| === HardyOne is now known as IdleOne | ||
| Wellark | asac: could you please direct that someone to channel #mbca | 05:51 |
|---|---|---|
| XioNoX | hi! | 09:16 |
| * gnomefreak wants to be able to type :( i type way too slow now | 09:25 | |
| gnomefreak | did Mozilla drop chatzilla or just made it its own package? | 10:55 |
| gnomefreak | Mozilla made package "Snow" that is a chat client/messaging client | 10:56 |
| gnomefreak | seems its an extension | 10:56 |
| asac | gnomefreak: yes: snowl | 10:57 |
| asac | its a messaging extension for browser | 10:57 |
| asac | Jazzva: ^^ | 10:57 |
| asac | ;) | 10:57 |
| asac | package! | 10:57 |
| asac | ;) | 10:57 |
| gnomefreak | its experimental | 10:57 |
| gnomefreak | but looks pretty good | 10:58 |
| asac | gnomefreak: yep | 11:06 |
| asac | gnomefreak: is there an official "preview" version out there somewhere? | 11:06 |
| gnomefreak | yes let me get you site | 11:07 |
| gnomefreak | asac: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-snowl/ | 11:07 |
| gnomefreak | doesnt look like it does IRC | 11:08 |
| gnomefreak | asac: Warning: the initial prototype is a primitive implementation with many bugs, and subsequent versions will include changes that break functionality and delete all your messages, making you start over from scratch. | 11:10 |
| gnomefreak | brb smoke | 11:10 |
| asac | yeah | 11:11 |
| asac | thought so | 11:11 |
| gnomefreak | tar doesnt use -z or its not working | 11:26 |
| gnomefreak | its still in --help | 11:26 |
| gnomefreak | ah it cant be at the end of - like xfzv | 11:27 |
| gnomefreak | gnash keeps craashing | 11:32 |
| asac | gnomefreak: intrepid? | 11:55 |
| asac | which version? | 11:55 |
| gnomefreak | asac: intrepid 0.8.2-0ubuntu3 | 12:03 |
| gnomefreak | im gonna go finish eating | 12:03 |
| Jazzva | asac, snowl is the name? | 12:36 |
| gnomefreak | yes | 12:37 |
| Jazzva | gnomefreak, have you seen the report for july? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Extensions/ReportJuly08 | 12:37 |
| gnomefreak | Jazzva: i wouldnt start on it at this time | 12:37 |
| Jazzva | Feel free to improve it | 12:37 |
| gnomefreak | yes i havent gotten around to it since i hurt my wrist somehing awful | 12:37 |
| gnomefreak | i think i fixedd typo | 12:37 |
| Jazzva | ouch :(... sorry to hear that | 12:37 |
| Jazzva | when will your wrist get better? | 12:38 |
| gnomefreak | Jazzva: its ok hurts and looking at 10 weeks in this damn splint | 12:38 |
| gnomefreak | one dr said 2 weeks but my neorologist said 10 | 12:38 |
| Jazzva | damn :( | 12:38 |
| gnomefreak | its called radial nerve palsey | 12:39 |
| Jazzva | mhm... i'll see at the wiki, if it has anything on it | 12:40 |
| gnomefreak | ok ill be back i got to try to shower so i can make it to my meeting with physical theropey | 12:40 |
| Jazzva | ok... good luck | 12:40 |
| gnomefreak | Jazzva: sevearl months is what i saw but i dont know | 12:40 |
| gnomefreak | ok later guys | 12:40 |
| Jazzva | see you later | 12:41 |
| gandi | asac: ping | 13:17 |
| asac | gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35503/ | 13:37 |
| asac | gandi: tell me whats unclear, so i can improve before submitting to bugzilla | 13:39 |
| gandi | ok | 13:39 |
| Jazzva | asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35505/ | 13:41 |
| Jazzva | I got those errors | 13:41 |
| asac | Jazzva: whats at those lines? | 13:42 |
| asac | e.g. lists.js 37 | 13:42 |
| asac | and service.js:46 | 13:42 |
| gandi | asac: the last part sounds to me like if you want the notification to appear everytime a user opens a website with a plugin that has alternatives | 13:42 |
| Jazzva | asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35507/ for list.js | 13:43 |
| Jazzva | the first line in paste is line 37 | 13:43 |
| Jazzva | asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35508/ | 13:44 |
