/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/08/08/#ubuntu-motu.txt

timothywcraneis there anyone in here who can upload Sauerbraten fixes? No updates without the fix, all have updates. Fix on launchpad board. I admit I am begging.00:07
NCommanderRainCT, ping?00:13
RainCTNCommander: pong00:13
NCommanderRainCT, if I roll the sauerbraten fixes, will you upload?00:14
RainCTNCommander: what changes are it?00:16
NCommanderI'm looking for the patch now00:16
NCommandergtg00:19
RainCTNCommander: Doesn't he mean bug 252037, which has to be processed by a core dev?00:20
ubottuLaunchpad bug 252037 in sauerbraten-data "sauerbraten cannot upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25203700:20
RainCTLaney: (it's on production now, with anchor)00:24
RainCTgood night00:25
slangasekin a cdbs package, how can I ensure that reverse-patches is only ever called after make distclean in the clean target?00:51
slangasekgoogle search seems to think that this is the default behavior for cdbs simple-patchsys00:51
RAOFI thought the default behaviour was to reverse-patches _before_ running the clean target.00:52
slangasekthat's not what https://wiki.duckcorp.org/DebianPackagingTutorial/CDBS says, for instance; and it's not a sane default either way :P00:53
slangasekah, behavior was changed in bug #38710300:53
slangasekgreat, so to support tarball-in-tarball, they've instead broken being able to patch build systems via simple-patchsys00:54
* slangasek exudes nothing but love in the direction of simple-patchsys00:54
StevenKIn the form of a rusty knife?00:54
slangasekStevenK: I was thinking "hepatitis C cultures", but ok00:55
StevenKHaha00:55
StevenKSo, a rusty syringe00:56
slangasekheh, and there's a follow-up to that bug from pitti that was never acknowledged, awesome00:56
slangasekoh, there are also follow-ups from /me/ to that bug :)00:57
StevenKHah00:57
* slangasek considers unarchiving and reopening the bug00:58
* slangasek also considers what the heck he's going to do in the short term to get libgweather working right00:58
StevenKslangasek: Ah, I was wondering.01:00
slangasekStevenK: yes, I'm not touching either cdbs or simple-patchsys by choice :-P01:00
tbielawahello to all01:06
* slangasek waves01:06
tbielawa:)01:06
slangasekmakefile-clean:: apply-patches01:14
slangasekinclude /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/simple-patchsys.mk01:14
slangasekclean::01:14
slangasek        make -f debian/rules cleanbuilddir01:14
slangasekCHEMICAL.  FIRE.01:14
slangasek<ahem>01:14
StevenKHaha01:15
slangasekso to work around simple-patchsys brokenness, we do: unpatch; patch; distclean; unpatch01:16
slangasek\o/01:16
StevenKHa01:17
StevenKWhich poor CDBS maintainer is going to feel your wrath?01:17
slangasekdo I really have to pick only one? ;)01:17
* StevenK grins01:18
slangasekoh, hah; even better, bug #424080 was fixed with a change that eliminated the reason for the bug #387103 change01:20
emgentslangasek: the true fire is bug 25581901:22
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255819 in slack "prerm will rm -rf / when /etc/slack.conf is empty" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25581901:22
emgent:)01:22
StevenKHa!01:23
slangasek... clever01:23
slangasekthis is why I never install anything with "slack" in its name01:23
emgenthahaha01:23
emgentold Legend.. Devian Vs Slackware01:23
emgents/Devian/Debian/01:24
sharmsif I want to build a package for intrepid but the clean script will fail on hardy, is there a way to tell pbuilder to skip calling make clean?01:40
RAOFsharms: Build the source package in an Intrepid chroot?01:42
sharmsI was hoping to just get away with a pdebuild command01:42
sharmssome flag like --do-make-clean-in-pbuilder-chroot01:42
RAOFHm... dpkg-buildpackage -nc doesn't run the clean target, IIRC.01:43
slangasekwhich can be used only in conjunction with -b or -B, yes01:46
sharmsah ha --use-pdebuild-internal01:48
sharms++to pbuilder docs01:49
slangasekRAOF: so, you probably work with cdbs more than I do; aside from the tarball case, is there any reason why one would be /expecting/ reverse-patches to be run before clean?01:56
slangasek(before I go patching this behavior away)01:56
greg-gI have a build question for someone.  I requested a sync for a lib (liblicense) and LP shows that it has been successfully built for Intrepid, but when clicking on the link under "resulting binaries" gives me a 40402:02
greg-ghttps://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/liblicense/0.8-1/+build/68639602:02
greg-gis there something I am missing?02:03
voriangreg-g: which binary arch?02:07
greg-g38602:08
voriandrats, irssi fail02:08
voriani see it greg-g02:08
vorianclear your cache maybe?02:09
greg-gvorian: from here?  https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/i386/liblicense3/0.8-102:09
vorianyes02:10
greg-ghmmm02:10
voriangreg-g: pm me your email, i'll send you the build log02:10
RAOFslangasek: It seems to be the most common behaviour when using debhelper? (the clean: target often depends on unpatch).  I can't think of a technical reason why you'd want that behaviour, though.02:19
slangasekRAOF: well, you want clean: to depend on unpatch because 'clean' is the policy-mandated target :)02:23
slangasekand in the debhelper case, unpatch is often done before make distclean because you're writing the rules by hand, and you generally aren't patching the build system so don't run into problems doing it this way02:23
slangasekand it's the simpler way to do it02:24
slangasekbut cdbs needs to handle the not-simple cases...02:24
RAOFRight.  clean: obviously has to do the unpatching, and in simple cases that's most easily handled by making it a dependency of clean:.  I don't think anyone would _depend_ on that behaviour, though.02:28
slangasekRAOF: alrighty, well, patch committed to bzr, and bug being filed upstream :)02:33
sn9would putting the kqemu in intrepid into hardy be a backport, or an SRU?03:12
RAOFAlmost certainly a backport, but it depends on why you'd be putting it in Hardy.03:15
sn9the version is unchanged, except for the -ubuntu1 suffix03:15
sn9it closes 6 launchpad bugs or so03:15
RAOFSo there are a bunch of patches applied?  That could be SRU worthy (but would probably be sru'd as a bunch of patches against Hardy's kqemu, not by copying Intrepid's source package).03:17
sn9intrepid's source pkg _is_ a bunch of patches against hardy's kqemu03:18
sn9at least at this point03:19
sn9the only changes at all are to fix the packaging peculiarities inherited from debian03:21
sn9RAOF: i imported the intrepid source pkg unchanged into my ppa, but with a hardy target, and installed it from there. works perfectly03:25
slangasekerm, no, the changes are implementing new features03:25
slangasek* Adding DKMS support03:25
sn9that's what closes some of the launchpad bugs03:26
slangasekwhich is fine, but I wouldn't expect that to pass muster for an SRU03:26
RAOFYeah.  Adding DKMS support is hardly going to fix any regressions :)03:27
RAOFLooks like you'll want to backport it.03:27
sn9ok, i'll file against hardy-backports. since i've already tested it, it's got a head start anyway03:28
sn9ubottu: bug 25590903:33
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255909 in hardy-backports "Please backport kqemu from Intrepid. Thank you." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25590903:33
sn9seems to me, that request can probably go directly to "Triaged" state, right?03:38
lifelessare we debian-sync frozen yet ?03:49
RAOFlifeless: Autosync is off, yes.03:50
persia_lifeless: In an automated fashion, yes.  Of course, if you've a good reason, manual sync is accepted03:50
lifelessnew package03:50
=== persia_ is now known as persia
sn9RAOF: "Triaged" is ok in this case, right?03:51
lifelessantlr3 if you are curious03:51
lifelessI'm just paging in process03:51
RAOFsn9: I don't think you've got the two required "it works" confirmations for the "triaged" state; but see the Backports documentation.03:51
persialifeless: Deadline for new packages is FeatureFreeze (August 28th).  On the other hand, you have to acually want the new package now, as opposed to it being automatically pushed.03:52
sn9RAOF: oh, it needs two? "Confirmed" then?03:52
RAOF!backports > sn903:52
ubottusn9, please see my private message03:52
RAOFI'm not sure what the correct status is; but backports use the statuses to mean specific things.  See the doucmentation.03:52
sn9i did -- that's why i said "Triaged"03:53
RAOFHm.  Then ignore me :)03:53
sn9slangasek: should i ignore RAOF? :)03:53
RAOFThat documentation is authoratative; my memory of it is not :)03:54
lifelesshmm, its already in intrepid, now that I get around to checking all my facts03:54
lifelessso its really easy to sync :>03:54
lifeless(as in not-needed)03:54
persialifeless: rmadison is your friend :)03:55
lifelesspersia: yes, but its so damn slow03:55
sn9RAOF: hmm, seems one needs to be an admin to set "Triaged"03:56
lifeless$ time rmadison  antlr303:59
lifelessreal    0m3.193s03:59
lifeless$ time apt-cache madison03:59
lifelessreal    0m0.027s03:59
persiaYes, but that only covers your local apt-cache: not so ideal if you're running hardy.03:59
lifelesspersia: huh? just add all suites you want to sources.list as deb-src04:00
lifeless$ time apt-cache madison antlr304:01
lifeless    antlr3 | 3.0.1+dfsg-2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/universe Sources04:01
lifeless    antlr3 | 3.0.1+dfsg-2 | http://ftp.au.debian.org sid/main Sources04:01
lifelessreal    0m0.519s04:01
persialifeless: I suppose, although that can be confusing with trivial use of apt-get source if there is unexpected version skew.04:02
persia(and yes, there are ways around that too)04:03
lifelesslike putting your distro's version at the top of sources.list :P04:03
persiaWell, no, that's insufficient.  If the versions are the same, it will pull from the top, but if a lower entry has a newer version, it will pull that instead unless you set priorities for the sources.04:04
persiaThis distinction is unlikely to be important for intrepid, but can be useful if e.g. Debian has a new upstream version and we want to backport some of the fixes to fix our bugs without pulling the new upstream version.04:05
lifelessoh hmm04:05
lifelessanyhow, yes - but I know to look closely :P04:05
persiaSo, yes, you can set priorities for the sources, and put them all in sources.list, and everything does the right thing (plus you can specify *which* version you want when you pull, which is nice for SRUs).04:05
lifelessand often do want to grab newer versions, e.g. to see if a backport will play nice04:05
persiaOn the other hand, I tend to have chroots for each distrorelease I may want, and just call apt-get source foo there to get the right data (without looking closely).  With that workflow, rmadison is more informative (although it does take a few seconds).04:06
persialifeless: Sure.  It entirely depends on one's workflow.  If one tends to be focused on a small number of packages, my model is far too much overhead.04:07
lifelesspersia: I have chroots too04:08
lifelessbut they are on my home server which is fairly regularly ETOOFAR04:08
persiaRight.  I've 16 entries from schroot -l on my laptop, and more on my workstation.  Like I said, perhaps too much overhead.04:09
kostmoHey all, I've put some more work into my pyrocket package - was wondering if any MOTU's are around to advocate? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=324004:28
kostmoIs anyone on this channel so late?04:43
NCommanderkostmo, I am, but I'm not an MOTU04:43
NCommanderJust a REVU admin04:43
kostmoany suggestions on the right time of day to find a MOTU here?04:44
persiakostmo: It's not late for everyone :p04:44
persiaMOTU are here all day, every day.04:44
persia(There are MOTU from UTC+11 through UTC-7 currently, and more timezones would be welcome)04:45
kostmoi c04:45
persiaWhich reminds me: MOTU Meeting in 15 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting !!!04:46
nxvli would say that the channel is more active while i'm sleeping (on europe work tine)04:46
kostmocan I pitch my package at the motu meeting? :)04:46
persiakostmo: Please don't.04:46
nxvlpersia: i almost forgot it!04:46
Hobbsee oh noes!  a meeting!04:47
kostmosure04:47
kostmoI guess I'm having a difficult time finding interested MOTUs - my package serves a pretty niche function04:47
persiakostmo: What does your package do?  Why is it cool?  Why should it be included in Ubuntu?04:48
Hobbseekostmo: most people find that, i think...04:49
kostmoMy package "pyrocket" is a driver for several of the USB rocket launchers that you might find on ThinkGeek or other novelty shops04:49
nxvlheh04:50
nxvlgeek toys04:50
kostmoIt exposes a few features of the devices that aren't accessible from the Windows drivers04:50
StevenKHaha04:50
StevenKkostmo: Such as? :-)04:51
nxvlkostmo: persia is a toy lover, but only if can get it out of his pockets and people would say "ooohhhhh!!!"04:51
nxvlpersia: don't you?04:51
StevenKBwahaha04:51
persiaI'd definitely be interested in such a device, and *very* interested in the driver.  Unfortunately, I've not seen any of the cube-warfare class of stuff in local shops.04:52
nxvli forgot how HORRIBLE gentoo was04:52
* nxvl rm -rf vm04:52
NCommandernxvl, why are you running gentoo O_o?04:52
kostmoFor example, on one of the Dream Cheeky launchers, my program allows super fine control of the aiming mechanism, where the bundled Windows application only allows rough positioning04:52
nxvlNCommander: just for vm fun04:52
kostmoand I have a webcam interface that's begging for some augmentation with computer vision04:53
NCommandernxvl, ugh, BTW< the comment about persia's toy will forever be etched into my mind. Just like COBOL77, and brainfuck (also goes by the names MIPS assembler, and dak)04:53
kostmoto auto-track your missile targets04:53
persiaNCommander: See, if you'd actually seen my smallest laptop, it wouldn't be so disturbing :)04:54
persia(Sharp 922SH)04:54
nxvlheh04:54
* nxvl love's persia's laptop04:54
NCommanderpersia, my mental image of you now involves a trenchcoat, a hat, and ...04:54
NCommanderugh04:54
* NCommander twichs04:54
* persia a04:54
* NCommander hides from persia 04:55
* persia has the trenchcoat and the hat, even the special trenchcoat liner with extra pockets04:55
NCommanderSpeaking of which, persia , you need to merge your REVU accounts04:55
nxvlhe doesn't use any case or backpack or nothing, just his belt04:55
persiaNCommander: Why?  I already have too high a number in statistics.04:55
NCommanderpersia, I guess you don't miss your reviewer status ;-)04:55
persianxvl: I don't wear a belt: pockets always win04:55
kostmopersia, as an advocate, I suppose you would want to be able to run the program with the device yourself?04:56
nxvlheh04:56
nxvlok04:56
persiaNCommander: I'm an admin: I fixed that with a sledgehammer when I discovered it.04:56
nxvls/belt/where the belt should be/04:56
nxvlpersia: better?04:56
NCommanderwithout context, this conversation would probably persia on some of those predator watch lists04:56
* NCommander unfixes it, and then modifies REVU's code to reject alter_user.py -n persia ;-)04:56
* persia wants the sledgehammer back04:57
* NCommander uses it on persia04:57
NCommanderUnless of course you vote yes to me becoming a contributator developer so I can get the shiny @ubuntu.com email04:57
kostmoI was wondering if maybe I should post a video on youtube of pyrocket in action, since not a lot of MOTU's probably have the hardware themselves04:57
* persia is amused to note that earthquakes sound like thunder when one is sufficiently close04:58
persiaAnyway, #ubuntu-meeting is the place to be ...04:58
