[05:51] <Wellark> asac: could you please direct that someone to channel #mbca
[09:16] <XioNoX> hi!
[09:25]  * gnomefreak wants to be able to type :( i type way too slow now
[10:55] <gnomefreak> did Mozilla drop chatzilla or just made it its own package?
[10:56] <gnomefreak> Mozilla made package "Snow" that is a chat client/messaging client
[10:56] <gnomefreak> seems its an extension
[10:57] <asac> gnomefreak: yes: snowl
[10:57] <asac> its a messaging extension for browser
[10:57] <asac> Jazzva: ^^
[10:57] <asac> ;)
[10:57] <asac> package!
[10:57] <asac> ;)
[10:57] <gnomefreak> its experimental
[10:58] <gnomefreak> but looks pretty good
[11:06] <asac> gnomefreak: yep
[11:06] <asac> gnomefreak: is there an official "preview" version out there somewhere?
[11:07] <gnomefreak> yes let me get you site
[11:07] <gnomefreak> asac: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-snowl/
[11:08] <gnomefreak> doesnt look like it does IRC
[11:10] <gnomefreak> asac: Warning: the initial prototype is a primitive implementation with many bugs, and subsequent versions will include changes that break functionality and delete all your messages, making you start over from scratch.
[11:10] <gnomefreak> brb smoke
[11:11] <asac> yeah
[11:11] <asac> thought so
[11:26] <gnomefreak> tar doesnt use -z or its not working
[11:26] <gnomefreak> its still in --help
[11:27] <gnomefreak> ah it cant be at the end of -  like xfzv
[11:32] <gnomefreak> gnash keeps craashing
[11:55] <asac> gnomefreak: intrepid?
[11:55] <asac> which version?
[12:03] <gnomefreak> asac: intrepid 0.8.2-0ubuntu3
[12:03] <gnomefreak> im gonna go finish eating
[12:36] <Jazzva> asac, snowl is the name?
[12:37] <gnomefreak> yes
[12:37] <Jazzva> gnomefreak, have you seen the report for july? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Extensions/ReportJuly08
[12:37] <gnomefreak> Jazzva: i wouldnt start on it at this time
[12:37] <Jazzva> Feel free to improve it
[12:37] <gnomefreak> yes i havent gotten around to it since i hurt my wrist somehing awful
[12:37] <gnomefreak> i think i fixedd typo
[12:37] <Jazzva> ouch :(... sorry to hear that
[12:38] <Jazzva> when will your wrist get better?
[12:38] <gnomefreak> Jazzva: its ok hurts and looking at 10 weeks in this damn splint
[12:38] <gnomefreak> one dr said 2 weeks but my neorologist said 10
[12:38] <Jazzva> damn :(
[12:39] <gnomefreak> its called radial nerve palsey
[12:40] <Jazzva> mhm... i'll see at the wiki, if it has anything on it
[12:40] <gnomefreak> ok ill be back i got to try to shower so i can make it to my meeting with physical theropey
[12:40] <Jazzva> ok... good luck
[12:40] <gnomefreak> Jazzva: sevearl months is what i saw but i dont know
[12:40] <gnomefreak> ok later guys
[12:41] <Jazzva> see you later
[13:17] <gandi> asac: ping
[13:37] <asac> gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35503/
[13:39] <asac> gandi: tell me whats unclear, so i can improve before submitting to bugzilla
[13:39] <gandi> ok
[13:41] <Jazzva> asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35505/
[13:41] <Jazzva> I got those errors
[13:42] <asac> Jazzva: whats at those lines?
[13:42] <asac> e.g. lists.js 37
[13:42] <asac> and service.js:46
[13:42] <gandi> asac: the last part sounds to me like if you want the notification to appear everytime a user opens a website with a plugin that has alternatives
[13:43] <Jazzva> asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35507/ for list.js
[13:43] <Jazzva> the first line in paste is line 37
[13:44] <Jazzva> asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35508/
[13:44] <Jazzva> line 46 is "Cu.import("resource://snowl/modules/datastore.js");"
[13:45] <asac> Jazzva: where are those?
[13:45] <asac> are those files included in xpi?
[13:45] <Jazzva> yep
[13:45] <Jazzva> datastore.js is in modules/
[13:46] <Jazzva> I can read it from fx by opening that uri
[13:47] <Jazzva> also, I'm able to open service.js
[13:49] <asac> Jazzva: does the same happen when you install the .xpi?
[13:49] <asac> e.g. manually in your profile?
