[00:51] <mrooney> Well hello, then.
[00:52] <nellery> so I'm guessing ubottu is correct today?
[00:53] <Joeb454> lol well I thought it was tomorrow...
[00:53] <pedro_> yeah the 00:00 UTC tends to confuse people
[00:54] <nellery> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1614
[00:54] <Joeb454> well given I'm from the UK, it's even more confusing
[00:55] <effie_jayx> 5 minutes
[00:58] <nellery> good luck to all applicants!
[00:58] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[00:58] <effie_jayx> vorian,  ping
[00:59] <Joeb454> ty
[00:59] <Old_Soldier> thanks nick :)
[00:59] <vorian> ahoy!
[00:59] <effie_jayx> vorian,  ready for meeting time
[00:59] <pedro_> ahoj !
[01:00] <gQuigs> ty
[01:00] <mrooney> nellery: thanks :)
[01:00] <jacob> hallo all
[01:00] <effie_jayx> hey all
[01:00] <mrooney> hello
[01:00]  * emmajane waves
[01:00] <gQuigs> hi
[01:00] <Joeb454> o/
[01:01] <tedg> hello
[01:01] <pedro_> Welcome to the Americas Board meeting everybody!
[01:01] <vorian> it may be a min or two while we round up a couple more people :)
[01:01]  * nellery says hi
[01:01] <pedro_> in the meantime, the list of applicants can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[01:01]  * Joeb454 says hi to all
[01:01] <pedro_> so yeah let's wait a bit
[01:02] <pedro_> is Caesar around?
[01:03] <vorian> hi _MMA_
[01:03] <_MMA_> yo
[01:04] <vorian> ok, while we wait, applicants please prep an intro, so we can speed things up a bit :)
[01:04] <_MMA_> So who's chairing this thing?
[01:04] <vorian> you!
[01:04] <pedro_> exactly
[01:04] <pedro_> ;-)
[01:04] <_MMA_> nope.
[01:05] <pleia2> hello
[01:05] <vorian> heya pleia2 :)
[01:05] <vorian> i'll do it then
[01:06] <vorian> shall we start?
[01:06] <effie_jayx> vorian,  yep
[01:06] <effie_jayx> let's get this one going
[01:06] <vorian> great!
[01:07] <vorian> paultag: looks like you're up (unless Caesar goes by a new nick now)
[01:07] <paultag> mkay
[01:07] <paultag> Hey all, I am PaulTag ( Paul Tagliamotne ), and I am a Linux user since 2003, have dabbled in Linux Programming since 2004.
[01:07] <paultag> I have been employed as a Software Engineer, working with Linux since 2007. I have switched to Ubuntu circa 7.10, and have been in the Beginners Team since September. I would love to become MOTU, and feel like Ubuntu is the Distro for me, and I would love to do anything I can.
[01:07] <paultag> my wiki is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Paultag#preview
[01:07] <paultag> ( heh, minus #preview )
[01:08] <paultag> also, Tagliamonte, sorry, I am typing too fast :)
[01:08] <vorian> :)
[01:09] <vorian> paultag: tell me a bit about what you are doing on the MOTU track
[01:10] <paultag> vorian: I have been working with application design, and working on actually writing software for Linux, but as of yet, I do not have the resouces to take it further
[01:10] <paultag> vorian: I can package as well as code in several languages, and I am a CS major currently in college
[01:11] <vorian> great :)
[01:11] <vorian> i noticed you are a DD
[01:11] <paultag> vorian: I am not
[01:11] <paultag> vorian: this was for our internal OS
[01:11] <paultag> vorian: it was based off of Debian
[01:11] <vorian> might want to change that line on your wiki page then :)
[01:12] <pleia2> paultag: I see your general foss work is very strong (bravo!), can you explain more about what you do specifically for ubuntu, I see your testimonials are primarily from your work with the beginners forum
[01:12] <pwnguin> vorian: are you looking at the right wiki?
[01:12] <effie_jayx> paultag, to add to pleia2's Q, please do elaborate in the projects (Sabre and Qube)
[01:13] <paultag> pleia2: indeed -- I really love the Distro that is Ubuntu, and I really would love to further the Distro, as well as contribute upstream
[01:13] <vorian> pwnguin: ah, no
[01:13] <paultag> Sabre and Qube:
[01:13] <paultag> Sabre was a plugin that I decided to write for amaroK
[01:14] <paultag> it watches for a Bluetooth enabled device, then the computer reacts ( i.e. Music Stops, Marked away on IRC, as well as custom commands ) and is supported across all DEs
[01:14] <Joeb454> :)
[01:14] <paultag> Joeb454: was active on Sabre as well :)
[01:14] <pedro_> paultag: may you tell us a bit about your work with the Ubuntu Beginners team and what are your future plans for it?
[01:15] <paultag> pedro_: I have been active in the team, and plan to continue my work as long as I can, the Team leader bodhi_zazen is here, as well as some of the team mates
[01:15] <paultag> as well
[01:15] <effie_jayx> paultag,  apart from the work in the forums have you had any contact with other ubunteros in your are... (LoCo work?)
[01:16] <paultag> effie_jayx: yes, but I am at college -- I plan to get active after I move back to MA
[01:16] <paultag> RE: Beginners Team:
[01:16] <bodhi_zazen> paultag, is quite active and respected in the BT, he has assisted with education, of us all in fact, particularly with coding and packaging
[01:16] <effie_jayx> paultag,  great
[01:16] <pleia2> paultag: link to your forum user page?
[01:16] <paultag> I am heading the Education group, to help members, if they need it within the group
[01:16] <paultag> pleia2: its not very active, hold on
[01:16] <paultag> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=500613
[01:17] <pleia2> paultag: 64 posts?
[01:17] <paultag> pleia2: yes, most of my work is helping the team behind the scene
[01:17] <SEJeff> Sorry am I late? I thought the meeting was tomorrow for ubuntu membership
[01:18] <paultag> pleia2: i.e. issues that are not a quick hit this button
[01:18] <pwnguin> SEJeff: it's tomorrow in UTC =/
[01:18] <pleia2> paultag: gotcha, can you explain some of the work you've been doing behind the scenes?
[01:18] <SEJeff> pwnguin, Ok just making sure
[01:18] <pwnguin> menaing, right now
[01:19] <SEJeff> Gotcha
[01:19] <paultag> pleia2: sure, the Education group that I am heading allows our team mates to get and further their education across almost all the OS, we have a few mentors that help with anyone who requests it
[01:19] <paultag> pleia2: as well, we are working on a new structure for the team that I am working on
[01:19] <paultag> pleia2: organization, that is
[01:20] <pleia2> paultag: any kind of wiki/documentation you can point us to of this project in progress?
[01:20] <paultag> pleia2: sure, hold on a second
[01:20] <paultag> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/Structure
[01:20] <paultag> pleia2: I have worked closely with Rocket2DMn on this
[01:20] <Rocket2DMn> o/ hi
[01:21] <effie_jayx> paultag,  I feel your FOSS work is great
[01:21] <vorian> anyone here to cheer for paultag?
[01:21] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[01:21] <Rocket2DMn> WOOT WOOT paultag !
[01:21]  * Old_Soldier cheers for paul
[01:21] <bodhi_zazen> even if he is a geek, LOL
[01:21] <paultag> hahah, thanks bodhi_zazen :)
[01:22]  * Joeb454 cheers
[01:22] <Joeb454> I did on the wiki though
[01:22] <effie_jayx> paultag,  I do believe the beginner's team is a very important Ubuntu work...
[01:22] <paultag> effie_jayx: as do I :)
[01:22] <vorian> I'm happy to give my +1
[01:22] <effie_jayx> +1
[01:23] <pleia2> +1
[01:23] <vorian> (and encourage some /join #kubuntu-devel action)
[01:23] <pedro_> a +1 from me also
[01:23] <_MMA_> +1
[01:23] <paultag> vorian: noted
[01:23] <vorian> great :)
[01:23] <vorian> welcome aboard
[01:23] <paultag> :) Thank You all!
[01:23] <bodhi_zazen> WooT
[01:23] <pleia2> congrats paultag :)
[01:23] <nellery> congrats paultag!!!
[01:23] <Rocket2DMn> congrats paultag !
[01:23] <jacob> congrats paultag!
[01:23] <Old_Soldier> Woot! Gratz paultag
[01:23] <pedro_> congratulations paultag, welcome ;-)
[01:23] <Joeb454> congrats paultag
[01:23] <SEJeff> Nice work paultag !
[01:24] <emmajane> congrats paultag
[01:24] <paultag> ty all!
[01:24] <vorian> SEJeff: you're up!
[01:24] <nekohayo> +1
[01:24] <SEJeff> Ok well my name is Jeff
[01:24] <effie_jayx> paultag,  congratulations and may this also be a commitment to more work with that very importan team..
[01:24] <SEJeff> I'm a Systems Administrator by trade, geek by choice
[01:24] <ds305> way to go paultabg
[01:25] <SEJeff> Ubuntu fits my philosophy of making Linux appeal to the masses
[01:25] <SEJeff> Not everyone in the world can afford to Pay for windows or OS X. They should have something just as good or better
[01:25] <SEJeff> That is why I contribute to Ubuntu
[01:25] <SEJeff> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffSchroeder/Contributions
[01:25] <SEJeff> Most of my contributions are more towards what I do as a job
[01:25]  * Maddeth is here to cheer but was afk when asked
[01:26] <SEJeff> Like the recent patches for getting ovirt (http://ovirt.org) to work on Ubuntu or the really exciting new filesystem btrfs
[01:26] <SEJeff> It had issues with apparmor that have now been fixed
[01:26] <SEJeff> And I've worked on security in Ubuntu a bit with kees, trulux
[01:26] <SEJeff> ANd I have a company meeting :-/
[01:26] <SEJeff> Have an emergency and have to run
[01:26] <SEJeff> sorry
[01:27] <vorian> SEJeff: ok, we may be here for a while
[01:27] <pedro_> no worries
[01:27] <vorian> good luck
[01:27] <pedro_> take your time
[01:27] <SEJeff> maybe 20 minutes?
[01:27] <SEJeff> brb
[01:27] <pleia2> sure
[01:27] <nekohayo> SEJeff has my vote, he's an awesome sysadmin and teacher :)
[01:27] <pleia2> mine too
[01:27] <pleia2> hehe
[01:27] <pleia2> mrooney?
[01:27] <vorian> we'll postpone him for now ...
[01:27] <mrooney> Okay, hello everyone!
[01:27] <mrooney> I'm Michael Rooney (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeRooney). I have been a bugsquad member for about a year, and a bugcontrol member for 6 months or so (https://launchpad.net/~michael).
[01:28] <mrooney> I triage incoming bugs in Ubuntu every day, as well attempt to push progress forward in areas I find important (typically from a QA/Usability standpoint).
[01:28] <mrooney> I would like to improve the "out of the box" experience of Ubuntu for beginners and advanced users alike, and plan to get into packaging/development soon!
[01:29] <mrooney> So that I can extend my triaging work into directly fixing issues :)
[01:29] <pleia2> excellent work, mrooney
[01:29] <pedro_> yay!
[01:29] <mrooney> I also wrote and maintain EeeBotu, the bug announcing bot in #ubuntu-bugs-announce, which has been going steady for over 2 months.
[01:29] <vorian> yes, much love
[01:29]  * pedro_ hugs mrooney for that
[01:29] <pleia2> (also, RIT - w00t!_
[01:29] <pwnguin> is the source and config available for that bot?
[01:30] <nellery> I support mrooney 100% for membership... I often run into him while triaging, and he deserves membership very much!
[01:30] <mrooney> pwnguin: I have yet to license it, but I plan to make an EeeBotu wiki page
[01:30] <mrooney> which would have the source, status, and other useful information
[01:30] <pleia2> looking forward to that :)
[01:31] <vorian> wow, your work speaks for itself. awesome work
[01:31] <mrooney> thanks!
[01:31] <pedro_> i don't need to ask anything, seriously
[01:31] <vorian> I'm more than happy to give my +1
[01:31] <pwnguin> mrooney: i almost wonder if perhaps a bzr branch would help keep bot infrastructure in the hands of the community rather than individuals. but thats not an issue for membership, clearly ;)
[01:31] <effie_jayx> I don't either
[01:31] <effie_jayx> +1
[01:31] <pleia2> me too +1
[01:31] <pedro_> a big +1 from me !
[01:32] <mrooney> pwnguin: I considered a launchpad project but it seems overkill, though it would be nice to allow others to commit, it is probably a wise idea
[01:33] <mrooney> No questions, anyone? Haha
[01:33] <effie_jayx> I am happy with your work :D
[01:33] <effie_jayx> mr_pouit,  it is unanimous :D
[01:33] <nellery> congrats mrooney!!
[01:33] <effie_jayx> mrooney,  welcome aboard
[01:33] <pleia2> congrats mrooney :)
[01:33] <mrooney> thanks so much everyone!
[01:33] <vorian> welcome aboard mrooney :)
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> congrats mr_pouit
[01:33] <pedro_> yeah congrats mrooney keep up the awesome work ;-)
[01:33]  * Old_Soldier cheers for mrooney 
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> oops, lol
[01:33] <emmajane> congrats mrooney
[01:33] <_MMA_> +1
[01:33] <effie_jayx> mrooney,  keep up the great work
[01:33] <bodhi_zazen> congrats mrooney
[01:33] <_MMA_> Sorry
[01:34] <pleia2> Old_Soldier: you're up!
[01:34] <vorian> oh noes, it's Old_Soldier!
[01:34] <_MMA_> (getting kids ready for bed)
[01:34]  * Old_Soldier grins
[01:34]  * bodhi_zazen hides
[01:34] <Old_Soldier> Greetings everyone, my real name is Charles Davis. I'm 42 years old and I live in Oklahoma.
[01:34] <Old_Soldier>  I am a member of the Ubuntu Forums Staff and part of the Beginner Team. My major focus as a staff member is to give friendly helpful support while maintaining the peace on the forums. I'm also active in the Ubuntu Documentation Students team and The Ubuntu Wiki Team on LP.
[01:34] <Old_Soldier> My future goals are to become a Documentation committer and eventually become a MOTU contributer.
[01:34] <Old_Soldier> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Old_soldier  lp:https://launchpad.net/~oldsoldier-gmail forum profile:http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=487991
[01:35] <jacob> bug cheers for Old_Soldier. he's obviously been a major help to the Beginners team, and definitely a welcome addition to the forum staff. :)
[01:35]  * vor1 gives Old_Soldier 800% support
[01:35] <jacob> s/bug/big/. >.<
[01:35]  * paultag cheers for Old_Soldier
[01:36] <paultag> one of the few on the team everyone respects
[01:36]  * nellery cheers for Old_Soldier for his work towards the Doc Team!