* NCommander thinks persia should go AFK, earthwake04:58
NCommanderpersia, when's the next motu meeting?04:59
persiaNCommander: Now.04:59
NCommanderwow04:59
NCommanderAmazing timing I choose to bitch at the right time :-)04:59
nxvlScottK: did you get change to review the merge?04:59
kostmoStevenK, are you a MOTU?  I could go into more enticing details about pyrocket if it would generate interest05:00
nxvlkostmo: is pyrocket in revu?05:00
LaserJockScottK: you around?05:00
kostmoyup: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=324005:01
ScottKnxvl: Patch failed for me again.  Only a little.05:01
ScottKLaserJock: Barely.05:01
nxvlScottK: on patching?05:01
LaserJockScottK: nvm then, I've got some questions about matplotlib (maintained by python-modules-team)05:02
kostmobtw, I just added support recently for another model - the Striker II USB Laser Guided Missile Launcher05:02
ScottKLaserJock: OK.  How about tomorrow.05:02
LaserJockScottK: I can ask another day if you're busy/tired05:02
LaserJockScottK: np05:02
kostmothe rockets for Striker II are pretty lame, but at least you get a pan/tilt USB laser pointer05:03
StevenKC05:03
StevenKBah05:03
StevenKCall me when some Patriot Missle Systems get USB connectivity.05:04
kostmoThey just had one of these launchers on woot.com05:05
kostmoand one guy was asking if they work on linux: http://www.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=2327015&PageIndex=1&ReplyCount=47#post232704405:05
kostmoand yes, they do - but they need my package05:06
nxvlkostmo: the pachage has a needs-packaging bug on LP?05:06
kostmonxvl: yes, here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/24291005:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 242910 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] pyrocket" [Wishlist,In progress]05:07
kostmoeven though they're kind of random toys, I think having support for them in Linux is a positive thing for linux adoption in general05:09
kostmoStevenK, I do have plans in the next release for automatic tracking of targets, if that counts05:10
kostmonot quite a Patriot missile, but a step in the right direction05:10
tgm4883_laptopMaybe a dumb question, but when doing get-orig-source, should the tar end up the same name as the package name that i'm aiming for in the repo?05:11
kostmoThis guy has a webcam built into it, if you haven't seen it before: http://dreamcheeky.com/index.php?pagename=product&pid=4105:11
persiatgm4883_laptop: It should be $(package-name)_$(version).orig.tar.gz05:16
tgm4883_laptoppersia, right, so for instance, if I was making mythstream-parser-youtube and the downloaded tar was just named youtube4.tar.gz I would want it to end up as mythstream-parser-youtube_4.orig.tar.gz05:17
* SolarWar is looking for advocates (http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=qlix) Its a package of an (awesome) GUI application that allows users to sync music to Zunes and other MTP devices 05:18
persiatgm4883_laptop: Right.  Note that if you don't need to mangle the tarball manually, uscan will create a symlink for you.05:18
tgm4883_laptoppersia, awesome, thanks05:19
kostmoI'm wondering if I would need to find a MOTU with USB rocket launcher hardware in order to advocate pyrocket?05:24
SolarWarkostmo, i don't think advocators care about whether the software works, just that the packaging adheres to standards05:33
persiaSolarWar: Well, it's supposed to be both, although testing is typically minor.05:34
SolarWari see05:35
emgentmoin05:35
slangasekI'm trying to decide whether SolarWar is trolling me05:35
SolarWarhrm?05:35
slangasekSolarWar: "advocators don't care if the software works" :)05:36
kostmoactually I was wondering what degree of responsibility MOTU's do have for the functionality of the package05:36
SolarWarslangasek, did you mention something to contrary earlier? I was afk for a bit05:36
SolarWar:)05:36
SolarWarslangasek, i think it would be fairly difficult to test packages that require certain hardware, whether its rocket launchers or MTP devices05:37
slangasekSolarWar: no, I didn't; I'm just musing to myself whether you're trolling, since I'm predisposed to flying into a rage at people who don't take responsibility for the quality of packages that they upload :)05:37
persiaSolarWar: Generally we like to have at least one good test report from a MOTU, or several good test reports from non-MOTU.05:38
persiaIn the case of awkward hardware, there is sometimes a call for testers (one example would be a new DVB app in hardy)05:38
kostmois it appropriate to post requests for MOTU advocates or testers on the motu mailing list?05:39
persiakostmo: We prefer not for advocates.  If you've one advocate on the packaging, and can't find a tester, that would be appropriate.05:39
SolarWarslangasek, I didn't know that about your personality :) good to know- by quality of packages you don't mean the packaging itself, but the upstream software right?05:39
slangasekSolarWar: I mean that the package as a cohesive whole should be usable... :)05:40
slangasek(and integrate well with the system)05:40
SolarWar(also- i didn't mean to troll, no one who has commented on my package has said anything about well the upstream program works, but i welcome bugreports since i'm the author!)05:40
SolarWarpersia, oh, okay- that sounds fair05:40
kostmoso there's the whole "polling" vs. "interrupt" thing that contrasts IRC with the mailing list05:41
kostmoit can be quite a time investment to troll for interested MOTUs05:41
kostmoand I mean "troll" in a good way05:42
kostmoI feel like to catch the attention of someone that might be interested, I would want to repost the same info on IRC at some frequency05:43
persiakostmo: Indeed.  The optimum frequency is about every 30 hours, to both hit MOTU in all timezones, and not get below 24 hours (which makes some people refuse to review).05:43
persiaIt's less bad when we have organised REVU Days, but this cycle we've not been very good about organising those.05:44
* SolarWar has been yelled at for pitching Qlix 05:44
SolarWartoo often.05:44
kostmo\me is glad he is not SolarWar05:44
* kostmo is a bit new to irc05:44
SolarWari *like* being me05:44
persiaEach person does best being themselves, and we are each that because of our interactions with each of the rest of us.  Ubuntu.05:45
kostmonice.05:45
beunoso, I keep on getting: W: bzr-upload source: native-package-with-dash-version05:51
beunoand I can't quite put my finger on what I'm doing wrong05:51
beunoany ideas?05:51
slangasekis the .orig.tar.gz file missing from your parent directory?05:52
slangasek(or misnamed)05:52
beunoit's there. It may be misnamed.  It should be the exact name as the parent dir?05:53
emgentmoin warp1005:54
warp10hi emgent05:55
beunoslangasek, solved it, thanks  (permissions issues)05:58
xnevermoreWhen updating a packaging for a new upstream version, what do I do with the debian patches that are in the previous version package?06:00
persiaxnevermore: Review them.  Apply those that are still required, or fix useful bugs.  Drop those that are adopted upstream or rendered irrelevant by upstream changes.06:02
kostmoI have a question about package maintenance: I know that getting a package initially accepted into Universe requires 2 MOTU advocates.  Once that package is accepted, if the Upstream author releases a new version, how does the repackaged version get accepted back into Universe?06:05
kostmois it 2 motu's each time?06:05
RAOFNo.06:05
persiaSomeone files a bug asking for a new version, and attaches the updated diff.gz.  That requires one MOTU to sponsor the new version.06:05
StevenKkostmo: Nope, just ask for sponsorship06:05
kostmook, thanks06:06
persiaMind you, the testing requirement for new upstreams is usually more strictly enforced, so for a rocket launcher, your choices may be more limited.06:07
kostmopersia, which choices do you mean?06:08
persiakostmo: choices for sponsors06:08
TomJaegerAre there any MOTUs around that would be willing to review my awesome gesture recognition application?06:09
TomJaegerIt's very well-received, see http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=83703206:09
persiaTomJaeger: The URL to the app is likely a more powerful incentive than the URL to comments about it :)06:10
persiaAlso, there's a MOTU Meeting on now, so few people are likely to review.06:10
kostmoI was especially curious about the sponsorship requirements - because I'm wearing both hats - as the upstream developer and the packager - I have some really cool computer vision stuff in the works for "pyrocket", but I'm trying to decide whether it would be best to get it into the initial version, or a later release06:11
TomJaegerSorry, didn't know about the meeting.06:12
TomJaegerAnyway, the website of the app: http://easystroke.wiki.sourceforge.net/#content06:13
persiaTomJaeger: And the REVU link?06:13
kostmopersia, your suggestion to TomJaeger brings a question to mind for me - would polling Ubuntu Forums for user interest in "pyrocket" make a persuasive argument for MOTU advocacy?06:13
persiakostmo: Not pursuasive, although it may help with the testing requirement if no MOTU has the hardware.06:14
TomJaegerIt's on top of this list: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=easystroke06:14
persiaThere you go :)  Now anyone who isn't busy in the meeting can get to a place to do the review with one click.06:14
kostmoso MOTU's are unswayed by the din of the masses06:14
ajmitchkostmo: I've heard they're more easily swayed by bribes06:18
kostmoI have some high quality USB rocket launchers...06:19
* kostmo is off to code up a sweet rocket launcher demo to win MOTU favor06:20
dholbachgood morning06:22
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== superm1 is now known as superm1|away
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
xnevermoreif I have to alter a dpatch, should I rename it? what other changes do I have to make?06:31
ScottKxnevermore: No.  Just document that you've changed it in debian/changelog06:32
xnevermoreScottK: do I add a credit to myself in the patch itself?06:32
ScottKIt's a judgement call.  For a minor change I wouldn't.06:33
xnevermorealright. fair enough. thanks06:33
TomJaegerpersia, your comment still puzzles me.  If I can demonstrate that users like my application and that I stand behind it and listen to my user's concerns, surely that's more important than having a shiny homepage? (Which frankly, I don't because I'd rather spend my time improving the software than with marketing)06:37
dholbachhiya nxvl :)06:37
persiaTomJaeger: Not the homepage: the REVU page.  Having a quick click to review tends to make reviewers more likely to actually perform the review.06:37
persiaIt's not about the application homepage.06:37
nxvldholbach: :D06:38
persiaMany reviewers will look at an application on it's own merits, rather than looking for a strong userbase, so the interested users may not matter to the reviewer, as long as the application is good and the packaging is done right.06:38
TomJaegerwell I'd already posted the REVU link a million times, that never accomplished anything06:38
nxvldholbach: time for GBJ is reaching06:39
nxvlactually we are on GBJ time NOW06:39
dholbachyeah and I look forward to it :)06:39
dholbachI'm going to mail all organisers in a bit06:39
nxvli'm very excited about that, i have just been noticed that the Gnome dev, the debian deb, the OOo guy and the kde contributor are going to be there!06:40
nxvlit's awesome06:40
slangasek"the" Gnome dev?06:41
StevenKIsn't that Vincent?06:41
* StevenK hides06:41
dholbachslangasek: you know... the guy who wrote GNOME06:41
nxvlheh06:41
StevenKThe guy who started it doesn't work on it any more06:41
nxvlthe peruvian gnome dev06:41
slangasekoh, we're talking about Peru :)06:41
nxvlwe have one on each project06:42
nxvlone in ubuntu, actually 2 now06:42
nxvlone in debian (actually 2 now counting myself)06:42
nxvlone in gnome06:42
slangasekso "the Debian dev" == Rudy Godoy?06:42
nxvlone in KDE, and one in OOo06:42
nxvlyup06:43
slangasekah, well, say hi to him for me then. :)06:44
nxvli will!06:44
nxvlhe's a good friend of mine06:44
nxvlthe FOSS community in peru is really close and small06:44
nxvlslangasek: are you busy or have some time to review a package update?06:46
slangaseknxvl: I'm busy trying and failing to detach myself from the computer so I can sleep06:46
nxvlheh06:46
nxvl:D06:46
nxvli'm on the same problem06:46
nxvl:D06:46
nxvlbut my packages are waiting for me06:47
nxvli've just noticed that augeas released a new version06:47
TomJaegerpersia, I'd be happy if I had gotten MOTUs interested on "the app's own merit", but that hasn't been the case, so what was I supposed to do?  It seems to me that you don't have the manpower to review every package, so I felt it might be helpful to tout the app a little bit, rather than just being annoying.06:48
ScottKpersia: Explain.06:48
NCommanderpersia, yup06:48
persiaTomJaeger: Understood.  This cycle has been incredibly poor for REVU.  At the recent MOTU Meeting, we've had a couple people who might help get REVU working smoothly again, which may help you.06:49
persiaSo, to provide context: I was asked " What do you think about individual maintainers for packages not in Debian.", to which I said I was very strongly against it.06:50
nxvlagreed06:50
nxvlwe don't work that way06:50
persiaThe reasoning for this is that I think we operate best as a team, and one of my favorite things about Ubuntu Development is that we work collaboratively.06:50
NCommanderBut we do have packages that have a Maintainer (@ubuntu.com)06:50
ScottKSure.  It's allowed.06:51
NCommanderBut that doesnt't stop NMUs here06:51
persiaThat said, I've nothing against smaller teams declaring support for a set of packages, but that's different.06:51
persiaNCommander: Yes, but I don't like that anyway (and we don't even acknowledge the concept of NMU usually)06:51
persiaNote that there is value to having packages specifically maintained.06:51
NCommanderI personally don't have an issue with individual maintainers as long as anyone form the MOTU team can update a package06:51
persiaI think that is best expressed in Ubuntu by subscribing to the package in LP, filing regular update bugs, and working with upstream (documenting this in the bugs),06:52
persiaIf someone is doing a good job of this, others are likely to leave them to it.06:52
NCommanderSo why not mark the maintainer then?06:52
NCommanderSince that's essentially what they are doing06:52
persiaFurther, if someone has demonstrated expertise in a package or set of packages, others are likely to point to them when an opinion is sought.06:52
nxvlNCommander: yes, you can use the maintainer field with your name, but NMU are allowed and don't need special versioning06:53
NCommanderRight06:53
persiaNCommander: Because I simply don't see *any* value in marking the maintainer: what is the point?06:53
nxvland people are free to change the maintainer field if they feel like06:53
NCommanderBy having your name in the Maintainer field, it makes it offical your the first person you go to support, and who handles it06:53
ScottKpersia: My use case is if you want your package in Ubuntu, you have to volunteer to maintain it.06:53
persiaNCommander: Except that we delete that information from all binary packages.06:53
persiaScottK: I don't agree with that: I'd rather have things get in because people are interested, and get dropped if they cannot be maintained.06:54
NCommanderlet me rephrase06:54
slangasekpersia: well, the possible advantage I see is having a way to flag that a package has ended up de-facto orphaned06:54
nxvlScottK: yes, but it doesn't stop the community to work on your package06:54
persiaslangasek: We have that: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/06:54
