=== HardyOne is now known as IdleOne [05:51] asac: could you please direct that someone to channel #mbca [09:16] hi! [09:25] * gnomefreak wants to be able to type :( i type way too slow now [10:55] did Mozilla drop chatzilla or just made it its own package? [10:56] Mozilla made package "Snow" that is a chat client/messaging client [10:56] seems its an extension [10:57] gnomefreak: yes: snowl [10:57] its a messaging extension for browser [10:57] Jazzva: ^^ [10:57] ;) [10:57] package! [10:57] ;) [10:57] its experimental [10:58] but looks pretty good [11:06] gnomefreak: yep [11:06] gnomefreak: is there an official "preview" version out there somewhere? [11:07] yes let me get you site [11:07] asac: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-snowl/ [11:08] doesnt look like it does IRC [11:10] asac: Warning: the initial prototype is a primitive implementation with many bugs, and subsequent versions will include changes that break functionality and delete all your messages, making you start over from scratch. [11:10] brb smoke [11:11] yeah [11:11] thought so [11:26] tar doesnt use -z or its not working [11:26] its still in --help [11:27] ah it cant be at the end of - like xfzv [11:32] gnash keeps craashing [11:55] gnomefreak: intrepid? [11:55] which version? [12:03] asac: intrepid 0.8.2-0ubuntu3 [12:03] im gonna go finish eating [12:36] asac, snowl is the name? [12:37] yes [12:37] gnomefreak, have you seen the report for july? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Extensions/ReportJuly08 [12:37] Jazzva: i wouldnt start on it at this time [12:37] Feel free to improve it [12:37] yes i havent gotten around to it since i hurt my wrist somehing awful [12:37] i think i fixedd typo [12:37] ouch :(... sorry to hear that [12:38] when will your wrist get better? [12:38] Jazzva: its ok hurts and looking at 10 weeks in this damn splint [12:38] one dr said 2 weeks but my neorologist said 10 [12:38] damn :( [12:39] its called radial nerve palsey [12:40] mhm... i'll see at the wiki, if it has anything on it [12:40] ok ill be back i got to try to shower so i can make it to my meeting with physical theropey [12:40] ok... good luck [12:40] Jazzva: sevearl months is what i saw but i dont know [12:40] ok later guys [12:41] see you later [13:17] asac: ping [13:37] gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35503/ [13:39] gandi: tell me whats unclear, so i can improve before submitting to bugzilla [13:39] ok [13:41] asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35505/ [13:41] I got those errors [13:42] Jazzva: whats at those lines? [13:42] e.g. lists.js 37 [13:42] and service.js:46 [13:42] asac: the last part sounds to me like if you want the notification to appear everytime a user opens a website with a plugin that has alternatives [13:43] asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35507/ for list.js [13:43] the first line in paste is line 37 [13:44] asac, http://paste.ubuntu.com/35508/ [13:44] line 46 is "Cu.import("resource://snowl/modules/datastore.js");" [13:45] Jazzva: where are those? [13:45] are those files included in xpi? [13:45] yep [13:45] datastore.js is in modules/ [13:46] I can read it from fx by opening that uri [13:47] also, I'm able to open service.js [13:49] Jazzva: does the same happen when you install the .xpi? [13:49] e.g. manually in your profile? [13:49] let's see.. [13:49] gandi: in the end thats true. i am not sure where to display it though [13:49] it could be a icon in the status bar (bottom) [13:50] or something floating on top, which the user can turn off [13:50] i think having a icon on the bottom would be the least intrusive thing. [13:51] asac: you want to attack a user with information about gnash EVERY TIME he visits a website with flash??? [13:51] even when he has flash already installed? [13:51] gnomefreak: err. i dont want to attach him ;) [13:51] sounds extremely offensive against the user to me [13:51] gandi: [13:51] gandi: well. i think you are right. thats why i say, display a small icon in the bottom (unintrusive) [13:51] still [13:51] you want to change the UI [13:52] to let the user know that he can change the plugin... [13:52] if the user clicks on it, the plugins management opens for the mime-types on that site [13:52] I can hardly imagine this being anything but disturbing [13:52] users open several hundred websites daily [13:52] 99% of them has flash [13:52] gandi: its a "manage" plugins button [13:52] gandi: when there is no alternative, the user doesnt get that suggestion [13:52] so on windows nothing changes ;) [13:52] I cannot imagine a use in showing a user several hundred times per day that we have an alternative for him [13:53] asac: but on linux you want to give user additional "information" all the time [13:53] gandi: its a "manage plugins on this