[01:36] <effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  you have quite a fan base...
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> Old_Soldier is wise and respected by the entire team
[01:36] <effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  what has taken you so long to get membership?
[01:36] <bodhi_zazen> He brings maturity and wisdom, he has my full support
[01:36] <Joeb454> I give my +1 for Old_Soldier, he's helpful with both Ubuntu & otherwise
[01:36] <Rocket2DMn> A big +1 for Old_Soldier 's expansion into other areas of Ubuntu
[01:36] <pleia2> Old_Soldier: thank you for providing such an extensive wiki page, this is fantastic :)
[01:36] <vorian> Old_Soldier: been very busy with bugs i see
[01:36] <effie_jayx> ok
[01:36] <Old_Soldier> effie_jayx: I felt i wasn't prepared but bodhi_zazen convinced us to apply
[01:37] <effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  why not prepared? what work do you think is needed to be a member?
[01:37] <effie_jayx> and what have you done for the Ubuntu project as a whole?
[01:38] <Old_Soldier> effie_jayx: I felt that I wanted to participate more with the doc team before I applied.
[01:38] <Old_Soldier> I have contributed some patches in the documents and have been working with other BT members on the Wiki
[01:39] <Old_Soldier> I've also started an experimental project to put Ubuntu forums tutorial in yelp format for offline use
[01:39] <effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  right...
[01:39] <effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  would you consider your work with other people in hte ubuntu prject not enough then ;) ?
[01:39] <pedro_> Old_Soldier: that's nice, do you have some code around for doing that?
[01:39] <vorian> btw, the BT documentation is the best (unexpected) side effect of the BT
[01:40] <vorian> i am really happy to see how much documentation comes from the BT
[01:40] <bodhi_zazen> thanks vorian
[01:40] <Old_Soldier> pedro_: i have a bzr branch for the docbooks
[01:40] <Old_Soldier> it's similar to the ubuntu-doc branch I also have the binaries and source available in PPA
[01:41] <pedro_> Old_Soldier: cool! do you have it hosted at lp or just in your disk?
[01:41] <pedro_> niiice, what's the name?
[01:41]  * pedro_ excited
[01:41] <Old_Soldier> boucft. a moment and i'll linky you
[01:41] <vorian> I'm happy to give my +1
[01:41] <pleia2> +1 from me too
[01:41] <vorian> well done Old_Soldier
[01:41] <pedro_> woohoo
[01:41] <pleia2> very good work Old_Soldier :)
[01:41] <pedro_> yes a +1 from me, thanks for the contributions Old_Soldier
[01:41] <effie_jayx> +1 from me Old_Soldier
[01:41] <Old_Soldier> https://launchpad.net/boucft
[01:42] <pedro_> and thanks for the link ;-)
[01:43] <_MMA_> +1
[01:43] <pedro_> great, welcome aboard Old_Soldier!
[01:43] <vorian> welcome aboard Old_Soldier :)
[01:43] <jacob> congratulations Old_Soldier!!!
[01:43] <paultag> Old_Soldier: Congrats!!! You Deserve it!
[01:43] <bodhi_zazen> Woot
[01:43] <emmajane> congrats Old_Soldier
[01:43] <nellery> congrats Old_Soldier!
[01:43] <Old_Soldier> :) thanks everyone I appreciate the support
[01:44] <Rocket2DMn> congrats Old_Soldier , much deserved!
[01:44] <vor1> Old_Soldier does indeed deserve it
[01:44] <pedro_> is Hellow around?
[01:44] <pedro_> tick tack tick tack
[01:44] <Rocket2DMn> no hes not, sorry
[01:44] <effie_jayx> Hello Hellow?
[01:44] <pedro_> ok no worries
[01:44] <pleia2> Joeb454: you're up!
[01:44] <vorian> Joeb454: you're up
[01:44] <vorian> :)
[01:44] <Joeb454> oh no :P
[01:44] <effie_jayx> Joeb454: you are up
[01:45] <pedro_> no? let's skip him then!
[01:45] <Joeb454> OK my wiki page, LP page & Forums profile
[01:45] <pedro_> just kidding
[01:45] <Joeb454> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Joeb454
[01:45] <Joeb454> https://edge.launchpad.net/~joeb454
[01:45] <Joeb454> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=373057
[01:45] <Joeb454> and I'm Joeb454. 19 & from the UK - I don't sleep - clearly. And I'm one of the new forum staff members, I enjoying helping the new people feel welcomed into Ubuntu & it's community. The forums are - in my opinion - a fantastic resource for newcomers and veterans to Ubuntu, and I try and help wherever possible
[01:45] <bodhi_zazen> Joeb454, is a machine
[01:45] <bodhi_zazen> He is going to wear out LaRoza, lol
[01:45] <Joeb454> lol, let me finish pasting bodhi_zazen, though thanks :)
[01:45] <Joeb454> Currently, my main area of contribution is the Ubuntu Forums, though I also promote Ubuntu within my local community whenever I can - I've assisted a few of people from University to switch. As well as this, I've recently been trying to get more involved with Launchpad Answers as well as the Forums.
[01:45] <Joeb454> In future I hope to be able to contribute more directly to Open-Source and the software it spawns - i.e. by programming and patching bugs etc, though that will likely come after University, when I should hopefully have a little more time.
[01:45] <jacob> bodhi_zazen: he is ;)
[01:45] <Joeb454> ty jacob
[01:45] <jacob> Joeb454 is another awesome addition to the forum staff. always willing to go out there and help out. big props.
[01:46]  * vor1 thinks Joeb454 is trying to supplant LaRoza as Head Borg.
[01:46] <Old_Soldier> he will!
[01:46] <Joeb454> shh!!
[01:46]  * st33med duct tapes Old_Soldier's mouth to stop secret
[01:46] <vorian> Joeb454: so, what is the best part of contributing for you?
[01:47] <Joeb454> personally, i love contributing on the forums, because I get that sense of knowing I've helped somebody
[01:47] <paultag> side note: <plug> Joeb454: stops at nothing to contribute to a project -- he worked on Sabre with me, and he really pushed the project to where it is today </plug>
[01:48] <Joeb454> though as I enjoy programming, I'd like to do more devel stuff, my experience with paultag working on sabre only strengthened my desire to contribute that way
[01:48] <Joeb454> I just don't have enough time currently (or programming skill, I'm working on both though)
[01:48] <pleia2> Joeb454: development looks to be a more long term goal - goals for the short term? continued work in the forums I'd hope :) anything else?
[01:48] <Joeb454> yes definitely forums
[01:49] <Joeb454> I'm keeping a keen eye on the Beginners Team as it goes from strength to strength
[01:49] <Joeb454> I feel it's a great part of the community, working to help newcomers feel welcomed into it
[01:49] <vorian> awesome
[01:49] <Joeb454> i think it is :)
[01:50]  * pleia2 makes note to talk to the Beginners Team about Ubuntu Classroom
[01:50] <pleia2> does the beginners team have a mailing list?
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> BT want classroom
[01:50] <Joeb454> +1 bodhi_zazen
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> we are starting with an internal education program
[01:50] <Joeb454> and pleia2 I don't think it worked out when we tried it
[01:50] <pedro_> Joeb454: regarding your work within your loco team, may you tell us a bit of it? what do you consider your top contribution to the team?
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> as it comes on line we want to contribute to classroom too
[01:50] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: Ubuntu Classroom is a more centralized program for all teams, we'll have to talk :)
[01:50] <bodhi_zazen> :)
[01:51] <Joeb454> pedro_, I'm not currently active in it, though I'm looking into it
[01:51] <bodhi_zazen> BT is not ready ... yet, but interested
[01:51] <pwnguin> Joeb454: there was a recent debacle about certain motherboards, that got way out of hand; how might we better educate new Ubuntu users about the Code of Conduct?
[01:51] <Joeb454> I do however recommend Ubuntu to a lot of people when I think it would suite their needs
[01:51] <pedro_> Joeb454: can i ask why not? not enough time?
[01:51] <Joeb454> pedro_, yes mainly
[01:51] <pedro_> alright
[01:51] <Joeb454> pwnguin, get them to read it, and gently remind them about it via some sort of PM
[01:52] <Joeb454> pedro_, I do help people with Ubuntu whenever I get the time, I guided a friend through the entire install via PM the other week :P
[01:53] <vorian> that sounds like a treat, very impressive
[01:53] <Joeb454> lol, he thought it was awesome
[01:53] <pleia2> +1 from me - keep up the great work Joeb454 :)
[01:53] <vorian> my vote is the same as _MMA_'s
[01:53] <vorian> +1
[01:54] <pedro_> haha
[01:54] <vorian> :)
[01:54] <Joeb454> pleia2, I'll try
[01:54] <pedro_> +1 from here
[01:54] <pleia2> (oh, and you're allowed to sleep sometimes ;))
[01:54] <Joeb454> thanks :)
[01:54] <Joeb454> pleia2, I call it "recharging" though
[01:54] <vorian> (mma did give his +1, but had to leave)
[01:54] <Joeb454> oh ok cool
[01:55] <effie_jayx> +1 from me too
[01:55] <Joeb454> \o/
[01:55] <vorian> welcome aboard Joeb454 :)
[01:55] <jacob> congrats Joeb454! :)
[01:55] <paultag> Joeb454: Congrats!!!!
[01:55]  * Old_Soldier thumps Joeb454 on the back Grats Joe!
[01:55] <Rocket2DMn> congratulations Joeb454 !
[01:55] <Joeb454> thanks a lot :)
[01:55] <pleia2> welcome Joeb454!
[01:55] <emmajane> congrats Joeb454
[01:55] <Joeb454> except Old_Soldier, that hurt
[01:55] <nellery> congrats Joeb454!
[01:55] <Joeb454> ty :)
[01:55] <pleia2> gQuigs: you now! :)
[01:56] <gQuigs> My names is Bryan Quigley, and I have been active in the NJ Loco Team since 2006, volunteering at practically every event.
[01:56]  * yoda_van cheers for gQuigs 
[01:56] <harding> I cheer for gQuigs.  He's made significant contributions to the NJ Ubuntu LoCo; he's been a member of the team longer than anyone else and we'd be much less of a team, or maybe not a team at all, without him.
[01:56] <vorian> Joeb454: nice user title btw
[01:56] <bodhi_zazen> wOOt
[01:56] <Joeb454> I may disappear soon, UK time etc.
[01:56] <Joeb454> and ty vorian
[01:56] <gQuigs> I mainly try to bring Ubuntu and FLOSS in general to the local community as best I can, with a side of triaging and lot's of ideas.
[01:56] <gQuigs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gquigs
[01:56] <gQuigs> https://launchpad.net/~gquigs
[01:57] <pleia2> gQuigs volunteered at the Trenton Computer Festival Ubuntu table while I just wandered around and spent all my money :) he does great
[01:57] <vorian> gQuigs: farmers market? what was that like?
[01:58] <yoda_van> haha
[01:58] <harding> :)
[01:58] <paultag> haha
[01:58] <gQuigs> that was interesting
[01:58] <pleia2> there are pictures!
[01:58] <vorian> i'm sure it was :)
[01:58] <pedro_> gQuigs: do you have some photos we can see from the last event?
[01:58] <gQuigs> sure
[01:58] <mrooney> I just want to add that I really appreciate many of gQuigs brainstorm ideas!
[01:59] <gQuigs> pedro_: define last event?
[01:59] <harding> Farmer's Market: http://www.joeterranova.net/photos/September_Columbus/index.html
[01:59] <harding> Last event, a LAN Party: http://www.joeterranova.net/2008/04/14/15_hours_in_my_basement/
[02:00] <pedro_> gQuigs: last event you participate in with your loco team
[02:00] <pedro_> ah nice, looking
[02:00]  * vorian wishes irssi was playing nice atm
[02:00] <pwnguin> gQuigs: do you feel that defectivebydesign's approach is in keeping with the code of conduct?
[02:01] <gQuigs> that may have been TCF 08
[02:01] <gQuigs> but gQuigs has a very bad memory
[02:02] <effie_jayx> I find this participation very interesting... good LoCo work
[02:02] <gQuigs> pwnguin: interesting question, which part of the CoC do you think it violates
[02:02] <pwnguin> well, lets take the specific example of booking genius bar time
[02:02] <pwnguin> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/apple-challenge
[02:02] <effie_jayx> pwnguin,  could you discuss this out of a meeting ;)
[02:03] <pwnguin> sure.
[02:03] <effie_jayx> pwnguin,  thanks ;)
[02:03] <vorian> gQuigs: i'm happy to give you my +1
[02:04] <effie_jayx> gQuigs,  for your LoCo involvement and brave work at the Farm Expo ;D
[02:04] <gQuigs> pwnguin:  I think it is fully covered under the CoC
[02:04] <effie_jayx> +1
[02:04] <pleia2> +1 from me, excellent loco work gQuigs :)
[02:05] <pedro_> yeah a +1 here also, keep the loco work rocking
[02:05] <vorian> welcome aboard gQuigs :)
[02:05] <gQuigs> Thank You!
[02:05]  * yoda_van cheers for gQuigs and jersey farmers makets ;)
[02:05] <pedro_> congrats and welcome gQuigs
[02:05] <harding> Congratulations, gQuigs!
[02:05] <pleia2> congrats gQuigs!
[02:05] <gQuigs> ty all
[02:05] <Joeb454> congrats gQuigs
[02:05] <emgent> congrats gQuigs and welcome.
[02:05] <emmajane> congrats gQuigs
[02:05] <paultag> gQuigs: congrats!
[02:05] <Old_Soldier> congrats gQuigs
[02:05] <emgent> but please fix your nick typo :)
[02:06] <pedro_> tedg1: you're up
[02:06] <tedg1> Howdy all.
[02:06] <tedg1> I'm Ted Gould, and I mostly contribute to Ubuntu by being on the Desktop Team.
[02:07] <tedg1> I've done most of the packaging and maintenance of the gnome-power-manager and gnome-screensaver packages for Hardy.
[02:07] <tedg1> And continued on for Intrepid.
[02:07] <tedg1> I've also done a few presentations promoting Ubuntu, and trying to get more people involved.
[02:07] <tedg1> Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TedGould
[02:07] <tedg1> LP: http://launchpad.net/~ted-gould
[02:08] <emgent> The best question is: why dont wait and apply directly to ubuntu universe contributors ?