persiaIt's a rare case that anything appears on UEHS for long if it isn't orphaned (and yes, that includes packages orphaned in Debian)06:55
nxvlScottK: i have some package with my name in the Maintainer field, but i won't get mad if for example you touch it without asking me first06:55
ScottKAgreed.06:55
NCommanderwhere do the meeting logs go to?06:55
persianxvl: But someone might.  I don't like the possibility because it may be misinterpreted.06:55
slangasekpersia: what am I supposed to see here?06:55
slangasekthe "not in sync with upstream" bit?06:55
ScottKIt's just a question if you aren't willing to sign up to mind the package, why should I be troubled to upload it.06:55
persiaNCommander: irclogs.ubuntu.com06:55
StevenKInto the depths of mootbot06:55
nxvlpersia: agreed06:55
nxvlpersia: but the only thing we can make against it, is specifically say that on a policy or something06:56
persiaslangasek: Any of the classes: those with no watch file, those not in sync, or those with no upstream checkable.  Note that there are some false posivites in the first and third case, but not so many.06:56
persianxvl: Which means more policy, which I don't like.  More policy raises the bar to participation.06:56
slangasekpersia: well, it's the false-negatives that concern me06:57
nxvlmmm06:57
persiaslangasek: Packages that appear maintained and aren't?06:57
nxvltrue06:57
ScottKpersia: Barriers to useless cruft in the archive are no bug.06:57
slangasekpersia: suppose someone is an upstream, gets their package sponsored into universe, then disappears06:57
slangasekit won't stop being in sync with upstream, but that doesn't mean it's being "maintained" in any useful sese06:57
persiaScottK: I don't see it that way at all: not much of what comes through REVU is best classed as "useless cruft", and anything removed in Debian is auto-removed from Ubuntu.06:57
slangaseksense06:57
persiaslangasek: I guess, but is it broken?06:58
slangasekwell, but ScottK was specifically raising the point of packages that are added to Ubuntu by someone that aren't present in Debian06:58
StevenKActually, I have something that wasn't06:58
nxvlpersia: but the only case in which i think someone can get mad is while having a strong debian concept in mind06:58
slangasekso there's no guarantee that there's anyone /anywhere/ maintaining this package06:58
slangaseks/package/software/06:58
persianxvl: As we encourage people to read Debian documentation, that's not at all unlikely.06:58
nxvlmmm06:58
StevenKCompare 'rmadison -u debian twin' and 'rmadison twin'06:58
nxvltrue06:58
* nxvl stops talking06:59
nxvl:D06:59
persiaslangasek: Sure, but maybe it's not broken.  I think broken-ness is better tracked by bugs than by some random string somewhere06:59
persiaNote that plenty of packages come from Debian, have "maintainers", but are pointlessly broken and nobody is watching them.06:59
slangasek(fwiw, I'm not convinced that ScottK's is the right solution to this problem, because I'm concerned that once you apply the "maintainer" label you'll trend toward having package unhealthy package feifdoms, which we've consciously tried to avoid)06:59
nxvlpersia: but either we need a policy saying a) we don't accept maintainers b) maintainers are allowed, but anyone can touch the package07:00
persiaThat might not even be the assigned maintainer's fault: if I use gnue as an example, upstream became messy and incompatible, and the maintainer would have had a hard time keeping the package in shape even if he was so inclined.07:00
ScottKslangasek: I'm not either, but I'm fresh out of ideas to avoid drive bys07:00
nxvli don't see more alternatives07:00
persianxvl: That's a contradiction.  I want to stop with "We don't accept maintainers".07:00
persiaScottK: I don't mind drive-bys.07:01
persiaI've had a few packages that were drive-by, but I used them, and I updated them for another cycle.07:01
nxvlpersia: then i'm lost, what's your point07:01
ScottKpersia: I think that's the source of a lot of the Ubuntu only stuff.07:01
persiaI don't want to promise to maintain them, but I like them being around.07:01
persianxvl: That I'm against the idea of having an individual "Maintainer" set in debian/control for uploads to Ubutu.07:02
ScottKpersia: It's currently allowed.07:02
nxvlthat's what i meant (or tried to) with a) we don't accept maintainers07:02
slangasekpersia: there's a non-zero chance that some of these packages are non-broken, yes; but I think there's also a higher than usual chance that they are, and I've personally never accepted the argument that Ubuntu (or Debian) should make all the software available that they can and let users alone decide what's useful or not, because there are central costs associated with doing that07:02
persiaScottK: Yes, but discouraged.  I'm not fussy enough to push policy stating it to be prohibited.07:03
persiaslangasek: I'm not supporting the case that *everything* should be available, although certain dictators have expressed that view in the past.07:03
nxvlwhat i try to do is, when i have special interest on a package i try to get it in debian and maintain it there07:03
nxvlthen ask for a sync into ubuntu07:03
ScottKI will confess that when I have to do an Ubuntu upload of a package I maintain in Debian, I don't change the maintainer.07:03
persiaI just don't see any value to enforcing that a given application is maintained by an individual within Ubuntu.07:04
ScottKI'd get annoyed if I couldn't do that.07:04
\shScottK: we always had special cases where we never changed the maintainer07:04
slangasekScottK: setting it up for the day when you can troll the Ubuntu mailing lists complaining that the maintainer field wasn't changed? ;)07:04
persiaScottK: That's technically a violation of the Debian-Maintainer-Field rule, but you're not alone in that, which is one of the reasons we're a little flexible on that rule when the actual Maintainer is involved.07:04
nxvlScottK: same here07:04
* slangasek notes that all the packages he maintains in Debian, /do/ have a changed maintainer field when uploaded to Ubuntu07:05
slangasekit helps that most of these are team-maintained in the first place :)07:05
* persia would not complain if LP automagically X-SBC-Original-Maintainered everything on sync source import, as long as teams had a mechanism to declare maintenance.07:06
\shbut I agree with slangasek here...we should focus on packages which are used most in our usecases and drop cornercase stuff...which can save bandwidth, time, and resources...or we swamp da debian distro with NM-application in a short period of time07:07
persiaI agree with that as well.07:08
NCommanderpersia, minutes and points of discussion went to the list07:08
persiaI'd like to see less cruft.  I'm just very strongly of the opinion that setting "Maintainer" is not the right way to achieve this.07:08
nxvli also don't like the maintainer idea since it can turn in the community saying "it's not our fault, it's $MAINTAINER's fault"07:08
persiaRight, when it is *our* fault.07:08
nxvlpersia: the thing there is that sync are untouched imports07:08
nxvlpersia: so the maintainer is still responsable for it in one or other way07:09
slangasekpersia: let me pose the question another way.  If a package has no upstream, no Debian or Ubuntu maintainer, and only users who would be better served by another package already in the archive, how do we go about detecting that this is cruft?07:09
\shnxvl: that's already the normal way to go..."it's not ubuntus fault, na it's not even debians fault, it's fault of upstream, and it's not even upstreams fault, it's fault of the fingerpointed guy who pushed the patch in07:09
persianxvl: Not at all.  Several Debian maintainers have expressed that they aren't, and that expression has been supported all members of our technical board.07:09
slangaseksystematically, that is?07:09
\shnxvl: that's wrong...source in debian != source in ubuntu regarding the different toolchains...07:09
persiaslangasek: Systematically, I've no idea, but I do think that we've too many barriers to removal now.07:10
\shbetter to say, the outcome of the source in both distros07:10
nxvlpersia: if the maintairs have expressed it, i can't go against it07:10
NCommanderCan someone sum what been discussed since I wrote the notes07:10
NCommander(and persia, your two cents on the issue)07:10
persiaIt took me *3* releases to get a broken game with questionable licensing removed when upstream had a name change.07:10
slangasekhmm, why so long?07:11
NCommanderpersia, in ubuntu or debian?07:11
slangasekwhy is the procedure more than "file bug, subscribe ubuntu-archive, watch it be removed"?07:11
persiaslangasek: Not sure.  It kept getting bounced between archive admins, and generally ignored.07:11
ScottKI don't think it is.07:11
slangasekoh07:11
persiaFinally I had someone poke one of the archive-admins at UDS and verbally abuse them until they removed it.07:11
NCommanderpersia, that's a break down of proceedure, but the policy itself is fine I think07:12
persiaAlso, that is the procedure, it's just not been well supported by archive-admins historically.07:12
NCommanderANd more of an exception then a rule07:12
slangasekpersia: fwiw, from my perspective it helps if submitters are more assertive with setting bug statuses in cases like that07:12
persiaNCommander: Well, it's been common historically.  We've had lots of trouble getting cruft removed despite support amoung MOTU.07:12
NCommanderI dunno, removal requests are pretty rare, but when they do happen, they happen relatively fast07:12
ScottKPersonally I've had great success with getting stuff removed.07:13
NCommanderHrm07:13
persia(and that's for identified cruft)07:13
slangasekpersia: e.g., if another archive-admin has set the bug to 'incomplete', I'll skip over it in my weekly archive day07:13
NCommanderMaybe we need a "Nominate for Removal" link in LP07:13
slangasekexpecting it to come back to 'confirmed' before it's ready for me to act on07:13
persiaslangasek: That makes sense.07:13
NCommanderScottK, same, and no problems with Debian (although there is usually a week lag time)07:13
persiaScottK: That's good to hear: I'm probably working off older assumptions.07:13
ScottKThe biggest problem is getting people to look and file the removal bugs.07:13
* NCommander agrees with ScottK 07:14
ScottKIf someone want practice, go ask for removal of sylpheed-gtk1.07:14
xnevermoreIf a dpatch that was written for an old package version will not apply on a new one, what is the best way to edit that patch to make it work? or is it best to create a new one that does the same thing?07:14
persiaWell, we've that problem for lots of classes of issues.07:14
NCommanderWhat we need are guidelines for "cruft" and perpahs a set team which during frezes does extactly that07:14
ScottKxnevermore: dpatch-edit-patch.07:14
NCommanderGo through universe/multiverse and weed out the junk07:14
persiaxnevermore: Yes, although the old patch may well help inform how to achieve that.07:14
persiaActually, removals during freezes tend to be discouraged, unless there is a strong reason for removal.07:15
NCommanderpersia, let me rephrase07:15
ScottKNot a bad time to file the bugs though.07:15
NCommanderTHey go through during the freeze07:15
NCommanderFile removal requests07:15
persiaNo, and excellent time to file the bugs.07:15
NCommanderANd if no one protests and steps forward to update the package07:15
NCommanderIt goes after that release07:15
ScottKNCommander: We don't need to wait that long.07:16
NCommander(call it a time-delayed removal)07:16
ScottKNo need.07:16
ScottKIf something gets removed, you can always add it back in.07:16
* NCommander nods07:16
persiaIndeed, although the archive-admins tend to get overwhelmed with duties as release nears, and it may be that the removals aren't the highest priority (which is understandable)07:17
NCommanderI still think having a strike force of people to do this would work wonders07:17
persiaNCommander: Start one.07:17
NCommanderpersia, How?07:17
ScottKNCommander: Make a team on Launchpad.07:17
ScottKNCommander: Write to the MOTU ML asking for volunteers.07:17
ScottKNCommander: Get to work.07:17
* NCommander creates ubuntu-cruft-busters :-)07:17
NCommanderUnless someone has a better name07:17
persiaNCommander: Make a team on LP.  Document the activities and responsibilities of team members, and post to ubuntu-motu for team members.07:17
ScottKpersia is more process oriented than I am.07:18
persiaHeh :)07:18
* NCommander is extremely process oriented07:18
ScottKNote actually doing the work wasn't on his list.07:18
persiaI think it's important to tell people for what they are signing on before asking them to join a team.07:18
NCommanderThe idea of having a team came from my ICS training07:18
ScottKBah.  You get fewer volunteers that way.07:18
NCommanderAny ideas a team name07:19
NCommanderuniverse-cruft-busters, ubuntu-garbage-collection?07:19
\shoh another team07:19
persiaNo, there's no reason that the person organising the team does the work, as long as the person organising the team is confirming that the work is being done in a timely manner.  I've no problem with meta-busyness07:19
persiaScottK: Yes, but you also have fewer people running away screaming when they find out what they are doing.07:19
NCommanderI'll help get this project off the ground07:19
nxvlScottK: but you are more complain oriented than persia07:19
* nxvl hides07:19
nxvl:D07:20
persiaNCommander: Note that if you don't want the overhead of a team, you could also just call for volunteers on the ML, and build the team if you later thought it helpful to have one (e.g. a ML)07:20
ScottKNCommander: My suggestion would be find the oldest version of GCC in the archive and see if anything that build-deps on it should stay.07:20
NCommanderScottK, GCC is all main07:20
persiaYes, GCC would be nice to kill.  Also, there's not a few libraries that have one source per version: porting to only have one version of the library would be a huge win.07:20
ScottKNCommander: Not the older ones07:20
nxvlNCommander: packages in univers can depend in main packages07:21
NCommanderSO you two are voluteering to help, right?07:21
ScottKNCommander: In Hardy will killed off a gcc2 something package.07:21
ScottKNCommander: I'm volunteering to give advice and order you around.07:21
NCommanderScottK, you'd make a wonderful politician07:21
ScottKNope.  Too honest.07:22
nxvltrue07:22
ScottKA politician wouldn't tell you that, just do it.07:22
nxvlthat's why we love ScottK07:22
persiaNCommander: I'd be happy to help.  Note that my supply of tuits is rapidly reaching historical lows, so you may not find this as beneficial as you might assume.07:22
NCommandertuits?07:22
ScottKnxvl: Speaking of honesty: I reviewed your courier merge.  The story does not yet have a happy ending.07:23
ScottKNCommander: The round ones.07:23
NCommanderI don't get it07:23
nxvlScottK: the patch still doesn't apply, or it applies, but it's not in good shape?07:23
NCommanderand ...07:23
StevenKNCommander: "round tuit"07:23
StevenKNCommander: Say it out loud07:23
NCommanderStill don't get it07:23
StevenKSound it out?07:23
ScottKnxvl: DIdn't apply, I decided to sort it out manually.  Merge is pretty good, but needs a little more work.07:24
NCommandertoo-it?07:24
StevenKNCommander: Now you're getting it07:24
NCommander... *sigh*07:24
NCommanderAnyone know where the make a team button on Launchpad is?07:24
nxvlScottK: mm odd07:24
nxvlScottK: i tested the patch in different sandboxes and have no problems with it07:24
ScottKNCommander: --> #launchpad - They have a whole team dedicated to ignoring questions.07:25
nxvlScottK: let me upload the package to my ppa07:25