| Jazzva | line 46 is "Cu.import("resource://snowl/modules/datastore.js");" | 13:44 |
| asac | Jazzva: where are those? | 13:45 |
| asac | are those files included in xpi? | 13:45 |
| Jazzva | yep | 13:45 |
| Jazzva | datastore.js is in modules/ | 13:45 |
| Jazzva | I can read it from fx by opening that uri | 13:46 |
| Jazzva | also, I'm able to open service.js | 13:47 |
| asac | Jazzva: does the same happen when you install the .xpi? | 13:49 |
| asac | e.g. manually in your profile? | 13:49 |
| Jazzva | let's see.. | 13:49 |
| asac | gandi: in the end thats true. i am not sure where to display it though | 13:49 |
| asac | it could be a icon in the status bar (bottom) | 13:49 |
| asac | or something floating on top, which the user can turn off | 13:50 |
| asac | i think having a icon on the bottom would be the least intrusive thing. | 13:50 |
| gandi | asac: you want to attack a user with information about gnash EVERY TIME he visits a website with flash??? | 13:51 |
| gandi | even when he has flash already installed? | 13:51 |
| asac | gnomefreak: err. i dont want to attach him ;) | 13:51 |
| gandi | sounds extremely offensive against the user to me | 13:51 |
| asac | gandi: | 13:51 |
| asac | gandi: well. i think you are right. thats why i say, display a small icon in the bottom (unintrusive) | 13:51 |
| gandi | still | 13:51 |
| gandi | you want to change the UI | 13:51 |
| gandi | to let the user know that he can change the plugin... | 13:52 |
| asac | if the user clicks on it, the plugins management opens for the mime-types on that site | 13:52 |
| gandi | I can hardly imagine this being anything but disturbing | 13:52 |
| gandi | users open several hundred websites daily | 13:52 |
| gandi | 99% of them has flash | 13:52 |
| asac | gandi: its a "manage" plugins button | 13:52 |
| asac | gandi: when there is no alternative, the user doesnt get that suggestion | 13:52 |
| asac | so on windows nothing changes ;) | 13:52 |
| gandi | I cannot imagine a use in showing a user several hundred times per day that we have an alternative for him | 13:52 |
| gandi | asac: but on linux you want to give user additional "information" all the time | 13:53 |
| asac | gandi: its a "manage plugins on this site" button in the button | 13:53 |
| gandi | what's the reason? | 13:53 |
| asac | s/in the button/on the bottom status bar/ | 13:54 |
| Jazzva | asac, yes... | 13:54 |
| Jazzva | at least we have the packaging :) | 13:54 |
| gandi | I must say I don't understand that element and I will have hard time to defend it. I believe UI should be clean and sane and not display even a single bit of info more than absolutely needed | 13:54 |
| gandi | and I don't think that info about alternatives for plugins is very useful | 13:54 |
| gandi | if he can view the website, he's done | 13:54 |
| gandi | ok, let's skip that part | 13:54 |
| gandi | I would like to get a comparsion of mconnors idea with yours | 13:55 |
| asac | gandi: fair enough. | 13:55 |
| gandi | especially in the part of what's better in yours | 13:55 |
| gandi | to lobby among others | 13:55 |
| asac | gandi: he doesnt want to improve plugins management | 13:55 |
| gandi | it seems he want - he said he wants to replace pfs with a website | 13:55 |
| gandi | that will display a list of choices for given mimetype | 13:55 |
| gandi | right? | 13:55 |
| asac | gandi: yes. but managing plugins isnt really possible there. | 13:56 |
| asac | e.g. like what i described in plugins management | 13:56 |
| asac | select installed alternatives or trigger search for additional alternatives for each mime-type | 13:56 |
| gandi | can you write it in addition to that text pls? | 13:57 |
| asac | gandi: there is no text available from mconnor outlining his idea | 13:57 |
| asac | so i cannot refer to anything | 13:57 |
| gandi | right | 13:58 |
| gandi | ok | 13:58 |
| asac | the difference is: install plugins from website | 13:58 |