[13:49] <Jazzva> let's see..
[13:49] <asac> gandi: in the end thats true. i am not sure where to display it though
[13:49] <asac> it could be a icon in the status bar (bottom)
[13:50] <asac> or something floating on top, which the user can turn off
[13:50] <asac> i think having a icon on the bottom would be the least intrusive thing.
[13:51] <gandi> asac: you want to attack a user with information about gnash EVERY TIME he visits a website with flash???
[13:51] <gandi> even when he has flash already installed?
[13:51] <asac> gnomefreak: err. i dont want to attach him ;)
[13:51] <gandi> sounds extremely offensive against the user to me
[13:51] <asac> gandi:
[13:51] <asac> gandi: well. i think you are right. thats why i say, display a small icon in the bottom (unintrusive)
[13:51] <gandi> still
[13:51] <gandi> you want to change the UI
[13:52] <gandi> to let the user know that he can change the plugin...
[13:52] <asac> if the user clicks on it, the plugins management opens for the mime-types on that site
[13:52] <gandi> I can hardly imagine this being anything but disturbing
[13:52] <gandi> users open several hundred websites daily
[13:52] <gandi> 99% of them has flash
[13:52] <asac> gandi: its a "manage" plugins button
[13:52] <asac> gandi: when there is no alternative, the user doesnt get that suggestion
[13:52] <asac> so on windows nothing changes ;)
[13:52] <gandi> I cannot imagine a use in showing a user several hundred times per day that we have an alternative for him
[13:53] <gandi> asac: but on linux you want to give user additional "information" all the time
[13:53] <asac> gandi: its a "manage plugins on this site" button in the button
[13:53] <gandi> what's the reason?
[13:54] <asac> s/in the button/on the bottom status bar/
[13:54] <Jazzva> asac, yes...
[13:54] <Jazzva> at least we have the packaging :)
[13:54] <gandi> I must say I don't understand that element and I will have hard time to defend it. I believe UI should be clean and sane and not display even a single bit of info more than absolutely needed
[13:54] <gandi> and I don't think that info about alternatives for plugins is very useful
[13:54] <gandi> if he can view the website, he's done
[13:54] <gandi> ok, let's skip that part
[13:55] <gandi> I would like to get a comparsion of mconnors idea with yours
[13:55] <asac> gandi: fair enough.
[13:55] <gandi> especially in the part of what's better in yours
[13:55] <gandi> to lobby among others
[13:55] <asac> gandi: he doesnt want to improve plugins management
[13:55] <gandi> it seems he want - he said he wants to replace pfs with a website
[13:55] <gandi> that will display a list of choices for given mimetype
[13:55] <gandi> right?
[13:56] <asac> gandi: yes. but managing plugins isnt really possible there.
[13:56] <asac> e.g. like what i described in plugins management
[13:56] <asac> select installed alternatives or trigger search for additional alternatives for each mime-type
[13:57] <gandi> can you write it in addition to that text pls?
[13:57] <asac> gandi: there is no text available from mconnor outlining his idea
[13:57] <asac> so i cannot refer to anything
[13:58] <gandi> right
[13:58] <gandi> ok
[13:58] <asac> the difference is: install plugins from website
[13:58] <gandi> then post yours
[13:58] <asac> or mange them in UI
[13:58] <gandi> and I'll ask mconnor for comment
[13:58] <asac> the rest is religion
[13:58] <gandi> right
[13:58] <asac> imo everyone should see that managing plugins like described there is a better user-experience
[13:58] <gandi> the important piece of your idea is how it improves the life of linux vendors
[13:58] <gandi> because I want to lobby it among linux vendors ;)
[13:59] <asac> gandi: no. it also improves life for windows users. as we get a "per-mime-type" plugins management
[13:59] <gandi> yea, but I will not lobby it among windows vendors ;p
[13:59] <asac> hehe
[13:59] <asac> sure
[13:59] <gandi> microsoft is out of scope ;)
[13:59] <gandi> ok, so please, post it in the bug
[13:59] <gandi> and I'll do the first round of lobbying
[13:59] <asac> ok. I will remove the last paragraph
[14:00] <jcastro> asac: are you handling webkit for intrepid or is that someone else?