ScottKnxvl: No need.07:25
NCommanderScottK, damn it, you just made soda fly through my nose07:25
ScottKnxvl: I won't trust PPA code just now anyway.07:25
nxvlwhy?07:25
ScottKUnsigned repo + DNS Cache Poisoning.07:26
nxvlthe sign thing07:26
ScottKYep.07:26
ScottKI deleted all the packages out of PPAs I control.07:26
nxvltrue07:26
ScottKnxvl: The problem was you bumped standards version to 3.8, but then didn't update the package to 3.8.07:26
* persia questions the value of updating the standards version when updating packages except for ubuntu-local packages07:27
nxvlScottK: i did that?07:28
ScottKpersia: Generally I agree, but the actual maintainer standards version for courier is 3.5.607:28
ScottKnxvl: That's what was in your diff.07:28
nxvland didn't document it on the changelog07:28
nxvli should confuse terminals07:29
ScottKRight.  Changelog still said 3.7.307:29
nxvlworking in a car in more that one package at the time is not the best to do07:29
ScottKnxvl: If you'd been a MOTU already and uploaded that, what would you do now?07:29
persiaScottK: Ah, yes, that hits the ancient-standards-version test :)07:29
nxvlScottK: fix it07:30
nxvl:D07:30
persianxvl: And how would you have known to fix it?07:30
nxvlupdating it to 3.8.007:30
ScottKpersia: Actually until the last lintian upload 3.7.3 was classified as ancient.07:30
* StevenK scoffs07:31
NCommanderScottK & persia: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cruft-busters07:31
ScottKLintian had the nice feature of basing ancient standards on when a policy was issued, not when it was superceded.07:31
persia3.7.3 shouldn't have been considered "ancient"!07:31
ScottKThat was, I htink my second Lintian bug to get fix.07:31
ScottKpersia: Agreed.  The test was logically flawed.07:31
persiaScottK: Indeed.  Thanks for sorting that.07:32
StevenKNCommander: s/universe and multiverse/the Ubuntu archive/07:32
ScottKI pointed out that under the test if policy didn't change for 2 years, the current policy would be ancient.07:32
NCommanderStevenK, change maded07:32
persiaYeah: there's no reason not to cut cruft from main/restricted as well.07:32
StevenKNCommander: Approve my membership :-)07:32
NCommanderTrying to figure out how ;-)07:32
ScottKIf it has a cool badge, I'll join.07:32
StevenKClick links, I think07:32
* StevenK hides07:32
persiaNCommander: Click on the edit button from https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cruft-busters/+members or wait for the email with the special approve link.07:33
NCommanderI'm going to use a garbage can07:33
NCommanderpersia, yeah, just found it07:33
* persia wants a garbage can07:33
StevenKWorks for me07:33
SolarWarNCommander, whats your timezone?07:33
nxvlpersia: actually i wouldn't07:33
NCommanderEastern Standard07:33
NCommander-5 UTC07:33
NCommanderor a nice gun07:33
StevenKGarbage can07:33
SolarWarNCommander, does that make you EST?07:34
* NCommander looks for the svg for the GNOME garbage gan07:34
NCommanderSolarWar, yes07:34
slangasekpersia: hrm, a disturbing thought that we would have left anything in main/restricted in such bad shape that it should go straight from there to archive removal07:34
slangasek(on a "cruft" basis, that is)07:34
StevenKslangasek: Cruft could be NBS07:34
SolarWarokay just checking, i've seen you active during normal hours, and now, on abnormal hours07:34
SolarWar:)07:34
persiaslangasek: consider the case where something is required for main, but replaced, and ejected to universe: is it necessarily useful in universe at that time?07:34
slangasekStevenK: NBS is already dealt with by the archive admins07:34
StevenKIn which case it does go straight from main to removed07:34
ScottKslangasek: KDE3 is going straight out the window as KDE4 replaces it.07:35
NCommanderAnyone know where I can find the icon for the GNOME trash icon07:35
NCommanderSolarWar, I have a sleep disorder07:35
slangasekScottK: but we don't need a special group to /track/ that, do we?  The parties responsible for KDE4 are handling it?07:35
persia /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable/places/user-trash.svg07:36
ScottKslangasek: True.  That's just an example.07:36
persiaslangasek: Does it hurt to have a group that also does that?07:36
ScottKslangasek: I think we'd have been better off it that'd happened with serpentine.07:36
persiaYes, sepentine is an interesting example.07:36
SolarWarNCommander, is that a fact?07:36
NCommanderSolarWar, chronic delayed sleep syndrome07:36
* NCommander has a nice blue one, but this will work07:37
slangasekpersia: no, I'm just thinking out loud that I find the prospect of main being in such a state disturbing07:37
nxvlScottK: it seems to be 3.8.0 complaining or i'm to sleepy to notice the diferences now07:37
persiaslangasek: It's rare, and usually "fixed" by tossing the relevant cruft into universe07:37
persiaIt's just that tossing it into universe isn't always the right solution.07:37
slangasekNCommander: is that accompanied by restless leg syndrome?07:37
* nxvl will check tomorrow07:37
ScottKnxvl: I didn't see Homepage: was one thing I noticed.  I'm pretty sure you'll need README.source.07:37
ScottKOK.07:38
NCommanderslangasek, Maybe, define the symptons07:38
slangasekNCommander: "your legs move"07:38
NCommander(my leg shakes a lot)07:38
NCommanderthen yes07:38
slangasekhere, have some of these drugs that the nice man on the TV sold me07:39
slangasekthey'll make your legs stop moving07:39
StevenKAnd probably the rest of you07:39
persiaLet's call it "sleep".  Perhaps with fishes.07:39
nxvlmmm starting with the fact that i need to follow several checklists07:39
NCommanderScottK, StevenK persia, check your profile pages :-)07:39
hagabakawhat's the difference between xorg-driver-fglrx and xorg-driver-fglrx-envy?07:40
SolarWarNCommander, that sucks :-/07:40
persiahagabaka: The source from which it was installed.07:40
NCommanderThanks07:40
* NCommander will accept new icons07:41
ScottKSpeaking of sleep ....07:41
hagabakaalso what version of fglrx is packaged in hardy? i can't really tell from "7.1.0-8-6+2.6.24.502-502.30_i386"07:41
* ScottK says good night again.07:41
NCommandersladen, trying to kill me with that junk ;-)?07:41
\shScottK: good night :)07:41
* persia declares that fail2ban would appreciate a bunch of help, if anyone wants to look at a package for general updating.07:41
NCommanderwhen did Ubuntu wiki add openid support?07:42
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
nxvlnight all!07:43
* NCommander makes a wiki page07:43
SolarWarScottK, night night07:45
jpdsNCommander: Some time ago, help.u.c has it too.08:00
NCommanderjpds, ?08:00
jpdsNCommander: The OpenID stuff?08:01
NCommanderseems every ubuntu service has it now08:02
NCommanderjpds, BTW, come join cruft busters ;-)08:02
persiaNCommander: Previously the wiki had a hack to use LP has a backend for authentications (since Edgy or so).  OpenID is significantly cleaner.08:03
NCommanderAh08:03
jpdsNCommander: Yeah, it makes things way easier.08:03
NCommanderIt seems to have come after REVU openid08:03
* NCommander wonders if it was inspired by that08:03
SolarWaranyone know if application developers need to do anything special to hook into apport?08:03
jpdsNCommander: It came before ;-) What are cruft busters?08:03
persiaSolarWar: Have the upstream build system provide unstripped binaries by default (for compiled languages).08:05
NCommanderjpds, https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cruft-busters08:05
persiaOtherwise the upstream build system needs to be patches: Ubuntu provides stripped binaries, but the stripping process also saves the dbgsym packages for apport use.08:05
SolarWarpersia, so the program i packaged up, is in c++, it has the ggdb flag set (for debug symbols when it compiles) my package creates two packages- the normal stripped package, and the dbg symbol package, is that sufficient?08:07
NCommanderjpds, and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CruftBusters08:07
jpdsNCommander: Nice idea. /me joins08:08
NCommanderpersia, care to look at the wiki page and make any suggestions08:08
NCommanderI wrote up an inital proceedure to keep people going on the same page08:08
persiaNCommander: We've twice that number of packages, at least.08:09
NCommanderI don't want to scare people :-)08:09
persiaBetter to appear accurate than to try to keep people from learning the truth because they may be scared.08:09
* NCommander fixes the number08:10
persiaThat said, scaring people may help in recruitment.08:10
persiaNCommander: Check LP/ubuntu for the current number08:10
NCommanderI'm just going with a rough estimation of 14000+08:10
persiaIs it that hard to look up?  Must I provide you a URL?08:10
NCommanderyes08:10
* NCommander is smacked08:10
* persia uses https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid to accomplish that08:11
* NCommander registers #ubuntu-cruftbusters08:12
persiaWhy?  Surely it's better to coordinate here and in #ubuntu-devel to get best quality comments.08:12
* persia points at the current occupants of #ubuntu-backports as an example of why08:12
NCommanderWell, I figure its good to have a seperate channel for when Cruft Blasting Day :-)08:13
jpdspoor Mez.08:13
persiaNah.  Here is good.  Gets more interest.  Same as for REVU days.08:13
NCommanderWorks for me08:13
NCommanderWhat do you think of the current Procedure on doing a cruft-buster removal?08:13
persiaAlso, do you intend to have the team subscribed to related bugs?  What is the "cruft busters bugs page"?08:14
NCommanderEach team has a bugs page08:14
persiaOne never assigns an archive-admin to a bug: one merely doesn't assign anyone, and subscribes them.08:14
NCommanderI would open a Removal Progress on Firefox208:14
NCommanderer, meant subscribe08:14
* NCommander fixs08:14
persiaAh, the LP bugs page.  Note somewhere that people should subscribe the team page to such bugs.08:15
NCommanderpersia, maybe you can word it better then I can08:15
NCommander(I'm not great with wikis)08:15
persiaLastly, "file patches" is not best: better to upload patches, no?  Especially if you are restricting the team to people who can upload.08:15
* persia isn't great with time.08:15
NCommanderOh08:15
NCommanderD'oh08:15
NCommanderWell, its restricted to MOTU, or those sponsored by an MOTU to join08:16
* NCommander clarifies08:16
NCommanderI think firefox2 should probably start working on being removed from the archive08:19
NCommanderpersia, mail sent to motu08:28
persiaNCommander: Great.  Now you just need to help people to join the team and get the work done :)08:28
persiaWhile certainly not authoritative, you may find that some of the QA resources are good at identifying possible candidates for renewal or removal.08:29
* NCommander tackles \sh and drags him away08:29
\shhum?08:29
NCommander\sh, join the cruft busters, a group dedicated to removing moldy packages from the archive08:29
NCommander\sh, https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cruft-busters08:29
NCommander(see email to motu for more details)08:30
persia\sh: Do you really fear a lot of personal attacks to get team members to resign?08:30
NCommanderYou get a cool orange garbage can as a bragging right :-)08:30
\shpersia: no...but the paragraph can be easily mis-interpretated08:31
NCommanderpersia, it seems the email to the mailing list works quite well08:31
* emgent huggs \sh 08:31
NCommanderor I just wrote good notes08:32
NCommanderalthough I think nixternal isn't going to like me after he gets pinged to death08:32
persia\sh: I guess.  Personally, I don't think any of us would do that, and if someone did, I'd rather discuss it, rather than needing to explicitly tell them not to do so in advance.08:32
persiaNCommander: email can be an effective means of communication, and some discussions are worth two months.  I just feel that we ought actually review things when we way we will.08:33
NCommanderpersia, any comments on my minutes?08:34
NCommanderwow, another cruft buster joins08:34
persia\sh: Also, did you get the same impression from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-July/004275.html ?08:34
NCommanderI'm soon going to have a complete #u-motu collection :-)08:34
persiaNCommander: Thank you for writing up the minutes08:34
NCommanderNo problem08:34
NCommandergmail also makes it easy to keep track of all the threads08:35
NCommanderemgent, you be cruft buster08:35
persiaNCommander: Just don't co-opt the entire SWAT team: we need security support too :)08:35
NCommanderWe need Ubuntu-MOTU cards08:36
NCommanderpersia, Powers: Ability to reason. Weakness: Voting08:36
persiaYes, but I have the special "Quash Vote" power, which takes a month to recharge.08:36
NCommanderyou know08:36
NCommanderI have enough free time I might make a Ubuntu MOTU trading card thingy08:37
persiaFTBFS is more interesting than MOTU cards, surely :)08:37
NCommanderslangasek would be an ultra-rare with Release Ubuntu Distro ability08:37
NCommander(he's going to see that on the scrollback and go WTF)08:37
slangasekyes, yes I am.08:38
emgenthehhe08:38
persiaStill 467 packages to go...08:38
NCommanderslangasek, Ubuntu developer trading cards :-)08:38
NCommanderMaybe make FTBFS and bugs be event cards ...08:38
NCommander...08:38
NCommanderI should stop on this train of thought before I go create a game or something producive08:39
slangasekNCommander: explaining this does not cause the "WTF" to diminish08:39
persiaNCommander: Yes, go kill cruft, fix FTBFS, etc.  You'll feel better in the morning.08:39
NCommanderI dunno, we could sell it for money or include it with every Ubuntu CD sent via shipit ...08:40
\shpersia: nope..08:43
persiaNCommander: When you have time, could you rewrite the model to be significantly more verbose and closer to the original proposal?08:44
persiaBased on \sh's comments, I think the summarised version may be confusing to some.08:44
NCommanderpersia, come again08:44
NCommanderI was just about to put slangsek on qdb.us08:44
* NCommander runs08:44
persiaNCommander: Differences between https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-July/004275.html  and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-August/004389.html08:45
persiaAlso, which some chatter is good to maintain our team spirit, too much random poking or abuse is generally to be avoided.08:46
NCommanderI'm aware08:46
NCommanderI'll post it tommorow08:46
emgentdholbach: your face is in my launchpad profile now, lol :-)08:47
dholbach:)08:48
NCommanderThere won't happen to be an #ubuntu-* fortune file, would there?08:48
NCommanderSO our insanity can be collected for future generations?08:49
persiaGenerally we try to avoid such insanity, but conceivably such a package could be constructed.08:50
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
IulianG'morning09:20
huatsmorning everyone09:25
huatsTheMuso: are you around ?09:25
stefanlsdxhi guys :)09:57
=== stefanlsdx is now known as stefanlsd
emgentmoin stefanlsd :)09:59
didrocksHi everyone,10:13
didrocksI'm currently working on bug #6103910:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 61039 in sgt-puzzles "No desktop entries" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/6103910:14
didrocksI have already be done some work on it (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DidierRoche/MOTU/bugsaction)10:14
aboganiGood morning all!10:14
didrocksbut I don't really know what is the right way to manage the icons installation (as there is a lot of them: for 27 games)10:15
didrocksas it is more explicity explained on the previous link, the question is in the "TODO AND QUESTION" question, if you need more information, do not hesitate to ask :)10:15
persiadidrocks: Are you sure you want to add all those?  That's a *huge* extra chunk of stuff to get installed.10:19