[02:08] <tedg1> Well, I thought I needed membership first :)
[02:09] <Hobbsee> u-u-c does membership too.
[02:09] <Hobbsee> OTOH, you could get membership here, then apply directly for MOTU?
[02:09] <emgent> nods.
[02:10] <emgent> uhm.. i dont understand..
[02:10] <emgent> Email:    ted.gould@ubuntu.com  ?
[02:10] <pedro_> tedg1: are you a member of a loco team?
[02:10] <emgent> why you set this mail ?
[02:10] <tedg1> pedro_: Not really, I have participated in a few California meetings, etc.  But I wouldn't call myself a member.  And I just moved to Texas and haven't had a chance to hook up with those folks.
[02:11] <tedg1> emgent: Yes, that address was created as a mistake, which I'm trying to fix :)
[02:11] <emgent> oh ok :)
[02:11] <emgent> tedg1: anyway Hobbsee suggest is good for me.
[02:12] <vorian> tedg1: so are you going to apply to the u-u-c?
[02:12] <tedg1> Yeah, I'm not sure whether uuc or motu makes the most sense next.  I'm not sure if I have enough packages for MOTU yet.
[02:13] <tedg1> Also, most of my packages have gone into main, not universe.  I'm not sure if that's an issue.
[02:13] <emgent> ok understand.
[02:13] <tedg1> I imagine one can't do core-dev before motu though ;)
[02:14] <emgent> tedg1: anyway i think that its appropriate ask u-u-c or motu :)
[02:14] <effie_jayx> ok
[02:14] <vorian> tedg1: might be best to email the motu council to clarify
[02:14] <effie_jayx> this is great work tedg1
[02:14] <vorian> i don't think you'll have a problem though
[02:14] <vorian> :)
[02:14] <tedg1> Yeah, I was going to ask Daniel and clarify all that, he should know.
[02:14] <vorian> yep
[02:14] <effie_jayx> +1 from me
[02:14] <emgent> nice :)
[02:15] <pleia2> tedg1: very nice work, some impressive presentations - well done :)
[02:15] <tedg1> effie_jayx: Thanks.
[02:15] <emgent> congrats tedg1 and welcome :)
[02:15] <tedg1> pleia2: Thank you.
[02:15] <paultag> congrats tedg1
[02:15] <pleia2> +1 from me
[02:15] <vorian> +1 from me too
[02:15] <pedro_> totally +1, nice work indeed ;-)
[02:15] <emgent> tedg1: are you DD or DM ?
[02:15] <tedg1> Thank you all!
[02:15] <vorian> tedg1: good luck with the MC as well
[02:16] <tedg1> emgent: No, but I was talking about doing the Inkscape packages for Debian with that.
[02:16] <pleia2> congrats tedg1! good luck on your way to motu :)
[02:16] <emgent> tedg1: ok nice
[02:16] <pedro_> he's an Inkscape developer, that's a lot
[02:16] <vorian> emmajane: you are up!
[02:16] <pedro_> ;-(
[02:17] <emmajane> w00t
[02:17] <pedro_> ;-)
[02:17] <vorian> :)
[02:17] <pedro_> grgrg damn keyboard
[02:17] <emgent> emmajane: heya :)
[02:17] <dinda> go emmajane!
[02:17]  * emmajane pastes her intro:
[02:17] <emmajane> Hello! An intro, eh? Well. I'm EmmaJane Hogbin, a Canadian nerd who earns a living from many things related to FOSS, and I am here today to apply to be an Ubuntu Member. To date my greatest contribution to Ubuntu is advocacy within my physical community and also within the Ubuntu Women project. I've put together my Wiki page to highlight some of my work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmmaJane
[02:17] <effie_jayx> emmajane,  I have to say on thing
[02:17] <effie_jayx> +1 from me
[02:17] <pedro_> haha
[02:17] <effie_jayx> straight out... YOU ROCK
[02:17] <pedro_> how come?
[02:18]  * emmajane grins. Thank you, effie_jayx.
[02:18] <emgent> emmajane: launchpad page?
[02:18] <pleia2> emmajane has done tons of work with ubuntu-women, including writing a whole series of articles this year for full circle magazine for the team, writing our roadmap, and in general working to get the team into Action :)
[02:18] <effie_jayx> pedro_,  have you seen her presentations of inkscape...
[02:18] <emgent> ok found.
[02:18] <pedro_> effie_jayx: oh not yet, where can i find them?
[02:18] <effie_jayx> pedro_,  wiki page ;)
[02:18] <emmajane> https://launchpad.net/~emmajane
[02:19] <pedro_> effie_jayx: great, thanks
[02:19] <dinda> ditto what pleia2 said plus I've met emmajane and heard her speak at LugRadio US
[02:19] <effie_jayx> emmajane,  sorry If I cut you off
[02:19] <emmajane> effie_jayx: no worries. :)
[02:19] <Hobbsee> yay, emmajane!
[02:20] <emmajane> thanks, Hobbsee :)
[02:20] <pleia2> easy +1 from me, fantastic work emmajane!
[02:20] <vorian> +1 :)
[02:20] <effie_jayx> vorian,  and pedro_ ?
[02:20] <vorian> fulfilling a planet request to boot
[02:20] <vorian> :)
[02:21] <pedro_> +1 from here too ;-)
[02:21] <pleia2> woohoo, congrats emmajane!!
[02:21] <pedro_> emmajane: please add your blog to the planet ;-)
[02:21] <pleia2> yes, add your blog :)
[02:21]  * emmajane claps with delight.
[02:21] <emmajane> Thanks. :)
[02:21] <vorian> SEJeff: are you back by chance?
[02:21] <vorian> welcome emmajane :)
[02:21] <dinda> congrats emmajane!  now you have to buy us all a drink
[02:21] <nellery> congrats emmajane!!
[02:21] <pedro_> drinks? where?
[02:22]  * emmajane grins atta dinda. Virtual drinks on me back in #ubuntu-women ;)
[02:22] <pleia2> w00t!
[02:22] <pedro_> yay!
[02:22] <vorian> congrats to all the new members, and thanks for stopping in tonight!
[02:23] <paultag> :) ty vorian
[02:23] <gQuigs> thank you
[02:23] <vorian> see ya next time!
[02:23] <emmajane> thanks. :)
[02:23] <Old_Soldier> :) thanks
[02:23] <nellery> grats to all new members :)
[02:23] <pedro_> yes congratulations guys and let's keep Ubuntu rocking the house!
[02:23] <pleia2> congrats everyone :)
[02:23] <tedg1> Thank you.
[02:26] <effie_jayx> thank you all
[02:26] <effie_jayx> keep up the great work
[04:59] <persia> Who's here for the MOTU Meeting?
[04:59]  * ScottK is sort of half here.
[04:59] <nxvl> o/
[04:59] <NCommander> I'm here
[04:59] <NCommander> But I'm sorta braindamaged
[04:59] <NCommander> I've been debugging dak
[05:00]  * NCommander hides from dak
[05:01] <persia> OK.  While we gather, any volunteers to chair the meeting?
[05:01]  * NCommander raises hand if non-MOTUs can chair
[05:01] <persia> NCommander: Certainly.  You know how to use MootBot?
[05:02] <NCommander> Not a clue
[05:02] <NCommander> and I doubt it has a man page
[05:02] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
[05:02]  * NCommander blinks
[05:02] <NCommander> WOw
[05:02] <NCommander> Documentation
[05:02] <NCommander> WTF?
[05:03] <LaserJock> woah, watch the CoC there ;-)
[05:03] <NCommander> Worse than failure is a bad word ;-)?
[05:03] <persia> NCommander: You may also find https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings useful as input to guiding the meeting.
[05:03] <NCommander> MootBot, #startmeeting
[05:03] <NCommander> ...
[05:03]  * Hobbsee is a little bit here
[05:03] <persia> Don't prefix the command with anything.
[05:03] <NCommander> #startmeeting?
[05:03] <Hobbsee> #startmeeting
[05:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 23:07. The chair is Hobbsee.
[05:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[05:03] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[05:03] <MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
[05:04] <Hobbsee> drat.
[05:04] <NCommander> Bah
[05:04] <NCommander> THe bot is lagging
[05:04] <persia> Hobbsee is chair!
[05:04] <Hobbsee> i am!
[05:04]  * Hobbsee MUHAHAHAHA
[05:04] <NCommander> I typed it in first >.<;
[05:04] <NCommander> argh
[05:04] <NCommander> oh well
[05:04] <Hobbsee> NCommander: you needed to lose the ?
[05:04] <persia> NCommander: You added a '?' so it didn't work.
[05:04]  * NCommander passes the chair, and thus the responsibilities of the meeting to Hobbsee 
[05:04] <Hobbsee> so...
[05:04] <NCommander> Hobbsee, no, I typed it again just before Hobbsee
[05:04] <Hobbsee> #topic MOTU Key Team Selection
[05:05] <NCommander> but it lagged getting to the IRC server
[05:05] <Hobbsee> [topic] MOTU Key Team Selection
[05:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Key Team Selection
[05:05] <Hobbsee> persia: you're up!
[05:05] <persia> OK.  We've been discussing how to select members for key teams for 6 weeks now.
[05:05] <Hobbsee> please actually decide.  watching it is painful.
[05:05] <persia> The ML thread seems to have died, and NCommander, who was appointed shepherd hasn't sent anything.
[05:06] <NCommander> I was susposed to send something?
[05:06] <persia> Also, we're running out of members on key teams, and desperately need to have a means to get new ones.
[05:06] <persia> So, what needs doing to have a policy?
[05:06]  * ScottK ponders RFC 3933 and gets back to $WORK.
[05:06] <NCommander> persia, someone probably just needs to write it, and say "We're doing this"
[05:07] <NCommander> We could draft it now, or two proposals, and put it to a vote tonight
[05:07] <persia> NCommander: and as shepherd from the last meeting, I'd expect you'd want to do that, no?
[05:08] <nxvl> persia: but how can we select for candidates? in a time basis?
[05:08] <persia> The other option is admitting that we can't come to a conclusion, and pushing to MOTU Council, but I don't like doing that.
[05:08] <NCommander> That was the idea. I wasn't aware that I was susposed to actually start the conversation on the list, I thought I just gathered what was posted to put to a vote for this meeting ...
[05:08] <nxvl> being it: "it need to be a motu for X time"
[05:08] <NCommander> so I dropped the ball :-/
[05:08] <NCommander> I say we do extactly what we do for regular MOTU membership
[05:08] <NCommander> You put forth a nomination
[05:08] <persia> nxvl: I don't think that should be a requirement, as long as someone is currently MOTU and has sufficient respect by everyone else.
[05:08] <NCommander> People can sponsor you for the position
[05:09] <NCommander> And if there is any objections, have a window where they can publically be posted
[05:09] <NCommander> ratification needs to be by majority vote
[05:09] <persia> NCommander: You say, or you believe this to be consensus?
[05:09] <nxvl> persia: that's where i wanted to come
[05:09] <NCommander> persia, I was putting it forth as an idea
[05:09] <ScottK> I didn't say so on the ML, but I liked the proposal.
[05:09] <nxvl> persia: how can you meassure the "respect" of developers
[05:10] <ScottK> nxvl: When it's been absent in the past, there hasn't been any confusion about it.
[05:10] <NCommander> [IDEA] Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship
[05:10] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship
[05:10] <persia> nxvl: I tend to think that it is best selected by nobody saying "they don't know what they are talking about", and voting in the rare occasion we have too many people who want to be on the team, but that's my viewpoint.
[05:11] <Hobbsee> NCommander: i'll make this easy:  the chair of the meeting won't let this meeting finish, until there's a definite policy :P
[05:11] <NCommander> Hobbsee, that's what I was going to do as chair
[05:11] <NCommander> [IDEA] Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team
[05:11] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team
[05:11] <Hobbsee> good idea ;)
[05:11] <persia> Err, council is appointed by TB, although they tend to take our recommendations.  We can't adjust that.  This is for -sru and -release, and maybe other types of MOTU/Leaders
[05:11] <ScottK> And it's mid day in .au, so she'll likely be awake for long time
[05:11] <Hobbsee> ScottK: well, i'll have to go to wokr eventually.  but yeah :D
[05:11]  * persia cheers the idea of filibusters
[05:12] <NCommander> well, we have two ideas on the table
[05:12] <Hobbsee> is this anyone who's a MOTU, or anyone at all?
[05:12] <LaserJock> can I interject just for a second?
[05:12] <NCommander> Hobbsee, MOTU is a requirement
[05:12] <Hobbsee> oh good
[05:12] <NCommander> I think that's always been clear
[05:12] <NCommander> LaserJock, shoot
[05:12] <Hobbsee> just checking
[05:12] <persia> For some roles, MOTU is optional (e.g. LP Liaison, MOTU School Dean, etc.), for others, I think it's a requirement (e.g. -sru, -release)
[05:12] <LaserJock> did anybody *not* approve of persia's proposal to ubuntu-motu?
[05:12] <NCommander> (I should say MOTU or better, but you catch my drift)
[05:13] <persia> LaserJock: That's a good place to start :)
[05:13] <NCommander> LaserJock, refresh the proposal for me
[05:13] <persia> NCommander: There is no *better*
[05:13] <ScottK> NCommander: core-dev are also MOTU, so there is no better.
[05:13]  * ScottK high fives persia
[05:13]  * NCommander inserts foot in mouth
[05:13] <persia> Well, most core-dev are also MOTU.  The rest don't tend to play in universe
[05:13] <NCommander> Ok
[05:13] <LaserJock> MOTU trinity perhaps? ;-)
[05:13] <NCommander> Let me be more clear
[05:14] <NCommander> We're all agreed that -sru/-release must be an MOTU
[05:14] <persia> LaserJock: MOTU trinity appoints everyone
[05:14] <NCommander> Right?
[05:14]  * persia thinks none of MOTU trinity has time just now.
[05:14] <StevenK> ScottK: Only by team membership.
[05:14] <ScottK> True.
[05:14] <persia> Anyway, my proposal was https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-July/004275.html
[05:14] <ScottK> NCommander: Yes.
[05:14] <NCommander> MOTU trinity?
[05:14] <StevenK> Some core-dev aren't in the team. Like our esteamed chair.
[05:15] <StevenK> esteemed? Sigh. Spelling
[05:15] <persia> NCommander: historical group who led MOTU prior to the foundation of MOTU Council
[05:15] <ScottK> Not sure you got it wrong.