site" button in the button [13:53] what's the reason? [13:54] s/in the button/on the bottom status bar/ [13:54] asac, yes... [13:54] at least we have the packaging :) [13:54] I must say I don't understand that element and I will have hard time to defend it. I believe UI should be clean and sane and not display even a single bit of info more than absolutely needed [13:54] and I don't think that info about alternatives for plugins is very useful [13:54] if he can view the website, he's done [13:54] ok, let's skip that part [13:55] I would like to get a comparsion of mconnors idea with yours [13:55] gandi: fair enough. [13:55] especially in the part of what's better in yours [13:55] to lobby among others [13:55] gandi: he doesnt want to improve plugins management [13:55] it seems he want - he said he wants to replace pfs with a website [13:55] that will display a list of choices for given mimetype [13:55] right? [13:56] gandi: yes. but managing plugins isnt really possible there. [13:56] e.g. like what i described in plugins management [13:56] select installed alternatives or trigger search for additional alternatives for each mime-type [13:57] can you write it in addition to that text pls? [13:57] gandi: there is no text available from mconnor outlining his idea [13:57] so i cannot refer to anything [13:58] right [13:58] ok [13:58] the difference is: install plugins from website [13:58] then post yours [13:58] or mange them in UI [13:58] and I'll ask mconnor for comment [13:58] the rest is religion [13:58] right [13:58] imo everyone should see that managing plugins like described there is a better user-experience [13:58] the important piece of your idea is how it improves the life of linux vendors [13:58] because I want to lobby it among linux vendors ;) [13:59] gandi: no. it also improves life for windows users. as we get a "per-mime-type" plugins management [13:59] yea, but I will not lobby it among windows vendors ;p [13:59] hehe [13:59] sure [13:59] microsoft is out of scope ;) [13:59] ok, so please, post it in the bug [13:59] and I'll do the first round of lobbying [13:59] ok. I will remove the last paragraph [14:00] asac: are you handling webkit for intrepid or is that someone else? [14:00] you don't have to. I just think that the last proposition is very much against the usability [14:00] jcastro: Jazzva was doing it. though it seb's point of view was a bit unclear [14:01] asac: Oops, I meant to ask you as in "mozilla-team" [14:01] gandi: well. i dont want to raise "debatable things" to give others an attach vector [14:01] you expose very technical information at the very exposed position very often for a task that will be useful for minority once per their installation phase [14:01] right [14:03] asac, jcastro: webkit has been approved by pitti afaik [14:03] Jazzva: I was just trying to find out who packaged it, and to ask that person if they're doing the pywebkit bindings as well [14:03] so I guess that's you? :) [14:03] and I think someone told me that he will do epiphany-webkit... [14:04] jcastro, nope, wasn't me :) [14:04] k, thanks, I'll ask pitti next time I see him [14:04] asac and I just prepared the MIR for webkit [14:04] i thought mike from debian was doing that [14:04] fta: he does that in debian. but we need to take care on our own here [14:05] fta: for instance debian is stuck with old gnome now [14:05] and they are frozen ;) [14:05] so we have to move ahead [14:05] 1) webkit + 2) gnome ;) [14:05] reason I ask is that conduit just asked pywebkit for a release tarball so he can do some stuff wwith it during this cycle [14:05] jcastro: huats is doing that [14:06] and I thought it'd be nice to have the bindings already in for intrepid [14:06] he just asked me today if i would review his package for the python bindings as soon as he has finished that package [14:06] asac: thanks [14:06] i said: "fine". [14:06] oh, excellent, thanks [14:06] jcastro: i guess he will have a package available in the next days [14:06] not sure for alpha-4 though [14:07] gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35513/ [14:07] asac: I don't care so much for the alpha, "Eventually in intrepid" is good enough for me. :) [14:08] jcastro: then rest still ;) ... apparently there will be python bindings [14:08] asac: I miss info about that you will be offered combined channel (??) from PFS data and data from vendor package system [14:08] ... but don't hold your breath [14:09] and how it's going to support installation of plugins as packages? [14:09] gandi: thats not a user-experience thing. IMO, that should be discussed at the "implementation" level [14:09] plus in case of plugins management, looking at Preferences->Application tab does not help me understand the UI for comboboxes I think [14:09] asac: but isn't it crucial for