persiaMind you, most of them are good games, and separate executables.10:20
didrockspersia: I spoke about it with the debian upstream maintenair and he is ok for putting them (if I provide the debdiff :))10:21
persiadidrocks: Yes, he would be :)10:21
persiasgt-puzzles would also benefit from improvement of the debian menu files to use the icons.10:21
persiaAlthough there are surely wiser xdg-compliant locations, I tend to err on the side of putting everything in /usr/share/pixmaps and /usr/share/applications/10:22
didrocksbut /usr/share/pixmaps are not only for pixmaps image files ?10:22
persiaIf you using the same names for the pixmaps and .desktop files as for binaries in /usr/games/ there is a relatively low chance of conflict.10:23
didrocksok, so, I should rename in debian/rules <package_source>/icons/blackbox-32d24.png to usr/share/pixmaps/blackbox.png10:23
didrocksbut I really do not see how to do it in a clever way (that is to say, not putting 27 install lines in debian/rules) :)10:24
persiadidrocks: Yes.  Also, if you can provide a 32x32 .xpm for each of them, that would make the debian menu look good too (which is especially nice if you're sending the patch to Debian)10:24
persiadh_install10:24
didrockswith a .install file, that's it?10:25
persiaThen in debian/sgt-puzzles.install (or debian/install) put "./icons/*png usr/share/pixmaps" or something.10:25
joaopintoHello10:25
persiaYep.  That makes debian/rules easier to read, and lets you manage the install separately.  Mind you, it's only good to do this if the maintainer is using debhelper.10:26
didrocksthis is the case here, hopefully :)10:26
didrocksso, the idea is to create <game_name>.xpm10:27
didrocksand then dh_install to install them using a debian/sgt-puzzles.install file10:28
persiadidrocks: Yes indeed.  You can also probably move the manpages install into dh_installman and the help into part of dh_installdocs10:28
persiaOf course, this might not work (depending on permissions, etc.), in which case leaving it in the current way is best.10:28
didrocksif some renaming is necessary (like <game_name>-32d24.png to <game_name>.png, is it possible to use in debian/sgt-puzzles.install some bash scripting?10:29
didrocksok, I note that about manpages and help :)10:29
persiaNo.  If you're going to rename things, you need to do that in debian/rules.  dh_install cannot rename, and cannot set special permissions.10:30
didrockspersia: is there a good example with renaming or stuff like that (even if I will not use it there), just for next time I will need it :)10:30
persiaGenerally I just call install -m$(permissions) $(source) $(target).10:32
persiaIf this can be automated in some way, you could use a make directive of some sort, although most people seem to give up and use the shell for loop.10:33
* persia likes $(foreach ...) and pattern-matching targets, but these are hard to explain10:33
didrocksso, just put the shell script loop in debian/rules to call install -m..., isn't it?10:33
didrocks(for the easy way before going further ;))10:34
persiadidrocks: If you want to learn make properly, no, but that's the easy way.10:34
didrocksok, I will try to give a look at $(foreach ...) as for pattern-matching, I think I'm used to it :)10:35
didrockspersia: thank you so much for your time and patience :)10:35
persiaNote that in my experience, most Debian Maintainers are more comfortable in shell than in make, so doing it that way may also make it easier to get reviewed and applied in Debian.10:35
didrocksoh, ok, noted!10:35
persia(but debian/rules *is* a makefile, so people who have the freedom to do it properly in make should)10:35
didrocksok, that's a long time I hadn't touch a complex makefile by hand (IDE's rules...), but I will take a look on it10:36
didrocksso, now, I just have to get back to work on it, thanks a lot!10:37
=== emgent is now known as pint
=== pint is now known as emgent
huatshello persia10:52
persiahuats: Hello.10:54
huatshow are you ?10:54
persiaOK.  You?10:54
huatsso do I :)10:55
SolarWaronce a new package makes its way into ubuntu, do I need to go through the approval process again (eg two advocates) to keep the package up todate or is there a different process for packages that are already in ubuntu ?11:01
SolarWarkeep the package up to date -> with respect to the upstream tarball11:02
persiaSolarWar: A different process.  You just open a bug against the package, attach the updated diff.gz, and subscribe the sponsors queue.11:03
SolarWarwhats a sponsor?11:03
persiasomeone who uploads stuff for people without upload permission.11:04
persiaSolarWar: You may find it useful to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing11:05
SolarWarpersia, thanks this is usefull now11:06
SolarWarpreviously i was just concerned with packaging correctly :)11:06
thekornhi MOTUs! - I've got two workflow related questions:11:07
thekornwhat's the way to get python-sphinx into hardy?11:07
thekornand what is the best way to get the latest release into intrepid?11:08
POX__ask for sync with Debian ?11:09
huatswarp10: thanks for the approval in the team ;)11:10
warp10huats: my pleasure! It's 150€, thanks :)11:11
huats;)11:11
huatsok11:11
huatsdidrocks will pay them for me :)11:11
DktrKranzwarp10, wasn't tax free for the first year?11:11
warp10DktrKranz: acceptation and application review fee. First year is free indeed 0:-)11:12
persiathekorn: FOr hardy, I think you'd need backports, but for intrepid a sync addresses the problem.11:13
thekornpersia, ok, thanks, but debian does not have the latest version yet, so I have to ask for an update there first, right?11:15
persiaOh.  I thought 0.4.2 might have been the latest.  What is the latest?11:15
thekorn0.4.311:15
persiaPOX__: What do you think the chances are of an update in Debian?11:15
POX__persia: I uploaded newest package lately, so changes are good ;P11:16
POX__oh, 0.4.3 is released11:16
POX__I uploaded 0.4.211:16
persiaThat's what I thought.  Will you get shot for another update?11:16
POX__I didn't receive RFS for 0.4.3 yet11:17
POX__if I get one, I'll probably upload to experimental for now, 0.4.2 is waiting for transition into testing11:17
persiathekorn: Are you able to prepare an update for 0.4.3 to submit an RFS, or do you need someone else to do that?11:17
=== YokoZar1 is now known as YokoZar
POX__persia, thekorn: I will ask Maintainer to update it11:18
thekornpersia, honestly, I've never done real packaging11:18
persiaPOX__: Even better.  Thank you.11:18
thekornpersia, POX__ , thanks so much11:18
persiathekorn: Just wait a bit and watch debian Experimental.  0.4.3 ought get there in a bit, and we can sync from Experimental.11:19
thekorncool, super11:19
thekornone question, what's an RFS?11:19
directhexrequest for sausage11:19
persiaRequest-for-Sponsorship.11:19
persiaIt's a Debian abbreviation used to describe the sort of email one sends to a list to request upload sponsorship in Debian.11:20
persiaSending an RFS is roughly analogous to subscribing the sponsors queue.11:20
thekornpersia, thanks11:20
jelmerhi!11:37
jelmerOne of the comments I received for my packages uploaded to REVU is that I should use a patch system11:38
didrockshuats: I have so many credits because of you :) (sorry network breakage at my company ^^^)11:38
jelmerthe package is maintained in a Bazaar branch though, is that sufficient?11:38
directhexjelmer, is it a native package, i.e. the package itself has a debian/ directory which is used for making ubuntu packages?11:39
jelmerdirecthex, no, it's not a native package but upstream is in bzr as well11:39
persiajelmer: So upstream is in bzr, and packaging is in bzr, and you want to keep it that way to ease merging of patches for new upstreams?11:40
directhexjelmer, as part of the packaging process, do you (the package maintainer) make any changes whatsoever to files outside the debian/ folder ?11:40
jelmerpersia, yep11:40
jelmeryes, there are some minor changes I made outside the debian folder11:40
persiajelmer: Then you *don't* want a patch system, but you do want to make sure to have good Vcs-* information in debian/control11:41
persiaUnfortunately, we've not currently a good system to handle the permissions for those :(11:41
persiajelmer: Which package?11:42
jelmerpersia, loggerhead11:42
persialoggerhead is becoming an Ubuntu package?  My11:42
arahello, one quick question, does anyone remember the command to get the candidate version of a package for all ubuntu versions???11:43
directhexapt-cache policy?11:44
persiaara: How do you mean?  rmadison will tell you the most recently available version for each release, but candidates typically need to be larger than this, and are often manually constructed.11:44
arapersia: rmadison is what i was looking for, ta!11:44
persiaKopfgeldjaeger: Yes, patch systems are nice, but no, they aren't always the solution.  If one manages a source package in a VCS, having a patch system can make it significantly *more* difficult to reconcile upstream updates.11:45
zorglu_apt-get doesnt handle http redirect ?11:54
wgrantI believe that is correct.11:54
zorglu_?11:55
* zorglu_ is amazed11:55
zorglu_W: Failed to fetch http://urfastr.net/apt/http://fr.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy/restricted/binary-i386/Packages.gz  302 Found11:55
azeemmaybe it's because of security considerations11:56
zorglu_http redirect is a security hole ?11:56
StevenKzorglu_: apt doesn't handle 30x redirects.11:56
zorglu_StevenK: any specific reason ? or just a poor http implementation11:57
wgrantDebian bug 47935011:57
ubottuDebian bug 479350 in apt-get "apt-get does not follow redirects over http" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/47935011:57
wgrantThat has rationale.11:57
zorglu_wgrant: well the rationnal is "no support because some mirror are misconfigured"11:59
zorglu_wgrant: i dont know for you, but im not ultra convinced :)11:59
StevenKzorglu_: No, that isn't the rationale at all.12:00
StevenKzorglu_: mod_speling isn't misconfiguration, it allows the mirrors to provide packages the user didn't ask for, which is *bad*.12:00
POX__thekorn: Mikhail told me that he will ask for an upload of sphinx 0.4.3 once 0.4.2 will migrate into Lenny (9 days)12:01
zorglu_StevenK: and this is not misconfig ?12:01
POX__he's busy with other pacakges at the moment so 0.4.3 will not be uploaded to experimental12:01
StevenKzorglu_: How exactly is mod_speling a misconfiguration?12:01
zorglu_StevenK: so it is properly configured but provide bad packages ? i dont get it12:01
StevenKzorglu_: Okay, so it isn't a misconfiguration, it's that mod_speling provides functionality that can redirect users to download packages that they didn't ask for, if apt follows the redirect. This is a bad thing.12:03
zorglu_you call that the way you want :)12:04
azeemI think we called it like that all the time12:04
zorglu_"bad thing" is a nice word too12:04
zorglu_ok so the solution to this mod_speling issue is not to support http redirect ?12:05
persiazorglu_: "bad thing" == "unacceptable unrequested misconfiguration of user systems"12:05
zorglu_not to fix/enhance mod_speling to give the proper package ?12:05
azeemStevenK: however, the rogue Release.gpg would not validate against the GPG key the user has, would it?12:05
StevenKazeem: Hold on12:05
azeemunless the user ignores or disables that12:05
zorglu_well if the user disable the security, it is its problem12:06
StevenKazeem, zorglu_: Okay, say apt did follow the redirect. You see an upgrade to base-files in the Packages.gz file. You go to download it, but the mirror admin has deleted that .deb, and put base-files_4.0.haha_all.deb there instead which runs "rm -rf /" during the postinst.12:06
StevenKNo touching of the Packages.gz or Release.gpg needed12:06
persiaazeem: Imagine the case where it replaces e.g. apt-file with e.g. aptitude, and both are signed by the same key.12:06
StevenKpersia: Not even, it's even simpler. ^12:06
zorglu_StevenK: ???12:07
zorglu_StevenK: how does this relate to http redirect ?12:07
persiaStevenK: That gets caught by the incorrect checksum on package download (for those sufficiently paranoid to check)12:07
azeemStevenK: wouldn't the Packages.gz's md5sum then be out-of-sync against the data in Release?12:07
thekornPOX__, thanks for your information12:08
StevenKazeem: Packages.gz doesn't need to be changed12:08
persiaazeem: Only if someone reran the archive scripts.  It's the content of the file that wouldn't match to Packages.gz.12:08
azeemStevenK: or what do you mean with "you see an upgrade... in the Package.gz"?12:08
azeempersia: which file?12:08
StevenKazeem: I mean a new legimate upgrade is there.12:08
azeemok12:08
zorglu_StevenK: how all this relate to http redirect12:08
persiaI think the case of grabbing e.g. 0.4.2-3ubuntu3~hardy1 instead of 0.4.1-2ubuntu6.1 was more insidious12:08
azeemwhy would apt download base-files_4.0.haha_all.deb?12:09
StevenKBut the mirror admin deleted the .deb, and put base-files_4.0.haha_all.deb in it's place, and enabled mod_speling so it downloads it.12:09
StevenKazeem: The asumption here is that apt follows 30x redirects12:09
azeem"it's place"?12:09
azeemok12:09
persiaazeem: It's somewhere in the directory.12:09
geserdoesn't apt compare the md5sum of the downloaded deb against the one in Packages.gz?12:09
azeembut then the md5sum of base-files_4.0.haha_all.deb wouldn't match the deleted .deb's md5sum in the Packages.gz12:09
zorglu_geser: i hope so :) or it is a major security hole :)12:10
zorglu_geser: and suddently http redirect is really a very small issue :)12:10
geserI hope so too, else the gpg signing of the archive would be useless12:10
zorglu_geser: because this would mean that any mirror admin could crack *many* computers12:11
azeemStevenK: my point is that maybe the reservations against http redirects are from times when we didn't have Release/Packages file signing12:11
zorglu_hence my repeated question: how all this related to http redirect12:11
azeemah, I now understand mod_speling implications12:12
persiazorglu_: If you're certain it is safe now, you'd do best to attach a patch and make a case to the bug, rather than here.12:12
zorglu_persia: im not the maintainer of this12:13
StevenKNeither are we12:13
persiaFirstly, apt isn't in universe, and secondly, it's exceedingly unlikely to be accepted as a variance from Debian.12:13
zorglu_else you would have http redirect for a long time: )12:13
azeempersia: I think Kamion makes a good point, only allow redirects for the same filename12:13
persiazorglu_: How does whether you are the maintainer have anything to do with you submitting a patch and explanation why the patch is now safe?12:13
zorglu_persia: the likelyhood to be included12:13
* persia is fairly certain that nick is deprecated12:13
zorglu_persia: aka the fact i do the patch has nothing to do with feature in it or not12:14
persiazorglu_: Right.  Still, adding to the bug would be useful.  Arguing here is pointless.12:14
azeemand I think the reservations about mod_speling are not all security implications, but just annoyances for users, cause it would hand out the wrong .debs if the one they want is not there, and then APT would complain12:14
persiaAlso, the assumption that someone else would create the patch because you argued with them is presumptive.12:14
azeems/not all/not at all/12:14
zorglu_persia: ok lets be productive. i would like to do a mirror. how can i workaround this "feature" of no http redirect in apt-get12:14
\shthe easy solution: ipvs and forward your old ip to the new one....12:15
azeemzorglu_: why do you need it?12:15
persiazorglu_: Don't require redirect in your mirror implementation.12:15
zorglu_ok so no way to work around this ?12:15
azeemzorglu_: work around /what/?12:15