[05:15] <NCommander> persia, ah
[05:15] <nxvl> NCommander: is anyone in doubt that motuship is a requirement?
[05:15] <NCommander> nxvl, Hobbsee was
[05:15] <persia> I am, for some roles.
[05:15] <Hobbsee> which team, sorry?
[05:15] <LaserJock> I would think UUC for some roles
[05:15] <NCommander> Hobbsee, -sru/-release
[05:16] <Hobbsee> oh, right.
[05:16] <StevenK> -{sru,release} is so MOTU only
[05:16] <NCommander> LaserJock, UUC is acceptable for all others (essentially anything you need to upload)
[05:16] <NCommander> er
[05:16] <LaserJock> ?
[05:16] <NCommander> ^upload requires MOTU
[05:16] <NCommander> if the nature of the position requires you to upload to the archive
[05:16] <persia> Yes.  {-sru,-release} is very MOTU-only
[05:16] <NCommander> Then you need to be an MOTU
[05:16] <LaserJock> *anyway*, why don't we quickly have a look at persia's proposal ^^ and see if there are any objections
[05:16] <NCommander> Ok, so that's clear
[05:17] <NCommander> I have one problem with persia's proposal
[05:17] <persia> What's that?
[05:17] <NCommander> We could get stuck with someone in sru/release for a very long time who is .... shall we say uncooperative at times
[05:17] <persia> NCommander: Not likely: some MOTU would call for resignation, no?
[05:17]  * StevenK beats NCommander with a Debian stick
[05:17] <NCommander> I mean, go back 10 years, and you still had mostly the same ftpmasters on debian, and the release team.
[05:18]  * NCommander is immune to StevenK's stick due his dak braindamage
[05:18] <Hobbsee> persia: not if they wanted their stuff approved.
[05:18] <LaserJock> we have a pretty good history of people stepping down when they don't have time/interest
[05:18] <NCommander> I'm just saying that power can corrupt
[05:18] <StevenK> NCommander: You're just bitter. Wait, we're both bitter.
[05:18] <nxvl> what we did on ubuntu-pe on the council foundation was:
[05:18] <LaserJock> NCommander: there's not a lot of power here
[05:18] <persia> Hobbsee: See, that's why we try to have multiple members.
[05:19] <nxvl> the one interested on the position sends a mail to the list, if he get's 2 ACK's it's an elegible candidate
[05:19] <StevenK> And usually -{sru,release} is commenting on bugs saying "Oh, fine, upload your damn package"
[05:19] <persia> Anyway, if a current team is completely broken, we can always look to MC for dispute resolution, or in the worst case, go to TB.
[05:19] <Hobbsee> i agree with NCommander's thought, though - for whatever reason, the person themselves might want to keep serving, but the general team might not want them to, and a method of asking them to step aside might be a good one.
[05:19] <NCommander> The problem with asking people for a resignation is it creates a lot of bad tension, and will turn u-motu into u-drama
[05:19] <Hobbsee> power to the head, and all that.
[05:19] <StevenK> Actual wording may be different.
[05:19] <nxvl> so any candidature must need at least 2 people supporting it
[05:19] <nxvl> before the poll
[05:19] <persia> NCommander: I'm fine with drama if someone is misbehaving: it's far better than apathy, bitterness, and attrition.
[05:20] <NCommander> I'd go also as far as every $X months, a vote is required for that person to keep the position, but no overall term limit
[05:20] <StevenK> Personally, I'd like the team to be able to say +1, and others in the team to say -1. If n >= 2, it's okay. If it's not, fix it.
[05:20] <NCommander> Well, if its a closed ballot vote, and the person is voted out, no drama
[05:20] <Hobbsee> StevenK: ++
[05:20] <persia> StevenK: I'm generally uncomfortable confirming someone when there is any negative vote, but I can see that viewpoint.
[05:20] <LaserJock> ok, I have to say I find it slightly ironic that we're debating over how to kick people of the teams when we're here because we can't get them filled :-)
[05:20] <NCommander> rofl
[05:21] <Hobbsee> haha
[05:21] <StevenK> persia: Well, we can make a policy. n >= 2 and no negatives
[05:21] <NCommander> StevenK, that can backfire if someone holds a gruge
[05:21] <persia> StevenK: That works for me: two in support.
[05:21] <persia> NCommander: In that case, there is a disagreement, which ought be sorted if we are to work effectively as a team.
[05:21] <StevenK> NCommander: It's supposed to -{sru,release} not -primary-school
[05:22] <NCommander> StevenK, obviously I've been tainted by two years on d-devel
[05:22] <StevenK> NCommander: Unsubscribe, it worked for me.
[05:22] <persia> d-devel is different, in several ways.
[05:22] <NCommander> I tried
[05:22]  * StevenK used to read d-devel
[05:22] <NCommander> d-devel won't remove me from the list
[05:22]  * StevenK still has the scars
[05:23] <NCommander> StevenK, they have abuse groups for that
[05:23] <StevenK> NCommander: Mail the listmasters
[05:23] <persia> Umm.  Aren't we drifting?
[05:23] <StevenK> They have this lovely command vi
[05:23] <StevenK> persia: Just a little
[05:23] <Hobbsee> yes, yes, we're drifting.  this is ubuntu here.
[05:23] <NCommander> Ok, back on topic
[05:23]  * persia wants more SRU team members
[05:23] <LaserJock> persia: I have a question about your proposal
[05:23] <LaserJock> specifically, I don't quite understand the paragraph starting with "If the acceptance of a candidate would push the team oversize"
[05:23] <StevenK> persia: So, we clone you a few times, and there's our -{sru,release}.
[05:23]  * persia fails to type !ask, but only barely
[05:23] <NCommander> Actually, I have one thing I'd like to amend
[05:23] <persia> StevenK: I'm in neither team, which is probably a good thing :p
[05:24] <NCommander> And that is to loose the -sru max team size
[05:24] <NCommander> I can't think of a great reason why it should be there
[05:24] <persia> LaserJock: Basically, if more people want to join than there are slots, we vote, and someone steps down.
[05:24] <NCommander> Since there is always a good backup of sru requests, make it so anyone who's qualified could work towards resolving them
[05:24] <LaserJock> we vote on the whole team?
[05:24] <persia> If there are a lot of pending applications, the election may be delayed.
[05:24] <persia> LaserJock: Yes, with e.g. 5 winners out of 7.
[05:24] <LaserJock> why would the election be delated?
[05:24] <LaserJock> *delayed
[05:25] <NCommander> Again, why are we capping the team size?
[05:25] <StevenK> Because we're apparently Debian and can't agree.
[05:25] <persia> In the case that say three people applied to fill one position on the team, we'd wait for the one-week discussion period to pass for each of the three before holding the vote.  Saves having three votes in a couple weeks.
[05:25] <NCommander> StevenK, I suddenly flashed back to when Ian brought up the triggers stink on d-devel
[05:25] <LaserJock> persia: oh, I see
[05:26] <persia> NCommander: Because both teams exist from TB requests to get a collection of people with expertise to rule on these matters.
[05:26] <StevenK> NCommander: That is because most Developers saw the U-word and charged.
[05:26] <LaserJock> persia: could we instead have a "call for nominations" so that the times aren't staggered?
[05:26] <persia> IT doesn't make sense to have the collection of expertise be everyone.
[05:26] <LaserJock> exactly
[05:26] <NCommander> If the MOTU community feels someone is suited for a job, and they want to do it, why bar them?
[05:26] <persia> LaserJock: I guess.  I'm only imagining a delay of at most three or four days.  Given how likely it is that I'm supposed to set up the election, and by supply of tuits, I suspect we'd have such a delay anyway.
[05:26] <persia> s/by/my/
[05:26] <LaserJock> NCommander: again, the irony
[05:27] <LaserJock> I think the problem is filling, not limiting
[05:27] <ScottK> NCommander: What have an SRU team if it can just be everyone (hint: We tried that.  Didn't work so good).
[05:27] <NCommander> ScottK, and there's a reason why not ;-)
[05:27] <StevenK> LaserJock: You need to turn off your iron detector
[05:27] <LaserJock> persia: ok, fine. that paragraph was just a bit confusing to me. I got it know
[05:27] <NCommander> LaserJock, that thing is licensed under the GPL license, its got no warrenty it works right
[05:28]  * ScottK declares it bed time.
[05:28] <persia> ScottK: before you go
[05:28] <ScottK> Yes?
[05:28] <NCommander> I'd like to call for a vote, just to see where people are standing: The vote should be "Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal"
[05:28] <persia> As you've yet to update w.u.c/MOTU/Meetings with instructions for the decision process, what needs doing to confirm this?
[05:28] <nxvl> also everyone can do the job
[05:29] <ScottK> Rates.
[05:29] <nxvl> no one say you can't
[05:29] <ScottK> Rats
[05:29] <Hobbsee> [vote] Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal
[05:29] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal.
[05:29] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[05:29] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[05:29] <nxvl> but some people (group of) need to take the lead on the topic
[05:29]  * persia probably should have put the agenda items in opposite order
[05:29] <NCommander> +
[05:29] <ScottK> persia: NCommander makes a summary and asks for comment on the ML.  If he judges that the rough consensus is in favor, it's in.
[05:29] <persia> +0 because it's my proposal
[05:29] <MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[05:29] <NCommander> er +1
[05:29] <NCommander> +1
[05:29] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[05:29] <ScottK> +1
[05:29] <MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[05:29] <Hobbsee> +1
[05:29] <MootBot> +1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[05:29] <LaserJock> +1
[05:29] <MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[05:29] <StevenK> +1
[05:29] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[05:30] <LaserJock> \0/
[05:30] <nxvl> +1
[05:30] <MootBot> +1 received from nxvl. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
[05:30] <persia> ScottK: If I judge?  NCommander was appointed shepherd: is it not if Ncommander judges?
[05:30] <NCommander> Ok, now we're getting somewhere
[05:30] <ScottK> Anyone who violently objects to NCommander's consensus call can appeal to MC.
[05:30] <Hobbsee> [endvote]
[05:30] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
[05:30] <NCommander> huh, what?
[05:30] <Hobbsee> right.
[05:30] <persia> Never mind: I misread that.
[05:30] <NCommander> Look, we're all leaning towards persia's proposal
[05:30] <persia> NCommander: It's all up to you.
[05:30] <ScottK> persia: If NCommander judges.
[05:30] <ScottK> Right.
[05:30] <NCommander> Now we just need to refine it, and post it to the list
[05:30] <Hobbsee> right, so what bits of persia's proposal needs refining.
[05:30] <ScottK> Good night and good luck.
[05:31] <Hobbsee> [agreed] We're going with persia's proposal to the list
[05:31] <MootBot> AGREED received:  We're going with persia's proposal to the list
[05:31] <NCommander> I'll open the floor for anyone to [IDEA]
[05:31] <NCommander> ;-)
[05:31] <persia> There were a few issues mentioned in followup email on the thread: those ought be incorporated.
[05:31] <LaserJock> well, I for one would like the get the cliff notes/bullet point version :-)
[05:31] <persia> bullet points:
[05:31] <NCommander> I've got six hours
[05:31] <StevenK> Damn university people wanting cliff notes
[05:31] <NCommander> I can hammer this thing out, and make it done and stick
[05:31] <persia> * Team sizes are limited
[05:31] <persia> * Anyone can apply at any time
[05:32] <persia> * An application needs 2 supporters within a week to be successful, and no (unretracted) criticism
[05:32] <NCommander> I
[05:32] <persia> * If an application is successful, but puts the team oversize, we vote on who drops out
[05:32] <NCommander> That rubs me the wrong way on that last bit
[05:33] <persia> * Any MOTU can call for resignation of any team member at any time, which generates discussion, and one of retraction of the call for resignation, a resignation, or dispute resolution by MC.
[05:33] <persia> bullet points done.
[05:33] <NCommander> The second to last one rubs me the wrong way
[05:33] <StevenK> NCommander: Only because you want no limit on the team size
[05:33] <NCommander> I'm willing to conceed on that point
[05:33] <StevenK> Having fifteen people on the team and only needing +2 is ... pointless
[05:33] <persia> TB has specifically asked that we provide a small team to do these things.  As ScottK noted, we used to have an open team, and that annoyed the archive-admins
[05:34] <LaserJock> well, the only thing I'd say would be that we should vote on who *stays* not who goes, but that's sort of semantics
[05:34] <NCommander> But the problem is if you have five people doing it who are doing it without issue, I'm not going to be the one who votes who leaves the island
[05:34] <NCommander> What is this, MOTU survivor?
[05:34] <LaserJock> yes
[05:34]  * StevenK votes off NCommander 
[05:34]  * NCommander declares StevenK the weakest link
[05:34] <StevenK> Ha!
[05:34] <NCommander> StevenK, beside, you can't vote me off, I'm not an MOTU ;-)
[05:34] <persia> NCommander: If we have five people doing the job well, it's unlikely someone else will want to join the team.
[05:35] <LaserJock> and if it really comes to it, we can bump the max size
[05:35] <persia> RIght, although we'd want to confirm that with TB
[05:35] <LaserJock> but just because people are good at what they do doesn't mean they necessarily should be doing it
[05:35] <nxvl> i don't really think we will get to the point where we have a overlanded team
[05:36] <nxvl> i find it to difficult
[05:36] <LaserJock> I think rotations are nice, giving people a break
[05:36]  * persia notes that policy isn't etched in stone or anything: having no policy is bad: having a policy that needs fixing is a soluable issue
[05:36] <NCommander> nxvl, well, the churn rate is kinda high
[05:36] <NCommander> ;-)
[05:36] <LaserJock> it also sort of solves the "what if there's a crusty old bugger that nobody likes" issue ;-)
[05:36] <NCommander> I agree with LaserJock
[05:36] <NCommander> Maybe we could have a reserve that anyone with two sponsors can join, and the actual team
[05:36] <persia> Right.  One can call for resignation, or one can apply as a replacement.
[05:36] <NCommander> And every release, people get shuffled in and out
[05:37] <nxvl> since everyone knows he can do the job without having the diploma saying he's able to do it
[05:37] <LaserJock> gosh, we don't want *that* much churn
[05:37] <persia> I don't like shuffling people every release.  We tried that, and the learning curve bit us.
[05:37] <NCommander> I still think rotations are a good thing personally
[05:37]  * ajmitch has already shuffled off long ago
[05:37] <LaserJock> rotation is good
[05:37] <NCommander> Lets put it to a vote
[05:37] <LaserJock> rotating constantly is not
[05:38] <NCommander> SHould the sru/release team have rotations?