| gandi | then post yours | 13:58 |
| asac | or mange them in UI | 13:58 |
| gandi | and I'll ask mconnor for comment | 13:58 |
| asac | the rest is religion | 13:58 |
| gandi | right | 13:58 |
| asac | imo everyone should see that managing plugins like described there is a better user-experience | 13:58 |
| gandi | the important piece of your idea is how it improves the life of linux vendors | 13:58 |
| gandi | because I want to lobby it among linux vendors ;) | 13:58 |
| asac | gandi: no. it also improves life for windows users. as we get a "per-mime-type" plugins management | 13:59 |
| gandi | yea, but I will not lobby it among windows vendors ;p | 13:59 |
| asac | hehe | 13:59 |
| asac | sure | 13:59 |
| gandi | microsoft is out of scope ;) | 13:59 |
| gandi | ok, so please, post it in the bug | 13:59 |
| gandi | and I'll do the first round of lobbying | 13:59 |
| asac | ok. I will remove the last paragraph | 13:59 |
| jcastro | asac: are you handling webkit for intrepid or is that someone else? | 14:00 |
| gandi | you don't have to. I just think that the last proposition is very much against the usability | 14:00 |
| asac | jcastro: Jazzva was doing it. though it seb's point of view was a bit unclear | 14:00 |
| jcastro | asac: Oops, I meant to ask you as in "mozilla-team" | 14:01 |
| asac | gandi: well. i dont want to raise "debatable things" to give others an attach vector | 14:01 |
| gandi | you expose very technical information at the very exposed position very often for a task that will be useful for minority once per their installation phase | 14:01 |
| gandi | right | 14:01 |
| Jazzva | asac, jcastro: webkit has been approved by pitti afaik | 14:03 |
| jcastro | Jazzva: I was just trying to find out who packaged it, and to ask that person if they're doing the pywebkit bindings as well | 14:03 |
| jcastro | so I guess that's you? :) | 14:03 |
| Jazzva | and I think someone told me that he will do epiphany-webkit... | 14:03 |
| Jazzva | jcastro, nope, wasn't me :) | 14:04 |
| jcastro | k, thanks, I'll ask pitti next time I see him | 14:04 |
| Jazzva | asac and I just prepared the MIR for webkit | 14:04 |
| fta | i thought mike from debian was doing that | 14:04 |
| asac | fta: he does that in debian. but we need to take care on our own here | 14:04 |
| asac | fta: for instance debian is stuck with old gnome now | 14:05 |
| asac | and they are frozen ;) | 14:05 |
| asac | so we have to move ahead | 14:05 |
| asac | 1) webkit + 2) gnome ;) | 14:05 |
| jcastro | reason I ask is that conduit just asked pywebkit for a release tarball so he can do some stuff wwith it during this cycle | 14:05 |
| asac | jcastro: huats is doing that | 14:05 |
| jcastro | and I thought it'd be nice to have the bindings already in for intrepid | 14:06 |
| asac | he just asked me today if i would review his package for the python bindings as soon as he has finished that package | 14:06 |
| jcastro | asac: thanks | 14:06 |
| asac | i said: "fine". | 14:06 |
| jcastro | oh, excellent, thanks | 14:06 |
| asac | jcastro: i guess he will have a package available in the next days | 14:06 |
| asac | not sure for alpha-4 though | 14:06 |
| asac | gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35513/ | 14:07 |
| jcastro | asac: I don't care so much for the alpha, "Eventually in intrepid" is good enough for me. :) | 14:07 |
| asac | jcastro: then rest still ;) ... apparently there will be python bindings | 14:08 |
| gandi | asac: I miss info about that you will be offered combined channel (??) from PFS data and data from vendor package system | 14:08 |
| fta | ... but don't hold your breath | 14:08 |
| gandi | and how it's going to support installation of plugins as packages? | 14:09 |
| asac | gandi: thats not a user-experience thing. IMO, that should be discussed at the "implementation" level | 14:09 |
| gandi | plus in case of plugins management, looking at Preferences->Application tab does not help me understand the UI for comboboxes I think | 14:09 |