zorglu_the "feature" :)12:15
azeemzorglu_: other mirrors seem to get along fine12:15
\shzorglu_: what do you want? mirror.domain.tld is deprecated and now you want to redirect to mirror2.domain.tld?12:15
persiazorglu_: What problem are you experiencing?12:16
\shwhy not forward the ip:port to anotherip:port?12:16
zorglu_\sh: the bandwidth would be used on both servers (if i understand what you mean)12:16
\shzorglu_: hmmm? no12:17
zorglu_\sh: what 'forward an ip" means then ?12:17
nixternalNCommander: pong! :)12:17
\shTCP  media.dev.webzooms.tv:1935 rr12:17
\sh  -> fms-edge-2.dev.webzooms.tv:1 Route   1      0          012:17
\shsomething like this12:17
sistpoty|workhi folks12:17
nixternalwoo, someone wants to help REVU coordination...yay \o/12:17
zorglu_\sh: at the BGP (ip routing) level ?12:18
\shzorglu_: bgp has nothing to do with it12:18
zorglu_\sh: ok what is your dump ? what 'forward an ip" mean ?12:18
StevenKBGP is a routing protocol.12:19
zorglu_\sh: you mean "forwarding the tcp connection at the netfilter level" ?12:19
persiaWell, even a routing information protocol12:19
stefanlsdIm doing a merge - in the debian rules I have    -$(MAKE) distclean         . Does the - there mean anything special?12:20
sistpoty|workstefanlsd: it means ignore if make distclean fails12:20
persiastefanlsd: It means to ignore errors returned from the command.12:20
\shzorglu_: ok to make it easy12:20
sistpoty|work(e.g. if there would be no Makefile because make distclean was already run before)12:20
\shzorglu_: your mirror has ip : 192.168.1.2 and your apache listens on port 8012:20
persiastefanlsd: Generally this is discouraged as it's better to trap specific errors, but it's not worth preseving an Ubuntu variation for.12:20
\shzorglu_: your new machine has the ip 192.168.1.9 and has an apache on port 80, too12:21
stefanlsdthanks guys12:21
zorglu_\sh: ah ok, here you assume both computer are on the same LAN12:21
stefanlsdpersia: If i am doing an ubuntu revision anyways to fix something else, should I then try trap the error rather?12:21
nixternalNCommander: I am getting ready to head to work, but I will be back on in a bit...If you guys are interested in creating a REVU team, I so support that because my time has shrunk to about null right now12:21
\shzorglu_: it doesn't matter on which lan/wan/ip they are on...it's really transparent12:22
* persia doesn't think we need an LP team for that, just interested people working with the REVU Coordinator to help throughput12:22
zorglu_\sh: ok so i keep listening12:22
DktrKranzKopfgeldjaeger, package accepted into universe ;)12:22
\shzorglu_: it's layer 4 switching the whole idea12:22
\shzorglu_: http://www.linuxvirtualserver.org/software/ipvs.html12:22
zorglu_\sh: if you get a solution without using both server bandwidth and without http redirect, im all hear :)12:23
KopfgeldjaegerDktrKranz: wwoooo \o/ thank you :)  *hug*12:23
wgrantYou could of course be boring and just repoint the DNS name...12:23
persiaAnd maybe run both servers for 3xTTL to be safe.12:24
\shzorglu_: the bandwidth of the new server is used only..., only for the start point (thinking about mirror.domain.tld will directed to 192.168.1.2) you need your old machine...or a new one with the old ip12:24
wgrantpersia: I'd hope so.12:24
\shwgrant: damn...that's the easy solution ,)12:24
zorglu_not a working solution unfortunatly12:24
zorglu_all that for some misconfig mirror several years ago...12:25
persiazorglu_: Why is that not a working solution?12:25
\shzorglu_: the whole idea is this : http://www.howtoforge.com/set-up-a-loadbalanced-ha-apache-cluster-ubuntu8.0412:25
persiazorglu_: Also, please state the problem you are encountering.12:25
zorglu_persia: ok i need apt-get to implement a normal http12:26
\shzorglu_: the old machine with old ip takes the connect and forwards it to another server, another server has different default route but real connects your clients12:26
zorglu_persia: how do i do that ?12:26
zorglu_persia: and i would llike ubuntu people to get it too :)12:26
persiazorglu_: No.  What problem are you experiencing for which you believe that to be a solution?12:26
zorglu_persia: tomorrow if possible :)12:26
zorglu_a mirror system12:27
\shthis is what big boys do...first think, then plan, then think again, replan, then implement ;)12:27
\shzorglu_: archive.ubuntu.com is nothing else then a mirror system12:27
persiaOK.  There are lots of mirrors.  Explain the problem.12:27
zorglu_i guess i got communication problem12:27
\shzorglu_: it's behind a dns rr..and other people are just doing layer 4 switching which means, they are using f5 network big ip, or ipvs, or whatever lb system is there, to just hide the real servers12:28
zorglu_lets me think a bit, maybe i can workaround this "feature"12:28
persiazorglu_: What doesn't work?12:28
zorglu_after all apt-get has this feature for year, it is not anywhere close to be fixed12:28
zorglu_\sh: they do a lot but dont support proper http in apt-get :)12:29
directhexhow can a source package generate binaries in both universe and main?12:29
persiadirecthex: The source must be in main, and nothing in main must depend or build-depend on some of the binaries.12:29
zorglu_\sh: do you know if fedora/redhat and go, got the same "feature" ?12:29
StevenKzorglu_: It *does* support "proper" HTTP, it chooses not to follow 30x redirects.12:30
persiazorglu_: What issue do you encounter which would be fixed by apt supporting redirects?12:30
\shzorglu_: apt4rpm has the same feature, yum is broken by default, zypper I don't know, and smart is following apt afaiks12:30
zorglu_\sh: yum support http redirect ?12:30
\shzorglu_: yum is broken...12:30
directhexpersia, i mean physically. how's it set in the source package?12:30
persiadirecthex: It's not: it is set in the archive.12:30
zorglu_\sh: you mean he got "features" :)12:31
\shzorglu_: no I mean it's broken12:31
zorglu_\sh: what do you mean by broken ?12:31
directhexpersia, oh. i see. hm, looks like a sync might be enough rather than a merge then12:32
persiaz12:32
\shzorglu_: it only support rpm-md repos...and it's totally slow and the last time i used it for sles9 it didn't even have a good and working architecture recognition system12:32
persiadirecthex: I've lost context.  What are you trying to accomplish?12:32
zorglu_\sh: ah ok12:32
zorglu_\sh: well maybe it got http, that's all i need for now12:32
zorglu_now i just have to setup a fedora vm to test :)12:33
\shzorglu_: but as I said, you have an infrastructure problem...your problem is not apt or http...a 30x redirect something temporarily...and not a good use for a package mirror12:33
zorglu_thanks guys :)12:33
zorglu_\sh: i could trivially implement the system i want if apt-get would respect http12:33
directhexpersia, i want to update the package "monodoc". the 1.2.6-1ubuntu1 merge made some changes to the build process in order to avoid making monodoc-http Depends: on something in universe. monodoc-http is itself already in universe, so i don't see the problem12:33
persiazorglu_: What system?  WIth a use case, it may be able to do so.12:33
directhexpersia, and the monodoc source package is in main, in case that wasn't clear12:34
zorglu_persia: may being the operating word :)12:34
persiadirecthex: No source in main may build-depend on any binary in universe, although it may generate binaries that end up in universe.12:34
zorglu_ok all in all thanks for the info12:34
persiaBah.  Without any explanation, there's no chance at all.12:34
* \sh gives up...that's too semi-amateure..well, and normally he will have the same problem with yum or whatever not following 30x and not using whatever he tries to do12:35
directhexpersia, aha, i hadn't noticed the differing build-depends12:35
persiadirecthex: Yeah.  stuff on the border is tricky.12:35
directhexlooks like a merge, then. how tiresome12:36
directhexthen waiting for u-m-s. wheeeee12:36
persiadirecthex: Is u-m-s that much worse than u-u-s?12:36
directhexmuch more fickle, maybe?12:40
* DktrKranz did a quick stat: u-u-s has *116* unique packages to be reviewed, u-m-s has *72*12:40
DktrKranzhalf the open bugs in u-m-s are debian/upstream tasks which should be removed from the list, actually12:42
dholbachDktrKranz: better use https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-main-sponsors and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-universe-sponsors12:43
DktrKranzdholbach, exactly. I have my own LP queries to exclude uninteresting remote bugs from sight.12:44
directhexam i the only one who finds MOTU/Contibuting entirely unclear in places?12:45
sistpoty|workhm... seems like there's more revu documentation spread across the wiki, which needs to get updated12:46
persiadirecthex: It's massively out of date.  What is confusing?12:48
directhexpersia, i just find the bit on mergine new upstream from debian unclear12:49
stefanlsdDoes anyone have a view on the following bug and patch - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netkit-tftp/+bug/217537     . I am doing a merge of the netkit-tftpd from Debian and this bug isn't fixed.  It looks ok to me, but I dont really understand enough C to make a decision on it...12:50
ubottuLaunchpad bug 217537 in netkit-tftp "Read mode should return ENOTFOUND instead of EUNDEF for files that do not exist." [Undecided,New]12:50
sistpoty|worksuperm1|away: did you come around merging nvidia-settings yet? if not, mind if I'll take a look at it tonight?12:52
sistpoty|workoh, tseliot: just saw that you removed conflicts from nvidia-settings. I'll need to undo this. Just a hint: versioned conflicts should almost never be dropped12:53
persiadirecthex: Do you mean "If your revision is a merge from Debian..." ?12:56
directhexpersia, yeah.12:56
persiadirecthex: Which part is confusing?13:04
directhexpersia, use of the word "new"13:04
persiadirecthex: Ah.  How do you think it should be phrased?13:04
directhexpersia, if i want to merge 1.9-1.2 from debian, and 1.2.6-1ubuntu3 is the ubuntu version, then which number goes where in "debdiff packagename_version-debianrevision.dsc packagename_version-newrevision.dsc" ?13:05
directhexthe debian version is newer, and the debian version is the debian version13:05
directhexperhaps i should diff 1.9-1.2 1.9-1.2! \o/13:05
persiaMaybe.  I was thinking that the "new" revision would be the one the merger prepared.13:06
stefanlsdIf i have a patch file that someone provided, and I want to include it in a merge ubuntu release.   Is the recommended way to use  dpatch.. ?13:06
geserstefanlsd: depends on the package13:06
stefanlsdgeser: the package currently is not using any patching system (dpatch or cdbs..)13:07
stefanlsdor any other i dont know about :)13:07
geserstefanlsd: how big are the changes?13:08
stefanlsdgeser: small. difference of 3 lines...13:08
geserstefanlsd: they apply it directly, adding support for dpatch or quilt would be bigger than the patch itself13:10
geserstefanlsd: if the package uses cdbs you could use simple-patchsys (or how it is exactly called)13:10
stefanlsdgeser: ok. thanks, will do.  Just thought it may be easier in the long run for maintainability - but cool. will apply directly :)13:11
ScottKIf the patch is relevant to Debian, you'll want to send it to them in a bug so they maintain it.  ;-)13:13
stefanlsdScottK: nodnod. I will submit upstream also13:13
ScottKYokoZar: Could the vm.mmap_min_addr change for wine perhaps be off by default.  It seems like something only a minority of apps need and I don't generally find myself thinking, "Hey, it's a Windows executable, I think I want less security on this."13:27
YokoZarScottK: I don't think it's a good idea.  A good chunk of modern apps are making 16 bit calls somewhere along the line, including stuff like the .net installer (!)13:28
directhexthe ms.net installer works?13:29
ScottKOK.  I thought from reading mail is was old stuff only.13:29
YokoZarScottK: It is.  But remember that Windows applications often made DOS system calls even as late as 9913:29
directhexYokoZar, which is lovely for those of us running 64-bit windows, which has no 16-bit subsystems13:30
YokoZardirecthex: I imagine it'll be at least 5 years before we see win64 apps that aren't also win3213:31
directhexYokoZar, MOAR registers!13:32
tseliotsistpoty|work: what's the use case for those conflicts and recommends? Currently each nvidia-glx-VER Recommends: nvidia-settings13:38
sistpoty|worktseliot: the use case of the conflicts is to ensure that the upgrade path works13:42
tseliotsistpoty|work: the upgrade of what?13:42
sistpoty|worktseliot: since iirc the nvidia-settings binary used to live in nvidia-glx (or whatever the conflicts are against) and then has been moved to nvidia-settings (and part time overlapped)13:43
sistpoty|worktseliot: so you couldn't install both at the same time13:43
tseliotsistpoty|work: ok but this is no longer the case13:44
sistpoty|worktseliot: so in case there is a system, which still has the older version (with the conflicting file) installed, that upgrades to intrepid, the upgrade might fail13:44
sistpoty|work(because you don't know wether apt will upgrade one or the other package first, if there are no conflicts specified)13:44
sistpoty|workI guess it might be safe to drop the conflicts in this case, as I guess we can assume that we don't support upgrades from a pre-LTS version, but they don't really hurt13:46
tseliotsistpoty|work: good point. In Update manager I think we check the nvidia-glx package first and upgrade it according to the hardware detection perform through nvidia-common.13:56
tseliotsistpoty|work: the gutsy package of nvidia-settings conflicts with nvidia-glx, nvidia-glx-new13:56
tseliotsistpoty|work: I was worried about the Recommends which made nvidia-settings install the old nvidia packages14:06
=== ember_ is now known as ember
sistpoty|worktseliot: dropping recommends is no problem14:09
tseliotsistpoty|work: ok, then we've come to an agreement ;)14:10
sistpoty|workheh :)14:10
bhavi_Hello all14:14
bhavi_please help me : http://pastebin.com/d101d4489 is this a correct rules file?14:15
superm1|awaysistpoty|work, no i got distracted by some other stuff that popped up.14:18
superm1|awayyou can have it if you want, otherwise i should be able to try again this weekend14:18
sistpoty|worksuperm1|away: well I won't come around before somewhen this evening... I'll just drop a note here when I start, ok?14:19
superm1|awayokay sound good14:19
bddebianHeya gang14:32
huatshey bddebian14:32
sistpoty|workhi bddebian14:33
ScottKHeya bddebian.14:33
bddebianHi huats, sistpoty|work, ScottK14:33
ScottKbddebian: Got all those RC bugs fixed yet?14:33
bddebianHeh, not quite.  I thought you were taking care of them? :)14:34
=== superm1|away is now known as superm1
geserHi bddebian !1!14:38
bddebianHeya geser14:38
persiasistpoty|work: tseliot: The only supported upgrade path to intrepid is from hardy, so we might be able to drop all the conflicts stuff from nvidia-settings14:38
sistpoty|workpersia: unless there could be funny situations like for xserver-xorg-driver-ati (which was gone after dapper, but never conflicted against, and hence broke my intrepid upgrade *g*)14:39
persiasistpoty|work: Oh my.  Yes.  Still, if the conflicts were in hardy, the necessary bits should have been wiped for intrepid (but we may need new conflicts for intrepid)14:42
sistpoty|workpersia: well, the question is if all packages that contained file conflicts had new versions in hardy. if so it's safe to drop the conflicts. if one of them vanished it's not safe.14:43
persiasistpoty|work: I'll defer to proper investigation then.14:43
sistpoty|workeither that or I'm conservative and just leave them there. it definitely won't hurt to have them (and we can't sync anyways iirc, but I'm gonna find out more once I start really looking at it *G*)14:44