[05:38] <LaserJock> -1, it should be as needed
[05:38] <StevenK> Not every release
[05:38] <NCommander> Once a year ;-)
[05:38] <NCommander> Once ever LTS?
[05:38] <StevenK> If someone wants to keep doing it, let them
[05:38] <persia> We already killed that a long time ago.
[05:39] <nxvl> we can suggest people to go trought a selection process again every 6 months on a volunteer basis
[05:39] <NCommander> so no rotations?
[05:39] <nxvl> but we can't do more
[05:39]  * NCommander pokes Hobbsee 
[05:39] <ajmitch> NCommander: careful
[05:39]  * Hobbsee pokes back
[05:39] <NCommander> Oh good, she's alive
[05:39] <Hobbsee> sorry, are we voting again, or?
[05:39] <NCommander> LaserJock, well, how would you handle rotations
[05:40] <StevenK> Non-automatically
[05:40] <LaserJock> people come and go as time and interest permits
[05:40] <NCommander> Hobbsee, I'm not sure anymore, I wanted to see where people sat on having rotations (of a term length to be decided)
[05:40] <persia> NCommander: Generally people stop after a year or so: that provides openings for new people.
[05:40] <persia> As long as not everyone stops at once, the team can maintain culture and shared expertise.
[05:40] <Hobbsee> NCommander: oh.  rotations can be good
[05:40] <NCommander> I'm just worried we get stuck in the Debian solution
[05:40] <NCommander> er, problem
[05:40] <LaserJock> NCommander: we are *not* Debian
[05:40] <ajmitch> NCommander: bitterness & disillusionment?
[05:40] <persia> We won't.  Ubuntu is culturally far too distinct from Debian
[05:40] <NCommander> Yeah
[05:41] <NCommander> I'm learning that
[05:41] <NCommander> Ok
[05:41] <ajmitch> excellent
[05:41] <ajmitch> you're well on your way
[05:41] <NCommander> DO we need rotations actually written in the policy
[05:41] <StevenK> No
[05:41] <NCommander> Or can it be sorta an ad-hoc thing
[05:41] <LaserJock> as long as there are people who come forward to replace it really won't be a problem
[05:41] <nxvl> yeah
[05:41] <NCommander> OK
[05:41] <nxvl> ubuntu is really different
[05:41] <NCommander> I assume the five team limit is something thats already in place
[05:41] <NCommander> or does that require discussion
[05:41] <nxvl> people (like we have seen some days ago) step down for responsabilities when they can't handle it
[05:42] <NCommander> (I'm going to say it doesn't, but I just want to make sure we can kill this off the meeting list for good)
[05:42] <persia> We had an exception once and went to six, but one of the members was on vacation, and we were back to five before he returned.
[05:42] <LaserJock> I tend to think it may need to be a per-team thing
[05:42] <NCommander> So the leader of the team chooses, or?
[05:42] <LaserJock> some teams just don't need to be that big
[05:42] <persia> Let's go with "five" for now, and allow exceptions if we want.
[05:42] <LaserJock> k, sounds good
[05:42] <NCommander> Ok
[05:42] <NCommander> Works for me
[05:43] <persia> (the facility for exceptions doesn't need to be in policy: it's implied by the way we do things)
[05:43]  * NCommander perfers to cover his bases
[05:43] <NCommander> Is there any outstanding issues with persia's that haven't been covered
[05:43] <NCommander> Going once
[05:43] <nxvl> persia: would you present the New Decision Process now or will wait a bit more
[05:43] <nxvl> ?
[05:44] <NCommander> nxvl, we need to run it through a final vote just to make it offical ;-)
[05:44] <NCommander> To recap
[05:44] <persia> nxvl: When the chair asks, once this topic is complete.
[05:44] <st33med> night
[05:44] <NCommander> * -sru/-release are five man teams who are all MOTUs. More people can be added if needed
[05:45] <NCommander> * - Anyone can leave the teams at any time by posting to u-motu with their resignation
[05:45] <LaserJock> *cough* women are allowed *cough*
[05:45] <Hobbsee> [vote] Agree with NCommander's summary above?
[05:45] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Agree with NCommander's summary above?.
[05:45] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[05:45] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[05:45] <NCommander> Hobbsee, I'm not done typing it!
[05:45] <StevenK> Hah
[05:45] <StevenK> LaserJock: Dear me
[05:45] <Hobbsee> NCommander: sorry, i wasn't sure if you were
[05:46]  * persia stuffs LaserJock for irrelevancy and redundant restatement of base assumptions
[05:46] <StevenK> LaserJock: That's a little unecessary
[05:46] <NCommander> * - To join the team, you nomination yourself, and need two sponsorship requests. the floor is opened to -motu for anyone to post criticisms. Any valid criticisms that are not retracted or resolved invalidates that member from joining the team
[05:46] <NCommander> * - Any MOTU can request the resignination of someone on -sru/-release, which is handled via a vote at the next meeting
[05:46] <persia> Note that non-motu may comment, but their complaints may not be honoured.
[05:47] <NCommander> persia, That's why its "Any valid criticism"
[05:47] <NCommander> ;-)
[05:47] <LaserJock> StevenK: sorry, been living in a PC world too long I guess :-)
[05:47] <persia> What?  Why vote on calls for resignation?
[05:47] <nxvl> +1
[05:47] <MootBot> +1 received from nxvl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[05:47] <NCommander> If the member chooses not to step down
[05:47] <NCommander> +1
[05:47] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[05:47] <NCommander> actually
[05:47] <persia> If there is a call, and it is not withdrawn I'd rather push to MC for dispute resolution than have a vote.
[05:47] <Hobbsee> +1
[05:47] <MootBot> +1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[05:47]  * persia is not a fan of democracy
[05:47] <NCommander> +0
[05:47] <LaserJock> woah, woah
[05:48] <ajmitch> LaserJock: what a shocking thought :)
[05:48] <LaserJock> let's figure out this last issue before we go voting
[05:48] <nxvl> persia: me neither, but if don't you have anarchy
[05:48] <NCommander> Hobbsee, cancel the vote
[05:48] <nxvl> persia: so it's a needed virus
[05:48] <NCommander> Ok
[05:48] <LaserJock> nxvl: no, we have mechanisms in place
[05:48] <Hobbsee> how?
[05:48] <persia> nxvl: There are other functional governance structures: it's all about balancing entitlement and corruption.
[05:48] <NCommander> Hobbsee, file a feature request against MootBoo, and wait on the developers ;-)
[05:49] <persia> You can't cancel a vote, but you can end a vote.
[05:49] <persia> Alternately, we can discuss, and those that wish may change their votes.
[05:49] <NCommander> Ok, lets discuss
[05:49] <Hobbsee> persia: +1 for the second option
[05:49] <NCommander> What's the current method of bringing up a problem MOTU/core-dev
[05:49] <persia> So, my feeling is that if any MOTU is unhappy with a member of a key team, we have a problem.
[05:50] <NCommander> (lets just get it out in the open and on e-paper)
[05:50] <LaserJock> because we have a MOTU Council who's specifically designed for dispute resolution I don't think voting on resignations needs to be addressed here
[05:50] <persia> The first way to solve that is for the complainant (or a proxy) to send an email noting the reasons why that key team member may not be suitable.
[05:50] <NCommander> Ok
[05:50] <persia> As a result, the team member may resign, or there may be discussion, and the call for resignation may be wihdrawn.
[05:51] <persia> If we can't reach a decision, we tell MC they need to resolve the dispute.
[05:51] <NCommander> Lets simply note that if a team member chooses not to resign, and the resignation is not recalled, MC has to handle it
[05:51] <nxvl> need to go
[05:51] <nxvl> read you later
[05:51] <persia> That way nobody can complain that they didn't win a vote, or something was a popularity contest.
[05:51] <NCommander> Simple, and clean,
[05:51] <persia> We resolve the root issues, and move on.
[05:51] <persia> NCommander: Right, which is what was in my proposal.
[05:51] <NCommander> With that as our resignation policy, are there any objections
[05:52] <NCommander> If there are none, please vote now
[05:52] <LaserJock> +1
[05:52] <MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[05:52]  * NCommander plays the jeopardy music
[05:52] <persia> +1
[05:52] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[05:53] <NCommander> I think everyone who's going to vote has voted, Hobbsee care to close the vote?
[05:53] <StevenK> +1
[05:53] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[05:53] <StevenK> So nyah
[05:54] <NCommander> bah, StevenK messing up my plans for vote domination
[05:54] <Hobbsee> [endvote]
[05:54] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
[05:54] <Hobbsee> sorry
[05:54] <LaserJock> \o/
[05:54] <NCommander> W00
[05:54] <NCommander> It's resolved
[05:54] <LaserJock> we made a real decision!
[05:54] <Hobbsee> yay!
[05:54] <NCommander> Thanks to persia (and no thanks to me)
[05:54] <Hobbsee> okay, so...
[05:54] <persia> NCommander: Just for reference, voting doesn't matter much: it's up to you to post an accurate summary of input to the list, call for discussion, and indicate when consensus is reached.
[05:54] <LaserJock> ... or did we?
[05:54]  * ajmitch curses dsl & ssh a few more times 
[05:54] <persia> We didn't. which brings me to the next agenda item :)
[05:55] <NCommander> persia, bah, you just undermined the happy thoughts
[05:55] <Hobbsee> drat.  i closed teh agenda tab.
[05:55] <ajmitch> unclose it
[05:55] <Hobbsee> [topic] [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?
[05:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?
[05:55] <NCommander> Review of the "New Decision Process"
[05:55] <Hobbsee> oops
[05:55]  * persia enrolls Hobbsee in the chairing meetings for geeks course
[05:55] <NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[05:55] <Hobbsee> [topic Review of the "New Decision Process" ]
[05:55] <StevenK> Haha
[05:55] <Hobbsee> [topic] Review of the "New Decision Process"
[05:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of the "New Decision Process"
[05:55] <Hobbsee> FAIL!
[05:56] <Hobbsee> bad copy key!
[05:56] <NCommander> Anyone got the bullet points version, I have no idea what this is about from the summary
[05:56] <persia> There's nothing out there.
[05:56] <ajmitch> persia does, I hope
[05:56] <LaserJock> hmm
[05:56] <persia> About a month ago, or maybe six weeks, we agreed to trial the new decision process, and review it later.
[05:56] <NCommander> Then uh ... what are we discussing?
[05:56] <NCommander> Oh
[05:56] <NCommander> What was the old one?
[05:57] <persia> So, who likes/dislikes the new process vs. the old one, and why?
[05:57] <StevenK> Using Launchpad?
[05:57] <LaserJock> I don't much care for any of them
[05:57] <ajmitch> persia: the fact that noone can remember what it is says a lot
[05:57] <persia> The old one was that we made decisions in the MOTU Meetings, and where we weren't certain about consensus, we sent mail to the ML and revisited in the next MOTU Meeting.
[05:57] <NCommander> What was the new one?
[05:57] <LaserJock> either they take too long, or the don't include enough people
[05:57] <NCommander> (that sounds like the current one)
[05:57] <persia> The new one says we send mail to the ML, discuss it, discuss it in a MOTU Meeting, appoint a shepherd, and discuss more on the ML.
[05:58] <StevenK> I don't want to use Condorect. We aren't Debian, and devotee makes me cry.
[05:58] <NCommander> I hate to say this, but since I failed as the shepard the last time around, maybe we should table this, and bring it up in a month?
[05:58] <LaserJock> what if we did similar to the leadership process
[05:58] <persia> Erm. NO.
[05:58] <StevenK> Mainly because Manoj writes software like it's going to be installed on the space shuttle
[05:58] <NCommander> THere's only been one meeting since the new process went in, isn't it?
[05:59] <NCommander> StevenK, I packaged devotee
[05:59] <NCommander> StevenK, that was *fun*
[05:59] <LaserJock> i.e. somebody proposes something, wait a week, if 2 supports and no objections it stands
[05:59] <StevenK> NCommander: You poor guy
[05:59] <slangasek> StevenK: Bruce set a bad example, obviously ;P
[05:59] <NCommander> The hardest part was using baz
[05:59] <persia> This is a discussion item only: no decision need be made.  If there is strong enough support for reverting, someone can propose a reversion item (using the new process) to return to the old process.
[05:59] <StevenK> slangasek: Haha
[05:59] <slangasek> StevenK: there are other condorcet implementations besides devotee, though
[05:59] <slangasek> (hi, folks)
[05:59] <persia> LaserJock: I like MOTU Meetings, rather than the ML.  I have time to prepare for the discussion, and I focus my attention.
[05:59] <NCommander> hello Mr. Langasek
[05:59] <persia> ML threads seem a poor way to resolve disputes.
[06:00]  * NCommander agrees with persia
[06:00] <LaserJock> persia: well, that could be used
[06:00]  * persia fails to specifically point out any other distributions for comparison
[06:00] <LaserJock> i.e. if there are objections after a week it goes to a MOTU Meeting where a vote resolves the dispute
[06:00] <persia> I'd rather just discuss in a MOTU Meeting.
[06:00]  * NCommander again agrees with persia 
[06:00] <persia> For the vast majority of items, there is consensus in the Meeting, and no need for a vote.
[06:01] <LaserJock> I don't like that though
[06:01] <persia> That said, my personal opinon isn't sufficient to change, and if others like the new process better, I'm not going to propose we revert
[06:01] <LaserJock> because you can get vastly different input depending on which meeting you propose at
[06:01] <NCommander> Well, there is one thing, is it seems the old method failed on the teams issue, and the new one worked
[06:01] <LaserJock> seems apt to gaming and doesn't give a chance for everybody to participate
[06:01] <NCommander> That probably says a lot right there
[06:02] <persia> NCommander: We didn't try the old one on the teams, and the new one also hasn't rendered a decision.  I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.
[06:02] <NCommander> oh
[06:02] <NCommander> *ahem*
[06:02]  * NCommander shuts up
[06:02] <LaserJock> IRC meetings would be great if it wasn't just 3-5 deciding for 80+
[06:03] <persia> LaserJock: We only had a few cases where a decision in a MOTU Meeting was overruled in later discussion.  That's part of why minutes go to the ML.
[06:03] <NCommander> Maybe make X amount of meetings mandatory for MOTUs :-P
[06:03] <NCommander> That would solve that issue
[06:03] <LaserJock> persia: true
[06:03] <persia> The thing is, even on the ML, it's the same people who attend the meetings who comment on policy stuff.