| gandi | asac: but isn't it crucial for this? | 14:09 |
| gandi | also I disagree | 14:09 |
| gandi | it's not about UI for Firefox | 14:09 |
| gandi | but it's about user experience | 14:10 |
| gandi | for linux users | 14:10 |
| asac | ok | 14:10 |
| asac | what is unclear about the comboboxes? | 14:10 |
| gandi | who'll choose the plugin and see package manager window installing the pacakge right? | 14:10 |
| gandi | asac: not sure. Maybe notify that you just want the second column to be made of combo boxes (or drop-down lists?) to switch plugin player? | 14:11 |
| asac | gandi: i just want it to be the same as its in application. just that the right-hand thing has the options i outlined in the text | 14:12 |
| asac | so better call it "drop-down list" | 14:12 |
| asac | i open to any change that makes this more clear for mozillas. I just dont want to paint a mock-up ;) | 14:13 |
| asac | as its already there | 14:13 |
| gandi | ok | 14:13 |
| asac | gandi: so how to change the text (suggestions welcome) | 14:13 |
| gandi | so I would add a section describing the big change in the source of packages | 14:13 |
| gandi | that would combine the data (or replace it?) between pfs and package management system | 14:13 |
| gandi | so that vendor can plug their plugin package system | 14:14 |
| gandi | and allow user to instal plugins as packages | 14:14 |
| asac | gandi: right | 14:14 |
| gandi | that would raise consistency | 14:14 |
| gandi | and allow for better OS management | 14:14 |
| gandi | question is what happens when user has no admin rights? | 14:14 |
| asac | gandi: in the end the user would get an authentication box to escalate his privileges | 14:24 |
| asac | gandi: when he hits install | 14:24 |
| asac | gandi: if the user is in the admin group he can use his own credentials. otherwise he needs to know the credentials of an admin user | 14:24 |
| asac | gandi: thats something that is done by distro tools and shouldnt matter much for the firefox UI imo | 14:25 |
| gandi | and if he doesn't he will not be able to install the plugin or will he fallback to default method? | 14:25 |
| asac | gandi: that depends on the distro backend imo. | 14:25 |
| gandi | ok | 14:25 |
| asac | gandi: the distro backend could provide an option to install to profile | 14:26 |
| asac | gandi: do you run ubuntu? | 14:26 |
| asac | i could show you how other dialog do that | 14:26 |
| gandi | not at the very moment | 14:26 |
| gandi | I have ubuntu on my machine | 14:27 |
| gandi | wait | 14:27 |
| gandi | I have 8.10 in virtualbox | 14:27 |
| asac | gandi: good. | 14:27 |
| asac | open the "user administration" thing | 14:27 |
| gandi | let me start it | 14:27 |
| asac | until you "unlock", the operations that require admin rights stay disabled | 14:27 |
| asac | we could place a similar button in the install dialog | 14:28 |
| gandi | yea I know | 14:28 |
| asac | so results that only have a "global" install method, dont get displayed or are greyed out until you unlocked | 14:28 |
| gandi | I do care if mconnors approach has any better solution for users without admin privileges | 14:28 |
| asac | better than the "unlock" approach? most likely not | 14:28 |
| gandi | go to macromedia.com website, download zip package and install it into your profile? | 14:29 |
| asac | gandi: how does his approach know what to suggest to the user? | 14:30 |
| asac | if he just displays two ways: "install globally" + "install to profile" we can certainly do that as well | 14:31 |
| gandi | yea, I don't know | 14:32 |
| gandi | I'm trying to think ahead | 14:32 |
| asac | sure. i think his solution is either: "vendor installer has to be smart" ... or: "user has to decide on its own" | 14:33 |
| asac | i think our approach can at least to the same | 14:33 |