tseliotsistpoty|work, persia: the packages which conflicted with nvidia-settings are nvidia-glx nvidia-glx-new. *Currently* they're both in Intrepid but are deprecated. Keeping the Conflicts wouldn't hurt14:46
persiatseliot: OK.  If you think it won't hurt anything, I won't protest.14:47
* persia just wants to avoid another upload ping-pong match when the nVidia-using machine may be turned on a few weeks before intrepid release14:48
sistpoty|workpersia: keeping versioned conflicts can *never* hurt ;)14:48
sistpoty|work(unless these were wrong in the first place of course14:49
sistpoty|work+)14:49
persiasistpoty|work: Well, except where it blocks a sync that means we don't have so much work to do later, but in this case, yes, there are other reasons we can't sync.14:49
persiaheh14:49
sistpoty|workheh, well hurt in the sense of introducing a bug *g*14:50
tseliotpersia: the upgrade to the new nvidia packages (with the new name schemes) should be smooth, nvidia-common will deal with it, since it's used by Update Manager. If however you decide to dist-upgrade from the command line, nvidia-common will bug you to death with Debconf until you install the suggested package ;)14:50
persiatseliot: Then that package should be recommended.14:50
persiaPutting more special-casing into Update Manager should be avoided until we have little choice due to freezes.14:51
tseliotpersia: currently it is recommended by Update Manager, however it should become  a dependency since recommended packages are not installed by default on Hardy14:51
tseliotand without nvidia-common the upgrade will fail14:52
tseliotpersia: ok, it won't fail but you will keep using a driver which doesn't work14:52
persiatseliot: nvidia-common is recommended by update-manager (the package) or by an Update Manager hint?14:53
sistpoty|workoh, update manager should really have the hint to not leave my gf's laptop without X after an upgrade *g*14:54
sistpoty|work(tried two times, failed two times)14:54
tseliotpersia: I was convinced that nvidia-common was recommended by the package but it's not...14:54
persiatseliot: It oughtn't be, because many users don't need nvidia.14:55
persiasistpoty|work: Figure out the issue, and put in a hint if you like.  I suspect it's a matter of making X critical.14:55
tseliotpersia: nvidia-common is just a simple python script and has the nvidia modalias files as its dependencies14:55
persiaAnyway, I think update-manager hints should be a last resort: we should make the packages work cleanly anyway.14:55
sistpoty|workpersia: I guess it's the "if person in front of box == sistpoty then make upgrade harder" part ;)14:56
persiatseliot: Yes, but I may not want it on an intel system, if I've only a 2G disk.14:56
persiasistpoty|work: Oh, right.  I thought you'd like that bit.14:56
sistpoty|work*g*14:57
tseliotpersia: I understand. BTW jockey-common recommends nvidia-common14:57
persiatseliot: Which I don't like either: it offends my sense of purity.14:57
tseliotpersia: nvidia-common is 53kb14:59
ScottKSo if I use jockey to deal with my non-free wifi card driver I get nvidia-common installed by default?14:59
tseliotScottK: yes, I guess so14:59
persiaScottK: Yes.14:59
ScottKThat sounds wrong.14:59
persiatseliot: In the 2G scenario, that is still a lot.15:00
* persia notes that it's very much not easy to fit Ubuntu in 2G anyway, so every byte matters.15:00
tseliotScottK, persia: you should discuss this with pitti15:00
persiatseliot: See, every time I discuss something with pitti I get reminded of things I should do first :)15:00
tseliotpersia: it's not a bad thing, is it? :-P15:01
persiatseliot: Well, it means I'm unlikely to actually get to the complaint part :)15:01
tseliotheh15:02
tseliotScottK: my replacement for guidance-backends is ready (x-kit). I have also added the support for x-kit to Jockey15:03
ScottKtseliot: Great.15:04
tseliotScottK: the code is here: https://code.launchpad.net/~albertomilone/xorgparser/main15:04
ScottKIn KDE4 we can drop it anytime.15:04
ScottKtseliot: Is it in Intrepid yet?15:05
tbielawagood morning everyone15:05
tseliotScottK: not yet. We're working with bryce and pitti so as to introduce it soon15:05
ScottKSounds good.15:05
tseliotScottK: the gnome-control-center should use it too15:05
ScottKtseliot: Would you please talk to the mythbuntu people about it.15:06
tseliotScottK: I guess that only superm1 will use guidance15:06
tseliotScottK: sure15:06
ScottKYes.15:06
superm1well we'll switch to xkit when its ready15:06
superm1no problem15:06
tseliotsuperm1: great. The API is ready. If you give me a link to your code I can give you a hand15:07
superm1tseliot, let me see, it should be the mythbuntu-common bzr branch15:08
superm1https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/mythbuntu/mythbuntu-common15:08
ScottKsuperm1: I also see an rdepend on ubiquity-frontend-mythbuntu15:08
superm1ScottK, yeah that was before mythbuntu-common was depending on it directly15:09
superm1so that will need to be resolved too15:09
ScottKSo that's just a matter of dropping the depends then?15:09
superm1ScottK, yeah it will be15:10
tseliotsuperm1: ok, I'll have a look at it.15:11
superm1ScottK, okay i fixed that in ubiquity bzr15:12
tseliotsuperm1: is it only vnc.py that uses guidance?15:13
tseliotsuperm1: if so, it will take me only few minutes to replace the guidance code with x-kit's15:15
superm1tseliot, yeah that's it15:15
tseliotgreat :-)15:15
=== Czessi__ is now known as Czessi
JontheEchidnaOk, so I lost internet connection while uploading to revu15:35
JontheEchidnaand now it says that the file is already on the server15:35
Hobbseedput -f15:35
ScottKor rm the .upload file15:36
JontheEchidnarm'ing the upload file worked15:36
JontheEchidnathanks15:36
=== superm1 is now known as superm1|away
=== superm1|away is now known as superm1
RainCTis there some list of %x thingies which can be used in .desktop files? :P16:13
persiaRainCT: What do you mean?  Experimental keys?  Experimental values?16:20
persiaOn an unrelated note, if anyone is good with schroots: how can I get a usefully populated /sys in a chroot?16:21
sistpoty|workpersia: you could bind-mount one *g*16:21
persiaSpecificially, timidity currently won't install in my chroots, but installs fine on a normal system.  Apparently this comes from a lack of anything in /dev/snd/16:22
superm1persia, you could just mknod stuff in /dev/sdn during debian/rules16:22
persiasistpoty|work: OK.  How?  /proc/mounts lists /sys as mounted, it just doesn't have any useful data.16:22
superm1 /dev/snd that is16:22
persiasuperm1: Yes, but I don't really want to do that, if I can avoid it: it's a terribly dirty hack.16:22
persiaEssentially, nothing should build-dep on timidity anyway, so this is only interesting in the case of building images.16:23
sistpoty|workpersia: s.th. like mount -o bind /sys /var/stuff/chroots/unstable/sys16:23
superm1persia, i promise i won't tell anyone :)  I  think bind mounts are the only way to get useful stuff though16:23
sistpoty|work(adjust pathes as necessary)16:23
superm1you could just bind mount your /dev/snd instead then16:23
persiasuperm1: I think I need useful, as broken entries may well also cause the installation to fail16:23
superm1rather than a whole directory and introducing the security vulnerabilities16:23
persia(why is it a good idea to start daemons at installation time again?  Can't they be started later?)16:24
lagathey can16:24
lagabut i forgot how to do that ;)16:24
superm1so that users can start using apps immediately rather than having to read about how to start them or rebooting16:24
ScottKpersia: Because the package is supposed to work after you install it.  For a daemon to work it has to run.16:25
superm1dh_installinit has a parameter to control this behavior16:25
persiaScottK: Yes, I know, and in every other case I want that.16:26
persiasuperm1: Yes, but that doesn't solve this one.16:27
persiasistpoty|work: bind mounting seems to populate /sys, but it doesn't trigger udev16:27
ScottKSo edit exit 0 in at the top of the init and remove it later.16:27
sistpoty|workpersia: then bind-mount /dev as well16:27
persiasistpoty|work: Right.  Thanks.  I can now prove the problem.16:29
sistpoty|worknp16:30
persiaSo, in order to install timidity, one must first have working device files in /dev/snd/ and secondly have run the asoundconf set-default-card macro16:30
persiaNow I just have to figure out how to do this within the context of a chroot (or maybe hack around it)16:31
RainCTpersia: serpentine for example has "%U" in the Exec= line16:42
RainCTpersia: ah, found it, nevermind16:42
RainCTthey are explained in the spec, I just hadn't noticed them before16:43
persiaRainCT: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s06.html16:44
persiaOh.  You already found it :)16:44
RainCTpersia: yes, but thanks anyway :)16:44
tgm4883_laptopI tried uploading something to REVU last night (mythstream-parser-youtube) and everything appeared ok, but it doesn't appear on http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/17:08
tgm4883_laptopI believe I've followed all the instructions at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU17:09
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: did you login with openid to revu yet?17:13
tgm4883_laptopyes17:14
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: and merged accounts?17:14
tgm4883_laptopno17:14
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: then please do so ;)17:14
tgm4883_laptopah ok17:14
tgm4883_laptopsec17:14
tgm4883_laptopwill i need to reupload?17:14
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: I can put your package right back in the queue17:14
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: did you intent to make a native package btw.?17:15
RainCTsistpoty|work: merging accounts isn't necessary to be able to upload17:15
sistpoty|workRainCT: oh... interesting :)17:15
tgm4883_laptopapparenlty I don't have an old revu account17:16
persiaRainCT: But it does appear to send a refresh event, which can fix some failures.17:16
sistpoty|workRainCT: I'll call move_uploads then, and see what happens17:16
tgm4883_laptopsistpoty|work, I don't believe so.  By native package, you mean packaged specifically for a debian system?17:16
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: yes... at least that's what's left in revu's queue... but it seems s.th. is wrong/missing there17:17
persiaWhat does move_uploads do?17:17
sistpoty|workRainCT: did you just call move_uploads as well?17:17
* persia always uses cp to reinsert into the queue17:17
RainCTpersia: process the queue17:17
RainCTsistpoty|work: nope, I'm just looking at the file in rejected/17:17
sistpoty|workRainCT: strange, where have the other two files gone to?17:18
sistpoty|work(.dsc, .tar.gz17:18
sistpoty|work+)17:18
tgm4883_laptopsistpoty|work, ah yes, I didn't write the software, just packaging it, so it isn't meant to be a native debian pckage17:18
RainCTtgm4883_laptop: btw, the Maintainer must have an @ubuntu.com address; set it to MOTU Team if you don't have one (you can leave your name as XSBC-Original-Maintainer)17:18
tgm4883_laptopwhich means my versioning is incorrect17:18
sistpoty|workugh... seems like cron *might* have interfered... and it seems like either the date of my box or of spooky is wrong *g*17:19
RainCTsistpoty|work: what time do you have?17:19
tgm4883_laptopRainCT, ok, i'll change that to our team address17:19
sistpoty|workRainCT: 18:1917:19
* RainCT and the server where irssi is running too17:20
RainCTI'll change it on spooky (it says :22)17:20
sistpoty|workand indeed... cron interfered... I should look better when calling date prior to calling move_uploads: "Fri Aug  8 18:19:58 CEST 2008"17:20
sistpoty|workmust have been murphy biting me there *g*17:20
=== zookoaway is now known as zooko
sistpoty|workanyway, tgm4883_laptop: package is up now17:21
tgm4883_laptopi'm a little fuzzy on the version numbering schema, I thought I followed what lintian was telling me, but it keeps giving me the warning17:22
tgm4883_laptopsistpoty|work, thanks17:22
sistpoty|worknp17:22
tgm4883_laptopfor future uploads, is it going to work automatically or do i need to come in here and ask every time?17:23
RainCTpersia: I don't see why merging might fix anything17:25
RainCTunless it's magic :P17:25
sistpoty|worktgm4883_laptop: it should work automatically. *should* *g*17:25
tgm4883_laptopok, i'll fix up these other parser packages I have and test it out17:26
tgm4883_laptopneed to fix the version thing though first I suppose17:26
* sistpoty|work heads home... cya17:32
persiaRainCT: I've been considering it magic, yes.17:44
warp10NCommander: thanks ;-)17:47
NCommanderwarp10, Welcome to Cruft Busters :-)17:47
NCommanderNow we just need some people to file some bugs17:47
warp10NCommander: indeed. IIRC you set up a wiki page, right?17:48
NCommanderyeah17:48
warp10NCommander: link?17:49
NCommanderGrabbing it17:49
NCommanderwarp10, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CruftBusters17:50
NCommandercomments, criticisms, concerns are welcome17:50
azeemcool, the new Launchpad doesn't let me add comments to bugs17:50
azeem(we're still using sarge at the uni)17:50
warp10NCommander: ah, yeah... /me subscribes to the page17:50
NCommanderI'd like to work on removing older GCCs from the archive17:51
NCommanderProbably a good place to start anyway17:51
NCommanderANd firefox217:51
warp10NCommander: Indeed. What about opening the LP ML for the team?17:53
NCommanderwarp10, I put a request in17:53
warp10NCommander: that would be a good place to discuss these topics17:53
NCommanderIt says "The list will be available in a  few minutes"17:53
NCommanderSo LP must have it almost set up17:53
warp10NCommander: ah, great... the last ML I requested needed manual approval by LP admins17:54
* persia notes that the CC has asked for teams to be created on lists.ubuntu.com instead of lists.launchpad.net when they are for Ubuntu purposes.17:55
jpdsRequests for new Ubuntu mailing lists should be sent to rt@ubuntu.com.17:56
warp10persia: ah, right: good point. I forgot that17:57
NCommanderCC?17:57
RainCTNCommander: community council? :)17:57
persiaNCommander: They who are the ultimate arbiters of all things Ubuntu17:59
* NCommander hides in fear of them17:59
warp10NCommander: irrelevant: resistance is futile!18:00
* RoAkSoAx saludos :)18:00
NCommanderI dunno what I should even email them to ask about the list18:00
persiaNCommander: Just send an email to rt@ with text like "Please activate the $foo list for $purpose".18:01
persiaThat said, I don't think you need a special list for the cruft-busters.18:01
jpdsNCommander: With a link to team page and LP. Etc, etc.18:02
NCommanderwell, if this project becomes at all popular, then I'll do that18:02
persiaNCommander: What do you imagine as a use for the email list?18:02
NCommanderpersia, decision of packages to be removed, and questions Cruft Busters18:03
persiaIf it's coordination, it's probably better to do here, or on ubuntu-motu@ or ubuntu-devel@ if absolutely required (although universe has more cruft than main)18:03
persiaThat's definitely much better on those lists.18:03
NCommanderok, we stay on motu unless people bitch18:03
persia!ohmy18:03
ubottuPlease watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.18:03
persia:p18:03
NCommanderpeople get steamed and act like Debian Developers.18:04
NCommanderHappy now persia ?18:04
=== macd_ is now known as macd
warp10LOL18:04
jpds!lol18:04
ubottuPlease don't use "LOL" and "OMG" and so forth on a regular basis. This is IRC, not IM, and using those lines on their own is not required, and it is rather annoying to the rest of the people in the channel; thanks.18:04
