 300% size increase" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25548516:21
pittipdf-print-format might land on Monday, dpeending on his progress of cleaning up the packaging16:21
pittisounds like spam email :)16:21
slangasekthere, now it's a bit more list-like :-)16:21
slangasek255485 is that ghostscript has now superseded gsfonts, but still depends on it, so now we have two copies of the fonts on the CD16:22
pittidoes tkamppeter know? sounds like his area16:22
slangasekyes, he's followed up to the bug16:22
slangasekpitti: can you coordinate with him to try to get that fixed for alpha-4?16:23
slangasek(or to postpone it, if we need to)16:23
pittislangasek: will do, assigning to him and will talk to him16:23
slangasekanything else on the desktop side?16:23
* pitti is fine16:24
pittiseb128: ?16:24
* seb128 is fine too16:24
slangasek[TOPIC] kernel team16:24
MootBotNew Topic:  kernel team16:24
slangasekpgraner: how are things in kernel space?16:24
pgranerBenC: has been working it this week, I'll let him respond, Ben?16:25
BenCkernel space is good16:25
BenCI plan an upload later tonight16:25
slangasekany ABI changes between now and Thursday?16:26
BenCslangasek: doesn't look like it at this point16:26
pittiBenC: do we already have 2.6.26.1, btw?16:26
BenCwe are pretty stable, and mainly in bug fix mode only now16:26
BenCpitti: .2 will be coming tonight16:26
slangasekcool16:26
pittiI guess nobody has a clue about that usplash mess, so we'll postpone that?16:26
SEJeffBenC, Will the intel gem kernel based mode setting be backported from .27?16:27
BenCI've been looking into the gfx weirdness with uvesafb, if that's what you mean16:27
BenCSEJeff: I'm looking into it (and I don't think it's in .27 anyway)16:27
slangasekpitti: it's aesthetically nasty, but doesn't need to block the alpha; we of course should have it fixed before beta...16:27
SEJeffActually you're right, but it will be in f10. Thanks16:27
BenCatleast not in -rc216:28
slangasek[TOPIC] foundations team16:28
MootBotNew Topic:  foundations team16:28
slangasekcjwatson:16:29
cjwatsonX input hotplugging is in, though the introduction was a little rough, breaking cursor key mappings in particular16:29
cjwatsonnetwork-manager 0.7 is in and working for me ;-)16:29
cjwatson(I think Timo has fixed the input hotplugging bug, BTW)16:30
slangasekwe should have viable desktop CDs now with NM 0.7 on them; time to get some coordinated testing of that?16:30
cjwatsonasac: could you mail ubuntu-devel-announce with directions for testing, please?16:30
pittin-m 0.7 WFM, too, although it breaks the RF kill switch16:30
cjwatsoncompcache is unlikely to make alpha 4 at this point; Oliver is off sick16:31
pittivery smooth upgrade, congrats asac! not a sigle network outage during upgrade, and proper conffile handling, too16:31
cjwatsonI would try to rescue it, but I'm looking at some of the more urgent irons Oliver had in the fire at the moment instead16:31
cjwatsonso I think we should defer that to alpha 516:31
cjwatsonotherwise nothing major, most of the big installer things are waiting for Evan to get back from vacation16:32
cjwatsonnote that neither Evan nor I will be available next week, so please try not to have any installer bugs kthxbye16:32
slangasek:-)16:32
cjwatsonI'm just shoving ubiquity 1.9.8 up the pipe now16:32
slangasekI would offer to stand in, but I'm not available either... :)16:33
cjwatsonnothing huge there, though16:33
cjwatsonthat's all from me16:33
slangasekthe milestoned-not-targetted bugs for alpha-4 seem to be mostly OOo, which calc has mentioned he expects to slip to alpha-516:33
pittiseems I'm the last man standing next week, with everyone else being at debconf? :-)16:34
cjwatsonoh, I'm not at debconf, I'm just away :)16:35
seb128pitti: I'll be here too16:35
slangasekpitti: not all at DebConf, but spread pretty thin :)16:35
* pitti hugs seb12816:35
* seb128 hugs pitti ;-)16:35
slangasek[TOPIC] server team16:35
MootBotNew Topic:  server team16:35
slangasekdendrobates: hi16:35
dendrobatesslangasek: we have no blockers.16:36
slangasekany exciting non-blockers that are being worked on between now and alpha-4?16:36
dendrobatesyes16:36
dendrobateslandscape-client16:36
dendrobatesnew likewise-open16:37
dendrobatestomcat6.x16:37
pittislangasek: do we still do long wiki pages for annoucing alphas, with the new features? (I need to collect those in this case)16:37
pittidendrobates: time to announce ecryptfs-utils as well, now that it's in main?16:38
slangasekdendrobates: are any of these landing before the alpha, and if so, what day?16:38
pittikirkland's pride16:38
cjwatsondendrobates: there's Dustin's boot-degraded-raid work, too? partly landed16:38
dendrobatespitti: yes. good idea.16:38
slangasekpitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex/TechnicalOverview; I owe some content there :)16:38
dendrobatescjwatson: yes moslty done.16:38
slangasekdendrobates: speaking of ecryptfs-utils - is that still blocking on me on the PAM side?  I'm making good progress on PAM and expect to have that land late next week, where pam module packages can start using the new framework16:39
kirklandslangasek: cjwatson: I'm hoping to have all of the degraded raid stuff in alpha4 for some real installation testing16:39
slangasekkirkland: nice :)16:39
cjwatsonkirkland: that's just blocking on this grub patch I need to review, right?16:39
slangasekthat's the patch for 33649?16:40
kirklandcjwatson: plus on more tiny debconf patch.... i'd like the installer to ask the user if they want to boot degraded, or not (with the default remaining NOT)16:40
cjwatsonslangasek: yeah16:40
kirklandcjwatson: i'm hoping you can identify someone that can review/sponsor that bit in your absence next week?16:41
cjwatsonkirkland: hmm, that sounds more delicate and might have to wait16:41
cjwatsonall the people I'd normally ask are away16:41
* kirkland yields16:41
slangasekI had some feedback on the 33649 patch, myself16:41
slangasekso I'll follow up with kirkland today16:41
pittislangasek: intrepid-device-permissions is also blocking on the PAM stuff, for the record16:41
cjwatsonslangasek: oh, thanks16:41
slangasekpitti: right16:41
cjwatsonkirkland: maybe we can sort that out face-to-face week-after-next16:42
asaccjwatson: sure. i wanted to wait for initial "hard-regression" reports before calling for testing.16:42
slangasekasac: well, if we don't test it /before/ alpha-4, we're sure to get more reports than we want /from/ alpha-4 :)16:42
asacslangasek: thats not what i ment16:43
asacslangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;)16:43
slangasekasac: ok :)16:43
slangasekdendrobates: anything else we need to cover with you?16:44
dendrobatesslangasek: I think we are done,16:45
slangasek[TOPIC] QA team16:45
MootBotNew Topic:  QA team16:45
henoNothing major on our radar16:45
slangasekheno: it looks like there's been some activity around the smoke testing, in spite of our image size problems?16:45
henowe have been smoketesting ISOs indeed16:46
henohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DailySmoke16:46
henothey now seem to work :)16:46
slangasek:)16:46
henodavmor2 uses dvd images I believe16:47
henodvd medium rather16:47
slangasekyou highlighted bug #253686 last week; davmor2 told me the other day that all of his regressions were now fixed, so maybe this needs followed up16:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 253686 in linux "Intrepid: Alternative cd fails to detect network regression" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25368616:47
slangasek[LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs16:48
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs16:48
henoI'll look at that with him16:49
slangasekas a general QA note (but not directed solely at heno :), the number of bugs targetted to intrepid as a whole seems to be going up... so anyone with time to kill... :)16:49
slangasekheno: anything else you can think of?16:49
henono. I have comments about the number of SRUs we are sing in Hardy still, but that's OT :)16:50
heno*seeing16:50
slangasekok16:51
slangasekmobile team not here; I assume that means we're happy with whatever we do for alpha-4 :-)16:51
slangasek[TOPIC] motu-release16:51
MootBotNew Topic:  motu-release16:51
slangasekScottK: hi, what's new in the universe?16:51
ScottKIt's pretty quiet.16:52
ScottKThe big topic recently has been cruft removal16:52
* slangasek nods16:52
ScottKOr: How do we keep Universe maintainable when it grows and we don't have more MOTU.16:52
pittiI saw some transitional uploads for NBS packages, thanks16:52
ScottKI think there is probably some process work around hinting to us that X is dropped to Universe, you may want to look at pushing it on out.16:53
slangaseksure16:53
ScottKREVU of new packages is very slow this cycle, so it'll probably be not a huge number of new packages for Intrepid.16:54
ScottKThat's a good way to get new contributors involved, so I have mixed feelings.16:55
ScottKThat's it really.16:55
slangasekpitti mentioned transitional rebuilds for NBS; is that going well generally, and is there coordination being done?16:56
slangasek(or does coordination need to be done?)16:56
ScottKI think so far it's been interested individuals.16:56
slangasekdo you think we would benefit from a concerted effort?16:57
ScottKI think we should do it earlier.16:57
slangasek(I think the answer is yes because I have to look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ once a week :)16:57
slangasek(or more often)16:57
* pitti works on that every Friday16:57