| asac | for instance: apturl could auto-fallback and install plugin in profile if user cannot/does not want to unlock | 14:33 |
| asac | - that would be equivalent to "vendor installer has to be smart" | 14:34 |
| asac | or: we provide a "Global Install ..." button + a "Profile Install ..." button | 14:35 |
| asac | which would be equivalent to the "user has to decide approach" | 14:35 |
| gandi | can we just fall back to this in case global install failes? | 14:35 |
| asac | we could improve that by disabling "Global Install ..." until the user properly "Unlocks" | 14:35 |
| asac | gandi: yes. as long as the "install method" support "profile install ..." we can fallback | 14:36 |
| asac | gandi: i would like to implement that for .debs | 14:36 |
| asac | so the debian/ubuntu backend would have it | 14:37 |
| gandi | cool | 14:37 |
| gandi | can you write it down | 14:37 |
| gandi | as a section in your design doc | 14:37 |
| gandi | and attach to the bug | 14:37 |
| gandi | ? | 14:37 |
| gandi | then I'll ask mconnor for feedback | 14:38 |
| gandi | and reed | 14:38 |
| XioNoX | and about updates ? | 14:38 |
| gandi | and others | 14:38 |
| XioNoX | if the plugin is installed system wide, and an update is aviable, the user will install it in his profile, no ? | 14:39 |
| XioNoX | so there will be differents versions of the same plugins, it cant be conflict sources ? | 14:40 |
| asac | XioNoX: ? if the user installs plugin system wide through apt he will be automatically upgraded through the ubuntu packaging system | 14:40 |
| XioNoX | ok, but if there are many users who use the PC, and only 1 who have admin roghts | 14:41 |
| XioNoX | err rights | 14:41 |
| asac | well. i dont see a way to prevent users from installing their own plugin | 14:42 |
| XioNoX | something like disabling the updates of system wide installed plugin for non admin users | 14:43 |
| XioNoX | like you do for firefox | 14:44 |
| asac | XioNoX: thats a separate feature i think | 14:44 |
| asac | we already have system wide plugins | 14:44 |
| asac | in firefox | 14:44 |
| asac | so if that feature doesnt exist yet, its a separate enhancement imo | 14:45 |
| XioNoX | ok | 14:45 |
| asac | gandi: i really dont think we should try to address all arguments in advance. better follow up once there is concrete critizism | 14:51 |
| gandi | yes, but if you wont add this section noone will know this adventage of this proposal :) | 14:52 |
| asac | gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35532/ | 15:07 |
| asac | gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/ <-- sorry, this is the one | 15:10 |
| gandi | great | 15:11 |
| gandi | ! | 15:11 |
| gandi | go-ahead from me | 15:11 |
| asac | gandi: there are lots of fine things that can be improved, but lets start discussion first. | 15:12 |
| asac | [reed]: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/ | 15:12 |
| gandi | yea | 15:12 |
| asac | can you look at that and if you have some initial suggestsions let me know | 15:12 |
| asac | if you sign that off I will post it to bug | 15:12 |
| asac | gandi: if [reed] doesnt give input today, I will jsut go ahead | 15:13 |
| asac | gandi: actually i have a great idea how to manage plugins for "current site" | 15:13 |
| asac | gandi: instead of changing UI of main window we could add a check-box in the "Manage Plugins" tab, that reads "filter by content used on current site" | 15:14 |
| asac | so if the user wants to look for alternatives of the currently used mime-type he would go to "plugins" tab and click that checkbox | 15:15 |
| asac | then would just have three entries there, for which he can select alternatives | 15:15 |
| asac | but well. thats fine tuning imo | 15:15 |
| asac | last version: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35546/ | 15:25 |
| asac | (just for me so i have the link ;)) | 15:25 |
| [reed] | asac: reading | 16:14 |
| [reed] | asac: looks pretty good | 16:15 |