[06:03] <NCommander> Well, looking around
[06:03] <LaserJock> persia: but I still feel like it's more of a "take ownership of your team thing" than a "we don't trust people" thing
[06:03] <persia> I'm all for transparency, but I'm not happy about delays, nor using a process which remains undocumented after six weeks of use.
[06:04] <NCommander> We have four motus, Hobbsee who is kinda here, and myself as the only non-motu
[06:04] <slangasek> NCommander: I'm pretty sure that "we have too many MOTU and want a reason to expel some" is not the problem
[06:04] <NCommander> slangasek, it was more motivation to get them in teams ;-)
[06:04]  * NCommander wasn't serious
[06:04] <LaserJock> I'm not happy with the delays either
[06:04] <NCommander> OTOH, that was the only way we got people to show up at company meetings at my fire company
[06:04] <LaserJock> which make mailing lists difficult
[06:04] <persia> Many MOTU are doing things other than coordinating policy or participating in governance teams.  That is a good thing, as otherwise we wouldn't be getting work done.
[06:05] <ajmitch> I suspect that many MOTUs just don't care about such things
[06:05] <NCommander> Most probably want to package/patch/do MOTU things then deal with the ugly necessity of politics
[06:05] <persia> Right, which is understandable, fair, and probably a good thing.
[06:05]  * LaserJock is stabbed in the heart by ajmitch ;-)
[06:06] <LaserJock> so we're down to a "rule by the interested"? :-)
[06:06] <NCommander> Well, meetings are always open to all, and the list can always be used to respond, so it may not be the biggest issue that only a handful of people attend the meetings
[06:06] <ajmitch> LaserJock: isn't that usually the way?
[06:06] <persia> The worry is about a tyranny of the minority, which strikes me as less bad than a tyranny of the majority, as long as the minority is both interested and there is sufficient transparency that anyone who is affected by a given issue can address it.
[06:06] <NCommander> THat being said, I wouldn't have been aware of a meeting tonight if persia didn't say anything
[06:06] <ajmitch> people don't care until the rules get in the way
[06:07] <persia> ajmitch: Which is part of why we don't have that many rules
[06:07] <persia> NCommander: Which is why I send announcements and poke people about meetings
[06:07] <LaserJock> persia: if we had a culture where it was an OK thing to question the voting results and possibly escalate to the MC then I'm pretty happy with MOTU Meetings
[06:07] <NCommander> persia, you sent an annoucement to the list?
[06:07]  * ajmitch couldn't bring himself to read through those long posts on the list about voting systems
[06:08] <persia> LaserJock: I'd be happy to see such a culture.
[06:08] <StevenK> ajmitch: Smack a little of -project
[06:08] <persia> Mind you, I think most things don't require escalation to MC, but just review by MOTU generally.
[06:08] <LaserJock> persia: granted
[06:09] <NCommander> It would be easy to just attach a stinky signature at the end of each minutes that ("If you have issues or concerns about this, please feel free to post, we're not set in stone, etc.)
[06:09]  * persia has an agenda to reduce the MC role in MOTU affairs, just for disclosure
[06:09] <NCommander> By explicately opening the floor to comments, and critisms, it does wonders for moral
[06:09] <persia> NCommander: perhaps, but that ought be implied, no?
[06:09]  * persia wants to avoid disclaimers, weaseling, etc.
[06:09] <NCommander> persia, I would have never questioned the minutes as posted
[06:10] <NCommander> It goes against everything else I've done, both in real life, and in Debian
[06:10] <LaserJock> NCommander: that's ok, you come from Debian ;-)
[06:10] <NCommander> By having a reminder, it lowers the bar significantly
[06:10] <NCommander> But its the same way for me in the fire service
[06:10] <NCommander> I personally don't see the harm in having something like "As always, comments, or concerns can be freely discussed on the list"
[06:11] <persia> I guess, I just think that any responsible party with interest ought state their views.
[06:11] <NCommander> I'm no MOTU, and I don't always feel right posting on the list despite being experienced (IMHO), in working on these things
[06:11] <persia> I'd rather that everyone always felt free to question things, rather than needing to have any disclaimers on *every* email to ubuntu-motu@
[06:11] <LaserJock> NCommander: we'll tell you when to shut up ;-)
[06:12] <persia> (or likely won't)
[06:12] <NCommander> persia, a lot of people will allow minor things to slide, so when a major issue that finally causes a stink, you also have any lingering resentment from previous issues that weren't brought up
[06:12]  * NCommander again points to dpkg on d-devel
[06:13] <StevenK> ubuntu-motu is NOT debian-devel
[06:13] <NCommander> I'm aware of that
[06:13] <persia> NCommander: Indeed, but that's part of why we don't have that many rules, and it's also one of the ways in which we're different than Debian: most of the minor things are discussed on IRC and resolved.
[06:13] <StevenK> Please stop comparing the two :-)
[06:13] <NCommander> diff doesn't work on mailing lists :-/
[06:13] <StevenK> If Mark Ray subscribes to -motu, I'm unsubscribing
[06:13]  * NCommander runs
[06:14] <StevenK> Hopefully, NCommander gets the joke.
[06:14] <slangasek> ..twitch
[06:14]  * NCommander watches it fly over his head, and land in LaserJock's eye]
[06:14] <StevenK> Bwahaha
[06:14] <persia> Anyway, back on topic.
[06:14] <ajmitch> StevenK: Debian builds character :)
[06:15] <persia> So, Do people like the new process?  Did they prefer the old process?
[06:15] <StevenK> Or leads to insanity
[06:15] <NCommander> ajmitch, they used to say that about child beatings too
[06:15] <LaserJock> persia: old process is MOTU Meetings?
[06:15] <persia> LaserJock: Yes, what we did before the shepherding guidelines.
[06:15] <slangasek> StevenK: you're not fooling us, we know you were like that before you were a DD
[06:15] <StevenK> persia: We got sidetracked, put sticky on old and new?
[06:16] <StevenK> slangasek: Uh huh :-P
[06:16] <StevenK> Then I blame #linux/IRCNet
[06:16] <persia> Bah.
[06:16] <NCommander> I personally think the new process needs documentation
[06:16] <persia> OK.  Old process was to make decisions in MOTU Meetings.
[06:16] <LaserJock> well, I like the old process better, but wasn't there a reason to to try the new one first?
[06:16] <NCommander> LaserJock, I think it was the low turnout for meetings
[06:16] <persia> New process is undocumented, but involves sending mail to the ML, discussing in a MOTU Meeting and appointing a shepherd, and discussing in the ML again until the shepherd believes there is consensus.
[06:17] <LaserJock> as I recall the new process came out of concerns about the legitimacy of the the results of the old process
[06:17] <NCommander> Well
[06:17] <persia> The reason to try the new process was that it was presented, and nobody disagreed with trying it.
[06:17] <LaserJock> i.e. 3 people deciding for the whole team
[06:17] <NCommander> Why don't we simply change it that issues was coming in the meeting are put to a vote
[06:17] <NCommander> It goes to the list
[06:17] <NCommander> If there are no objections, when the next meeting comes around, its made offical
[06:17] <persia> NCommander: Because voting is bad.
[06:18] <NCommander> persia, normally I'd agree
[06:18]  * persia much prefers compromise and consensus to voting on which is the least worst of two proposals
[06:18]  * NCommander would point out the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter
[06:18] <NCommander> That arguement falls apart on MOTU :-)
[06:18] <LaserJock> persia: true
[06:18] <persia> That said, I'm not sure we need such a complex method to establish consensus, but I'm not hearing that others share my view.
[06:19] <NCommander> What happens if something gets deadlocked
[06:19] <NCommander> As a programmer, I want to avoid race conditions at all cost ;-)
[06:19] <LaserJock> in almost all cases where I've disputed a proposal with somebody the end result of consensus and compromise was better
[06:19] <persia> NCommander: If it's truly deadlocked, it gets escalated to MC.
[06:19] <persia> (with either the NEW or the OLD process)
[06:19] <NCommander> THe shepard I assume can call the issue deadlocked
[06:20] <LaserJock> i.e. 2 heads are better than picking 1 ;-)
[06:20] <persia> Maybe: there isn't any documentation of the new process beyond the initial proposal.
[06:20] <NCommander> I personally like the new purposal
[06:20] <NCommander> I say stay with it for now, properly document
[06:20] <NCommander> And bring it up in a month for another review
[06:20] <persia> So, who is going to document it?  The last assigned party (ScottK) didn't.
[06:21] <LaserJock> has the new process given us a single result so far?
[06:21] <persia> LaserJock: No.
[06:21] <NCommander> I have an allergic reaction to wikis (I was scared by wikipedia)
[06:21] <NCommander> LaserJock, I'm not saying we stay with it, but lets document it, and try it at least until the resolution of the MOTU team issue
[06:21] <persia> NCommander: That will be resolved before the next meeting anyway, right?
[06:21] <LaserJock> NCommander: and I say ditch as soon as we can ;-)
[06:21] <StevenK> NCommander: You sound like my manager.
[06:22] <NCommander> I'm waiting for the end of the meeting to fire off the u-motu email
[06:22] <ajmitch> aha, dholbach arrives
[06:22] <NCommander> StevenK, is that a good or bad thing
[06:22] <LaserJock> everybody run!
[06:22] <NCommander> I'm a firefighter, I'm used to taking charge, and working under pressure
[06:22]  * ajmitch hides behind Hobbsee 
[06:22] <dholbach> hi ajmitch :)
[06:22] <ScottK> I'll document it.
[06:22]  * ScottK couldn't sleep.
[06:22] <StevenK> NCommander: Neither, I'm just commenting "I have an allergic reaction to wikis" sounds like him
[06:22] <LaserJock> I just think we're way over engineering this thing
[06:23] <StevenK> ScottK: You were so worried we were going to approve something you didn't like, weren't you?
[06:23] <NCommander> StevenK, well, the one that powers wiki.ubuntu|debain.org
[06:23] <NCommander> I love mediawiki
[06:23] <LaserJock> the vast majority of "decisions" are non-controversial and easy to do
[06:23] <ScottK> StevenK: No.  I'll just ignore it if I dno't like it.
[06:23] <StevenK> NCommander: That's MoinMoin
[06:23] <NCommander> StevenK, I loath it, its slow and bloated
[06:23] <NCommander> mediawiki FTW
[06:24] <StevenK> NCommander: Why, because it has more security issues than sendmail and firefox combined?
[06:24] <LaserJock> ....wandering
[06:24] <StevenK> And isn't it *choke* PHP?
[06:24] <ScottK> I was gonna say ...
[06:24] <ScottK> Even less secure than the PHP it's built on and that's an achievement.
[06:24] <StevenK> Sorry, NCommander made me charge
[06:25] <LaserJock> well, I'm going to bed
[06:25] <ScottK> Good night.
[06:25] <ScottK> Fundamentally we had the problem of time zone spread.
[06:25] <ScottK> It isn't feasible to get everyone at every meeting.
[06:26] <NCommander> I dunno, it always seems to be the same set of faces
[06:26] <ScottK> So you either have to do two meetings, exclude people, or take it to the ML.
[06:26] <LaserJock> my summary: voting stinks, be collaborative, be respectful, work out a rough consensus and go for it
[06:26] <NCommander> And isn't being an insommic or having a sleep disorder a requirement to being an MOTU? ;-)
[06:26] <NCommander> ...
[06:26] <LaserJock> gnight
[06:26]  * NCommander breaks free of his Debian programming and agrees with LaserJock 
[06:26] <ScottK> I don't normally make this one but due to me not being able to sleep ...
[06:26] <LaserJock> NCommander: we're called MOTUHolics
[06:26] <persia> Right.  So, getting back to the topic.
[06:26]  * ScottK smacks NCommander in the head so he feels at home.
[06:27] <persia> What I see is 1) ScottK will document the new process
[06:27] <persia> 2) We'll review again in a month
[06:27] <NCommander> ScottK, that's nothing. I'm used to being **** raped by people on Debian
[06:27] <persia> Has anyone said anything else of interst?
[06:27] <persia> Hobbsee: Can you [ACTION] ScottK on that?
[06:27] <ScottK> persia: Where am I supposed to document this?
[06:27]  * NCommander resists the urge to make a joke at persia's expense
[06:27] <StevenK> NCommander: Geez
[06:28] <Hobbsee> [action] ScottK will document the new process
[06:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK will document the new process
[06:28] <persia> ScottK: MOTU/Meetings would be a good place: as part of the instructions on adding something to the agenda.
[06:28] <Hobbsee> [action] We'll review again in a month
[06:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  We'll review again in a month
[06:28] <ScottK> Hobbsee: And action persia to remind me again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
[06:28] <NCommander> StevenK, what? I run dak, I like pain. Normal abuse doesn't work on me
[06:28] <persia> Maybe have the full process on the wiki somewhere, and a link.;
[06:28] <NCommander> My first real programming language was COBOL
[06:28] <NCommander> And not just cobol, but Cobol on win32 ;-)
[06:28] <ScottK> Bah.  Win32 didn't exist when I was doing COBOL.
[06:29] <persia> So, unless there's something else relevant, I'm done with my topic, and hand control back to the chair.
[06:29] <StevenK> ScottK: Neither did LCDs
[06:29] <NCommander> I'd like to bring up something
[06:29] <StevenK> Or the bible
[06:29] <ScottK> StevenK: Not even CDs.
[06:29] <Hobbsee> [action] persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
[06:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
[06:29] <NCommander> The wiki says I should bring up any nominations for UUC here
[06:29] <persia> Erm, where?
[06:29] <ScottK> NCommander: That's MOTU Council, not here.
[06:29] <NCommander> oh
[06:30] <persia> Wait, where on the wiki does it say this?
[06:30] <StevenK> MOTU Meeting != MOTU Council
[06:30] <NCommander> SO no [vote] NCommander for UUC? ;-)
[06:30] <NCommander> persia, I misread
[06:30] <persia> No, no such vote.
[06:30] <StevenK> -1
[06:30] <StevenK> Aww
[06:30] <NCommander> ack
[06:30]  * StevenK hides
[06:30] <NCommander> .... COBOL for .Net
[06:30]  * NCommander stabs StevenK 
[06:30]  * StevenK resists
[06:31] <NCommander> THE POWER OF COBOL COMPELS YOU
[06:31] <persia> Erm, this is the official meeting log, and will be reviewed by many...
[06:31] <Hobbsee> [topic] next meeting time
[06:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting time
[06:31] <NCommander> ahem
[06:31]  * NCommander hides
[06:31] <ajmitch> persia: best that they see the true side of the UUC candidate
[06:31] <StevenK> Haha
[06:31] <NCommander> I'm screwed
[06:32] <ScottK> NCommander: No.  That's Debian.  You already explained that to us.