[14:00] <gandi> you don't have to. I just think that the last proposition is very much against the usability
[14:00] <asac> jcastro: Jazzva was doing it. though it seb's point of view was a bit unclear
[14:01] <jcastro> asac: Oops, I meant to ask you as in "mozilla-team"
[14:01] <asac> gandi: well. i dont want to raise "debatable things" to give others an attach vector
[14:01] <gandi> you expose very technical information at the very exposed position very often for a task that will be useful for minority once per their installation phase
[14:01] <gandi> right
[14:03] <Jazzva> asac, jcastro: webkit has been approved by pitti afaik
[14:03] <jcastro> Jazzva: I was just trying to find out who packaged it, and to ask that person if they're doing the pywebkit bindings as well
[14:03] <jcastro> so I guess that's you? :)
[14:03] <Jazzva> and I think someone told me that he will do epiphany-webkit...
[14:04] <Jazzva> jcastro, nope, wasn't me :)
[14:04] <jcastro> k, thanks, I'll ask pitti next time I see him
[14:04] <Jazzva> asac and I just prepared the MIR for webkit
[14:04] <fta> i thought mike from debian was doing that
[14:04] <asac> fta: he does that in debian. but we need to take care on our own here
[14:05] <asac> fta: for instance debian is stuck with old gnome now
[14:05] <asac> and they are frozen ;)
[14:05] <asac> so we have to move ahead
[14:05] <asac> 1) webkit + 2) gnome ;)
[14:05] <jcastro> reason I ask is that conduit just asked pywebkit for a release tarball so he can do some stuff wwith it during this cycle
[14:05] <asac> jcastro: huats is doing that
[14:06] <jcastro> and I thought it'd be nice to have the bindings already in for intrepid
[14:06] <asac> he just asked me today if i would review his package for the python bindings as soon as he has finished that package
[14:06] <jcastro> asac: thanks
[14:06] <asac> i said: "fine".
[14:06] <jcastro> oh, excellent, thanks
[14:06] <asac> jcastro: i guess he will have a package available in the next days
[14:06] <asac> not sure for alpha-4 though
[14:07] <asac> gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35513/
[14:07] <jcastro> asac: I don't care so much for the alpha, "Eventually in intrepid" is good enough for me. :)
[14:08] <asac> jcastro: then rest still ;) ... apparently there will be python bindings
[14:08] <gandi> asac: I miss info about that you will be offered combined channel (??) from PFS data and data from vendor package system
[14:08] <fta> ... but don't hold your breath
[14:09] <gandi> and how it's going to support installation of plugins as packages?
[14:09] <asac> gandi: thats not a user-experience thing. IMO, that should be discussed at the "implementation" level
[14:09] <gandi> plus in case of plugins management, looking at Preferences->Application tab does not help me understand the UI for comboboxes I think
[14:09] <gandi> asac: but isn't it crucial for this?
[14:09] <gandi> also I disagree
[14:09] <gandi> it's not about UI for Firefox
[14:10] <gandi> but it's about user experience
[14:10] <gandi> for linux users
[14:10] <asac> ok
[14:10] <asac> what is unclear about the comboboxes?
[14:10] <gandi> who'll choose the plugin and see package manager window installing the pacakge right?
[14:11] <gandi> asac: not sure. Maybe notify that you just want the second column to be made of combo boxes (or drop-down lists?) to switch plugin player?
[14:12] <asac> gandi: i just want it to be the same as its in application. just that the right-hand thing has the options i outlined in the text
[14:12] <asac> so better call it "drop-down list"
[14:13] <asac> i open to any change that makes this more clear for mozillas. I just dont want to paint a mock-up ;)
[14:13] <asac> as its already there
[14:13] <gandi> ok
[14:13] <asac> gandi: so how to change the text (suggestions welcome)
[14:13] <gandi> so I would add a section describing the big change in the source of packages
[14:13] <gandi> that would combine the data (or replace it?) between pfs and package management system
[14:14] <gandi> so that vendor can plug their plugin package system
[14:14] <gandi> and allow user to instal plugins as packages
[14:14] <asac> gandi: right
[14:14] <gandi> that would raise consistency
[14:14] <gandi> and allow for better OS management
[14:14] <gandi> question is what happens when user has no admin rights?
[14:24] <asac> gandi: in the end the user would get an authentication box to escalate his privileges
[14:24] <asac> gandi: when he hits install
[14:24] <asac> gandi: if the user is in the admin group he can use his own credentials. otherwise he needs to know the credentials of an admin user
[14:25] <asac> gandi: thats something that is done by distro tools and shouldnt matter much for the firefox UI imo
[14:25] <gandi> and if he doesn't he will not be able to install the plugin or will he fallback to default method?