jpds:p18:04
persiaWell, no, but I don't have as easy a time complaining about that.18:04
lagaomg18:04
persiaGrrrr..  Why on earth should one run ./configure during clean!18:05
warp10jpds: argh :P18:05
RainCTwarp10: I understand how you feel :P18:06
warp10RainCT: :D18:06
jpdswarp10: /msg ubottu !prayer18:11
tgm4883_laptopTo upload a change to something I already uploaded to REVU, do I just use the -f flag or is there another way?18:12
persiatgm4883_laptop: Remove the .upload file.18:13
* persia grumbles about libgtk1.2 being part of the recommends stack for devscripts, and wonders if anyone feels like trying to finally kill GTK1.218:14
slytherintgm4883_laptop: -f should work18:14
tgm4883_laptopok, i pushed it.  I'll check it in 5 minutes to see if it worked automatically18:15
slytherinpersia: me, me, gtk1.2 has really lived its life.18:15
warp10jpds: :D I am wondering how many else command there are that I don't know... /me looks for a list18:15
directhexnoo, 1.2 is still needed!18:15
persiaslytherin: You're famously busy right now, but if you think you've time to port the remainders to gtk2+, I shan't complain that much.18:15
directhexiirc vmware-agent, which handles resizing the desktop in linux guests when you resize the vmware window, is linked against 1.218:15
persiadirecthex: For what?  You do know it's incapable of rendering in most locales at this point, don't you?18:16
slytherinpersia: once I am done with java FTBFS. :-D18:16
persiadirecthex: Get a real VM :p18:16
* slytherin still has only 512MB RAM. So no VM.18:16
persiaslytherin: On that note, did you get a chance to update the MoveToUniverse page?18:21
slytherinpersia: no. was too busy. have much free time today with no office tomorrow. So will do now.18:22
persiaslytherin: Excellent.  I've some time blocked in about 17 hours to review it :)18:23
slytherinpersia: of course I have a write a testimonial and a hello planet post before that. :-)18:23
persiaheh18:23
slytherinbut should be done in 2 hours.18:23
slytherinpersia: geser: I wonder why none of you is on Planet Ubuntu.18:47
persiaslytherin: I don't write anything of interest for there.18:48
slytherinpersia: But you have a blog, right?18:49
persiaslytherin: Nope.18:49
slytherinoh18:49
persiaWhen I'm doing well, I put as much as 10Kb a day here, and similar in email.  Blogging just seems redundant at that point.18:49
slytherin:-)18:50
persia(plus nobody wants to read a blog about ways to package and pointless device classes: they would rather have their questions answered.18:51
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== zooko is now known as zookoafk
taconeis there a command to know if a given .deb file have all dependancies satisfied and can be installed ?18:56
persiatacone: dpkg -i18:57
taconepersia: don't that actually installs the deb ?18:57
tacones/don't/doesn't/18:57
persiaAh.  dpkg --no-act -i18:57
taconeoh. thanks :)18:57
persia--simulate also works, if you like typiing more characters, or find it easier to remember18:58
taconenice18:58
slytherintacone: in case yiu have gdebi installed and using gnome, just double click the deb19:55
=== LucidFox is now known as LucidFox_zzzzz
taconeslytherin: thanks, I was looking for a programatic method, anyway :)20:22
sistpotyah... those desktop effects somehow snug into my kde and are right now making me nervous *g*20:34
sebnersistpoty: I'm near to use ohmy! for your k word :P20:35
sistpotyhaha20:35
sistpotysebner: well, anything better out there with which I can stay at my favourity mua (which doesn't manage to sign mail currently however)? *g*20:36
sistpotyfavourite even20:36
sebnersistpoty: mua?20:37
sistpotysebner: mail user agent20:37
sebnersistpoty: I don't use/like evolution :P20:37
sebnerTB ftw"20:37
sebner!20:37
sistpotysebner: hehe, neither do I (it starts with a k *g*)20:37
sebnersistpoty: kevolution? :P20:38
sistpotysebner: yep, just a little bit more lightweight... but I have the feeling that this might change soonish *g*20:39
sebnersistpoty: to TB? very good choice :D20:39
sebnerhuhu YokoZar20:39
sebnerYokoZar: are the staying with stable wine branch?20:39
YokoZarsebner: I'm not certain actually.  Wineconf happens to be in September so I plan on asking around there about the best way forward20:40
sebnerYokoZar: kk :)20:41
sistpotysebner: btw.: still unaddressed bug from me: bug #245591 *eg*20:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 245591 in kdebase "konsole: shortcut for new tab changed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24559120:41
YokoZarsebner: My main concern is no regressions compared with 1.0 for whatever version we use.  Wine's not making another stable release, but maybe someone could make a "semi-stable" release that at least passes that (namely Dan Kegel, Wine 1.0's release manager, who happens to be a big Ubuntu guy :) )20:41
sebnerYokoZar: well, regressions .. bad but new unstable releases may support new apps/games since a lot improvements happened20:42
sebnersistpoty: gnome-terminal does what you want :P20:42
sistpotyhaha20:42
sebnersistpoty: lol! just read your comment xD20:43
slytherinsistpoty: I head claws-mail is good, never tried though.20:43
sistpotyslytherin: but claws-mail is no window-manager, is it? *g*20:43
sebnersistpoty: ehm. question: why ctrl-alt-n? I open a new tab with ctrl+t20:44
slytherinsistpoty: I was replying to your MUA comment20:44
sistpotyslytherin: the point is that I want to stay with it... after so many years of fighting its bugs *g*20:44
slytherin:-)20:44
sebnersistpoty: stockholm syndrom :P20:45
YokoZarsebner: I know, but not having regressions is like a main feature of Ubuntu :)  -- in the past I didn't care too much, but now that we have an actual stable release we're upgrading from expectations are different20:45
slytherinAt office I use Ubuntu like Windows. I use whatever apps are installed by default. :-P .... except the fact that I installed terminator. :-)20:45
sistpotysebner: it always used to be ctrl-alt-n for konsole... my fingers have learned that shortcut (and it's easier to type than ctrl-t, as n is right-hand whereas t is left-hand together with left-hand modifier key)20:45
sebnerYokoZar: True but as we passed LTS ... I want to see intrepid more like edgy :P20:46
sebnersistpoty: makes no sense to me xD20:46
lagayou want intrepid to be more unstable than hardy? ;)20:46
sebnerlaga: intrepid unstable *is* more stable than hardy :P20:47
sistpotysebner: may I blame you user of the "adler-such-system"? :P20:47
ScottKYokoZar: Maybe we should have two packages then.  wine and wine-unstable or some such.20:47
lagahaha20:47
sebnersistpoty: hrhr20:47
sebnerScottK: seems double work to me and not worth it20:47
ScottKWe could use Debian as the basis for wine and let YokoZar go nuts on wine-unstable so not double work.20:48
ScottKProbably a little extra bugfixing, but no worries about regressions.20:48
* sebner say: You little stable fanboys and runs away xD20:49
sebner*says20:49
sistpotyScottK: not too sure about this... this would shift primary attention to wine (as from unstable), right?20:49
sebnersistpoty: version: 4:4.0.83-0ubuntu2 --> may update to current version if it still happenes20:50
sistpotyScottK: maybe the same idea but have wine-stable and wine?20:50
ScottKMaybe.20:50
ScottKGenerally I think you want people who don't now much to install the stable one, so I like my approach better, but either way.20:50
sistpoty*shrug*20:51
YokoZarScottK: At this point our Wine package for 1.0 is superior to the Debian one for other reasons20:51
ScottKOK.20:51
sistpotysebner: no idea... I've configured my shortcut the way I like it, and it works now *g*20:51
ScottKJust trying to maximize benifit and minimize pain.20:51
sebnersistpoty: then be happy with it :P20:53
sebnerhuhu norsetto20:53
norsettohi sebner20:53
sistpotysebner: btw.: I still haven't seen a motu-application from you... gogogo ;)21:00
sebnerhrhr21:01
sebnersistpoty: ask norsetto :P21:01
sistpotysebner: I doubt norsetto will fill in the application for you :P21:02
sebnersistpoty: but I think in 1-2 months so it doesn't make sense before release so end october I think21:02
sistpotysebner: don't be shy. apply now ;)21:04
sebnersistpoty: no no. first some other things to do ;)21:04
sistpotysuperm1: FYI I'm starting merging nvidia-settings now21:05
superm1sistpoty, okay sounds good.  i wasn't going to get to it again until sundayish so that should be fine21:05
sistpotykk21:06
sistpotysuperm1: just OOI, you specified lp bugs with LP: #bugno,bugno,bugno... does that work? (as vim doesn't seem to highlight it correctly)21:07
crimsunyes, it does.21:07
superm1sistpoty, it should work21:07
crimsunoh wait, no21:08
crimsunyou need LP: #foo, #bar, #baz21:08
crimsunthe leading hash is necessary21:08
sistpotycrimsun: hm... OTOH bug #195241 seems to prove that it at least did work in the past21:08
ubottusistpoty: Bug 195241 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/195241 is private21:08
crimsunah, it's \s*21:13
crimsun(?:,\s*\#\d+)*21:14
crimsunbut that's just for generating the source package21:15
crimsun(and is that private due to the stack trace?)21:16
sistpoty(probably more due to coredump, but I guess so)21:17
slytherinwow, hamster-applet is an approved module of next GNOMErelease.21:23
Laneyember: Hey, did you forward your disable update notification patch for Wordpress to Debian?21:26
Laney(just got annoyed by it on my Debian server)21:27
alex-weej_http://alex-weej.blogspot.com/2008/08/sucata-run-2008.html21:30
alex-weej_http://alex-weej.blogspot.com/2008/08/sucata-run-2008.html21:31
laganice car. you bought it because of the head unit, right?21:33
lagaalex-weej_: so the goal of the whole race is to raise 1000 pounds?21:36
alex-weej_laga: just our team haha21:36
alex-weej_there are about 100 teams21:36
alex-weej_btw sorry for double post, i thought /amsg was only network-wide21:36
alex-weej_i did it once here and then again on gimpnet :S21:36
alex-weej_i am now getting loads of abuse21:36
alex-weej_way to shoot myself in the foot21:37
alex-weej_and yes, the head unit is pretty awesome haha21:37
alex-weej_dog saliva less so21:37
alex-weej_and it's not a race, we will die if it's a race!21:37
lagaalex-weej_: best of luck. looks like an awesome event21:39
alex-weej_cheers :D21:39
alex-weej_we are 3% of the way lol21:39
lagaalthough 1000 pounds isn't that much compared to the amount of money spent on cars and gas ;)21:39
alex-weej_before anyone else grills me for spam, sorry. "/amsg" works for all networks at once in X-Chat, CAUTION!21:40
sistpotydid I grumble about ubuntu breaking reportbug yet?22:06
sebnersistpoty: nope22:06
sistpoty*grml* about ubuntu breaking reportbug *g*22:06
sistpotyaha, the world is small, so henning (whom I met once and smoked some pot^W cigarettes with) reported a bug about ubuntu's reportbug as well *g*22:09
LaneyLuckily reportbug -B debian still works22:10
sebnersistpoty: a bug about the bugreporting tool? doesn't this break *everything*? ^^22:11
sistpotyLaney: nope, it doesn't... it relays via fiordland even if told otherwise :(22:12
sistpotysebner: hehe, the universe will explode now *g*22:12
sebnersistpoty: tick tick tick22:12
Laneysistpoty: Oh, I think I edited the smtp server in reportbug.conf22:12
sebnerBUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm22:12
NCommanderdoes anyone know if the .changes files on things uploaded to either Ubuntu or Debian are saved22:19
sistpotyNCommander: actually these are published on the changes-lists22:19
NCommanderOr given a package, and its dsc, a quick way to regenerate the .changes file without rebuilding every source package?22:19
* NCommander was hoping for something he could wget ...22:19
sistpotyNCommander: the changes-lists are public, so you can wget these22:20
sistpotyNCommander: e.g. https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/intrepid-changes22:20
NCommanderI need to generate .changes for every source package and a few thousand binary packages for importation into dak22:20
NCommanderI was hoping for a format that would be easier to parse ;-)22:21
sistpotyNCommander: maybe dpkg-genchanges might also be s.th. what you're looking for?22:21
jpdsNCommander: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/irssi-plugin-otr/0.2-122:21
jpdsNCommander: There's a "View changesfile" link to the .changes22:22
sistpotyjpds: an now for a ppa :P22:22
NCommanderThat's a start22:22
NCommanderDo you know if something like that exists for Debian?22:22
jpdssistpoty: https://edge.launchpad.net/~jpds/+archive22:22
jpds"(changesfile)"22:22
NCommandersistpoty, dpkg-genchanges requires you to rebuild the source package22:23
sistpotyjpds: (phew) no changes file public there :)22:23
slytherinpersia: added some packages for evaluation to MoveToUniverse page.22:23
NCommandervery painful when your dealing with the entire Debian archive22:23
sistpotyNCommander: for debian, there is a list as well, but I've never managed to recall the list url22:23
jpdssistpoty: Actually.. it is.22:24
sistpotyjpds: but only for your own ppa hopefully?22:24
sistpotyjpds: otherwise I'd subscribe you to bug #15930422:24
ubottusistpoty: Bug 159304 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/159304 is private22:24
jpdssistpoty: Ah, good point.22:25
sistpotyjpds: oh my, I just found your changes file by guessing :(22:27
sistpoty(signed even)22:27
jpdsReally should chmod 0600 like REVU.22:28
NCommanderwhy aren't changes files that publically accessible? (it seems they are never pubically shown anywhere)22:29
jpdsNCommander: Because if it has not been uploaded to Ubuntu/Debian, someone can grab the source package and upload it themselves.22:30
NCommanderI meant more like files that have bene uploaded22:31
sistpotyNCommander: .changes files are basically tickets22:31
sistpotyNCommander: they are only meant to grant access for *one* upload22:31
sistpotyNCommander: after that the version is in the archive, and no other upload with the same .changes file is valid (aka the ticked has expired)22:32
NCommanderyeah22:32
NCommanderIts just anonying because dak has no mechanism it seems to import without each file having a changes22:32
NCommanderYou can easily see how that's going to get anonying real quick22:32
sistpotyNCommander: actually I doubt that you'll need to rebuild a package to generate a .changes file22:33
sistpoty(at leat an unsigned one)22:33
NCommanderThe .dsc and the changes aren't that different22:33
NCommanderI can probably cook a utility to do the changes22:33
sistpotyNCommander: from an archive POV the .dsc is a description of the (source) package22:34
NCommanderBut there is a depricated "import-archive" dak command that can. in theory, do what I want22:34
sistpotyNCommander: while the .changes file is only a "ticket"22:34
NCommanderI meant the contents are similar22:34
NCommanderIts only a few changed fields between the two22:34
sistpotyNCommander: not really... the .dsc describes parts of the source package... the .changes parts of the *upload*22:35
sistpotyNCommander: it's quite different if you add binary packages to it22:35
sistpoty(to the upload)22:35
NCommanderI just need to import source packages ATM22:35
NCommanderWell, this archive importer might do what I need it to22:35
NCommanderI still will need to build a source package builder to roll any new source packages22:37
NCommanderI need some regex help23:16
NCommanderIf I got the name the full name of the dsc file, how can I determine the orig package file23:16
NCommanderi.e hello_2.2-2.dsc to hello_2.2.orig.tar.gz23:16
RainCTNCommander: Python?23:27
sistpotygn8 everyone23:51
=== mcasadevall_ is now known as NCommander

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!