[06:32] <persia> Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC right?
[06:32] <ScottK> Sounds right.
[06:32] <NCommander> ScottK, well, my NM application moved again, so I dunno
[06:32] <Hobbsee> [agreed] Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC
[06:32] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC
[06:32]  * ajmitch should prepare himself mentally for RMS' visit in a week or so
[06:33] <Hobbsee> [topic] any other business
[06:33] <persia> NCommander: Please take to #ubuntu-motu or elsewhere
[06:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  any other business
[06:33] <NCommander> Next REVU day?
[06:33] <NCommander> THere hasn't been one in awhile
[06:33] <persia> That's up to nixternal
[06:33]  * ajmitch must leave now, farewell all
[06:33] <NCommander> Ok
[06:34] <persia> Mind you, someone else could volunteer to be REVU Coordinator: as nixternal did call for help.
[06:34]  * NCommander would voluteer
[06:34] <ScottK> NCommander: Go see nixternal.
[06:34] <NCommander> nixternal, ping
[06:34] <persia> NCommander: Try #ubuntu-MOTU at UTC-6 friendly times
[06:34] <NCommander> Yeah
[06:35] <NCommander> Ok, I've got nothing I can think of offhand
[06:35]  * NCommander flips through the list to see if there was anything recently
[06:35] <nxvl> i'm also interested on revu coordination
[06:35] <nxvl> :D
[06:36] <persia> Right, people should go poke nixternal.
[06:36] <persia> Is there anything else?  We're already well overtime.
[06:36] <dholbach> more REVU Coordinators! :)
[06:36] <StevenK> So an [action] people poke nixternal  ?
[06:37] <nxvl> StevenK: nah
[06:37] <NCommander> Yeah, sounds right
[06:37] <Hobbsee> [action] people poke nixternal
[06:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  people poke nixternal
[06:37] <NCommander> Actually
[06:37] <nxvl> dholbach: hi!
[06:37] <StevenK> Haha
[06:37] <persia> Well, there's only one REVU Coordinator, but no reason not to have a REVU team.
[06:37] <Hobbsee> [action] make nixternal stop using vista in the process
[06:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  make nixternal stop using vista in the process
[06:37] <NCommander> ds
[06:37] <NCommander> *ew
[06:37] <NCommander> Coding on REVU from Vista should be against ubuntuwire TOS
[06:37] <NCommander> But for another time
[06:37] <NCommander> But I'd like the notion of a REVU team
[06:38] <NCommander> Or more like absorbing revu-admins as an offical ubuntu-revu-team
[06:38] <StevenK> Maybe that can be expressed as something else
[06:39] <StevenK> Like admins of the UUC team
[06:39] <StevenK> (Just an idea)
[06:39] <persia> REVU hacking and REVU Coordination are very distinct, and for a reason.
[06:39] <NCommander> Well, define REVU coordination
[06:39] <persia> It's usually not the same people who want to make REVU better as push more applications through REVU (although there is overlap)
[06:39] <persia> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Leaders
[06:39]  * NCommander snaps fingers
[06:40] <NCommander> There is something I'd like to bring up for discussion, which is something ScottK's talked about for awhile, and that is packages are not getting back to Debian, and the MOTU's load on supporting keeps going up constantly
[06:41] <NCommander> If packages go upstream to debian, we can at least get some help from debian-qa, as well as their porting teams
[06:41] <ScottK> Personally I think we ought to be more aggressive about pitching out unmaintained cruft.
[06:41] <NCommander> Very few people run ubuntu popcon (I didn't even know it existed), so we don't have a great measure on package usage unless I'm mistaken
[06:42] <StevenK> ScottK: ++
[06:42] <NCommander> And there are packages, like my nrss one which hasn't any upstream releses because the author considers it feature complete, and there are no (known) lingering bugs
[06:42] <ScottK> If it's not broken, I don't care if it's old.
[06:43] <NCommander> define broken
[06:43] <persia> NCommander: If you'd like to revive DCT, it would be greatly appreciated.
[06:43] <NCommander> DCT?
[06:43] <slangasek> NCommander: er, we have half a million hits
[06:43] <NCommander> (or utubtu)
[06:43] <persia> ScottK: Mostly that needs some way of identifying which packages meet those criteria: if a list could be made public, we'd be in a much better position to chase them.
[06:43] <ScottK> I think Utunbu largely achieved it's goals.
[06:44]  * Hobbsee goes afk for a while
[06:44] <NCommander> Why was it disbanded, if Utunbu was still around, I'd had someone in that group assist me getting my packages into the debian archives
[06:44] <ScottK> persia: One think I think we need to do is look at Main --> Universe transitions and work on finishing the job in the next release.
[06:44] <persia> NCommander: DCT is the companion group within Ubuntu that matches Utnubu within Debian.  Utnubu has done most of it's work, but DCT still needs to work on pushing stuff back cleanly.
[06:44] <persia> ScottK: Makes sense.
[06:44] <ScottK> NCommander: IIRC it was more about tool integration than moving packages.
[06:44]  * ScottK notes, for example, that we still have slpheed-gtk1 and sylpheed packages.
[06:45] <NCommander> Well, I think talking about the increasing number of ubuntu packages warrents a chat
[06:45] <NCommander> Maybe during archive freezes is a good time to nominate packages for removal; and if no one steps up to update them, they go at the next release
[06:45] <NCommander> AFAIK, there is no policy like that in place
[06:45] <ScottK> I also think we ought to be able to come up with a metric for one time only upload, buggy and so we get rid of it.
[06:46] <ScottK> NCommander: The policy now is more like if you're motivated you file a bug and convince an archive admin.
[06:46] <NCommander> SOme packages maybe one time only, nrss over three years has gotten two releases
[06:46] <ScottK> Right, but not buggy.
[06:47] <persia> OK.  We're now 45 minutes over.  Does this need to be discussed as MOTU Meeting, or can it be addressed in #ubuntu-motu later?
[06:47] <NCommander> ScottK, that's rather ad-hoc, but if was a goal for things to be done during a freeze, (like form a team of people who review a block of universe), and nominate for removes
[06:47] <ScottK> Actually, as a matter of policy I'd prefer that individual maintainers be required for packages not in Debian.
[06:47] <NCommander> persia, its called progress, is there really much reason to stop chatting if things are getting done
[06:47] <ScottK> Chair could endmeeting.
[06:47] <persia> Except that others may want to have a meeting, and we shouldn't do it here.
[06:47] <NCommander> And Hobbsee's is AFK, we can't end the meeting :-)
[06:48] <NCommander> The point is mute until Hobbsee comes back
[06:48] <ScottK> persia: What do you think about individual maintainers for packages not in Debian.
[06:48] <persia> ScottK: I'm very strongly against the idea.
[06:48] <ScottK> Why?
[06:48] <persia> But I think we should have this discussion in #ubuntu-motu
[06:48] <ScottK> OK.
[06:48] <persia> Ask me there, and I'll explain.
[06:49] <NCommander> Hobbsee, when you get this, please closemeeting
[06:49] <Hobbsee> [closemeeting]
[06:49] <Hobbsee> [close meeting]
[06:49] <Hobbsee> [endmeeting]
[06:49] <persia> #ndmeeting
[06:49] <Hobbsee> #endmeeting
[06:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 00:53.
[06:49] <Hobbsee> there we are!
[06:49] <StevenK> Heh
[12:34] <steve555> Hi everyone.
[15:00] <nizarus> boredandblogging: here ?
[15:41] <boredandblogging> nizarus: hi
[15:41] <nizarus> hi boredandblogging
[15:42] <nizarus> i need an advice if you a are free
[15:42] <boredandblogging> nizarus: lets do it in #ubuntu-tn
[15:58] <pitti> hi
[15:59]  * slangasek waves
[15:59] <cjwatson> good afternoon
[16:00] <cjwatson> slangasek: I'm fighting (non-intrepid-relevant) fires at the moment, will mostly be lurking
[16:01] <slangasek> understood
[16:01] <dendrobates> o/
[16:01] <slangasek> 'morning :)
[16:02] <pgraner> slangasek: morning
[16:03] <slangasek> ok, doesn't appear that davidm is around; let's go ahead and get started without him then
[16:03] <slangasek> lool: (are you here, by chance?)
[16:04] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:08. The chair is slangasek.
[16:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:04]  * ScottK is here for motu-release (if needed).
[16:05] <slangasek> [TOPIC] outstanding items from last week
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding items from last week
[16:05] <cjwatson> davidm sent me mail not that long ago
[16:05] <slangasek> I know the status of most of what was on that list, because they were assigned to me ;)
[16:05] <slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-31
[16:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-31
[16:06] <slangasek> there's the list of action items from last week
[16:06] <slangasek> dendrobates: do you know the status of openldap 2.4.11?
[16:06] <slangasek> I had spoken with mathiaz about it and encouraged him to go ahead, but I don't know where he is with that
[16:06] <dendrobates> slangasek: mathiaz is working on it, I am not sure if it will make it though.
[16:07] <slangasek> ok
[16:07] <slangasek> I've spoken with pgraner about the kernel package split; cjwatson, I can brain dump to you later, see if there are any outstanding concerns, but the archive uninstallability list is certainly a lot cleaner now
[16:08] <cjwatson> it is indeed, thanks
[16:08] <slangasek> and I talked to Riddell about Kubuntu bugs - we still have one outstanding for alpha-4 which he's working on
[16:08] <pitti> I worked hard on archive maintenance today, I think I'll get the list close to 0 for a4
[16:08] <pitti> at least the bits which affect the CDs
[16:08] <cjwatson> how is component-mismatches doing? (maybe later)
[16:09] <pitti> in fact, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html already looks good enough for a4
[16:09] <slangasek> pgraner sent me some kernel blurbs for the technical overview, which I haven't committed yet - I have several technical overview items that I still need to follow through on, but overall we seem to be making progress there compared with previous milestones
[16:09] <pitti> cjwatson: I sorted out binary de/promotions and source/binary demotions, and some 10 source promotions, but it's a loooong list
[16:09] <slangasek> dendrobates: mathiaz hasn't given me anything to use as a blurb for samba 3.2; can you follow up with him?
[16:10] <dendrobates> yes, he is on holiday, but I will ask him asap.
[16:10] <slangasek> "before Wednesday" is probably sufficient :)
[16:10] <slangasek> [ACTION] dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview
[16:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview
[16:11] <slangasek> we've made some progress on CD sizing, although entirely not in the area we were originally expecting to
[16:11]  * bryce waves
[16:11] <slangasek> my thanks to seb128, for uploading a new libgweather upstream that stuck out like a sore thumb :-)
[16:11] <cjwatson> the uncompressed Packages file bit got blocked by bug 255545
[16:11] <pitti> the recent seed cleanup was apparently completely eaten up by other noise :(
[16:11] <mvo> I can have a look at this bug today
[16:11] <mvo> (not promising to fix it today ;)
[16:12] <cjwatson> mvo: yeah, it didn't look trivial
[16:12] <cjwatson> or I might have just fixed it myself ...
[16:12]  * mvo nods
[16:13] <cjwatson> I think Luke looked into sound downsizing for himself, from what I saw in scrollback
[16:13] <slangasek> yes
[16:13] <slangasek> that would still be a nice-to-have for alpha-4, but not critical
[16:13] <seb128> slangasek: thanks for doing the change to use gettext ;-)
[16:14] <slangasek> we definitely don't want to get too close to the crunch time before landing the sound changes, since we're not sure that all the users of the sounds will handle different formats well
[16:14] <cjwatson> just pinged him on #ubuntu-devel
[16:15] <slangasek> that's it for outstanding items; let's go around and see what everyone has cooking this week
[16:15] <seb128> GNOME sound effects are broken in ubuntu at the moment
[16:15] <slangasek> (mixing up the order a bit, based on external time constraints)
[16:16] <seb128> ah, it's about downsizing those, ignore me ;-)
[16:16] <slangasek> and btw, mdz sends his apologies for this week, he's traveling today
[16:16] <slangasek> [TOPIC] desktop team
[16:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  desktop team
[16:16] <slangasek> seb128: but that sounds like an appropriate point to start on anyway :)
[16:17] <slangasek> pitti, seb128: anything that /should/ be regarded as a blocker for alpha-4 from your side, but isn't?
[16:17] <pitti> not from my side, AFAICS
[16:17] <slangasek> note that the list of blockers is currently not very list-like: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
[16:17] <slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
[16:17] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
[16:17] <pitti> the gnome-keyring ssh bug is fixed (that was on last meeting's list)
[16:17] <slangasek> saw that, thanks :)
[16:17] <seb128> the "reboot and halt doesn't work" is annoying but out of that no
[16:18] <pitti> and the shutdown/reboot failure is a more tricky thing
[16:18] <pitti> but since you can do it from gdm, it shouldn't be much of a problem
[16:18] <pitti> and suspend to disk/ram works, too :)
[16:19] <slangasek> yes, I believe the reboot/halt bug has been retargetted to alpha-5
[16:19] <pitti> camera handling is back to sanity, and mounting of usb disks as well
[16:19] <pitti> so, I think we are ready for a4
[16:19] <pitti> apport has been re-enabled by default, that might be something for the release notes
[16:20] <seb128> we have no sounds events as said before but I don't think that's a blocker
[16:20] <pitti> still no langpacks, but nothing we can do about it on our side :(
[16:20] <slangasek> pitti: tkamppeter has a pair of blueprints targetted for alpha-4; do you know if there's more work pending on those which may be disruptive between now and Thursday?
[16:20] <pitti> seb128: I consider that a bug fix ... :-P
[16:20] <seb128> ;-)
[16:20] <pitti> slangasek: the pdf printing workflow?
[16:20] <pitti> slangasek: I talked about that with him, and it needs some packaging fixes
[16:20] <pitti> slangasek: but whether it lands or not, it won't be disruptive
[16:21] <slangasek> printerdriverautodownload, and pdf-as-standard-print-job-format
[16:21] <slangasek> ok
[16:21] <pitti> slangasek: ah, p-d-a-d won't make it
[16:21] <slangasek> hmm, I mean to nominate bug #255485
[16:21] <pitti> pdf-print-format might land on Monday, dpeending on his progress of cleaning up the packaging
[16:21] <pitti> sounds like spam email :)
[16:21] <slangasek> there, now it's a bit more list-like :-)
[16:22] <slangasek> 255485 is that ghostscript has now superseded gsfonts, but still depends on it, so now we have two copies of the fonts on the CD
[16:22] <pitti> does tkamppeter know? sounds like his area
[16:22] <slangasek> yes, he's followed up to the bug
[16:23] <slangasek> pitti: can you coordinate with him to try to get that fixed for alpha-4?