[14:25] <asac> gandi: that depends on the distro backend imo.
[14:25] <gandi> ok
[14:26] <asac> gandi: the distro backend could provide an option to install to profile
[14:26] <asac> gandi: do you run ubuntu?
[14:26] <asac> i could show you how other dialog do that
[14:26] <gandi> not at the very moment
[14:27] <gandi> I have ubuntu on my machine
[14:27] <gandi> wait
[14:27] <gandi> I have 8.10 in virtualbox
[14:27] <asac> gandi: good.
[14:27] <asac> open the "user administration" thing
[14:27] <gandi> let me start it
[14:27] <asac> until you "unlock", the operations that require admin rights stay disabled
[14:28] <asac> we could place a similar button in the install dialog
[14:28] <gandi> yea I know
[14:28] <asac> so results that only have a "global" install method, dont get displayed or are greyed out until you unlocked
[14:28] <gandi> I do care if mconnors approach has any better solution for users without admin privileges
[14:28] <asac> better than the "unlock" approach? most likely not
[14:29] <gandi> go to macromedia.com website, download zip package and install it into your profile?
[14:30] <asac> gandi: how does his approach know what to suggest to the user?
[14:31] <asac> if he just displays two ways: "install globally" + "install to profile" we can certainly do that as well
[14:32] <gandi> yea, I don't know
[14:32] <gandi> I'm trying to think ahead
[14:33] <asac> sure. i think his solution is either: "vendor installer has to be smart" ... or: "user has to decide on its own"
[14:33] <asac> i think our approach can at least to the same
[14:33] <asac> for instance: apturl could auto-fallback and install plugin in profile if user cannot/does not want to unlock
[14:34] <asac> - that would be equivalent to "vendor installer has to be smart"
[14:35] <asac> or: we provide a "Global Install ..." button +  a "Profile Install ..." button
[14:35] <asac> which would be equivalent to the "user has to decide approach"
[14:35] <gandi> can we just fall back to this in case global install failes?
[14:35] <asac> we could improve that by disabling "Global Install ..." until the user properly "Unlocks"
[14:36] <asac> gandi: yes. as long as the "install method" support "profile install ..." we can fallback
[14:36] <asac> gandi: i would like to implement that for .debs
[14:37] <asac> so the debian/ubuntu backend would have it
[14:37] <gandi> cool
[14:37] <gandi> can you write it down
[14:37] <gandi> as a section in your design doc
[14:37] <gandi> and attach to the bug
[14:37] <gandi> ?
[14:38] <gandi> then I'll ask mconnor for feedback
[14:38] <gandi> and reed
[14:38] <XioNoX> and about updates ?
[14:38] <gandi> and others
[14:39] <XioNoX> if the plugin is installed system wide, and an update is aviable, the user will install it in his profile, no ?
[14:40] <XioNoX> so there will be differents versions of the same plugins, it cant be conflict sources ?
[14:40] <asac> XioNoX: ? if the user installs plugin system wide through apt he will be automatically upgraded through the ubuntu packaging system
[14:41] <XioNoX> ok, but if there are many users who use the PC, and only 1 who have admin roghts
[14:41] <XioNoX> err rights
[14:42] <asac> well. i dont see a way to prevent users from installing their own plugin
[14:43] <XioNoX> something like disabling the updates of system wide installed plugin for non admin users
[14:44] <XioNoX> like you do for firefox
[14:44] <asac> XioNoX: thats a separate feature i think
[14:44] <asac> we already have system wide plugins
[14:44] <asac> in firefox
[14:45] <asac> so if that feature doesnt exist yet, its a separate enhancement imo
[14:45] <XioNoX> ok
[14:51] <asac> gandi: i really dont think we should try to address all arguments in advance. better follow up once there is concrete critizism
[14:52] <gandi> yes, but if you wont add this section noone will know this adventage of this proposal :)
[15:07] <asac> gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35532/
[15:10] <asac> gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/ <-- sorry, this is the one
[15:11] <gandi> great
[15:11] <gandi> !
[15:11] <gandi> go-ahead from me
[15:12] <asac> gandi: there are lots of fine things that can be improved, but lets start discussion first.