this? [14:09] also I disagree [14:09] it's not about UI for Firefox [14:10] but it's about user experience [14:10] for linux users [14:10] ok [14:10] what is unclear about the comboboxes? [14:10] who'll choose the plugin and see package manager window installing the pacakge right? [14:11] asac: not sure. Maybe notify that you just want the second column to be made of combo boxes (or drop-down lists?) to switch plugin player? [14:12] gandi: i just want it to be the same as its in application. just that the right-hand thing has the options i outlined in the text [14:12] so better call it "drop-down list" [14:13] i open to any change that makes this more clear for mozillas. I just dont want to paint a mock-up ;) [14:13] as its already there [14:13] ok [14:13] gandi: so how to change the text (suggestions welcome) [14:13] so I would add a section describing the big change in the source of packages [14:13] that would combine the data (or replace it?) between pfs and package management system [14:14] so that vendor can plug their plugin package system [14:14] and allow user to instal plugins as packages [14:14] gandi: right [14:14] that would raise consistency [14:14] and allow for better OS management [14:14] question is what happens when user has no admin rights? [14:24] gandi: in the end the user would get an authentication box to escalate his privileges [14:24] gandi: when he hits install [14:24] gandi: if the user is in the admin group he can use his own credentials. otherwise he needs to know the credentials of an admin user [14:25] gandi: thats something that is done by distro tools and shouldnt matter much for the firefox UI imo [14:25] and if he doesn't he will not be able to install the plugin or will he fallback to default method? [14:25] gandi: that depends on the distro backend imo. [14:25] ok [14:26] gandi: the distro backend could provide an option to install to profile [14:26] gandi: do you run ubuntu? [14:26] i could show you how other dialog do that [14:26] not at the very moment [14:27] I have ubuntu on my machine [14:27] wait [14:27] I have 8.10 in virtualbox [14:27] gandi: good. [14:27] open the "user administration" thing [14:27] let me start it [14:27] until you "unlock", the operations that require admin rights stay disabled [14:28] we could place a similar button in the install dialog [14:28] yea I know [14:28] so results that only have a "global" install method, dont get displayed or are greyed out until you unlocked [14:28] I do care if mconnors approach has any better solution for users without admin privileges [14:28] better than the "unlock" approach? most likely not [14:29] go to macromedia.com website, download zip package and install it into your profile? [14:30] gandi: how does his approach know what to suggest to the user? [14:31] if he just displays two ways: "install globally" + "install to profile" we can certainly do that as well [14:32] yea, I don't know [14:32] I'm trying to think ahead [14:33] sure. i think his solution is either: "vendor installer has to be smart" ... or: "user has to decide on its own" [14:33] i think our approach can at least to the same [14:33] for instance: apturl could auto-fallback and install plugin in profile if user cannot/does not want to unlock [14:34] - that would be equivalent to "vendor installer has to be smart" [14:35] or: we provide a "Global Install ..." button + a "Profile Install ..." button [14:35] which would be equivalent to the "user has to decide approach" [14:35] can we just fall back to this in case global install failes? [14:35] we could improve that by disabling "Global Install ..." until the user properly "Unlocks" [14:36] gandi: yes. as long as the "install method" support "profile install ..." we can fallback [14:36] gandi: i would like to implement that for .debs [14:37] so the debian/ubuntu backend would have it [14:37] cool [14:37] can you write it down [14:37] as a section in your design doc [14:37] and attach to the bug [14:37] ? [14:38] then I'll ask mconnor for feedback [14:38] and reed [14:38] and about updates ? [14:38] and others [14:39] if the plugin is installed system wide, and an update is aviable, the user will install it in his profile, no ? [14:40] so there will be differents versions of the same plugins, it cant be conflict sources ? [14:40] XioNoX: ? if the user installs plugin system wide through apt he will be automatically upgraded through the ubuntu packaging system [14:41] ok, but if there are many users who use the PC, and only 1 who have admin roghts [14:41] err rights [14:42] well. i dont see a way to prevent users from installing their own plugin [14:43] something like disabling the updates of system wide installed plugin for non admin users [14:44] like you do for firefox [14:44] XioNoX: thats a separate feature i think [14:44] we