| [reed] | asac: has beltzner / madhava / Boriss / faaborg checked it out? | 16:15 |
| asac | [reed]: no. i wanted you to prove read it and will now submit it to the bug | 16:18 |
| asac | mozilla bug 449188 | 16:18 |
| asac | then we can start discussing this | 16:18 |
| ubottu | Mozilla bug 449188 in Plugin Finder Service "improve plugin finder service" [Normal,Assigned] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449188 | 16:18 |
| asac | ok submitted | 16:22 |
| asac | gandi: ^^ | 16:22 |
| [reed] | asac: it has some spelling/grammar mistakes, but it's readable, nonetheless | 16:22 |
| asac | too bad ;) | 16:22 |
| [reed] | so, it's fine | 16:22 |
| asac | err, too late :-D | 16:22 |
| [reed] | yeah, sorry... was fixing the netsplit on moznet | 16:22 |
| gandi | asac: cool | 16:23 |
| gandi | asac: thanks! | 16:23 |
| asac | *sigh* launchpad is against at its very slowest :( | 16:27 |
| bfiller_ | asac: how do I turn off bookmarks toolbar by default? Looks like it's stored in localstore.rdf in users profile | 16:42 |
| asac | slangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;) | 16:43 |
| asac | ups | 16:43 |
| bfiller_ | asac: looking at source I see /mozilla/browser/locales/en-US/profile/localstore.rdf but it's empty for the most part. Do I add it in there and rebuild? | 16:43 |
| gandi | [reed]: caillion? | 16:45 |
| gandi | [reed]: other vendors to CC to that bug? | 16:46 |
| [reed] | yeah | 16:46 |
| [reed] | my Firefox just crashed, though | 16:46 |
| gandi | impossible | 16:46 |
| gandi | never happened to me | 16:46 |
| asac | gandi: blizzard, caillon | 16:50 |
| sebner | asac: nm 0.7 is just crazy xD | 16:51 |
| asac | sebner: like in "awesome" or "incomprehensible" ? | 16:53 |
| sebner | asac: both xD | 16:54 |
| Jazzva | off... seems it's gonna be a big storm... | 17:06 |
| Jazzva | see you later | 17:06 |
| bfiller_ | asac: figured it out, you need to modify browser.xul and add "collapsed=true" to the PersonalToolbar section | 17:41 |
| asac | bfiller_: cant you use a .css file that is shipped in the extension? | 17:41 |
| asac | will the toolbar also disappear from View ? | 17:42 |
| bfiller_ | asac: i haven't tried going the .css route, sound like that would be easier (wouldn't have to rebuild ff) | 17:42 |
| bfiller_ | asac: toolbar still in View menu, just unchecked by default | 17:43 |
| armin76 | bumb | 17:44 |
| armin76 | bumb asac! | 17:44 |
| asac | bfiller_: does the element in browser have collapsed=false in the original .xul? | 17:45 |
| bfiller_ | asac: no, it doesn't have the attribute at all | 17:45 |
| asac | bfiller_: otherwise i'd suggest to try to overlay that element from the extension | 17:45 |
| asac | look http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XUL_Tutorial:Overlays | 17:45 |
| asac | bfiller_: look for "Let's change the help menu in this manner. " | 17:46 |
| asac | which is the example that _adds_ attributes through an overlay | 17:46 |
| bfiller_ | asac: i'll take a look, thanks | 17:46 |
| asac | bfiller_: if that element doesnt have an id=... it might be a bit difficult to match it in a unique fashion | 17:47 |
| asac | if it has an id=... it should work | 17:47 |
| asac | easily | 17:47 |
| bfiller_ | asac: it does have an id <toolbar id="PersonalToolbar"...> | 17:48 |
| asac | bfiller_: should work then | 17:49 |
| bfiller_ | asac: cool | 17:50 |
| asac | bfiller_: in worst case you can do removeelement="true" and just add the line like you want in that overlay ;) | 17:50 |
| asac | bfiller_: is all on that tutorial page | 17:50 |
| asac | if you have probs just ask ... ill be out for a while now though. | 17:52 |
| asac | ;) | 17:52 |
| asac | dinner and shopping and so on | 17:52 |
| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| jcastro | asac: awake? | 20:21 |
| fta | [18:52] <asac> dinner and shopping and so on | 20:25 |
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