[16:23] <slangasek> (or to postpone it, if we need to)
[16:23] <pitti> slangasek: will do, assigning to him and will talk to him
[16:23] <slangasek> anything else on the desktop side?
[16:24]  * pitti is fine
[16:24] <pitti> seb128: ?
[16:24]  * seb128 is fine too
[16:24] <slangasek> [TOPIC] kernel team
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  kernel team
[16:24] <slangasek> pgraner: how are things in kernel space?
[16:25] <pgraner> BenC: has been working it this week, I'll let him respond, Ben?
[16:25] <BenC> kernel space is good
[16:25] <BenC> I plan an upload later tonight
[16:26] <slangasek> any ABI changes between now and Thursday?
[16:26] <BenC> slangasek: doesn't look like it at this point
[16:26] <pitti> BenC: do we already have 2.6.26.1, btw?
[16:26] <BenC> we are pretty stable, and mainly in bug fix mode only now
[16:26] <BenC> pitti: .2 will be coming tonight
[16:26] <slangasek> cool
[16:26] <pitti> I guess nobody has a clue about that usplash mess, so we'll postpone that?
[16:27] <SEJeff> BenC, Will the intel gem kernel based mode setting be backported from .27?
[16:27] <BenC> I've been looking into the gfx weirdness with uvesafb, if that's what you mean
[16:27] <BenC> SEJeff: I'm looking into it (and I don't think it's in .27 anyway)
[16:27] <slangasek> pitti: it's aesthetically nasty, but doesn't need to block the alpha; we of course should have it fixed before beta...
[16:27] <SEJeff> Actually you're right, but it will be in f10. Thanks
[16:28] <BenC> atleast not in -rc2
[16:28] <slangasek> [TOPIC] foundations team
[16:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  foundations team
[16:29] <slangasek> cjwatson:
[16:29] <cjwatson> X input hotplugging is in, though the introduction was a little rough, breaking cursor key mappings in particular
[16:29] <cjwatson> network-manager 0.7 is in and working for me ;-)
[16:30] <cjwatson> (I think Timo has fixed the input hotplugging bug, BTW)
[16:30] <slangasek> we should have viable desktop CDs now with NM 0.7 on them; time to get some coordinated testing of that?
[16:30] <cjwatson> asac: could you mail ubuntu-devel-announce with directions for testing, please?
[16:30] <pitti> n-m 0.7 WFM, too, although it breaks the RF kill switch
[16:31] <cjwatson> compcache is unlikely to make alpha 4 at this point; Oliver is off sick
[16:31] <pitti> very smooth upgrade, congrats asac! not a sigle network outage during upgrade, and proper conffile handling, too
[16:31] <cjwatson> I would try to rescue it, but I'm looking at some of the more urgent irons Oliver had in the fire at the moment instead
[16:31] <cjwatson> so I think we should defer that to alpha 5
[16:32] <cjwatson> otherwise nothing major, most of the big installer things are waiting for Evan to get back from vacation
[16:32] <cjwatson> note that neither Evan nor I will be available next week, so please try not to have any installer bugs kthxbye
[16:32] <slangasek> :-)
[16:32] <cjwatson> I'm just shoving ubiquity 1.9.8 up the pipe now
[16:33] <slangasek> I would offer to stand in, but I'm not available either... :)
[16:33] <cjwatson> nothing huge there, though
[16:33] <cjwatson> that's all from me
[16:33] <slangasek> the milestoned-not-targetted bugs for alpha-4 seem to be mostly OOo, which calc has mentioned he expects to slip to alpha-5
[16:34] <pitti> seems I'm the last man standing next week, with everyone else being at debconf? :-)
[16:35] <cjwatson> oh, I'm not at debconf, I'm just away :)
[16:35] <seb128> pitti: I'll be here too
[16:35] <slangasek> pitti: not all at DebConf, but spread pretty thin :)
[16:35]  * pitti hugs seb128
[16:35]  * seb128 hugs pitti ;-)
[16:35] <slangasek> [TOPIC] server team
[16:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  server team
[16:35] <slangasek> dendrobates: hi
[16:36] <dendrobates> slangasek: we have no blockers.
[16:36] <slangasek> any exciting non-blockers that are being worked on between now and alpha-4?
[16:36] <dendrobates> yes
[16:36] <dendrobates> landscape-client
[16:37] <dendrobates> new likewise-open
[16:37] <dendrobates> tomcat6.x
[16:37] <pitti> slangasek: do we still do long wiki pages for annoucing alphas, with the new features? (I need to collect those in this case)
[16:38] <pitti> dendrobates: time to announce ecryptfs-utils as well, now that it's in main?
[16:38] <slangasek> dendrobates: are any of these landing before the alpha, and if so, what day?
[16:38] <pitti> kirkland's pride
[16:38] <cjwatson> dendrobates: there's Dustin's boot-degraded-raid work, too? partly landed
[16:38] <dendrobates> pitti: yes. good idea.
[16:38] <slangasek> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex/TechnicalOverview; I owe some content there :)
[16:38] <dendrobates> cjwatson: yes moslty done.
[16:39] <slangasek> dendrobates: speaking of ecryptfs-utils - is that still blocking on me on the PAM side?  I'm making good progress on PAM and expect to have that land late next week, where pam module packages can start using the new framework
[16:39] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: I'm hoping to have all of the degraded raid stuff in alpha4 for some real installation testing
[16:39] <slangasek> kirkland: nice :)
[16:39] <cjwatson> kirkland: that's just blocking on this grub patch I need to review, right?
[16:40] <slangasek> that's the patch for 33649?
[16:40] <kirkland> cjwatson: plus on more tiny debconf patch.... i'd like the installer to ask the user if they want to boot degraded, or not (with the default remaining NOT)
[16:40] <cjwatson> slangasek: yeah
[16:41] <kirkland> cjwatson: i'm hoping you can identify someone that can review/sponsor that bit in your absence next week?
[16:41] <cjwatson> kirkland: hmm, that sounds more delicate and might have to wait
[16:41] <cjwatson> all the people I'd normally ask are away
[16:41]  * kirkland yields
[16:41] <slangasek> I had some feedback on the 33649 patch, myself
[16:41] <slangasek> so I'll follow up with kirkland today
[16:41] <pitti> slangasek: intrepid-device-permissions is also blocking on the PAM stuff, for the record
[16:41] <cjwatson> slangasek: oh, thanks
[16:41] <slangasek> pitti: right
[16:42] <cjwatson> kirkland: maybe we can sort that out face-to-face week-after-next
[16:42] <asac> cjwatson: sure. i wanted to wait for initial "hard-regression" reports before calling for testing.
[16:42] <slangasek> asac: well, if we don't test it /before/ alpha-4, we're sure to get more reports than we want /from/ alpha-4 :)
[16:43] <asac> slangasek: thats not what i ment
[16:43] <asac> slangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;)
[16:43] <slangasek> asac: ok :)
[16:44] <slangasek> dendrobates: anything else we need to cover with you?
[16:45] <dendrobates> slangasek: I think we are done,
[16:45] <slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
[16:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
[16:45] <heno> Nothing major on our radar
[16:45] <slangasek> heno: it looks like there's been some activity around the smoke testing, in spite of our image size problems?
[16:46] <heno> we have been smoketesting ISOs indeed
[16:46] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DailySmoke
[16:46] <heno> they now seem to work :)
[16:46] <slangasek> :)
[16:47] <heno> davmor2 uses dvd images I believe
[16:47] <heno> dvd medium rather
[16:47] <slangasek> you highlighted bug #253686 last week; davmor2 told me the other day that all of his regressions were now fixed, so maybe this needs followed up
[16:48] <slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
[16:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
[16:49] <heno> I'll look at that with him
[16:49] <slangasek> as a general QA note (but not directed solely at heno :), the number of bugs targetted to intrepid as a whole seems to be going up... so anyone with time to kill... :)
[16:49] <slangasek> heno: anything else you can think of?
[16:50] <heno> no. I have comments about the number of SRUs we are sing in Hardy still, but that's OT :)
[16:50] <heno> *seeing
[16:51] <slangasek> ok
[16:51] <slangasek> mobile team not here; I assume that means we're happy with whatever we do for alpha-4 :-)
[16:51] <slangasek> [TOPIC] motu-release
[16:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  motu-release
[16:51] <slangasek> ScottK: hi, what's new in the universe?
[16:52] <ScottK> It's pretty quiet.
[16:52] <ScottK> The big topic recently has been cruft removal
[16:52]  * slangasek nods
[16:52] <ScottK> Or: How do we keep Universe maintainable when it grows and we don't have more MOTU.
[16:52] <pitti> I saw some transitional uploads for NBS packages, thanks
[16:53] <ScottK> I think there is probably some process work around hinting to us that X is dropped to Universe, you may want to look at pushing it on out.
[16:53] <slangasek> sure
[16:54] <ScottK> REVU of new packages is very slow this cycle, so it'll probably be not a huge number of new packages for Intrepid.
[16:55] <ScottK> That's a good way to get new contributors involved, so I have mixed feelings.
[16:55] <ScottK> That's it really.
[16:56] <slangasek> pitti mentioned transitional rebuilds for NBS; is that going well generally, and is there coordination being done?
[16:56] <slangasek> (or does coordination need to be done?)
[16:56] <ScottK> I think so far it's been interested individuals.
[16:57] <slangasek> do you think we would benefit from a concerted effort?
[16:57] <ScottK> I think we should do it earlier.
[16:57] <slangasek> (I think the answer is yes because I have to look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ once a week :)
[16:57] <slangasek> (or more often)
[16:57]  * pitti works on that every Friday
[16:57] <persia> Historically universe NBS has been a post FF thing, although there are persistent efforts to make it a post DIF thing.
[16:58] <pitti> but I don't do many transitional uploads, I mainly look for stuff to kill
[16:58] <ScottK> Perhaps we should talk with ubuntu-qa about tools to expose the work needing done better.
[16:58] <ScottK> We have many energetic young contributors that we need to point in a useful direction.
[16:58] <slangasek> ok
[16:59] <slangasek> we can probably discuss that further off-line?
[16:59] <ScottK> Sure
[16:59] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)
[16:59]  * pitti has to leave now, sorry; I'll read scrollback
[16:59] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)
[16:59] <slangasek> pitti: thanks :)
[17:01] <slangasek> ok, I think we've covered most of the agenda already
[17:01] <slangasek> we did have one carry-over from last week that didn't fit in time, and hasn't been dealt with out-of-band
[17:01] <slangasek> [TOPIC] scheduling 8.04.2
[17:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  scheduling 8.04.2
[17:02] <slangasek> cjwatson: do you have time to talk about this right now and any issues you see with scheduling, or should we defer this to when you're tending fewer irons?
[17:02] <cjwatson> the general idea has been to do 8.04 point releases about once every six months, time-based
[17:02] <cjwatson> however, I recognise that 8.04.1 + six months is right after Christmas, which may be a little awkward
[17:03] <cjwatson> so my suggestion would be to aim for late January, and start paying attention to preparation around mid-November
[17:03] <slangasek> yes, I agree
[17:03] <cjwatson> I don't expect the goals to be as ambitious as 8.04.1
[17:03] <cjwatson> mostly a roll-up, perhaps a few bits and pieces of hardware enablement, that kind of thing
[17:04] <cjwatson> but enough to keep it fresh
[17:04] <cjwatson> hoovering up whatever bugs have been legitimately targeted to hardy in the meantime
[17:04] <cjwatson> (I phrased that very carefully ...)
[17:04] <slangasek> do you think the 22nd or 29th would be the better target date?
[17:04] <heno> we've had quite a few SRUs come in after .1 http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
[17:05] <slangasek> I lean towards the 22nd, I think 3 weeks after New Years should be long enough to ramp back up
[17:05] <heno> so unless we get that amount again I guess most of the work is being done now in fact
[17:05] <cjwatson> I have a to-do item to send out a note to folks that .1 was a special case, and they don't need to upload quite everything they do to hardy now thank-you-very-much
[17:05] <cjwatson> 22nd is fine by me
[17:06] <heno> 22nd wfm as well
[17:06] <cjwatson> but heno should definitely sign off since he has most of the late-stage work
[17:06] <cjwatson> ok
[17:06] <sbeattie> 22nd should be fine by me as well
[17:06] <slangasek> sold then
[17:06] <slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar
[17:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar
[17:07] <slangasek> anything else for the meeting?
[17:07] <slangasek> ("AOB"?)
[17:08] <persia> I'm curious if universe flavours should send members to represent here, or do so through motu-release.
[17:08] <slangasek> I'm happy to have universe flavors represented directly
[17:09] <lool> slangasek: Hmm sorry, I was told the meeting was at 16 UTC, not 15
[17:09] <persia> OK.  I'll poke folk about that.  Presumably they should wave at the beginning of the meeting?
[17:09] <slangasek> I've unfortunately found it difficult sometimes to get in touch with xubuntu/ubuntustudio/mythbuntu folks in a timely manner in the run-up to milestones
[17:09] <lool> Glad persia was around
[17:09] <persia> lool: I didn't represent mobile though.
[17:10] <slangasek> [TOPIC] mobile team
[17:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile team
[17:10] <slangasek> lool: we're not over time ye, go ahead :)
[17:10] <lool> Nothing new ot report :-)
[17:10] <slangasek> s/ye/yet/
[17:10] <lool> I just came back from paternity leave
[17:10] <ScottK> Then I imagine there's something new.
[17:10] <lool> We discussed today the possibility to replace the hildon stack entirely for intrepid, but this seemed very risky
[17:10] <slangasek> persia: yes, having them wave at the beginning of the meeting would be helpful
[17:11] <lool> So the preferred plan is to stick to hildon stuff until it's complete then prepare a replacement
[17:12] <lool> So we shouldn't have to request particular exceptions like we did in the previous cycles; we should honor all freezes hopefully this time around :-)
[17:12] <lool> That's about all I can think of concerning release matters
[17:12] <slangasek> \o/
[17:12] <slangasek> ok, thanks for the update
[17:12] <slangasek> any /other/ other business, then?
[17:13] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[17:13] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:17.
[17:13] <slangasek> thanks, folks!
[17:14] <lool> Thanks!
[18:33] <effie_jayx> boredandblogging, ping