already have system wide plugins [14:44] in firefox [14:45] so if that feature doesnt exist yet, its a separate enhancement imo [14:45] ok [14:51] gandi: i really dont think we should try to address all arguments in advance. better follow up once there is concrete critizism [14:52] yes, but if you wont add this section noone will know this adventage of this proposal :) [15:07] gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35532/ [15:10] gandi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/ <-- sorry, this is the one [15:11] great [15:11] ! [15:11] go-ahead from me [15:12] gandi: there are lots of fine things that can be improved, but lets start discussion first. [15:12] [reed]: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35533/ [15:12] yea [15:12] can you look at that and if you have some initial suggestsions let me know [15:12] if you sign that off I will post it to bug [15:13] gandi: if [reed] doesnt give input today, I will jsut go ahead [15:13] gandi: actually i have a great idea how to manage plugins for "current site" [15:14] gandi: instead of changing UI of main window we could add a check-box in the "Manage Plugins" tab, that reads "filter by content used on current site" [15:15] so if the user wants to look for alternatives of the currently used mime-type he would go to "plugins" tab and click that checkbox [15:15] then would just have three entries there, for which he can select alternatives [15:15] but well. thats fine tuning imo [15:25] last version: http://paste.ubuntu.com/35546/ [15:25] (just for me so i have the link ;)) [16:14] <[reed]> asac: reading [16:15] <[reed]> asac: looks pretty good [16:15] <[reed]> asac: has beltzner / madhava / Boriss / faaborg checked it out? [16:18] [reed]: no. i wanted you to prove read it and will now submit it to the bug [16:18] mozilla bug 449188 [16:18] then we can start discussing this [16:18] Mozilla bug 449188 in Plugin Finder Service "improve plugin finder service" [Normal,Assigned] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449188 [16:22] ok submitted [16:22] gandi: ^^ [16:22] <[reed]> asac: it has some spelling/grammar mistakes, but it's readable, nonetheless [16:22] too bad ;) [16:22] <[reed]> so, it's fine [16:22] err, too late :-D [16:22] <[reed]> yeah, sorry... was fixing the netsplit on moznet [16:23] asac: cool [16:23] asac: thanks! [16:27] *sigh* launchpad is against at its very slowest :( [16:42] asac: how do I turn off bookmarks toolbar by default? Looks like it's stored in localstore.rdf in users profile [16:43] slangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;) [16:43] ups [16:43] asac: looking at source I see /mozilla/browser/locales/en-US/profile/localstore.rdf but it's empty for the most part. Do I add it in there and rebuild? [16:45] [reed]: caillion? [16:46] [reed]: other vendors to CC to that bug? [16:46] <[reed]> yeah [16:46] <[reed]> my Firefox just crashed, though [16:46] impossible [16:46] never happened to me [16:50] gandi: blizzard, caillon [16:51] asac: nm 0.7 is just crazy xD [16:53] sebner: like in "awesome" or "incomprehensible" ? [16:54] asac: both xD [17:06] off... seems it's gonna be a big storm... [17:06] see you later [17:41] asac: figured it out, you need to modify browser.xul and add "collapsed=true" to the PersonalToolbar section [17:41] bfiller_: cant you use a .css file that is shipped in the extension? [17:42] will the toolbar also disappear from View ? [17:42] asac: i haven't tried going the .css route, sound like that would be easier (wouldn't have to rebuild ff) [17:43] asac: toolbar still in View menu, just unchecked by default [17:44] bumb [17:44] bumb asac! [17:45] bfiller_: does the element in browser have collapsed=false in the original .xul? [17:45] asac: no, it doesn't have the attribute at all [17:45] bfiller_: otherwise i'd suggest to try to overlay that element from the extension [17:45] look http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XUL_Tutorial:Overlays [17:46] bfiller_: look for "Let's change the help menu in this manner. " [17:46] which is the example that _adds_ attributes through an overlay [17:46] asac: i'll take a look, thanks [17:47] bfiller_: if that element doesnt have an id=... it might be a bit difficult to match it in a unique fashion [17:47] if it has an id=... it should work [17:47] easily [17:48] asac: it does have an id [17:49] bfiller_: should work then [17:50] asac: cool [17:50] bfiller_: in worst case you can do removeelement="true" and just add the line like you want in that overlay ;) [17:50] bfiller_: is all on that tutorial page [17:52] if you have probs just ask ... ill be out for a while now though. [17:52] ;) [17:52] dinner and shopping and so on === asac_ is now known as asac [20:21] asac: awake? [20:25] [18:52] dinner and shopping and so on