persiaHistorically universe NBS has been a post FF thing, although there are persistent efforts to make it a post DIF thing.16:57
pittibut I don't do many transitional uploads, I mainly look for stuff to kill16:58
ScottKPerhaps we should talk with ubuntu-qa about tools to expose the work needing done better.16:58
ScottKWe have many energetic young contributors that we need to point in a useful direction.16:58
slangasekok16:58
slangasekwe can probably discuss that further off-line?16:59
ScottKSure16:59
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)16:59
* pitti has to leave now, sorry; I'll read scrollback16:59
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)16:59
slangasekpitti: thanks :)16:59
slangasekok, I think we've covered most of the agenda already17:01
slangasekwe did have one carry-over from last week that didn't fit in time, and hasn't been dealt with out-of-band17:01
slangasek[TOPIC] scheduling 8.04.217:01
MootBotNew Topic:  scheduling 8.04.217:01
slangasekcjwatson: do you have time to talk about this right now and any issues you see with scheduling, or should we defer this to when you're tending fewer irons?17:02
cjwatsonthe general idea has been to do 8.04 point releases about once every six months, time-based17:02
cjwatsonhowever, I recognise that 8.04.1 + six months is right after Christmas, which may be a little awkward17:02
cjwatsonso my suggestion would be to aim for late January, and start paying attention to preparation around mid-November17:03
slangasekyes, I agree17:03
cjwatsonI don't expect the goals to be as ambitious as 8.04.117:03
cjwatsonmostly a roll-up, perhaps a few bits and pieces of hardware enablement, that kind of thing17:03
cjwatsonbut enough to keep it fresh17:04
cjwatsonhoovering up whatever bugs have been legitimately targeted to hardy in the meantime17:04
cjwatson(I phrased that very carefully ...)17:04
slangasekdo you think the 22nd or 29th would be the better target date?17:04
henowe've had quite a few SRUs come in after .1 http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html17:04
slangasekI lean towards the 22nd, I think 3 weeks after New Years should be long enough to ramp back up17:05
henoso unless we get that amount again I guess most of the work is being done now in fact17:05
cjwatsonI have a to-do item to send out a note to folks that .1 was a special case, and they don't need to upload quite everything they do to hardy now thank-you-very-much17:05
cjwatson22nd is fine by me17:05
heno22nd wfm as well17:06
cjwatsonbut heno should definitely sign off since he has most of the late-stage work17:06
cjwatsonok17:06
sbeattie22nd should be fine by me as well17:06
slangaseksold then17:06
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar17:06
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar17:06
slangasekanything else for the meeting?17:07
slangasek("AOB"?)17:07
persiaI'm curious if universe flavours should send members to represent here, or do so through motu-release.17:08
slangasekI'm happy to have universe flavors represented directly17:08
loolslangasek: Hmm sorry, I was told the meeting was at 16 UTC, not 1517:09
persiaOK.  I'll poke folk about that.  Presumably they should wave at the beginning of the meeting?17:09
slangasekI've unfortunately found it difficult sometimes to get in touch with xubuntu/ubuntustudio/mythbuntu folks in a timely manner in the run-up to milestones17:09
loolGlad persia was around17:09
persialool: I didn't represent mobile though.17:09
slangasek[TOPIC] mobile team17:10
MootBotNew Topic:  mobile team17:10
slangaseklool: we're not over time ye, go ahead :)17:10
loolNothing new ot report :-)17:10
slangaseks/ye/yet/17:10
loolI just came back from paternity leave17:10
ScottKThen I imagine there's something new.17:10
loolWe discussed today the possibility to replace the hildon stack entirely for intrepid, but this seemed very risky17:10
slangasekpersia: yes, having them wave at the beginning of the meeting would be helpful17:10
loolSo the preferred plan is to stick to hildon stuff until it's complete then prepare a replacement17:11
loolSo we shouldn't have to request particular exceptions like we did in the previous cycles; we should honor all freezes hopefully this time around :-)17:12
loolThat's about all I can think of concerning release matters17:12
slangasek\o/17:12
slangasekok, thanks for the update17:12
slangasekany /other/ other business, then?17:12
slangasek#endmeeting17:13
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:17.17:13
slangasekthanks, folks!17:13
loolThanks!17:14
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 22 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU
effie_jayxboredandblogging, ping18:33
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