[15:12] <asac> [reed]: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/
[15:12] <gandi> yea
[15:12] <asac> can you look at that and if you have some initial suggestsions let me know
[15:12] <asac> if you sign that off I will post it to bug
[15:13] <asac> gandi: if [reed] doesnt give input today, I will jsut go ahead
[15:13] <asac> gandi: actually i have a great idea how to manage plugins for "current site"
[15:14] <asac> gandi: instead of changing UI of main window we could add a check-box in the "Manage Plugins" tab, that reads "filter by content used on current site"
[15:15] <asac> so if the user wants to look for alternatives of the currently used mime-type he would go to "plugins" tab and click that checkbox
[15:15] <asac> then would just have three entries there, for which he can select alternatives
[15:15] <asac> but well. thats fine tuning imo
[15:25] <asac> last version: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35546/
[15:25] <asac> (just for me so i have the link ;))
[16:14] <[reed]> asac: reading
[16:15] <[reed]> asac: looks pretty good
[16:15] <[reed]> asac: has beltzner / madhava / Boriss / faaborg checked it out?
[16:18] <asac> [reed]: no. i wanted you to prove read it and will now submit it to the bug
[16:18] <asac> mozilla bug 449188
[16:18] <asac> then we can start discussing this
[16:22] <asac> ok submitted
[16:22] <asac> gandi: ^^
[16:22] <[reed]> asac: it has some spelling/grammar mistakes, but it's readable, nonetheless
[16:22] <asac> too bad ;)
[16:22] <[reed]> so, it's fine
[16:22] <asac> err, too late :-D
[16:22] <[reed]> yeah, sorry... was fixing the netsplit on moznet
[16:23] <gandi> asac: cool
[16:23] <gandi> asac: thanks!
[16:27] <asac> *sigh* launchpad is against at its very slowest :(
[16:42] <bfiller_> asac: how do I turn off bookmarks toolbar by default? Looks like it's stored in localstore.rdf in users profile
[16:43] <asac> slangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;)
[16:43] <asac> ups
[16:43] <bfiller_> asac: looking at source I see /mozilla/browser/locales/en-US/profile/localstore.rdf but it's empty for the most part. Do I add it in there and rebuild?
[16:45] <gandi> [reed]: caillion?
[16:46] <gandi> [reed]: other vendors to CC to that bug?
[16:46] <[reed]> yeah
[16:46] <[reed]> my Firefox just crashed, though
[16:46] <gandi> impossible
[16:46] <gandi> never happened to me
[16:50] <asac> gandi: blizzard, caillon
[16:51] <sebner> asac: nm 0.7 is just crazy xD
[16:53] <asac> sebner: like in "awesome" or "incomprehensible" ?
[16:54] <sebner> asac: both xD
[17:06] <Jazzva> off... seems it's gonna be a big storm...
[17:06] <Jazzva> see you later
[17:41] <bfiller_> asac: figured it out, you need to modify browser.xul and add "collapsed=true" to the PersonalToolbar section
[17:41] <asac> bfiller_: cant you use a .css file that is shipped in the extension?
[17:42] <asac> will the toolbar also disappear from View ?
[17:42] <bfiller_> asac: i haven't tried going the .css route, sound like that would be easier (wouldn't have to rebuild ff)
[17:43] <bfiller_> asac: toolbar still in View menu, just unchecked by default
[17:44] <armin76> bumb
[17:44] <armin76> bumb asac!
[17:45] <asac> bfiller_: does the element in browser have collapsed=false in the original .xul?
[17:45] <bfiller_> asac: no, it doesn't have the attribute at all
[17:45] <asac> bfiller_: otherwise i'd suggest to try to overlay that element from the extension
[17:45] <asac> look http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XUL_Tutorial:Overlays
[17:46] <asac> bfiller_: look for "Let's change the help menu in this manner. "
[17:46] <asac> which is the example that _adds_ attributes through an overlay
[17:46] <bfiller_> asac: i'll take a look, thanks
[17:47] <asac> bfiller_: if that element doesnt have an id=... it might be a bit difficult to match it in a unique fashion
[17:47] <asac> if it has an id=... it should work
[17:47] <asac> easily
[17:48] <bfiller_> asac:  it does have an id <toolbar id="PersonalToolbar"...>
[17:49] <asac> bfiller_: should work then
[17:50] <bfiller_> asac: cool
[17:50] <asac> bfiller_: in worst case you can do removeelement="true" and just add the line like you want in that overlay ;)
[17:50] <asac> bfiller_: is all on that tutorial page
[17:52] <asac> if you have probs just ask ... ill be out for a while now though.
[17:52] <asac> ;)
[17:52] <asac> dinner and shopping and so on
[20:21] <jcastro> asac: awake?
[20:25] <fta> [18:52] <asac> dinner and shopping and so on